Please Assist: Help Requested for EDTN

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Hi:

Will someone please assist me in answering my questions in the below thread?

http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.deaf-l/browse_frm/thread/10f154c7215a31a6?scoring=d&hl=en

Thanks for your cooperation and understanding,

Radium

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 9:24 AM, in article 46fd2830$0$32509$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

You have certainly made a mess of making google searches. They should flush
all your posts so anyone wanting to search your latest interest might find
rational information.

[Richard Crowley]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote ...

Hard to cooperate or understand when you make up acronyms
apparently out of thin air and then demand that they be defined
and explained. It is the kind of scenario that would make a good
scene on Monty Python.

If "EDTN" is really an acronym that you didn't make up yourself,
tell us where you saw it. Even better trace it back through the
context yourself. You might learn something about research
instead of asking everyone else to do it for you.

[Jerry Avins]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Will someone please assist me in answering my questions in the below
> thread?

...

Where did you hear of your particular combination of letters? Isn't that
a good place to start if you want to track down its meaning? You seem to
have an idea that it's a kind of telephone service for people with a
particular disability. That's pretty specific. What makes you think so?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Crowley wrote:

> If "EDTN" is really an acronym that you didn't make up yourself,
> tell us where you saw it.

Quotes from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php :

"Baudot, CCITT and EDTN codes"

Quotes from
http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/69ccb7c241b916d2?hl=en&
:

"It's a long time since I had anything to do with this but the 'normal'
standards were/are Baudot, CCITT and EDTN."

Now would someone please assist me on this?

[Eeyore]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:

> Now would someone please assist me on this?

NO.

And stop spamming so many groups.

Graham

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 11:04 AM, in article 46fd3f93$0$20627$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

That you provide bullshit as information, doesn't help.

Your answer is here..... Google for "tted directive"

Include the quote marks.

[Richard Crowley]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:46fd3f93$0$20627$4c36...@roadrunner.com...

What happened when you asked Teletec?
What happened when you asked Peter Andrews?

Just throwing out questions like this clearly isn't getting you anywhere.
Your tone of insistence isn't winning you any friends, either.

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 11:16 AM, in article 46FD450D...@hotmail.com, "Eeyore"
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I found what he needs and posted it to his plea on the basics board.

[Jerry Avins]

Don't believe everything you read. Baudot code was a five-bit code for a
teletype-like machine (with two modal shift characters so some keys had
three meanings). CCITT was a standards organization, now superceded. For
all I know, Baudot may have been the subject of one of their standards.

What gives you an idea that EDTN has anything to do with deafness? If it
does, it may be similar to TTY/TDD in the U.S.

[IanB]

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:51:56 -0400, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:

>What gives you an idea that EDTN has anything to do with deafness? If it
>does, it may be similar to TTY/TDD in the U.S.

It's the European Deaf Telephone (Network) that is used in a few
European countries - Germany and Switzerland for example. It uses V21
modulation, but only one channel, and runs at 110 baud.

Took me less than 5 minutes to find using a search engine - the OP
couldn't have been trying too hard.
--
Ian

The from address is (currently) valid

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Don Bowey wrote:

> Your answer is here..... Google for "tted directive"
>
> Include the quote marks.

Did exactly that.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22tted+directive%22+&btnG=Google+Search

No results

[Richard Owlett]

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> Will someone please assist me in answering my questions in the below
>> thread?
>
>
> ...
>
> Where did you hear of your particular combination of letters? Isn't that
> a good place to start if you want to track down its meaning? You seem to
> have an idea that it's a kind of telephone service for people with a
> particular disability. That's pretty specific. What makes you think so?
>
> Jerry

Using *_ONLY_* information from his "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:04:03 -0700"
post and spending approximately 10 minutes with Google I came up with 10
URL's of agencies/firms which would be able to answer ANY legitimate
question or be willing/able to "tell him where to go" [intentional
double entendre]. The majority of sources are either commercial or
governmental sites. Remainder appear to be charitable sites.

All he would probably need would be a cogent reason for asking.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

On Sep 28, 12:00 pm, IanB <ol...@sunhillow.eu> wrote in
http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/b9ce4d219f7ce255 :

> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:51:56 -0400, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:

> >What gives you an idea that EDTN has
> >anything to do with deafness? If it
> >does, it may be similar to TTY/TDD in the U.S.

> It's the European Deaf Telephone (Network) that is used in a few
> European countries - Germany and Switzerland for example. It uses V21
> modulation, but only one channel, and runs at 110 baud.

Where did you find this information? Specifically, where did you find
that EDTN is “European Deaf Telephone Network”?

> Took me less than 5 minutes to find using a search engine

Really? What search engine did you use?

I used Google.

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 12:18 PM, in article 46fd5116$0$11008$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

You should not have stopped.

Google "tte directive"

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 12:15 PM, in article 13fqkm4...@news.supernews.com, "Richard
Owlett" <row...@atlascomm.net> wrote:

And enough effective intelligence to understand what is presented so he can
connect the dots.

[Eeyore]

IanB wrote:

> Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> >What gives you an idea that EDTN has anything to do with deafness? If it
> >does, it may be similar to TTY/TDD in the U.S.
>
> It's the European Deaf Telephone (Network) that is used in a few
> European countries - Germany and Switzerland for example. It uses V21
> modulation, but only one channel, and runs at 110 baud.
>
> Took me less than 5 minutes to find using a search engine - the OP
> couldn't have been trying too hard.

Why am I not surprised ?

He knows that already anyway ! Radium's posted about it before with an
exaplantion of what it means.

It's just more absurd attention seeking from the clueless idiot.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:

> Where did you find this information? Specifically, where did you find
> that EDTN is “European Deaf Telephone Network”?

You knew that already you lying sack of shit.

Graham

[IanB]

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:26:29 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

>Where did you find this information?

A couple of the sites I came across mentioned it - I can't remember
which ones. Nothing technical, just a brief description.

> Specifically, where did you find
>that EDTN is “European Deaf Telephone Network”?

I didn't. The "Network" bit was in brackets because I meant, but
forgot, to put a question mark in there as well.

>Really? What search engine did you use?

Microsoft Live Search

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

IanB wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:26:29 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
> <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

>>Specifically, where did you find
>>that EDTN is “European Deaf Telephone Network”?

> I didn't. The "Network" bit was in brackets because I meant, but
> forgot, to put a question mark in there as well.

So, IOW, you don't know for sure that EDTN equates to “European Deaf
Telephone Network”? I was afraid that would happen.

Whenever I've asked about EDTN [in relation to TDD], anyone who does
give an answer does not seem to know whether it is 100% correct. So my
suspicion was confirmed. !#%!$

Not trying to be a nuisance but I’m going crazy because of the
difficulty in answering my question.

Anyways, I am going to read the "TTE directive" and hopefully it will
answer my question.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Owlett wrote:

> Using *_ONLY_* information from his "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:04:03 -0700"
> post and spending approximately 10 minutes with Google I came up with 10
> URL's of agencies/firms which would be able to answer ANY legitimate
> question or be willing/able to "tell him where to go"

Will you please show examples of those “10 URL's of agencies/firms”?

[Richard Owlett]

If I could do it on *ONE* try using _ONLY_ info from *YOUR* post,

WHY CAN'T YOU???????????????????????????????????????

[dpi...@cartchunk.org]

On Sep 28, 4:30 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com>
wrote:

No. Do it yourself, for once.

Time and again people have tried to help you and you have
abjectly refused to then do the work you want done. You're a lazy,
annoying, stubborn pain in the ass.

Many participate in forums like this because they want
to help others purely out of a sense of altruism. You, Radium,
have a unique ability of squandering any sense of altruism
that people may have had towards you because of your
continued selfish, self-centered, rude demanding, whining
behavior.

People give you directions on how to do things and you
out and out refuse to follow them. Is it any wonder why people
lose patience with you? Do you REALLY not understand
why, when you act like a complete ass, you are treated like
a complete ass?

You claimed at one point to have Asberger's syndrom.
Find, sorry to hear that. But that's YOUR problem, and
you've made it ours. As far as any of us are concerned,
you are simply using AN as an excuse for your continued
bad behavior and to get out of the responsibility for its
consequences.

If you do indeed have AS, then it's your responsibility to
get treated for it and not spread your misery on the rest
of humanity. Until such time as you are ready to take
the responsibility and the action needed, go away,
or be prepared to be dealt with as you have.

Basically, you have problems and questions. You have
demonstrated that NONE of your problems and
questions have technical solutions or answers. Thus,
it would be a wise course for you to stop posting in technical
forums. It's a complete waste of everyone's time trying
to decode your nonsense and see if there is any real
content to your blithering. And, incidently, it seems to be
a waste of your effort as well, not that anyone cares.

You are, regrettably, a model of the old teaching-a-pig-
to-sing metaphor:

"Teaching a pig to sing is a doubly frustrating
pursuit: it's a huge amount of effort with no
possible reward, and it only succeeds in pissing
off the pig."

Now, go away, get medicated, get counseling, whatever.
Just go away.

[Eeyore]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:

That's because you're such an IDIOT, you can't even use google properly.

Graham

[Jerry Avins]

Don Bowey wrote:

...

> Your answer is here..... Google for "tted directive"
>
> Include the quote marks.

Typo. That's "tte directive".

[Jerry Avins]

My grandson has (had?) Asperger's. His mother, a neatnik, did for him
everything that might be messy. When he was ten years old, She dropped
dead while preparing supper as he watched. His grandmother -- we weren't
yet married -- rushed to help pick up the pieces, and made him pancakes
for breakfast at his request. He just sat and looked at them. It turned
out that he was waiting for her to cut them up. She handed him a knife
and his education began. I first met him when she brought him to our
house a week later for a brief stay. His first act on walking through
the door was to yank my beard and announce "It's real". He had a lot of
things to learn.

He's a senior in college now, and has been living on his own for over
three years. He's learned a lot. There's hope for Radium too if he
doesn't get his pancaked cut up for him.

[Jerry Avins]

Look, you dumb jerk. _Really look_. What did it say on that page of
"nothing"? Was there a line that started "Did you mean ...."?

[BobF]

http://crazy.codetroop.com/randimg/imgs/bart.gif

"Jerry Avins" <j...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:9_idnX-GGuAQ52Db...@rcn.net...

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Don Bowey wrote:

> You should not have stopped.
>
> Google "tte directive"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22tte+directive%22+&btnG=Google+Search

Checked the 1st 10 pages. Absolutely nothing about EDTN!!!!

Checked EDTN with "tte directive" below

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=EDTN+&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=tte+directive&as_oq=&as_eq=edition&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

Absolutely nothing at all!!!!

I hate to be so rude and demanding but WTF is going on
here??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

WTF don’t the websites about
Telecommunications-Terminal-Equipment-Directive say
anything about
EDTN????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Before I actually did a search on "tte directive", I was extremely
optimistic and had a positive attitude that the search would tell me
what EDTN stands for [in relation to TTYs], the technical specs about
EDTN, and perhaps some EDTN numbers I could dial to listen to the
desirable tones. I was so f---------------king wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now I am extremely upset and
disappointed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

None of those sites told me what EDTN stands
for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish EDTN stood for “European Deaf Telephone Network” but it doesn’t.
My wish is way way way too good to ever be true. If EDTN stood for
“European Deaf Telephone Network”, then that would make life way too
easy!!!!!!!

If EDTN stood for “European Deaf Telephone Network”, then my search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22European+Deaf+Telephone+Network%22&btnG=Google+Search
would have yielded the results I am looking for.

If EDTN stood for “European Deaf Telephone Network”, then my search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22European+Deaf+Telephone+Network%22&btnG=Google+Search
would show a lot more information than just my previous posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If EDTN stood for “European Deaf Telephone Network”, then my search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22European+Deaf+Telephone+Network%22&btnG=Google+Search
would describe how EDTN works and provide me with EDTN numbers which I
could dial so I could listen to EDTN tones from Switzerland!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, reality -- being the sick sadistic f--k it is -- decides
otherwise. Sadly, EDTN does not stand for “European Deaf Telephone
Network” when relating to textphone terminology.

So just WTF does EDTN stand for?

Also, WTF can I find EDTN phone numbers so I can dial them and listen to
those frightening-yet-enjoyable EDTN tones from
Switzerland??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!

I've never actually listened to EDTN tones but I'm 100% sure I'll enjoy
it. I've listened to American TDD tones by dialing local TDD numbers.

Dial 1-800-543-1586 and you'll hear the American TDD tones I am talking
about. This is an example of a TDD number used in the United States. I
want to hear the Swiss-equivalent of TDD.

What modulation scheme does EDTN use? FSK? QAM? Something else? What?

[Jerry Avins]

BobF wrote:
> http://crazy.codetroop.com/randimg/imgs/bart.gif

I'll see you and raise you one http://users.erols.com/jyavins/procfaq.htm

[nobody >]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

> I've never actually listened to EDTN tones but I'm 100% sure I'll enjoy
> it. I've listened to American TDD tones by dialing local TDD numbers.

I'll bet the National Federation for the Blind (or some other agency )
is just thrilled by your tying up a line while you get your tonal rocks
off.

Why don't you get a pair of function generators and beat them together?
Who knows...you just might find your personal nirvana noise.

Now go back in your k00klair and leave us alone.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Don Bowey wrote
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.basics/msg/f1a617da64d1eaa7 :

> Google "tte directive"

The TTED is a piece of stinky human kakaa which stinks like the stinky
thick, foamy, tickly, itchy, hissy, sticky, terrifying, disgusting,
annoying diarrhea kakaa foam of a human who eats stale, fat-free cheddar
cheese, rotten lentils, fig newtons, and farty cauliflower along with
his/her kakaa.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22tte+directive%22+&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=EDTN+&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=tte+directive&as_oq=&as_eq=edition&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

Absolutely nothing at all!!!!

I've never actually listened to EDTN tones but I'm 100% sure I'll enjoy

it. I've listened to American TDD tones by dialing local TDD numbers.

Dial 1-800-543-1586 and you'll hear the American TDD tones I am talking

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 1:28 PM, in article 46fd6158$0$7507$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

> IanB wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:26:29 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
>> <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>> Specifically, where did you find

>>> that EDTN is łEuropean Deaf Telephone Network˛?

>
>> I didn't. The "Network" bit was in brackets because I meant, but
>> forgot, to put a question mark in there as well.
>

> So, IOW, you don't know for sure that EDTN equates to łEuropean Deaf

> Telephone Network˛? I was afraid that would happen.
>
> Whenever I've asked about EDTN [in relation to TDD], anyone who does
> give an answer does not seem to know whether it is 100% correct. So my
> suspicion was confirmed. !#%!$
>

> Not trying to be a nuisance but Iąm going crazy because of the

> difficulty in answering my question.
>
> Anyways, I am going to read the "TTE directive" and hopefully it will
> answer my question.

And you need to know that not all terms are common to an industry, and may
be used by a single company in their literature..

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Don Bowey wrote:
> On 9/28/07 1:28 PM, in article 46fd6158$0$7507$4c36...@roadrunner.com,
> "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>>IanB wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:26:29 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
>>><gluc...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Specifically, where did you find

>>>>that EDTN is ³European Deaf Telephone Network²?

>>
>>>I didn't. The "Network" bit was in brackets because I meant, but
>>>forgot, to put a question mark in there as well.
>>

>>So, IOW, you don't know for sure that EDTN equates to ³European Deaf

>>Telephone Network²? I was afraid that would happen.
>>
>>Whenever I've asked about EDTN [in relation to TDD], anyone who does
>>give an answer does not seem to know whether it is 100% correct. So my
>>suspicion was confirmed. !#%!$
>>

>>Not trying to be a nuisance but I¹m going crazy because of the

>>difficulty in answering my question.
>>
>>Anyways, I am going to read the "TTE directive" and hopefully it will
>>answer my question.
>
>
> And you need to know that not all terms are common to an industry, and may
> be used by a single company in their literature..
>

Dude. I still haven't found out what EDTN means in terms of
textphones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay. I still haven't found out what EDTN means in terms of
textphones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jerry Avins]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

...

> The TTED is a piece of stinky human ...

You need to get those tantrums under control if you want to converse
with adults.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Jerry Avins wrote:

> You need to get those tantrums under control if you want to converse
> with adults.

Easy for you to say when you’re not frustrated and desperate for the
correct answer.

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 6:45 PM, in article 46fdabe3$0$7455$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

> If EDTN stood for ³European Deaf Telephone Network², then my search
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22European+Deaf+Telephone+Network%22&btn
> G=Google+Search

> would describe how EDTN works and provide me with EDTN numbers which I
> could dial so I could listen to EDTN tones from Switzerland!!!!!!!!!!

Why do you think that? Just because you WANT it to do that for you, doesn't
mean it MUST or WILL. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

>
> Unfortunately, reality -- being the sick sadistic f--k it is -- decides
> otherwise.

Reality is merely what it is where you recognize it. It is neither good nor
bad, but may be perceived as either.

> Sadly, EDTN does not stand for ³European Deaf Telephone
> Network² when relating to textphone terminology.

No, but I found a good reference to European Deaf Telephone (EDT).

>
> So just WTF does EDTN stand for?
>
> Also, WTF can I find EDTN phone numbers so I can dial them and listen to
> those frightening-yet-enjoyable EDTN tones from
> Switzerland??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!
>
> I've never actually listened to EDTN tones but I'm 100% sure I'll enjoy
> it. I've listened to American TDD tones by dialing local TDD numbers.

Perhaps they are similar, or identical.

I hope you do not find any numbers. You would be an insufferable pest.

>
> Dial 1-800-543-1586 and you'll hear the American TDD tones I am talking
> about. This is an example of a TDD number used in the United States. I
> want to hear the Swiss-equivalent of TDD.

According to what I found, the Swiss use the ETN protocol of V.18. Here is
a list you might want:

€ Baudot @ 45.45 baud (U.S. TTYs)
€ Baudot @ 50 baud (used in England, Australia, and some other
countries; also known as "international" Baudot)
€ V.21/text telephone version (used in Sweden, Norway, and Finland).
€ DTMF (used in Denmark, Holland, and some other countries)
€ EDT ("European Deaf Telephone," used in Germany, Austria,
Switzerland, and several other countries)

>
> What modulation scheme does EDTN use? FSK? QAM? Something else? What?

If you would apply yourself, you could know all.......

Maybe you should look for a terminal program that is compatible with the
protocols in the list. Then you could listen to them all you wish. Just
don't come back here asking us to find it for you.

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 7:48 PM, in article 46fdba85$0$15366$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

> Don Bowey wrote:

And then you had a fit or three.......

(snip)

I don't respond well to tantrums. If you won't help yourself, I won't do it
for you.

Shape-up or get lost.

[Eeyore]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:

Imagine our frustration at your inability to see the answer right in front of
your nose !

Graham

[Al in Dallas]

Looks like Bowey's error this time.

--
Al in St. Lou

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Don Bowey wrote:

> On 9/28/07 6:45 PM, in article 46fdabe3$0$7455$4c36...@roadrunner.com,
> "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

>>If EDTN stood for ³European Deaf Telephone Network², then my search
>>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22European+Deaf+Telephone+Network%22&btn
>>G=Google+Search
>>would describe how EDTN works and provide me with EDTN numbers which I
>>could dial so I could listen to EDTN tones from Switzerland!!!!!!!!!!

> Why do you think that?

Because usually it would. Not always but usually.

>>Sadly, EDTN does not stand for ³European Deaf Telephone
>>Network² when relating to textphone terminology.

> No, but I found a good reference to European Deaf Telephone (EDT).

Thanks but I already know about EDT. What does EDTN stand for?

>>Dial 1-800-543-1586 and you'll hear the American TDD tones I am talking
>>about. This is an example of a TDD number used in the United States. I
>>want to hear the Swiss-equivalent of TDD.

> According to what I found, the Swiss use the ETN protocol of V.18. Here is
> a list you might want:
>
> € Baudot @ 45.45 baud (U.S. TTYs)
> € Baudot @ 50 baud (used in England, Australia, and some other
> countries; also known as "international" Baudot)
> € V.21/text telephone version (used in Sweden, Norway, and Finland).
> € DTMF (used in Denmark, Holland, and some other countries)
> € EDT ("European Deaf Telephone," used in Germany, Austria,
> Switzerland, and several other countries)

Thanks but I already knew all of the above. I would like to know what
EDTN stands for. Why does a simple question have to get so complicated?

>>What modulation scheme does EDTN use? FSK? QAM? Something else? What?
>
>
> If you would apply yourself, you could know all.......
>
> Maybe you should look for a terminal program that is compatible with the
> protocols in the list. Then you could listen to them all you wish. Just
> don't come back here asking us to find it for you.

I've tried asking www.madsci.org which always rejects my EDTN questions.
I've also tried asking www.allexperts.com which often respond with "This
is out of my expertise".

After doing my own toilsome research and even asking those so-called
"experts", I am still not able to find what the EDTN acronym stands for.

This is why my posts are not so polite.

[Eeyore]

Al in Dallas wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> >"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
> >> Don Bowey wrote:
> >>
> >> > Your answer is here..... Google for "tted directive"
> >> >
> >> > Include the quote marks.
> >>
> >> Did exactly that.
> >>
> >> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22tted+directive%22+&btnG=Google+Search
> >>
> >> No results
> >
> >That's because you're such an IDIOT, you can't even use google properly.
>
> Looks like Bowey's error this time.

Google helpfully offers you this option ....
Did you mean: "tte directive"

Which delivers the required results.

How Radium could fail to see that is beyond my comprehension. Then again he seems
incapable of thinking for himself and wants to be spoon-fed.

Graham

[Don Bowey]

On 9/28/07 9:12 PM, in article 46fdce2c$0$32511$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

> Don Bowey wrote:
>
>> On 9/28/07 6:45 PM, in article 46fdabe3$0$7455$4c36...@roadrunner.com,
>> "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:
>

>>> If EDTN stood for ÑEuropean Deaf Telephone NetworkÇ, then my search
>>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22European+Deaf+Telephone+Network%22&b

>>> tn
>>> G=Google+Search
>>> would describe how EDTN works and provide me with EDTN numbers which I
>>> could dial so I could listen to EDTN tones from Switzerland!!!!!!!!!!
>
>> Why do you think that?
>
> Because usually it would. Not always but usually.
>

>>> Sadly, EDTN does not stand for ÑEuropean Deaf Telephone
>>> NetworkÇ when relating to textphone terminology.

>
>> No, but I found a good reference to European Deaf Telephone (EDT).
>
> Thanks but I already know about EDT. What does EDTN stand for?
>
>>> Dial 1-800-543-1586 and you'll hear the American TDD tones I am talking
>>> about. This is an example of a TDD number used in the United States. I
>>> want to hear the Swiss-equivalent of TDD.
>
>> According to what I found, the Swiss use the ETN protocol of V.18. Here is
>> a list you might want:
>>

>> ú Baudot @ 45.45 baud (U.S. TTYs)
>> ú Baudot @ 50 baud (used in England, Australia, and some other

>> countries; also known as "international" Baudot)

>> ú V.21/text telephone version (used in Sweden, Norway, and Finland).
>> ú DTMF (used in Denmark, Holland, and some other countries)
>> ú EDT ("European Deaf Telephone," used in Germany, Austria,

>> Switzerland, and several other countries)
>
> Thanks but I already knew all of the above. I would like to know what
> EDTN stands for. Why does a simple question have to get so complicated?
>
>>> What modulation scheme does EDTN use? FSK? QAM? Something else? What?

Why are you still asking this, when you now say all you want to know is the
meaning of EDTN? You have been given the essential parts to know the
answers.

>>
>>
>> If you would apply yourself, you could know all.......
>>
>> Maybe you should look for a terminal program that is compatible with the
>> protocols in the list. Then you could listen to them all you wish. Just
>> don't come back here asking us to find it for you.
>
> I've tried asking www.madsci.org which always rejects my EDTN questions.
> I've also tried asking www.allexperts.com which often respond with "This
> is out of my expertise".
>
> After doing my own toilsome research and even asking those so-called
> "experts", I am still not able to find what the EDTN acronym stands for.

Perhaps it is because you want the answer to be phrased a certain way, and
you are unwilling to see it in it's parts.

>
> This is why my posts are not so polite.

That is a poor excuse. I asked a doctor friend about AS..... It should be
within your ability to control yourself better.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

I am not.

> when you now say all you want to know is the
> meaning of EDTN? You have been given the essential parts to know the
> answers.

No I haven't been given the essential parts.

>>>
>>>If you would apply yourself, you could know all.......
>>>
>>>Maybe you should look for a terminal program that is compatible with the
>>>protocols in the list. Then you could listen to them all you wish. Just
>>>don't come back here asking us to find it for you.
>>
>>I've tried asking www.madsci.org which always rejects my EDTN questions.
>>I've also tried asking www.allexperts.com which often respond with "This
>>is out of my expertise".
>>
>>After doing my own toilsome research and even asking those so-called
>>"experts", I am still not able to find what the EDTN acronym stands for.

> Perhaps it is because you want the answer to be phrased a certain way, and
> you are unwilling to see it in it's parts.

I strongly doubt that. I think the answer is there somewhere [1 out of
10-the-power-10-billion places] but it is extremely difficult to find
because there aren't enough sources to make this answer readily
available. This due to the fact that I am one of the extremely small
minorities of the human population who is actually-interested in EDTN.
The majority simply don't care.

Or [and equally anger-causing for me], the EDTN is a company secret.
Those sick f--ks who make up the company that designed EDTN want to keep
EDTN classified so that no regular person knows about what it "codes"
for or how it works.

I suspect it's probably something that company is going to keep secret
from us. Sick f---scums.

Usually with protocols like EDTN -- where there isn't much info, I might
suspect that someone [or a lot of someones] is/are attempting to cover
up a type of technology.

I then get extremely curious angry and want to forcibly get information
as to how what the EDTN stands for and how it works and possible EDTN
phone numbers. I want to torture the designers -- into providing me the
information. Its only human nature to want something you know you can't
have.

I am so upset now that I want to find whoever designed EDTN and force
them [at oxy-acetylene-blowtorch point] to provide me with information
regarding what EDTN stands for [in relation to textphones], technical
specs of EDTN, and EDTN phones numbers of Switzerland. If they refuse,
I'd like to scorch their skins until they are white and foamy like the
foam produce by heating Parmasen cheese to sizzling point.

>>This is why my posts are not so polite.
>
>
> That is a poor excuse. I asked a doctor friend about AS..... It should be
> within your ability to control yourself better.

This ain't much -- if anything -- to do with AS. I was just in an
extremely bad mood.

[Richard Dobson]

Try this:

http://www.access-board.gov/telecomm/marketrep/appendices/v18.htm

Scroll down far enough and you will find "Annex C -- EDT Operational Mode".

The trick seems to be to search not on "EDTN" but on ITU and "V.18".
Also V.21.

It in unlikely that anyone has posted recordings of ring tones on the
net, as it would probably never occur to anyone to do that. So it may
well be that you will yourself be the one to do that (assuming it
doesn't contravene any legal stuff), and fill a major gap in web provision!

This page:

http://www.hearinglossweb.com/res/hlorg/tdi/cn/2003/itu_stdsc.htm

indicates EDT is only used in Germany and Italy; which might explain why
references on English-language pages are so hard to find; and why most
people on these lists (!) don't know much about it either, but are happy
to waste time and bandwidth displaying theier rudeness styles in public.

So don't imagine for one second that anyone on these lists will be
prepared to explain any of the jargon on these and other pages. Best to
find some real physical person you can talk to about over a cup of tea
or something. So it will depend where you are in the real world.
Gallaudet University seems to be a specialist in this area:
http://tap.gallaudet.edu/

See for example on that site:

http://tap.gallaudet.edu/Standards/ivr/TNixonslides.asp

This document also turned up:

epubl.ltu.se/1402-1617/2005/173/LTU-EX-05173-SE.pdf

It has 77 references to "EDT".

So it may well supply rather more than you wanted to know!

Richard Dobson

[Jerry Avins]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

...

> This is why my posts are not so polite.

Awww! Poor baby!

[Jerry Avins]

Don Bowey wrote:

...

> That is a poor excuse. I asked a doctor friend about AS..... It should be
> within your ability to control yourself better.

It should have been within my grandson's ability to cut up his own food
at age ten. He had to be taught and shown that it was.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Dobson wrote:

> Try this:
>
> http://www.access-board.gov/telecomm/marketrep/appendices/v18.htm
>
>
> Scroll down far enough and you will find "Annex C -- EDT Operational Mode".

Thanks but I already read that same stuff on another website.

> The trick seems to be to search not on "EDTN" but on ITU and "V.18".
> Also V.21.

> This page:

>
> http://www.hearinglossweb.com/res/hlorg/tdi/cn/2003/itu_stdsc.htm
>
> indicates EDT is only used in Germany and Italy; which might explain why
> references on English-language pages are so hard to find; and why most
> people on these lists (!) don't know much about it either, but are happy
> to waste time and bandwidth displaying theier rudeness styles in public.
>
> So don't imagine for one second that anyone on these lists will be
> prepared to explain any of the jargon on these and other pages. Best to
> find some real physical person you can talk to about over a cup of tea
> or something. So it will depend where you are in the real world.

The sick f--ks on those lists want interested individuals like me to
suffer.

Anyways, EDT is also used in Switzerland.

> Gallaudet University seems to be a specialist in this area:
> http://tap.gallaudet.edu/
>
> See for example on that site:
>
> http://tap.gallaudet.edu/Standards/ivr/TNixonslides.asp
>
> This document also turned up:
>
> epubl.ltu.se/1402-1617/2005/173/LTU-EX-05173-SE.pdf
>
> It has 77 references to "EDT".
>
> So it may well supply rather more than you wanted to know!

Do you think Gallaudet University will answer my question as to what
EDTN stands for?

[Richard Dobson]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

>
> Do you think Gallaudet University will answer my question as to what
> EDTN stands for?

No idea. Find a contact there and ask them directly. I never even heard
of them before I did that search. As far as I can see, EDT and EDTN are
in effect synonyms. EDTN seems to be the term provided to users in
consumer equipment blurb (maybe four letters is cool, three is uncool).
Seems to me that once you have got all the info you can about EDT, you
will find you have it for EDTN as well.

Richard Dobson

[Al in Dallas]

Most people 'round these here parts figure Radium is a troll and not
and honest inquirer. Just FYI.

[Jerry Avins]

I'm ready to believe that Radium is just a spoiled kid, sufficiently
taken with his intellectual power to believe (despite what experts tell
him/her) that one can reproduce music with one sample per second and
1/100th of a bit per sample. He knows that there hasn't been a decent
sound card made since FM synthesis went out of style, and who hasn't yet
been trained to go out in public. He may be housebroken, but he's not
"crowdbroken". I've seen it up close and dealt with it. The condition is
remediable if he/she wants remediation, but he/she doesn't seem to.
He/she's probably not really trolling, but we might as well deal with
him/her as if he/she is.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Jerry Avins wrote:

> I'm ready to believe that Radium is just a spoiled kid, sufficiently
> taken with his intellectual power to believe (despite what experts tell
> him/her) that one can reproduce music with one sample per second and
> 1/100th of a bit per sample.

I use to believe that music can be reproduced with one sample per second
1/100th of a bit per sample until I was taught differently by experts.
This was during December of '03. I've since been aware that it is
impossible. You can't have less than 1-bit-per-sample. In addition,
there is no such thing as a fractional bit.

> He knows that there hasn't been a decent
> sound card made since FM synthesis went out of style, and who hasn't yet
> been trained to go out in public.

Speaking of FM synthesis and sound cards.

Check out these two messages:

http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/cf85ad45be78a310

http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/db47ebf4fdfcf93c

[Richard Dobson]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
..

> Speaking of FM synthesis and sound cards.
>
> Check out these two messages:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/cf85ad45be78a310

Well of course that's all very familiar. And it would not be regarded as
"information" by most other people. You just have to understand that no
single opinion can possibly fit the tastes and needs of everyone. And
commercial companies have to meet the needs of the majority (a primary
need of which is "novelty") or they go out of business. You have a very
minority need for a commercially obsolete product. The trick therefore
is to learn enough about the technology to engineer your own version,
hardware or emulated. People have done this for other beloved audio
chips from old 6502-based computers etc. And if your tastes and opinions
do not develop and even change over time, life for you will be very dull.

"Better to light a lamp than curse the dardkness", and all that.

Richard Dobson

[Eeyore]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:

> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
> > I'm ready to believe that Radium is just a spoiled kid, sufficiently
> > taken with his intellectual power to believe (despite what experts tell
> > him/her) that one can reproduce music with one sample per second and
> > 1/100th of a bit per sample.
>
> I use to believe that music can be reproduced with one sample per second
> 1/100th of a bit per sample until I was taught differently by experts.

If you had as little as half a clue you could have found out why for yourself by
doing some minimal 'research'. Instead you insist on asking absurd quesions in
the hope of being spoon-fed the answers.

It's tiresome in the extreme.

Graham

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Eeyore wrote:

> "Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:

>>Jerry Avins wrote:

I already found the answer to this 4 years ago. Okay, 3.5 years ago.
Bits cannot be fractional and there can't be less than 1-bit/sample.

However, this is history. Its the past and its gone. I know realize my
mistake. More importantly, its totally irrelevant to EDTN.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Dobson wrote:

> The trick therefore
> is to learn enough about the technology to engineer your own version,

Oh and just how the !$!#%$ do I learn about this technology when
Creative-Technology -- being the sick f**k it is -- is keeping the
technical info of Creative Music Synth a secret???!!!

As you might have seen in the link I posted. I describe how I politely
asked them about information on Creative Music Synth. One person named
"Catherina" responded. This was the only reply I ever got to my
question. Before I read the reply, I was jubilant. I was extremely
optimistic and thought that person would assist me and tell me how
Creative Music Synth works and other wonderful technical details. I
couldn't have been more wrong.

The message by the Cathy b!+C# read "I've removed this message and any
similar messages because you posted them to more than one forum"

I was so upset and disappointed. I just wanted to find out where that
piece of Kathy human kakaa lives and burn her alive -- along with the
rest of Creative Technology.

F--k Creative Technology. F--k them for their crappy customer service.
F--k them for not talking to me about Creative Music Synth -- despite me
politely asking them and waiting patiently several times.

I hope Creative Technology dies the slowest, most painful, yet surest
death possible. I hope they are humiliated beyond imagination prior to
their execution.

I am so enraged at them that I feel like busting into their stations
with an oxyacetylene flame-thrower and forcing them -- with threats of
extreme skin-scalding torture -- to provide me with all the info about
Creative Music Synth. If they refuse, then I would like to scorch their
skins with yellow oxyacetylene flames until they die from pain-induced
shock. OTOH, I'd rather not stoop to their sub-fecal level as I don't
want to get pregnant with bubbas' kids.

Creative Technology = scumbag excuse for a company.

Despite what I've said above, I am an extremely compassionate and caring
individual. Philosophically, I can't justify vengeance. However, I
really have a hard time not wishing harm on cold-hearted scum like
Creative Technology and its "Catherina".

[Don Bowey]

On 9/30/07 10:44 AM, in article 46ffdddd$0$26390$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

But you still want to be spoon-fed.

The answer is out there if you will use your head. You cannot expect to
find it by searching on "EDTN"; you, personally, have made it almost
impossible with your *very* frequent, numerous posts. You must connect some
dots and be logical, not emotional, about the answer.

[Al in Dallas]

Amen! (Or do I mean "AOL"? :-) )

[Richard Dobson]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> Richard Dobson wrote:
>
>> The trick therefore is to learn enough about the technology to
>> engineer your own version,
>
>
> Oh and just how the !$!#%$ do I learn about this technology when
> Creative-Technology -- being the sick f**k it is -- is keeping the
> technical info of Creative Music Synth a secret???!!!
>

You've probably succeeded in putting them off from any help they might
have been able to give. But that wouldn't have been much, becuase the FM
you like so much comes actually from the Yamaha OPL3 FM chip (used in
lots of cards and even on some motherboards of Pentium 2 vintage); not
~designed~ by Creative Labs, just used by them.

You will find loads of OPL3-related info on the net - I even found a
patent about emulating it. There are documents outlining the exact
configuration of FM operator nodes, and how the mixture of 2-operator
and 4-operator tones are organised. Not so long ago, once could
actually buy the OPL3 chip, and use it as the foundation of a diy sound
board (and yes, there is an example of just such a project on the net).
However, it is so old now that supplies have almost certainly dried up.

This will only make sense if you know what the term "operator" means
with respect to FM synthesis. That is what "learn about the technology"
means. Nobody else can do that for you. Suffice it to say, people have
done whole emulations of a full-blown DX7 using Csound. With digital,
FM is FM is FM; if you know the operator structure (which ~is
documented; search on OPL3 and it will pop up pretty quickly) you can
emulate it in software. FM synthesis is one of the most comprehensively
documented synthesis techniques ever. There is a vintage Csound opcode
that does basic 2-operator FM, and of course more elaborate structures
can be built up using groups of basic oscillators.

And, guess what - there is a complete open-source OPL3 emulator
available on the net, in the form of a load of C++ code - look for
"adplug". It is used for a Winamp plugin module to play OPL3 music
files, such as you may be using even now on your Soundblaster. Of
course, to make use of it you have to be comfortable reading, building
and if necessary modifying C++ code.

What nobody on this list can know, since you have never revealed it, is
~exactly~ what you imagine "the technical info" is that you seek so
intently; and what you assume you will do with it when you have got it!

Richard Dobson

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Dobson wrote:
> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>
>> Richard Dobson wrote:
>>
>>> The trick therefore is to learn enough about the technology to
>>> engineer your own version,
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh and just how the !$!#%$ do I learn about this technology when
>> Creative-Technology -- being the sick f**k it is -- is keeping the
>> technical info of Creative Music Synth a secret???!!!

> You've probably succeeded in putting them off from any help they might
> have been able to give.

The only reason I've ever been rude to Creative Technology is because
they are such jerks. I was nice to them at first but they were mean to
me. So I took revenge but being impolite to them. It's their fault.

> But that wouldn't have been much, becuase the FM
> you like so much comes actually from the Yamaha OPL3 FM chip (used in
> lots of cards and even on some motherboards of Pentium 2 vintage); not
> ~designed~ by Creative Labs, just used by them.

The FM synthesis was initiated by Yamaha. However, I suspect that
Creative Technology made some alterations to it before putting it on the
SB16 card. These alterations could possibly change the way the synth
sounds. This is something they will not discuss because they are such
sick stingy secretive f--ks.

I am hoping this is not the case. I am hoping the SB16 ISA FM synth is
just the OPL3 given a different name but otherwise is exactly the same
as the Yamaha OPL3 FM chip -- this would really make my life a lot easier.

> You will find loads of OPL3-related info on the net - I even found a
> patent about emulating it. There are documents outlining the exact
> configuration of FM operator nodes, and how the mixture of 2-operator
> and 4-operator tones are organised. Not so long ago, once could
> actually buy the OPL3 chip, and use it as the foundation of a diy sound
> board (and yes, there is an example of just such a project on the net).
> However, it is so old now that supplies have almost certainly dried up.
>
> This will only make sense if you know what the term "operator" means
> with respect to FM synthesis. That is what "learn about the technology"
> means. Nobody else can do that for you. Suffice it to say, people have
> done whole emulations of a full-blown DX7 using Csound. With digital,
> FM is FM is FM; if you know the operator structure (which ~is
> documented; search on OPL3 and it will pop up pretty quickly) you can
> emulate it in software. FM synthesis is one of the most comprehensively
> documented synthesis techniques ever. There is a vintage Csound opcode
> that does basic 2-operator FM, and of course more elaborate structures
> can be built up using groups of basic oscillators.
>
> And, guess what - there is a complete open-source OPL3 emulator
> available on the net, in the form of a load of C++ code - look for
> "adplug". It is used for a Winamp plugin module to play OPL3 music
> files, such as you may be using even now on your Soundblaster. Of
> course, to make use of it you have to be comfortable reading, building
> and if necessary modifying C++ code.

If you read the links to the two messages I posted, you'll find that I
don't like emulation.

I want my synth to be hardware. I want it to be on a chip. It should
freshly-generate its tones in real-time -- just like the SB16 ISA FM
synth [i.e. Creative Music Synth] does.

Creative Music Synth is on an FM chip. It's purely hardware. That's what
I like. I don't want any sort of emulation or softsynths. Emulation stinks.

My Avance sound card uses OPL3 emulation. It sounds disgusting. I
returned the Avance piece-of-human-f**k and got the money back.

Nothing like the the real FM in my older SB16 ISA card.

[Richard Dobson]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
..

> The only reason I've ever been rude to Creative Technology is because
> they are such jerks. I was nice to them at first but they were mean to
> me. So I took revenge but being impolite to them. It's their fault.
>

Doesn't work. They won't feel they have been revenged upon (if they are
even aware of it - email is so easily ignored or dismissed as from a
"crank"), and it only has the effect of diminishing the view others have
of you. Rudeness doesn't work, ever, period. It is always the total
responsibility of the person using rudeness. So it is always your fault.
"Own your stuff". And by investing so much attention in that
company, you have missed the fact that there is shedloads of inforation
about the OPL3 and the SB cards elsewhere.

.
> The FM synthesis was initiated by Yamaha. However, I suspect that
> Creative Technology made some alterations to it before putting it on the
> SB16 card. These alterations could possibly change the way the synth
> sounds. This is something they will not discuss because they are such
> sick stingy secretive f--ks.
>

It isn't the sort of chip you can "alter" - but it is of course a
programmable chip at least at the patch level - they may well have
developed their own patches. They are a commercial company, and that
sort of information is their "intellectual property". Did you offer to
sign an NDA? Anyway, rather than waste time asking for such things,
people have figured out pretty much what those patches are, OPL3
emulators and music players are dotted all over the net. You can even
find patent documents with full technical data on the thing, as
published by Yamaha. It really is a no-brainer to find this stuff on the
net.

> I am hoping this is not the case. I am hoping the SB16 ISA FM synth is
> just the OPL3 given a different name but otherwise is exactly the same
> as the Yamaha OPL3 FM chip -- this would really make my life a lot easier.
>

If its an old card, might be the earlier OPL2. There were various
families of the OPL3 chip made. The main one is, acccording to the net,
marked YMF262, Information here for example:

http://www.oplx.com/opl3.htm

Of course, companies such as Creative bought chips in such quantities it
was easy for them to put their own label on them, for whatever reason.
There is information on the net about that too.

>
> If you read the links to the two messages I posted, you'll find that I
> don't like emulation.

..

> Nothing like the the real FM in my older SB16 ISA card.

So, either you stick with that card, or build your own, if you can lay
your hands on a viable mountable chip. There is this project here for
example:

http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp_opl3.html

I have for example hung onto an old Pentium machine as it has an ISA
slot, and "you never know when that might come in useful". So far it
hasn't, but...

The differences may not be in the FM side, but in the choice of DAC and
external analog cpomponents. But it is impossible to know what causes
the difference from what you write. Opinions do not impart information.
To account for why the emulators don't stack up you need clinical
objective analyses - different patch setups? Spectrum? Distortion? Needs
a cheap DAC to get the right sound? There are loads of sites discussing
the weaknesses of OPL3 emulation, but they don't waste time throwing
opinions such as "kakaa" around, they ~analyse~ and discuss, with a view
to getting hopefully better emulation, or at least, a clear
understanding of why the original device was so special. Be scientific!

I have done as much as I have time for, as it has amused me to find out
for myself what is available - it's a lot. So the rest is up to you.

Richard Dobson

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

On Oct 1, 1:36 am, Richard Dobson <richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
in
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/msg/2c3104de5b9a3eb1
:

> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

> > The FM synthesis was initiated by Yamaha. However, I suspect that
> > Creative Technology made some
> > alterations to it before putting it on the
> > SB16 card. These alterations could
> > possibly change the way the synth
> > sounds. This is something they will not
> > discuss because they are such
> > sick stingy secretive f--ks.

> It isn't the sort of chip you can "alter" - but it is of course a
> programmable chip at least at the patch level - they may well have
> developed their own patches. They are a commercial company, and that
> sort of information is their "intellectual property".

%RQ#$%$S!!!!!!!!

I want to know about those patches. I want to know if Creative
Technology made their own patches for the FM synth as well as the
technical info on those patches! Unfortunately they aren’t going to let
me know even a little bit of it!!!!

The patches affect the way the audio sounds. That’s what is making me so
interested and frustrated!!

> Did you offer to
> sign an NDA?

What’s that?

> Anyway, rather than waste time asking for such things,
> people have figured out pretty much what those patches are, OPL3
> emulators and music players are dotted all over the net.

How did they figure out Creative Technology’s patches unless they were
the ones who designed them?

> You can even
> find patent documents with full technical data on the thing, as
> published by Yamaha. It really is a no-brainer
> to find this stuff on the
> net.

Yes but they don’t give info on how Creative Technology changed the OPL3
synth -- via patches -- prior to soldering it into their SB16 ISA cards.
I hope this info isn’t necessary yet I fear it is.

> > I am hoping this is not the case.
> > I am hoping the SB16 ISA FM synth is
> > just the OPL3 given a different name but
> > otherwise is exactly the same
> > as the Yamaha OPL3 FM chip -- this
> > would really make my life a lot easier.

> If its an old card, might be the earlier OPL2. There were various
> families of the OPL3 chip made.
> The main one is, acccording to the net,
> marked YMF262, Information here for example:
>
> http://www.oplx.com/opl3.htm
>
> Of course, companies such as
> Creative bought chips in such quantities it
> was easy for them to put their own label on them, for whatever reason.
> There is information on the net about that too.

OPL3 is different from OPL2. OPL2 sounds the same in both the L and R
channels. OPL3 has signals that are different in the L and R channels.

I try playing Creative Music Synth [220], through my so called 'karaoke
voice canceller' -- which inverts the phase of one stereo channel [right
or left] and then combines it the other channel -- which results in
anything identical in both the left and right channels being removed. I
get a mono of what was different in the left and right channels.

When I play Creative Music Synth [220] audio through the
voice-canceller, it sounds more treble, sharper, brighter, warmer, and
crisper than when I don't use the voice canceller.

I can get the same effect if I use Wavelab [or other audio software] to
make a stereo recording of the MIDI audio and then invert the phase of
the one [but not both] of the channels -- left or right – and then I
convert the stereo file to mono.

Whether I use the voice-canceller or Wavelab to cancel the central
channel, the effect is the same – the sound is more treble, sharper,
brighter, warmer, and crisper.

Due to the above, my MIDI synth dream would be a mono,
64-bit-resolution, 2.88-Ghz-sample-rate, 40,000-voice,
4,000-operators-per-voice, 10,000-channeled**, version of Creative Music
Synth [220] based on the signals that were phased differently in the
original CMS220. CMS220 is a stereo FM synth whose left and right
signals are phased differently, this is why I get a different sound when
I “voice-cancel” them. The signals of CMS220 that have the same phase
for both L and R have a cheesy sine-wave quality which I don't care for.
The signals in CMS220 that are phased differently in L and R tend to
resemble a fresher sawtooth-wave quality which I like. That is why I
want my version of CMS220 to be based on the sounds that were phased
differently in the original CMS220. Also, I want my version to be
monaural because I want all speakers to give out the same signal.

**Yamaha's OPL3 has 18 channels

It’s likely the differences I describe [e.g. the differences I hear when
“voice-canceling” the FM audio] is due to the FM signals themselves.
This difference occurs because that’s how the FM chip was designed.
Whoever designed the chip, decided for it to work this way. Hopefully
this characteristic was originally part of Yamaha OPL3. However, I fear
that this was done by the patches of Creative Technology. The stubborn,
selfish, bastardly Creative Technology who are going to keep all the
patches secret.

The fear that the audio characteristics are due significantly to
Creative’s patches and that Creative is not going to tell me how they
work just makes me so upset.

It makes me want to burn them to extract info from them -- interrogation
style.

I pray that Creative Technology Ltd will be punished for their
cold-heartedness. They are so cold. Scorch their skins with oxyacetylene
flames to neutralize the coldness.

BTW, CMS emulation will always be worse than the real CMS. WTF don’t
they just make the real CMS chip?! Sure it’s expensive, but so
WTF?!?!!!???!?!?!?! Emulation is horrible. It makes me puke.

[Don Bowey]

On 10/1/07 10:39 PM, in article 4701d736$0$15404$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

(snip)

Blah, blah, rant, whine,useless drivel, etc.

[Richard Dobson]

Radium,

Your answers demonstrate why it is almost impossible to help you (any
who everyone on these lists is fed up with you), as your knowledge in so
many areas is so lacking:

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
..

> > Did you offer to
> > sign an NDA?
>
> What’s that?
>

Non-Disclosure Agreement. Standard agreement you sign with a company
before they will share sensitive information with you. Bread and Butter
of all professional Third-Party Developers.

> > Anyway, rather than waste time asking for such things,
> > people have figured out pretty much what those patches are, OPL3
> > emulators and music players are dotted all over the net.
>
> How did they figure out Creative Technology’s patches unless they were
> the ones who designed them?
>

It's called "reverse engineering", you have to be ~really~ smart to do
it, and when it comes to things such as FM patches, the procedure is (in
the absence of actual path data) to (a) know how FM synthesis works (b)
understand the implementation you are using (i.e the OPL3) and (c)
change synthesis parameters until the sound matches the one you are
trying to copy. So you need a good critical ear too.

.
> Yes but they don’t give info on how Creative Technology changed the OPL3
> synth -- via patches -- prior to soldering it into their SB16 ISA cards.
> I hope this info isn’t necessary yet I fear it is.
>

So you don't even know what a "patch" is? You hardly understand how the
things works at all. It is not something they change on the chip prior
to soldering (not that sort of chip...), it is FM parameter editing done
in software, typically using a "patch editor". Have you never ever
created your own patches for your FM synth? Another name would be
"preset" or even "voice". I fear you hardly understand the very
technology you are infatuated with! How could you understand the
information even if Creative Labs gave it to you?

.
>
> OPL3 is different from OPL2. OPL2 sounds the same in both the L and R
> channels. OPL3 has signals that are different in the L and R channels.
>

So OPL2 is mono, OPl3 is stereo. Use the jargon!

You need a patch editor. Ideally you would be using Linux, in which case
you can use a patch editor such as this:

http://repetae.net/john/computer/opledit/

If you are stuck with Windoze, you will just have to search the net for
a Windoze patch editor. Must be one around somewhere. Only when you
already know how it all works will you be able to ask a question here
that anyone will be at all interested to answer!

Richard Dobson

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Dobson wrote:

I contacted them almost a month ago. I still haven't gotten any answerns
on EDTN!

Also, for this past month I've dedicated my research to finding what
EDTN stands
for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still haven't found s--t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF is going on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quotes from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php :

"Baudot, CCITT and EDTN codes"

WTF does this EDTN stand for??????????!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

It's so f-------------king frustrating when I've worked your @$$ off
trying to find out what EDTN stands for in terms of
textphones/telephones and still haven't found out what that stubborn
acronym stands for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

> It's so f-------------king frustrating when I've worked your @$$ off

My @$$ not yours!!!! Sorry!!!!!!!! F---king typos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jerry Avins]

Take your meds and stay away until they've had time to have an effect.

[Randy Yates]

Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> writes:

> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>>
>>> It's so f-------------king frustrating when I've worked your @$$
>>> off
>>
>> My @$$ not yours!!!! Sorry!!!!!!!! F---king typos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Take your meds and stay away until they've had time to have an effect.

I've been using usenet for 15 years and this may be the first time I
actually take the effort to learn how to kill-file someone.
--
% Randy Yates % "And all that I can do
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % is say I'm sorry,
%%% 919-577-9882 % that's the way it goes..."
%%%% <ya...@ieee.org> % Getting To The Point', *Balance of Power*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Don Bowey]

On 10/28/07 7:53 PM, in article 472548a5$0$32524$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

(snip)

Yes, the answer is out there and it can be "determined." I found it and so
can you. Think research.

Learn to seek what you want instead of brow-beating others to do it for you.
Whining won't help either.

[Don Bowey]

On 10/28/07 8:07 PM, in article 47254be7$0$19656$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

You were correct the first time.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Don Bowey wrote:

> Yes, the answer is out there and it can be "determined." I found it and so
> can you. Think research.

Really? You found it? Then please tell me what EDTN stands for before I
go insane and continually dream about burning-to-death those who
designed EDTN and formed that acronym.

> Learn to seek what you want instead of brow-beating others to do it for you.
> Whining won't help either.

I am not demanded that others do my work for me. If I could find the
answer, I wouldn't be posting in the 1st place. However, despite my hard
toilsome efforts, I still found one hint of what EDTN means. So please
inform me. If you don't, then I will keep have dreams of taking revenge
against whoever formed the EDTN acrnomyn only to wake up and realize
that the culprit it still out there teasing me like a mean schoolyard bully.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>
>> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>>
>>> It's so f-------------king frustrating when I've worked your @$$ off
>>
>>
>> My @$$ not yours!!!! Sorry!!!!!!!! F---king typos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> Take your meds and stay away until they've had time to have an effect.
>

If you accidentaly posted something that embarassing, you'd be as upset
as I am and try to let others know you didn't mean to write it.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> I still found one hint of what EDTN means.

Sorry. That should read "I still *haven't* found one hint of what EDTN
means."

[Don Bowey]

On 10/28/07 10:45 PM, in article 472570e0$0$24323$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

Let me rephrase my post for better accuracy: Yes, an answer is out there
but it must be "determined." You will not find EDTN defined. I found the
answer and so can you. Think research.

[Jeff Liebermann]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> hath wroth:

>I contacted them almost a month ago. I still haven't gotten any answerns
>on EDTN!
>
>Also, for this past month I've dedicated my research to finding what
>EDTN stands
>for

EDT is European Deaf Telephone. It's the phone and protocol used in
Germany and Italy for text telephones. It's based on the V.21
protocol. In the USofA, instead of EDT, we use Baudot.

I have no idea where you got EDTN out of that. It might mean European
Deaf Telephone Network, but I'm guessing.

Now, go away please.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> hath wroth:

> I have no idea where you got EDTN out of that. It might mean European
> Deaf Telephone Network, but I'm guessing.

Quotes from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php :

"Baudot, CCITT and EDTN codes"

Here!

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Please at least give me some
hints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Richard Owlett]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

As I told you before, I used your his "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:04:03 -0700"
post and Google to come up with 10 possible sources for information. A
*POLITE COURTEOUS* received an informative response in 2 days.

[John Fields]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 22:21:20 -0800, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

---
Instead, how about a clue?

Nobody likes you. Go away.

--
JF

[Richard Owlett]

My reply should have read:

As I told you before, I used your his "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:04:03 -0700"
post and Google to come up with 10 possible sources for information. A

*POLITE COURTEOUS* email received an informative response in 2 days.
^^^^^

[Peter K.]

Randy Yates <ya...@ieee.org> writes:

> I've been using usenet for 15 years and this may be the first time I
> actually take the effort to learn how to kill-file someone.

You have far more patience than I do, then! Or maybe we just read
different newsgroups, apart from comp.dep.

Ciao,

Peter K.

--
"And he sees the vision splendid
of the sunlit plains extended
And at night the wondrous glory of the everlasting stars."

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

My email address is glucegen1b_at_excite_dot_com

You must have sent mail to glucegen1_at_excite_dot_com which I don't use.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Please resend the email to
glucegen1b_at_excite_dot_com

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

I can't. I am too interested in what the EDTN acronym stands for. Since,
despite my hard work, I haven't found that out, I am getting a bit
upset. I am desperate and hence my interest turns into frustration. I
then fantasize about going after those who formed the EDTN acronyms and
forcing them -- via threats of skin-flaming torture -- to tell me what
EDTN means, to provide me with all technical information regarding EDTN,
and to give me all the existing Swiss EDTN phone numbers so I can dial
them and listen to those lovely tones.

[John Fields]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:30:32 -0800, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

---
Bullshit.

All you're interested in is playing stupid games.

--
JF

[Don Bowey]

On 10/28/07 11:21 PM, in article 47257943$0$32486$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

I did.

[Jerry Avins]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:

...

> I can't. I am too interested in what the EDTN acronym stands for. Since,
> despite my hard work, I haven't found that out, I am getting a bit
> upset. I am desperate and hence my interest turns into frustration. I
> then fantasize about going after those who formed the EDTN acronyms and
> forcing them -- via threats of skin-flaming torture -- to tell me what
> EDTN means, to provide me with all technical information regarding EDTN,
> and to give me all the existing Swiss EDTN phone numbers so I can dial
> them and listen to those lovely tones.

When a dog habitually pisses on your shoe to get attention, you quickly
learn to kick it when it comes near. Buzz off.

Jerry

--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

[Jeff Liebermann]

EDT is a data protocol that is built on top of some wire line
transmission protocol. They goofed and mean't EDT, not EDTN. It
should be obvious from lack of references that EDTN is non-existent.

As for listening to the tones, it would be the same at V.21 at
110baud. Yawn....

Method - Main Characteristics - Used in
Minitel - V.23 modem. 1200/75 bit/s, videotex protocol- France
EDT - V.21 110 bit/s one channel, carrier only while sending -
Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain, Malta
Nordic V.21 - V.21 300 bit/s full duplex, 7 bit, even parity, one
stop bit - Sweden, Norway, Finland
British V.21 - V.21 300 bit/s full duplex - UK
DTMF - Combination of tone dialling codes into characters - Denmark,
Holland
Baudot or TDD - FSK method with 45.45 bits/s and 1400/1800 Hz - USA,
Ireland, Iceland and partly UK
Bell - 300 bit/s full duplex - USA
http://speech.di.uoa.gr/hestia/books/telecomm/chap4-1.html

Now, will you please go away?

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> hath wroth:
>
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> hath wroth:
>>
>>
>>>I have no idea where you got EDTN out of that. It might mean European
>>>Deaf Telephone Network, but I'm guessing.
>>
>>Quotes from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php :
>>
>>"Baudot, CCITT and EDTN codes"
>>
>>Here!

> EDT is a data protocol that is built on top of some wire line
> transmission protocol. They goofed and mean't EDT, not EDTN. It
> should be obvious from lack of references that EDTN is non-existent.

How can you be so sure that they goofed? I hope you're right, but I fear
not. This fear turns to extreme anger when confirmed that EDTN does
exist [and is significantly different from EDT] but people --
particularly those who formed the EDTN acronym and designed that
technology -- simply refuse to talk about it. Or, I am the only one
interested in EDTN. Either way, I get equally angry and desperate.

> As for listening to the tones, it would be the same at V.21 at
> 110baud. Yawn....

You are assuming EDTN is actually EDT. I hope your assumptions are true,
that way I can stop asking questions. However, I fear [and strongly so]
that you are incorrect.

> Method - Main Characteristics - Used in
> Minitel - V.23 modem. 1200/75 bit/s, videotex protocol- France
> EDT - V.21 110 bit/s one channel, carrier only while sending -
> Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain, Malta
> Nordic V.21 - V.21 300 bit/s full duplex, 7 bit, even parity, one
> stop bit - Sweden, Norway, Finland
> British V.21 - V.21 300 bit/s full duplex - UK
> DTMF - Combination of tone dialling codes into characters - Denmark,
> Holland
> Baudot or TDD - FSK method with 45.45 bits/s and 1400/1800 Hz - USA,
> Ireland, Iceland and partly UK
> Bell - 300 bit/s full duplex - USA
> http://speech.di.uoa.gr/hestia/books/telecomm/chap4-1.html

Thanks, but I already know all of the above. I've also visited that
webpage more than a gazillion times.

[Richard Dobson]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
..
>

>> EDT is a data protocol that is built on top of some wire line
>> transmission protocol. They goofed and mean't EDT, not EDTN. It
>> should be obvious from lack of references that EDTN is non-existent.
>
>
> How can you be so sure that they goofed? I hope you're right, but I fear
> not. This fear turns to extreme anger when confirmed that EDTN does
> exist [and is significantly different from EDT] but people --
> particularly those who formed the EDTN acronym and designed that
> technology -- simply refuse to talk about it. Or, I am the only one
> interested in EDTN. Either way, I get equally angry and desperate.
>
>> As for listening to the tones, it would be the same at V.21 at
>> 110baud. Yawn....
>
>
> You are assuming EDTN is actually EDT. I hope your assumptions are true,
> that way I can stop asking questions. However, I fear [and strongly so]
> that you are incorrect.
>

He's not assuming, he's telling you. There are no conspiracies with
respect to telephony protocols! If there were, the internet woudl be
awash of refernces to it. It is impossible to deal with you if you
reject all responses out of "fear" - unless of course you actually want
to summon up those neuroses for yourself, regardless of the evidence; in
which case there relaly is no point in carrying on. This is a fear-free
zone.

In any case cyberspace is so chockablock with all your enquiries about
"EDTN" that they are the only things that show up on a search now! You
have succeeded in buring the very leaf you were interested in in a
forest of your own devising.

And if you do not trust replies here - well that is another reason for
not posting questions!

Richard Dobson

[John Fields]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:05:20 -0800, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> Method - Main Characteristics - Used in
>> Minitel - V.23 modem. 1200/75 bit/s, videotex protocol- France
>> EDT - V.21 110 bit/s one channel, carrier only while sending -
>> Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain, Malta
>> Nordic V.21 - V.21 300 bit/s full duplex, 7 bit, even parity, one
>> stop bit - Sweden, Norway, Finland
>> British V.21 - V.21 300 bit/s full duplex - UK
>> DTMF - Combination of tone dialling codes into characters - Denmark,
>> Holland
>> Baudot or TDD - FSK method with 45.45 bits/s and 1400/1800 Hz - USA,
>> Ireland, Iceland and partly UK
>> Bell - 300 bit/s full duplex - USA
>> http://speech.di.uoa.gr/hestia/books/telecomm/chap4-1.html
>
>Thanks, but I already know all of the above. I've also visited that
>webpage more than a gazillion times.

---
Then it would seem that any sensible person who had done the same
would realize that he doesn't have the capability of understanding
the material and move on, instead of blaming everyone else for his
frustration.

--
JF

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

John Fields wrote:

> Then it would seem that any sensible person who had done the same
> would realize that he doesn't have the capability of understanding
> the material and move on, instead of blaming everyone else for his
> frustration.

I am capable of understanding the material, if only the info about EDTN
was provided to me.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Dobson wrote:

> In any case cyberspace is so chockablock with all your enquiries about
> "EDTN" that they are the only things that show up on a search now!
> You
> have succeeded in buring the very leaf you were interested in in a
> forest of your own devising.

That's the EDTN personnels' faults for not making new web pages and
describing what EDTN stands for. Yeah, I am aware that the only thing --
apart from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php -- that show
up are my posts. This is very annoying and frustrating for me. I want to
burn all EDTN personnel alive with oxyacetylene flames until their last
screams. I want them to feel the suffering they've caused me by not
telling me what EDTN stands for, not giving me technical details about
EDTN, and not providing me with Swiss EDTN phone numbers.

Those who do wrong deserve punishment. By being silent about EDTN, the
personnel of EDTN and perpetrating an immoral act and hence deserve to
be punished as brutally as possible. Burn them.

Those who made the EDTN acronym are sick scum. Anyone who is part of the
scumgang who made that acronym deserves to be punished. He/she should be
put through the following scenario on a hot and dry day -- in which the
sky has few high white clouds [no grey or low clouds] scattered around
-- at about 11:00 AM of that day:

1. All his/her voluntary muscles [and their fibers] -- excluding
breathing muscles but including speech muscles -- should be relaxed to a
state of total paralysis [no amount of stimulation (whether neural or
direct electric stimulation of the muscle fibers) should be able to
cause these muscles to contract or "un-relax"]. This will make him/her
unable to move or vocalize.

2. While his/her breathing muscles should not be paralyzed, his/her
voluntary control of them should be totally lost [this means that his/
her autonomic nervous system will have complete control over his/her
respiration].

3. The motor nerves supplying his/her voluntary muscles -- including
speech muscles but excluding breathing muscles -- should also be relaxed
into total paralysis [these motor nerves should be hyper-polarized] and
unable to "un-relax".

4. His/her entire autonomic nervous system [and their effectors],
his/her heart's natural pacemaker, his/her tear-production, his/her
natural pain-relieving -- and stress-relieving -- mechanisms, smooth
muscles [including those in the respiratory system], endocrine,
hormonal, inflammatory, lysosomal, and immune systems should remain
totally unresponsive to the infliction of even the most excruciating
pain, totally unresponsive to any type of injury [regardless of
severity], and totally unresponsive to any emotion or psychological
state [regardless of intensity].

5. The parts of his/her brain that deal exclusively with movement,
contraction/relaxation of all voluntary muscles [including speech
muscles but excluding breathing] muscles should also be relaxed into a
state of hyperpolarization.

6. The parts of his/her brain that deal solely with voluntary -- but not
involuntary -- control of breathing should also be relaxed into
hyperpolarization.

7. All pain reflexes -- somatic and visceral -- should be totally paralyzed.

8. All psychological protective mechanisms should be completely
disabled.* [See notes on psychological protective mechanisms]

9. All mechanisms that decrease consciousness as a result of pain should
be disabled. Here is an example of that mechanism:

Quote from http://www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm :

"It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain impulses
to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily injury. The
reticular activating system responds by producing a functional "shut
down", which results in loss of consciousness within a second or two."

Once again this mechanism should be completely disabled.

10. Any mechanisms that specifically allow emotions, will, or
psychological states to alter any perceptions -- including pain
perception -- should be completely disabled.

11. All parts of his/her body contain VRL-1 nerve-endings -- in which
those VRL-1 functions as thermal pain receptors -- should be scorched
with smokeless, charless, sootless, ashless, emberless, non-toxic,
clean, non-polluting, orangish-yellow oxyacetylene flames until his/ her
body is completely dehydrated from the flame's heat.** [See notes on
VRL-1 nerves]

The flame burn injuries will cause severe dehydration and loss of blood
volume by heating up the skin's water and causing it to evaporate. Shock
sets in as the blood continues to thicken. After 2 immeasurably-long
hellish hours the scumslime who is involved in keeping EDTN a secret
will most likely die. The sick f--k will be in SO much pain and distress
yet totally unable to express any hint of it; not even a single tear
drop will be shed from his/her eyes. Such cold-hearts deserve such
fates. It's called "eye for an eye."

*Psychological protective mechanisms:

http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/71/suppl_1/i18 quotes :

"In psychogenic coma the eyelids are kept firmly shut and are resistant
to opening. Oculocephalic responses are unpredictable though nystamus is
evident on caloric testing. Motor tone is normal or inconsistent and
limb reflexes retained. Other physical signs based on reflex self
protection have been used in this syndrome though their validity has not
been formally assessed. The EEG shows awake rhythms."

Quotes from
http://www.ttmed.com/dementia/text_books.cfm?ID_Dis=216&ID_Cou=237&ID_Book=1669&id_chapter=11710&id_subtext=11723
:

"Pseudocoma, also known as psychogenic unresponsiveness or feigned coma,
is difficult to diagnose and should be based on a diagnosis of exclusion
because, if true coma is overlooked, the result could be disastrous.
Therefore, all patients with coma suspected of being psychogenic in
origin must undergo thorough evaluation until the diagnosis is clearly
established. A conversion reaction and malingering are the most common
causes of pseudocoma."

"It is important to remember that none of the historical data absolutely
include or exclude the possibility of pseudocoma. However, there are
some clinical findings suggestive of psychogenic origin, such as
conditions precipitated by stress. Pseudocoma usually begins or persists
when an observer is present. Patients with pseudocoma slump to the floor
and protect themselves from hitting their heads and other body parts."

"During examination, patients with pseudocoma usually make
semipurposeful avoiding movements. They have normal pupils, corneal
reflexes and plantar reflexes. They may keep their eyes firmly shut and
resist the opening of the eye by examiners. Because eyelid tone cannot
be changed at will, in patients with true coma passive eyelid opening is
easy and is followed by slow eyelid closure. Blinking also increases in
feigned coma, but decreases in true coma. Passive eye opening in a
sleeping or an actually comatose person results in mydriasis if the
pupillary reflex mechanisms are intact. Conversely, opening the eyes of
a person who is awake produces miosis. The eyes roll up when the lids
are raised, known as Bell's phenomenon as mentioned before, in patients
with psychogenic pseudocoma, while the eyes remain in the neutral
position in patients with real coma. Roving eye movements cannot be
imitated and their presence indicates true coma. In contrast, voluntary
saccadic eye movements seen in feigned coma are usually faster and
briskly with a well-defined endpoint. Pseudocoma patients may respond
with purposeful movement to painful stimulation and avoid unpleasant
stimuli such as a nasal tickle. The presence of nystagmus during cold
caloric testing suggests that coma is either feigned or hysterical,
because nystagmus requires an intact cerebral cortex and brainstem.
Additionally, cold water caloric stimulation is noxious and can induce
nausea and vomiting, or awakening in patients with psychogenic coma."

"Similarly to patients with pseudoparalysis, the hands of patients with
pseudocoma do not often hit their face when dropped. However, the
diagnostic validity of this kind of self-protection sign has not been
evaluated convincingly. Furthermore, unethical provocative maneuvers,
such as dropping alcohol in the nostrils or olfactory stimulation using
ammonium, should not be used to induce responsiveness in patients deemed
to be in feigned coma."

Quotes from
http://www.memorylossonline.com/glossary/psychogenicamnesia.html :

"Psychogenic amnesia (also called functional amnesia) is a form of
amnesia which occurs in otherwise healthy people -- i.e., it is not the
result of a brain injury. It involves loss of important personal
information. Another term for this condition is functional amnesia."

"In one form of psychogenic amnesia, called fugue state, individuals may
forget not only their pasts but their very identities. Despite the many
Hollywood movies depicting this phenomenon, fugue state is extremely
rare in real life. Fugue state normally resolves with time, particularly
with the help of therapy."

"A more common form of psychogenic amnesia is dissociative amnesia. In
this state, an individual may experience memory loss which is restricted
to a particular period of time, such as the duration of a violent crime.
This memory loss is too extensive to be explained by ordinary
forgetting, and instead may reflect the fact that the information is too
stressful or traumatic to be remembered. Dissociative amnesia is a
psychological phenomenon, rather than a physiological one, and may often
be resolved with the help of therapy."

More on psychogenic blackouts [escapes] which must be prevented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogenic_amnesia

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3225/is_n1_v41/ai_8773339

http://www.psych.uic.edu/education/courses/behav_science2000/reed/behavscilimbic03132000/sld023.htm

**VRL-1 nerves:
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Pain.html

TRPV2 (also called VRL-1) responds to temperatures above 52 Celsius.
"Painfully hot"

VR-1 responds to capsaicin. VRL-1 does NOT. There is a world of difference.

VRL-1 responds only to "painfully hot"

VR-1 responds to hot, chili, and acids.

Once again, there is a BIG difference between VR-1 and VRL-1. Read the
quotes from
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Pain.html :

"TRPV1 (also known as VR1) = Hot (>43 Celsius). Also activated by
capsaicin, the active ingredient of hot chili peppers, by camphor, and
by acids (protons)."

"TRPV2 (also called VRL-1) = Painfully hot (>52 Celsius)"

http://www.islandnet.com/~yesmag/brain/brainbump.php?id=95

"VR1 for hot, and VRL1 for super hot."

In the skin, VRL-1 serves as a thermal nociceptor. However in the
viscera, lungs and other internal organs, VRL-1 has a totally different
purpose.

So dermal VRL1-excitation is significantly more painful than VR1
excitation. This is why thermal burns are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more
agonizing than acid-burns of the same depth. This is also why
"temperature hot" is a lot more algogenic than "chili hot". All cuz of
those nasty VRL-1s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, these EDTN-concealing bullies deserve to roast alive over a
cheese-colored fire.

A flaming suit [device that aims flames at the bully's skin] should be
custom-built to fit the size and shape of the bully after he/she has
gone through the steps 1-10, I described. The flame suit fits the entire
body of the bully. Right after steps 1-10, the bully is stripped
completely naked -- to prevent smoke-inhalation from ignited clothing.
Only then is he/she put into the flame suit. Then the flaming starts and
his/her skin turns to white blistering foam, even if the bully is
dark-skinned. In fact, the burn wounds are far more apparent in a
dark-skinned individual because his/her skin is mostly dark while the
burn wounds are white due to thermal denaturation of the skin's
pigments. The flames are made by smoothly igniting oxyacetylene and then
feeding it the through the flame suit. Sodium ions are mixed with the
oxyacetylene to give the flames a terrifying
orangish-yellow--reddish-pink color.

Once the body is completely dehydrated, the flames are turned off, and
the bullying-scumfoam is left to die under the afternoon sun outdoors.
Well, actually, all of this occurs outdoors in the type of weather I
described.

The bully will be in excruciating pain and will want to die. In about
120 minutes, his/her wish will surely be answered, as dehydration
reaches fatal extents. The area in which he/she suffers in dies should
be a sandy open area. So right after the fire, put him/her in the dirty
dusty sand.

The color of the flame, and the weather will only add to the horror of
the burn injuries. All other EDTN-concealers should be made to watch as
this bully dies his/her slow, painful, yet sure death before it's their
turn to be punished.

Not to mention, the burn wounds look like white foam. This
characteristic appearance is terrifying and sickening to most viewers.
However, these wounds still not nearly as scary as the color and shape
of the flames.

Creative Technology Ltd deserves the same punishment for not telling me
about their patches used on “Creative Music Synth” -- the chip-based FM
synth present in the SB16 ISA card.

[John Fields]

---
Aww, poor baby...

It should be provided to you with no effort on your part other than
asking for it instead of you taking the responsibility for ferreting
it out for yourself?

Why?

--
JF

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

Green Xenon [Radium] babbled like a lunatic:

<snip reason="nothing of any importance or interest" />

Radium, you are a raving lunatic.

Please do *NOT* post to this newsgroup until you have taken you
medication and left time for that medication to take effect.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Every line of code you write that you feel gross about will ultimately
come back to haunt you. Therefore, avoid writing code that makes you feel
dirty." -- Scott Hanselman

[Don Bowey]

On 10/29/07 4:56 PM, in article 472670a6$0$26370$4c36...@roadrunner.com,

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote:

> Richard Dobson wrote:
>
>> In any case cyberspace is so chockablock with all your enquiries about
>> "EDTN" that they are the only things that show up on a search now!
>> You
>> have succeeded in buring the very leaf you were interested in in a
>> forest of your own devising.
>
> That's the EDTN personnels' faults for not making new web pages and
> describing what EDTN stands for. Yeah, I am aware that the only thing --
> apart from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php -- that show
> up are my posts. This is very annoying and frustrating for me. I want to
> burn all EDTN personnel alive with oxyacetylene flames until their last
> screams. I want them to feel the suffering they've caused me by not
> telling me what EDTN stands for, not giving me technical details about
> EDTN, and not providing me with Swiss EDTN phone numbers.

(snip the extensive rant)

Good job! That was the most excessive tantrum I've ever encountered.

From what you've said, there is, clearly, no point in telling you anything,
because you aren't prepared to accept the truth when it's given to you. And
it HAS been given to you. Unfortunately.

You need to stop your excessive behavior, and focus on actually studying
what you read. Stop looking for the answers you want, and try to understand
what is presented in your searches. Keep an open mind, and what you need to
know will become clear.

If you continue to ask others for answers, you will never learn to learn.

Now, knock of the troll crap and grow-up.

[Richard Dobson]

Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> Richard Dobson wrote:
>
>> In any case cyberspace is so chockablock with all your enquiries about
>> "EDTN" that they are the only things that show up on a search now! You
>> have succeeded in buring the very leaf you were interested in in a
>> forest of your own devising.
>
>
> That's the EDTN personnels' faults for not making new web pages and
> describing what EDTN stands for.

[stream of drivel deleted]

There ~are~ no "EDTN personnel". It's a ~typo~. It doesn't stand for
anything other than a standard shorthand for 'edition'. Have you never
seen such a thing before? And in any case it is nobody's ~duty~ to give
you or anyone any information at all, about anything, unless there is
actually some legal imperative to do so. There in none in this case. So
if someone is generous enough to give you information, receive it with
grace and gratitude, or else move on. Either way, move on. All you are
doing with such rants is ensure nobody will ever volunteer information
to you at all, as they see what the result will be!

Richard Dobson

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

What you're expecting me to do is equivalent to you being expected to
fly without any equipment other than your body. That's why.

[BobF]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:47266b90$0$9590$4c36...@roadrunner.com...

Go to a book store. Look in Newton's Telecom Dictionary. If it's not
listed, it's not important.

[Jeff Liebermann]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluc...@excite.com> hath wroth:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> EDT is a data protocol that is built on top of some wire line
>> transmission protocol. They goofed and mean't EDT, not EDTN. It
>> should be obvious from lack of references that EDTN is non-existent.

>How can you be so sure that they goofed?

I'm only 86.345% certain that they goofed. This is based upon the
observation that the few relevent references to EDTN have been nothing
more than quotes of previous references to EDTN and that none of these
bother to expand on the acronym. If Google can't find it, then it
doesn't exist.

>I hope you're right, but I fear not.

I fear things other than a "not", whatever that may be. Why do you
fear a "not"? Does it bite?

>This fear turns to extreme anger when confirmed that EDTN does
>exist [and is significantly different from EDT] but people --
>particularly those who formed the EDTN acronym and designed that
>technology -- simply refuse to talk about it. Or, I am the only one
>interested in EDTN. Either way, I get equally angry and desperate.

Don't worry. You'll find other things to get angry about. If you
seek frustration, I suggest a career in any available bureaucracy.
With your attitude and methodoly, I'm sure you won't rise very
quickly, which is guaranteed to create the anger you seek. Please
note that your pension and retirement plan will be revoked if you
attempt to do something drastic about your anger.

>> As for listening to the tones, it would be the same at V.21 at
>> 110baud. Yawn....
>
>You are assuming EDTN is actually EDT.

Assumption, the mother of all screwups. However, in this case, the
lack of substantiating evidence requires a leap of faith, also known
as an assumption. If Google can't find it, then it doesn't exist.

>I hope your assumptions are true,
>that way I can stop asking questions.

If I didn't suspect that you would leave and go away satisfied that
there are no EDTN tones, I would never have bothered to answer. If
Google can't find it, then it doesn't exist.

>However, I fear [and strongly so]
>that you are incorrect.

First, you fear a "not". Now, you're afraid of a "strongly so".

>> http://speech.di.uoa.gr/hestia/books/telecomm/chap4-1.html
>
>Thanks, but I already know all of the above. I've also visited that
>webpage more than a gazillion times.

One more time won't hurt, much.

Incidentally, someone mentioned Newton's Telecom Dictionary.
<http://www.harrynewton.com>
That's probably a good idea. $27 on Amazon. However, make sure you
get a fairly current edition. About 500 new terms get added with each
edition. Mine ancient edition is in my palatial office, so I can't
lookup EDT and EDTN.

[Green Xenon [Radium]]

Richard Dobson wrote:
> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
>
>> Richard Dobson wrote:
>>
>>> In any case cyberspace is so chockablock with all your enquiries
>>> about "EDTN" that they are the only things that show up on a search
>>> now! You have succeeded in buring the very leaf you were interested
>>> in in a forest of your own devising.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's the EDTN personnels' faults for not making new web pages and
>> describing what EDTN stands for.
>
> [stream of drivel deleted]
>
> There ~are~ no "EDTN personnel". It's a ~typo~. It doesn't stand for
> anything other than a standard shorthand for 'edition'. Have you never
> seen such a thing before?

Yes. You're talking about edtn as an abbrreviation, in which it stands
for edition. I am talking about the acronym EDTN. There is a world of
difference. Please consider that.

Quotes from http://www.teletec.co.uk/minicoms/uniphone.php :

"Baudot, CCITT and EDTN codes"

Remember that.

Does the term "edition codes" makes sense at all? Didn't think so.

"Baudot code" makes sense.

"CCITT code" makes sense.

"Edition codes" does not make sense. So there you go, EDTN does not
stand for 'edition' in relation to telephony.

http://www.connevans.com/products/textphone_comparison.pdf

"Baudot, CCITT. and EDTN."

More EDTN stuff:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=edtn+%28telephone+OR+textphone+OR+deaf+OR+tdd+OR+tty%29+-edition+-radium+-usenet+-google+-glucegen+-archive+-glucegen1&btnG=Search

Much googling but nothing related to what the EDTN acronym stands for in
terms of textphones and telephones.

> And in any case it is nobody's ~duty~ to give
> you or anyone any information at all, about anything, unless there is
> actually some legal imperative to do so. There in none in this case. So
> if someone is generous enough to give you information, receive it with
> grace and gratitude, or else move on. Either way, move on. All you are
> doing with such rants is ensure nobody will ever volunteer information
> to you at all, as they see what the result will be!

Well, those who are cold-hearted deserve to have their coldnesses
cancelled by the extreme heat of cheddar-cheese-colored oxyacetylene
flames slowly, softly, and closely tickling their skins into dehydrated
white foam.