Paul's questions
Matt Menge
there seems to be an uncanny tendency that, once a question arises
about the Faith, you never seem to be satisfied with our answers. Is
there anything we can do to give you more satisfactory answers? What
are you looking for?
Best Regards,
Matt
Paul O. BARTLETT
What am I looking for? The truth which I can hang my life on. (I
admit that that's a tall order.) Bahá'ís place a great deal of emphasis
on independent investigation of truth. That is what I am doing. And
that entails asking a lot of questions. This forum (SRB) is not all
that I am doing. I have had one-on-one sessions with Bahá'ís, I have
gone to a number of firesides, and as best as I am able (I have a
reading impairment) I have been trying to read some of the Writings.
What else can you do to give me more satisfactory answers? I honestly
don't know. Why do I seem never to be satisfied with the answers? I
have been around the block so many times that I am skeptical of
anybody's claimed answers. Quite frankly, I am coming to think that I
may never be at peace (and given my age, "never" may come sooner rather
than later).
--
Paul Bartlett
bartlett at smart.net
PGP key info in message headers
Susan Maneck
>have been around the block so many times that I am skeptical of
>anybody's claimed answers. Quite frankly, I am coming to think that I
>may never be at peace (and given my age, "never" may come sooner rather
>than later).
Dear Paul,
Maybe you are going around about in the wrong way in trying to hang your hat on
proving propositional errancy. Have you ever read the portion of the Iqan that
we often refer to as the Tablet of the True Seeker?
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Fred Capp
>On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Matt Menge wrote:
>
to which Paul Bartlett replied:
> What am I looking for? The truth which I can hang my life on. (I
>admit that that's a tall order.) Bahá'ís place a great deal of emphasis
>on independent investigation of truth. That is what I am doing. And
>that entails asking a lot of questions. This forum (SRB) is not all
>that I am doing. I have had one-on-one sessions with Bahá'ís, I have
>gone to a number of firesides, and as best as I am able (I have a
>reading impairment) I have been trying to read some of the Writings.
>What else can you do to give me more satisfactory answers? I honestly
>don't know. Why do I seem never to be satisfied with the answers? I
>have been around the block so many times that I am skeptical of
>anybody's claimed answers. Quite frankly, I am coming to think that I
>may never be at peace (and given my age, "never" may come sooner rather
>than later).
I'm sorry Paul if some of us seem a bit short with you. You've seen
*some* of the attacks that we get here & sometimes it's difficult to
not "automatically" assume that someone's honest confusion is not
another attack. Several members of this group have also, as you
phrased it, "been around the block" & we all are trying to help those
who seriously desire it. That you've put so much effort into the
Baha'i Faith speaks highly of your perseverance, reading impairment
notwithstanding.
There are those amongst us who are also slipping rapidly into our
"declining years." (They always come before we're ready, it seems.)
We feel fortunate to have found something that satisfies our souls &
brings comfort to our lives. Some of us were burnt by other groups, &
some few here may have even been "burnt" by other Baha'is. We've
persevered & by the unfailing grace of God have found a home.
Where-ever you find yourself, I pray that God grants you a home too.
I understand that many, or most, of the Baha'i books are available
on tape. Would that be of any help to you?
--
Fredrick B. Capp
*************************************
La amanta Dio deziras pacon por c'iuj Siaj kreaj'oj
- kial do ili pasigas la tempon kun milito?
This loving God desires peace for all His creatures
- why then do they spend their time in war?
-'Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks p.120
*************************************
Malstulta, malseniga, kaj maliranta!
(I'm) Not stupid, (I'm) not dispensable & (I'm) not going!
*************************************
Preskau' c'iuj preterpasas pordojn k fenestrojn
Almost anything can get past gates & windows
Bruce D Limber
Paul, it might help to bear in mind that
has both books and talking books (as well as videos and other things).
So if you have a problem with reading, you may well be able to listen to
the books on tape and get the same content in an easier format! . . .
Regards,
Bruce
Paul O. BARTLETT
> > [cut]
> Maybe you are going around about in the wrong way in trying to hang your hat on
> proving propositional errancy. Have you ever read the portion of the Iqan that
> we often refer to as the Tablet of the True Seeker?
I have made cursory reading of the whole of the Iqan but, to be
quite honest, I have not gotten much out of it. I have found it very,
very difficult to read (for me). So I suppose I have read the tablet
you are referring to, although the copy of the Iqan I have does not
list any such portion under that name.
Paul O. BARTLETT
> I'm sorry Paul if some of us seem a bit short with you. You've seen
> *some* of the attacks that we get here & sometimes it's difficult to
> not "automatically" assume that someone's honest confusion is not
> another attack. [...]
I do not always phrase my questions and replies well. If they
come across as attacks, please be assured that they are not. I tend to
interact the same way with adherents of all religions. I am not one to
attack. If I don't believe something, I just ignore it and go away.
If, in the future, I am no longer neutral and inquiring but decide
that Bahá'u'lláh was not who he claimed to be, then I will just go
away.
> That you've put so much effort into the
> Baha'i Faith speaks highly of your perseverance, reading impairment
> notwithstanding.
Thank you.
> Where-ever you find yourself, I pray that God grants you a home too.
Thank you.
> I understand that many, or most, of the Baha'i books are available
> on tape. Would that be of any help to you?
In my particular situation it probably would not, but thanks for
mentioning it. I was not aware that things were available on tape.
dmcadam
Dear Paul-
I don't know why I am thinking as I do when I read this email of yours but I just had to write and say to you that it strikes me that you are trying to add up a bunch of facts and conclude Baha'u'llah is or is not a Messenger of God and this simply may not be the way to go. Maybe, unlike science, one will see it when one believes it, as one author once said. I feel that logically you have nothing to lose by accepting Baha'u'llah and striving to be obedient to His Covenant, the same as the rest of us are
doing. What is there to lose? If you live out your years as a steadfast Baha'i, working to eliminate all forms of prejudice, providing the spiritual solution to the economic problems, and in general helping to realize all the Baha'i teachings which everyone will agree the world needs today and then find out Baha'u'llah is not who He claimed to be, what have you lost? On the other hand if you do not take the chance now and deny Him and later find out He really was the Promised One of all ages, then what
have you lost? Everything!
You are a logical person and it makes sense to me that given all the Teachings of Baha'u'llah really are what the world needs today, then you should be a Baha'i and helping to apply them to a suffering humanity. What is there to lose?
God bless us all,
doug
>On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Matt Menge wrote:
>
>> I am certainly not troubled by the number of Paul's questions. But
>> there seems to be an uncanny tendency that, once a question arises
>> about the Faith, you never seem to be satisfied with our answers. Is
>> there anything we can do to give you more satisfactory answers? What
>> are you looking for?
>
> What am I looking for? The truth which I can hang my life on. (I
>admit that that's a tall order.) Bahá'ís place a great deal of emphasis
>on independent investigation of truth. That is what I am doing. And
>that entails asking a lot of questions. This forum (SRB) is not all
>that I am doing. I have had one-on-one sessions with Bahá'ís, I have
>gone to a number of firesides, and as best as I am able (I have a
>reading impairment) I have been trying to read some of the Writings.
>What else can you do to give me more satisfactory answers? I honestly
>don't know. Why do I seem never to be satisfied with the answers? I
>have been around the block so many times that I am skeptical of
>anybody's claimed answers. Quite frankly, I am coming to think that I
>may never be at peace (and given my age, "never" may come sooner rather
>than later).
>
>--
>Paul Bartlett
>bartlett at smart.net
>PGP key info in message headers
>
>
>
Doug McAdam, Pres.
SSD, Inc.
705 W Foster St.
Kokomo, IN 46902
phone: 765-457-8628 <> email: dmc...@iquest.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
³What they desperately need is to know how to live their lives
they need to know who they are, to what purpose they exist,
and how they should act towards one another; and, once they
know the answers to these questions they need to be helped to
gradually apply these answers to everyday behavior. It is to the
solution of this basic problem of mankind that the greater part of
all our energy and resources should be directed.... ²
(Nov 19/74 UHJ)
Dana Netherton
(dmcadam) said ...
> Reply to Paul O. BARTLETT message 7/22/2003 11:30 AM
>
> Dear Paul-
> I don't know why I am thinking as I do when I read this email of
> yours but I just had to write and say to you that it strikes me that
> you are trying to add up a bunch of facts and conclude Baha'u'llah
> is or is not a Messenger of God and this simply may not be the way
> to go. Maybe, unlike science, one will see it when one believes it,
> as one author once said. I feel that logically you have nothing to
> lose by accepting Baha'u'llah and striving to be obedient to His
> Covenant, the same as the rest of us are doing. What is there to
> lose? If you live out your years as a steadfast Baha'i, working to
> eliminate all forms of prejudice, providing the spiritual solution
> to the economic problems, and in general helping to realize all the
> Baha'i teachings which everyone will agree the world needs today and
> then find out Baha'u'llah is not who He claimed to be, what have you
> lost? On the other hand if you do not take the chance now and deny
> Him and later find out He really was the Promised One of all ages,
> then what have you lost? Everything!
>
> You are a logical person and it makes sense to me that given all the
> Teachings of Baha'u'llah really are what the world needs today, then
> you should be a Baha'i and helping to apply them to a suffering
> humanity. What is there to lose?
Ah -- Pascal's wager, redux in Baha'i form!
For those not familiar with it ...
.... in his Pensees, published in 1670, French Catholic
theologian, mathematician, and savant Blaise Pascal set
forth a gambler's argument for being a Christian. (His
youthful preoccupation with gambling led to his laying the
foundations for the mathematics of probability.)
"Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is.
Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain
all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without
hesitation that He is."
And, Pascal continues, wager without concern for the
lifetime you are betting ... because if you lose you lose
only that lifetime, whereas if you gain you gain "an
eternity of life and happiness."
The other person in his imaginary dialogue responds, "I
confess it, I admit it. But, still, is there no means of
seeing the faces of the cards?"
Pascal: "Yes, scripture and the rest, etc."
Gambler: "Yes, but I have my hands tied and my mouth closed;
I am forced to wager, and am not free. I am not released,
and am so made that I cannot believe. What, then, would you
have me do?"
Pascal: "True. But at least learn your inability to believe,
since reason brings you to this, and yet you cannot believe.
Endeavor then to convince yourself, not by increase of
proofs of God, but by the abatement of your passions. You
would like to attain faith, and do not know the way; you
would like to cure yourself of unbelief, and ask the remedy
for it. Learn of those who have been bound like you, and who
now stake all their possessions. These are people who know
the way which you would follow, and who are cured of an ill
of which you would be cured. Follow the way by which they
began; by acting as if they believed, taking the holy water,
having masses said, etc. Even this will naturally make you
believe, and deaden your acuteness."
Gambler: "But this is what I am afraid of."
Pascal: "And why? What have you to lose? ... Now, what harm
will befall you in taking this side? You will be faithful,
honest, humble, grateful, generous, a sincere friend,
truthful. Certainly you will not have those poisonous
pleasures, glory and luxury; but will you not have others? I
will tell you that you will thereby gain in this life, and
that, at each step you take on this road, you will see so
great certainty of gain, so much nothingness in what you
risk, that you will at last recognize that you have wagered
for something certain and infinite, for which you have given
nothing."
(Pensee no. 233)
Mind you, Pascal has Christianity in mind (though he does
not quite say it explicitly, since he is talking to the
"libertine" of his day, who adheres to no specific faith at
all).
Doug's wager has Baha'i-ism in mind, instead.
But each proposition offers the same immediate goal: a
productive, virtuous life. With nothing more than that,
what's a Real Gambler to do?
Flip a coin? Cut a deck of cards? <grin>
Mind you, Pascal does offer this pesky business about "an
eternity of life and happiness," and compares an infinite
lifetime like that, versus a limited lifetime of any kind.
But -- I dunno -- maybe Baha'i offers that to its believers
too.
--
(Mr) Dana Netherton
Default address is a spam dump. Use it, and
I'll never see it. To reach me, e-mail:
dana 1 netherton 2 net, where "1" = at, and "2" = dot
--------
I don't belong to an organized religion.
I'm Eastern Orthodox.
Susan Maneck
>you are referring to, although the copy of the Iqan I have does not
>list any such portion under that name.
Dear Paul,
Let me post that portion of it. Read it slowly and I think you will get
something out of it.
warmest, Susan
But, O my brother, when a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in
the path leading to the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all
else, cleanse and purify his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the
inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and
the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast,
which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement,
and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all
shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant
of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him
to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness
in this day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft
of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine
mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion
and error. That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce
the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave
unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above
any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and
vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and
refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of
speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of
the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but
for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century.
113 That seeker should also regard backbiting as grievous error, and keep
himself aloof from its dominion, inasmuch as backbiting quencheth the light of
the heart, and extinguisheth the life of the soul. He should be content with
little, and be freed from all inordinate desire. He should treasure the
companionship of those that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of
boastful and worldly people a precious benefit. At the dawn of every day he
should commune with God, and with all his soul persevere in the quest of his
Beloved. He should consume every wayward thought with the flame of His loving
mention, and, with the swiftness of lightning, pass by all else save Him. He
should succour the dispossessed, and never withhold his favour from the
destitute. He should show kindness to animals, how much more unto his
fellow-man, to him who is endowed with the power of utterance. He should not
hesitate to offer up his life for his Beloved, nor allow the censure of the
people to turn him away from the Truth. He should not wish for others that
which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil.
With all his heart should the seeker avoid fellowship with evil doers, and pray
for the remission of their sins. He should forgive the sinful, and never
despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often
hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and,
quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial
Concourse. And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's
ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire. Our purpose in
revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker
that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things
save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.
114 These are among the attributes of the exalted, and constitute the hall-mark
of the spiritually-minded. They have already been mentioned in connection with
the requirements of the wayfarers that tread the Path of Positive Knowledge.
When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential
conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he
hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: "Whoso maketh efforts for
Us," [81] he shall enjoy the blessing conferred by the words: "In Our ways
shall We assuredly guide him." [82]
115 Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of
passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within
the seeker's heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his
soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and
misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his
being. At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the
Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through
the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit
from the slumber of negligence. Then will the manifold favours and outpouring
grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker
that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a
new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will
penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will
perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute
certitude. He will discover in all things the mysteries of divine Revelation
and the evidences of an everlasting manifestation.
116 I swear by God! Were he that treadeth the path of guidance and seeketh to
scale the heights of righteousness to attain unto this glorious and supreme
station, he would inhale at a distance of a thousand leagues the fragrance of
God, and would perceive the resplendent morn of a divine Guidance rising above
the dayspring of all things. Each and every thing, however small, would be to
him a revelation, leading him to his Beloved, the Object of his quest. So great
shall be the discernment of this seeker that he will discriminate between truth
and falsehood even as he doth distinguish the sun from shadow. If in the
uttermost corners of the East the sweet savours of God be wafted, he will
assuredly recognize and inhale their fragrance, even though he be dwelling in
the uttermost ends of the West. He will likewise clearly distinguish all the
signs of God--His wondrous utterances, His great works, and mighty deeds--from
the doings, words and ways of men, even as the jeweller who knoweth the gem
from the stone, or the man who distinguisheth the spring from autumn and heat
from cold. When the channel of the human soul is cleansed of all worldly and
impeding attachments, it will unfailingly perceive the breath of the Beloved
across immeasurable distances, and will, led by its perfume, attain and enter
the City of Certitude. Therein he will discern the wonders of His ancient
wisdom, and will perceive all the hidden teachings from the rustling leaves of
the Tree--which flourisheth in that City. With both his inner and his outer ear
he will hear from its dust the hymns of glory and praise ascending unto the
Lord of Lords, and with his inner eye will he discover the mysteries of
"return" and "revival." How unspeakably glorious are the signs, the tokens, the
revelations, and splendours which He Who is the King of names and attributes
hath destined for that City! The attainment of this City quencheth thirst
without water, and kindleth the love of God without fire. Within every blade of
grass are enshrined the mysteries of an inscrutable wisdom, and upon every
rose-bush a myriad nightingales pour out, in blissful rapture, their melody.
Its wondrous tulips unfold the mystery of the undying Fire in the Burning Bush,
and its sweet savours of holiness breathe the perfume of the Messianic Spirit.
It bestoweth wealth without gold, and conferreth immortality without death. In
every leaf ineffable delights are treasured, and within every chamber
unnumbered mysteries lie hidden.
117 They that valiantly labour in quest of God's will, when once they have
renounced all else but Him, will be so attached and wedded to that City that a
moment's separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken
unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and receive the
surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose and the melody of its
Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and
re-adorned.
Paul O. BARTLETT
> Reply to Paul O. BARTLETT message 7/22/2003 11:30 AM
>
> Dear Paul-
> I don't know why I am thinking as I do when I read this email of
> yours but I just had to write and say to you that it strikes me that
> you are trying to add up a bunch of facts and conclude Baha'u'llah
> is or is not a Messenger of God and this simply may not be the way
> to go. [...]
It may or may not be the way to go, but this has been the way I
have gone in the past, and it seems to be the only way I (personally,
given who I am) can go at present.
> I feel that logically you have nothing to
> lose by accepting Baha'u'llah and striving to be obedient to His
> Covenant, the same as the rest of us are doing. What is there to
> lose?
As Dana Netherton has already pointed out, this is Pascal's Wager
in Bahá'í dress. However, as the atheist author Antony Flew pointed
out in the essay "Is Pascal's Wager the Only Safe Bet?" in his 1976
book "The Presumption of Atheism," Pascal's Wager is, shall we say,
troublesome. Unlike Flew, I am not an atheist, but I think his
criticism is cogent.
> If you live out your years as a steadfast Baha'i, [...]
> then find out Baha'u'llah is not who He claimed to be, what have you
> lost? On the other hand if you do not take the chance now and deny
> Him and later find out He really was the Promised One of all ages,
> then what have you lost? Everything!
But on yet another hand, suppose God is one such that if you are
not a member of religion X, which is not the Bahá'í Faith, then you
are a loser and will spend eternity in hell? Some forms of Islam and
Protestant Christianity come to mind for religion X. Maybe God
reserves a special place in hell for Bahá'ís. I'm not saying that this
is the way God is, but it is one of the pitfalls of Pascal's Wager.
> You are a logical person and it makes sense to me that given all the
> Teachings of Baha'u'llah really are what the world needs today, then
> you should be a Baha'i and helping to apply them to a suffering
> humanity. What is there to lose?
Maybe everything if Bahá'u'lláh was not who Bahá'ís claim he was.
dmcadam
>But on yet another hand, suppose God is one such that if you are
>not a member of religion X, which is not the Bahá'í Faith, then you
>are a loser and will spend eternity in hell? Some forms of Islam and
>Protestant Christianity come to mind for religion X. Maybe God
>reserves a special place in hell for Bahá'ís. I'm not saying that
this
>is the way God is, but it is one of the pitfalls of Pascal's Wager.
>
>> You are a logical person and it makes sense to me that given all the
>> Teachings of Baha'u'llah really are what the world needs today, then
>> you should be a Baha'i and helping to apply them to a suffering
>> humanity. What is there to lose?
>
> Maybe everything if Bahá'u'lláh was not who Bahá'ís claim he
was.
Hi Paul-
First of all Baha'is don't claim anything but what Baha'u'llah
Himself says. We believe He is Who He claims to be and this belief
has come in either or both ways through the use of reason in the
independent investigation of truth and reality or from a heart
prompting when confronted with His Reality. Through the heart is
quick and through the intellect is slower but sooner or later both
must come into balance and play in the process. And I am not saying
this from any scientific knowledge but rather from 35 years of
experience in dealing with many souls seeking after truth. I could
be totally wrong but so far nothing has proven me otherwise.
Secondly, as a rational person I cannot fathom God sending us a
representative from Satan who will lead us astray by teaching us the
Oneness of God, Humanity and Religions, with the specifics on how to
harmonize faith and reason, science and religion, eliminate all forms
of prejudice, establish the Kingdom of God on earth and generally
speaking bring about love and unity in the world, complete with the
necessary systemic improvements, proper institutions and procedures
and the like. Maybe what is meant by false prophets are the
self-appointed religious leaders who are preaching their beliefs are
true and all others false. Equally at fault too are those believers
who are not following their religious teachings by not investigating
and by believing in these self-appointed ministers. Most of the
time, whenever the Baha'i Faith is presented to these people they
automatically condemn it without evidence, purely on bind belief.
That is not scientific or rational, nor is it in keeping with an
Scriptures I know of.
I ask you to compare the fruits.
I asked myself onetime how it was that the knowledge has increased
exponentially as such a high rate since the early 1800s and the only
thing that fits is the fact there have been twin Revelators of the
Bab and Baha'u'llah. One of my scholarly friends came up with a
Renaissance Theory by identifying five Predicators to a full blown
renaissance and then going back in history to validate her findings
and it turned out all five were present since the coming of the Bab
and Baha'u'llah. I don't have this paper on my computer but I do
have a hard copy somewhere in my files and if my memory serves me
right here are the five predicators -
A Time of Troubles
Failure of Current Institutions and Systems to solve the problems and
in fact their impotence causes them to devise solutions that cause
further problems.
An Appearance of a Charismatic Personality who reveals new knowledge
and which later is written down.
Widespread Opposition to this new knowledge.
Gradual Acceptance wherein the status quo claims they already had
all this knowledge.
Finally a Full Blown Renaissance is experienced.
My first reaction to Baha'u'llah, after reading some of His Writings
was that I felt He was the most intelligent being on the planet and
we best follow His teachings. It was strictly through an
intellectual approach I declared my belief. Later the Message
reached my heart and "I just knew" with certitude He indeed IS the
Promised One of all ages.
Do I see some contradictions, some conflicting quotes etc.? Why yes,
of course? But to me this only means I am not yet deep enough in the
understanding of His Word and the reason for it is the conditioning I
suffer from, such as vain imaginings, idle fancies, illusions,
various dependencies, emotional problems and the like, all of which
came from this highly materialistic world we grow up in. And I
believe too that if we only have ten percent of the Revelation
translated and released to mankind then how can we, in all cases,
reconcile what we feel are contradictions and the like? We simply do
not have all the facts, nor are we spiritually developed enough to
apply our intellectual powers effectively as we will in the future as
we acquire more virtues.
What most people are doing is looking at this Revelation through
their conditioned viewpoints. But we have a process, a systematic
application of the Baha'i Writings that will remove all these
obstacles, this materialistic and unrealistic, even irrational filter
through which we view and apply this new Faith.
I feel we must put ourselves in the dual role of a scientific
researcher who will accept these claims, these Teachings and then
conduct experiments with them by application on ourselves.
Prayers offered to assist you in your search for truth and reality,
doug
Susan Maneck
>not a member of religion X, which is not the Bahá'í Faith, then you
>are a loser and will spend eternity in hell? Some forms of Islam and
>Protestant Christianity come to mind for religion X. Maybe God
>reserves a special place in hell for Bahá'ís. I'm not saying that t
his
>is the way God is, but it is one of the pitfalls of Pascal's Wager.
Dear Paul,
Then perhaps it is time to bring in a little Anselm (though in most conte
xts I
prefer Pascal). Anselm defines God as that which is greater than what we
can
imagine. (There are Qur'anic verses which say the same thing.) A God who
sends
people to hell for not belonging to the right club strikes me as too smal
l.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enterºhai-st
Amy Lugsch
" My first reaction to Baha'u'llah, after reading some of His Writings
was that I felt He was the most intelligent being on the planet and
we best follow His teachings. It was strictly through an
intellectual approach I declared my belief. Later the Message
reached my heart and "I just knew" with certitude He indeed IS the
Promised One of all ages.
Do I see some contradictions, some conflicting quotes etc.? Why yes,
of course? But to me this only means I am not yet deep enough in the
understanding of His Word and the reason for it is the conditioning I
suffer from, such as vain imaginings, idle fancies, illusions,
various dependencies, emotional problems and the like, all of which
came from this highly materialistic world we grow up in. And I
believe too that if we only have ten percent of the Revelation
translated and released to mankind then how can we, in all cases,
reconcile what we feel are contradictions and the like? We simply do
not have all the facts, nor are we spiritually developed enough to
apply our intellectual powers effectively as we will in the future as
we acquire more virtues."
Hi Doug,
I've recently been reading "The Revelation of Baha'u'llah" by Adib
Taherzadeh. In volumn 2, on pages 218-219. I came across something that
really struck a cord with me.
It fits well with your assessment above. When we are studying the Baha'i
Faith we come to a point where we believe Baha'u'llah is who He said He was,
but there may be a few points we have trouble putting our hearts and minds
around which can become a stumbling block. This passage explains this
process so eloquently, I wanted to share it.
"...For instance, when an individual reaches a point where he recognizes
Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God, his heart becomes the recipient of
the light of God's Faith for this day. If the believer immerses himself from
the start in the ocean of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, reads His writings daily
not merely in order to add to his own knowledge but to receive the food of
the spirit, seeks the companionship of the righteous, and arises to serve
Him with sincerity and detachment, then he may steadily grow in faith and
become a radiant and enthusiastic soul. He may obtain a deeper understanding
of the writings and reach a point where both his mind and his heart work
together in harmony. Such a believer will eventually find no conflict
between the teachings of Baha'u'llah and his own thinking. He will discover
many a wisdom hidden in the utterances of Baha'u'llah and will recognize the
limitations and shortcomings of his own finite mind.
But if a believer, after having recognized Baha'u'llah, fails to follow this
path, he may soon find himself in conflict with many aspects of the Faith of
Baha'u'llah. His intellect may not be able to understand the wisdom behind
many of His Teachings, he may indeed reject some of His precepts and
eventually lose faith altogether. Some people struggle for years to overcome
this problem, for they long to be confirmed in their faith. Often such an
individual may be helped to acquire a true understanding of the Faith by
those who truly believe in Baha'u'llah and are detached from this world.
But if everything else fails, the only remedy for the individual who still
has a glimmer of faith in his heart, but who has doubts about the Cause, is
to admit that he may be wrong in his assessment of the teachings of the
Faith, to affirm that Baha'u'llah's knowledge is of God, and to surrender
his feelings and thoughts completely to Him. Once he submits himself in this
way and perseveres in doing so with sincerity and truthfulness, the channels
of the grace of God open and his heart becomes the recipient of the light of
true knowledge. He will discover, some time in his life, either by intuition
or through prayer and meditation, the answer to all his problems and
objections. Every trace of conflict will disappear from his mind. He will
readily understand the reasons behind those very teachings which previously
baffled his intellect, and will find many mysteries enshrined in the
utterances of Baha'u'llah, mysteries of which he was completely unaware in
earlier days..."
I hope that this passage may be of comfort to some of our seekers here.
Have a glorious day!
Loving Greetings,
Amy Lugsch
"I asked myself onetime how it was that the knowledge has increased
exponentially as such a high rate since the early 1800s and the only
thing that fits is the fact there have been twin Revelators of the
Bab and Baha'u'llah. "
Hello again,
Regarding your above statement...
"The Revelation of Baha'u'llah" by Adib Taherzadeh, volumn 3, p 138-140.
Deals with this issue, which I found fascinating.
(edited...for brevity)
"...Soon afer the passing of Baha'u'llah, the time had come the expansion of
the Faith throughout the world, expecially the West, but the pace was still
slow...But today the Baha'i community is engaged in enormous teaching
activity covering the whole world...All these activities are made possible
by using the fast and marvellous system of communications which has become
available in recent times. The Baha'is believe that this is no coincidence:
that God, having called the peoples of the world to unity through the
message of Baha'u'llah, has also provided the means by which that unity may
be established. In the meantime, humanity benefits without realizing why
these marvellous inventions have come about.
Those who are unfamiliar with the Faith or have not recognized the station
of Baha'u'llah will no doubt view with sceptisism the argument that the
advent of the modern communications system is primarily due to the
appearance of a universal religion in the world. It seems far-fetched and
unacceptable. But in surveying the progress of their Faith, the followers
of Baha'u'llah have seen that whenever the propagation of the Faith or the
building of its Administrative Order needed some new material means, they
were miraculously provided in time. Some of the new inventions which have
played a vital part in the development of the Faith have come about just in
time to serve a particular need...
When the Universal House of Justice, the supreme governing body of the
Baha'i community, came into being in 1963, one of the most essential needs
was the collating of all the Writings of the Central Figures of the Faith
and the making of a comprehensive index of all the subjects they
contained...
Up until the formation of the Universal House of Justice, it was impossible
even to attempt to make this comprehensive index. Such a colossal
undertaking, involving the provision of a detailed list of every subject
within such a vast range of writings, would not have been a practical
proposition given the small size of the Baha'i community because of the
non-existence of technologial aids at that time. The invention of these
aids, such as photocopiers and electronic processors, and their commercial
use, were almost synchronized with the birth of the Supreme Body of the
Faith of Baha'u'llah. And soon this vital task was undertaken. Had it not
been for this timely development, insignificant as it may seem today, it is
difficult to imagine how the Universal House of Justice could have
discharged its sacred functions in the Baha'i world effectively...
Indeed, as the believers play their part in the propagation and
consolidation of the Cause of Baha'u'llah, God provides the means for its
progress and eventual establishment as a world religion for all mankind..."
I was wondering, are any of you aware if anyone has done any kind of
timeline along those lines, of inventions needed and devised throughout the
course of the Baha'i Faith. I think that would be quite interesting indeed.
Loving Greetings,