ULTra takes on...
3 views
Skip to first unread message
Mr_Grant
Aug 24, 2009, 6:06:42 PM8/24/09
to transport-innovators
... the 'leading' PRT critic.
http://bit.ly/v9dqi
Is it a good idea for innovators to engage such ardent detractors?
(Obviously, I think Yes in certain circumstances...)
http://bit.ly/v9dqi
Is it a good idea for innovators to engage such ardent detractors?
(Obviously, I think Yes in certain circumstances...)
Richard Gronning
Aug 24, 2009, 7:04:59 PM8/24/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Too much attention paid to too small a mind......
Jerry Roane
Aug 24, 2009, 10:20:51 PM8/24/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Richard
What ever it takes to sell comic books. When he grows up he wants to be a fireman. ;-)
Jerry Roane
What ever it takes to sell comic books. When he grows up he wants to be a fireman. ;-)
Jerry Roane
Jack Slade
Aug 25, 2009, 3:03:15 AM8/25/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Don't you mean " If " he grows up he wants ro be a fireman?
|
Robbert Lohmann
Aug 25, 2009, 9:57:18 AM8/25/09
to transport-innovators
the topic is a bit of a silly question. The answer is of-course
because there are also pro PRT-bloggers....
There is balance to everything; if the ratio is really 100 to 4, why
is it even worth the trouble? Which reminds me that I have spend to
many words on this already...
Robbert
because there are also pro PRT-bloggers....
There is balance to everything; if the ratio is really 100 to 4, why
is it even worth the trouble? Which reminds me that I have spend to
many words on this already...
Robbert
Mike C
Aug 25, 2009, 11:50:50 AM8/25/09
to transport-innovators
There was a time when ignoring irrational criticism was the right
approach, back when cranks were limited to handing out flyers and the
only way they could get publicity was if you engaged them.
That's no longer true. The Internet and search engines expand the
crank's reach to, literally, the entire planet. If they are persistent
enough, they can become a significant factor in swaying opinion on a
far greater scale than the leaflet-distributing cranks of the past. I
believe that's happened with PRT, and this one individual has done
great damage to the image of PRT in many circles (particularly pro-
transit and cycling advocates, two groups who should be strongly
supporting PRT)
In cases like this, I think it's important to address the criticism
head-on; otherwise it looks like we have something to hide. It's easy
enough to debunk his words without having to resort to his tactics,
and I think Steve has done a good job of that here.
But then again, I've done my share of debunker-debunking, so may be a
little biased. :-)
Mike
approach, back when cranks were limited to handing out flyers and the
only way they could get publicity was if you engaged them.
That's no longer true. The Internet and search engines expand the
crank's reach to, literally, the entire planet. If they are persistent
enough, they can become a significant factor in swaying opinion on a
far greater scale than the leaflet-distributing cranks of the past. I
believe that's happened with PRT, and this one individual has done
great damage to the image of PRT in many circles (particularly pro-
transit and cycling advocates, two groups who should be strongly
supporting PRT)
In cases like this, I think it's important to address the criticism
head-on; otherwise it looks like we have something to hide. It's easy
enough to debunk his words without having to resort to his tactics,
and I think Steve has done a good job of that here.
But then again, I've done my share of debunker-debunking, so may be a
little biased. :-)
Mike
Steve Raney
Aug 25, 2009, 2:44:59 PM8/25/09
to transport-innovators
OK, still struggling with how to best address anti-PRT bloggers. I’ve
taken the page down, but reserve the right to put it back up at a
later date.
The main point of the removed web page:
There are a few vocal folks who absolutely hate the PRT concept, but
they tend to make criticisms about older PRT designs and do not make
any specific comments about the ULTra design. Further, there really is
no way for "PRT haters" to make an informed analysis of the ULTra
design, as this requires a) a high level of relevant technical
expertise, b) access to proprietary design details about the ULTra
system, and c) very significant time and money to conduct a thorough
study.
Mike and Robbert make very good, if conflicting, points.
taken the page down, but reserve the right to put it back up at a
later date.
The main point of the removed web page:
There are a few vocal folks who absolutely hate the PRT concept, but
they tend to make criticisms about older PRT designs and do not make
any specific comments about the ULTra design. Further, there really is
no way for "PRT haters" to make an informed analysis of the ULTra
design, as this requires a) a high level of relevant technical
expertise, b) access to proprietary design details about the ULTra
system, and c) very significant time and money to conduct a thorough
study.
Mike and Robbert make very good, if conflicting, points.
Gary Penn
Aug 25, 2009, 3:14:05 PM8/25/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
I'm sorry to hear that you took down the page. Evidently you got a
lot of heat from somewhere other than this group. I think it is a
mistake to try to ignore this guy even though he is clearly obsessed
and probably not in good mental health. If a story about PRT is
posted on any news media anywhere on the Internet, and not just in
the US, Ovendoor is the second or third commenter to post underneath
it. I realize it is frustrating in that if you respond to his rant he
will come back, again and again, so that the PRT enthusiast finds
himself rolling around in the ditch with the madman being punched and
gouged. However, if you are advocating for PRT you really have to
warn people who are learning about the idea for the very first time,
which is nearly everyone, that he is out there with crazed arguments.
If you do not when they go to Google to learn more one of his
websites is high up on the return list and their reaction is apt to
be "Look at all this stuff they didn't tell us about !".
I think Mike C is correct that the crazies of the world are utilizing
the Internet to get organized in a way that has not been seen before.
It is the same Big Lie technique now being seen in American politics:
blatant lying to get one's way, when the lie is pointed out the liar
repeats it over and over and over again, louder each time and
recruits other deluded and/or unscrupulous people to shout it out too.
I don't know what the best answer to this is but I very much doubt
that ignoring them and hoping they will go away is going to work.
Finally, I've got to ask" which "older PRT systems" do you think Road
Kill Bill's attacks are valid for? I know people like to talk in code
but I lost my magic decoder ring quite some time ago.
Gary Penn
Austin, Texas
lot of heat from somewhere other than this group. I think it is a
mistake to try to ignore this guy even though he is clearly obsessed
and probably not in good mental health. If a story about PRT is
posted on any news media anywhere on the Internet, and not just in
the US, Ovendoor is the second or third commenter to post underneath
it. I realize it is frustrating in that if you respond to his rant he
will come back, again and again, so that the PRT enthusiast finds
himself rolling around in the ditch with the madman being punched and
gouged. However, if you are advocating for PRT you really have to
warn people who are learning about the idea for the very first time,
which is nearly everyone, that he is out there with crazed arguments.
If you do not when they go to Google to learn more one of his
websites is high up on the return list and their reaction is apt to
be "Look at all this stuff they didn't tell us about !".
I think Mike C is correct that the crazies of the world are utilizing
the Internet to get organized in a way that has not been seen before.
It is the same Big Lie technique now being seen in American politics:
blatant lying to get one's way, when the lie is pointed out the liar
repeats it over and over and over again, louder each time and
recruits other deluded and/or unscrupulous people to shout it out too.
I don't know what the best answer to this is but I very much doubt
that ignoring them and hoping they will go away is going to work.
Finally, I've got to ask" which "older PRT systems" do you think Road
Kill Bill's attacks are valid for? I know people like to talk in code
but I lost my magic decoder ring quite some time ago.
Gary Penn
Austin, Texas
Richard Gronning
Aug 25, 2009, 3:23:56 PM8/25/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Steve;
We've been dealing with this guy in this area since about 2001 or 2002.
I remember an informational meeting where Dr. Ed Anderson walked into
the room. Ken jumped up, fists clenched and screamed, "I hate you!" I
asked Ed after the meeting where he had met Ken before. He answered that
it was the first time that he had laid eyes on him.
I don't want to encourage him so I don't access his web site. He used to
have a statement to the effect, "If you want to say something about PRT,
don't bother. I don't want to know anything about it." He sees PRT as a
conspiracy. His whole attack is on what he sees as a political
conspiracy. If you're looking for specific reasons to denigrate ULTra,
forget it! Ken doesn't know, doesn't want to know, and won't know. You
and ULTra are just part of a political plot.
I don't know how you would take on such a person with such an attitude,
but I, for one, would be glad to see it. On the other hand I don't know
how you would do it, or if it would accomplish anything.
The other side of it would be that the conflict could promote PRT with
the right PR. The debate with such a crazy might generate a lot of
publicity. I've often thought that if it were handled right, Ken could
be the best proponent of PRT out there.
Fellow conspirator,
Dick
Steve Raney
Aug 25, 2009, 3:27:23 PM8/25/09
to transport-innovators
re "older systems." I used to have a schpiel that was something like:
Before the Wright Brothers, there were a number of failed efforts at
airplane flight. We can collectively
call all of these efforts the Wrong Brothers. You couldn't prove that
the Wright Brothers would fail based
on an extrapolation of the Wrong Brothers experience. The Wrong
Brothers just proved that the
technology was difficult to develop.
So anti-PRT folks sometimes use the Raytheon 2000 experience as an
example of why ULTra will fail. It's
an incorrect extrapolation. (At the same time, PRT isn't proven
successful until X months of reliable
revenue service, where I don't quite know what X is.)
- Steve
Before the Wright Brothers, there were a number of failed efforts at
airplane flight. We can collectively
call all of these efforts the Wrong Brothers. You couldn't prove that
the Wright Brothers would fail based
on an extrapolation of the Wrong Brothers experience. The Wrong
Brothers just proved that the
technology was difficult to develop.
So anti-PRT folks sometimes use the Raytheon 2000 experience as an
example of why ULTra will fail. It's
an incorrect extrapolation. (At the same time, PRT isn't proven
successful until X months of reliable
revenue service, where I don't quite know what X is.)
- Steve
Michael Weidler
Aug 26, 2009, 1:47:14 AM8/26/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
| The best answer to his crap is to get a bunch of money, choose a venue, ask/negotiate ROW, and build the damn thing. Anything short of that, probably won't do much good. --- On Tue, 8/25/09, Gary Penn <gary...@mac.com> wrote: |
|
Jack Slade
Aug 26, 2009, 3:30:39 AM8/26/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Gary, there is a legal answer to people who rant about things they know nothing about. Somewhere down the road somebody will use it.
It is the law of LIBEL. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say almost anything you want to say. However, when you put it on the internet you have published it. When you go public with any statement that damages somebody, the Courts can hold you to task for it. Your only defense is if what you have said is true.
Avidor, I hope you are monitoring this line. I am about to try to organize some New System Developers into an active group, to work together and promote our projects. If you want to fuck with me, be my guest.
Jack Slade |
|
Robbert Lohmann
Aug 26, 2009, 6:01:21 AM8/26/09
to transport-innovators
Darn, you got me spending more time on it ;-)
I have said this before: welcome critics! And there will always be
some that make their point in a way that you do not really appreciate.
On the other hand there are several people promoting PRT so
fanatically I do not agree with them either. There's balance to
everything; let anybody criticize, take the subjective part out of
their message and start addressing the objective concerns with regard
to PRT. It will make your system better.
robbert
On Aug 26, 9:30 am, Jack Slade <skytrek_...@rogers.com> wrote:
> Gary, there is a legal answer to people who rant about things they know nothing about. Somewhere down the road somebody will use it.
>
> It is the law of LIBEL. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say almost anything you want to say. However, when you put it on the internet you have published it. When you go public with any statement that damages somebody, the Courts can hold you to task for it. Your only defense is if what you have said is true.
>
> Avidor, I hope you are monitoring this line. I am about to try to organize some New System Developers into an active group, to work together and promote our projects. If you want to fuck with me, be my guest.
>
> Jack Slade
>
> --- On Tue, 8/25/09, Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com> wrote:
I have said this before: welcome critics! And there will always be
some that make their point in a way that you do not really appreciate.
On the other hand there are several people promoting PRT so
fanatically I do not agree with them either. There's balance to
everything; let anybody criticize, take the subjective part out of
their message and start addressing the objective concerns with regard
to PRT. It will make your system better.
robbert
On Aug 26, 9:30 am, Jack Slade <skytrek_...@rogers.com> wrote:
> Gary, there is a legal answer to people who rant about things they know nothing about. Somewhere down the road somebody will use it.
>
> It is the law of LIBEL. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say almost anything you want to say. However, when you put it on the internet you have published it. When you go public with any statement that damages somebody, the Courts can hold you to task for it. Your only defense is if what you have said is true.
>
> Avidor, I hope you are monitoring this line. I am about to try to organize some New System Developers into an active group, to work together and promote our projects. If you want to fuck with me, be my guest.
>
> Jack Slade
>
Mike C
Aug 26, 2009, 10:16:47 AM8/26/09
to transport-innovators
On Aug 25, 3:14 pm, Gary Penn <garyp...@mac.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry to hear that you took down the page. Evidently you got a
> lot of heat from somewhere other than this group. I think it is a
> mistake to try to ignore this guy even though he is clearly obsessed
> and probably not in good mental health. If a story about PRT is
> posted on any news media anywhere on the Internet, and not just in
> the US, Ovendoor is the second or third commenter to post underneath
> it. I realize it is frustrating in that if you respond to his rant he
> will come back, again and again, so that the PRT enthusiast finds
> himself rolling around in the ditch with the madman being punched and
> gouged. However, if you are advocating for PRT you really have to
> warn people who are learning about the idea for the very first time,
> which is nearly everyone, that he is out there with crazed arguments.
> If you do not when they go to Google to learn more one of his
> websites is high up on the return list and their reaction is apt to
> be "Look at all this stuff they didn't tell us about !".
"I do not attempt to convert my opponents -- I aim at converting their
audience."
That's my feeling on the rabid anti-PRT crowd. As Gary says, how many
people are seeing PRT for the first time in one of those rants? With
no rational counterbalance, they will come away with a strong anti-PRT
prejudice that no amount of information/education will overcome.
>
> I think Mike C is correct that the crazies of the world are utilizing
> the Internet to get organized in a way that has not been seen before.
> It is the same Big Lie technique now being seen in American politics:
> blatant lying to get one's way, when the lie is pointed out the liar
> repeats it over and over and over again, louder each time and
> recruits other deluded and/or unscrupulous people to shout it out too.
>
feedback loop keeps building.
> I don't know what the best answer to this is but I very much doubt
> that ignoring them and hoping they will go away is going to work.
>
> Finally, I've got to ask" which "older PRT systems" do you think Road
> Kill Bill's attacks are valid for? I know people like to talk in code
> but I lost my magic decoder ring quite some time ago.
design and some stuff Malewicki said many years ago. In the past they
attacked pretty much every system, JPods, Taxi2000, Morgantown,
Raytheon, as well as ULTra. They used to call ULTra a "golf cart" and
"frog on a stick", but that was well before Heathrow's progress. The
attacks on ULTra have subsided in direct proportion to their progress
in delivering a system. :-)
>
> Gary Penn
> Austin, Texas
Mike C
>
Jerry Schneider
Aug 26, 2009, 12:55:26 PM8/26/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
A relevant column from M. Dowd, NYT's:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/opinion/26dowd.html?_r=1
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/opinion/26dowd.html?_r=1
------------------------------------------------------------
Gérard Massip
Sep 8, 2009, 6:06:48 AM9/8/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Not found
2009/8/25 Mr_Grant <davi...@gmail.com>
--
Les transports dans l'Est Parisien (77 nord, 93, 94, une partie de Paris) http://groups.google.com/group/alive.transportation/browse_thread/thread/951743e6d3ca8889?hl=fr#
Revue de web transports http://groups.google.com/group/alive.transportation/topics?hl=fr
Roy Reynolds
Sep 8, 2009, 1:35:50 PM9/8/09
to transport-...@googlegroups.com
Exide Technologies drives fleet of 21 low power driverless electric vehicles
08 September 2009
Exide Technologies is helping make the world's
first Personal Rapid Transit System a reality. ULTra (Urban Light Transport) has
recently started operational testing at Heathrow airport. It will use a fleet of
21 low power driverless electric vehicles on a dedicated guideway route network.
It will initially transfer passengers from the Business Car Park to Terminal 5.
The system began development in 1995 and has had £25m worth of investment to
date. Exide became involved in around 1998 and were instrumental in determining
the optimum way of ensuring sufficient capacity is maintained within the
batteries. A Partial State Of Charge (PSoC) system was developed and thoroughly
tested at Exide's Over Hulton facility.
Advanced Transport Systems Ltd (ATS) , the developers of ULTra wanted to use the latest technology - largely derived from the automotive industry - employing 'off the shelf' systems and components to ensure an efficient and financially viable transport solution. Four adult passengers with luggage travel comfortably non-stop to their chosen destination in a personal vehicle. Sophisticated software and the use of stations separate from the main network ensure that they usually wait no more than 15 seconds for the next vehicle. The maximum speed is 25mph (40kph), meaning that journey times are faster and more energy efficient than cars because there is no stop-starting.
Exide Technologies has supplied 4x 45Ah spiral wound batteries per vehicle. This design of battery gives a greater surface area of positive and negative plate within the cell and is the most efficient way of liberating the stored energy from a lead acid battery. These AGM batteries suspend the electrolyte in a glass microfibre mat as opposed to conventional lead acid flooded batteries where the dilute sulphuric acid acts as the electrolyte. This technology offers the advantages of high performance and is ideal where a high power draw is required over a short period of time. The batteries are maintenance free, vibration resistant, have a low operating temperature and very few health & safety implications - no electrolyte is spilt if the battery case is damaged as there is no free electrolyte. The batteries are mounted in the rear of the vehicle and will be partially recharged each time it stops to collect passengers. Occasionally the batteries will be given a full recharge when required and when it is convenient to do so.
Each vehicle weighs 820kg and is just 3.7m long and 1.47m wide and employs a 7kW Synchronous AC drive motor. Guidance is autonomous and sensors plus wireless communications plan the vehicle's journey. Passengers go to the nearest station to request their journey. The selection is passed to a Central Control which assigns a vehicle and plans the optimal route.
Nigel Harris, Product Support Manager from Exide comments, "This project is being watched very closely, not only by other airports but by civil engineers and planners around the world, for possible use in urban areas. We have been involved with ATS since the early days, advising on battery and charger selection as well as developing new monobloc battery technology to cope with the PSoC regime. More recently we have been involved in developing a special charge profile which will be used to fully recharge the vehicles whilst they are also subject to alternating standing loads. This has been an exciting project to be involved in and it is very rewarding to see the results of many years of development now coming to fruition."
Advanced Transport Systems Ltd (ATS) , the developers of ULTra wanted to use the latest technology - largely derived from the automotive industry - employing 'off the shelf' systems and components to ensure an efficient and financially viable transport solution. Four adult passengers with luggage travel comfortably non-stop to their chosen destination in a personal vehicle. Sophisticated software and the use of stations separate from the main network ensure that they usually wait no more than 15 seconds for the next vehicle. The maximum speed is 25mph (40kph), meaning that journey times are faster and more energy efficient than cars because there is no stop-starting.
Exide Technologies has supplied 4x 45Ah spiral wound batteries per vehicle. This design of battery gives a greater surface area of positive and negative plate within the cell and is the most efficient way of liberating the stored energy from a lead acid battery. These AGM batteries suspend the electrolyte in a glass microfibre mat as opposed to conventional lead acid flooded batteries where the dilute sulphuric acid acts as the electrolyte. This technology offers the advantages of high performance and is ideal where a high power draw is required over a short period of time. The batteries are maintenance free, vibration resistant, have a low operating temperature and very few health & safety implications - no electrolyte is spilt if the battery case is damaged as there is no free electrolyte. The batteries are mounted in the rear of the vehicle and will be partially recharged each time it stops to collect passengers. Occasionally the batteries will be given a full recharge when required and when it is convenient to do so.
Each vehicle weighs 820kg and is just 3.7m long and 1.47m wide and employs a 7kW Synchronous AC drive motor. Guidance is autonomous and sensors plus wireless communications plan the vehicle's journey. Passengers go to the nearest station to request their journey. The selection is passed to a Central Control which assigns a vehicle and plans the optimal route.
Nigel Harris, Product Support Manager from Exide comments, "This project is being watched very closely, not only by other airports but by civil engineers and planners around the world, for possible use in urban areas. We have been involved with ATS since the early days, advising on battery and charger selection as well as developing new monobloc battery technology to cope with the PSoC regime. More recently we have been involved in developing a special charge profile which will be used to fully recharge the vehicles whilst they are also subject to alternating standing loads. This has been an exciting project to be involved in and it is very rewarding to see the results of many years of development now coming to fruition."
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages