Thinking about Christianity and 10,000 BILLION stars in our visible universe
Carl Sagan's billions
understand Christianity.
I contemplated and struggled with its basic doctrines, the core
beliefs, the philosophies, the essence and teachings
and also the contradictions in Old and New Testament.
And also the behavior of warrior so-called Christian nations,
often wreaking havoc in non-Christian countries (and now again
conducting horrible bombing wars on non-Christian people
in Afghanistan and Iraq and Somalia).
And also Genesis/creation, Adam and Eve, the first couple, Noah,
the flood, the many prophets, the Messiah, the crucifixion, the
resurrection, the many other stories and prophecies in the Bible,
etc..
Then slowly ( over at least 5 years) I came to understand several
truths
described below. These truths enabled me to gradually throw off the
yoke,
the blinders and the intellectual shackles of a long childhood
indoctrination
in Christianity, and amazingly and steadily and happily and
irreversibly
I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
That was still pretty dramatic, e.g., when I read Robinson's
Honest-to-God and his brave search for answers (searches
beyond the usual Christian dogmas) I cried and shivered
for hours. He made me see the first glimmer of light and hope
in my own search. This was followed later by Teilhard de Chardin's
elaborate ideas of increasing complexity, Dobzhansky's books
on evolution, Bertrand Russell's courage and ideas,
books on comparative religion, and many more.
'There was no need to fight and struggle anymore - forever':
Not due to surrender, but due to liberation: Liberation from
irrationality, illogic, indoctrination and ancient religious beliefs.
I understood ---- and (as happened with Galileo when he understood
the earth position and path in the solar system) these insights
and this freedom was irreversible. I saw the reality of religions,
and with that the hold of mental slavery in the form of Christianity
(and the other related mono-theistic religions Islam and Judaism)
was broken - - forever.
The mind broke free and I was off flying unencumbered.
No longer mentally stunted, no longer kept in intellectual captivity,
no longer bogged down and in eternal confusion about ancient
human-written 'holy' books and associated religious ballast.
These are the 10 basic (simplified) truths I came to understand:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts. These evolved over generations and were
then gradually accepted and written down as the (new) truth, the
(new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true'
religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being is a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
exist forever.
We fear death; we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death; we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a deep need to formulate a reason for our existence.
We have a deep need to believe that we will outlast all the
pain and misery in our earth-bound lives and will 'live happily
ever after' in a glorious place of light called 'heaven'.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are man-made, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are man-made. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The man-made Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins for all people forever for all times. That brilliant idea of
hope
and total redemption and forgiveness by the almighty ruler arose
from much older pagan religions that had human sacrifices at
their core:
The ultimate sacrifice, as proof of total obedience and worship,
is giving your own most valuable 'asset', which is to give up and
offer/sacrifice your own son (example in the Abraham-Isaac story).
That's why 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ
- the Son, God's Son - was sacrificed by God, the Father, and
died for the sins of all mankind.
This was a BRILLIANT and unlimited expansion of the original
idea behind human sacrifices.
Not only did the all-powerful God himself give part of himself (the
on) as the sacrifice, this sacrifice was so big, so ALL encompassing
that it forgave ALL sins of ALL human beings for ALL times --
forever.
This idea is really mind-boggling in its ingenuity and depth, and
therefore its universal appeal.
However as our species, Homo Sapiens, evolved over millions of
years, there was never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago.
That means Eve disobeying God and eating from the fruit
never happened. That means the 'fall' in the garden of Eden
never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g. a million years
earlier never happened.
That means the philosophy of Jesus Christ having to die for our
original sin, for us disobeying God, has no basis in fact.
Our ancestors millions of years ago did not have the
intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.
Even if the ideas of original sin and the fall are allegories,
they do not make sense versus the path of our evolution.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
There are also over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
and a total of 100-200 billion OTHER galaxies in the visible
universe, each on average containing over 100 billion stars.
Assuming only 1 inhabited planet per billion stars, then there
are over 10,000 billion (!) inhabited planets in our visible
universe. It is illogical to assume that God sacrificed his son
on tens of millions or even tens of billions of planets.
6. All religions are man-made, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = organized religion.
That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who reject or modify the
older ideas and entice multitudes with newer messages of hope.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are man-made, and the concept of
'God' in Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man-made.
As nowhere in the material world do we see physical acts/actions on
matter by a 'God', there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian or Islamic or Jewish God (who controls,
guards, acts on matter = interferes in our material world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage, and conclude that:
GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
our physical environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce/assume
a supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that God as
defined by Christianity, Islam and Judaism does not exist
and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
you can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
He did not cause it, and he did not prevent it.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
most profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming hundreds of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books.
Religions always consist of a mixture of man made philosophies,
myths, theories, taboos, legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan
religions, etc.. Explanations from hundreds of years or even much
longer ago will be pushed back or often voided by science and more
rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our own existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
philosophy of life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific and mostly static belief system,
based on fixed explanations for life and death, made by men and
women who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
have difficulty to survive. The psychological human need for
spirituality will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of
religions
such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people. The rites, rituals, songs,
communal feelings, music, spiritual teachings and social
interactions may survive but the doctrines and dogmas cannot
survive.
10. The core issue is really a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms; dogmaticreligions based
on ancient fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with
smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
and complexity of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment, sports, and
the unending accumulation of material possessions:
The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.
The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
including Christianity and Islam, in their core must stay so anti-
science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
system that so clearly exposes the fallacies in their inherited
belief system.
============================================
Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
of years ago (people who did not know any better (not their fault)),
it is much better to determine your own beliefs and truths.
That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
heaven, hell, sin, soul, gods, etc.
That freedom will jettison all the religious garbage that is
a constant obstruction and obstacle to a better, more rational
and more humane world.
Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality
including religions such as Christianity and Islam.
Rationality combined with humanism may guide us
to a better world of fairness, the alleviation of poverty,
of global sharing and caring, and to justice and peace.
Do I think this is feasible? Not that much: Power, greed, racism,
and power politics are superstrong human and societal forces
(for injustice, wars, killing, irrationality, waste, destruction,
hate, intolerance, etc.).
But it may show the direction of hope which we can then analyze
rationally. That may empower and enable us to plan a path and
build societal and global structures to channel, restrict or even
partially control the beast.
With regards,
Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions
Larry Snyder
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:44059890-46b1-491b...@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Interesting Logic. Flawed by the limited scope. We are 4 dimensional
creatures living in a 4 dimensional universe. We are blind to most every
thing but 3 dimensions. The universe itself is God. We, being part of the
universe, are part of God. An analogy of our relationship to God is similar
to our relationship to our own cells. We provide nutrition, environment,
and stimulus to the individual cells. We are their God. We want them to be
healthy and functional. Sometimes we must take action to help (miracle) or
harm (mysterious) these cells. They haven't the perception or logic to
understand our actions. Their beliefs are irrelevant. This is a poor analogy
but you can get the gist of it. Noise is cheap. If you want to meet God
for yourself, Here's how:
http://www.pacificsites.com/~snyder/God/Meeting.html
Take care of yourself
Larry
John
wrote:
> I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
Why are you more free, that I am? What do you have, that I do not
have. Can you explain why you feel that a person who believes in Jesus
Christ, is not free? What do they lack, that you have, which is so
important to you, that you shout it out, in capital letters?
>
> 1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
> by humans.
Can you prove this?
>
> 2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
This you cannot prove either
>
> Why? Evolution is a fact
Evolution is NOT a fact, it is a theory, and it is lacking some
serious facts, not the least of which is, where is the proof that man
evolved from a lower life form. Where is the link? Its not there. Its
just a theory.
>
> All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
> don't believe a worm has a soul,
Can you prove it? Can you prove that a worm does not contain a spirit?
You are arguing with a term you have not defined. What is a soul?
>
> We fear death; we fear being gone forever.
No, I do not.
> We want to deny death; we need to believe we are immortal.
I am immortal.
> We have a deep need to formulate a reason for our existence.
> We have a deep need to believe that we will outlast all the
> pain and misery in our earth-bound lives and will 'live happily
> ever after' in a glorious place of light called 'heaven'.
Major straw man. Get to work proving this
>
> 3. There is no heaven and hell.
Got any proof of that?
>
> That means in the long line of evolution
Evolution is only a theory. You may not treat it as a fact, unless
you have complete, irrefutable proof, and so far, there is none.
> Not only did the all-powerful God himself give part of himself (the
> on) as the sacrifice, this sacrifice was so big, so ALL encompassing
> that it forgave ALL sins of ALL human beings for ALL times --
> forever.
No. The sacrifice does not erase all sins, of all people, for all
times. I guess you really don't know what you are talking about.
>
> This idea is really mind-boggling in its ingenuity and depth, and
> therefore its universal appeal.
Only because you don't understand it, as you above false statement
proves.
>
> However as our species, Homo Sapiens, evolved over millions of
> years, there was never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago.
You have any proof of that evolution over millions of years? I'll save
you the trouble. You don't. Its just a theory, and nothing more than
that
> 5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
> Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
> not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
> it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
> 4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
Again, your ignorance of the gospel of Jesus Christ reveals that you
simply don't know what you are talking about. If you knew of the
Gospel, as taught by the Lord to the world through the LDS church, you
would not declare the eternal suffering of billions, which is a
falsehood, aka, a lie.
>
> There are also over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
> and a total of 100-200 billion OTHER galaxies in the visible
> universe, each on average containing over 100 billion stars.
>
> Assuming only 1 inhabited planet per billion stars, then there
> are over 10,000 billion (!) inhabited planets in our visible
> universe. It is illogical to assume that God sacrificed his son
> on tens of millions or even tens of billions of planets.
Wow, you really don't understand do you. Ever been to church, or read
a scripture. I think you just got taken in by one author, and your
desire to have things work out the way you want them to
>
> 6. All religions are man-made, which explains the huge variety of
> religions.
You do know you are cross posting into an LDS forum, right? Your words
make you look foolish
.
>
> That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
> religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
> created all the time, all over the world.
Again, you might consider cutting the Mormon groups out of your cross
postings, because your words reveal you know nothing of the faith
> As nowhere in the material world do we see physical acts/actions on
> matter by a 'God', there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
> God like the Christian or Islamic or Jewish God (who controls,
> guards, acts on matter = interferes in our material world) exists.
And you window into your time on the earth is how big, compared to
the millions and millions of years God has been forming the universe.
If time is endless, why do you think you should see any changes, in
the course of a few thousand years, as a portion of billions of
years?
>
> 8. So we have to face the fact, with courage, and conclude that:
>
> GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
Got any proof of that, besides your straw man arguments?
> You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
> You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
> you can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Ignorance, and such an attitude of all knowing wisdom makes you look
tiny.
>
> Example:
> In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
> were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
Yup. Just a by-product of the creative processes continually going on
in the earth.
>
> Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
> He did not cause it, and he did not prevent it.
He caused it, in the sense that the creative process is still going
on. Why would he prevent it?
>
> --- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
>
> does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
> Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
> and rules and monitors everything.
No matter how long you rant, you still have NO explanation for how
life began. You can go back a hundred trillion years, and sooner or
later, you will have to admit that someone, or something, created
life.
>
> In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
> In the coming hundreds of years many more mysteries will be
> resolved.
Not one mystery explained, has altered the existence of God.
>
> Religions always consist of a mixture of man made philosophies,
> myths, theories, taboos, legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan
> religions, etc..
Straw man. shame on you.
>Explanations from hundreds of years or even much
> longer ago will be pushed back or often voided by science and more
> rational explanations.
That would be the science that declares global warming? The science
that declared global cooling? The science that declared the earth was
the center of the universe? The science that said the earth was flat?
The science that has changed its mind more often than a woman changes
her shoe styles? That science? You put your faith in something that
exists to prove itself wrong.
>
> That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
> it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
> of matter and life, and for our own existence.
Quit cross posting into Mormon groups, if you don't understand the LDS
people and their history.
> So it will remain an anti-scientific and mostly static belief system,
Nothing static about modern day revelation and changes in the teaching
methods of the most high. You are stuck in methodism, and born again
teachings.
>
> The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
> including Christianity and Islam, in their core must stay so anti-
> science.
There is nothing anti science, in the LDS religion. In fact. LDS
doctrine backs up what science, true science, has to offer.
You are in for a very big suprise.
Carl Sagan's billions
wrote:
>
> read more »
Oops, sorry, make that 100 billion stars x 100 billion galaxies =
over 10,000 billion billion stars in our visible universe.
Assuming only 1 inhabited planet per billion stars with an advanced
civilization like ours or more advanced than ours (a very
conservative estimate), that makes for 10,000 billion civilizations.
So God would have had to sacrifice his Son on 10,000
billion planets (give or take a few thousand billion)?
It is not a sane idea.
mg
prove a negative. I think it all boils down to the fact that there is
no objective evidence that God(s) exists.
On Apr 27, 2:19 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> resolved. That means religious ...
>
> read more »
Don Freeman
-God
"mg" <mgke...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58cec98c-ce19-4a51...@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
mg
> DON"T YOU MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!!
>
> -God
Come on down God and bring Peter Pan and Santa Clause with you.
> "mg" <mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Patrick Ruebusch
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:44059890-46b1-491b...@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> understand Christianity.
ot reply to ot post
Ah, Christians, the sinners. I guess?
The main sell is 'Christ forgives your sins'.
Good thing with the history they have.
Since the death of Christ has any group has killed more innocent people?
Inquis., wars, slavery, murder, ethnic clenz, (poor natives, world-wide),
giant $xM taxfree churches, (now I'm i trouble) etc..
This is the real work of the Christians.
Good thing for them they can get forgiven.
Another point I'd like to make, before I go out for more beer.
Prayer works if you think positively. Again, nothing to do with religma.
thank you,
p ('god' is life itself, not religion, which is the anti-everything)(trust
me on this one)
end of off topic crap
john
> "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:44059890-46b1-491b...@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Well, just like in Physics, it's how
you interpret the data you got with the experimental
setup you made thinking you would get
something because of the way you set it up.
Christ himself said not to look at him, because
he was just someone pointing at God.
But they made a religion out of Christ anyway.
Why doesn't everyone just either believe in God or
not believe in God?
Don't worship prophets like Christ or Buddha
or whoever; but respect them and be thankful to
them for pointing at God. Just worship God.
John
Raleigh
I know that atheists find it convenient to claim that Christians kill
more people than anyone else, but considering that Bloody Mary had
about 72 people killed, and Stalin had about 60 milllion people
killed, the statement is not only stupid, but bigoted and ignorant.
If Mary deserves the name "bloody," an entirely new word would have to
be made up to describe the atheist..
George
Robert J. Kolker
> I know that atheists find it convenient to claim that Christians kill
> more people than anyone else, but considering that Bloody Mary had
> about 72 people killed, and Stalin had about 60 milllion people
> killed, the statement is not only stupid, but bigoted and ignorant.
> If Mary deserves the name "bloody," an entirely new word would have to
> be made up to describe the atheist..
You forget (conveniently) about the Crusades and the killing ancillary
thereto. March On, Christian Soldier.
The there were the various slaying of heretics in Catholic countries to
say nothing of the butchering of the Cathars and all the collateral
homocide. Where do you think the phrase "kill them all, God will gather
up His own" comes from?
Bob Kolker
Mike
>
> - Show quoted text -
Atheism, which is brutally enforced in educational curriculums by neo-
Stalin fascists even in America, serves the purposes of extreme
individualism, commercialism and irrational materialism, results we
are starting to see in the form of bubbles in commodity markets and
rising inflation.
Even if we were sure that there is no God, we woudl have to invent one
to stop irrational behavior that may lead to another global war. The
majority of people act irrationaly, a serious example is hyperbolic
discounting and the tendency of people to live for today and not
caring about the future.
Mike
cin...@gmail.com
> > "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
It makes no sense to blame any ones docturin or lack their off for
crimes.
Murder can be commited byt Jew,Christian,Muslim or Atheist. Its the
person that commited the crime.
Stalin was a terrible person but he did not commit his crimes becuase
of his atheism.
Hitler was a catholic but it was not his bible that made him a bad
person.
cin...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mike Atheists are just like anyone else. Some of them are
Materialistic and some are not people come in different Flavors.
Do you hate be because im an atheists?
hanson
kike, wrote in message news:N7idnVu9TIdiMIDV...@comcast.com...
>
Raleigh wrote:
>> I know that atheists find it convenient to claim that Christians kill
>> more people than anyone else, but considering that Bloody Mary
>> had about 72 people killed, and Stalin had about 60 milllion people
>> killed, the statement is not only stupid, but bigoted and ignorant.
>> If Mary deserves the name "bloody," an entirely new word would have to be
>> made up to describe the atheist..
>
> You forget (conveniently) about the Crusades and the killing ancillary
> thereto. March On, Christian Soldier.
> The there were the various slaying of heretics in Catholic countries to
> say nothing of the butchering of the Cathars and all the collateral
> homocide. Where do you think the phrase "kill them all, God will gather
> up His own" comes from?
> Bob Kolker
>
Besides the fact that the murderers in Stalin's NKDW were mostly
Jews, sanctimonious kike Kolker conveniently forgot to say that
he had posted earlier:
>
< http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/82caaf5ff6e0038c >
::BK:: "I advocate wide scale genocide on the Moslems", after,
::BK:: on Oct. 18, 04, in news:2tm3f7F...@uni-berlin.de
::BK:: he said "the obvious [final] solution is to kill them all" ... &
::BK:: urges in news:2rfqqdF...@uni-berlin.de on 09-23-04,
::BK:: "to put all Xians into asylums for their belief in Christianity".
>
Kike Kolker moans about others' irrationality when his own
bizarre Jewish yearning surpasses their's by many orders of
magnitude. Yet Kolker is rivaled by another lunatic kike
namely Uncle rect-Al Schwartz, the Jew who said:
< http://groups.google.com/group/rec.org.mensa/msg/572674e5060b55a3 >
::Al:: "DEATH to the poor. -- DEATH to the sick. -- DEATH to
::Al:: every cripple. DEATH to every retard. -- DEATH to every
::Al:: addict. -- DEATH to the queer and infected. -- DEATH
::Al:: to every Welfare parasite. -- DEATH to every Social
::Al:: Security parasite. -- DEATH to every prisoner with
::Al:: 10 or more years' prison sentence. -- DEATH to Night
::Al:: Basketball. DEATH to every sniveling conniving goddamned
::Al:: money-sucking Officially Sad sonofabitch in the world.
::Al:: DEATH to the entire Third World. Kill them all".
< http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/msg/d05517e7f4de883d>
::Al:: "I have no problem with killing the now and future enemy. An
::Al:: Earth with 3 billion people would be a much nicer place to live."
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/657dbe27ce06ca8d >
::Al:: Uncle Al especially enjoys earthquakes that collapse churches
::Al:: filled with worshippers
>
These and such moaning & counter-whining by all these mentally
damaged "goods" has been going on ever since they bought
into
::: the aberrant legacy of the perverse sociopathy of Abe,
::: the Arab. -- Abraham who was a child abuser & the original
::: self-circumciser due to his VD malady, a deranged member
::: from the criminal out-cast tribe of the Habaru, who some 5768
::: years ago, .... (acc. to the tales in the current Jewish calendar,
::: probably on a Oct. 25, during a Shabbat ... ahaha... ahahaha)
::: spawned the seeds of monotheism that gave rise to Judaism,
::: Xianity and Islam, whose sole & chief raison d'etre seems to
::: be to kill each other off, wholesale, in the name of their own
::: respective irrational, godly-ungodly "spiritual" oye-weh-
::: Yahweh-, trall-Allah- or junk-Jehovah- delusions... ahahaha...
>
So much for "Jewish intelligence"..."oye weh!"..."Trust me!"...
"Go figure".... hahahahaha. ... but most of all remember:
==Religion is a tool that is used by the few to fuck the many==
and the few do know that but the many do not.
==Nobody is born religious. Religion is an acquired disease==
>
ahahahaha... ahahahanson
hanson
news:2804ad19-c0e7-4d20...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
It makes no sense to blame any ones docturin or lack
Hitler was a catholic but it was not his bible that made him
a bad person.
>
ahahaha.. Why do you assume that and how would you
know? If he was a catholic then he was forced during his
formative years to study the bible which not only sanctioned
but glorified the account of when Joshua and his kikes
conducted the first recorded holocaust against the
Canaanites, killing all men, raping all women and children
before murdering them too and then burning down their
homes, all in the name of their God Yahweh.
>
So, when some 3000 years later Hitler read that in the Bible
and did the very same trick onto the Jews, it seems to be
bad thing all of the sudden. Why?
= Hint:
== Religion is a tool that is used
=== by the few to fuck the many.
==== Nobody is born religious.
===== Religion is an acquired disease.
====== Amen!... ahahahaha....
>
.... and more along the same lines here:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/4e32ed7f4f0e874e
ahahahaha... ahahahanson
weedhopper
"Raleigh" <grale...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:42139ded-14a6-40f1...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
You will find this most interesting:
cin...@gmail.com
> <cina...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Because its the person that has to commit the evil. Anyone can be
influenced or claim to be influenced by words but its the individual
that does it. If we blame words for evil then i dont think we can ever
move along.
hanson
news:25b599a1-8b6f-49ae...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Because its the person that has to commit the evil. Anyone can be
influenced or claim to be influenced by words but its the individual
that does it. If we blame words for evil then i dont think we can ever
move along.
>
... and surprise!... We have NOT moved "along!"... And we will not
move along as long as the children are continued to be infected
with the disease. -- Look at yourself. You defend the agent/cause
of the disease and try to praise that "Load" -- Halleluiah! --Amen!
>
But you are not alone. You are in august company you poor sod.
Disciples, all being mentally damaged "goods", like you, have
argued like you did, ever since they bought into
::: the aberrant legacy of the perverse sociopathy of Abe,
::: the Arab. -- Abraham who was a child abuser & the original
::: self-circumciser due to his VD malady, a deranged member
::: from the criminal out-cast tribe of the Habaru, who some 5768
::: years ago, .... (acc. to the tales in the current Jewish calendar,
::: probably on a Oct. 25, during a Shabbat ... ahaha... ahahaha)
::: spawned the seeds of monotheism that gave rise to Judaism,
::: Xianity and Islam, whose sole & chief raison d'etre seems to
::: be to kill each other off, wholesale, in the name of their own
::: respective irrational, godly-ungodly "spiritual" oye-weh-
::: Yahweh-, trall-Allah- or junk-Jehovah- delusions... ahahaha...
>
>
Raleigh
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> Raleigh wrote:
>
> > I know that atheists find it convenient to claim that Christians kill
> > more people than anyone else, but considering that Bloody Mary had
> > about 72 people killed, and Stalin had about 60 milllion people
> > killed, the statement is not only stupid, but bigoted and ignorant.
> > If Mary deserves the name "bloody," an entirely new word would have to
> > be made up to describe the atheist..
>
> You forget (conveniently) about the Crusades and the killing ancillary
> thereto. March On, Christian Soldier.
>
I Guess you have succumbed to Muslim propaganda. Islam spread itself
by the sword throughout the Middle East and North Africa, all which
were Christian areas. In fact, Islam came close to conquering all
Europe by the sword, but providentially failed. What happened during
the Crusades between Christians and Muslims was the same thing that
took place between American troops and Japanese troops after Pearl
Harbor. Besides, we are talking numbers here. Name one individual
Christian who has ordered the deaths of 60,000,000 people. There is
already a thread going here about what Stalin did to the Kulaks.
Onward Atheist asshole, marching off to war,
With a crystal shot-glass, going on before.
> The there were the various slaying of heretics in Catholic countries to
> say nothing of the butchering of the Cathars and all the collateral
> homocide.
Considering that this is a Mormon newsgroup, let's just say, "What do
you expect from the "Church of the Devil?" How does that fit in with
Christianity?
Where do you think the phrase "kill them all, God will gather
> up His own" comes from?
>
> Bob Kolker
Offhand, I'd say it sounds like a comment made by a hierophant in the
"Church of the Devil." The Bible states that the antiChrist will stand
in the holy place, showing himself (i.e., in his own person) that he
is God." That is what the Pope has inscribed on his hat, that he wears
for appearances in the Holy City: a latin phrase that says, "The man
who stands in the place of Jesus Christ," or "Jesus Christ,
vicariously." This antiChrist stance is contained and preserved in the
word "vicar." Since the position of atheists is that man is the
highest being there is, their de facto position is that the smartest
and most powerful man is the de facto "god.," and I have never met an
atheist who didn't think he was smarter than anybody else. Thus,
atheists and the Pope are cut from the same cloth.
Raleigh
Raleigh
cina...@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 4, 8:30?am, Raleigh <graleigh...@cs.com> wrote:
> > Patrick Ruebusch wrote:
> > > "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:44059890-46b1-491b...@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> > > >I struggled for a long time in my younger years trying to
> > > > understand Christianity.
> >
> > > ot reply to ot post
> >
> > > Ah, Christians, the sinners. I guess?
> > > The main sell is 'Christ forgives your sins'.
> > > Good thing with the history they have.
> > > Since the death of Christ has any group has killed more innocent people?
> > > Inquis., wars, slavery, murder, ethnic clenz, (poor natives, world-wide),
> > > giant $xM taxfree churches, (now I'm i trouble) etc..
> > > This is the real work of the Christians.
> > > Good thing for them they can get forgiven.
> >
> > > Another point I'd like to make, before I go out for more beer.
> > > Prayer works if you think positively. Again, nothing to do with religma.
> >
> > > thank you,
> >
> > > p ('god' is life itself, not religion, which is the anti-everything)(trust
> > > me on this one)
> >
> > > end of off topic crap
> >
> > I know that atheists find it convenient to claim that ?Christians kill
> > more people than anyone else, but considering that Bloody Mary had
> > about 72 people killed, and Stalin had about 60 milllion people
> > killed, the statement is not only stupid, but bigoted and ignorant.
> > If Mary deserves the name "bloody," an entirely new word would have to
> > be made up to describe the atheist..
> >
> > George- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> It makes no sense to blame any ones docturin or lack their off for
> crimes.
> Murder can be commited byt Jew,Christian,Muslim or Atheist. Its the
> person that commited the crime.
> Stalin was a terrible person but he did not commit his crimes becuase
> of his atheism.
> Hitler was a catholic but it was not his bible that made him a bad
> person.
That is a very politically incorrect statement. Prohomosexual
activists insist that Christianity has to be completely remade from
the foundtations up, because its beliefs might lead to a gay person
being bashed somewhere. Christian doctrine is now referred to as
hate speech by them for that reason. Christians might, by the same
token, designate criticism of themselves by atheists as a prelude to
Christian-bashing. Christians should insist that atheism be remade
from the ground up to make it more friendly toward theists.
The difference between other religious groups and atheists is that the
atheist cannot be excommunicated from atheism for killing people. He
has no restraints on his behavior other than his own natural tendecy
toward violence, or lack therefof. Religious groups tend to have some
kind of morality that is enforced. The worst religionist feels guilty
when he thinks about killing someone, and has emotional problems in so
doing. The atheist has no problem with killing other than what his own
conscience tells him to do.
Raleigh
Raleigh
hanson wrote:
> ... and surprise!... We have NOT moved "along!"... And we will not
> move along as long as the children are continued to be infected
> with the disease. -- Look at yourself. You defend the agent/cause
> of the disease and try to praise that "Load" -- Halleluiah! --Amen!
> >
Judging from what is in this post, your bowels were "moving along" and
not your lips when you wrote it.
> But you are not alone. You are in august company you poor sod.
> Disciples, all being mentally damaged "goods", like you, have
> argued like you did, ever since they bought into
> ::: the aberrant legacy of the perverse sociopathy of Abe,
> ::: the Arab. -- Abraham who was a child abuser & the original
> ::: self-circumciser due to his VD malady, a deranged member
> ::: from the criminal out-cast tribe of the Habaru, who some 5768
> ::: years ago, .... (acc. to the tales in the current Jewish calendar,
> ::: probably on a Oct. 25, during a Shabbat ... ahaha... ahahaha)
> ::: spawned the seeds of monotheism that gave rise to Judaism,
> ::: Xianity and Islam, whose sole & chief raison d'etre seems to
> ::: be to kill each other off, wholesale, in the name of their own
> ::: respective irrational, godly-ungodly "spiritual" oye-weh-
> ::: Yahweh-, trall-Allah- or junk-Jehovah- delusions... ahahaha...
> >
> Thanks for the laughs, you sorry bastard... ahahaha... ahahanson
> >
Raleigh
hanson
another defender of the "Load", "Raleigh" <grale...@cs.com>
wrote in message
news:6eaca498-9b50-4adb...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
<cina...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2804ad19-c0e7-4d20...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
It makes no sense to blame any ones docturin or lack
their off for crimes. --- [ahaha... doctrine or lack thereof?]
Hitler was a catholic but it was not his bible that made him
a bad person.
>
hanson wrote:
ahahaha.. Why do you assume that and how would you
know? If he was a catholic then he was forced during his
formative years to study the bible which not only sanctioned
but glorified the account of when Joshua and his kikes
conducted the first recorded holocaust against the
Canaanites, killing all men, raping all women and children
before murdering them too and then burning down their
homes, all in the name of their God Yahweh.
>
So, when some 3000 years later Hitler read that in the Bible
and did the very same trick onto the Jews, it seems to be
bad thing all of the sudden. Why?
= Hint:
== Religion is a tool that is used
=== by the few to fuck the many.
==== Nobody is born religious.
===== Religion is an acquired disease.
====== Amen!... ahahahaha....
>
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/4e32ed7f4f0e874e
ahahahaha...
>
Disease victim, cinanon, wrote:
Because its the person that has to commit the evil. Anyone can be
influenced or claim to be influenced by words but its the individual
that does it. If we blame words for evil then i dont think we can ever
move along.
>
... and surprise!... We have NOT moved "along!"... And we will not
move along as long as the children are continued to be infected
with the disease. -- Look at yourself. You defend the agent/cause
of the disease and try to praise that "Load" -- Halleluiah! --Amen!
:::: Raleigh, the self-wounded Christian warrior, did not like to hear
::::: what he heard an thusly...
>
Raleigh, unchristian-like, did JUDGE & wrote:
"Judging from what is in this post, your bowels were "moving along"
and not your lips when you wrote it."
>
Halleluiah! ... and it came to pass that Raleigh joined the choir
of this august company of poor sods, all of them being mentally
damaged "goods", and argued like they always did, ever since
David DeLaney
>Considering that this is a Mormon newsgroup,
Actually, "this" has been crossposted, probably with malice aforethought by
the original poster, to five different newsgroups, one of which has an active
Ban On Religious Posts and two more of which the subject is irrelevant to
at best. Setting followups...
Dave "will immanentize the eschaton for food" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Patrick Ruebusch
fucki*g shoot me
no more ot posts from me
"Patrick Ruebusch" <rueb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dR%Sj.2205$qW.1274@trnddc06...
cin...@gmail.com
> Victim <cina...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I dont think you know what side your on your self
FreeThinker
>
> Interesting Logic. Flawed by the limited scope. We are 4 dimensional
> creatures living in a 4 dimensional universe. We are blind to most every
> thing but 3 dimensions. The universe itself is God. We, being part of the
> universe, are part of God. An analogy of our relationship to God is similar
> to our relationship to our own cells. We provide nutrition, environment,
> and stimulus to the individual cells. We are their God. We want them to be
> healthy and functional. Sometimes we must take action to help (miracle) or
> harm (mysterious) these cells. They haven't the perception or logic to
> understand our actions. Their beliefs are irrelevant. This is a poor analogy
> but you can get the gist of it. Noise is cheap. If you want to meet God
> for yourself, Here's how:http://www.pacificsites.com/~snyder/God/Meeting.html
>
> Take care of yourself
>
> Larry
I really like your explanation best of all.. Universe itself is God
and we a symbiotic relationship to it..
Thanks for the link! :P
hanson
I dont think you know what side your on your self
>
ahahaha... of course you do not think, sweet pea.
You do BELIEVE instead, like all good believers do
because you are suffering from the disease called
religion... ahahaha...
See what "your" side did to you ever since you and "they"
have bought into
::: the aberrant legacy of the perverse sociopathy of Abe,
::: the Arab. -- Abraham who was a child abuser & the original
::: self-circumciser due to his VD malady, a deranged member
::: from the criminal out-cast tribe of the Habaru, who some 5768
::: years ago, .... (acc. to the tales in the current Jewish calendar,
::: probably on a Oct. 25, during a Shabbat ... ahaha... ahahaha)
::: spawned the seeds of monotheism that gave rise to Judaism,
::: Xianity and Islam, whose sole & chief raison d'etre seems to
::: be to kill each other off, wholesale, in the name of their own
::: respective irrational, godly-ungodly "spiritual" oye-weh-
::: Yahweh-, trall-Allah- or junk-Jehovah- delusions... ahahaha...
>
=== by the few to fuck the many.
==== Nobody is born religious.
===== Religion is an acquired disease.
====== Amen!... ahahahaha....
.... and more along the same lines here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/2e1265ae9001b5f5
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/4e32ed7f4f0e874e
ahahahaha... ahahahanson
Lon
It is possible "we" benefit from the existence of the universe. We
might even benefit from some of the historical events of the universe.
Arguably judging from past events of the universe, we shall not benefit
forever since we shall sooner or later be fried by our own sun or a
passing brown dwarf, blown into the heavens by yet another asteroid,
incinerated by a comet, or possibly lucky enough to be evaporated and
then frozen as our own sun begins the iron cycle. However, the basis
of a statement where the universe benefits symbiotically from our
existence escapes me unless sewage is a constituent of new stars or
planets and gleeful murder of one's fellow man over differences in fairy
tales is of some obscure benefit.
JoAnne Schmitz
wrote:
>Considering that this is a Mormon newsgroup, let's just say, "What do
>you expect from the "Church of the Devil?" How does that fit in with
>Christianity?
You're conversing on several different newsgroups:
alt.religion.mormon
alt.religion.scientology
alt.astronomy
alt.folklore.urban
sci.physics
If your newsreader supports it, maybe you want to respond to only those
that are relevant.
alt.folklore.urban isn't really interested in arguments about the merits
and demerits of individual religions. "Urban Legend" is not synonymous
with "something lots of people believe but isn't true."
JoAnne "followups" Schmitz
--
The new Urban Legends website is <http://www.tafkac.org>
That's TAFKAC.ORG
Do not accept lame imitations at previously okay URLs