Incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass surgery has increased significantly
Jan Drew
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20551
Incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass surgery
has increased significantly
Excerpts:
The incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass
surgery has increased significantly over the past 16 years in the United
States, but the rate of death from such damage has decreased significantly
during the period, according to a new analysis.
In their analysis of more than 5 million discharges from hospitals across
the United States, the researchers at Duke University Medical Center found
that the incidence of acute renal failure associated with coronary artery
bypass surgery increased almost five-fold during the study period. The
researchers estimate that approximately 20,000 cases of the disorder occur
nationwide each year.
The rate of death from acute renal failure caused by bypass surgery dropped
almost three-fold during the study period, the researchers said. Still,
patients with the disorder tend to have higher death rates, and also to
require longer hospital stays, than patients who do not experience kidney
damage after surgery.
The findings suggest that current strategies used to prevent acute renal
failure following bypass surgery may not be as effective as previously
thought, the researchers said.
More than 467,000 bypass procedures are performed each year in the United
States.
Most cases of kidney injury after bypass surgery are transient and cause no
serious damage, according to Madhav Swaminathan, M.D., an anesthesiologist
and senior member of the study team. But up to 2 percent of affected
patients will require kidney dialysis, and 60 percent of those patients will
die before hospital discharge, he said.
On average, bypass patients without complications spend about five days in
the hospital, while patients with acute renal may spend 20 days, Swaminathan
said.
How bypass surgery causes kidney damage is not exactly known, the
researchers said, but several possible culprits have been suggested. Damage
may be caused by alterations in blood flow that occur as a result of being
placed on a heart-lung machine during surgery, or damage may occur when tiny
bits of plaque break off of the walls of blood vessels, travel to the
kidneys, and block its tiny blood vessels.
Drugs used during the coronary artery bypass surgery also may also
contribute to the phenomenon, and recent Duke research has hinted at a
genetic susceptibility, the researchers added.
Nor do scientists fully understand the supposed benefits of the various
strategies currently used to protect the kidneys during and after surgery,
Swaminathan said.
"During surgery, we try to maintain hydration in the kidneys and keep them
flushed," he said. "After surgery, we adjust medication dosages to the level
of changing kidney function.
But, he added, there have been few randomized trials conducted testing drugs
to protect the kidneys. However, Swaminathan said, no single strategy or
drug has proved superior to standard therapy in reducing the incidence of
renal dysfunction after cardiac surgery.
Peter Bowditch
>
>http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20551
>
>Incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass surgery
>has increased significantly
>Excerpts:
>The incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass
>surgery has increased significantly over the past 16 years in the United
>States, but the rate of death from such damage has decreased significantly
>during the period, according to a new analysis.
So, in summary, more people are staying alive because they get
bypasses and one of the unfortunate apparent side-effects is resulting
in fewer deaths as well.
If you ever need a bypass, Jan, don't forget to tell the doctor to
leave the blocked arteries right where they are because you don't want
to be one of the people who live a longer, more satisfying life
following the surgery.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew
"Peter Bowditch" <myfir...@ratbags.com> wrote in message
news:h8noj2dk1076motm8...@4ax.com...
> "Jan Drew" <jdre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Jan Drew" <jdre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hNY_g.19478$6S3....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
The problem is the ever increasing incidence of the following two
things that damage kidneys years before the bypass surgery:
(1) Type-2 Diabetes.
(2) Prior history of angioplasty with stenting.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
Brian Gaff
responsible. I'd plump for the debris myself.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Jan Drew" <jdre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hNY_g.19478$6S3....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
Jeff
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:1161600555.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
Jeff
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
Please forgive all my iniquities.
Jeff
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:1161641340.6...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Jeff wrote:
>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
>> news:1161600555.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > Actually, they do:
>> >
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
>>
>> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
>
> Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
> practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
> Please forgive all my iniquities.
In other words, you can't back your claims. Data is not the plural of
anecdote.
BTW, what hospitals do you practice at?
Jeff
Jan Drew
Blessings,
Jan Drew
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Laus Deo ! ! :-)
May GOD in HIS infinite grace and mercy continue to heal our hearts
with HIS living water, dear sister Jan whom I love unconditionally.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew wrote:
> > Jeff wrote:
> >> Andrew wrote:
> >> > Actually, they do:
> >> >
> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
> >>
> >> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
> >
> > Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
> > practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
> > Please forgive all my iniquities.
>
> In other words, you can't back your claims.
No. Sorry you are unable to understand what I have written plainly.
Please forgive all my iniquities.
> Data is not the plural of anecdote.
Each patient that has suffered acute renal failure status post CABG is
a datum.
Many such patients is data.
> BTW, what hospitals do you practice at?
This is not information to be broadcasted on usenet:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/stalking.asp
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
to prove in your continuance of this discussion that you are untruthful
in your hedging:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/672335704bf5dce4?
Laus Deo ! ! !
Here is how to become truthful if you choose:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/fcb058da12bb3f3d?
May GOD in HIS infinite mercy and grace keep your heart beating to give
you time to understand this, dear neighbor Jeff whom I love
unconditionally.
Jeff
> Jeff wrote:
>> Andrew wrote:
>> > Jeff wrote:
>> >> Andrew wrote:
>> >> > Actually, they do:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
>> >>
>> >> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
>> >
>> > Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
>> > practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
>> > Please forgive all my iniquities.
>>
>> In other words, you can't back your claims.
>
> No. Sorry you are unable to understand what I have written plainly.
> Please forgive all my iniquities.
I am able to understand what you have plainly written. However, your
so-called "experience" as a non-invasive cardiologist who won't even say
what hospital he practices at don't really back your claims. Real
peer-reviewed research papers would.
>> Data is not the plural of anecdote.
>
> Each patient that has suffered acute renal failure status post CABG is
> a datum.
>
> Many such patients is data.
I did not know that a patient is the same as a datum. A datum may represent
a patient, but no datum has a soul.
While the information resulting from several patients may be called data, it
does not mean that the data have any value.
>
>> BTW, what hospitals do you practice at?
>
> This is not information to be broadcasted on usenet:
>
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/stalking.asp
OK, do you have hospital privildges at any hospital? If you don't have
hospital priviledges, doesn't this make it hard to follow up on your
patients?
> Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
> to prove in your continuance of this discussion that you are untruthful
> in your hedging:
ROFL. Or, kettle meet pot.
Asking you to tell what hospital priviledges you have, if any, is not
stalking. It is asking for honesty.
Jeff
bethan...@gmail.com
well it is my OPINION (not to be mistaken for anything factual) but is
my opinion that she is not a very pro life person. My name is Bethann
my son is a cancer patient I am not greedy but I want my son to live to
know love and Life it is people like her whom post such nasty idiocy's
against longer life fix its (nothing is a perfect cure) that inrich
(her other post indevor) the long for sucidal tendancies. If my son
were to read her (chronic illness in childhood cancer survivors) he
would be sucidal. I mean who wants to make it through just to have more
disasterious health issues later. Jan do me a favor try to post
something positive. This I feel may help you become a healthier happier
person.
Bethann
bethan...@gmail.com
well it is my OPINION (not to be mistaken for anything factual) but is
my opinion that she is not a very pro life person. My name is Bethann
my son is a cancer patient I am not greedy but I want my son to live to
know love and Life it is people like her whom post such nasty idiocy's
against longer life fix its (nothing is a perfect cure) that inrich
(her other post indevor) the long for sucidal tendancies. If my son
were to read her (chronic illness in childhood cancer survivors) he
would be sucidal. I mean who wants to make it through just to have more
disasterious health issues later. Jan do me a favor try to post
something positive. This I feel may help you become a healthier happier
person.
Bethann
Jeff wrote:
Archie Leach
>I have been following Jan on her writing career in the groups here and
>well it is my OPINION (not to be mistaken for anything factual) but is
>my opinion that she is not a very pro life person. My name is Bethann
>my son is a cancer patient I am not greedy but I want my son to live to
>know love and Life it is people like her whom post such nasty idiocy's
>against longer life fix its (nothing is a perfect cure) that inrich
>(her other post indevor) the long for sucidal tendancies. If my son
>were to read her (chronic illness in childhood cancer survivors) he
>would be sucidal. I mean who wants to make it through just to have more
>disasterious health issues later. Jan do me a favor try to post
>something positive. This I feel may help you become a healthier happier
>person.
>Bethann
Who's Jan? I don't see any Jan. I see Jeff and Chungles but no Jan.
Jan Drew
"Jeff" <je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l_a%g.18345$UG4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Jan Drew
"Jeff" <je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l_a%g.18345$UG4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
ZZzz.
Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.
The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that at the same time offer a significant reduction in
health care costs. These therapies are largely being ignored or in
some cases ridiculed.
To most of us involved in scientific research, this seems an odd
notion at first. Surely, one would think, discoveries and
breakthroughs offering great promise in the treatment of disease
would be at once communicated and embraced by the scientific/medical
community. However, those who study the history of scientific
progress conclude otherwise. Science frequently fails to demonstrate
the dispassion we attribute to it.
Historical citations of science resisting new ideas are too numerous
to review in any depth, from Copernicus to Galileo to Darwin, Mendel,
Ohm, Young, Pasteur, lister, Fleming ... the list goes on and on. It
is perhaps more instructive to briefly examine the reasons for resis
tance to innovation in medicine.
Tomato Effect - The tomato effect in medicine occurs when a highly
efficacious therapy for a certain disease is ignored or rejected
because it does not '.make sense" in the light of accepted theories
of disease mechanism and drug action. Doctors at the University of
New Mexico School of Medicine introduced the tomato effect in JAMA.
May 11, 1984. Its name is derived from the history of the tomato in
North America. By 1560, the tomato was becoming a staple of the
continental European diet. However, it was shunned in America until
the 1800's. Why? Because we knew it was poisonous. Everyone knew
tomatoes belong to the nightshade family. The leaves and fruit of
several plants in this family can cause death if ingested. The fact
that Europeans were eating tomatoes without harm was not relevant. It
simply did not make sense to eat poisonous food.
Peer Review - Ile peer review process probably has done more to
discourage innovative research than any other factor that I have
observed. The March 9, 1990 issue of JAMA was devoted entirely to the
topic of peer review. One article in particular, by Horrobin (himself
editor of a peer reviewed medical journal) , cited 18 examples of
peer review attempting to suppress medical innovation. The article
observed: " ... some of the most distinguished of scientists may
display sophisticated behavior that can only be described as
pathological. Editors must be conscious that, despite public
protestations to the contrary, many scientistreviewers are against
innovation unless it is their innovation. Innovation from others may
be a threat because it diminishes the importance of the scientist's
own work.
"Peer review in the grant giving process is so restrictive that most
innovative scientists know they would never receive funding if they
actually said what they were going to do. Scientists therefore have
to tell lies in their grant applications. Such views have explicitly
been stated by at least two Nobel Laureates."
The (JAMA) article contends that medicine has lost sight of the basic
purpose of peer review, asserting, "the true aim of peer review in
biomedical science must be to improve the quality of patient care."
Wrong Economics - When a new therapy comes along that is cheaper,
safer and more effective, it is seen as a competitive threat to those
engaged in the therapy it will displace. Those who stand to be most
economically disadvantaged naturally endeavor to block its
acceptance.
International Barriers - A combination of communication problems
(language barriers) and national chauvinism (if it wasn't discovered
here it can't be of much value) keep some innovative practices
developed in Europe and Asia from reaching the United States.
Cumbersome Bureaucracy - It has been estimated that the FDA approval
process takes an average of 12 years and costs $231 million. This
presents unique difficulties for independent researchers and for
therapies that do not lend themselves to patentability.
It is my observation that there is a role for the insurance industry
in advocating evaluation of innovative medical thera pies. Actuaries
should be almost immune to the tomato effect. We are focused almost
exclusively on statistical results as opposed to theory. Since the
insurance industry pays most of the bills, it should have great
economic motivation to see safe., effective and inexpensive therapies
extensively evaluated and widely disseminated. Consideration of an
industry-wide fund for innovative research could deal with the
problem of peer review. The insurance industry is a sleeping economic
giant. When it awakens to the cost containment possibilities
available through innovative therapies, we will see enormous changes
in the practice of medicine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Volume 6 No. 3 The Road Back Foundation" Antibiotic Therapy for
Rheumatic Diseases Summer 1998
>
>
Jan Drew
Hypocrite, Jeff--notkidsdoc--Jeffery, Peter, MD--Jeff P. Utz
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> I have been following Jan on her writing career in the groups here and
> well it is my OPINION (not to be mistaken for anything factual) but is
> my opinion that she is not a very pro life person.
This thread is not about abortion.
> My name is Bethann
Hi Bethann.
> my son is a cancer patient I am not greedy but I want my son to live to
> know love and Life
Being a cancer patient should not keep him from either GOD's love or
eternal life.
> it is people like her whom post such nasty idiocy's
> against longer life fix its (nothing is a perfect cure) that inrich
> (her other post indevor) the long for sucidal tendancies.
Coronary artery bypass surgery typically does not prolong life.
> If my son
> were to read her (chronic illness in childhood cancer survivors) he
> would be sucidal.
Why hide the truth from him ?
> I mean who wants to make it through just to have more
> disasterious health issues later.
Those who have faith in LORD Jesus Christ.
> Jan do me a favor try to post
> something positive. This I feel may help you become a healthier happier
> person.
Her choice to place her faith in LORD Jesus Christ, to drink HIS living
water, receive HIS eternal life, has resulted in a peace that passes
all worldly understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/175b5dc947a0781f?
You and your son may choose the same way to receive the same peace:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/fcb058da12bb3f3d?
May GOD in HIS infinite mercy and grace keep you and your son's heart
beating to give you both time to understand this, dear neighbor Bethann
george conklin
>
> If you ever need a bypass, Jan, don't forget to tell the doctor to
> leave the blocked arteries right where they are because you don't want
> to be one of the people who live a longer, more satisfying life
> following the surgery.
It has been established years ago that bypass surgery only lengthens life
slightly in 9 years, the average time before the procedure fails. It is
considered a comfort procedure...ie you probably feel better afterwards.
Demon Lord of Confusion
issue further by squeaking:
> "Jeff" wrote...
>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote...
>>> Jeff wrote:
<snip>
>>> Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
>>> to prove in your continuance of this discussion that you are untruthful
>>> in your hedging:
>>
>> ROFL. Or, kettle meet pot.
>>
>> Asking you to tell what hospital priviledges you have, if any, is not
>> stalking. It is asking for honesty.
>
Say, are you always that coherent?
--
________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! mhm 29x21; TM#5; COOSN-029-06-71069
The God of Odd Statements, the Ugliest Pigfucker In The Universe
Stupidity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change.
If you never read anything else in any of my sigs, read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/
http://borealin.livejournal.com/15104.html
Or watch it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs
Then, if you manage to read/watch all that, try this:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
And Molly Ivins had a few choice words to say about it, weeks before:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092906B.shtml
Here's Chris Floyd: Fatal Vision: The Deeper Evil Behind the Detainee
Bill: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100206A.shtml
"Q: What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A: George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War." -- Anon.
Thread where outing begins: http://tinyurl.com/hojf8
George Pickett Memorial Trophy, Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart,
and the Order of the Holey Sockpuppet winner <wfh...@hotmail.com> on
outing personal contact info in x-poasted subject lines:
"Plenty of people post under their real names and do not attempt to hide
their contact info. You are scared of being 'outed' because you are a
pathological abuser of usenet, and people rightly despise you for it.
You're afraid of being reported to the authorities or, better, visited
by a couple of guys with baseball bats. Other people don't have this
obsessive fear. Ward Hardman himself has posted plenty of personal
information - nothing that anyone else added was hidden in any way.
You're so fucking scared you've built up this whole sick mythology about
different categories of bad dudes who 'out' scum like you.
"Meanwhile you are the ugliest pigfucker in the universe. You are the
coward without ethics. You call me a 'newbie' - ha! what an asshole you
are. Those who want to remain anonymous do so. There is absolutely no
way you could identify me, not unless you had the sort of subpoena power
that only gets turned on for big-time terrorists. That's because I chose
to be anonymous. Some people don't. Only really stupid dicks like you
choose the sort of semi-anonymity which leaves you in constant fear.
"What a dickless wonder you are 'Snarky' you fat asshole."
-- in MID: <1156587081....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
"I am the only one who has outer filthed Ward" -- James C. "Crackhead"
Cracked voluntarily self-immolates, in MID:
1159678991.8...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com
"When I told Abbie Hoffman that he was the first one who made me laugh
since Lenny Bruce died, Hoffman said, "Really? He was my god." The
combination of satirical irreverence and sense of justice that Bruce and
Hoffman shared was the real spirit behind the Yippies--a term I coined to
describe a phenomenon that already existed: an organic coalition of stoned
hippies and political activists who engaged in such actions as throwing
money on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, then explaining to
reporters the meaning of that symbolism. Folksinger Phil Ochs summed it
up: "A demonstration should turn you on, not turn you off." So when
journalists link the Yippies with misleading bedfellows, at best it's
careless shorthand; at worst it's deliberate demonization. Osama bin Laden
wanted an aircraft to crash into the Pentagon. Abbie Hoffman merely wanted
to levitate it." -- Paul Krassner, http://tinyurl.com/ehu3v
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Peter Bowditch" <myfir...@ratbags.com> wrote in message
> news:h8noj2dk1076motm8...@4ax.com...
>
> >
> > If you ever need a bypass, Jan, don't forget to tell the doctor to
> > leave the blocked arteries right where they are because you don't want
> > to be one of the people who live a longer, more satisfying life
> > following the surgery.
>
> It has been established years ago that bypass surgery only lengthens life
> slightly in 9 years, the average time before the procedure fails.
Depends on the severity of the occlusive coronary disease, the
co-morbidities and the persistence of risk factors for disease
progression.
> It is
> considered a comfort procedure...ie you probably feel better afterwards.
If the procedure is being considered only for alleviating symptoms and
not for extending life, then non-invasive enhanced external
counterpulsation (EECP) should be tried first because it does have a
response rate of around 85% with virtually no risk of serious
periprocedural complications.
May GOD keep your heart beating, dear neighbor George whom I love
Vernon
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:1161592135.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20551
>>
>> Incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass surgery
>> has increased significantly
Those who have bypass surgery are already on high (dangerous) doses of
statins and other kidney / liver killing meds. If they weren't they are
immediately after (EVEN IF THEIR CHOLESTEROL IS ALREADY LOW)
Vernon
The phrase "peer review" is about as dumb as it gets. I think I know what
you are asking and it may be well required. The "peer" of a crook is a
crook. The "peer" of the uneducated is the uneducated.
You may have meant credible, statistical evidence please.
Vernon
>
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
> news:1161641340.6...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1161600555.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> > Actually, they do:
>>> >
>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
>>>
>>> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
>>
>> Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
>> practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
>> Please forgive all my iniquities.
>
> In other words, you can't back your claims. Data is not the plural of
> anecdote.
Who said?
Data is an anecdote.
Data are a series of anecdotes.
Credible data is a controlled set of anecdotes with all other reasonable
influencing factors taken into concideration.
>
> BTW, what hospitals do you practice at?
BTW, What is your training and experience?
Vernon
>
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
> news:1161648637.2...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> Andrew wrote:
>>> > Jeff wrote:
>>> >> Andrew wrote:
>>> >> > Actually, they do:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
>>> >>
>>> >> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
>>> >
>>> > Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
>>> > practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
>>> > Please forgive all my iniquities.
>>>
>>> In other words, you can't back your claims.
>>
>> No. Sorry you are unable to understand what I have written plainly.
>> Please forgive all my iniquities.
>
> I am able to understand what you have plainly written. However, your
> so-called "experience" as a non-invasive cardiologist who won't even say
> what hospital he practices at don't really back your claims. Real
> peer-reviewed research papers would.
Psych 101.
The best way to identify a liar is to witness that individual's automatic
accusations.
IF you don't believe the statements, go to your nearest cardiologist office
(or four of them) and educate yourself.
>
>>> Data is not the plural of anecdote.
>>
>> Each patient that has suffered acute renal failure status post CABG is
>> a datum.
>>
>> Many such patients is data.
>
> I did not know that a patient is the same as a datum. A datum may
> represent a patient, but no datum has a soul.
>
> While the information resulting from several patients may be called data,
> it does not mean that the data have any value.
Where is YOUR research? Before you challenge one set of data, you are
logically REQUIRED to have discenting data.
You have no such thing.
You don't intend on getting any.
You don't know how to get it.
Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's interesting.
I'm going to look into that."
Vernon
Flair
Vernon <anere@anhere> wrote:
> Repetitive troll alert!!!!!!!!!!
Too bad this thread has degenerated so much.
The Subject line caught my eye because my 81-year-old Father-In-Law is going
to have an angioplasty on one coronary artery, and a stent placed in
another, tomorrow.
This procedure will take place in NYC, and I understand that it will either
be taped and shown, or broadcast live to, a medical convention going on down
south somewhere.
I also understand that they will be using a relatively new technology to
cool his kidneys before the procedure is done.
I'm assuming this is being done to lessen the chance of kidney damage
occuring.
Vernon
"Flair" <Fl...@none.invalid> wrote in message
news:soidnVjMacu2tKPY...@comcast.com...
Although similar, angioplasty and stent insertion are not bypass and not
open heart surgery. If it weren't for possible problems with the stent in
the first couple days, it would verge on being out-patient.
It is interesting that they are going to keep the kidney temp under control.
I wouldn't know if it's for the same reason described by Chung. What is
known that any invasive technique, for heart or other, leaves some altered
blood (debris) and the kidney's job is to clean.
In an 81 year old it could also just mean a compromised kidney to begin
with.
Actually the biggest danger might be a NYC hospital with a NYC Doctor :>)
Flair
Vernon <anere@anhere> wrote:
> "Flair" <Fl...@none.invalid> wrote in message
> news:soidnVjMacu2tKPY...@comcast.com...
>> In news:453e253e$0$17465$882e...@news.ThunderNews.com,
>> Vernon <anere@anhere> wrote:
>>
>>> Repetitive troll alert!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Too bad this thread has degenerated so much.
>>
>> The Subject line caught my eye because my 81-year-old Father-In-Law
>> is going to have an angioplasty on one coronary artery, and a stent
>> placed in another, tomorrow.
>>
>> This procedure will take place in NYC, and I understand that it will
>> either be taped and shown, or broadcast live to, a medical convention
>> going on down south somewhere.
>>
>> I also understand that they will be using a relatively new
>> technology to cool his kidneys before the procedure is done.
>>
>> I'm assuming this is being done to lessen the chance of kidney damage
>> occuring.
>
> Although similar, angioplasty and stent insertion are not bypass and
> not open heart surgery. If it weren't for possible problems with
> the stent in the first couple days, it would verge on being
> out-patient.
Understood.
It was the 'kidney damage' part that interested me the most. As I
understand it, the procedure(s) being done tomorrow will both be done during
the same instance, and through his femoral artery.
> It is interesting that they are going to keep the kidney temp under
> control. I wouldn't know if it's for the same reason described by
> Chung. What is known that any invasive technique, for heart or
> other, leaves some altered blood (debris) and the kidney's job is to
> clean.
Again. I'm sorry for any confusion. And though I do understand that
opening one's femoral artery could be considered "invasive", he's (My F-I-L)
not having bypass surgery.
> In an 81 year old it could also just mean a compromised kidney to
> begin with.
Yes. That has already been established. His kidneys are beginning to fail,
but other than that, the man is active and the "picture of health".
> Actually the biggest danger might be a NYC hospital with a NYC Doctor
Columbia University Medical Center was the best I could find in the
immediate area. And the ONLY people who would even attempt to tackle the
job at hand.
I'm no Dr. But from what I'm told, my dad has at least one obstruction in
an area of his heart that's a "difficult repair". ANd I believe that's
where the stent will be inserted.
Vernon
"Flair" <Fl...@none.invalid> wrote in message
I was joking about NYC
>
> I'm no Dr. But from what I'm told, my dad has at least one obstruction in
> an area of his heart that's a "difficult repair". ANd I believe that's
> where the stent will be inserted.
What is interesting to me is tha angioplasty rather than stent in an 81 year
old, not the other way around. They must have thier reasons.
Flair
Vernon <anere@anhere> wrote:
Ok. :-)
>>
>> I'm no Dr. But from what I'm told, my dad has at least one
>> obstruction in an area of his heart that's a "difficult repair". ANd I
>> believe that's where the stent will be inserted.
>
> What is interesting to me is tha angioplasty rather than stent in an
> 81 year old, not the other way around. They must have thier reasons.
Again. I am NO Dr. But as I understand it, there are two different
arteries involved. One which is completely closed (that caused a "silent
heart attack a few months ago) that they are going to attrmpt to re-open via
angioplasty, and the other in which they are aiming to insert the stent that
is about 80% accluded.
And yes. This is being done on an out-patient basis if all goes well. He
will be staying overnight, but barring anything unforseen he will be home on
Thursday.
I'm just really curious about this kidney cooling/re-warming thing.
Thank you for your replies.
RArmant
wrote:
The placebo effect -- and what an expensive and risky placebo.
Jeff
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
news:453e24d9$0$17448$882e...@news.ThunderNews.com...
Chung made a claim. It is up to him to back it.
> Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's interesting.
> I'm going to look into that."
You're welcome to look into it yourself.
Jeff
Jeff
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
>
> "Jeff" <je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Axc%g.18397$UG4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
>> news:1161641340.6...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lo...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1161600555.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> > Actually, they do:
>>>> >
>>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
>>>>
>>>> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
>>>
>>> Sorry, you will have to settle for the clinical experience of a
>>> practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
>>> Please forgive all my iniquities.
>>
>> In other words, you can't back your claims. Data is not the plural of
>> anecdote.
>
> Who said?
I did.
> Data is an anecdote.
Not they aren't.
> Data are a series of anecdotes.
No, data are different than anecdotes.
> Credible data is a controlled set of anecdotes with all other reasonable
> influencing factors taken into concideration.
That certainly does not describe Chung's experience.
But you are wrong in saying that credible data are a controlled set of
anecdotes. According to Merriam-Webster's Online dictionary, an anecdote is
a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical
incident. Credible data are not just a set of stories.
Jeff
Jeff
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
And the peer of a scientist is a scientist. Peer-review means that a
research paper or article has been examined by a group of experts in the
field and has been found to be worthy to be published in a particular
journal.
However, I may see your point. I did not mean Chung's peers. I did mean real
scientists who are experts in the field.
Jeff
Jan Drew
Incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass surgery
has increased significantly
Excerpts:
The incidence of kidney damage associated with coronary artery bypass
surgery has increased significantly over the past 16 years in the United
States, but the rate of death from such damage has decreased significantly
during the period, according to a new analysis.
In their analysis of more than 5 million discharges from hospitals across
the United States, the researchers at Duke University Medical Center found
that the incidence of acute renal failure associated with coronary artery
bypass surgery increased almost five-fold during the study period. The
researchers estimate that approximately 20,000 cases of the disorder occur
nationwide each year.
The rate of death from acute renal failure caused by bypass surgery dropped
almost three-fold during the study period, the researchers said. Still,
patients with the disorder tend to have higher death rates, and also to
require longer hospital stays, than patients who do not experience kidney
damage after surgery.
The findings suggest that current strategies used to prevent acute renal
failure following bypass surgery may not be as effective as previously
thought, the researchers said.
More than 467,000 bypass procedures are performed each year in the United
States.
Most cases of kidney injury after bypass surgery are transient and cause no
serious damage, according to Madhav Swaminathan, M.D., an anesthesiologist
and senior member of the study team. But up to 2 percent of affected
patients will require kidney dialysis, and 60 percent of those patients will
die before hospital discharge, he said.
On average, bypass patients without complications spend about five days in
the hospital, while patients with acute renal may spend 20 days, Swaminathan
said.
How bypass surgery causes kidney damage is not exactly known, the
researchers said, but several possible culprits have been suggested. Damage
may be caused by alterations in blood flow that occur as a result of being
placed on a heart-lung machine during surgery, or damage may occur when tiny
bits of plaque break off of the walls of blood vessels, travel to the
kidneys, and block its tiny blood vessels.
Drugs used during the coronary artery bypass surgery also may also
contribute to the phenomenon, and recent Duke research has hinted at a
genetic susceptibility, the researchers added.
Nor do scientists fully understand the supposed benefits of the various
strategies currently used to protect the kidneys during and after surgery,
Swaminathan said.
"During surgery, we try to maintain hydration in the kidneys and keep them
flushed," he said. "After surgery, we adjust medication dosages to the level
of changing kidney function.
But, he added, there have been few randomized trials conducted testing drugs
to protect the kidneys. However, Swaminathan said, no single strategy or
drug has proved superior to standard therapy in reducing the incidence of
renal dysfunction after cardiac surgery.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew wrote:
> > Jeff wrote:
> >> Andrew wrote:
> >> >> Andrew wrote:
> >> >> > Actually, they do:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/890968b970e453f6?
> >> >>
> >> >> Peer-reveiwed evidence please.
> >> >
> >> > practicing board-certified invasive non-interventional cardiologist.
> >> > Please forgive all my iniquities.
> >>
> >> In other words, you can't back your claims.
> >
>
Then you can understand that choice to not reflect ability.
For example, though GOD has chosen not take from you HIS generous gift
of free will, know that not only is HE able to take away you free will,
HE can simply allow demonic possession to do so.
> However, your
> so-called "experience" as a non-invasive cardiologist
Actually, that would be my experience as an invasive non-interventional
cardiologist.
> who won't even say
> what hospital he practices at don't really back your claims.
That would be my choice to not broadcast information that would make it
seem that I seek martyrdom:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/stalking.asp
> Real peer-reviewed research papers would.
Peer-reviewed research papers are overrated.
For example:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4dd607154e5af674?
> >> Data is not the plural of anecdote.
> >
> > Each patient that has suffered acute renal failure status post CABG is
> > a datum.
> >
> > Many such patients is data.
>
> I did not know that a patient is the same as a datum.
There is much that you don't know.
> A datum may represent
> a patient, but no datum has a soul.
Did not write that data had soul.
> While the information resulting from several patients may be called data, it
> does not mean that the data have any value.
Discerning physicians know that experience is a valuable teacher.
> >> BTW, what hospitals do you practice at?
> >
> > This is not information to be broadcasted on usenet:
> >
> > http://HeartMDPhD.com/stalking.asp
>
> OK, do you have hospital privildges at any hospital?
Yes.
> If you don't have
> hospital priviledges, doesn't this make it hard to follow up on your
> patients?
>
> > Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
> > to prove in your continuance of this discussion that you are untruthful
> > in your hedging:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/672335704bf5dce4?
>
> ROFL.
"Written laughter is silent despair." -- Holy Spirit
Amen.
> Or, kettle meet pot.
Actually you remind me of the kettle that would call a mirror black
after seeing its own reflection.
> Asking you to tell what hospital priviledges you have, if any, is not
> stalking. It is asking for honesty.
It is the untruthful that does not see honesty in the truth.
Here is how to become truthful if you choose:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/fcb058da12bb3f3d?
May GOD in HIS infinite mercy and grace keep your heart beating to give
you time to understand this, dear neighbor Jeff whom I love
unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Vernon
I got up at 3:300 a.m. Do you want something to back it up?
He made a statement of his findings. Do you wish to just call him a liar?
The kidneys are sensitive to almost anything that happens to the body.
>> Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's interesting.
>> I'm going to look into that."
>
> You're welcome to look into it yourself.
I have and saw similar information before it was posted. The only surprise
was the fact that there is someone who questions it outright with zero
knowledge of the subject.
Vernon
John 12:40 applies to many here.
Vernon
You lost the discussion with your first post.
What do you call the documentation of someone or group of people having
kidney problems after heart surgery?
A series of factual anecdotes.
Now, rather than continue as an obvious troll, respond with some intelligent
comment on the possible relationship of heart surgery and the increased
incidence of kidney problems. You can't. Trolls never can.
Jan Drew
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for compelling you
to remind me of the following from Isaiah 6:
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the LORD seated on a throne,
high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above
HIM were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered
their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were
flying. And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of HIS glory."
At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the
temple was filled with smoke.
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and
I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King,
the LORD Almighty."
Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which
he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and
said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and
your sin atoned for."
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who
will go for US?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
HE said, "Go and tell this people:
'You will be ever hearing, but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
This people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."
Then I said, "For how long, O Lord?"
And HE answered:
"Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
until the LORD has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken.
And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land."
**** End of Isaiah 6 ****
Amen.
GOD's will be done and not our will.
May GOD continue to heal our hearts with HIS living water, dear brother
Vernon whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
Text Medium No. 5
>> Chung made a claim. It is up to him to back it.
>
> I got up at 3:300 a.m. Do you want something to back it up? He made a
> statement of his findings. Do you wish to just call him a liar? The
> kidneys are sensitive to almost anything that happens to the body.
>
>>> Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's
>>> interesting. I'm going to look into that."
>>
>> You're welcome to look into it yourself.
>
> I have and saw similar information before it was posted. The only
> surprise was the fact that there is someone who questions it outright with
> zero knowledge of the subject.
Clearly, you're not familiar with the certified quack, looney maroon, and
k00k, "Dr." Andrew B. Chung. Anything Chung states as fact must be held up
to scrutiny, because he is delusional and believes that he directly quotes
the "Holy Spirit", as well as k'laming that "God" has posted to usenet
(and, apparently, not just someone using the nick).
--
Shon'ai COOSN-029-06-71069
"I was told there would be cookies."
Cross-Poasters For Goddess!
Remember: Straight people can't help it!
A petition to make the Five-Fingered Hand of Eris
the official symbol for the planet Eris:
http://www.petitiononline.com/ffhoeris/
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Vernon wrote:
>
> >> Chung made a claim. It is up to him to back it.
> >
> > I got up at 3:300 a.m. Do you want something to back it up? He made a
> > statement of his findings. Do you wish to just call him a liar? The
> > kidneys are sensitive to almost anything that happens to the body.
> >
> >>> Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's
> >>> interesting. I'm going to look into that."
> >>
> >> You're welcome to look into it yourself.
> >
> > I have and saw similar information before it was posted. The only
> > surprise was the fact that there is someone who questions it outright with
> > zero knowledge of the subject.
>
> Clearly, you're not familiar with the certified quack, looney maroon, and
> k00k, "Dr." Andrew B. Chung.
Name-calling simply shows that you are lost:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/eb42672896d36d4b?
> Anything Chung states as fact must be held up
> to scrutiny, because he is delusional and believes that he directly quotes
> the "Holy Spirit", as well as k'laming that "God" has posted to usenet
> (and, apparently, not just someone using the nick).
It remains my choice to continue writing truthfully:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/175b5dc947a0781f?
May GOD in HIS infinite grace and mercy keep your heart beating to give
you time to understand this, dear neighbor whom I love unconditionally.
Vernon
"Text Medium No. 5" <mhm2...@meow.flonk> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.26....@hail.eris.flonk.meow.all.hail.discordia.meow.flonk.mockery.demon.not.really.leola...
> Hail Eris! On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:26:37 -0700, Vernon jabbered inanely:
>
>>> Chung made a claim. It is up to him to back it.
>>
>> I got up at 3:300 a.m. Do you want something to back it up? He made a
>> statement of his findings. Do you wish to just call him a liar? The
>> kidneys are sensitive to almost anything that happens to the body.
>>
>>>> Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's
>>>> interesting. I'm going to look into that."
>>>
>>> You're welcome to look into it yourself.
>>
>> I have and saw similar information before it was posted. The only
>> surprise was the fact that there is someone who questions it outright
>> with
>> zero knowledge of the subject.
>
> Clearly, you're not familiar with the certified quack, looney maroon, and
> k00k, "Dr." Andrew B. Chung. Anything Chung states as fact must be held up
> to scrutiny, because he is delusional and believes that he directly quotes
> the "Holy Spirit", as well as k'laming that "God" has posted to usenet
> (and, apparently, not just someone using the nick).
>
Your point?
I don't know Chung.
I do respond to subject matter.
It's like stating that a particular race has a higher incidence of sickle
cell anemia or the earth is round and some nut case says "Cite please".
I do know that he posts a lot of words having nothing to do with the subject
and has limited knowledge of the bible, but that has nothing to do with
kidney stress during any major surgery that temporarily limits circulation.
Text Medium No. 5
> "Text Medium No. 5" wrote...
>> Hail Eris! On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:26:37 -0700, Vernon jabbered inanely:
>>
>>>> Chung made a claim. It is up to him to back it.
>>>
>>> I got up at 3:300 a.m. Do you want something to back it up? He made a
>>> statement of his findings. Do you wish to just call him a liar? The
>>> kidneys are sensitive to almost anything that happens to the body.
>>>
>>>>> Now if you were anything but a troll, you might say, "That's
>>>>> interesting. I'm going to look into that."
>>>>
>>>> You're welcome to look into it yourself.
>>>
>>> I have and saw similar information before it was posted. The only
>>> surprise was the fact that there is someone who questions it outright
>>> with
>>> zero knowledge of the subject.
>>
>> Clearly, you're not familiar with the certified quack, looney maroon,
>> and k00k, "Dr." Andrew B. Chung. Anything Chung states as fact must be
>> held up to scrutiny, because he is delusional and believes that he
>> directly quotes the "Holy Spirit", as well as k'laming that "God" has
>> posted to usenet (and, apparently, not just someone using the nick).
>
> Your point?
> I don't know Chung.
> I do respond to subject matter.
>
> It's like stating that a particular race has a higher incidence of sickle
> cell anemia or the earth is round and some nut case says "Cite please".
If Chung states that this planet is spherical, ask for a cite. If he says
the sun rose in the east this morning, check.
> I do know that he posts a lot of words having nothing to do with the
> subject and has limited knowledge of the bible, but that has nothing to do
> with kidney stress during any major surgery that temporarily limits
> circulation.
If he makes any kind of claim on any topic whatsoever, don't take it for
granted that he might know what he's talking about, even if he says
something you can confirm as true. He's crazier'n batshit.
Vernon
"Text Medium No. 5" <mhm2...@meow.flonk> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.26....@hail.eris.flonk.meow.all.hail.discordia.meow.flonk.mockery.demon.not.really.leola...
Oh. O.K. it is just a personal vendetta on your part, fine.
He HAPPENED to make a statement (for who knows what reason) that is true.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Text Medium No. 5" <mhm2...@meow.flonk> wrote:
> > Vernon wrote:
> >> "Text Medium No. 5" wrote:
> >>> Vernon wrote:
> >>>
What the world would deem as random events do not happen by chance
(Proverbs 16:33).
Indeed, it remains my choice to continue to abide by the will of GOD by
continuing to write truthfully:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/175b5dc947a0781f?
May GOD continue to help your with your needs, dear Vernon whom I love
Demon Lord of Confusion
further by squeaking:
>>> I do know that he posts a lot of words having nothing to do with the
>>> subject and has limited knowledge of the bible, but that has nothing to
>>> do
>>> with kidney stress during any major surgery that temporarily limits
>>> circulation.
>>
>> If he makes any kind of claim on any topic whatsoever, don't take it for
>> granted that he might know what he's talking about, even if he says
>> something you can confirm as true. He's crazier'n batshit.
>
> Oh. O.K. it is just a personal vendetta on your part, fine.
Oh, hardly. I didn't even know he existed until last summer. No, I just
recognise a raving loon when I see one, and Chung, as hot as he is, is
definitely a looney maroon.
> He HAPPENED to make a statement (for who knows what reason) that is true.
Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
--
________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! mhm 29x21; TM#5; COOSN-029-06-71069
The God of Odd Statements, the Ugliest Pigfucker In The Universe
Stupidity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change.
If you never read anything else in any of my sigs, read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/
http://borealin.livejournal.com/15104.html
Or watch it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs
Then, if you manage to read/watch all that, try this:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
And Molly Ivins had a few choice words to say about it, weeks before:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092906B.shtml
Here's Chris Floyd: Fatal Vision: The Deeper Evil Behind the Detainee
Bill: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/100206A.shtml
"Q: What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A: George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War." -- Anon.
Thread where outing begins: http://tinyurl.com/hojf8
George Pickett Memorial Trophy, Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart,
and the Order of the Holey Sockpuppet winner <wfh...@hotmail.com> on
outing personal contact info in x-poasted subject lines:
"Plenty of people post under their real names and do not attempt to hide
their contact info. You are scared of being 'outed' because you are a
pathological abuser of usenet, and people rightly despise you for it.
You're afraid of being reported to the authorities or, better, visited
by a couple of guys with baseball bats. Other people don't have this
obsessive fear. Ward Hardman himself has posted plenty of personal
information - nothing that anyone else added was hidden in any way.
You're so fucking scared you've built up this whole sick mythology about
different categories of bad dudes who 'out' scum like you.
"Meanwhile you are the ugliest pigfucker in the universe. You are the
coward without ethics. You call me a 'newbie' - ha! what an asshole you
are. Those who want to remain anonymous do so. There is absolutely no
way you could identify me, not unless you had the sort of subpoena power
that only gets turned on for big-time terrorists. That's because I chose
to be anonymous. Some people don't. Only really stupid dicks like you
choose the sort of semi-anonymity which leaves you in constant fear.
"What a dickless wonder you are 'Snarky' you fat asshole."
-- in MID: <1156587081....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
"I am the only one who has outer filthed Ward" -- James C. "Crackhead"
Cracked voluntarily self-immolates, in MID:
1159678991.8...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com
"When I told Abbie Hoffman that he was the first one who made me laugh
since Lenny Bruce died, Hoffman said, "Really? He was my god." The
combination of satirical irreverence and sense of justice that Bruce and
Hoffman shared was the real spirit behind the Yippies--a term I coined to
describe a phenomenon that already existed: an organic coalition of stoned
hippies and political activists who engaged in such actions as throwing
money on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, then explaining to
reporters the meaning of that symbolism. Folksinger Phil Ochs summed it
up: "A demonstration should turn you on, not turn you off." So when
journalists link the Yippies with misleading bedfellows, at best it's
careless shorthand; at worst it's deliberate demonization. Osama bin Laden
wanted an aircraft to crash into the Pentagon. Abbie Hoffman merely wanted
to levitate it." -- Paul Krassner, http://tinyurl.com/ehu3v
Vernon
"Demon Lord of Confusion" <verwa...@verwirren.confused> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.27....@verwirren.confused...
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:39:46 -0700, Vernon attempted to confuse the issue
> further by squeaking:
>
>>>> I do know that he posts a lot of words having nothing to do with the
>>>> subject and has limited knowledge of the bible, but that has nothing to
>>>> do
>>>> with kidney stress during any major surgery that temporarily limits
>>>> circulation.
>>>
>>> If he makes any kind of claim on any topic whatsoever, don't take it for
>>> granted that he might know what he's talking about, even if he says
>>> something you can confirm as true. He's crazier'n batshit.
>>
>> Oh. O.K. it is just a personal vendetta on your part, fine.
>
> Oh, hardly. I didn't even know he existed until last summer. No, I just
> recognise a raving loon when I see one, and Chung, as hot as he is, is
> definitely a looney maroon.
>
>> He HAPPENED to make a statement (for who knows what reason) that is true.
>
> Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
>
> --
Yep, hate.
O.K.
Hawki
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
there is NO way to insert a stent than via angioplasty..also....only very
infrequently is either done in any way other than a femerol approach
>
>
>
Vernon
"Hawki" <Haw...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6Ha5h.8156$9v5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Duuhhh, It's no longer called angioplasty then.
Hawki
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
you must not spend much time in operating rooms...
angioplasty..by definition..is the insertion of a catheter...usually into
the femoral artery...threaded into the coronary arteries...for the purpose
of increasing the luminal size...sorta like a rota rooter does
in MOST if not all instances...a stent is threaded OVER the
catheter..inflated and then left in place to hopefully keep the occluded
area open
I don't know the exact numbers...but ALL stent placements involve doing an
angioplasty
again...do your research...
>
>
Skeptic
Angiography is the study of blood vessels. Catheterization is the process
of inserting catheters. Angioplasty refers to the dilation, typically with
a balloon, of an artery. Stenting refers to the placement of an artificial
stent and need not be at all associated with angioplasty.
Vernon
I spend plenty of time in and around operating rooms, doctors.
Once the purpose is to no longer blow a balloon but insert a stent it is no
longer called angioplasty.
So, you posted the definition above. Your definition was of angioplasty.
You proved yourself wrong.
Thank you.
Angio - plasti
Catheter with stent, not angio -plasti.
Hawki
Hawki
agreed
Catheterization is the process
> of inserting catheters. Angioplasty refers to the dilation, typically
> with a balloon, of an artery. Stenting refers to the placement of an
> artificial stent and need not be at all associated with angioplasty.
let me repeat...wrong....
stents are necessarily "associated" with angioplasty...
perhaps a google search will help...try Mayo Clinic...Mass General...etc...
I repeat...a stent cannot be inserted into a coronary vessel that is
occluded...
thus all placement of stents include angioplasty (inflating the balloon at
the end of the catheter)...
so please do explain HOW a stent can be inserted into an occuded vessel??
perhaps what you mean...is that not all plasties involve stents...but the
reverse is never true...
not to mention...angiography is intra vessel xrays using a dye to find such
occlusions...therefore...angiography is also required prior to plasty or
stents...
at least that is the way reputatable intervenational cardiologists do it...
>
>
Hawki
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
not sure where you are
it is called "angioplasty with stent"....which most angioplasties are...
>
>
Vernon
An arterial catheter is used for many purposes.
If a balloon is part of the catheter and inflated, it is called angio PLASTI
If a stent is attached to the end, it is called a stent placement or
emplacement.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. On a patient's record, for the
purposes of follow-up by a non originating Doctor, there would be a major
difference in treatment of sudden angina between recent "angioplasti" and
"stent emplacement".
In medicine as well as all science applications (let's forget about numb
numb daily use), specific use of words and semantics is all important.
Sloppy use results in death too often.
Vernon
The stent is inserted and then expanded. A totally occluded artery would
require laser treatment. The stent is inserted as a collapsed mesh ( often
smaller then the catheter. When in place, it is expanded, pushing the walls
out, hopefully "Locked" in the out position. Then we hope the body doesn't
try to reject the foreign substance.
It's called stent emplacement or for short "stenting"
Refering to the procedure as angioplasti is misleading, plain and simple,
misleading.
Skeptic
Ah, I see where you're going with this. Yes, you need to open a vessel
prior to stenting it. I thought you were implying that you can't have
angioplasty without stenting. We agree then.
Hawki
sorry...and yes we agree!!!
don't know where Vernon has been or done....but the USUAL protocol is to
insert the guide wire(which acts as a "rail" so to speak.....
first dye is injected so docs can observe areas of occlusion
if indicated...a balloon is threaded over the wire...it is
inflated...usually several times to squish the plaque against the lumen
walls...the balloon can be moved to other areas if occlusion is noted
elsewhere (not unusual)...
this is not for the faint of heart...balloons can break...pieces of plaque
can break off..chest pain usually worsens during times of balloon
inflation...etc..and worst of all....it is possible for the catheter to
puncture the arterial wall....voila..it is now a surgical emergency
....bottom line..always get an angioplasty (if possible) in a center that
has "open heart surgery backup)....tho nowadays it is not uncommon for
community hospitals to be doing them...this makes me nervous
lastly...again..don't have the stats..but a stent is "deployed " (actually
that is the word!!)...after the area of occlusion is opened...the stent is a
metal mesh scaffolding..very similar to those springy things inside a
ballpoint pen....angioplasty alone has about a 40% incidence of re
stenosis..so the stent can and hopefully does...reduce this reocclusion
rate..since once in there..the metal springie thing cannot be removed...
neither angioplasty nor stenting tho..are cures for the problem of coronary
artery disease...reduction of lipids...lifestyle changes...etc...are
necessary..and if stent...the patient may well be on meds like Plavix to
hopefully keep the clotting problem at the stent to a minimum...
and of course...a daily baby asa is a good thing...
an excellent resource is at www.angioplasty.org
have been thru all of this both personally and professionally...it is
scarey...
in addition of course are the "thrombolytic meds" that can and should be
given as the patient hits the ER door and is diagnosed via EKG with an acute
heart attack...the newer ones literally "melt" the clot away...I was amazed
to watch my hubby's face and pain level change within 10 minutes....we were
so impressed ..and had an RN friend at the drug company who recommended him
for interview and a page in the annual report!!! got us a trip to
SFrancisco
bad news is...he was within the %%% where the angioplasty was not long
lived..and the drug eluting stents were not on the market yet...two years
later he required CABG!!!!!
as we speak he is demo'ing a bathroom....
end of rant...
>
>
Hawki
"Vernon" <anere@anhere> wrote in message
true...may be used for measurement of arterial pressures in the cardiac
system...
> If a balloon is part of the catheter and inflated, it is called angio
> PLASTI
> If a stent is attached to the end, it is called a stent placement or
> emplacement.
this is where you are confused...the INITIAL device used on the arterial
catheter..after dye injection has located the area (s) of stenosis is ALWAYS
a tiny balloon.....
the balloon..thus angioplasty...is used to push back the plaque that is
occluding the vessel...
> Each has advantages and disadvantages. On a patient's record, for the
> purposes of follow-up by a non originating Doctor, there would be a major
> difference in treatment of sudden angina between recent "angioplasti" and
> "stent emplacement".
a stent can be threaded OVER the guide wire AFTER the balloon has widened
the occlusion...
the stent..as you described..is then "deployed"....ie...opened up and left
there...it cannot be removed...
again..and for the last time...angioplasty CAN be used without stent
stent cannot NOT be used without plasty first...
at least that is NOT the protocol used in anyplace I know of...
my hubby...who had a major MI...had thromboltics in the ER...next day he had
a plasty...they did NOT implant a stent (drug eluting ones not available in
US at that point....too bad)
two years later his "plasty" had reoccluded ...as do about 40% of non
stented ones...
he had CABG..."beating heart" open heart...yes they "cracked his
chest"...but avoiding use of the heart lung machine reduces the risk of
clots to brain and "pump head" .....not all surgeons are adept at this
method...
he was home in 72 hours...turns 67 next month and is currently demo'ing a
bathroom and volunteering for Habitat...
BTW..he also spent his entire exec career in the cardiovascular
business....pres of an international device manufacturer...and has been in
EVERY major heart operating room in the world...
not bragging....but we knew where to go...what to ask..and got a good
outcome..
and we have it all on a videotape..as he was a "teaching tool" for a major
device company...names to be excluded...
Hawki
just had to report that I just spent over an hour on the phone with my
hubby...the "device expert" and he cleared up a few things for me...
firstly...once the initial "empty catheter is inserted" ...the dye is
injected to show what is going on...this is called...of course "ANGIOGRAPHY"
once an area of occlusion is identified...the balloon catheter is inserted
(the initial catheter is literally hollow)...balloon catheters come in
different diameters etc...as obviously some coronary arteries are BIG and
others are much smaller...thus one balloon cannot be used in all
areas.....the "average" number of balloon catheters used per procedure is
about 3!!
once the occludded or narrowed area is pushed back...the cardiologist
decides whether or not a stent is indicated (not always..but about 70% of
balloon angios are then stented)....
the "stent" catheter is a different one than the balloon one....tho some
device manufacturer is working on a combo catheter...first a balloon to
inflate the area....then a stent to be deployed and left there (this
actually may already be on the market...hubby has not worked for 6 years)
if more than ONE stent is needed...not unusual BTW...each stent catheter can
only be used ONCE....thus the "used" catheter is withdrawn..and a `new one\
is inserted over the guide wire....again...not unusal for multiple catheters
to be used...sometimes the stent will not deploy..sometimes the balloon will
not inflate...thus those catheters must be removed..and discarded..no wonder
this can be an expensive procedure(tho defective one can be returned for
credit)...also why there can be a fair amount of blood at the femoral
insertion site....each time a catheter is removed....the docs and nurses
have to apply pressure...then as a new one is inserted...literally arterial
blood is spurting!!!
hopefully you have learned as I did!!! tho I had the majority of the facts
correct...I was wrong in assuming that the stents CAN be threaded OVER the
existing catheters..actually the balloons` AND the stents are part of each
catheter...both come in different sizes etc....
I did not get into drug eluting stents....tho most used now ARE....recent
studies are wondering whether they make much of a difference tho..
if you ask me....the biggest advantage of using plasty...is that the cath
lab can be mobilized in a shorter time than the cardiac operating
suite...thus...folks that arrive in the throes of an acute MI...can be given
thrombolytics...and shortly thereafter...can be ballooned and stented
the key to cardiac survival is the amount of cardiac muscle that is
damaged...