Equestrian jobs in NZ
andrew3001
On completing college course (equestrian management) my 18yo daughter
found (online) a job as a groom in New Zealand.
On borrowed money she flew out with plans of paying it back and sending
money home to pay for her horse here. The dream job though, has turned
out to be a nightmare. [1]
She left that job, just short of collapse, and found another (also
advertised online in UK). It was all roses and promises for about 3 days
but now the promises have all fallen through and she finds herself
working over 70 hrs in a 7 day week for nothing more than board &
lodging and the promise of pocket money.
She is frightened to tell the employer she wants to leave as he flies
off the handle at the slightest thing and shouts at her like a madman.
There is also a German girl working there who started working at the
same time and she too wants to leave asap. (Tis not just his workers he
shouts at - his partner has already left and returned during the weeks
my daughter has been there.)
Is my daughter's experience typical of equestrian work in NZ or has she
just been unlucky? It is possible the good jobs go by word of mouth and
the bad employers get a reputation in NZ and have to advertise in the UK
to get people?
[1]
* 11 hrs per day translated into 13 to 16 hrs or about 100hhrs in first
week.
* "We'll look after her" translated into making her do a full day while
jet lagged and exhausted after a 35 hr journey, and - .
*Board meant she had to spend a good proportion of the money she had
expected to save, on supplementing meagre rations. (in fact a good
proportion of my money, as she hasn't actually received any wages for
that job yet)
* One sausage roll provided during a 16 hr day with no or negligible breaks.
*Accommodation = miniature mattress with fleas on floor in room shared
with 3 others or freezing in lorry at weekly show.
*Promised regular riding discovered to be fictional.
*Treated "like dirt" - ie lack of normal respect. This was the number 1
problem although the long hours without food or breaks were causing
dizziness and memory loss.
maus
> I'm in UK.
>
> On completing college course (equestrian management) my 18yo daughter
> found (online) a job as a groom in New Zealand.
>
> On borrowed money she flew out with plans of paying it back and sending
> money home to pay for her horse here. The dream job though, has turned
> out to be a nightmare. [1]
>
> She left that job, just short of collapse, and found another (also
> advertised online in UK). It was all roses and promises for about 3 days
> but now the promises have all fallen through and she finds herself
> working over 70 hrs in a 7 day week for nothing more than board &
> lodging and the promise of pocket money.
>
> She is frightened to tell the employer she wants to leave as he flies
> off the handle at the slightest thing and shouts at her like a madman.
> There is also a German girl working there who started working at the
> same time and she too wants to leave asap. (Tis not just his workers he
> shouts at - his partner has already left and returned during the weeks
> my daughter has been there.)
>
> Is my daughter's experience typical of equestrian work in NZ or has she
> just been unlucky? It is possible the good jobs go by word of mouth and
> the bad employers get a reputation in NZ and have to advertise in the UK
> to get people?
>
Far too common an experience, not only NZ, but US and Australia as
well. Probably better known here, as more Irish do the travel thing.
(Even what you would think would be reputable people exploit girls,
as they know girls are horse mad, and _will_ work in s*** jobs for
little money.) There is a racket called apprentiship, children get
pocket money and their keep for working with horses for some years
until they either get sense or some sort of papers. The government
started organizing those youngsters into a course here (R.A.C.E), in
which they attend classes as well, but with the crises, that is under
threat.
Besides that, New Zealanders and Australians work hard, usually
harder than in these islands. What a lot learn out there, usually
`townies' from here, is hard work. I don't know how many I know that
went to do a year in Australasia, come back changed people, and did
well here after.
Unneeded horse are a glut here, costs 200-300 euros to get them put down
and corpses disposed of, and many are just abandoned. Not unknown for
someone to hire a farm, put down a deposit, put in horses and disappear.
(Chips?.. These are not those sort of horses).
Very Sad.
--
greymaus
.
..
...
Jane Gillett
maus <grey...@mail.com> wrote:
> Besides that, New Zealanders and Australians work hard, usually
> harder than in these islands. What a lot learn out there, usually
> `townies' from here, is hard work. I don't know how many I know that
> went to do a year in Australasia, come back changed people, and did
> well here after.
A man I met in the seventies - emigrated to Australia, came back to make a
life in Britain with his family then returned to Australia after a few
years. He said he was not allowed to work hard enough in Britain to earn
the money to give his family the life he wanted to.
Jane
--
Jane G : j.gi...@higherstert.co.uk : S Devon
andrew3001
> In article<8jr12i...@mid.individual.net>, andrew3001
> <andre...@ymail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm in UK.
>>
>> On completing college course (equestrian management) my 18yo daughter
>> found (online) a job as a groom in New Zealand.
>
Hi, Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply.
>
> Forgive me for skepticism, hope you understand that much of what is in
> usenet is open to suspicion. This story of yours seems far-fetched,
> difficult to imagine. But not impossible.
>
> On the other hand, if it's genuine, then I am saddened to read it.
It is very sad - but if she survives, probably a useful experience and
viewed in retrospect through rose coloured spectacles, might even have
silver linings.
> I can't easily swallow that a person in UK secured a groom's job then
> gained permission to come here to take up the position. Groomsmanship
> is not a skilled job, I'm sure you understand it's a job that anyone
> can do.
I'd disagree here. Handling a horse takes experience. My daughter is
currently working with stud stallions worth as much as a house - so
looking after them is not a job for the inexperienced. Even leading a
horse is a scary experience and could go badly wrong for the inexperienced.
>I'm surprised even to read that there is a college course for
> it.
Take a look at www.massey.ac.nz and put "equine" in the search box.
or for the UK try:
http://www.google.com/search?q=equine+management+course&hl=en
>
> New Zealand welcomes people that fit into one or more of a variety of
> categories. Most have to do with a skill-set that is in demand. I doubt
> that being a groom is a category with a shortfall. > But I could be wrong
> and I'm sure you'll put me in my place if I am wrong.
No I'd guess you are right. I've looked online for job ads in NZ and
there are only a few equine jobs to be found - and quite a few people
wanting to work for nothing to get riding experience.
In the UK we have many unemployed - and yet certain categories of posts
are impossible to fill with natives - and attract foreigners who are
willing to work harder and for less and possibly are less likely to know
their rights. I imagine NZ is the same?
>
> Typical categories that attract migration enquiries include such things
> as: doctor, nurse, teacher, tradesman. Or a spouse of a New Zealander.
> Or a person willing to invest half a million dollars in a new business.
>
>>
>> On borrowed money
>
> Dangerous at any time
I agree, but not quite so bad if borrowed from a foolish indulgent Dad
though.
I think working abroad like this is likely to be much more valuable to
her than the degree course she plans to do next - even if it does not
work out as expected.
>
>
>> she flew out with plans of paying it back and sending
>> money home to pay for her horse here. The dream job though, has turned
>> out to be a nightmare. [1]
>
> Are you saying she obtained a residence visa and a work permit? Or did
> she arrive as a tourist then commence work as an illegal immigrant?
I spoke to the first employer and they expected her to go out on a
visitors visa and work for cash. They said they didn't bother with that
tax nonsense - or something to that effect.
My daughter did apply for a Working Holiday Work Permit
at
and is traveling with that.
>
>
>>
>> She left that job, just short of collapse, and found another (also
>> advertised online in UK)
>
> Sorry but I really can't imagine any horse owner needing to advertise
> in UK for staff. There is an unemployment problem here. Tens of
> thousands of out-of-work animal lovers must surely be eager for a job
> like this.
Here is a list of NZ jobs advertised in the UK:
http://www.yardandgroom.com/jobs/jobs.aspx?country=NZ
You will see that many require the skill of riding - which takes years
to learn well.
I wonder how many of the (mainly) girls who go out find the job meets
expectations.
>
> There is much more unemployment then usual here. New Zealand was hit
> hard by the global financial crisis that started when Lehman Brothers
> filed for bankruptcy. At least fifty financial institutions have
> collapsed here in the last couple of years, with depositors,
> shareholders and investors losing billions of dollars. It's been a
> nightmare and the county is still not out of the woods.
>
> Thus, it is extremely foolish to be an illegal worker here.
against the first employers suggestion, she successfully applied for a
Working Holiday Work Permit so is legit.
>And, as I
> say, horse grooming is not a contributor to the gross domestic product.
The farm she is now is a stud farm which exports I'm not sure what - but
eggs, embryos or semen I suppose. The first farm bred and sold "Sports
horses". I don't know if they are exported or not but I imagined so.
>
>
>
>> . It was all roses and promises for about 3 days
>> but now the promises have all fallen through and she finds herself
>> working over 70 hrs in a 7 day week for nothing more than board&
>> lodging and the promise of pocket money.
>
> If this is true, then she must immediately report to the Department of
> Labour. Inspectors will investigate and prosecute.
Thanks for the link you provide. I'll give her a phone number.
>
>
>>
>> She is frightened to tell the employer she wants to leave as he flies
>> off the handle at the slightest thing and shouts at her like a madman.
>
> Then she should also report to the police.
I've been on the point of this and have provided her with the local
police number, but must work with her. As you might imagine she has very
little time and energy for anything. At the low points she is not in a
fit state for me to arrange a taxi to the airport. The 30 hr journey is
gruelling even with a good start. I'm currently looking at local B&Bs
hoping to find one that will pick her up and let her recuperate before
the journey home.
>
>
>
>> There is also a German girl working there who started working at the
>> same time and she too wants to leave asap. (Tis not just his workers he
>> shouts at - his partner has already left and returned during the weeks
>> my daughter has been there.)
>>
>> Is my daughter's experience typical of equestrian work in NZ
>
> Of course not!
If you could put me in touch with a good employer with a vacancy, I'd be
extremely grateful. It seems a shame for her to turn tail and come home
at this stage and I think that after a period of recovery she might be
persuaded to face a third go at it.
>
>> or has she
>> just been unlucky?
>
> Unlucky? I don't think so. If this story is not a silly fantasy, then
> your daughter has some characteristic that turns her into a semi-pro
> victim. No ordinary employee would experience all this misery.
It was difficult to stay at the first job a week, but she didn't want to
be accused of giving in too easily. The second job was fine at the start
- a "honeymoon" period it seems but has severely degenerated since then
and now she has decided to leave, but with her massive amount of
baggage, fatigue, friendship with the girl she works with and knowledge
that the employer will go beserk when she tells him etc etc it is not as
simple as you might imagine. There is also the point that she badly
wanted this second attempt to work out.
>Of
> course I can't accuse you of posting a fantasy. And of course I can't
> allege that your daughter has, somehow, brought all this on herself by
> some non-mainstream behaviour. But something doesn't make sense. It
> would be extraordinary for a person to live through all this yet not
> report to the authorities.
It is not all bad. I imagine that much of the time she is happy to be
with horses and to be seeing something of New Zealand - and to be away
from the UK Winter! It was great at the new place for the first few days
until the climate changed. Remember though that typically a girl in her
position would have no car, be short of funds and have little if any
knowledge of alternatives and possible recourse.
The Work Permit Visa requires funds; If she had she entered on a
visitors visa and worked for cash as suggested by the first employer -
and not had me to send her funds, she'd have been a slave - and I get
the impression that is what they wanted. They actually boasted of having
a swimming pool and tennis court for their workers - a bit of a joke
when the work occupied IRO 100 hrs per week and the girl my daughter
worked with hadn't had a day off for 3 weeks.
>
> How are you in touch with her?
Mobile phone - she has a NZ Vodafone sim which I can top up online. It
is good value for phoning a UK landline.
Is she out in the country-side
> somewhere, with no transport, but able to go online and correspond with
> you? Then send her immediately to the authorities. Or she should be
> encouraged to talk to a local shopkeeper and ask for support.
>
>
>
>> It is possible the good jobs go by word of mouth
>
> Sometimes, yes.
>
>> and
>> the bad employers get a reputation in NZ and have to advertise in the UK
>> to get people?
>
> No. The authorities have the labour market under such well-regulated
> control that bad employers are prosecuted and are shunned by their
> peers.
>
> Occasionally, we hear about "bad employers" through the press or
> television. They are usually brothel-keepers (prostitution is legal
> here) and they seem to get into the habit of paying to fly recruited
> girls from overseas, then they try to hold the girl's passport until
> the "debt" has been paid off. This is illegal.
>
> Seasonal fruit-pickers and similar, are in the same category. But these
> experiences are rare because the girls are here illegally and not
> supposed to accept employment. If they are caught, they are sent home.
>
> Again, if this story is true, it's very sad. You should immediately
> send money to your daughter and tell her to fly home to you
> immediately. Or get in touch with the authorities to secure compliance
> with the law.
>
> <http://www.dol.govt.nz/>
Thanks for the link.
I suppose you mean their
General Enquiries number of
Telephone +64 4 915 4400
and suppose they could advise.
>
> Please post updates here. If the story is true
It is true - with the caveat that I only hear her side of the story, but
she has told me facts and going by the facts alone it seems to me that
there is a problem - have you read the post by "maus" - perhaps that is
the kernel of it - that, as the ads in NZ I've referred to show, there
are many youngsters practically asking to be exploited and devaluing the
job. Market Rate is fine with me, but attracting people to jobs with
false promises is not and of course terrorizing them is not either.
>and yet you and/or her
> are unable to progress the situation, I would be wiling to discuss the
> situation with the welfare authorities, the police, the Labour
> Department or my lawyer.
could you do anything if she has left the country?
>For that, I would need her contact details
> though and you would probably be unwilling to post those details here.
> If you ask, I will supply an email address that can be used with
> confidence of privacy.
>
> If you post again, i will help.
Thanks for your offer. It is frustrating to be so far away and not able
to sort it out myself. I want to arrange a taxi to the airport, and
think this is likely within the next few days.
Which island are you in?
andrew3001
> Hello again, Andrew. Let's see if we can work together to resolve this
> terrible situation.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> I spoke to the first employer and they expected her to go out on a
>> visitors visa and work for cash. They said they didn't bother with that
>> tax nonsense - or something to that effect.
>
> should report this employer to the Labour Department.
>
>
>>
>> My daughter did apply for a Working Holiday Work Permit
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>>
>> Here is a list of NZ jobs advertised in the UK:
>>
>> http://www.yardandgroom.com/jobs/jobs.aspx?country=NZ
>
>
>
>
>
>> The farm she is now is a stud farm which exports I'm not sure what - but
>> eggs, embryos or semen I suppose.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>> She is frightened to tell the employer she wants to leave as he flies
>>>> off the handle at the slightest thing and shouts at her like a madman.
>>>
>>> Then she should also report to the police.
>>
>>
>> I've been on the point of this and have provided her with the local
>> police number, but must work with her. As you might imagine she has very
>> little time and energy for anything. At the low points she is not in a
>> fit state for me to arrange a taxi to the airport. The 30 hr journey is
>> gruelling even with a good start.
>
>
>
> Paradoxically, because I'm an atheist, I would suggest she contact the
> nearest church.
>
> It's starting to sound to me like what she really needs is (a) a better
> job; if not, a quick return to you and home. More on this later.
>
>
>
>> I'm currently looking at local B&Bs
>> hoping to find one that will pick her up and let her recuperate before
>> the journey home.
>
>
>
>
>> If you could put me in touch with a good employer with a vacancy, I'd be
>> extremely grateful. It seems a shame for her to turn tail and come home
>> at this stage and I think that after a period of recovery she might be
>> persuaded to face a third go at it.
>
>
>
>> The second job was fine at the start
>> - a "honeymoon" period it seems but has severely degenerated since then
>> and now she has decided to leave, but with her massive amount of
>> baggage, fatigue, friendship with the girl she works with and knowledge
>> that the employer will go beserk when she tells him etc etc it is not as
>> simple as you might imagine. There is also the point that she badly
>> wanted this second attempt to work out.
>
> are now talking about:
>
> (a) This asshole employer. When she gets to the point where she must
> tell him goodbye, she should ask for a police offer to be there when
> she gives the news.
>
> (b) Massive amount of baggage. The local church will almost certainly
> help with some sort of transport. That's my guess, anyway.
>
> (c) Fatigue. Yes, there's simply no easy way around this obstacle. What
> she needs, perhaps, is one day's rest before she tells him goodbye.
> Perhaps a phone call to a doctor who will visit, or again the church.
> Somehow she needs to convince her asshole employer that she is sick and
> needs a day's rest. Then, next day, with the cop there, she tells him
> goodbye. "And don't forget my holiday pay".
>
> (d) Friendship. An unfortunate complication. But she must say goodbye.
> Friend might help with transport � a friend of that girl, perhaps.
>
>
>
>>> How are you in touch with her?
>>
>> Mobile phone - she has a NZ Vodafone sim which I can top up online. It
>> is good value for phoning a UK landline.
>
>
> .
>>>
>>> <http://www.dol.govt.nz/>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the link.
>>
>> I suppose you mean their
>>
>> General Enquiries number of
>> Telephone +64 4 915 4400
>
>
> their toll-free number 0800 20 90 20
>
> For you if you want to phone them, it looks like the best number to use
> is +64 (9) 969 2950 The (9) tells us this is an Auckland number.
>
> I am in Auckland.
>
>
>> have you read the post by "maus"
>
>
>
>
>> - perhaps that is
>> the kernel of it - that, as the ads in NZ I've referred to show, there
>> are many youngsters practically asking to be exploited and devaluing the
>> job. Market Rate is fine with me, but attracting people to jobs with
>> false promises is not and of course terrorizing them is not either.
>
>
>
>>> and yet you and/or her
>>> are unable to progress the situation, I would be wiling to discuss the
>>> situation with the welfare authorities, the police, the Labour
>>> Department or my lawyer.
>>
>>
>>
>> could you do anything if she has left the country?
>
> evidence from her, specially if a prosecution were in the works.
>
> But if she is, for example, out of the country and back with you,
> complaints to the authorities are unimportant, I think. Let's forget
> them for now and work on getting your girl either a new job or a trip
> home.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I want to arrange a taxi to the airport, and
>> think this is likely within the next few days.
>
> suggestion. Trip to the airport for $50 donation to the church.
>
>> Which island are you in?
>
>
> Now, let's look at practical ideas:�
>
> First, a new job perhaps. TradeMe has a number of jobs. TradeMe was set
> up by a young kid for two or three thousand dollars. He sold it a year
> or so later to Australia's Fairfax organization for, I think, $750
> million! One of the better success stories. One reason is that the site
> is well-designed. I earn my living on the web and I am always getting
> grumpy with damned fool web designers who rise above their own level of
> competence.
>
> TradeMe is at<http://trademe.co.nz>
>
> Unfortunately, there are only 2 jobs of interest today
>
> <http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/CategoryAttributeSearchResults.aspx?mca
> t=5000-&sidebar=0&140=&selected155=&154=&144=-1&144=-1&142=&153=horse%20
> groom&searchString=horse%20groom&generalSearch_keypresses=11&generalSear
> ch_suggested=0>
>
>
> Oops only one of them is in New Zealand!
>
> <http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-me-jobs/Agriculture-fishing-forestry/Far
> ming/listing-328316282.htm?key=2101380>
>
> It's for only four months. You could phone the advertiser on +64 (21)
> 607 853
>
> Now for the alternative, getting her home to you.
>
> Depending on where she is, she could look in the phone book for a local
> church. Phone and discuss. Then again, depending on where she is will
> decide what the nearest airport is. Maybe you know this already. If
> not, try Google Earth. do you have it already?
>
> I see you're using Linux. I'm on a Mac and the Google Earth site is so
> "helpful" it automatically sends me to the Mac page so I can't give you
> the exact address for a Linux version but start here
> <http://www.google.com/earth/download/ge/>
>
> Once you have it installed, you will be able to see exactly where your
> girl is and where the nearest airport is. Look for little cyan
> pictograms with a stylized plane. Click it to get the three-letter IATA
> code for it then go to (for example) Expedia
>
> <http://www.expedia.co.nz/?EntryUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eexpedia%2Ecom%2Fd
> efault%2Easp&rfrr=>
>
> Use that three-letter code to specify your start point and enter your
> own airport as the end point.
>
> Do her a favour and let her spend a couple of nights in Thailand on the
> way home. I fly often from Auckland to the North (Moscow, Riga,
> Hamburg, Nice). I hate flying so I always stop over in Thailand for a
> while so I can get a proper sleep in a real bed.
>
> It's not expensive. If you want to give her just one night for a sleep,
> she should remain in Bangkok. Stay at KT Guest House
> <http://ktguesthouse.com/> not luxury, not expensive, lovely people.
> Taxis to and from the airport should be around 700 baht. GBP 1 buys THB
> 47.85
>
> If you can afford to be a tad more generous, give her three or more
> nights. Send her to Pattaya. Stay at Centera Beach Hotel (might still
> be known as Nova Lodge by many taxi drivers).
>
> <http://centerabeachhotel.com/en/index.php> Again not expensive. And
> it's absolutely amazing to be only 100 metres from a superb beach!
> Again rooms are nothing special but these two places are priced right
> for my pocket and I love them both.
>
> To get from the airport (BKK) to Pattaya, send email to
> <onth...@ego.co.th> His name is Thayaporn but I don't know if that's
> his first name or family name. I've used him 4 or 5 times over the last
> few years. Not much English but very obliging. About THB 1100 from
> airport to Pattaya. (About 90 to 120 minutes). He will be standing in
> the arrival hall (outside, after Customs and immigration and baggage
> collection) waving a sign with your girls's name on it.
>
> Bangkok airport is very civilized. There are stainless steel barriers
> to stop the unwashed hordes from filling up the public walkways while
> they wait. So she will exit the customs area, walk a few metres then
> turn right, looking for someone standing behind the barrier with that
> sign.
>
> Unfortunately, because he's not an "authorised" taxi, his car will be
> parked way over there somewhere in the public carpark so be prepared to
> push that trolly 200 metres or so.
>
> I usually put most of my lugggae in storage at the airport (requires
> careful pre-planning when packing). The place to leave the luggage is
> on a different level. Better she asks than for me to try to describe
> how to get there.
>
> Ask him to stop at a supermarket. Thailand is very hot all day and all
> night so she will surely want to buy some bottled water for herself and
> for him.
>
> Breakfast at Nova � I mean Centera Beach � is nice and included in the
> price. At KT Guest House it is not so wonderful and it is not included.
> Both have swimming pools.
>
> Thai people are absolutely lovely. Kind, gentle, always looking for a
> polite way to relieve you of your money! There will be a ton of cheap
> stuff for sale, seducing her. She must be aware that much of the
> trinkets are fake. Clothing is dirt cheap and a must to buy.
>
> Getting around in Pattaya is a piece of cake. Look for things that are
> obvious "mini-buses", all chrome and decorations. They're called "baht
> buses". From memory 20 baht for an unlimited distance. Out of the
> hotel, turn right, walk 50 metres to the road, catch one going from
> right to left and get out at "Walking Street" a couple of kilometres
> away. Fantastic experience. Loud and brash at night but totally safe
> even for a shy teen girl on her own. Touts everywhere but they are
> harmless. Also many european volunteer "tourist police" who are always
> very helpful.
>
> If she's out at night alone, Walking street is probably the safest
> place to be. I've never encountered a drunk, aggressive male Thai but
> they do exist. I read about them in the papers
>
> http://pattayamail.com/
>
> http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/
>
> Don't rent a waterjet ski without first examining it very carefully.
> Some of the jokers who rent them make a point of alleging that you
> damaged it and now must pay. If you get trapped in such a circumstance,
> demand that a Tourist Police officer comes to help you defeat this
> common rip-off.
>
> If your girl has led a "sheltered" life, she will need to look the
> other way a lot (or learn to forget her nightmare Kiwi experience and
> just relax, laugh and smile a lot). Pattaya exists for prostitution.
> It's everywhere but it's regulated (even though technically illegal),
> fun-loving and harmless. Well, so I'm told. It's not my thing. I'm
> happily married.
>
> If I were in Thailand just for a quick sleep, I would limit myself to
> sampling one or two Pattaya restaurants, ambling lazily along Walking
> Street and going for a swim. Or, if I were staying in Bangkok, get a
> taxi to take her to Pantip Plaza or Fortune City for a shopping
> experience. Taxi from KT to Fortune is only 60 baht.
>
> Well, I hope these scribbles will turn your girls's experience into
> something a little better than it's been so far.
>
> If you want to engage in some private correspondence, email me at
> <lolovew...@hotmail.com> Remove the obvious bit first.
>
> Good luck, HP
Hi, Thanks again for your interest, time and offer of assistance. A lot
has changed since my first post. To summarise, daughter and the other
girl have left together and are both happy in a hostel where they intend
to relax, recover and plan their next move. I'm delighted daughter is
not traveling alone. On intimating an intention of leaving, after a full
and hard days work, and despite offering to stay on a few days they were
told to collect their bags and dumped at the door of an expensive hostel
in the local small town - with no wages to show for an estimated 250 +
hrs work in the 3 weeek stint with no days off there. Fortunately the
hostel was not full and after a comfy night there, they shared a taxi to
a hostel in Christchurch. (not 30hrs!! -that is the flight home! Sorry
my phrasing was ambiguous)
It seems the taxi-driver, like you, was outraged at their treatment and
has informed them of the various authorities to mention in order to
encourage wage payment. (Including reporting an accident where the other
girl had her foot stood on by a stallion and was suspected broken. She
was allowed a few days off then shouted at for crying due to pain from
her swollen bruised foot when made to work again - and told she was
malingering.)
So my daughter has been in NZ for a month and a half, has worked an
estimated 350 hrs and has not been paid. At the moment she is asking
politely without invoking threat of authorities.
Thanks for looking up a job. After a few days rest, a third job,
equestrian or otherwise, might be sought.
I do have Google Earth but use mainly google maps. I've only recently
discovered you can go to an area and put in a business or trade - eg
taxi, police, church, hostel, B&B and Google maps attempts to show 10
"teardrops" and all the remainder as small red circles - quick,
efficient and easy, and then street view is there ready to use and such
a fantastic resource. I'm also using Stellarium Planetarium - a free
astronomy app which allows me to view a representation of the night sky
over my daughter; Amazing to see the sun in the North and moving the
"wrong" way - ie left to right and to see the different orientation of
the stars - Orions belt is more or less horizontal whereas here it is
more vertical. It fascinates me also to "see" the moon over on the other
side of the world then view it here 12 hrs or so later.
Thanks also for the info on Bankok. She went via Hong Kong and may go
back by Los Angeles so she has gone right round the globe, but your info
is still interesting and might be useful.
The post by "maus" that you missed was to uk.business.agriculture only
Here is what he said:
> Far too common an experience, not only NZ, but US and Australia as
> well. Probably better known here, as more Irish do the travel thing.
> (Even what you would think would be reputable people exploit girls,
> as they know girls are horse mad, and _will_ work in s*** jobs for
> little money.) There is a racket called apprentiship, children get
> pocket money and their keep for working with horses for some years
> until they either get sense or some sort of papers. The government
> started organizing those youngsters into a course here (R.A.C.E), in
> which they attend classes as well, but with the crises, that is under
> threat.
>
>
> Besides that, New Zealanders and Australians work hard, usually
> harder than in these islands. What a lot learn out there, usually
> `townies' from here, is hard work. I don't know how many I know that
> went to do a year in Australasia, come back changed people, and did
> well here after.
>
> Unneeded horse are a glut here, costs 200-300 euros to get them put down
> and corpses disposed of, and many are just abandoned. Not unknown for
> someone to hire a farm, put down a deposit, put in horses and disappear.
> (Chips?.. These are not those sort of horses).
>
> Very Sad.
In general terms and in cynical mode, I am wondering if this is the
normal modus operadi; advertise the job far afield and make is sound
attractive by grossly understating hours and grossly overstating
accommodation, food, remuneration etc. If possible, get the girl there
thinking she has stumbled upon a wonderful opportunity, can trust you
and she doesn't need to bother with work permit or tax.
Once she is there, she will have spent so much getting there that
further travel is a problem, another job without a work permit is also a
problem and don't give them internet so they can't find one anyway.
Employer can either overwork and underpay, keep putting off payment, or
promise to pay in kind and the fail to deliver. Make sure they are so
tired by excessive hours that they have no energy to even think about
alternatives. By the time the victim works out that staying is stupid,
employer has done very well out of the arrangment and there are plenty
of new girls ready to take her place. If the girl doesn't have work
permit she will not complain. If she has no backup she very likely will
not bother, and in cases where she does approach authorities, how can
she prove what she says if employer denies it?
I wonder how I can warn others.
Some keywords perhaps: horse equestrian job abroad, new zealand, gap
year employment scam stud farm live in job bad employer problem abusive
slave labour (no slur on NZ intended - maus points out plenty of other
countries are the same and it may just be the bad scamming employers who
have to advertise abroad)
If you are contemplating an equestrian job in New Zealand (and probably
any far away country) Flying to an instant Summer and a dream job might
encourage wishful thinking so CAUTION.
Suggestions. You won't be the first employee they've had - so first ask
if they've had a foreign worker before, then ask if they'd help you
contact that ex worker so you could speak to them - reasonable enough
surely if they've nothing to hide. (plenty loopholes I know but might
turn up something) It is not much use speaking to a current worker.
Ask lots of questions and get terms in writing, or at least write it
down, read it back and ask them to confirm.
Find them on Google Maps and attempt to phone up a neighbour - eg a
nearby business - B&B perhaps. If they don't know them tell them why you
are ringing and ask for a suggestion of who you could speak to. Keep
trying. Simply ask the neighbour if they know of Mr X and is he a good
employer.
Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
out.
Any other suggestions anyone?
Buddenbrooks
"andrew3001" <andre...@ymail.com> wrote in message
news:8k2i9t...@mid.individual.net...
If this was the other way around, a NZ girl coming to the UK and starting a
job without a work Visa the employer
would be liable to a �10,000 fine.
maus
> On 11/11/10 11:21, High Priest wrote:
> > Hello again, Andrew. Let's see if we can work together to resolve this
> > terrible situation.
> >
>
> out.
>
> Any other suggestions anyone?
>
>
A few:
I wouldn't rate people to a casual caller by telephone, you don't know
who you are talking to. Its not unknown to have your opinion recorded
and played on radio later.
My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
`learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.
One daughter went to Noo Jerk when promised a job in a bar, discovered
that it was completely illegal (I had told her before she went, but she
believed the bullshit artist), luckily I had a cousin that took her in
when the accomodation turned out to be a crackhouse.
Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
:)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
tTake a few days extra and get out there.
(I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)
maus
>
Also, with some of the NZ girls I have met, be assaulted.
( In Dick Francis's Books, generally very good, but his opinion
of stable staff is low. Compare with his fawning approach to
the owners (Lord This and Lord That).. lowers my opinion of him)
I was trying to train a young pup years ago in a field beside
a trainers yard, and at one point I could hear the `Boss'
abusing a stable lad over something. he said things that I wouldn't
say to the dog.
andrew3001
> On 2010-11-11, andrew3001<andre...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/11/10 11:21, High Priest wrote:
>>> Hello again, Andrew. Let's see if we can work together to resolve this
>>> terrible situation.
>>>
>>
>> Do not rely on one Employer - have a plan B just in case it doesn't work
>> out.
>>
>> Any other suggestions anyone?
>>
>>
>
> A few:
> I wouldn't rate people to a casual caller by telephone, you don't know
> who you are talking to. Its not unknown to have your opinion recorded
> and played on radio later.
Daughter wouldn't ask this question anyway but I don't suppose there
would have been anything to lose by trying it. A brief "Yes I worked
there and he was a fair honest straightforward employer" would not
really not matter even if recorded and played on the radio, and the
opposite "No - worst experience in my life" is hard to imagine as the
employer wouldn't have passed on details of an abused employee.
>
> My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
> target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
> business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
> `learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.
>
> One daughter went to Noo Jerk when promised a job in a bar, discovered
> that it was completely illegal (I had told her before she went, but she
> believed the bullshit artist), luckily I had a cousin that took her in
> when the accomodation turned out to be a crackhouse.
So both good lessons I imagine. But how can a young girl properly check
out a job in a foreign country then? If we still had freedom of speech
perhaps an International employer (and employee?) rating website would
have been a good thing.
>
> Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
> sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
> :)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
> tTake a few days extra and get out there.
> (I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)
I think I'll be voting for LA.
caroline
"andrew3001" wrote
> So both good lessons I imagine. But how can a young girl properly check
> out a job in a foreign country then? If we still had freedom of speech
> perhaps an International employer (and employee?) rating website would
> have been a good thing.
Hi Andrew
Been following your thread with interest...sadly your daughter learned many
of the major pitfalls with working with horses very quickly, and it looks
like she learned the hard way. Trust me, I've been there too! And you
don't have to go to the other side of the world for it to happen either, it
can and does happen frequently in the UK too.
Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better quality
yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least one
of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.
I know yardandgroom.com was mentioned at some point during the thread, but
don't remember by whom...however, if she did secure this job via the Y&G
website they claim on their website that they would welcome her feedback on
the employers she may have found through their website, good or bad!
I know when I complained about an employer of mine, that I found on there a
few years back, it was taken seriously, and their subsequent ads were
removed. So might be worth a try, for nothing else but to ensure that
someone else doesn't go through the same hell.
http://www.yardandgroom.com/Support.aspx
Plenty of world class sport yards in Europe would be delighted to have her
I'm sure. In answer to a previous query, UK-trained competition grooms are
sought after worldwide, hence the reason why so many overseas yards
advertise on UK equestrian recruitment sites & publications etc. The
'Grooms Corner' on Eurodressage is always a good place to keep an eye on,
not *all* the jobs are 100% dressage if dressage isn't her thing, many jobs
advertised there are looking for stud workers competent enough to work with
world-class sports stallions...and Europe is a lot closer to home if it all
goes pear-shaped.
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/market/grooms-corner
For some more immediate assistance, it may be worth checking out some ex-pat
websites, for fellow Brits based in New Zealand who may be able to give some
short-term advice or assistance, or long term, if she's determined to stay
there.
Best of luck, and do please keep us updated with her progress
caroline
you could do with checking out the British Grooms Association (there's
support/advice offered for parents too!):
http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/
jcdill
> My daughters went through all these scams, girls seem to be a softer
> target than boys. One franchise operator used staff his takeaway
> business by promising girls a job, then telling them there was an unpaid
> `learning' period before they actually got wages.. Whole series of cons.
When I was a teenager I got a job at a local restaurant, and the owner
was that sort of jerk. Kept changing the days and hours and ultimately
wanted me to work a split shift (work lunch, 3 hours off, then work
dinner) 7 days a week, and not paying even minimum wage! Then he tried
hitting on me. I told my father, and my father and uncle had a brief
visit with him and picked-up my paycheck with full pay for all the hours
I had worked.
Obviously that's not something one can do when working at a stable job
on the other side of the planet from home. BUT the core source of this
problem is that you don't need to go 1/2 way around the world to find
low-paying stable job opportunities. The good stables advertise for
employees locally. The bad ones advertise 1/2 way around the world so
that they can hire naive girls who don't have family locally to stand up
for them. That's where the OP's daughter went wrong - taking a low-paid
job 1/2 way around the world without doing due diligence, and without
knowing anyone in the destination region. This situation has nothing to
do with "stables in NZ" - this type of problem occurs in any line of
business, and in any place in the world. I bet there are stables in the
UK that advertise in NZ and get naive girls from NZ to come to the UK to
work, with the same results as in this thread.
jc
jcdill
>But how can a young girl properly check
> out a job in a foreign country then?
Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
reputable stables.
Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
"working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
people to not post anything, or they are so new that it's not a good
option to be a "test case" - let someone local test to see if they are a
good place to work.
> I think I'll be voting for LA.
If she's going to spend a few hours or days in a layover, bring her thru
San Francisco. She can take BART into SF from the Airport and see the
city on foot, without needing a car. Can't do that in LA - visiting LA
requires a car. (Plus, LA isn't nearly as interesting as SF :-).
jc
maus
Agreed about the LA needing a car.. and SF being more fun. Anyone
travelling a long way needs a contact. (This led to the situation
in the sailing day of almost everyone from a particular area
travelling to a particular area thousands of miles away (and forming
ghettos there), ie, lots of people from Achill ending up in Cleveand
,Ohio).
andrew3001
> "andrew3001" wrote
>> So both good lessons I imagine. But how can a young girl properly check
>> out a job in a foreign country then? If we still had freedom of speech
>> perhaps an International employer (and employee?) rating website would
>> have been a good thing.
>
> Hi Andrew
>
> Been following your thread with interest...sadly your daughter learned many
> of the major pitfalls with working with horses very quickly, and it looks
> like she learned the hard way. Trust me, I've been there too! And you
> don't have to go to the other side of the world for it to happen either, it
> can and does happen frequently in the UK too.
>
> Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better quality
> yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least one
> of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.
>
> I know yardandgroom.com was mentioned at some point during the thread, but
> don't remember by whom...however, if she did secure this job via the Y&G
> website they claim on their website that they would welcome her feedback on
> the employers she may have found through their website, good or bad!
> I know when I complained about an employer of mine, that I found on there a
> few years back, it was taken seriously, and their subsequent ads were
> removed. So might be worth a try, for nothing else but to ensure that
> someone else doesn't go through the same hell.
>
> http://www.yardandgroom.com/Support.aspx
where it says:
"If you would like to give your feedback about your experience in using
YardandGroom, whether good or bad then we would love to hear from you."
Good. I'm glad if they take an interest and intend to see they get some
feedback asap.
>
> Plenty of world class sport yards in Europe would be delighted to have her
> I'm sure. In answer to a previous query, UK-trained competition grooms are
> sought after worldwide, hence the reason why so many overseas yards
> advertise on UK equestrian recruitment sites& publications etc. The
> 'Grooms Corner' on Eurodressage is always a good place to keep an eye on,
> not *all* the jobs are 100% dressage if dressage isn't her thing, many jobs
> advertised there are looking for stud workers competent enough to work with
> world-class sports stallions...and Europe is a lot closer to home if it all
> goes pear-shaped.
>
> http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/market/grooms-corner
>
> For some more immediate assistance, it may be worth checking out some ex-pat
> websites, for fellow Brits based in New Zealand who may be able to give some
> short-term advice or assistance, or long term, if she's determined to stay
> there.
>
> Best of luck, and do please keep us updated with her progress
Thanks - will try to.
Thanks also for the http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/ link but she does
not intend working as a groom long term - UK or otherwise.
andrew3001
> On 12/11/10 3:21 AM, andrew3001 wrote:
>> But how can a young girl properly check
>> out a job in a foreign country then?
>
>
> Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
> reputable stables.
>
> Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
> the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
> "working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
> detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
> another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
> Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
> people to not post anything, or they are so new that it's not a good
> option to be a "test case" - let someone local test to see if they are a
> good place to work.
Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with internetification.
Certainly I had a good look for the first employer and could find
absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone number and that there
was such a sports horse producer. I did think of ringing the Sports
Horse Society or whatever that he is member of but thought they were
unlikely to have relevant info and anyway they'd probably put his
interests first.
andrew3001
> That's where the OP's daughter went wrong - taking a low-paid
> job 1/2 way around the world without doing due diligence, and without
> knowing anyone in the destination region.
Perhaps due diligence would have been to ask here first, but we didn't.
The job was made to sound very attractive and every attempt was made to
check the employer out online - turning up practically nothing.
Fortuntately a friend of an aunties friend was practically on the
doorstep which made escape easier. An estimated 100 hrs in that first
week had taken their toll which reduced options.
And it is NZ. English speaking (well sort of!) and I get the impression
NZ is safer than the UK.
jcdill
> On 12/11/10 15:46, jcdill wrote:
>> On 12/11/10 3:21 AM, andrew3001 wrote:
>>> But how can a young girl properly check
>>> out a job in a foreign country then?
>>
>>
>> Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
>> reputable stables.
>>
>> Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
>> the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
>> "working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
>> detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
>> another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
>> Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
>> people to not post anything, or they are so new that it's not a good
>> option to be a "test case" - let someone local test to see if they are a
>> good place to work.
>
> Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
> impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with internetification.
If they are advertising for international help using the internet, then
said help certainly knows how to go on the internet and blog or tweet or
post to FB about their experiences, etc.
> Certainly I had a good look for the first employer and could find
> absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone number and that there
> was such a sports horse producer.
That could be a sign that they operate under more than one name. Or
that they are a very new concern.
> I did think of ringing the Sports
> Horse Society or whatever that he is member of but thought they were
> unlikely to have relevant info and anyway they'd probably put his
> interests first.
Or they could say "we have no such member". Often people who run scams
and cons say they are members of societies when they aren't members. If
the stable IS a member, then you should complain to the society about
the stable's lack of ethics when it comes to hiring help.
jc
jcdill
> On 12/11/10 15:32, jcdill wrote:
>
>> That's where the OP's daughter went wrong - taking a low-paid
>> job 1/2 way around the world without doing due diligence, and without
>> knowing anyone in the destination region.
>
>
> Perhaps due diligence would have been to ask here first, but we didn't.
> The job was made to sound very attractive and every attempt was made to
> check the employer out online - turning up practically nothing.
Turning up practically nothing is a big red flag. If they are a big
enough concern to be advertising for help overseas, then there should be
some info about them on the internet.
> Fortuntately a friend of an aunties friend was practically on the
> doorstep which made escape easier.
I would ask that friend of your aunties friend to go back to the stable
(with the police if necessary) and demand your daughter's pay, including
overtime pay for hours worked more than 8 per day or more than 40 per
week. (Assuming NZ has similar wage rules as the US - you should google
for the exact details.)
> An estimated 100 hrs in that first
> week had taken their toll which reduced options.
>
> And it is NZ. English speaking (well sort of!) and I get the impression
> NZ is safer than the UK.a
I'm not saying NZ is a dangerous place, just that one's options are more
limited the further one is from home, friends, family, etc. And when
you go overseas you are subject to different rules and laws. So you
need to do extra due diligence to learn about what the rules, laws, and
options are, and have a good escape plan if things go sideways.
jc
Buddenbrooks
>
> Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
> impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with internetification.
> Certainly I had a good look for the first employer and could find
> absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone number and that there
> was such a sports horse producer. I did think of ringing the Sports Horse
> Society or whatever that he is member of but thought they were unlikely to
> have relevant info and anyway they'd probably put his interests first.
>
If you look at the NZ government web site:
http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/worktemporarily/requirements/essentialwork.htm
You will see the process the employer has to comply with to allow them to
employ a foreign worker.
If you feel the employer has not complied then reporting them to the
appropriate government department will make it more difficult for them to
recruit legally in the future. It will also make it more difficult for them
to claim a one off over sight in the future if they try again.
If your daughter was paid anything she might write to the NZ tax authority
giving all the details asking if she has any NZ tax liability. This will
highlight that the employer is paying cash in hand and not declaring to the
tax authorities.
A full tax audit will bother the employer more than a bad internet blog.
caroline
"andrew3001" wrote >
> Thanks also for the http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/ link but she does not
> intend working as a groom long term - UK or otherwise.
You're welcome and I completely understand, especially after this
experience.
However, for a fairly reasonable membership fee, even if she joins for one
year only, it is my understanding that she'll have immediate access to their
legal support, which is in place for grooms working both home & abroad.
Worth checking with them anyway, to see if they can help with her immediate
situation.
maus
I had a _cunning_ plan years ago, when caught in a pub with a crowd of
dickheads that were in no hurry to go anywhere else, and I would have
no car. (Yes, I know, but this was years ago). Go to toilet, and from
there, walk. If it took hours (before mobile phones), you were still
better off, and I remember an old friend walking along the road, almost
ten miles from his home, when I gave him a lift, same situation. OK in
Ireland, or at a stretch in the UK.. (Old stories of men being in
Connemara while their friends were still in the pub in Camden Town)
Can't do that from New Zealand. SO, you take precautions before you go
. Contacts, the man who sat beside me in school lives in New Zealand.
Lucky him, the way things are turning out here.
andrew3001
>
> "andrew3001" <andre...@ymail.com> wrote in message
> news:8k61q8...@mid.individual.net...
> >
>> Does this apply to New Zealand too? It might be mistaken but I got the
>> impression that NZ are a few years behind the UK with
>> internetification. Certainly I had a good look for the first employer
>> and could find absolutely nothing apart from confirming the phone
>> number and that there was such a sports horse producer. I did think of
>> ringing the Sports Horse Society or whatever that he is member of but
>> thought they were unlikely to have relevant info and anyway they'd
>> probably put his interests first.
>>
>
>
> If you look at the NZ government web site:
>
> http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/worktemporarily/requirements/essentialwork.htm
She is not there under that provision (Essential Skills Work Policy) but
under the United Kingdom Working Holiday Scheme
>
>
> You will see the process the employer has to comply with to allow them
> to employ a foreign worker.
>
> If you feel the employer has not complied then reporting them to the
> appropriate government department will make it more difficult for them
> to recruit legally in the future. It will also make it more difficult
> for them to claim a one off over sight in the future if they try again.
>
> If your daughter was paid anything she might write to the NZ tax
> authority giving all the details asking if she has any NZ tax liability.
> This will highlight that the employer is paying cash in hand and not
> declaring to the tax authorities.
>
> A full tax audit will bother the employer more than a bad internet blog.
Paid nothing sofar unless you count board & lodging - which is
despicable really after 350 hrs or so hard work. A suitable punishment
would surely be for them to be forced to travel over here at their
expense, to do the same amount of work free for me - with frequent
verbal abuse and belittlement thrown in. I'd need to have both employers
at the same time though so one could abuse the other though, as I'm not
very good as a Mr Angry.
Una
The first "jackaroos" in Australia were young men sent from Europe to
learn the trade of cattle or sheep ranching, preparatory to pioneering
a new ranch and getting rich. They were ranch managers in training and
ranch hands were native Australians. Today, young Europeans still go to
Australia to learn a profession called "jackarooing", except the work
is being a ranch hand. The big ranching conglomerates have glossy web
sites and expensive marketing aimed at recruiting young and unskilled
workers from overseas.
It looks like a racket, similar to summer season jobs on guest ranches
in the United States. Horse crazy young women take jobs there thinking
they will be working with horses, only to be put to work cleaning guest
quarters and serving meals and washing dishes 7 days a week.
Una
andrew3001
> "andrew3001" wrote>
>> Thanks also for the http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/ link but she does not
>> intend working as a groom long term - UK or otherwise.
>
> You're welcome and I completely understand, especially after this
> experience.
>
> However, for a fairly reasonable membership fee, even if she joins for one
> year only, it is my understanding that she'll have immediate access to their
> Worth checking with them anyway, to see if they can help with her immediate
> situation.
OK thanks will look into it.
andrew3001
>> But how can a young girl properly check
>> out a job in a foreign country then?
>
>
> Oh, that's easy. There's a LOT of information out there for the
> reputable stables.
>
> Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling. A top barn in
> the equestrian world is well known and if you google their name and
> "working student" or "employee" you will get lots of blogs and such,
> detailing what it's like to work there. If you get bad info, find
> another opportunity. If you get .... nothing, then don't go there.
> Period. There's a reason there's nothing - either they sue to scare
> people to not post anything,
Ha! prophetic words - sort of. I think I need to shut up here now for a
while - and be glad I took out travel insurance for her which includes
legal cover. It is my intention though to post update in due course.
Una
she is not illiterate, there is no significant language barrier, she has
her own phone and is in contact with her family, and people are looking
out for her even if at very long distance. It could be so much worse.
Una
Una
Una
maus
> In article <slrnidq4bb.3...@gmaus.org>, maus
><grey...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Oh, coming home through Bankok?. its a noisy, greedy, exploitive s***hole,
>> sole saving grace is `innovative' mobile phone upgrading (or so I'm told
>> :)).. however, the countryside is beautiful, friendly, and largely unpoliced.
>> tTake a few days extra and get out there.
>> (I was told that raw opium is for sale everywhere, if that is your thing)
>
>
> Yes, it's noisy but so is every big city. I lived five years in
> Moscow. Good luck trying to find some solitude there!
Not my opinions, I must confess, but my son's. He went to Bankok,
then by bus to Cambodia, and around via Vietnam and Laos. Loved
the countryside, hated Bankok. He said that at night in the inns,
lumps of opium were available. Some aging US hippies that went
there and remained in a drugged dream, supported by funds from
family in the US, very cheaap to live. The remains of the Hmong
, who served for the US during the Vietnam War, remain in the
jungle, living off robbing travellers, the busses carried armed
guards. Now and again the army or police would run a search for
drugs or druggies, hauling off unfortunates who are caught to be
punsihed (Hey, just like here!)
>
> I would not call Bangkok greedy and exploitative. From the moment I
> arrive at my favorite shopping places, Pantip Plaza or Fortune City, I
> am assaulted by touts trying to sell me porn DVDs or some other shit.
> But it's easy to put on a happy face, ignore the and just power ahead.
>
> I shop for computer software (yes, I'm one of the naughty people who
> have no conscience about buying pirate DVDs) and pretty clothes for my
> wife, daughters and photo models. I always am treated with courtesy by
> pleasant people.
>
>
> I have had some medical problems (arthritis) over the last few years.
> Pain, sometimes extreme. If I'm lucky I will have some legal morphine
> with me, brought from New Zealand. If not, I've from time to time been
> helped by the local hospital who give me tramadol. Neither is available
> in Moscow but I can buy phenobarbital there, over the counter. Amazing!
>
I have arthritis as well. Most medicines for it will affect you over time.
So I don't, except for dispirin. I recommend a book, "Bad Science",
will change your opinions!
> Bangkok's pollution is not so great. A hot day, humid, air pollution
> and maybe a smell from polluted rivers combine to make the experience
> not so great. That's really the main reason why I go down to Pattaya.
> Cooler, less pollution, ocean beaches and breezes. That's the place for
> me.
>
> I have not gone out into the countryside. But you're right, i think
> it's a must-do for visitors. It's just that I'm not a touristy sort of
> person. The only reason I'm there in the first place is to get a good
> sleep in a proper bed. So I never have enough time for sightseeing.
He said that there aare no traffic lights, just blaring horns and violent
braking.
>
>
>
> Andrew commented
>
>> I think I'll be voting for LA.
>
> Of course we don't know his daughter but we did get a little look into
> her personality from Andrew's earlier comments. I think Los Angeles
> would be less-attractive for her than Pattaya.
>
> In Pattaya, she can walk everywhere or go by inexpensive baht bus.
> Accommodation, food, clothing, all cheap.
>
> In Los Angeles, a rental car will be essential, hotel cost an arm and a
> leg and everything you want to visit as a tourist is "way over there
> somewhere". I spent two years there, living in Laguna Beach and working
> in Hollywood. I spent half my life on the 405 freeway. Everything a
> tourist might be interested in will cost some sort of money or a big
> time investment.
Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
happen here as well with the rise in fees.
>
><http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/problem/authority/>
>
> Andre says "Paid nothing so far unless you count board & lodging" so I
> think she should really take steps. She might find herself receiving a
> five figure windfall.
>
>> [I'm] glad I took out travel insurance for her which includes
>> legal cover.
>
> Andrew, be careful. I'm not sure what you mean here but, so far, I
> haven't read anything that might give rise to a traditional travel
> insurance claim.
Buddenbrooks
"maus" <grey...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnie375v.b...@gmaus.org...
> On 2010-11-15, High Priest <H...@snotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
> A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
> girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
> through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
> happen here as well with the rise in fees.
>
I don't know about Ireland but the UK is a generation or two away from
third world status.
The in phrase on the news is economies need either commodities,
manufacturing or capability to innovate.
Britain has no commodities and manufacturing has been destroyed so that
leaves innovation.
Innovation requires education. We are introducing a £30,000 pound fine for
all those attempting to gain an education.
Which is roughly 2 years post graduate take home pay. Perhaps Howard could
say which other 'criminal offence' carries a
£30k or 2 years loss of freedom penalty.
It will be interesting to see what happens to Universities when students pay
the full market rate. I suspect many will look globally for universities to
study at. Countries offering a similar or better standard with better part
time work opportunities
will be attractive. If you want to study languages, perhaps in country might
be better.
maus
a) There are far too many going to uni. There simply are not that many of
those sort of jobs for them later. Hard fact. I know, I have relatives
who did well in university, now unemployed, but simply will not do real
work, as in sweaty stuff.
Ireland is a real, complete mess. (For one instance, lecturers are paid
around twice UK salaries). I don't know what is the way out of the present
crises for our countries, but the Milton Freidman inspired US and UK model
is not working.
Oh, another thing, unemployment payment here is far too high, people in
Mazuria, northern Poland , get less in wages in a job than Irish people
get in welfare. So, they move here and do the sort of necessary work that
is needed to keep society going.
(The same sort of situation that was in the UK in the 1950's, when West
Indians were brought in to do the sort of work that the English would
no longer do.)
caroline
"High Priest" wrote
> Caroline also contributed
>
>> Generally speaking (based wholly on my own experiences!), the better
>> quality
>> yards treat their staff better, so I was dismayed to read that at least
>> one
>> of the yards she was involved with exports sport horse semen.
>
> because, somehow, many of the high-end establishments have managed to
> push themselves to the top of the industry. New Zealand horses and
> semen are in very big demand from top breeders world-wide.
Dismayed because if they're a high-end enough yard, to hold the quality of
horses generally popular enough to warrant semen export beit TBs or Sport
horses, then in my experience they generally look after their staff better
than Andrew's daughter has experienced. YMMV.
> Caroline again
>
>> > Check out the employer's reputation simply by googling...
Wasn't me, sorry, you've attributed that quote incorrectly.
Good suggestion though, whomever made it.
Buddenbrooks
"caroline" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message
news:4ce2...@news.x-privat.org...
>
> Dismayed because if they're a high-end enough yard, to hold the quality
of
> horses generally popular enough to warrant semen export beit TBs or Sport
> horses, then in my experience they generally look after their staff better
> than Andrew's daughter has experienced. YMMV.
>
In the end she appears to be safe and possibly wiser, so a useful lesson.
maus
> In article <slrnie375v.b...@gmaus.org>, maus
><grey...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> I've also heard that the countryside is beautiful. And I've heard that
> Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, big cities in their own right but up North,
> are much nicer than Bangkok. For a start, the climate must be much
> nicer because those cities are up in the hills a bit and further away
> from the equator. On the other side of the coin, they're not near the
> ocean. Being a New Zealander, I can't really contemplate being too far
> from an ocean, one reason why I wan't happy in Moscow.
You will notice that i write nothing adverse about NZ, because
a) I consider it the best country in the world (outside .ie)
b) I have it filed in my mind as a bolthole!
>
> Again, there is another side to that coin. Poverty is endemic. Many
> living in the villages have no electricity or running water. Not
> everyone, of course, and I understand many of them are quite content
> with their circumstances. I think it was in the countryside that
> Thaksin Shinawatra found his strongest support because he was genuinely
> concerned to better the lot of the poorer people. Hence the ongoing
> support for him still today in the form of the "red shirts".
Different views of politics, and , I suppose ethics. Even here, people
are inclined to overlook corruption, if its combined with ability and
social concern.
>
> Also in the countryside is a thriving industry, smuggling uncut
> gemstones from Burma then cutting and mounting them. This is also
> popular in Bangkok and I have visited a couple of the places where the
> gems are cut, polished then mounted in beautiful settings. I spoke with
> the workers when I could find one who spoke English and they were happy
> as hell. Nice, indoor work, fair wages, sitting down in clean, cool
> circumstances...better than many of the poor buggers in the city.
>
> Counterfeit goods is also a thriving industry. Along Sukhumvit Road you
> can buy fake anything. The whole footpath is a sea of watches,
> jewellery, clothing, perfumes, DVDs...even DVDs of child porn are
> available in large quantities, offending a proportion of visitors but
> none of the locals.
Yes, my son came back with lots of counterfeit stuff, mostly rubbish,
but he also brought back some beautiful scented wood carvings.
>
> I specially love pewter so this is where I buy my Selangor pewter wine
> goblets but you have to test to make sure they're not lead or aluminium
> fakes.
>
Man near here has a pewter making place, reopens every few years under
a different name (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).. He used to have nice stuff.
>
>> He said that at night in the inns,
>> lumps of opium were available. Some aging US hippies that went
>> there and remained in a drugged dream, supported by funds from
>> family in the US, very cheaap to live. The remains of the Hmong
>> , who served for the US during the Vietnam War, remain in the
>> jungle, living off robbing travellers, the busses carried armed
>> guards. Now and again the army or police would run a search for
>> drugs or druggies, hauling off unfortunates who are caught to be
>> punsihed (Hey, just like here!)
>
> My god, this is so different from my understanding. You mention the
> vietnam war. Could it be these comments of your son come from many
> years ago? I've never heard of armed guards on a bus and, as I said
About 5 . This would be in the Laos- Thai borderlands
>
> Heroin is available, smuggled in from Burma usually, but I never
> thought it was common. Maybe it's just because I'm not into that scene
> either. But my friends know that I (used to) take morphine for the
> arthritis pain so, if there were an opportunity to buy some, they
> probably would've suggested it. Although they surely knew I would not
> be interested.
>
> Methamphetamine ("ya ba" in Thailand, "P" in New Zealand, "ice" in
> America) is more or less somewhat common. This is most unfortunate
> because, unlike marijuana, narcotics, cocaine (but in common with a few
> other recreational substances) it eventually turns a typical user into
> a crazed, violent moron. Thais are so peace-loving, you can be certain
> that any angry guy on the street is a user. Pity.
>
>
>
>> > I have had some medical problems (arthritis) over the last few years.
>> > Pain, sometimes extreme. If I'm lucky I will have some legal morphine
>> > with me, brought from New Zealand. If not, I've from time to time been
>> > helped by the local hospital who give me tramadol. Neither is available
>> > in Moscow but I can buy phenobarbital there, over the counter. Amazing!
>> >
>>
>> I have arthritis as well. Most medicines for it will affect you over time.
>> So I don't, except for dispirin. I recommend a book, "Bad Science",
>> will change your opinions!
>
> I share the frustrations and criticisms of Ben Goldacre. This is
> undoubtedly an excellent book.
and very funny, in a dak way.
>
> There was a documentary on television here about six months ago "Fat
> Head" that impressed me so much about the junk food/diet industry, I
> bought the DVD then made a copy for my GP. <http://fathead-movie.com>
> but the author made a mistake, I think, by giving it a humorous tone.
> Unhelpful for a serious documentary.
You can either laugh or cry.. laughing is easier. I visited a friend in
a mental hospital some years ago, and was amazed/alarmed with the many
young, beautiful girls being treated for anorexia. Awful!
>
> But I don't imagine that Goldacre would condemn quality analgesics like
> morphine, tramadol, oxycodone for treatment of serious pain. While you
> might say that "most medicines...will affect you over time" do you
> exclude aspirin? Because you take it?
Widely available in Victorian times (laudenum), and regarded as a
harmless medicine.
Oh, Dispirin?.. Basically aspirin, used for thousands of years (aspen
bark), will burn out the lining of the stomach if overused. My grandfather
used drink a bottle of stout with an aspirin at night, (dunno why) it
was blamed for killing him.
>
> Anyway, I'm not convinced that most medicines will affect you
> _adversely and irreversibly_ over time. Was that what you are
> asserting? I believe morphine is a safe, effective analgesic and
> non-addictive when used properly.
>
I was young when weedkillers started being used, old farmer said
to younger who wanted to use them, "Thats stuff is poisonous?",
young farmer replied "I hope so".
(Variation, old farmer to son who wanted to use `bag manure'
"That stuff will force all the good out of the land?", young
farmer "I hope so, it costs enough")
>
>
>
>> Daughter was fascinated with Las Vegas, thought LA was empty .
>> A friend sad that Vegas was home to thousands of `late night waitresses'
>> girls who do a couple of years working the street to pay their way
>> through uni. I have heard that story from other Americans. Maybe that will
>> happen here as well with the rise in fees.
>
> So your girl is home now? Bet you're glad.
that girl would survive anywhere, she has a violent temper. Had a job once
acting as a rape victim in a real-life-police video. Took a few takes to
get it right, the man acting as the rapist got intimidated.
Hey, driving South along the Dublin Cork road couple of years ago,
beyond Kildare I noticed a field of maize, or rather a belt of
maize around the field with a <different> crop in the middle.
During dinner the year after, two Kiwis that were shearing for
me, I told them about this. They said it was common in NZ.
(They were in a gang mostly Irish, and one of the locals
tried a similiar wheeze since, now awaiting jail)
Buddenbrooks
> On 2010-11-16, High Priest <H...@snotmail.com> wrote:
>
> You will notice that i write nothing adverse about NZ, because
> a) I consider it the best country in the world (outside .ie)
> b) I have it filed in my mind as a bolthole!
>
Having relatives and visited once I tend to agree. However I suspect its
long term future as a european colony is limited.
The pre-european settlers resentment of european presence and the asian
immigration now and into the future will end with
New Zealand being an asian culture.
Lynz
Is this girl still in NZ, was she in the south Island? or has she gone home?
If she has internet access there many NZ sites, blogs, forums etc she
could enquire about NZ equestrian employers and or jobs. A quick google
would probably find them.
Lynz