http://bit.ly/v9dqi

Is it a good idea for innovators to engage such ardent detractors?
(Obviously, I think Yes in certain circumstances...)

Richard

What ever it takes to sell comic books.  When he grows up he wants to be a
fireman.  ;-)

Jerry Roane

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Richard Gronning <rgronn...@gofast.am>wrote:

Don't you mean " If "  he grows up he wants ro be a fireman?
 
Jack Slade

--- On Tue, 8/25/09, Jerry Roane <jerry.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jerry Roane <jerry.ro...@gmail.com>
Subject: [t-i] Re: ULTra takes on...
To: transport-innovators@googlegroups.com
Received: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 2:20 AM

Richard

What ever it takes to sell comic books.  When he grows up he wants to be a fireman.  ;-)

Jerry Roane

There is balance to everything; if the ratio is really 100 to 4, why
is it even worth the trouble? Which reminds me that I have spend to
many words on this already...

Robbert

That's no longer true. The Internet and search engines expand the
crank's reach to, literally, the entire planet. If they are persistent
enough, they can become a significant factor in swaying opinion on a
far greater scale than the leaflet-distributing cranks of the past. I
believe that's happened with PRT, and this one individual has done
great damage to the image of PRT in many circles (particularly pro-
transit and cycling advocates, two groups who should be strongly
supporting PRT)

In cases like this, I think it's important to address the criticism
head-on; otherwise it looks like we have something to hide. It's easy
enough to debunk his words without having to resort to his tactics,
and I think Steve has done a good job of that here.

But then again, I've done my share of debunker-debunking, so may be a
little biased. :-)

Mike

On Aug 25, 9:57 am, Robbert Lohmann <robb...@2getthere.eu> wrote:

The main point of the removed web page:
There are a few vocal folks who absolutely hate the PRT concept, but
they tend to make criticisms about older PRT designs and do not make
any specific comments about the ULTra design. Further, there really is
no way for "PRT haters" to make an informed analysis of the ULTra
design, as this requires a) a high level of relevant technical
expertise, b) access to proprietary design details about the ULTra
system, and c) very significant time and money to conduct a thorough
study.

Mike and Robbert make very good, if conflicting, points.

I think Mike C is correct that the crazies of the world are utilizing  
the Internet to get organized in a way that has not been seen before.  
It is the same Big Lie technique now being seen in American politics:  
blatant lying to get one's way, when the lie is pointed out the liar  
repeats it over and over and over again, louder each time and  
recruits other deluded and/or unscrupulous people to shout it out too.

I don't know what the best answer to this is but I very much doubt  
that ignoring them and hoping they will go away is going to work.

Finally, I've got to ask" which "older PRT systems" do you think Road  
Kill Bill's attacks are valid for? I know people like to talk in code  
but I lost my magic decoder ring quite some time ago.

Gary Penn
Austin, Texas

On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Steve Raney wrote:

We've been dealing with this guy in this area since about 2001 or 2002.
I remember an informational meeting where Dr. Ed Anderson walked into
the room. Ken jumped up, fists clenched and screamed, "I hate you!" I
asked Ed after the meeting where he had met Ken before. He answered that
it was the first time that he had laid eyes on him.

I don't want to encourage him so I don't access his web site. He used to
have a statement to the effect, "If you want to say something about PRT,
don't bother. I don't want to know anything about it."  He sees PRT as a
conspiracy. His whole attack is on what he sees as a political
conspiracy. If you're looking for specific reasons to denigrate ULTra,
forget it! Ken doesn't know, doesn't want to know, and won't know. You
and ULTra are just part of a political plot.

I don't know how you would take on such a person with such an attitude,
but I, for one, would be glad to see it. On the other hand I don't know
how you would do it, or if it would accomplish anything.

The other side of it would be that the conflict could promote PRT with
the right PR. The debate with such a crazy might generate a lot of
publicity. I've often thought that if it were handled right, Ken could
be the best proponent of PRT out there.

Fellow conspirator,
Dick

So anti-PRT folks sometimes use the Raytheon 2000 experience as an
example of why ULTra will fail. It's
an incorrect extrapolation. (At the same time, PRT isn't proven
successful until X months of reliable
revenue service, where I don't quite know what X is.)

- Steve

On Aug 25, 12:14 pm, Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com> wrote:

The best answer to his crap is to get a bunch of money, choose a venue, ask/negotiate ROW, and build the damn thing. Anything short of that, probably won't do much good.

--- On Tue, 8/25/09, Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com> wrote:

From: Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com>
Subject: [t-i] Re: ULTra takes on...
To: transport-innovators@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 12:14 PM

I'm sorry to hear that you took down the page. Evidently you got a 
lot of heat from somewhere other than this group. I think it is a 
mistake to try to ignore this guy even though he is clearly obsessed 
and probably not in good mental health. If a story about PRT is 
posted on any news media anywhere on the Internet, and not just in 
the US, Ovendoor is the second or third commenter to post underneath 
it. I realize it is frustrating in that if you respond to his rant he 
will come back, again and again, so that the PRT enthusiast finds 
himself rolling around in the ditch with the madman being punched and 
gouged. However, if you are advocating for PRT you really have to 
warn people who are learning about the idea for the very first time, 
which is nearly everyone, that he is out there with crazed arguments. 
If you do not when they go to Google to learn more one of his 
websites is high up on the return list and their reaction is apt to 
be "Look at all this stuff they didn't tell us about !".

I think Mike C is correct that the crazies of the world are utilizing 
the Internet to get organized in a way that has not been seen before. 
It is the same Big Lie technique now being seen in American politics: 
blatant lying to get one's way, when the lie is pointed out the liar 
repeats it over and over and over again, louder each time and 
recruits other deluded and/or unscrupulous people to shout it out too.

I don't know what the best answer to this is but I very much doubt 
that ignoring them and hoping they will go away is going to work.

Finally, I've got to ask" which "older PRT systems" do you think Road 
Kill Bill's attacks are valid for? I know people like to talk in code 
but I lost my magic decoder ring quite some time ago.

Gary Penn
Austin, Texas

On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Steve Raney wrote:

Gary, there is a legal answer to people who rant about things they know nothing about. Somewhere down the road somebody will use it.
 
It is the law of LIBEL. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say almost anything you want to say. However, when you put it on the internet you have published it. When you go public with any statement that damages somebody, the Courts can hold you to task for it. Your only defense is if what you have said is true.
 
Avidor, I hope you are monitoring this line. I am about to try to organize some New System Developers into an active group, to work together and promote our projects. If you want to fuck with me, be my guest.
 
Jack Slade

--- On Tue, 8/25/09, Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com> wrote:

From: Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com>
Subject: [t-i] Re: ULTra takes on...
To: transport-innovators@googlegroups.com
Received: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 7:14 PM

I'm sorry to hear that you took down the page. Evidently you got a 
lot of heat from somewhere other than this group. I think it is a 
mistake to try to ignore this guy even though he is clearly obsessed 
and probably not in good mental health. If a story about PRT is 
posted on any news media anywhere on the Internet, and not just in 
the US, Ovendoor is the second or third commenter to post underneath 
it. I realize it is frustrating in that if you respond to his rant he 
will come back, again and again, so that the PRT enthusiast finds 
himself rolling around in the ditch with the madman being punched and 
gouged. However, if you are advocating for PRT you really have to 
warn people who are learning about the idea for the very first time, 
which is nearly everyone, that he is out there with crazed arguments. 
If you do not when they go to Google to learn more one of his 
websites is high up on the return list and their reaction is apt to 
be "Look at all this stuff they didn't tell us about !".

I think Mike C is correct that the crazies of the world are utilizing 
the Internet to get organized in a way that has not been seen before. 
It is the same Big Lie technique now being seen in American politics: 
blatant lying to get one's way, when the lie is pointed out the liar 
repeats it over and over and over again, louder each time and 
recruits other deluded and/or unscrupulous people to shout it out too.

I don't know what the best answer to this is but I very much doubt 
that ignoring them and hoping they will go away is going to work.

Finally, I've got to ask" which "older PRT systems" do you think Road 
Kill Bill's attacks are valid for? I know people like to talk in code 
but I lost my magic decoder ring quite some time ago.

Gary Penn
Austin, Texas

On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Steve Raney wrote:

I have said this before: welcome critics! And there will always be
some that make their point in a way that you do not really appreciate.
On the other hand there are several people promoting PRT so
fanatically I do not agree with them either. There's balance to
everything; let anybody criticize, take the subjective part out of
their message and start addressing the objective concerns with regard
to PRT. It will make your system better.

robbert

On Aug 26, 9:30 am, Jack Slade <skytrek_...@rogers.com> wrote:

On Aug 25, 3:14 pm, Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com> wrote:

That's my feeling on the rabid anti-PRT crowd. As Gary says, how many
people are seeing PRT for the first time in one of those rants? With
no rational counterbalance, they will come away with a strong anti-PRT
prejudice that no amount of information/education will overcome.

http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators/browse_thread/thr...

Not found

2009/8/25 Mr_Grant <davids...@gmail.com>

Exide Technologies drives fleet of 21 low power driverless electric vehicles

  <http://www.mhwmagazine.co.uk/images/news//4892.jpg>

08 September 2009

Exide Technologies is helping make the world's first Personal Rapid Transit
System a reality. ULTra (Urban Light Transport) has recently started
operational testing at Heathrow airport. It will use a fleet of 21 low power
driverless electric vehicles on a dedicated guideway route network. It will
initially transfer passengers from the Business Car Park to Terminal 5. The
system began development in 1995 and has had £25m worth of investment to
date. Exide became involved in around 1998 and were instrumental in
determining the optimum way of ensuring sufficient capacity is maintained
within the batteries. A Partial State Of Charge (PSoC) system was developed
and thoroughly tested at Exide's Over Hulton facility.

Advanced Transport Systems Ltd (ATS) , the developers of ULTra wanted to use
the latest technology - largely derived from the automotive industry -
employing 'off the shelf' systems and components to ensure an efficient and
financially viable transport solution. Four adult passengers with luggage
travel comfortably non-stop to their chosen destination in a personal
vehicle. Sophisticated software and the use of stations separate from the
main network ensure that they usually wait no more than 15 seconds for the
next vehicle. The maximum speed is 25mph (40kph), meaning that journey times
are faster and more energy efficient than cars because there is no
stop-starting.

Exide Technologies has supplied 4x 45Ah spiral wound batteries per vehicle.
This design of battery gives a greater surface area of positive and negative
plate within the cell and is the most efficient way of liberating the stored
energy from a lead acid battery. These AGM batteries suspend the electrolyte
in a glass microfibre mat as opposed to conventional lead acid flooded
batteries where the dilute sulphuric acid acts as the electrolyte. This
technology offers the advantages of high performance and is ideal where a
high power draw is required over a short period of time. The batteries are
maintenance free, vibration resistant, have a low operating temperature and
very few health & safety implications - no electrolyte is spilt if the
battery case is damaged as there is no free electrolyte. The batteries are
mounted in the rear of the vehicle and will be partially recharged each time
it stops to collect passengers. Occasionally the batteries will be given a
full recharge when required and when it is convenient to do so.

Each vehicle weighs 820kg and is just 3.7m long and 1.47m wide and employs a
7kW Synchronous AC drive motor. Guidance is autonomous and sensors plus
wireless communications plan the vehicle's journey. Passengers go to the
nearest station to request their journey. The selection is passed to a
Central Control which assigns a vehicle and plans the optimal route.

Nigel Harris, Product Support Manager from Exide comments, "This project is
being watched very closely, not only by other airports but by civil
engineers and planners around the world, for possible use in urban areas. We
have been involved with ATS since the early days, advising on battery and
charger selection as well as developing new monobloc battery technology to
cope with the PSoC regime. More recently we have been involved in developing
a special charge profile which will be used to fully recharge the vehicles
whilst they are also subject to alternating standing loads. This has been an
exciting project to be involved in and it is very rewarding to see the
results of many years of development now coming to fruition."

http://www.mhwmagazine.co.uk/LatestNews/Exide_Technologies_drives_fle...
1_low_power_driverless_electric_vehicles-4892.html

4892.jpg 51K Download