Yiddish/ Hebrew help - please
Adelle
Hope you don't mind helping a little.
An acquaintance posted the following to Facebook: "lefargen, farginen - to
open space, to share pleasure; the exact opposite of the verb, "to envy."
While envy means disliking or resenting the happiness of others, farginen
means make a pact with another individual's pleasure or happiness. And the
opposite of shadenfreude, too, I would imagine."
Well, firstly - how accurate is her definition for farginen?
Secondly - can you tell me other Jewish/Yiddish/ Hebrew words/concepts which
involve one person feeling or taking part in, someone else's joy? There is
kvelling. What else?
Want to see if I can get a newsletter article out of this concept. I really
like the notion of sharing in and feeling someone else's happiness.
Thanks much!
Adelle
The Judge
wrote:
Look it up yourself.
The Judge
wrote:
You can look it up yourself:
Adelle
"The Judge" <ju...@moscowmail.com> wrote in message
news:1afa8837-c954-4b32...@m11g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Well, not really. A - the link isn't working well today. But a dictionary
isn't helpful if you don't know the word I you want to look up.
I have a general concept in my head and am seeking works that fill that
concept. The premise is that English doesn't have single words that describe
these feelings and actions, but Yiddish and Hebrew do. Kvell is to burst
with pride, but not pride itself. If I understand farginen, it is to
experience joy for another person's joy. The closest I can describe that is
to experience vicariously - yet that isn't accurate either, and is still a
phrase and not single words. Hard to use a word dictionary/translator when
you have a phrase and not a single word.
Adelle
Sergei
> On Oct 5, 9:50 am, "Adelle" <adstavisatgmail....@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "The Judge" <ju...@moscowmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1afa8837-c954-4b32...@m11g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> > On Oct 4, 7:25 pm, "Adelle" <adstavisatgmail....@invalid.invalid>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Hi, Everyone;
>
> > > Hope you don't mind helping a little.
>
> > > An acquaintance posted the following to Facebook: "lefargen, farginen - to
> > > open space, to share pleasure; the exact opposite of the verb, "to envy."
> > > While envy means disliking or resenting the happiness of others, farginen
> > > means make a pact with another individual's pleasure or happiness. And the
> > > opposite of shadenfreude, too, I would imagine."
>
> > > Well, firstly - how accurate is her definition for farginen?
>
> > > Secondly - can you tell me other Jewish/Yiddish/ Hebrew words/concepts
> > > which
> > > involve one person feeling or taking part in, someone else's joy? There is
> > > kvelling. What else?
>
> > > Want to see if I can get a newsletter article out of this concept. I
> > > really
> > > like the notion of sharing in and feeling someone else's happiness.
>
> > > Thanks much!
>
> > > Adelle
> > >You can look it up yourself:
>
>
> > Well, not really. A - the link isn't working well today. But a dictionary
> > isn't helpful if you don't know the word I you want to look up.
>
> > I have a general concept in my head and am seeking works that fill that
> > concept. The premise is that English doesn't have single words that describe
> > these feelings and actions, but Yiddish and Hebrew do. Kvell is to burst
> > with pride, but not pride itself. If I understand farginen, it is to
> > experience joy for another person's joy. The closest I can describe that is
> > to experience vicariously - yet that isn't accurate either, and is still a
> > phrase and not single words. Hard to use a word dictionary/translator when
> > you have a phrase and not a single word.
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> This link works
>
> http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't speak Yiddish, although I have taken German in school.The two
are closely related.
I have an online German translator. I'll see what I can find for you.
Sergei
wrote:
>
> news:1afa8837-c954-4b32...@m11g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 4, 7:25 pm, "Adelle" <adstavisatgmail....@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi, Everyone;
>
> > Hope you don't mind helping a little.
>
> > An acquaintance posted the following to Facebook: "lefargen, farginen - to
> > open space, to share pleasure; the exact opposite of the verb, "to envy."
> > While envy means disliking or resenting the happiness of others, farginen
> > means make a pact with another individual's pleasure or happiness. And the
> > opposite of shadenfreude, too, I would imagine."
>
> > Well, firstly - how accurate is her definition for farginen?
>
> > Secondly - can you tell me other Jewish/Yiddish/ Hebrew words/concepts
> > which
> > involve one person feeling or taking part in, someone else's joy? There is
> > kvelling. What else?
>
> > Want to see if I can get a newsletter article out of this concept. I
> > really
> > like the notion of sharing in and feeling someone else's happiness.
>
> > Thanks much!
>
> > Adelle
> >You can look it up yourself:
>
>
> Well, not really. A - the link isn't working well today. But a dictionary
> isn't helpful if you don't know the word I you want to look up.
>
> I have a general concept in my head and am seeking works that fill that
> concept. The premise is that English doesn't have single words that describe
> these feelings and actions, but Yiddish and Hebrew do. Kvell is to burst
> with pride, but not pride itself. If I understand farginen, it is to
> experience joy for another person's joy. The closest I can describe that is
> to experience vicariously - yet that isn't accurate either, and is still a
> phrase and not single words. Hard to use a word dictionary/translator when
> you have a phrase and not a single word.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I do understand German. Yiddish is mostly German with a unique
accent..Here is what I found in an English-German dictionary
http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-german/Experience%20vicariously/forced
This translator accepts phrases. Perhaps you can get help from it.
sheldonlg
So farginen is the antonym of shadenfreuder?
Micha Berger
> I do understand German. Yiddish is mostly German with a unique
> accent..Here is what I found in an English-German dictionary
Yiddish was born when Jews fleeing Ashkenaz (western Germany, around
the Rhineland, through what is now Belgium and eastern France) and the
Crusades headed to Eastern Europe.
There is also a Wstern Yiddish, used by those who remain, but in general
Jews of Germany acculturated, even the O Jews, and the language was
more like a dialect of German with some Hebrew and Aramaic thrown in,
written in the Hebrew alphabet. Much like Ladino, which is closer to
Castillian Spanish than are the dialects Spanish spoken in Latin America
-- but written in Hebrew letters.
When people say "Yiddish", they're thinking Eastern Yiddish.
These held onto Middle High German as a tie to the past and to tradition.
The resulting language ended up influenced by both the grammar and the
vocabulary of their resulting host languages, so that there are different
dialects of Yiddish depending upon the language of the local non-Jews.
Modern German is New High German. Yiddish is actually closer to Amischer
Deutch (the language spoken by the Amish) than to the language of Germany.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The waste of time is the most extravagant
mi...@aishdas.org of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org -Theophrastus
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Sergei
> Adelle wrote:
> > "The Judge" <ju...@moscowmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1afa8837-c954-4b32...@m11g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> > On Oct 4, 7:25 pm, "Adelle" <adstavisatgmail....@invalid.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi, Everyone;
>
> >> Hope you don't mind helping a little.
>
> >> An acquaintance posted the following to Facebook: "lefargen, farginen - to
> >> open space, to share pleasure; the exact opposite of the verb, "to envy."
> >> While envy means disliking or resenting the happiness of others, farginen
> >> means make a pact with another individual's pleasure or happiness. And the
> >> opposite of shadenfreude, too, I would imagine."
>
> >> Well, firstly - how accurate is her definition for farginen?
>
> >> Secondly - can you tell me other Jewish/Yiddish/ Hebrew words/concepts
> >> which
> >> involve one person feeling or taking part in, someone else's joy? There is
> >> kvelling. What else?
>
> >> Want to see if I can get a newsletter article out of this concept. I
> >> really
> >> like the notion of sharing in and feeling someone else's happiness.
>
> >> Thanks much!
>
> >> Adelle
>
> >> You can look it up yourself:
>
>
> > Well, not really. A - the link isn't working well today. But a dictionary
> > isn't helpful if you don't know the word I you want to look up.
>
> > I have a general concept in my head and am seeking works that fill that
> > concept. The premise is that English doesn't have single words that describe
> > these feelings and actions, but Yiddish and Hebrew do. Kvell is to burst
> > with pride, but not pride itself. If I understand farginen, it is to
> > experience joy for another person's joy. The closest I can describe that is
> > to experience vicariously - yet that isn't accurate either, and is still a
> > phrase and not single words. Hard to use a word dictionary/translator when
> > you have a phrase and not a single word.
>
> > Adelle
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I doubt it.The first word is a verb(infinite form) and the second one
is a noun.
Sergei
> Sergei <ser...@russiamail.com> wrote:
> > I do understand German. Yiddish is mostly German with a unique
> > accent..Here is what I found in an English-German dictionary
>
> Yiddish was born when Jews fleeing Ashkenaz (western Germany, around
> the Rhineland, through what is now Belgium and eastern France) and the
> Crusades headed to Eastern Europe.
>
> There is also a Wstern Yiddish, used by those who remain, but in general
> Jews of Germany acculturated, even the O Jews, and the language was
> more like a dialect of German with some Hebrew and Aramaic thrown in,
> written in the Hebrew alphabet. Much like Ladino, which is closer to
> Castillian Spanish than are the dialects Spanish spoken in Latin America
> -- but written in Hebrew letters.
>
> When people say "Yiddish", they're thinking Eastern Yiddish.
>
> These held onto Middle High German as a tie to the past and to tradition.
> The resulting language ended up influenced by both the grammar and the
> vocabulary of their resulting host languages, so that there are different
> dialects of Yiddish depending upon the language of the local non-Jews.
>
> Modern German is New High German. Yiddish is actually closer to Amischer
> Deutch (the language spoken by the Amish) than to the language of Germany.
> Danke schoen.Kennen Sie Deutsch?(Thank you. Do you speak German?)
> Ich habe das Deutsch ein Jahre am Universitat und ein Jahre am
> Hochschule studiert(I studied German for one year in high school and one year in college)
Adelle
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
news:ZfedncTwO7Kn11fX...@giganews.com...
That's what the facebook poster wrote. She set forth that the concept of
feeling joy for someone else's joy is the opposite of feeling joy for
someone else's misfortune. That only works if she has the definition
correct. Its what I am working on.
Sergei - The link worked this time, but my phrases still aren't working.
After several failures, as a test, I tried to elicit kvell by typing
bursting with pride. Didn't work. typing in pride finally elicited kveln
which they define as "beam with pride, be delighted with, revel in" and
shepn nakhes defined as "derive pleasure or pride (especially from one's
children); enjoy."
I think its pretty interesting that it is taking multi word phrases to
describe what Yiddish says so concisely. And more interestingly that there
isn't an English equivalent. Languages develop from a need to express a
particular concept. Were these concepts not common enough to develop
singular terms for?
Adelle
sheldonlg
farginen : Taking joy in another person's joy.
shadenfreuder : Taking joy in another person's misfortune.
Evertjan.
> There is no such word in Yiddish as "shadenfreuder:
>
> http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/
I do not think you can use a site with such a small selection of Yiddish
words as proof that a word does not exist.
In German "die Schadenfreude" exists,
but "Schadenfreuder", is this English newspeak,
wouldn't that better be a "gloater" or a "epicaricist"? ;-)
Specifically excluding any German word older than say a century from also
being used in any Yiddish dialect would be impossible, meseems,
if there is no clearcut Yisddish alternative.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Sergei
Am I imagining things or did you just contradict yourself?
You said my test was no good for Shadenfreuder but then you questioned
where the word could come from.
I was concerned specifically with the term Sheldon
defined-"Shadenfreuder"
I found shadenfreude also, but that is not the word under discussion.
There are some words in Yiddish and German you can use in many ways,
but if that is so, they will all be listed in the dictionary. This one
wasn't.
If you ever figure out exactly what point you are trying to make,
please enlighten me. I have no idea.
Sergei
wrote:
> "sheldonlg" <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
+Actually, it's not that unusual when dealing with different
languages.
I've been learning Russian for several years. The Russians have
adopted quite a few words directly from English
simply because there is no Russian equivalent.They write the word in
Cyrillic script, as Russian is written, but the sound is exactly the
same as it is in English.
Sergei
>
Impossible.The word "schadenfreuer" is a NOUN.
Sergei
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is no such word in German as "schadenfreuder":
Here's what the German-English dictionary gives you on it:
No exact match found for your search 'schadenfreuder'.
Suggest or Ask for translation/definition
Other suggestions :
Schadenfreude,schadenfroh,Schadensbegrenzung,Schadensbilanz,Schadensersatz,
Search
Conjugate
Speak
Add to MyDictionary
Schadenfreude Schadenfreude f malicious joy, gloating
... sagte er mit einer gewissen Schadenfreude ... he gloated
Translation German - English Collins Dictionary
Sergei
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is no such word in German as "farginen".
No exact match found for your search 'farginen'.
Suggest or Ask for translation/definition
Other suggestions : farcieren,Farm,Farmer,Farmerin,Farmhaus,
Search
Conjugate
Speak
Add to MyDictionary
farcieren farcieren (farciert ptp) vt (Cook) to stuff
sheldonlg
So sue me for misspelling the word. I did the best I could. There is
even a song called "Shadenfreude" from the musical Avenue Q (a great
show, BTW).
sheldonlg
English does this all the time. Think of how many words are now English
words that came from other languages. That is why English has twice the
vocabulary of other languages.
sheldonlg
Avenue Q.
sheldonlg
Do you even realize how trivial and rude you came across here in you
violation of netiquette? Gee, a misspelling with an extra "r" at the
end in the spelling of a FOREIGN word? BFD.
Micha Berger
> There is no such word in German as "farginen".
Try "vergoennern" (or replace the oe with o-umlaut), and "goenen"
(without the "r", but also without the "ver-" prefix).
I also think it migrated into Abazit (modern Hebrew) as "lefargein".
Amitai, is that correct, or rumor?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone
mi...@aishdas.org or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507 your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D.
Sergei
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is quite beside the point. In German, one or two letters makes a
huge difference in the meaning of the word. The same is true in
Russian, a highly inflected language.
Amitai
> Sergei <ser...@russiamail.com> wrote:
> > There is no such word in German as "farginen".
>
> Try "vergoennern" (or replace the oe with o-umlaut), and "goenen"
> (without the "r", but also without the "ver-" prefix).
>
"vergoennen", without the "r".
> I also think it migrated into Abazit (modern Hebrew) as "lefargein".
> Amitai, is that correct, or rumor?
>
Yes. But it is much weaker than joy at someone else's good fortune.
The Israeli Hebrew "lefargen", and I suspect the Yiddish "farginnen"
as well. means "not to begrudge", which is one of the definitions my
G,-E. dictionary gives for "goennen".
In Yiddish and Hebrew it is more often used in the negative sense of
to begrudge, as "nisht farginnen" and "lo lefargen" respectively.
Amitai
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone
> mi...@aishdas.org or something in your life actually attracts morehttp://www.aishdas.org of the things that you appreciate and value into
Evertjan.
>> Specifically excluding any German word older than say a century from
>> also being used in any Yiddish dialect would be impossible, meseems,
>> if there is no clearcut Yisddish alternative.
[please do not quote signatures on usenet]
> Am I imagining things or did you just contradict yourself?
You are imagining things.
> You said my test was no good for Shadenfreuder
True, ther are far and far more words in yiddish than the omnes on that
site, so the fact the you did not find the word is not a proof of
nonexistence in Yiddisch.
> but then you questioned where the word could come from.
So? It is a good question and an interesting quest.
> I was concerned specifically with the term Sheldon
> defined-"Shadenfreuder"
> I found shadenfreude also, but that is not the word under discussion.
> There are some words in Yiddish and German you can use in many ways,
> but if that is so, they will all be listed in the dictionary. This one
> wasn't.
"they will all be listed in the dictionary"?
I think not, in fact I can prove not.
> If you ever figure out exactly what point you are trying to make,
> please enlighten me. I have no idea.
Not such a nice remark. methinks, Sergei.
mm
>> +Actually, it's not that unusual when dealing with different
>> languages.
>> I've been learning Russian for several years. The Russians have
>> adopted quite a few words directly from English
>> simply because there is no Russian equivalent.They write the word in
>> Cyrillic script, as Russian is written, but the sound is exactly the
>> same as it is in English.
>
>English does this all the time. Think of how many words are now English
>words that came from other languages. That is why English has twice the
>vocabulary of other languages.
But Adelle wasn't talking about loan words. She was saying there was
neither a loan word nor any single English word for the concept she
was talking about, joy becuase of someone else's joy. Instead, in
English, one needs a phrase to say what takes only a word in Yiddish.
Or two words. And then she was speculating why that was.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
sheldonlg
What are there something like 40 different words for snow in the Eskimo
language?
mirjam
Yiddish isn`t German with a Unique Accent , Yiddish is first of all a
Jewish Language. It has many German roots it also has many Hebrew
roots, as well as many other words and terms that were absorbed into
it and used in each area where it was spoken .
The Holocuast murdered most of the Yiddish speakers.
Yiddish was a lively langugage and before the Holocaust it was a
Secular langugae, whose speakers produced and created a whole world of
literature, theatre and almost a complete Jewish Culture. Quite a big
part of the Yiddish writers also wrote in Hebrew .
These days there is a revivalto Yiddish culture both in Israel and
outside Israel. Many Jews in Isreal who learned a lot of the Hebrew
translations of Yiddish writers [in fact this literatures is part of
Our Cultural background] now wish to read it in the original . There
is a lively Yiddish Theatre in Israel.
mirjam
Don Levey
We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
many more is something of a myth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Micha Berger
> We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
> many more is something of a myth:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
What about the number of words in classical Hebrew for happiness?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Sergei
> Sergei !
>
> Yiddish isn`t German with a Unique Accent , Yiddish is first of all a
> Jewish Language.
Micha explains it very well, as usual:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish.moderated/msg/c0e4a869f25b9c7f
Micha has a habit of rescuing me, and for that, I am very grateful.
Micha Berger
Eastern Yiddish. Western Yiddish is not really different enough from
the various forms of German to honestly be called its own language.
I suggested that Yiddish was a product of people fleeing the Crusades
who wanted to keep ties to the past and their old lifestyle and culture,
and thus brought Middle High German along with Hebrew and Aramaic to their
new homes, and the resulting combinations became the various dialects of
Yiddish (Litvish, Poilish, Galitzianish, Hungarish [although Hungarians
didn't stick as exclusively to Yiddish as others in Eastern Europe],
etc...
In Germany, however, German O lauded the well rounded individual; that
being a good Jew was on top of mastery of higher culture and academic
accomplishment. Therefore, they had less reason to maintain a separate
language.
So far I just spelled out a point I made earlier.
A nuance I skipped over altogether is that Yiddish wouldn't really have
been needed if not for the exodus from Germany. Note that it wasn't
German Jews who even created the language we call Yiddish. It was those
who fled.
By parallel, Ladino isn't a Spanish-Jewish phenomenon, it was those who
were expelled from Spain who crafted it. (Although I'd consider Ladino,
like Western Yiddish, a dialect, not a distinct language.)
In Germany and in Spain, respectively, these wouldn't be a tie to the
past, but rather just bad German or Spanish. The language only has
meaning to the exiled community.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Steve Goldfarb
>> What are there something like 40 different words for snow in the Eskimo
>> language?
>We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
>many more is something of a myth:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
Not to mention the vast number of words we have for "cow." Probably more
words for cow than snow.
On this topic, I'm reminded of a joke - or at least it was presented as a
joke - about the lack of a yiddish word for "disappointed." Don't even
know if it's actually the case - but in the joke, (to paraphrase it) two
guys are discussing whether or not there's word for disappointed in
Yiddish, so one guy describes a scenario in Yiddish to his grandmother,
something about dropping out of medical school maybe, and she replies
something-something "azoi disappointed!" (i.e., she uses the English word
within her Yiddish sentence)
--s
--
mm
Maybe it's a loan word.
>--s
Abe Kohen
"mirjam" <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote in message
news:3c7fae50-c070-4d76...@d34g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
Mirjam,
While I speak "religious" Yiddish fluently (or at least used to) I am not so
enamored by it. One reason is that at least half of Israel is not Ashkenazi
and have no "zika" to Yiddish and might even find the name of the language
offensive - ma ani lo Yehudi? - as the name implies. When my Syrian friend
in sinnergogue says "Yiddishkeit" I wince.
Also w.r.t. a previous post by another poster, I have never heard Yiddish
speakers use the term schadenfreude. That term is strictly German IMHO. So
my maternal grandfather who spoke hochdeutsch might have used it but not in
a Yiddish conversation. A religious Jew might use the Hebrew "Simcha La-eid"
or "Simcha La-id" instead.
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:hai59l$qf6$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
All beautiful girls' names for beautiful girls.
Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
(My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
Best,
Abe
meir b.
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 18:17:33 +0000 (UTC), "Steve Goldfarb"
>
>
>
>
>
> <s...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >>> What are there something like 40 different words for snow in the Eskimo
> >>> language?
>
> >>We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
> >>many more is something of a myth:
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
>
> >Not to mention the vast number of words we have for "cow." Probably more
> >words for cow than snow.
>
> >On this topic, I'm reminded of a joke - or at least it was presented as a
> >joke - about the lack of a yiddish word for "disappointed." Don't even
> >know if it's actually the case - but in the joke, (to paraphrase it) two
> >guys are discussing whether or not there's word for disappointed in
> >Yiddish, so one guy describes a scenario in Yiddish to his grandmother,
> >something about dropping out of medical school maybe, and she replies
> >something-something "azoi disappointed!" (i.e., she uses the English word
> >within her Yiddish sentence)
>
> Maybe it's a loan word.
I've been away for a few weeks, so I may be unaware, but is Josh
no longer among us? It's not like him to miss the opportunity of
setting the record straight on an old Yiddish joke: Two brothers are
searching, in vain, for the Yiddish word for "disappointed." They
finally come up with the idea of telling their mother they can't come
for their weekly visit; since she speaks no English, she'll certainly
express her diappointment with the Yiddish word. Her response is,
"Oy, mein kind, ich bin azoi disappointed."
For the record, the Yiddish word is "entoisht."
Meir B.
mm
You have inferred it, but the name doesn't imply it. Nothing about
the word means Sephardim aren't Jews. There were millions of Yiddish
speakers and they didn't think Sephardim were not Jews. What more
proof do you need? A) There is no reason why Jews can't have several
languages. (In fact they do.) And there is no reason why each of them
couldn't be called "Jewish" however one says that in the given
language.
My mother called Yiddish "Jewish". When she spoke in English, she
said that she spoke "Jewish", becaue Yiddish in English is Jewish.
In Spanish and maybe Ladino, Jewish is Judaico. There is no reason
Sephardim can't call Ladino Judaico, and translate that to Jewish when
they speak Englsh.
> When my Syrian friend
>in sinnergogue says "Yiddishkeit" I wince.
There is no reason he can't use Yiddish words too. He probably knows
several languages. Why don't you say "Ritos religiosos de los
judíos" and that will make things even.
>
>Also w.r.t. a previous post by another poster, I have never heard Yiddish
>speakers use the term schadenfreude.
Neither have I. I wondered about that part.
> That term is strictly German IMHO. So
>my maternal grandfather who spoke hochdeutsch might have used it but not in
>a Yiddish conversation. A religious Jew might use the Hebrew "Simcha La-eid"
>or "Simcha La-id" instead.
Despite what Joe said, there is plenty of Hebrew in Yiddish,
especially when it comes to things related to or even remotely related
to Judaism.
BTW, when I was in Yerushalayim, at a religious bookstore, I noted
that they had Shabbes spelled shin, aleph, beis, ayin, sov, a phonetic
Yiddish spelling of Shabbes, even though Hebrew words in Yiddish are
normally spelled as they are spelled in Hebrew. I presume they didn't
spell it shin, beis, sov because too many people would pronounce that
Shabbat. This just shows how complicated things are. Should
Ashkenazim be offended that some spell the word with five letters
instead of its proper Yiddish spelling of 3 letters? And how common
is it to spell it this way?
>Best,
And also to you. Moadim l'simcha (there's that simcha again.)
>Abe
Amitai
I understand that Hebrew letters are not allowed, I have named the
letters instead.):
"The first action formally undertaken by a government was in the
Soviet Union in 1920, with the abolition of the separate etymological
orthography for words of Semitic origin. This was extended twelve
years later with the elimination of the five separate final-form
consonants (as.indicated in the table below {omitted _A.H.]) which
were, however, widely reintroduced in 1961. The changes are both
illustrated in the way the name of the author Sholem Aleichem is
written. His own work uses the form "shin-lamed-vav-mem--`ayin-lamed-
yod-khaf-final mem" but in Soviet publication this is respelled
phonetically to "shin-qometz aleph-lamed-`ayin-mem--aleph-lamed-double
yod-khaf-`ayin-mem" also dispensing with the separate final-form mem
and using the initial/medial form instead. This can be seen, together
with a respelling of the name of the protagonist of his Tevye der
milkhiker (originally "tet-bhet-yod-heh", changed to "tet-`ayin-double
vav-yod-heh"), by comparing the title pages of that work in the U.S.
and Soviet editions illustrated next to this paragraph ."
However, seeing this orthography at a religious bookstore in
Yerushalayim is highly unusual.
> >Best,
>
> And also to you. Moadim l'simcha (there's that simcha again.)
>
Hagim u-zemanim lesason.
Amitai
> >Abe
>
> --
>
> Meir
>
>
Micha Berger
> In Spanish and maybe Ladino, Jewish is Judaico. There is no reason
> Sephardim can't call Ladino Judaico, and translate that to Jewish when
> they speak Englsh.
But they wouldn't, because they have more awareness that other Jews exist,
that Ladino isn't "the language of the Jews".
I happen to agree with Abe's other point. In an era where the Ashk and
Seph Jewish communnities geographically overlap, why do we have a need
to use a language that divides us? For example, why would someone giving
a Torah lecture (shiur) need to put up a linguistic hurdle in front of
much of his audience?
(Speakng of shiurim, that's about all I can follow in Yiddish.)
...
> BTW, when I was in Yerushalayim, at a religious bookstore, I noted
> that they had Shabbes spelled shin, aleph, beis, ayin, sov, a phonetic
> Yiddish spelling of Shabbes, even though Hebrew words in Yiddish are
> normally spelled as they are spelled in Hebrew. I presume they didn't
> spell it shin, beis, sov because too many people would pronounce that
> Shabbat. This just shows how complicated things are. Should
> Ashkenazim be offended that some spell the word with five letters
> instead of its proper Yiddish spelling of 3 letters? And how common
> is it to spell it this way?
It's a YIVO-ism. Like the material my HS provided (decades ago) for the
NY State Regents test in Yiddish (as a foreign language), which I recall
having "yuntef" spelled yuf-alef-nun-tes-ayin-fei rather than the usual
spelling as though it were still the Hebrew "Yom Tov" just being pronounce
"yuntef".
A product of Yiddishists who wanted Yiddish to be a real language, not
a creole, and therefore used Yiddish spelling for everything.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)
Sergei
I'll tell you a humorous story about my family. My Grandparents and
parents used to speak Yiddish among themselves, especially when they
didn't want their children to hear what they were saying. At one
family meeting, I had taken high school German(Hochdeutsch) for almost
a year. They began speaking Yiddish and I recognized very well what
they were saying. They saw the smirk on my face and suddenly realized
that their Yiddish was no longer a valid secret code. After that, they
didn't speak Yiddish in my presence anymore.
Nick Cramer
> [ . . . ]
> "The first action formally undertaken by a government was in the
> Soviet Union in 1920, with the abolition of the separate etymological
> orthography for words of Semitic origin. This was extended twelve
> years later with the elimination of the five separate final-form
> consonants (as.indicated in the table below {omitted _A.H.]) which
> were, however, widely reintroduced in 1961. The changes are both
> illustrated in the way the name of the author Sholem Aleichem is
> written. His own work uses the form "shin-lamed-vav-mem--`ayin-lamed-
> yod-khaf-final mem" but in Soviet publication this is respelled
> phonetically to "shin-qometz aleph-lamed-`ayin-mem--aleph-lamed-double
> yod-khaf-`ayin-mem" also dispensing with the separate final-form mem
> and using the initial/medial form instead. This can be seen, together
> with a respelling of the name of the protagonist of his Tevye der
> milkhiker (originally "tet-bhet-yod-heh", changed to "tet-`ayin-double
> vav-yod-heh"), by comparing the title pages of that work in the U.S.
> and Soviet editions illustrated next to this paragraph ."
The Soviets did the same thing when they lowered the Iron Curtain over
Eastern Europe. My Grandmother's town, Tevador-fulva, in the
Carpeto-Ukraine section of Hungary, was given a Russian name, which had to
be written in Cyrillic on the envelopes of letters.
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
mm
Berger) wrote:
>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> In Spanish and maybe Ladino, Jewish is Judaico. There is no reason
>> Sephardim can't call Ladino Judaico, and translate that to Jewish when
>> they speak Englsh.
>
>But they wouldn't, because they have more awareness that other Jews exist,
>that Ladino isn't "the language of the Jews".
I don't think they would either, but I still think there could be more
than one language whose name in English was Jewish. If it caught on,
we could call one Jewish-L and the other Jewish-Y (like in Spanish (in
Guagatmala and maybe all of America or the world) they distinguish two
letters of their alphabet as Beh-vaca and Beh-burro.** Around here
there are two Marriottsville Roads. One is called on the map and on
the street signs Marriottsville Road (2). Marriottsville can't be
found anymore, but they both went there, one from the north and the
other from the northeast.
**The sound of b and v in American afaik Spanish is the same, part way
between an English or Hebrew b and v, like a b without the explosive
part; or like a v with the lips softly together, instead of the
upper lip not touching the lower lip and the upper front teeth
touching the lower lip which is wrapped over the lower front teeth,
like an English V. It took a while to learn but I can say it.
>
>I happen to agree with Abe's other point. In an era where the Ashk and
>Seph Jewish communnities geographically overlap, why do we have a need
>to use a language that divides us?
I know you know this. Their goal is not to divide us but to unite
themselves with all the Jews who spoke Yiddish, including the millions
murdered by the nazis and the millions of children they would have
had.
My rabbi's and his parents etc. were O all their lives, and his kids
didn't know any Yiddish until I think they started learning in high
school. At the aufruf for one, and maybe all three, afterwards he had
to translate his talk into English so his mother, the daughter of an O
cantor, would know what he said. I think my rabbi knew Yiddish maybe
but used it very little. Now one kid lives in Jerusalem and one
nearby in Beitar Ilit, and they speak Yiddish and English at home. One
told me he doesnt' want to speak Hebrew because it recognizes the
government too much, and the other didn't say anything negative but I
think he said he liked Yiddish. I think everyone in both families
can speak Hebrew too, at least when they need to. The store, the
radio.
>For example, why would someone giving
>a Torah lecture (shiur) need to put up a linguistic hurdle in front of
>much of his audience?
>
>(Speakng of shiurim, that's about all I can follow in Yiddish.)
>
>...
>> BTW, when I was in Yerushalayim, at a religious bookstore, I noted
FTR, the bookstore is about a short block west of King George St.
close to where it interesects with the Beh Yehuda mall. There ia a
park on the east side of King George there, with bathrooms, and the
bookstore is on the south side of the south border of that park.
I don't think I read this on a book but on some sort of banner on the
wall.
>> that they had Shabbes spelled shin, aleph, beis, ayin, sov, a phonetic
>> Yiddish spelling of Shabbes, even though Hebrew words in Yiddish are
>> normally spelled as they are spelled in Hebrew. I presume they didn't
>> spell it shin, beis, sov because too many people would pronounce that
>> Shabbat. This just shows how complicated things are. Should
>> Ashkenazim be offended that some spell the word with five letters
>> instead of its proper Yiddish spelling of 3 letters? And how common
>> is it to spell it this way?
>
>It's a YIVO-ism. Like the material my HS provided (decades ago) for the
>NY State Regents test in Yiddish (as a foreign language), which I recall
>having "yuntef" spelled yuf-alef-nun-tes-ayin-fei rather than the usual
>spelling as though it were still the Hebrew "Yom Tov" just being pronounce
>"yuntef".
<
>A product of Yiddishists who wanted Yiddish to be a real language, not
>a creole, and therefore used Yiddish spelling for everything.
You and Amitai have very different views on this. Maybe both of you
are right, maybe only one??
Neither of you agree with me, which is fine since I was just guessing.
I'm very glad I posted and very glad you both answered.
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha
--
Meir
Sergei
speak Yiddish.
mirjam
> What about the number of words in classical Hebrew for happiness?
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
Classical Hebrew ?
what is this ?
Anyway Here are your Hebrew words for Happiness = Osher
=Orah , bracha, gad, goral, gila, gilat nefesh, ditza , nachat,
neimurt , sipuk nafshi , rewacha, rina , sviut razon, simcha ,
ta`anug , and there are more ....
mirjam
mirjam
> who wanted to keep ties to the past and their old lifestyle and culture,
> and thus brought Middle High German along with Hebrew and Aramaic to their
> new homes, and the resulting combinations became the various dialects of
> Yiddish (Litvish, Poilish, Galitzianish, Hungarish [although Hungarians
> didn't stick as exclusively to Yiddish as others in Eastern Europe],
> etc...
Ps Hugarian Neture Karta spoke [speak] Yiddish , the less religious
Hungarians preffered Hungarian and German .
> By parallel, Ladino isn't a Spanish-Jewish phenomenon, it was those who
> were expelled from Spain who crafted it. (Although I'd consider Ladino,
> like Western Yiddish, a dialect, not a distinct language.)
I think that by Now Both Yoddish and Ladino are Acknowledges as
Langugaes in their own right , and are not considered any more to be
just jargons ,
The Spanish Academy is very interested in Ladino as it has preserved
some terminologies that were lost to Contemporary Spanish talkers .
mirjam
mirjam
ladies , there were some who spoke amongst themselves in a langugae
that sounded familiar , but i missed some of the words. After a time i
couldn`t resist my curiousity , ande asked them what it was . To my
amazement they explained to me that they all came from Teman [Yemen]
ages ago and that they spoke a kind of Arameic , which was their
`Jewish langugae` , that they spoke amongst themselves.
mirjam
mirjam
My Yiddish Dictionary is Yiddish _Hebrew and thus all words are in
Hebrew letters .
Disapointed says my Dictionary is Antoishter [ i am not sure about the
Latin spelling ] thus i will write it in Hebrew
אנטוישטער
Alef, nun, tet, yod, shin, tet, ayin,resh
mirjam
mirjam
you will be surprised that now one hears about children learning
Yiddish , and not all of the learners are what you call Ashkenaziem ,
i know quite some people of various background who find this
interesting ,
The Yiddish Theatre is showing to full halls ,,,
>
> Also w.r.t. a previous post by another poster, I have never heard Yiddish
> speakers use the term schadenfreude. That term is strictly German IMHO. So
Schadenfreude is Strictly GERMAN like you say !!!
mirjam
Micha Berger
>> By parallel, Ladino isn't a Spanish-Jewish phenomenon, it was those who
>> were expelled from Spain who crafted it. (Although I'd consider Ladino,
>> like Western Yiddish, a dialect, not a distinct language.)
> I think that by Now Both Yoddish and Ladino are Acknowledges as
> Langugaes in their own right , and are not considered any more to be
> just jargons ,
However, that might be for political reasons. South American Spanish is
considered a dialect of the same language as Castillian Spanish, but
Ladino is far more comprehensible for a Castillian speaker. Which is why
I personally wouldn't consider it a distinct language. My criteria
aren't the same as a professionals. I am just interested in whether
people can understand each other.
> The Spanish Academy is very interested in Ladino as it has preserved
> some terminologies that were lost to Contemporary Spanish talkers .
Interesting.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Harry Weiss
> > I suggested that Yiddish was a product of people fleeing the Crusades
> > who wanted to keep ties to the past and their old lifestyle and culture,
> > and thus brought Middle High German along with Hebrew and Aramaic to their
> > new homes, and the resulting combinations became the various dialects of
> > Yiddish (Litvish, Poilish, Galitzianish, Hungarish [although Hungarians
> > didn't stick as exclusively to Yiddish as others in Eastern Europe],
> > etc...
> Yes Micha there are various dialicts or versions of Yiddish !!!
> Ps Hugarian Neture Karta spoke [speak] Yiddish , the less religious
> Hungarians preffered Hungarian and German .
Your post seems to say that Hungarians are either Nuture Karta or less
religous.
My relative are heavily zionistic (even those that may be from Chassidic
groups close to Satmar, are very very pro Israel). Those from the prior
generation spoke primariy Yiddish as well as Hungarian. (Men more
Yiddish then the women).
Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
> > By parallel, Ladino isn't a Spanish-Jewish phenomenon, it was those who
> > were expelled from Spain who crafted it. (Although I'd consider Ladino,
> > like Western Yiddish, a dialect, not a distinct language.)
> I think that by Now Both Yoddish and Ladino are Acknowledges as
> Langugaes in their own right , and are not considered any more to be
> just jargons ,
> The Spanish Academy is very interested in Ladino as it has preserved
> some terminologies that were lost to Contemporary Spanish talkers .
> mirjam
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> Hi, Everyone;
>>
>> Hope you don't mind helping a little.
>>
>> An acquaintance posted the following to Facebook: "lefargen, farginen - to
>> open space, to share pleasure; the exact opposite of the verb, "to envy."
>> While envy means disliking or resenting the happiness of others, farginen
>> means make a pact with another individual's pleasure or happiness. And the
>> opposite of shadenfreude, too, I would imagine."
>>
>> Well, firstly - how accurate is her definition for farginen?
>>
>> Secondly - can you tell me other Jewish/Yiddish/ Hebrew words/concepts
>> which
>> involve one person feeling or taking part in, someone else's joy? There is
>> kvelling. What else?
>>
>> Want to see if I can get a newsletter article out of this concept. I
>> really
>> like the notion of sharing in and feeling someone else's happiness.
>>
>> Thanks much!
>>
>> Adelle
>
>>You can look it up yourself:
>>
>
>
> Well, not really. A - the link isn't working well today. But a dictionary
> isn't helpful if you don't know the word I you want to look up.
>
> I have a general concept in my head and am seeking works that fill that
> concept. The premise is that English doesn't have single words that describe
> these feelings and actions, but Yiddish and Hebrew do. Kvell is to burst
> with pride, but not pride itself. If I understand farginen, it is to
> experience joy for another person's joy. The closest I can describe that is
> to experience vicariously - yet that isn't accurate either, and is still a
> phrase and not single words. Hard to use a word dictionary/translator when
> you have a phrase and not a single word.
It's not a single word, but The yiddish dictionary gave me:
wish well; not begrudge, not envy; indulge which sounds right.
There is even an expression "fargin _yourself_!
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Ksiva v'Chatima Tova.
Amitai
[SNIP]
It's not a single word, but The yiddish dictionary gave me:
wish well; not begrudge, not envy; indulge which sounds right.
There is even an expression "fargin _yourself_!
Moshe:
You need to do some catching up. There has been a fair amount of
discussion on this issue. However, this is a good opportunity for me
to get back into the the thead.
You write:
> It's not a single word, but The yiddish dictionary gave me:
> wish well; not begrudge, not envy; indulge which sounds right.
>
> There is even an expression "fargin _yourself_" !
>
> --
We were discussing the modern Hebrew* verb "lefargen".
Your comment raises a problem, but not with "lefargen le`atzmekha",
which is quite often used in the sense of "to indulge oneself". There
is no problem in the present or future tenses (mefargen ...,
afargen... respectively), but grammar raises its ugly (not really!)
head when we get to the past tense. Realizing that "pheh" ("peh
rafeh") is not really "f" but "ph" and that we cannot start a word
without a "dagesh, it should" be "pirganti", which no self respecting
Israeli would deign to pronounce. And suppose I wanted to indulge in
the hitpael in order to tell you that I indulged myself, I would have
to say "hitparganti".
Finally, there is the noun "firgun" denoting the property of *non
begrudgement*. It will never get past the Academy of the Hebrew
Language unless the "f" is changed to "p", so I guess it will be used
unsanctioned for the next century or two.
Amitai
*Micha: ( refuse to use the term "abazit", which I have never seen
anywhere except on this newsgroup. A.
> Moshe Schorr
> It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
> The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
> May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
> btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
> Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
> Ksiva v'Chatima Tova
Moshe: There is almost a year to go before the "Yamim Noraim", so why
anticipate? A.
Abe Kohen
"Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hauibt$62d$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>> > I suggested that Yiddish was a product of people fleeing the Crusades
>> > who wanted to keep ties to the past and their old lifestyle and
>> > culture,
>> > and thus brought Middle High German along with Hebrew and Aramaic to
>> > their
>> > new homes, and the resulting combinations became the various dialects
>> > of
>> > Yiddish (Litvish, Poilish, Galitzianish, Hungarish [although Hungarians
>> > didn't stick as exclusively to Yiddish as others in Eastern Europe],
>> > etc...
>> Yes Micha there are various dialicts or versions of Yiddish !!!
>> Ps Hugarian Neture Karta spoke [speak] Yiddish , the less religious
>> Hungarians preffered Hungarian and German .
>
> Your post seems to say that Hungarians are either Nuture Karta or less
> religous.
>
> My relative are heavily zionistic (even those that may be from Chassidic
> groups close to Satmar, are very very pro Israel). Those from the prior
> generation spoke primariy Yiddish as well as Hungarian. (Men more
> Yiddish then the women).
>
> Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
> The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
I took her statement to mean "less religious" than the Satmar (as if Satmar
or NK is the highest madrega (Eng: step or level) of religiosity).
Up until the 60s her statement would have been quite correct if she used the
terms Auberlander and Unterlander (Oiberlender ind Interlender). As such my
very pious aunt knew no Yiddish when she landed in America. She
subsequentally learned Yiddish to keep up with her boys (now men). My uncles
OTOH learned Yiddish in yeshiva, but at home spoke Hungarian, and some like
my maternal grandfather spoke Hungarian and Hochdeutsch (in order to read
books of learning : science, history, etc.).
Myself, I knew no Yiddish when I came to this country as a refugee, but
learned it in yeshiva before I learned English. (In college I taught myself
to read German by reading Schlichting's Boundary Layer Theory in the
original. Couldn't get hold of the English translation, but the library had
a German copy which no one was using.)
Best,
Abe
(Josh, time for your joke!)
Abe Kohen
Pirgun, not to be confused with pirgiyot!
Is it "Hanasich Pilif?" (Prince Philip).
Best,
Abe
"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c69f9bb5-fe2a-4c29...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Amitai
> Amitai,
>
> Pirgun, not to be confused with pirgiyot!
>
> Is it "Hanasich Pilif?" (Prince Philip).
>
No prob! Just read it backwards. As another less backward - if
fictional - "nasikh" (prince) once said: "You yourself, sir, should be
old as I am, if, like a crab, you could go backward."
Amitai
> Best,
> Abe
>
>[remainder snipped]
Harry Weiss
Among Oiberlanders there were more that spoke mostly Hungarian, but the
men spoke Yiddish (at least the more Jewish educated one, having spent
years in Yeshivas). When I was young my father a'h spoke more Hungarian
than Yiddish with his sister and more Yiddish with his brothers. In their
later years, with the exception of speaking to my uncle in Israel, they
usually spoke English/
My my mother mroe of an Unterlander speaks Yiddish as her native language
but spoke mostly Hungarian to here sister (Dati Leumi in Israel) and
Yiddish to her brothers (Satmar type Chassidim in the US and Canda)
> Myself, I knew no Yiddish when I came to this country as a refugee, but
> learned it in yeshiva before I learned English. (In college I taught myself
> to read German by reading Schlichting's Boundary Layer Theory in the
> original. Couldn't get hold of the English translation, but the library had
> a German copy which no one was using.)
> Best,
> Abe
> (Josh, time for your joke!)
Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
> We were discussing the modern Hebrew* verb "lefargen".
>
> Your comment raises a problem, but not with "lefargen le`atzmekha",
> which is quite often used in the sense of "to indulge oneself". There
> is no problem in the present or future tenses (mefargen ...,
> afargen... respectively), but grammar raises its ugly (not really!)
> head when we get to the past tense. Realizing that "pheh" ("peh
> rafeh") is not really "f" but "ph" and that we cannot start a word
> without a "dagesh, it should" be "pirganti", which no self respecting
> Israeli would deign to pronounce. And suppose I wanted to indulge in
> the hitpael in order to tell you that I indulged myself, I would have
> to say "hitparganti".
>
> Finally, there is the noun "firgun" denoting the property of *non
> begrudgement*. It will never get past the Academy of the Hebrew
> Language unless the "f" is changed to "p", so I guess it will be used
> unsanctioned for the next century or two.
>
with its past tense conjugation. But do modern Israeli speakers really
bother with such nuances? How many Israelis would say "hayiti biVnei
Veraq?
In my youth we heard of another Hebrew verb borrowed from colloquial
English, which may or may not be still in common use. And it has the
opposite difficulty, requiring a veth where the English has a "b"
sound. Levalshet. As in "bevakasha, tafsiq levalshet". Are such
expressions still in common use in Israel? I still occasionally hear
it (and use it) here in New York.
GEK
Amitai
wrote:
> On Oct 12, 8:22 am, Amitai <chr0...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote:
>
>
>
> > We were discussing the modern Hebrew* verb "lefargen".
>
> > Your comment raises a problem, but not with "lefargen le`atzmekha",
> > which is quite often used in the sense of "to indulge oneself". There
> > is no problem in the present or future tenses (mefargen ...,
> > afargen... respectively), but grammar raises its ugly (not really!)
> > head when we get to the past tense. Realizing that "pheh" ("peh
> > rafeh") is not really "f" but "ph" and that we cannot start a word
> > without a "dagesh, it should" be "pirganti", which no self respecting
> > Israeli would deign to pronounce. And suppose I wanted to indulge in
> > the hitpael in order to tell you that I indulged myself, I would have
> > to say "hitparganti".
>
> > Finally, there is the noun "firgun" denoting the property of *non
> > begrudgement*. It will never get past the Academy of the Hebrew
> > Language unless the "f" is changed to "p", so I guess it will be used
> > unsanctioned for the next century or two.
>
> I had not heard of this verb lefargen, And I do see the issue you take
> with its past tense conjugation. But do modern Israeli speakers really
> bother with such nuances? How many Israelis would say "hayiti biVnei
> Veraq?
>
(though we don't have much to be lighthearted about in Israel
nowadays).
Nobody would ever put a "dagesh" the "phe" or remove it from the
"peh" in a proper noun adopted from a foreign language: Philip, Paris,
Berlin, etc... To say "ani tas le-phariz" or "bikarti be-bherlin"
would be an affectation. On the other hand most Hebrew-literate
Israelis would say "hayiti bi-bhnei braq" and "be-pheta`h tikvah". The
grammatical rule arose to make pronunciation easier, so it is usually
obeyed (by those who know it) in the case of Hebrew proper nouns. The
second "b" in "bnei braq" is part of the town's.name and would not be
modified. Something similar is happening with common nouns, to my
chagrin: You now hear schoolchildren speaking of going "la-beit sefer"
instead of "le-bheit ha-sepher", but that is another issue.
> In my youth we heard of another Hebrew verb borrowed from colloquial
> English, which may or may not be still in common use. And it has the
> opposite difficulty, requiring a veth where the English has a "b"
> sound. Levalshet. As in "bevakasha, tafsiq levalshet". Are such
> expressions still in common use in Israel? I still occasionally hear
> it (and use it) here in New York.
>
I am not familiar with "le-bhalshet" which I will now begin to use.
Thanks. :-)
The practice is quite common. the noun "birbur" (nattering) is
converted to "le-bharber". The very common "le-phashel" (to fail
badly) comes from the Arabic "phashla" (failure), which is used in
Hebrew as such, but is slowly being Hebraized to "phishul". It won't
be long before someone inserts the "dagesh", to form "pishul" ,
"pishalti", and so on.
Amitai
> GEK
>
Arthur Kamlet
Amitai <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote:
>The practice is quite common. the noun "birbur" (nattering) is
Now "nattering" is a word not heard every day.
Made (in)famous by Spiro Agnew's speechwriter, William Safire, who just
recently passed away, Agnew spoke and was villified for, directing his
anger at those "nattering nabobs of negativity."
Whoops, that newspaper found negativism, rather than negativity.
A better link:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976831065#
--
ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH
mm
wrote:
That's so interesting.
In Netanya, I went to a Temani synagogue. After each aliya in Hebrew,
they read the same thing in the Targum, the Aramaic translation. I
guess some understood both, and others one or the other, depending on
their age.
mm
wrote:
>>
When I was between 5 and 10, on school mornings, I would listen to the
radio when having breakfast, because my mother was already listening
when I got downstairs. It might have been the Mutual Broadcasting
Network. All talk afaicr, no or very little music. (There was no
call-in then, and no "host" for morning radio, in the 50's, but there
was news and regular and one-time presenters of topics.)
When I was between 8 and 10 I heard someone on the radio talking about
"The right hand of the Lord does valiantly...", and -- I remember this
all clearly -- he said that it said "The right hand", because Hebrew
had no words for intangible things, and he said here the phrase meant
strength, but there was no word in Hebrew for strength. He might
have been a minister, or less likely a Bible scholar or some such,
because no one else talked about such things. I guarantee he wasn't a
Jew or I would have noticed that.
I'm smart but slow-witted. Plus as a little boy with nothing but good
or at least decent school teachers up to then, I hadn't learned that
people can be completely wrong. It took about 5 minutes to walk to
school and I rememeber thinking along the way for part of that time
about what he had said. It seemed strange, since even at age 8 I
already knew one or two Hebrew words for strength, probably just oz,
but maybe another one too. But I figured he wouldn't say it if there
weren't a lot of truth to it. Apparently though, he "knew" false
things about Hebrew and knew nothing about poetry.
(I knew words for other intangible things also, but my thinking didn't
get that far. I'm still very literal, and I guess single-minded, and I
concentrated only on "strength".)
This was the first piece in the puzzle I eventually solved about a)
how foolish people can be, b) how little credentials can mean, and c)
how little gentiles know about almost anything Jewish, despite the
fact that they think otherwise.
BTW, the phrase is from Psalms 118:15 and 16.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16339
http://www.pleasedaven.com/tehillim/psa118.htm
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Sergei <ser...@russiamail.com> wrote:
>> There is no such word in German as "farginen".
>
> Try "vergoennern" (or replace the oe with o-umlaut), and "goenen"
> (without the "r", but also without the "ver-" prefix).
>
> I also think it migrated into Abazit (modern Hebrew) as "lefargein".
> Amitai, is that correct, or rumor?
I'm not Amitai, but I can verify your supposition. It's a great word!
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Ksiva v'Chatima Tova.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> On this topic, I'm reminded of a joke - or at least it was presented as a
> joke - about the lack of a yiddish word for "disappointed." Don't even
> know if it's actually the case - but in the joke, (to paraphrase it) two
> guys are discussing whether or not there's word for disappointed in
> Yiddish, so one guy describes a scenario in Yiddish to his grandmother,
> something about dropping out of medical school maybe, and she replies
> something-something "azoi disappointed!" (i.e., she uses the English word
> within her Yiddish sentence)
I heard that joke as well. I was later informed that there _is+ a
word for disappointed. It's "aintoished".
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>
>>> We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
>>> many more is something of a myth:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
>>
>
And girls who are not beautiful may not have those names? :-)
> Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
>
> (My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
It's interesting how that name is for men for Ashkenazim and for
women for Sfardim. Same with the name Yonah. Which I find very
surprising since there is a Biblical "Yonah", a male.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Great to see that by-line.
> I've been away for a few weeks,
Good to see you back. Hope you enjoyed whatever you did.
mm
<hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>> > I suggested that Yiddish was a product of people fleeing the Crusades
>> > who wanted to keep ties to the past and their old lifestyle and culture,
>> > and thus brought Middle High German along with Hebrew and Aramaic to their
>> > new homes, and the resulting combinations became the various dialects of
>> > Yiddish (Litvish, Poilish, Galitzianish, Hungarish [although Hungarians
>> > didn't stick as exclusively to Yiddish as others in Eastern Europe],
>> > etc...
>> Yes Micha there are various dialicts or versions of Yiddish !!!
>> Ps Hugarian Neture Karta spoke [speak] Yiddish , the less religious
>> Hungarians preffered Hungarian and German .
>
>Your post seems to say that Hungarians are either Nuture Karta or less
>religous.
It does sound that way, but I assumed there was a third category or
even more than 3 that were just not discussed.
>
>My relative are heavily zionistic (even those that may be from Chassidic
>groups close to Satmar, are very very pro Israel). Those from the prior
Very interesting.
>generation spoke primariy Yiddish as well as Hungarian. (Men more
>Yiddish then the women).
>
>Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
>The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
>
>
>
>
>
>> > By parallel, Ladino isn't a Spanish-Jewish phenomenon, it was those who
>> > were expelled from Spain who crafted it. (Although I'd consider Ladino,
>> > like Western Yiddish, a dialect, not a distinct language.)
>> I think that by Now Both Yoddish and Ladino are Acknowledges as
>> Langugaes in their own right , and are not considered any more to be
>> just jargons ,
>
>> The Spanish Academy is very interested in Ladino as it has preserved
>> some terminologies that were lost to Contemporary Spanish talkers .
>> mirjam
--
Meir
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> I happen to agree with Abe's other point. In an era where the Ashk and
> Seph Jewish communnities geographically overlap, why do we have a need
> a Torah lecture (shiur) need to put up a linguistic hurdle in front of
> much of his audience?
Good question. Possibly because they themselves learned in Yiddish
originally so for them, _that's_ the language for "talking Torah".
Another reason might be that (as this thread has discussed) Yiddish
is a very "spicy" language with many "juicy" words which make it
easier for them to develop their idea.
> (Speakng of shiurim, that's about all I can follow in Yiddish.)
???????????
Amitai
This is a surprise to me. If you had said that they came from Iraq, I
would have recognized them to be members of a small group of Aramaic
speaking Iraqi Jews who call themselves "nash didan" ("Our People" in
Aramaic). See their website:
http://nashdidan.co.il/
Amitai
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>> BTW, when I was in Yerushalayim, at a religious bookstore, I noted
>
> FTR, the bookstore is about a short block west of King George St.
> close to where it interesects with the Beh Yehuda mall. There ia a
> park on the east side of King George there, with bathrooms, and the
> bookstore is on the south side of the south border of that park.
>
> I don't think I read this on a book but on some sort of banner on
> the wall.
Hmm, that is not a particular "religious" area. I suspect it was a
"joke" in honor of the many tourists who frequent that neighborhood.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I heard that during the War for Independence, they used Yemenite
soldiers, who spoke Aramaic as radio operators. The Arabs, many of
whom spoke Hebrew, couldn't understand their Aramaic!
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> [SNIP]
>
> It's not a single word, but The yiddish dictionary gave me:
> wish well; not begrudge, not envy; indulge which sounds right.
>
> There is even an expression "fargin _yourself_!
>
> Moshe:
>
> You need to do some catching up.
That's what I'm trying to do, catch up. I was out the whole week of
Succos and didn't post on Sunday, because it was "Yontef" in Ch"ul.
> There has been a fair amount of discussion on this issue.
Yes, more than I expected.
> However, this is a good opportunity for me to get back into the
> the thead.
Glad to be the peg for you to hang your hat! :-)
> You write:
>> It's not a single word, but The yiddish dictionary gave me:
>> wish well; not begrudge, not envy; indulge which sounds right.
>>
>> There is even an expression "fargin _yourself_" !
>>
>> --
> We were discussing the modern Hebrew* verb "lefargen".
>
> Your comment raises a problem, but not with "lefargen le`atzmekha",
> which is quite often used in the sense of "to indulge oneself". There
> is no problem in the present or future tenses (mefargen ...,
> afargen... respectively), but grammar raises its ugly (not really!)
> head when we get to the past tense. Realizing that "pheh" ("peh
> rafeh") is not really "f" but "ph" and that we cannot start a word
> without a "dagesh, it should" be "pirganti",
Why? if it's a loan word from a different language, why must it
follow the rules of Hebrew grammar and punctuation.
> which no self respecting Israeli would deign to pronounce.
Good.
> And suppose I wanted to indulge in the hitpael in order to tell
> you that I indulged myself, I would have to say "hitparganti".
And create much laughter in your audience.
> Finally, there is the noun "firgun" denoting the property of *non
> begrudgement*. It will never get past the Academy of the Hebrew
> Language unless the "f" is changed to "p", so I guess it will be used
> unsanctioned for the next century or two.
Is the noun "film" allowed?
> *Micha: ( refuse to use the term "abazit", which I have never seen
> anywhere except on this newsgroup. A.
>
>> Moshe Schorr
>> It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
>> The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
>> May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
>> btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
>> Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
>
>> Ksiva v'Chatima Tova
>
> Moshe: There is almost a year to go before the "Yamim Noraim", so why
> anticipate? A.
Oy, I put it into my sig. and forgot to take it out. Thanks for
the gentle reminder.
--
mm
>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>>>> BTW, when I was in Yerushalayim, at a religious bookstore, I noted
>>
>> FTR, the bookstore is about a short block west of King George St.
>> close to where it interesects with the Beh Yehuda mall. There ia a
>> park on the east side of King George there, with bathrooms, and the
on the west side of King George. I still get east and west
mixed up in Israel, because I think of east as "towards the water".
>> bookstore is on the south side of the south border of that park.
>>
>> I don't think I read this on a book but on some sort of banner on
>> the wall.
>
>Hmm, that is not a particular "religious" area. I suspect it was a
>"joke" in honor of the many tourists who frequent that neighborhood.
It didnt' seem a very touristy place. There were a couple tables of
books on the sidewalk.
What about what Amitai said, that it was Soviet Yiddish? Did you see
his explanation of this?
Micha Berger
> Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
> The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
Except for those who speak this "Yiddish"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nE75fv0r8
It's a mildly funny video. I think an English speakers could follow it
without knowledge of Yiddish. (I didn't check; I know enough Yiddish to
follow a Torah class, so I can't say from experience.)
I wouldn't say all of Williamsburg Yiddish is this Americanized. It's
more like he strung together numberous plausible examples for effect
that wouldn't happen in a single less-realistic conversation.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Micha Berger
>> (Speakng of shiurim, that's about all I can follow in Yiddish.)
>
> ???????????
Without many stories, my limited grammar isn't as big of a deal.
Also, getting clues from the quotes from gemara, Tanakh and the
rishonim, I have more context with which to guess what the words I
missed mean.
Micha Berger
> *Micha: ( refuse to use the term "abazit", which I have never seen
> anywhere except on this newsgroup.
I picked it up from one of the rabbis on my dubbing papers, who in turn
has a PhD in linguistics (Harvard). He introduced the term on Avodah,
an email list that I run. (Archive: <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah>)
I also found it on the b-Hebrew list archive here
<http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2004-June/019268.html>
where it is called "a term apparently used by some linguists".
Micha Berger
> And girls who are not beautiful may not have those names? :-)
The sage Rabbi Yishmael [90-135 CE; note the dates, as it places this
story and his closing lament in the period between the destruction
of the Temple and the Hadrianic persecutions -micha] was a friend and
protector of the daughters of Israel. He used to say, "The daughters
of Israel are beautiful, but poverty disfigures them." When he would
hear of a prospective bride who was not pretty, he would arrange to
clothe her in beautiful garments and he would adorn her with jewelry
to make her attractive to her prospective groom.
Once a certain man made a vow not to marry his neighbor's daughter.
His family had been attempting a match between them. Unfortunately,
the girl was not pretty. When Rabbi Yishmael heard, he visited the
girl's home and gave her beautiful clothes. He then arranged for
beauticians to redo her hair and change the complexion of her face.
He placed diamonds in her hair and jewelry around her neck.
When the treatments were finished the girl looked beautiful. No one
would have thought she was the same person. Rabbi Yishmael then
called her suitor and asked him, "My son, is this the same girl
against whom you made a vow not to marry?"
When the man saw her he was amazed. "No," he answered, "this is
somebody else. She is beautiful, while the one I knew was very ugly."
"If this is the case," said Rabbi Yishmael, "then your previous vow
is nullified and you may now marry her."
When the happy couple left the house Rabbi Yishmael wept and said,
"The daughters of Israel are beautiful but poverty disfigures them."
-- Talmud, Nedarim 66a
I am also reminded of the dispute between the schools of Hillel and
Shamma, "Keitzad meraqdim lifnei hakalah?" (Might be familiar from
wedding song lyrics.) When one dances before the bride, how does one
praise here?
Beis Shammai says: As she is.
Beis Hiillel: Kalah na'ah vechasudah -- the bride is beautiful and kind
(And that's the rest of the song's lyrics. Or should I say "songs'",
since so many tunes were written for Keitzad Meraqdim?)
Rashi ad loc explains that Beis Hillel are not going so far as to
recommend an outright lie. Rather, in the eyes of her groom, is she not
beaufiful and kind?
Amitai
> > Amitai <chr0...@techunix.technion.ac.il> writes:
> > *Micha: ( refuse to use the term "abazit", which I have never seen
> > anywhere except on this newsgroup.
>
> I picked it up from one of the rabbis on my dubbing papers, who in turn
> has a PhD in linguistics (Harvard). He introduced the term on Avodah,
> an email list that I run. (Archive: <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah>)
>
> I also found it on the b-Hebrew list archive here
> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2004-June/019268.html>
> where it is called "a term apparently used by some linguists".
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
I had completely forgotten that it is an anagram of "`ivrit bat
zmanenu" (Contemporary Hebrew), "a term *apparently* used by *some*
linguists".To my ear - it sounds too descriptive of the honking of
wild geese ("avaz"=goose), so I will continue to avoid using the term.
The qualifications *apparently* and *some* above suggest that its use
is sufficiently rare that I can ignore it with impunity.
Amitai
> --
> Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward
> mi...@aishdas.org by patting yourself on the back.http://www.aishdas.org -Anonymous
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
Giorgies E. Kepipesiom
> Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
> > Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
> > The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
>
> Except for those who speak this "Yiddish"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nE75fv0r8
>
> It's a mildly funny video. I think an English speakers could follow it
> without knowledge of Yiddish. (I didn't check; I know enough Yiddish to
> follow a Torah class, so I can't say from experience.)
>
> I wouldn't say all of Williamsburg Yiddish is this Americanized. It's
> more like he strung together numberous plausible examples for effect
> that wouldn't happen in a single less-realistic conversation.
>
Bronx accent) is exactly how Aunt Pauline spoke Yiddish in the 1950's.
GEK
Harry Weiss
> Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
> > Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
> > The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
> Except for those who speak this "Yiddish"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nE75fv0r8
> It's a mildly funny video. I think an English speakers could follow it
> without knowledge of Yiddish. (I didn't check; I know enough Yiddish to
> follow a Torah class, so I can't say from experience.)
> I wouldn't say all of Williamsburg Yiddish is this Americanized. It's
> more like he strung together numberous plausible examples for effect
> that wouldn't happen in a single less-realistic conversation.
You are right that it is not this Americanized but it is very as it was in
some places in Europe. A real Hungarian Yiddish often had a lot of
Hungarian mixed in. With Russian and Polish a lot less so, since Jews did
not hang around much with the non Jews there.
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> --
> Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward
> mi...@aishdas.org by patting yourself on the back.
> http://www.aishdas.org -Anonymous
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
mirjam
> - Show quoted text -
And Don`t forget how qwe happily say LetalFen ,, and tifanti ,,,, we
made the word Telephone into a verb mirjam
mm
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>When I was between 5 and 10, on school mornings, I would listen to the
>radio when having breakfast, because my mother was already listening
>when I got downstairs. It might have been the Mutual Broadcasting
>Network. All talk afaicr, no or very little music. (There was no
>call-in then, and no "host" for morning radio, in the 50's, but there
>was news and regular and one-time presenters of topics.)
>
>When I was between 8 and 10 I heard someone on the radio talking about
>"The right hand of the Lord does valiantly...", and -- I remember this
>all clearly -- he said that it said "The right hand", because Hebrew
>had no words for intangible things,
I forgot to say that he said Hebrew was a "primitive language", and
that's why it had no words for intangible things.
It's amazing what one can remember from the age of 8 or 10.
And I wonder if he ever brought this up in front of someone who knew
better, or if someone heard him on the radio and talked to him. Maybe
his friends all believed him.
P&M I forgot to say P&M the last time.
Abe Kohen
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2009Oct1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> writes:
>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>
>>>> We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
>>>> many more is something of a myth:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
>>>
>>> What about the number of words in classical Hebrew for happiness?
>>
>> All beautiful girls' names for beautiful girls.
>
> And girls who are not beautiful may not have those names? :-)
All Jewish girls are beautiful! (And so are gentiles, but who's counting.)
>
>> Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
>>
>> (My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
>
> It's interesting how that name is for men for Ashkenazim and for
> women for Sfardim.
Oy. I totally forgot all about Simcha, who happened to be a Sfardia, from my
younger days. What pleasant memories for an old man.
> Same with the name Yonah. Which I find very
> surprising since there is a Biblical "Yonah", a male.
Yonati, tamati, nishmati, (tanach, and as sung by Einstein).
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
It says: village people from Persian Azerbaijan and Eastern Turkey. How is
that Iraqi?
Best,
Abe
"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
news:8c8037a5-db8e-4556...@j4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Abe Kohen
> Succos and didn't post on Sunday, because it was "Yontef" in Ch"ul.
Why would YOU not post on Isru Hag?
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
> Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Among hte current generation, the chassidim still speak mostly Yiddish.
>> The rest of us either speak English or Hebrew dependin on where we live.
>
> Except for those who speak this "Yiddish"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0nE75fv0r8
>
> It's a mildly funny video. I think an English speakers could follow it
> without knowledge of Yiddish. (I didn't check; I know enough Yiddish to
> follow a Torah class, so I can't say from experience.)
>
> I wouldn't say all of Williamsburg Yiddish is this Americanized. It's
> more like he strung together numberous plausible examples for effect
> that wouldn't happen in a single less-realistic conversation.
Doos is nisht Williamsburger Yiddish. Doos is Williamsburger Ehnglish.
This is NOT Willimsburg Yiddish. This is Williamsburg English.
As someone who grew up in Wiiliamsburg when there were considerably more
misnagdim at the time, and who occasionally visits there I can vouch that
this is not how Yiddish is spoken in Williamsburg, but it is how English is
spoken there - with the accent and inflection ind a poor vort fin Yiddish
mixed in.
In Boro Park of Moshe's time and in today's Midwood you might hear Yiddish
with lots of English thrown in especially from those whose primary language
is English.
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
My uncles, aleihem hashalom, spoke Hungarian accented Yiddish, and at a
recent hesped in Boro Park, one of the older men gave a hesped in Hungarian
accented Yiddish. Very different.
Best,
Abe
"Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9e9c0b33-8f4a-4d35...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
Henry Goodman
news:hb39ns$6h5$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:2009Oct1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
>> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> writes:
>>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>>>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> We have quite a few for snow in English also. That the Eskimos have
>>>>> many more is something of a myth:
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
>>>>
>>>> What about the number of words in classical Hebrew for happiness?
>>>
>>> All beautiful girls' names for beautiful girls.
>>
>> And girls who are not beautiful may not have those names? :-)
>
> All Jewish girls are beautiful! (And so are gentiles, but who's counting.)
>
>>
>>> Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
>>>
>>> (My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
>>
>> It's interesting how that name is for men for Ashkenazim and for
>> women for Sfardim.
>
My brother Stephen is called Simcha but that is because he was born on
Simchat Torah.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Henry Goodman
reply so he is causing that person to be mechallel Yomtov.
I sometimes worry about that myself in that I moderate and post on Motzei
Shabbat in England when it is still Shabbat in America and sometimes this
generates replies but I do it anyway.
Art Werschulz
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> writes:
>> All Jewish girls are beautiful! (And so are gentiles, but who's counting.)
>>>
>>>> Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
>>>>
>>>> (My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
>>>
>>> It's interesting how that name is for men for Ashkenazim and for
>>> women for Sfardim.
>>
>
> My brother Stephen is called Simcha but that is because he was born on
> Simchat Torah.
We have both a male and a female named "Simcha" in our shul.
--
Art Werschulz (agw STRUDEL comcast.net)
.... insert clever quote here ...
mirjam
Many names now are used both for boys and Girls
Urijah , Jona, Rotem , Adi, Tamar , Gaai , Noam ,
etc
mirjam
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>
>>> All beautiful girls' names for beautiful girls.
>>
>> And girls who are not beautiful may not have those names? :-)
>
> All Jewish girls are beautiful! (And so are gentiles, but who's counting.)
So "beautiful girls" is a redundency? :-)
>>> Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
>>>
>>> (My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
>>
>> It's interesting how that name is for men for Ashkenazim and for
>> women for Sfardim.
>
> Oy. I totally forgot all about Simcha, who happened to be a Sfardia,
> from my younger days. What pleasant memories for an old man.
If that's all you have left...
>> Same with the name Yonah. Which I find very
>> surprising since there is a Biblical "Yonah", a male.
>
> Yonati, tamati, nishmati, (tanach, and as sung by Einstein).
So?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> Succos and didn't post on Sunday, because it was "Yontef" in Ch"ul.
>
> Why would YOU not post on Isru Hag?
Not to generate any responses on that day.
Yisroel Markov
Here's something I've long neglected to investigate: why wouldn't even
a permanent resident of Eretz Yisrael keep the second day of Yom Tov
in any location that the messengers of the Sanhedrin were unable to
reach in time? This, after all, seems to be the thrust of the g'zera -
it is location-based. Neither should a visitor to Israel keep a second
day. Separation from the community and all that. Did the pilgrims from
Bavel keep a second day when going to Jerusalem for the holidays?
Somehow I doubt it :-)
I know that a lot of people do it, so there must be some halakhic
reasoning behind it, but what is it?
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Amitai
> Idi suda. Is that where "nash kontrol" comes from?
>
> It says: village people from Persian Azerbaijan and Eastern Turkey. How is
> that Iraqi?
>
not checked!
I Googled them, saw that they had a website, and posted it.
From what I have heard about them, they are associated broadly with
the Iraqi community, and not considered Turkish, Azeri or Persian. If
you check the map, you will find that Urmia is about 30 miles. from
the triple point on the Iraq-Iran-Turkey border and Salmas is several
miles to the north, well to the southwest of Azerbaijan. Baskale
(probably the same as Bashkare) is not far to the west in Turkey, so I
was not all that wrong.
Amitai
> Best,
> Abe
>
> "Amitai" <chr0...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
Abe Kohen
"Art Werschulz" <a...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:m2zl7uj...@comcast.net...
> Hi.
>
> "Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> writes:
>
>>> All Jewish girls are beautiful! (And so are gentiles, but who's
>>> counting.)
>>>>
>>>>> Simcha, Rina, Ditza, Hedva, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> (My apologies to all the men/boys named Simcha.)
>>>>
>>>> It's interesting how that name is for men for Ashkenazim and for
>>>> women for Sfardim.
>>>
>>
>> My brother Stephen is called Simcha but that is because he was born on
>> Simchat Torah.
>
> We have both a male and a female named "Simcha" in our shul.
May you continue to have lots of smachot (simchas for the Yiddishly
inclined).
:-)
Best,
Abe