Is it possible???
mike3
I saw this post:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/8a7d2d865ab97b92?hl=en
"Do I see some contradictions, some conflicting quotes etc.? Why yes,
of course? But to me this only means I am not yet deep enough in the
understanding of His Word and the reason for it is the conditioning I
suffer from, such as vain imaginings, idle fancies, illusions,
various dependencies, emotional problems and the like, all of which
came from this highly materialistic world we grow up in. And I
believe too that if we only have ten percent of the Revelation
translated and released to mankind then how can we, in all cases,
reconcile what we feel are contradictions and the like? We simply do
not have all the facts, nor are we spiritually developed enough to
apply our intellectual powers effectively as we will in the future as
we acquire more virtues. "
But is it impossible for someone of this time to get
that much spiritual development (the amount mentioned in the last
sentence), no matter how much they may want it? How can one find
and tear all the materialistic conditioning to bits (although in my
case
it might not be as much since I grew up in a more socially isolated
environment) and then get that great spiritual development? Because
if spiritual growth is THE purpose of life, then it MUST, MUST be
done and there should be absolutely zero excuses and zero cop outs.
compx2
Your words are loaded. Perhaps you should say precisely what you mean
by "materialism" and "materialistic conditioning" because for me those
words are useless, as are any words unless and until the meanings are
agreed. In the mean time I can only guess what you might mean, as is
the case with the way most Baha'is speak, in my experience.
On the other hand, if you are talking about attempting to be more
spiritual, about acquiring virtues, about adding good will, good
intentions, service to humanity and virtue to all our dealings with
others, as the Baha'i Writings teach, then I think I could understand
you better. From my experience, spirituality and virtue has more to
do with Baha'i teachings than materialism, however Baha'is seem to
ignore those things and talk about calamity, materialism and such.
Spiritual development? One develops spiritually by devoting oneself
to spiritual endeavors. Is there any doubt about that?
Perhaps we mean different things when we say "spiritual" however.
--Kent
On May 29, 8:41 pm, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I saw this post:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.bahai/msg/8a7d2d865ab97b9...
Suzanne
> Your words are loaded. Perhaps you should say precisely what you mean
> by "materialism" and "materialistic conditioning" because for me those
> words are useless, as are any words unless and until the meanings are
> agreed. In the mean time I can only guess what you might mean, as is
> the case with the way most Baha'is speak, in my experience.
Kent,
Here's a passage where 'Abdu'l-Baha seems to define materialism:
"...In cities like New York the people are submerged in the sea of
materialism. Their sensibilities are attuned to material forces,
their perceptions purely physical. The animal energies predominate in
their activities; all their thoughts are directed to material things;
day and night they are devoted to the attractions of this world,
without aspiration beyond the life that is vanishing and mortal. In
schools and temples of learning knowledge of the sciences acquired is
based upon material observations only; there is no realization of
Divinity in their methods and conclusions - all have reference to the
world of matter. They are not interested in attaining knowledge of
the mysteries of God or understanding the secrets of the heavenly
Kingdom; what they acquire is based altogether upon visible and
tangible evidences. Beyond these evidences they are without
susceptibilities; they have no idea of the world of inner
significances and are utterly out of touch with God, considering this
an indication of reasonable attitude and philosophical judgement
whereof they are self-sufficient and proud
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Pages: 261-262)
And then this one by Shoghi Effendi:
"...the crass materialism, which lays excessive and ever-increasing
emphasis on material well-being, forgetful of those things of the
spirit on which alone a sure and stable foundation can be laid for
human society. It is this same cancerous materialism, born originally
in Europe, carried to excess in the North American continent,
contaminating the Asiatic peoples and nations, spreading its ominous
tentacles to the borders of Africa, and now invading its very heart,
which Bahá'u'lláh in unequivocal and emphatic language denounced in
His Writings, comparing it to a devouring flame and regarding it as
the chief factor in precipitating the dire ordeals and world-shaking
crises that must necessarily involve the burning of cities and the
spread of terror and consternation in the hearts of men. Indeed a
foretaste of the devastation which this consuming fire will wreak upon
the world, and with which it will lay waste the cities of the nations
participating in this tragic world-engulfing contest, has been
afforded by the last World War, marking the second stage in the global
havoc which humanity, forgetful of its God and heedless of the clear
warnings uttered by His appointed Messenger for this day, must, alas,
inevitably experience. It is this same all-pervasive, pernicious
materialism against which the voice of the Center of Bahá'u'lláh's
Covenant was raised, with pathetic persistence, from platform and
pulpit, in His addresses to the heedless multitudes, which, on the
morrow of His fateful visit to both Europe and America, found
themselves suddenly swept into the vortex of a tempest which in its
range and severity was unsurpassed in the world's history..."
(Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p. 124)
Kent wrote:
>
> On the other hand, if you are talking about attempting to be more
> spiritual, about acquiring virtues, about adding good will, good
> intentions, service to humanity and virtue to all our dealings with
> others, as the Baha'i Writings teach, then I think I could understand
> you better. From my experience, spirituality and virtue has more to
> do with Baha'i teachings than materialism, however Baha'is seem to
> ignore those things and talk about calamity, materialism and such.
While i naturally agree that the main focus of our Writings is to
develop spiritual qualities and be of service to humanity, materialism
and its negative effects, including calamities, are often repeated
themes in our Writings. Speaking of the pull of materialism doesn't
deny the importance of spirituality. In fact the opposite is true.
Understanding our dual natures -- the material and the spiritual sides
to us-- and the negative effects of pure materialism is an incenstive
to really strive to develop all those good qualities and service to
humaity you're talking about.
Suzanne
mike3
Does this bit mean that it may be possible to investigate nonmaterial
things with science, once the materialism is removed from it?
Does this mean that if we were to give up the materialism and heed the
warnings, remember God, etc., we could avoid these troubles? Yet it
says
that this global havoc must be "inevitably" experienced. And are all
these
other crises and troubles still way, way, way far off in the future
(which
means any sort of peace is an even more distant prospect still), or
are they
already starting to happen? They say WWII was just a "foretaste" of
it... so
when and is the real deal starting?
> Kent wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, if you are talking about attempting to be more
> > spiritual, about acquiring virtues, about adding good will, good
> > intentions, service to humanity and virtue to all our dealings with
> > others, as the Baha'i Writings teach, then I think I could understand
> > you better. From my experience, spirituality and virtue has more to
> > do with Baha'i teachings than materialism, however Baha'is seem to
> > ignore those things and talk about calamity, materialism and such.
>
> While i naturally agree that the main focus of our Writings is to
> develop spiritual qualities and be of service to humanity, materialism
> and its negative effects, including calamities, are often repeated
> themes in our Writings. Speaking of the pull of materialism doesn't
> deny the importance of spirituality. In fact the opposite is true.
> Understanding our dual natures -- the material and the spiritual sides
> to us-- and the negative effects of pure materialism is an incenstive
> to really strive to develop all those good qualities and service to
> humaity you're talking about.
>
I would agree with this bit.
compx2
You were here when the Promulgation of Universal Peace was proclaimed,
by Baha'is, "Pilgrim's Notes". And yet you quote it as
authoritative? Is it not the Baha'i view that Pilgrim's Notes are
worse than the musings of Covenant Breakers? (this is sarcasm)
Anyway, if you were here, you know that is not my view. Just because
some of the talks exist only in translation, no original Persian text,
does not make them Pilgrim's Notes, but I digress.
As you know, 'Abdu'l-Baha used the word "materialism" in several
different ways, as we all do. There is no single Baha'i definition of
the word.
And certainly "crass materialism" is not the same thing as
"materialism" and more than "crass person" is the same thing as
"person".
> ...materialism
> and its negative effects, including calamities, are often repeated
> themes in our Writings.
I deny that materialism equals bad. I deny that the writings say it
is. Over emphasis on material things is definititely bad, just as
over eating is bad. But we must eat, and we must rely on food and
other material things.
Everything in moderation, even materialism.
> Understanding our dual natures -- the material and the spiritual sides
> to us-- and the negative effects of pure materialism is an incenstive
> to really strive to develop all those good qualities and service to
> humaity you're talking about.
Apparently we agree about materialism, then.
Best wishes. --Kent
> > > we acquire more virtues. "- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Suzanne
<<I deny that materialism equals bad. I deny that the writings say it
is. Over emphasis on material things is definititely bad, just as
over eating is bad. But we must eat, and we must rely on food and
other material things.>>
The Writings don't say the material side of life is all bad as long as
it's tempered with the spiritual. However, as far as I can see,
"materialism" means that it isn't tempered by the spiritual. It
always has a bad connotation in our Writings, and as far as I can see
it's consistent. Please find me any one quote in the Baha'i Writings
which gives a positive slant to the word "materialism". The "ism" on
the end of the word means that it is something different from the
material side of life, per se.
Suzanne wrote:
> Understanding our dual natures -- the material and the spiritual sides
> to us-- and the negative effects of pure materialism is an incenstive
> to really strive to develop all those good qualities and service to
> humaity you're talking about.
Kent: << Apparently we agree about materialism, then.>>
Right. It would seem that it's just semantics that's the problem.
Suzanne
Suzanne
>
> You were here when the Promulgation of Universal Peace was proclaimed,
> by Baha'is, "Pilgrim's Notes". And yet you quote it as
> authoritative? Is it not the Baha'i view that Pilgrim's Notes are
> worse than the musings of Covenant Breakers? (this is sarcasm)
Hi Kent,
I thought I would address this point separately. I don't remember
being any part of that discussion, but even if I was, I would always
do an independent investigation of the truth and see what Shoghi
Effendi or the Universal House of Justice and/or its Research
Department had to say on the topic -- since I don't take the view of
individuals Baha'is, or even their consensus on any particular forum,
as being "authoritative".
While I realize that the level of authenticity of any of the talks is
not the same as the actual Writings, Shoghi Effendi said we should
study them and learn from them:
"He would advise you among other books to study the Talks of Abdu'l-
Baha, as His method of approaching the mind of the public cannot be
surpassed... "
(21 October 1943)
(Shoghi Effendi: The Importance of Deepening, Page: 226)
The Universal House of Justice does say that not all talks can be
authenticated:
"For many of His addresses included in "The Promulgation of Universal
Peace" and "Paris Talks", for example, no original authenticated text
has yet been found. However, the Guardian allowed such compilations to
continue to be used by the friends. In the future each talk will have
to be identified and those which are unauthenticated will have to be
clearly distinguished from those which form a part of Bahá'í
Scripture. This does not mean that the unauthenticated talks will have
to cease to be used -- merely that the degree of authenticity of every
document will have to be known and understood." (23 March 1987)
But it does say that we can continue using these talks, and it
doesn't say anything about them being on the level of "pilgrim's
notes". If there is a quote about that from an authoritative source,
please could you cite it.
Suzanne
compx2
In Europe I told the philosophers and scientists of materialism that
the criterion of the senses is not reliable. For instance, consider a
mirror and the images reflected in it. These images have no actual
corporeal existence. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha
Section, p. 251)
For a long time the religious world had been weakened and materialism
had advanced; the spiritual forces of life were waning, moralities
were becoming degraded, composure and peace had vanished from souls
and satanic qualities were dominating hearts; strife and hatred
overshadowed humanity, bloodshed and violence prevailed. (Abdu'l-Baha,
Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 256)
Mankind is submerged in the sea of materialism and occupied with the
affairs of this world. (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal
Peace, p. 335)
But education is of three kinds: material, human and spiritual.
Material education is concerned with the progress and development of
the body, through gaining its sustenance, its material comfort and
ease. This education is common to animals and man. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some
Answered Questions, p. 7)
One cannot separate materialism from material more than we can
separate spirituality from spirit. If you want to know about
materialism it is devotion to matter, to the material. Spirituality,
oppositely, is concerned with spirit, the immaterial. That does not
mean that everything immaterial is good and everything material is
bad.
Thanks for reading.
--Kent
compx2
I could probably find that discussion pretty easily. It was about a
year ago, "Pilgrims' Notes vs Baha'i Writings Options" was one of the
central threads.
My central tenet was that the House said "many" of the talks could not
be authenticated. That is not the same thing as saying the whole book
is wrong.
--Kent
Suzanne
I didnt see any positive uses of the word materialism in the quotes
you cited.
Kent wrote:
>
> One cannot separate materialism from material more than we can
> separate spirituality from spirit. If you want to know about
> materialism it is devotion to matter, to the material. Spirituality,
> oppositely, is concerned with spirit, the immaterial. That does not
> mean that everything immaterial is good and everything material is
> bad.
Nobody's speaking of separating materialism out from matter. As I've
been saying all along, matter is a neutral term and we all need it in
the material world. The material and the spiritual need to go hand in
hand. However,materialists are excessivly attached to matter. When
you put the ism or an ist on the end of it, something changes.
Here's are definitions of the word materialism/ist which I got on
line. They seem to be very much in accordance with how they are used
in the Baha'i Writings:
*"A desire for wealth and material possessions with little interest in
ethical or spiritual matters."
*"The philosophy of materialism holds that the only thing that can be
truly proven to exist is matter, and is considered a form of
physicalism". ...
*"Constant concern over material possessions and wealth; a great or
excessive regard for worldly concerns; The philosophical belief that
nothing exists beyond what is physical"
*"Materialistic describes a person who is markedly more concerned with
material things (such as money and possessions) rather than spiritual,
intellectual, or cultural values; an adherent of materialism"
*"This position believes that all things that are real have a material
or physical substance. It discounts any metaphysical reality (ie, non-
material). This is often used interchangeably with physicalism."
All of it is limited. All of it either puts matter over spirit or
denies the spiritual altogether.
Suzanne
Douglas McAdam
That is my understanding too and the definition and our Writings seem
to support your thoughts here.
Another thing to consider is that many people claim to be spiritual
but then act in ways opposite which to me is a sort of materialistic
spiritualism. For example a person who kills others because of their
beliefs. Would a truly spiritual person, a religious person, actually
do the kinds of things we are witnessing on the news such as killing,
imprisoning people who disagree with them or in any way show prejudice
towards other religions? Or how about religious gurus who say a true
believer will acquire wealth?
regards,
doug