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donald haarmann

unread,
May 17, 2007, 4:01:21 PM5/17/07
to
being closet pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."


Nature 447, 141 (10 May 2007) | doi:10.1038/447141a; Published online 9
May 2007

Chemistry: Teetering on the edge
Emma Marris1
1. Emma Marris is a reporter for Nature based in Washington DC.

Abstract

Why do chemists make compounds that could blow up in their faces?
Emma Marris finds out…from a safe distance.
Explosives come in many varieties, from military munitions to rapidly
inflating airbags. But useful explosives share one thing: stability. A clear
advantage of trinitrotoluene, or TNT — whose punch is used as a yardstick for all
other explosives — is that it remains safe and solid until detonated. So why
would anyone want to make a highly unstable explosive? One that will release its
energy on the slightest provocation?
Because they are chemists, and they like explosions, is the popular
answer. Because they are chemists, and they like a technical challenge, is what
those doing the work say. How convincing is that?
Explosives release energy stored in chemical bonds in a runaway process
that often turns solids into gases, expands material massively and creates heat.
In big explosions, pressure waves radiate out from the origin, keeping the
reaction going throughout the material. When detonated, TNT decomposes
violently into a gas, some soot, and a boom. Many explosive compounds are less
stable than TNT — some are so temperamental or hard to make that they will
probably never be used in practice.
Consider this warning for tetraazidomethane, a particularly wild member of
the group of compounds known as polyazides, which have a general reputation
for removing student eyebrows. "Tetraazidomethane is extremely dangerous as a
pure substance. It can explode at any time — without a recognizable cause."
Klaus Banert at the Chemnitz University of Technology in Germany was
the first to synthesize this compound. He says that less than a drop of it
destroyed the glass trap and the Dewar flask of the cooling bath they used to
isolate it (K. Banert et al. Angew. Chem. Int. Edn 46, 1168–1171; 2007).
"Although we had expected explosive properties of tetraazidomethane, we were
deeply impressed by its destructive force," he says.
His team had to work behind a safety shield and wear gloves, face shields
and ear protectors. Banert says that when it was all over, he was relieved. The
lab had taken all reasonable safety precautions but he had still been worried
while the experiment was underway.
So why did they do it? Was it the adrenaline? The childhood lure of
explosions? Banert says that it was the pure challenge of the synthesis. "I
received my first chemistry set at the age of 11 and continued very intensively for
several years performing chemical experiments at home. I was also interested in
explosives at that time," he says. "But explosions were only of secondary
importance."
For tetraazidomethane, Banert says that it was an ambitious target to fill
this gap in the family of high-energy density materials. "The structure of
tetraazidomethane had already been calculated, and it was predicted that the
compound theoretically should be able to exist."
Derek Lowe, a medicinal chemist and author of the popular chemistry blog
'In the Pipeline' runs an occasional item on 'Things I Won't Work With'. Among
them are the polyazides. But he can see the appeal of making highly explosive
compounds. "These molecules do not want to exist. They are never going to form
naturally or spontaneously. These things are teetering right on the edge of not
being feasible, and you can be the first to make it."
To strengthen the case that it is the synthesis, not the destruction, that
excites such minds, consider the work of Philip Eaton at the University of
Chicago, Illinois. In the 1960s, Eaton made cubane — a cube with a carbon at
each corner. Then, at the suggestion of an army general, he went on to
synthesize a highly explosive compound called octanitrocubane (M.-X. Zhang, P.
E. Eaton & R. Gilardi. Angew. Chem. Int. Edn 39, 401–404; 2000).
Octanitrocubane has the same pattern, but with nitrogen dioxide bound to each
corner carbon atom. "The problem," says Eaton, "was how the devil to make it."
The tricky synthesis has, he explains, many, many steps. "In the course of the
whole thing we made less than a gram." Eaton can't estimate how much more
explosive it is than TNT, except to say "a lot".
The idea was that the density of the structure would pack a high explosive
power into a small volume — something that was important to the military when
bulky guidance-system computers were hogging too much space in missiles. But
octanitrocubane is just too hard to make for it to have any role in the military for
the foreseeable future. Eaton is just pleased he figured out how to synthesize it.
And he did it, he repeats, for the pure love of the challenge. "The explosiveness
has no allure for me at all. I was not the kind of kid who made explosives." The
proof? He never set off so much as a milligram of the stuff.
"There may be some folks who like that sort of thing, but they don't tend to
last very long," agrees Lowe. "Chemists have a reputation have a reputation for being closet
pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."

--
donald j haarmann
-------------------------------
Men offer love in hope of getting
sex; women offer sex in hope of
getting love; both are cheated.
Richard J Heedham


d....@hotmail.com

unread,
May 17, 2007, 4:35:46 PM5/17/07
to
On May 17, 1:01 pm, "donald haarmann" <donald-

haarm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> being closet pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."
>
> Nature 447, 141 (10 May 2007) | doi:10.1038/447141a; Published online 9
> May 2007
>
> Chemistry: Teetering on the edge
> Emma Marris1
> 1. Emma Marris is a reporter for Nature based in Washington DC.
>
> Abstract
>
> Why do chemists make compounds that could blow up in their faces?
> Emma Marris finds out...from a safe distance.

> Explosives come in many varieties, from military munitions to rapidly
> inflating airbags. But useful explosives share one thing: stability. A clear
> advantage of trinitrotoluene, or TNT - whose punch is used as a yardstick for all
> other explosives - is that it remains safe and solid until detonated. So why

> would anyone want to make a highly unstable explosive? One that will release its
> energy on the slightest provocation?
> Because they are chemists, and they like explosions, is the popular
> answer. Because they are chemists, and they like a technical challenge, is what
> those doing the work say. How convincing is that?
> Explosives release energy stored in chemical bonds in a runaway process
> that often turns solids into gases, expands material massively and creates heat.
> In big explosions, pressure waves radiate out from the origin, keeping the
> reaction going throughout the material. When detonated, TNT decomposes
> violently into a gas, some soot, and a boom. Many explosive compounds are less
> stable than TNT - some are so temperamental or hard to make that they will

> probably never be used in practice.
> Consider this warning for tetraazidomethane, a particularly wild member of
> the group of compounds known as polyazides, which have a general reputation
> for removing student eyebrows. "Tetraazidomethane is extremely dangerous as a
> pure substance. It can explode at any time - without a recognizable cause."

> Klaus Banert at the Chemnitz University of Technology in Germany was
> the first to synthesize this compound. He says that less than a drop of it
> destroyed the glass trap and the Dewar flask of the cooling bath they used to
> isolate it (K. Banert et al. Angew. Chem. Int. Edn 46, 1168-1171; 2007).

> "Although we had expected explosive properties of tetraazidomethane, we were
> deeply impressed by its destructive force," he says.
> His team had to work behind a safety shield and wear gloves, face shields
> and ear protectors. Banert says that when it was all over, he was relieved. The
> lab had taken all reasonable safety precautions but he had still been worried
> while the experiment was underway.
> So why did they do it? Was it the adrenaline? The childhood lure of
> explosions? Banert says that it was the pure challenge of the synthesis. "I
> received my first chemistry set at the age of 11 and continued very intensively for
> several years performing chemical experiments at home. I was also interested in
> explosives at that time," he says. "But explosions were only of secondary
> importance."
> For tetraazidomethane, Banert says that it was an ambitious target to fill
> this gap in the family of high-energy density materials. "The structure of
> tetraazidomethane had already been calculated, and it was predicted that the
> compound theoretically should be able to exist."
> Derek Lowe, a medicinal chemist and author of the popular chemistry blog
> 'In the Pipeline' runs an occasional item on 'Things I Won't Work With'. Among
> them are the polyazides. But he can see the appeal of making highly explosive
> compounds. "These molecules do not want to exist. They are never going to form
> naturally or spontaneously. These things are teetering right on the edge of not
> being feasible, and you can be the first to make it."
> To strengthen the case that it is the synthesis, not the destruction, that
> excites such minds, consider the work of Philip Eaton at the University of
> Chicago, Illinois. In the 1960s, Eaton made cubane - a cube with a carbon at

> each corner. Then, at the suggestion of an army general, he went on to
> synthesize a highly explosive compound called octanitrocubane (M.-X. Zhang, P.
> E. Eaton & R. Gilardi. Angew. Chem. Int. Edn 39, 401-404; 2000).

> Octanitrocubane has the same pattern, but with nitrogen dioxide bound to each
> corner carbon atom. "The problem," says Eaton, "was how the devil to make it."
> The tricky synthesis has, he explains, many, many steps. "In the course of the
> whole thing we made less than a gram." Eaton can't estimate how much more
> explosive it is than TNT, except to say "a lot".
> The idea was that the density of the structure would pack a high explosive
> power into a small volume - something that was important to the military when

> bulky guidance-system computers were hogging too much space in missiles. But
> octanitrocubane is just too hard to make for it to have any role in the military for
> the foreseeable future. Eaton is just pleased he figured out how to synthesize it.
> And he did it, he repeats, for the pure love of the challenge. "The explosiveness
> has no allure for me at all. I was not the kind of kid who made explosives." The
> proof? He never set off so much as a milligram of the stuff.
> "There may be some folks who like that sort of thing, but they don't tend to
> last very long," agrees Lowe. "Chemists have a reputation have a reputation for being closet
> pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."
>
> --
> donald j haarmann
> -------------------------------
> Men offer love in hope of getting
> sex; women offer sex in hope of
> getting love; both are cheated.
> Richard J Heedham

This story is from fucking NATURE? Give me a break from self serving
journalism. If anything it is NATURE that is Teetering on the edge.
Only fucking idiots read NATURE. I propose a total boycott of NATURE.

Frank

unread,
May 17, 2007, 6:33:55 PM5/17/07
to
I think it's a neat article. Lot of people repeating stuff I
published as a grad student have ended up in hospital emergency wards
- two were lab partners who would not follow the safety information I
gave them ;)
Frank

hanson

unread,
May 17, 2007, 7:31:45 PM5/17/07
to
ahaha... ahahaha.. AHAHAHA... did you feel more 86ed by your own
nature, by NATURE or by Donald when you, <d....@hotmail.com> w/i
news:1179434146.1...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> "donald haarmann" <donald-haarm...@worldnet.att.net> cited:
>
"Chemists have a reputation for being closet pyromaniacs, but the

real crazies blow themselves up."
>
Nature 447, 141 (10 May 2007) | doi:10.1038/447141a;
Published online 9 May 2007: Chemistry: Teetering on the edge.
Emma Marris1 is a reporter for Nature based in Washington DC.

>
Why do chemists make compounds that could blow up in their faces?
Emma Marris finds out from a safe distance.

Explosives come in many varieties, from military munitions to rapidly
inflating airbags. But useful explosives share one thing: stability. A clear
advantage of trinitrotoluene, or TNT - whose punch is used as a yardstick
for all other explosives - is that it remains safe and solid until
detonated. So why would anyone want to make a highly unstable
explosive? One that will release its energy on the slightest provocation?
Because they are chemists, and they like explosions, is the popular
answer. Because they are chemists, and they like a technical challenge,
is what those doing the work say. How convincing is that?
Explosives release energy stored in chemical bonds in a runaway
process that often turns solids into gases, expands material massively
and creates heat.
In big explosions, pressure waves radiate out from the origin, keeping
the reaction going throughout the material. When detonated, TNT
decomposes violently into a gas, some soot, and a boom.
Many explosive compounds are less stable than TNT - some are so
temperamental or hard to make that they will probably never be used in
practice.
Consider this warning for tetraazidomethane, a particularly wild
member of the group of compounds known as polyazides, which have
a general reputation for removing student eyebrows.
"Tetraazidomethane, [(N3)2>C<(N3)2], is extremely dangerous as a

pure substance. It can explode at any time - without a recognizable cause."
Klaus Banert at the Chemnitz University of Technology in Germany was
the first to synthesize this compound. He says that less than a drop of it
destroyed the glass trap and the Dewar flask of the cooling bath they used
to isolate it (K. Banert et al. Angew. Chem. Int. Edn 46, 1168-1171; 2007).
"Although we had expected explosive properties of tetraazidomethane,
we were deeply impressed by its destructive force," he says.
His team had to work behind a safety shield and wear gloves, face
shields nd ear protectors. Banert says that when it was all over, he was

relieved. The lab had taken all reasonable safety precautions but he had
still been worried while the experiment was underway.
So why did they do it? Was it the adrenaline? The childhood lure of
explosions? Banert says that it was the pure challenge of the synthesis. "I
received my first chemistry set at the age of 11 and continued very
intensively for several years performing chemical experiments at home.
I was also interested in explosives at that time," he says. "But explosions
were only of secondary importance."
For tetraazidomethane, Banert says that it was an ambitious target to
fill this gap in the family of high-energy density materials. "The structure
of tetraazidomethane had already been calculated, and it was predicted
that the compound theoretically should be able to exist."
Derek Lowe, a medicinal chemist and author of the popular chemistry
blog 'In the Pipeline' runs an occasional item on 'Things I Won't Work
With'. Among them are the polyazides. But he can see the appeal of
making highly explosive compounds. "These molecules do not want to
exist. They are [1] never going to form naturally or spontaneously. [1]
donald j haarmann
-------------------------------
Men offer love in hope of getting sex; women offer sex in hope of
getting love; both are cheated. --- Richard J Heedham
>
>
[The 86er]

> This story is from fucking NATURE? Give me a break from self serving
> journalism. If anything it is NATURE that is Teetering on the edge.
> Only fucking idiots read NATURE. I propose a total boycott of NATURE.
>
>
[hanson to 86er]
ahahaha... But, 86ed-one, since YOU read AND commented on it
YOU then must THE "fucking idiot" ... or do you have such a flaming
hatred on that rag because NATURE didn't print your letter that you
sent them in/for the "readers' response" section?....
But thanks for the laughs.... I like irate people!.. They are funny!
ahahaha... ahahahahanson
>
[hanson to Don]
Good post, Donald, but I do wonder too what the purpose & agenda of
that "Emma Marris1" is. It appears to me a typical stab at technology
by enviro-green shits, like her, to denigrate anything & everything that
hard working and dedicated people in Chemistry have invented and
created for her to live off and depend on... --- Moves by the far Left!
Signs of the times, Donald... More religion and loss of Freedom is
creeping up, slowly but surely... in many ways & guises. Bad scene!
>
AFA [1] "polyazides never going to form naturally". IIRC there are
reports that (N3)- spectral lines have been detected in interstellar
space.
Another interesting & unusual explosive is for instance the Perchlorate
of 2,4 dinitro diazonium aniline : [2,4-(NO2)2-Ph-N=N+ ClO4-]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sci.physics.acoustics/msg/4d57f65b4fc1eb76
which was allegedly investigated for/as a "sonic boom" weapon.
Take care, Don,
hanson


number6

unread,
May 19, 2007, 3:18:09 PM5/19/07
to
On May 17, 4:01 pm, "donald haarmann" <donald-

haarm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> being closet pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."
>
> Why do chemists make compounds that could blow up in their faces?

I became a chemist because I loved finding out how to make things burn
and what blows up ... Nothing ever blew up in my face though ... they
blew up where and when I wanted ...
It's like saying why do carpenters work with tools that can cut their
arms off ... or why do philosophers work with ideas and concepts that
can drive them insane ... or why do newsgroup posters work with words
and phrases that can get them murdered or at best called a complete
asshole ...

donald haarmann

unread,
May 19, 2007, 5:11:46 PM5/19/07
to
"number6" <snum...@aol.com>

| On May 17, 4:01 pm, "donald haarmann" <donald-
| haarm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
| > being closet pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."
| >
| > Why do chemists make compounds that could blow up in their faces?
|
| I became a chemist because I loved finding out how to make things burn
| and what blows up ... Nothing ever blew up in my face though ... they
| blew up where and when I wanted ...

[snip]

---------
My copy of the 6th ed (1999) of "Bretherick's - Handbook of Reactive Chemical
Hazards", is 2 103 pages long , 4 929 references to reactions by element, so you
have a lot of company! (You can find my name of page 1376.)

By-da I though the article humorous and portraying chemisty in a positive manner.

donald j haarmann
---------------------------
Azomide -- The New Sodium Salt -- The Most Highly Explosive Substance Known
Scientific American Supplement, No. 836 January 9, 1892


Azoimide is a clear, colorless, mobile liquid, which boils without decomposition at 37o. It
is endowed with the same intolerable odor as the solution. Its most characteristic
property, however, is its frightful explodes in a most erratic manner-- sometimes
without, the least apparent provocation at the ordinary temperature. Its distillation is an
operation attended by great danger. Prof. Curtius and his assistant have succeeded, as
above described, in isolating it and determining its boiling point several times; but
upon other occasions, under apparently the same conditions, the experiment has
ended with a disastrous explosion. When suddenly heated or touched with a hot body,
it always explodes. The explosion is accompanied by an intensely vivid blue flame. The
damage wrought by the explosion of very minute quantities is most surprising. The
thousandth part of a gramme, placed upon an iron plate and touched by a hot glass
rod, is sufficient to produce a loud detonation, and considerably distort the iron plate.
The twentieth part of a gramme was found sufficient to completely pulverize a Hofmann
"density" apparatus, when an attempt was made to determine it vapor density in the
Torricellian vacuum at the ordinary temperature. Upon another occasion, seven-tenths
of a gramme, contained in a closed glass tube, upon removal from the freezing
mixture in which it had been immersed exploded with such an immense force as to
shatter every piece of glass apparatus in the laboratory. It was upon this occasion that
Prof. Curtius's assistant [Dr. Radenhausen] was so seriously injured as to cause the
temporary abandonment of the work. The aqueous solution is almost as explosive as
the anhydrous liquid, the explosion of two cubic centimeters of a 27 per cent. solution
upon one occasion shattering the glass tube into dust so fine that Prof. Curtius, who
was attempting to seal it, escaped uninjured."


Bill Penrose

unread,
May 19, 2007, 8:02:54 PM5/19/07
to
On May 17, 1:01 pm, "donald haarmann" <donald-

haarm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> "Chemists have a reputation have a reputation for being closet
> pyromaniacs, but the real crazies blow themselves up."

I did my time as a teenager, making guncotton and firing off various
mixtures of zinc, sulfur, aluminum powder, and potassium chlorate. The
closer I got to being a professional chemist, the less impressed I was
by these things.

It's one thing to mix sulfuric acid and sugar to make the big column
of carbon, but you quickly learn that you have to clean up the
corrosive, filthy mess afterward. Likewise, nitrogen triiodide is only
funny the first 500 times.

There was a desk in grad school with a peculiar shadow etching into
the surface, caused by an exploding dish of lead azide. The shadow was
life by the hand of the student who held the dish at the time. The
hand was blown to rags in the process. The damage was left in place as
an object lesson to future generations of chemists.

Dangerous Bill


Bob M

unread,
May 20, 2007, 2:54:36 PM5/20/07
to
If you were given a large leggo set why would you not want to play
with it.
Synthetic Chem is simply the best leggo set around.
Why would older children not want to play with it.

Bob M


donald haarmann

unread,
May 20, 2007, 4:01:18 PM5/20/07
to
<d....@hotmail.com

|
| This story is from fucking NATURE? Give me a break from self serving
| journalism. If anything it is NATURE that is Teetering on the edge.
| Only fucking idiots read NATURE. I propose a total boycott of NATURE.
|


-----------
No. What we need to boycott is "dangling bonds". Dangling bonds gimeabreak! In my
day we didn't let our bond dangle. We made good strong covalent ones, well ok sometimes
a wimpy ionic ones, but our bonds never-ever dangled!

---------------------------------
Science 4 May 2007:
Vol. 316. no. 5825, pp. 732 - 735
DOI: 10.1126/science.1140484

Reports
Synthesis of Tetrahexahedral Platinum Nanocrystals with High-Index Facets and High Electro-Oxidation Activity
Na Tian,1 Zhi-You Zhou,1 Shi-Gang Sun,1* Yong Ding,2 Zhong Lin Wang2*

The shapes of noble metal nanocrystals (NCs) are usually defined by polyhedra that are enclosed
by {111} and {100} facets, such as cubes, tetrahedra, and octahedra. Platinum NCs of unusual
tetrahexahedral (THH) shape were prepared at high yield by an electrochemical treatment of Pt
nanospheres supported on glassy carbon by a square-wave potential. The single-crystal THH NC
is enclosed by 24 high-index facets such as {730}, {210}, and/or {520} surfaces that have a large
density of atomic steps and DANGLING bonds. These high-energy surfaces are stable thermally
(to 800°C) and chemically and exhibit much enhanced (up to 400%) catalytic activity for equivalent
Pt surface areas for electro-oxidation of small organic fuels such as formic acid and ethanol.


donald j haarmann
-------------------------------
All sciences start with "stamp-collecting" - the patient accumulation
of multicoloured facts which are then stuck into an album until a pattern
emerges. This pattern is known as theory, and is used to predict other
patterns of facts, which may or may not turn out to be correct. Those
new patterns which do emerge are then used to create yet more
theory. And so the subject progresses.
A secret fear of many scientists, though, is that having started with
stamp-collecting, their subject will also end with it - that facts will
accumulate endlessly with out any new theory becoming apparent. And it
is a fear of chemists, in particular, that this has already happened - to
chemistry, Having explained in enormous detail over the last two
centuries which chemical elements exist and how they react together
to form molecules, all that has seemed to be left to chemists is to
make more and more of those molecules without advancing the
subjects theory.

The Economists 30xi96


Uncle Al

unread,
May 20, 2007, 6:39:01 PM5/20/07
to

Absolutely! Organic and especially pharma is so boringly planar. Do
a little 3-D boogie with benzyne on anthracene to obtain trypticene.
But why stop there? Benzyne on 9,9'-bianthracene gives you a fine
trypticene dimer that is only happy when exactly centered in its
energy well,

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/bitrypt.png

Leggo my bitrypticene. Benzyne on 10,10'-dibromo-9,9'-bianthracene
gives the alpha-omega bridgehead dibromide. Cook it up with sodium
metal
emulsion and get... wait for it... the Wurtz possible rigid rod
polymer.

Priceless. Think outside the toroid. March to the sound of a
different zither.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

Autymn D. C.

unread,
May 21, 2007, 8:07:45 AM5/21/07
to
On May 20, 3:39 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
> Bob M wrote:
> > If you were given a large leggo set why would you not want to play
> > with it.
> > Synthetic Chem is simply the best leggo set around.
> > Why would older children not want to play with it.
>
> Absolutely! Organic and especially pharma is so boringly planar. Do
> a little 3-D boogie with benzyne on anthracene to obtain trypticene.
> But why stop there? Benzyne on 9,9'-bianthracene gives you a fine
> trypticene dimer that is only happy when exactly centered in its
> energy well,

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryne
"The name benzyne (1) C6H4 for the simplest aryne is open for
criticism because it implies an alkyne bond which is not the case, a
better name is dehydrobenzene."

Dumbass, you must think there's such a thing as benzoic acid.

-Aut

Uncle Al

unread,
May 21, 2007, 11:19:59 AM5/21/07
to

Hey schmuck - when you (OK, not you - a lame one-eyed scrofulous chimp
with better lab skills priority-admitted under Diversity Guidelines as
a Tolerated Minority) thermolyze benzenediazonium 2-carboxylate, what
is the intermediate product?

And what is the end product, idiot?

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

unread,
May 22, 2007, 7:33:00 PM5/22/07
to

Yes - never make more than a kilo at any one time.
And get the lab technician to do it - that's what they are there for.

--
Dirk

http://www.onetribe.me.uk - The UK's only occult talk show
Presented by Dirk Bruere and Marc Power

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

unread,
May 22, 2007, 7:38:00 PM5/22/07
to
Uncle Al wrote:
> Bob M wrote:
>> If you were given a large leggo set why would you not want to play
>> with it.
>> Synthetic Chem is simply the best leggo set around.
>> Why would older children not want to play with it.
>
> Absolutely! Organic and especially pharma is so boringly planar. Do

The fun bit with the latter is tasting it (whether intensionally or not)
The all time exemplar has to be Albert Hofmann

Bill Penrose

unread,
May 23, 2007, 12:33:23 AM5/23/07
to
On May 19, 1:11 pm, "donald haarmann" <donald-
haarm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> ....exploded with such an immense force as to

> shatter every piece of glass apparatus in the laboratory. It was upon this occasion that
> Prof. Curtius's assistant [Dr. Radenhausen] was so seriously injured as to cause the
> temporary abandonment of the work.

*Temporary* abandonment of the work?

What would it take to make him work on something less risky, like
nerve gases?

Dangerous Bill


Autymn D. C.

unread,
May 23, 2007, 3:23:55 AM5/23/07
to
On May 21, 8:19 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:

> "Autymn D. C." wrote:
> >http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryne
> > "The name benzyne (1) C6H4 for the simplest aryne is open for
> > criticism because it implies an alkyne bond which is not the case, a
> > better name is dehydrobenzene."
>
> > Dumbass, you must think there's such a thing as benzoic acid.
>
> Hey schmuck - when you (OK, not you - a lame one-eyed scrofulous chimp
> with better lab skills priority-admitted under Diversity Guidelines as
> a Tolerated Minority) thermolyze benzenediazonium 2-carboxylate, what
> is the intermediate product?

what?

> And what is the end product, idiot?

toluoic acid and nitrogen

-Aut

number6

unread,
May 23, 2007, 9:10:07 AM5/23/07
to


Do you know how easy it is to shatter laboratory glass apparatus ???
But even so ... nerve gases would be hard pressed to do so ...


donald haarmann

unread,
May 23, 2007, 12:09:19 PM5/23/07
to
"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com>

|
| Yes - never make more than a kilo at any one time.
| And get the lab technician to do it - that's what they are there for.
|


------
Lab tech? NO. Use of of the serfs (Grad. Student).

--
donald j haarmann
---------------------------
"It is essential that persons having explosive
substances under their charge should never
lose sight of the conviction that, preventive
measures should always be prescribed
on the hypothesis of an explosion."


number6

unread,
May 23, 2007, 3:01:47 PM5/23/07
to
On May 23, 12:09 pm, "donald haarmann" <donald-
haarm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> "Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>

>
> |
> | Yes - never make more than a kilo at any one time.
> | And get the lab technician to do it - that's what they are there for.
> |
>
> ------
> Lab tech? NO. Use of of the serfs (Grad. Student).
>

In putting a plant into a third world country, the engineer was
discussing ways to do a certain action ... One was to automate it ...
the second was to use oxen ... the third was to use people ... those
in charge opted for using people ... for these reasons ...
Equipment has a low operating cost but costs too much capital
investment ... oxen are lower capital but have higher operating
expenses as we are required to provide them with food and shelter ...
but people cost us neither ...
sort of the difference between a lab tech and a grad student ...


donald haarmann

unread,
May 24, 2007, 12:12:40 PM5/24/07
to
"number6" <snum...@aol.com


|
| In putting a plant into a third world country, the engineer was
| discussing ways to do a certain action ... One was to automate it ...
| the second was to use oxen ... the third was to use people ... those
| in charge opted for using people ... for these reasons ...
| Equipment has a low operating cost but costs too much capital
| investment ... oxen are lower capital but have higher operating
| expenses as we are required to provide them with food and shelter ...
| but people cost us neither ...
| sort of the difference between a lab tech and a grad student ...
|

--------------
PATR2700
The Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Devices.

DYNAMITE AND SUBSTITUTES

"Before inventing his Dynamite in 1863, Alfred B. Nobel (1833-1896) proposed a rather
safe method of transporting liquid NG.

"He mixed it with 15-20 parts of anhydrous methyl alcohol and transported the resulting
nonexplosive mixture in tanks to places of work. There NG was precipitated by adding
water and the supernatant dilute methanol removed by decantation. As this method
was time-consuming and rather wasteful (because it did not pay to recover methanol), it
was seldom used in the USA. Here, where everything is done in a hurry and as cheaply
as possible, it was preferred to transport NG in the liquid form, although it was more
dangerous. Many accidents occurred and many lives were lost in connection with NG
and as long as most of the workmen were foreigners, especially Chinese, the
industrialists, who care only for profits, did not introduce any safety regulations until
they were forced by the Government after establishing in 1910 the Bureau of Mines at
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania."


--------------
Giant Plant at Fleming Point (1892).

As the Fleming Point plant grew in size, the congestion became worse. The tract
was never really large enough to hold both the dynamite and the chemical plant,
and whenever there was an accident with the dynamite the acid plant of
Judson & Sheppard suffered and the Giant company had to pay the bill.
Furthermore, the city of Berkeley was fast growing into the area that would be
affected by major explosions and the large city of Oakland was only six
miles away. The stage was therefore set for another disaster [following the 1869,
1879 and 1883 explosions] and this occurred on Saturday, July 9, 1892.

In this case the loss of life was not so great. Three white men and two Chinese
were killed outright and a boy was blown through the roof of a building and
was not expected to live. Another man was hurled into the bay but was able to
swim out. The quantity of explosives involved, however, was so great that the
plant was literally blown off the map and great damage was done to Judson &
Sheppard's acid factory adjoining and to many outside structures.

Explosions then followed in the dynamite mixing house, the Judson mixing
house, the two Quinan machine packing houses and the box packing house.
About five minutes after the last of these six explosions, two of the magazines
(which were burning) exploded with a crash which destroyed the major part
of the remainder of the plant. The combined office and laboratory was set on fire
by the concussion which mixed up the acids, caps, dynamite and other
inflammables in the laboratory. The Judson drying house also caught fire, and
this in turn fired No. 1 and No. 2 warehouses.

H. Van Prooyen had a miraculous escape. He ran out of the packing house when
the first explosion occurred. The second caught him before he had been
able to get far from the building and threw him into the pit under the scales.
Almost at once the building collapsed, part of the wreckage falling over the pit
and making a roof over his head. The following explosions shook the earth and
hurled great quantities of wreckage about, but be remained unharmed.

The loss at the plant was estimated at $200,000, involving, according to different
accounts, from 400,000 to 1,000,000 pounds of dynamite. One magazine
containing "300 tons of blasting powder" which was 200 yards away from the
others, was unharmed. Judson & Sheppard's San Francisco Chemical Works,
which were close to the plant, were almost completely destroyed, with an
estimated loss of $150,000. Consider able damage was done in Berkeley and
Oakland, and even in San Francisco where plate glass and other windows were
broken. The shock was even said to have been felt at Sacramento, eighty miles
away. Residents of the adjacent cities of Berkeley and Oakland were given such
a fright that work was suspended in many places and crowds flocked to Fleming
Point to view the scene of the disaster. Before the day was over, 20,000 people
had visited the powder plant and Councilman George Schmidt, the City Marshall,
swore in a hundred citizens as deputies to keep them back.

Gelder & Schlatter - History of the Explosives Industry in America
Institute of Makers of Explosives 1927

--
donald j haarmann
---------------------------------
The explosion removed the windows,
the door and most of the chimney.

It was the sort of thing you expected in
the Street of Alchemists. The neighbours
preferred explosions, which were at least
identifiable and soon over. They were better
than the smells, which crept up on you.
Terry Pratchett


donald haarmann

unread,
May 24, 2007, 12:40:42 PM5/24/07
to
"Bill Penrose" <pen...@iit.edu


--------------
Nitrogen chloride is considered to be one of the most dangerous bodies to
handle, owing to the facility with which it explodes, by shock, friction, or contact
with various bodies.
M. Berthelot 1892

Nitrogen trichloride was discovered by my good friend, physician and professor
of physics at the École Polytechnique Pierre Louis Dulong. I first meet him at
Berthollet's home at Arcueil just south of Paris, where Berthollet had settled
following his return from Napoleon's abortive Egyptian campaign. All the greats
meet their; Berthollet's neighbour Laplace, Arago, Bérand, Biot, Amédée
Berthollet (Claude's son), Chaptal, Collet-Desostils, de Candolle, Gay-Lussac,
Humboldt, Malus, Poisson and Thernard. Napoleon showed his approval of our
meetings by allowing the use of the title "Société d'Arcueil" for our gatherings.
Pierre D. first published notice of his discovery in Schweigger's J. Chem. Pharm.
8, 32 (1812). Shortly there after he lost and eye and three fingers when a sample
exploded in his laboratory!! Indeed, our mutual friend Humphry Davy was also
severely injured although happily not maimed by an unexpected explosion of a
small quantity of Pierre's "une nouvelle substance detonnante". [ Gay-Lussac and
Thernard latter suffered from inhaling hydrogen fluoride fumes.]
"The preparation and handling of this compound requires the greatest care.
Every vessel employed must be washed by alkali-lye in order to free it from
grease; even grease from the fingers may cause an explosion. The substance
[yellow oily liquid] is very liable to spontaneous explosion, and thick gloves, and a
face shield are indispensable." It is also possible to cause it to explode by
exposure to strong sun light or the light of a magnesium flame!"


--------------
HISTORICAL PAPERS ON MODERN EXPLOSIVES
George W. MacDonald, M.Sc. (Melb.)
(Head Of Research, Messrs Curtis's & Harvey, Ltd.
Former 1851 Exhibition Scholar, The University Of Melbourne.)
With An Introduction By Sir Andrew Noble, Bart., K.C.B., F.R.S.
Whittaker & Co., 2 White Hart Street, Paternoster Square. London, E.C.
And 64-66 Fifth Avenue, New York. 1912

CHAPTER I

HOWARD'S DISCOVERY OF FULMINATE OF MERCURY (1800)

.......... He, therefore,
for obvious reasons, poured sulphuric acid upon the dry crystalline mass. A violent
effervescence ensued, and, to his great astonishment, an explosion took place. The
singularity of this explosion induced him to repeat the process several times, and,
finding that he always obtained the same kind of powder, he prepared a considerable
quantity of it......... He once poured six drams of concentrated sulphuric acid on fifty grains of
fulminate. An explosion took place, almost at the instant of contact. He states that lie
was wounded severely and most of his apparatus was destroyed, and then adds, "I
must confess I feel more disposed to prosecute other chemical subjects.........
........ A gunpowder proof barrel holding eleven grains of fine gunpowder was filled with
fulminate, and fired with a flint and steel. The report was sharp but not loud. The person
who held the proof barrel in his hand felt no recoil, but the explosion laid open the upper
part of the barrel nearly from touch-hole to muzzle, and struck off the hand of the re-
gister. .........


-----------
Ascanio Sobrero
"Some New Fulminating Products Obtained by the Action of Nitric Acid on some
Vegetable Organic Substances."
Torino. Mem. Acad. (1847), 195-203.
In: GW McDonald "Historical Papers on Modern Explosives." Whittaker & Co. 1912.

" On one occasion a small quantify of an ethereal solution of nitroglycerin
as allowed to evaporate in a glass dish. The residue of nitroglycerin was
certainly not more than 2 or 3 centigrams. On heating the dish over a spirit
lamp a most violent explopsion resulted, and the dish was broken to atoms.
On another occasion a drop contained in a test tube was being heated when
it detonated with great violence, and pieces of glass cut my face and hands
severely and also injured others standing some distance away in the room."


-----------
"In 1836, Bunsen succeeded Friedrich Wöhler at Kassel. After teaching there for two
years, he accepted a position at the University of Marburg, where he studied cacodyl
derivatives. Although Bunsen's work brought him quick and wide acclaim, he almost killed
himself from arsenic poisoning. It also cost him the sight of one eye, when an explosion
propelled a glass sliver into his eye. ...."

Wikipedia

By-da [K] [C] acodyl comes from the Greek "kakka" - smells worse than a used women.


-------------
The Riddle of the Rhine:
Chemical Strategy in Peace and War
by Victor LeFebure
The Chemical Foundation, Inc. New York 1923

Research.--We have obtained an insight into the German research preparations, which
leaves no doubt as to their intention. There is evidence that the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute
and the physico-chemical institute near by were employed for this purpose as early as
August, 1914. Reliable authority exists for the statement that soon after this date they
were working with cacodyl oxide and phosgene, both well known before the war
for their very poisonous nature, for use, it was believed, in hand grenades. Our
quotations are from a statement by a neutral then working at the Institute. "We could
hear the tests that Professor Haber was carrying out at the back of the Institute, with
the military authorities, who in their steel-grey cars came to Haber's Institute every
morning." "The work was pushed day and night, and many times I saw activity in the
building at eleven o'clock in the evening. It was common knowledge that Haber was
pushing these men as hard as he could." [Otto] Sachur was Professor Haber's assistant.
"One morning there was a violent explosion in the room in which most of this war work
was carried out. The room was instantly filled with dense clouds of arsenic oxide."
"The janitors began to clear the room by a hose and discovered Professor Sachur." He
was very badly hurt and died soon after. "After that accident I believe the work on
cacodyl oxide and phosgene was suspended and I believe that work was carried
out on chlorine or chlorine compounds." "There were seven or eight men working in the
Institute on these problems, but we heard nothing more until Haber went to the Battle
of Ypres." Rumours to this effect circulated in 1915."

[The next day Haber's wife who some believe Prof. Sachur was laying pipe to - committed
suicide.]


--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------------
Science of the ages, the highest arts of man,
Degraded and prostituted, that
Might should take the van,
Whilst Empire, Justice, Freedom slumbered.
Then chemists, student, artisan answered
Duty's call;
Our arms, our arts, our poison fumes.
Gained Liberty for all.
Anon

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