ROCS - a Robust Complementary Community Currency System, way of practical implementation.
Alex Kotov
ROCS Time Bank system for over-regional use. Originally described in
"The Future of Money" by Bernard Lietaer, as "ROCS combines the most
robust features of the various complementary currency systems in use
today"
ROCS: www.transaction.net/money/rocs - main idea of ROCS to invent
time-based currency capable for measuring jobs of different
difficulties.
Special "effort" was made to solve over-regional problem for ROCS:
Hour of same kind of labor cost differently from country to country.
Also it was prepared theoretical base with a use of Relativistic Time
Dilation.
Mutual credit will be done by Ripple payment routing. http://ripple-project.org
CHE-ROCS developed as a part ethic standard of mutual relations system
- "Eka-People". Basic concept: win-win-third parties no loose.
The first project which will use CHE-ROCS - "Zero Exchange" - a social
network that enables people to achieve their goals through a mutually
beneficial cooperation. http://zeroexchange.sourceforge.net/en/book.html
Description of "Eka-People"/CHE-ROCS: http://zeroexchange.sourceforge.net/en/ekapeople/EkaPeople.html
Jorge Timón
>
>
> On 23 дек, 00:20, Jorge Timón <timon.elvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Now that I'm rereading the ROCS web (I'm sure I did it before) I see
>> that demurrage with mutual credit may make a lot of sense in some
>> cases. I still don't like demurrage on the side of the debtor, but -
>> on the side of the creditor - it can be very useful for fund rising
>> purposes. Also with a LETS (I include time dollars here and assume
>> exchanges rates are negotiable) you may really have problems with
>> hoarding. Not liquidity but solvency problems and the LETS managers
>> are co-issuers of all the credits.
>> You could have a LETS node representing say an association, connect it
>> with the members and apply demurrage on the positive balances with it
>> to finance the activities of the group.
>> The LETS gives them liquidity among members while not restricting the
>> external connections with other parties.
>> Maybe even two different groups can get to an agreement to connect
>> their LETS, but it's not mandatory for the two communities to trade.
>> They can use the connections of individuals from one side to another.
>>
>
> Great!, You catch the same idea what we are found very handy in CHE-
> ROCS.
> http://groups.google.com/group/rippleusers/browse_thread/thread/1c662ee5f4aefa5a
> These LETS-nodes could be set up without central authority based on
> common interests of group:village, coop, club, church. They will make
> additional liquidity to the group and give some financial support to
> organization. Of course User could belong to several LETS-nodes. Also
> LETS-node will collect business reputation of users and adjust credit
> line accordingly.
> I also find Demurrage from negative accounts as not best solution.
> That's why we decide to charge demurrage only on occasion. (e.g. last
> day of month). and from current balance, (not from volume money usage
> through the month). It will make soft motivation against hoarding. So,
> user which "understand" idea or the rule will be not charged by
> demurrage tax at all. We motivate users to harmonize their fanatical
> activity with others, "same" as traffic on cross roads.
>
> This kind of Demurrage as far as i understand works not the same as
> negative interest in Ripple....
>
> "Not liquidity but solvency problems" - could you put some details on
> this
>
> In CHE-ROCS we going to use non-inflating currency, rates to other
> currencies anyway will be floating, due to nature of last ones.
The idea seems interesting to me but I'm not sure I've understood it.
From what I've read from zero exchange, it's seems oriented to barter.
Am I right?
What's the relationship between zero exchange, CHE-ROCS, ROCS and Ripple?
It will be a set of LETS communities with demurrage (well, ROCS I
guess) connected between them with ripple without interest. Am I
right?
Can participants from different LETS trust directly each other with
ripple connections without interest nor demurrage?
--
Jorge Timón
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Alex Kotov
Zero Exchange - in general, is barter network where people could make
common project, "put in" their resources and get what they need, or
sell something measuring value of their resources in one standard (CHE
- time based currency of ROCS type), when circuit of barter could not
be completed 100%, - Ripple credit mechanic or regular cash will solve
problem.
ZE will also act as LETS-node providing credit lines to users
according their reputation.
users could create their LETS-nodes based on their interest: village,
club, church, community.
"Can participants from different LETS trust directly each other with
connection as per Ripple - no limitations
In ROCS demurrage is used as function for definite purpose: increase
liquidity, prevent hoarding.
This will be done by Demurrage or other means, dispense from practical
possibility.
If anybody has idea how to arrange Demurrage in Ripple - will be very
appreciated.
Main difference CHE-ROCS from ROCS - support over-regional interaction
by one currency, still keeping regions protected with special leakage
protection technique.
Alex
Jorge Timón
ROCS/ripple when not.
Maybe you should keep the demurrage for intra-group transactions and
leave it out for ripple/inter-groups transactions. In fact, what you
want to discourage between groups are large negative balances for long
periods of time rather than large positive ones.
All this (the ROCS and ripple between ROCS) can be implemented with Ripple.
For the inter-group demurrage:
The participants give credit with negative interest to the group node.
The group node gives credit to the participants at zero interest. This
way positive balances suffer demurrage but negative balances don't
disappear over time.
2012/1/3, Alex Kotov <aleksand...@gmail.com>:
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Alex Kotov
But still do not understand clearly how interest works in Ripple,
especially in routing.
A-B-C,
C gave credit line to B with interest, others w/o.
A buying something from C for 10.
A(-10)-(10)B(-10)-(10)C
will be interest charged only from B? :
A(-10)-(10)B(-9)-(11)C - what looks a bit not fair to B
or it will pass to A, notwithstanding that his personal credit line w/
o interest.
A(-9)-(10)B(-10)-(11)C
Jorge Timón
> this interest looks interesting )
>
> But still do not understand clearly how interest works in Ripple,
> especially in routing.
>
> A-B-C,
> C gave credit line to B with interest, others w/o.
> A buying something from C for 10.
> A(-10)-(10)B(-10)-(10)C
>
> will be interest charged only from B? :
Yes. This is what would happen. Because C was the only who freely
accepted to pay interest on his credit account with C. Certainly looks
unfair for B.
The system could be modified so that B could define rules about when
to use what lines of credit. This way he could loan from C only when
he at the same time lends at an equal or greater interest, only when
he's the payer of the ripple transaction, etc. But I suspect that
people simply will end up not accepting credit at interest at all.
It's like giving away coupons that grow (and remember, exponentially).
On the other side, I don't think many people will give credit to
others at negative interest if it's not for a good reason (like paying
community activities). It's like accepting coupons that perish as
payment and it has to be a generosity act.
Besides there's no interest in the distributed ripple protocol.
http://ripple-project.org/Main/Interest
But, for example, ripplepay could still allow interest between its
nodes but not between nodes hosted at ripplepay and nodes hosted at
villages when connected through the p2p protocol. Anyone could make
its own server (or a light client for just one person) and have the
rules it wants inside.
Another example, a ROCS community could have a network with the
following topology:
Community node -> Each participant : up to X at zero interest.
Each participant -> Community node : up to Y at -DEMURRAGE_CONSTANT interest
X and Y depend on a combination of settings by the user and various
reputation and history variables of the participant.
Would that be something close to what you want?
Then each ROCS participant could connect with villages, ripplepay,
other ROCS, LETS, individual persons, business to business networks or
whatever that can interact with the p2p network.
> or it will pass to A, notwithstanding that his personal credit line w/
> o interest.
> A(-11)-(10)B(-10)-(11)C
This would be pretty unfair for A. He never agreed on paying interest
to anyone. And B agreed but he's not paying.
The result of your example if C concedes a negative interest (demurrage) to B:
A(-10)-(10)B(-9)-(9)C - which looks a bit unfair to C and very good to B.
If everybody has it:
A(-9)-(9)B(-9)-(9)C - which looks a bit unfair to C and very good to A.
He may do something for others in exchange of what he received or just
wait until his debt disappears.
Hope this helps.
Alex Kotov
Timón, Thank you very much. Becomes more clear.
>Community node -> Each participant : up to X at zero interest.
>Each participant -> Community node : up to Y at -DEMURRAGE_CONSTANT interest
A-B-Com.node-D-E
Com.node - community node receiving credit lines with neg.interest
from adjasent nodes.
B,D -belongs to community, A,E- don't.
Transaction from B to D:
B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-10)-(10)D
after demurrage:
B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-9)-(9)D
D gets extra liquidity from Community and subsidize it a bit.
Will Ripple optimize his spending to route his transaction, at first
via Com.node (to get rid of melting vouchers first)?
Transaction from A-E:
A(-10)-(10)B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-10)-(10)D(-10)-(-10)E(10)
after demurrage:
A(-10)-(10)B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-9)-(9)D(-10)-(-10)E(10)
Now D is subsidizing Community for "nothing". And only way to limit
this, is to run separate server for Community? -Looks like not the
best solution.
Another question: How is interest/demurrage computation works?
-on daily calculation? daily transactions(of interest)? possible to
set "monthly"?
-on volume (of money used) or from current balance at certain moment?
any other settings?
-Does establishing credit line with +/- interest require any
confirmation from other party?
-Who could set up amount of demurrage?
In case of community node: Community node defining amount of
demurrage, participants define credit line (under this demurrage),
Community node calculates appropriate credit line.
At original ROCS idea demurrage charged also from negative balances,
as an interest. Do not think we will keep it. But it is good to
understand how it works in Ripple as well. What will happen if all
credit line used, interest will decrease "personal" balance below that
credit limit or interest will be routed via other nodes? Looks like it
will be the dream of Usurer.))
Alex
Jorge Timón
>
>
> Timón, Thank you very much. Becomes more clear.
>
>>Community node -> Each participant : up to X at zero interest.
>>Each participant -> Community node : up to Y at -DEMURRAGE_CONSTANT
>> interest
>
> Let's show it in "letters".
> A-B-Com.node-D-E
> Com.node - community node receiving credit lines with neg.interest
> from adjasent nodes.
> B,D -belongs to community, A,E- don't.
>
> Transaction from B to D:
> B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-10)-(10)D
> after demurrage:
> B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-9)-(9)D
> D gets extra liquidity from Community and subsidize it a bit.
> Will Ripple optimize his spending to route his transaction, at first
> via Com.node (to get rid of melting vouchers first)?
Depends on the ripple implementation. I think ripplepay is the one
that better fits with what you want because it has interests.
On ripplepay, I don't know. I don't understand what you mean by "get
rid of melting vouchers first".
> Transaction from A-E:
> A(-10)-(10)B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-10)-(10)D(-10)-(-10)E(10)
> after demurrage:
> A(-10)-(10)B(-10)-(10)Com.node(-9)-(9)D(-10)-(-10)E(10)
> Now D is subsidizing Community for "nothing". And only way to limit
> this, is to run separate server for Community? -Looks like not the
> best solution.
He's subsidizing the community to give liquidity to his friend E. But
yes, still seems problematic.
D could have 2 nodes, one connected to CN and the other to E and have
them separated (no connection between both of his nodes).
> Another question: How is interest/demurrage computation works?
> -on daily calculation? daily transactions(of interest)? possible to
> set "monthly"?
> -on volume (of money used) or from current balance at certain moment?
> any other settings?
Not sure. You'll have to ask Ryan for this one. Anyway, if you want to
run your own ripplepay server you can hack it (it's free software) to
make it act like you want.
When decentralized ripple is implemented, you can connect your
rippleROCS server with ripplepay, villages.cc, etc.
> -Does establishing credit line with +/- interest require any
> confirmation from other party?
The node who gives credit sets the demurrage rate (people giving
credit to the CN). The node receiving it has to accept it.
> -Who could set up amount of demurrage?
The community node could reject any credit that doesn't have the right
rate of demurrage. If the users offers the right rate, the CN accepts
it and gives credit back (without demurrage).
> In case of community node: Community node defining amount of
> demurrage, participants define credit line (under this demurrage),
> Community node calculates appropriate credit line.
>
> At original ROCS idea demurrage charged also from negative balances,
> as an interest. Do not think we will keep it. But it is good to
> understand how it works in Ripple as well. What will happen if all
> credit line used, interest will decrease "personal" balance below that
> credit limit or interest will be routed via other nodes? Looks like it
> will be the dream of Usurer.))
Nodes are never affected directly from other node's connections.
Not sure what happens when interest pushes a negative balance below the limit.
But I think there's two possibilities:
A) The interest is ignored
B) The limit is ignored
My intuition tells me is A, but Ryan will have to answer to this one too.
After all, interest is not part of decentralized ripple, only part of ripplepay.
Jeffrey Cliff
Alex Kotov
On 11 янв, 09:41, Jorge Timón <timon.elvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On ripplepay, I don't know. I don't understand what you mean by "get
> rid of melting vouchers first".
better to route transaction via CN first to stop loosing (melting)
money.
Thank you for replies. Very helpful.
Jorge Timón
> on ripplepay it's actually B
Thank you. The limit gets ignored to add the interest.
Do you know how the interest is charged (daily, weekly, monthly...)?
Do you know if there's priorities for the used credit lines based on
the interest of each connection?
Alex Kotov
>When you don't havve to actually issue it and only define it,
>it's actually possible to have a stable currency.
> By the way, an hour also changes from country to country. For example,
> an hour of unskilled labor is supposed to worth 10 usd, yet I earn
> less than 6 €/ hour for programming in Spain. And I'm sure my partners
> from Colombia earn less.
That is why ROCS in original could not be used over-regions, only
locally. Original TimeBanking as well, but I treat it more as a
charity then a monetary system.
In CHE-ROCS "math.shell" transforms Hours of "departure" region to
Hours of "destination" region. So participants could observe only
their local Hours and even advertisements they see already converted.
Idea is taken from "relativistic time" where in every system time runs
differently for others and the same for locals.
To make this possible, in core of Ripple every region will has its own
price of local CHE to USD(for example) and make conversion according
that rates, it will work as "Purchasing power parity". It could be
hundreds of regions and rates, but all this will be behind user
interface. CHE will have same local value for participants as glass of
water.
detailed here: http://zeroexchange.sourceforge.net/en/ekapeople/EkaPeople.html
Jeffrey Cliff
korobokbarabok
is. It is the collective projects management system designed to help
people collaborate together on self-organization basis. During the
collaboration, people exchange resources with each other. 'Resource'
conceptually can be good, service or kind of money in different
currencies (including ROCS). So ZE combines advantages of barter
systems, time banks, local currencies and complements them with the
facilities to build complex collective projects. Collective project
may be represented a simple barter (or purchasing) between two users,
as well as more complex co-operation in order to achieve a common goal
(e.g. organise the production of some good or service).
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Jorge Timón
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2012/pf/1201/gallery.community-currencies/5.html
If not, what does the CHE mean in CHE-ROCS?
2012/1/15, korobokbarabok <_del...@mail.ru>:
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Jorge Timón
Alex Kotov
On 20 янв, 14:48, Jorge Timón
(cheapest) labor on the market. Usually it is hour of watchman.
For deep theory CHE is a value of 1 hour of unqualified labor not
burdened by considerable physical, emotional, mental load.
For practical use CHE could be hourly Minimal Wage or Living Wage. I
prefer Living wage, because it more socially relies to "cost" of human
resources. Living wage as value of a bucket of human basic needs and
commodities is close to Terra(of B.Lietaer). So, it is could not
suffer from inflation and also underpayment. Salary below 1 CHE per
hour is unacceptable. Due to Living wages are very different from
region to region, it was invented special math. shell user interface
which should allow account management in local CHE, arranging foreign
CHE exchange on the fly. So, CHE is not a unit in usual way. It has
the same value locally but looks differently from outside (from
another economical systems). Same as Time in Relative Mechanic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
So, this CHE is quiet different from LETS Cascadia Hour Exchange.
It was curious to know that CHE as currency already named. Fortunately
as a pure local currency. I hope it should not make confusion.
Alex
Jorge Timón
concept but didn't know the “Common Hour Equivalent” terminology. I
guess villages.cc uses CHE too then.
About the regional exchange rates, do you have a link or something?
As said before, I find $10 too high for "Salary below 1 CHE per
hour is unacceptable". What would it be in spain euros?
2012/1/22, Alex Kotov <aleksand...@gmail.com>:
Alex Kotov
Rate of CHE, as Living Wage, depends a lot from unified statistical
information. In States it is well developed in organized by activists
groups as http://universallivingwage.org/
In Europe, for the moment, it is better to use closest Living Wage
approximation - Minimal Wage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage
http://unitedexplanations.org/english/2012/01/10/minimum-wages-in-europe-2012/
- updated
So, for Portugal, CHE(pt)=(Monthly minimal wage)/(175 hours a
month)=566/175=3,23€
for Spain, CHE(es) = 4.26€
Alex
Jorge Timón
Now imagine that Seth in US buys and sells village hours for $10 and I
do it for €4.26.
A trader arbitraging could buy hours from me and sell them to Seth for
a substantial profit.
What happens here?
Also where do those 175 come from?
40 * 4 = 160
The typical work in Spain is 40 hours a week.
2012/1/23, Alex Kotov <aleksand...@gmail.com>:
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Alex Kotov
I have to put it more defenitly:
CHE form US LETS Cascadia Hour Exchange has common with CHE-ROCS only
in name. So, fixed 10 USD CC Unit, came in Cascadia as convenient
connection to federal currency - usual LETS way.
Now we talk about CHE - as Common Hour Equivalent - local minimal
wage. It is different from state to state, so it could not be one
general CHE for US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
For Alabama: CHE=7.25$
For Alaska: CHE=7,75$
For Arizona: CHE=7.65$
If somebody wants to use CHE in multi-currency system like Ripple (in
ordinary way, as any other currency), he needs to treat them as
separate currencies: CHE(Alb), CHE(Als), CHE(Arz), CHE(es), CHE(pt).
This gives non-inflating currencies for regions bud makes some
difficulties for participants trading with other regions. To have
thousands of currencies basically of one type is a bit to much for our
small world. In CHE-ROCS we choose to "hide" this multi-currency
exchange process in protocol. So, user will handle only his local CHE
(hourly minimal wage), when he watch advertisements from other
regions, their prices should be already converted to his CHE. Then he
makes transaction, it will be converted on the fly into CHE of
destination. And if this transaction comes back it will fit in
original nominal. All the time real value remains and no "substantial
profit" should appear. And even speculation on exchange rates could
not take place.
For example:
CHE(es) = 4.26€ = 5,54$ (EURUSD=1,30)
CHE(Alb) = 7.25$
Transaction for Spain of 10 CHE(es) to Alabama will come as
10*(5,53/7,25)=7,64 CHE(Alb)
So, if you like, you can use CHE(locals) in villages.cc as more or
less unified way of local currency. Those 10 dollars LETSs came close
to this (10USD/Hour) more intuitive then logical.
So, CHE-ROCS it is not minor modification of our regular financial
mechanic, it is attempt to create unified, fair, balanced tool for
human interaction, protected from abuse and system error. Additional
measures prepared to keep local liquidity on sufficient level and to
motivate participants to act responsibly like in Participatory
politics. First response from influence on the system should be felt
by initiator of that influence.
>What happens here?
>Also where do those 175 come from?
> 40 * 4 = 160
> The typical work in Spain is 40 hours a week.
365/7=52,14 weeks in a year
52,14/12=4,345 weeks in a month
40*4,34=173,8 working hours a month
175 working hours is standard for some countries.
Alex
Jorge Timón
conversions like CHE-ROCS does, but villages needs to use only one
currency, so $10 hours.
2012/1/24, Alex Kotov <aleksand...@gmail.com>:
Kevin
It seems like if we are talking about unskilled hours, then we should
leave them as hours, and not pretend they have a fixed value in some
national currency. If they really are a fixed value of currency (like
$10), then why pretend they are "hours"?
If I do an hour of work for someone in Nicaragua, and they give me a
widget, and I take that widget to the US, is it worth about an hour of a
US worker's time? Or is it only worth 6 minutes?
I know it's a challenging (unsolvable?) problem, but I would like to see
each system be precise as to what units it is using.
Kevin
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Alex Kotov
On 22 янв, 00:15, Alex Kotov <aleksandr.koto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For deep theory CHE is a value of 1 hour of unqualified labor not
> burdened by considerable physical, emotional, mental load.
CHE does not have FIXED value in national currencies, it is unskilled
labor equivalent. But wages in national currencies for "unskilled
labor" set by law or could be found statistically and this could be
used to make value connection to them($,€..) and exchange rate of CHEs
from different regions could be easily determined. After that
approximation CHEs rates should be floating according real foreign
trade balance through this currencies (CHEs).
But anyhow CHE could not be fixed because minimal/living wages are not
fixed and rising continuously (due to shrining of national currencies
of course).
1 Hour of unskilled labor in Nicaragua will worth 1/7,25*60=8,3
minutes of unskilled labor in US. But if US foreign trade balance goes
deficit, and Nicaragua's - surplus - rate will changed to Nicaragua
"side".
Definition.
Does any national currency has definition to something. CHE has
definition to human time, human free time spending. Most easiest and
unskilled labor cost only our free time. You could not pay less then
"1 CHE per hour" - this is reference point. Free market should do the
rest. This opens economy where Human is a value, not paper, kW, silver
ounce or barrel of oil. "Man is the measure of all things”
Alex
Miles Thompson
Alex
--
Xekoukoulotakis Apostolos
--
Alex Kotov
>By agreement? How could such a thing possibly be enforced by a currency?
be set as agreement between organizers and participants. To force it
by market, somebody should continuously supply some "standard" service
by fixed price or buy and sell CC on flat rate. I think no one LETS
care about this. Some of them simply connect CC to value of silver/
gold and let stock market play with their CC.
Partly the rate of CHE is "fixed" by law. It is illegal to pay less
then minimal wage.
Additionally it is fixed psychologically: It is a bit silly
underestimate your labor below lowest even declared minimum.
And the last, in ZeroExchange software you could not just buy or sell
something for any price(it is not Bitcoin). You have to formalize it:
if it is a service - hours of service, and cost of an hour. By
software CHE is limited from below by 1. Of course you could play with
"hours of service", but for this you have to collude with other
parties of Contract. Idea of ZE is to as much as possible formalize
multilateral cooperation. - So, particularities of interactions
becomes available to others (also to avoid speculation). From another
side reputation system should filter out abusers.
If you have any ideas how to "fix" it in better way - please, advise.
>Xekoukoulotakis:
wages) CHEs rates should be floating according real foreign trade
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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Sincerely yours,
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Jorge Timón
were related to "cost of living" somehow it would be better.
What happens if there's a country without minimum wage laws?
2012/1/28, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xeko...@gmail.com>:
--
Jorge Timón
Kurt Padilla
Can't each individual user just specify their own conversion rates?
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2.
Jorge Timón
to guide people.
2012/1/28, Kurt Padilla <kurt.p...@gmail.com>:
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Alex Kotov
euro bill, an amount of euros. If you use the definition of 1 hour
based on the effort and skill it requires, you end up with a
contradiction since from that definition the ratio is 1:1. (Is the
equal?)"
Jorge:
were related to "cost of living" somehow it would be better.What
happens if there's a country without minimum wage laws?"
Luxembourg.
Are minimal wages/living wages are the same everywhere? Difference of
CHEs shows that working, living, economical conditions are different
from country to country, and not the people themselves. If American
moves to Greece and tries to find easy job which does not require
qualification, it will be less payed than in US. Even in Soviet Union
salaries were multiplied by coefficient deepens from difficulties of
working condition: more north - higher coefficient. That's why
original Timebanking (1:1) could not work globally. ROCS goes over
1:1, taking into account skills and hardload, and CHE-ROCS takes into
account different natural(and not) condition of working/living.
So, minimum wage approach works well, but it is not a point. We use it
only for initial data, quick start up of system. Later system will be
regulated by according real foreign trade balance between regions. It
is possible to start system with equal rate between regions
(1,1,1,...) and after some overregional interaction "che-money" will
move from regions with low minimal wages to regions with high minimal
wages. Same time "CHE exchange rates autopilot" will gradually
decrease rate of CHE in first ones and increase in second ones. It
will go on untill foreign trade would come to balance on certain
rates. Rates calculated from minimal wages are a bit artificial, and
from "exchange rates autopilot" - they will be live.
It works close to PPP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity(or
Big Mac Index) only for unskilled labor, and we use it for different
purpose.
Interesting thing: CHEs rates floating but localy it is stable. Localy
CHE is always has value of 1 hour of unskilled labor even if it is
value for foreign trade or in national currency is changing.
Kurt Padilla:
discharge unnecessary headache from user and to prevent
speculation. When distribution of CHE is known for the system - rates
are just a mathematical problem and could be done on server. User
will see only one CHE (and in local value).
Apostolis:
different amount of hours in each region for the same amount of work."
this has no effect on CHE as standard of measure of value. Even in one
region wage of programmers (i.e. 4 CHE/hour) could be float. But this
is due to free market of labor.
Apostolis:
we oblige somebody to pay for that, someones will abuse or misuse
this. Our goal to set adequate criteria for labor cooperation.
Apostolis:
value of fiat money. But in order for that to work, the issuers of
those hours would have to work those hours if nobody accepts their
hour bills or their hour bill shave lost their value."
issued 1 CHE to Alice for 20 apples, only to Alice or via Alice they
could be compensated. So, if she agreed to accept them by that value,
it is up to her. To make no mistake Alice could to take into account
rate of CHE to Euro and she "always" could ask me to pay back in cash.
As I understood Ripple operates not real bonds, notes but their
values. If I refuse to pay to Alice I could not destroy currency or
shrink its value for others as it happens with fiat money.
Alex
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
Alex
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Jorge Timón
> Jorge:
> "Yes, the minimum wage approach doesn't seem consistent. Maybe if it
> were related to "cost of living" somehow it would be better.What
> happens if there's a country without minimum wage laws?"
>
> 50 €/hour * 175=8750€/month it is much more then average, even for
> Luxembourg.
> Are minimal wages/living wages are the same everywhere? Difference of
> CHEs shows that working, living, economical conditions are different
> from country to country, and not the people themselves. If American
> moves to Greece and tries to find easy job which does not require
> qualification, it will be less payed than in US. Even in Soviet Union
> salaries were multiplied by coefficient deepens from difficulties of
> working condition: more north - higher coefficient. That's why
> original Timebanking (1:1) could not work globally. ROCS goes over
> 1:1, taking into account skills and hardload, and CHE-ROCS takes into
> account different natural(and not) condition of working/living.
Wait, does CHE-ROCS establish a conversion for hours between profession?
All the hours in the same profession must be charged the same?
> So, minimum wage approach works well, but it is not a point.
You cannot say that as an absolute. Unless you think minimum wage laws
are proportional to the cost of living in every country of the world.
Just to know where we are. You're not in favor of minimum wage laws, right?
> We use it only for initial data, quick start up of system. Later system will be
> regulated by according real foreign trade balance between regions. It
> is possible to start system with equal rate between regions
> (1,1,1,...) and after some overregional interaction "che-money" will
> move from regions with low minimal wages to regions with high minimal
> wages. Same time "CHE exchange rates autopilot" will gradually
> decrease rate of CHE in first ones and increase in second ones. It
> will go on untill foreign trade would come to balance on certain
> rates. Rates calculated from minimal wages are a bit artificial, and
> from "exchange rates autopilot" - they will be live.
> It works close to PPP
Why not let the market do this by allowing people to decide their
exchange rate and for the rates of the different CHEs to float freely?
Without an "smart system" controlling it.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity(or
> Big Mac Index) only for unskilled labor, and we use it for different
> purpose.
> Interesting thing: CHEs rates floating but localy it is stable. Localy
> CHE is always has value of 1 hour of unskilled labor even if it is
> value for foreign trade or in national currency is changing.
That depends on what you mean by locally. If you mean "within the same
country" I doubt it.
People earn (and spend) more in Madrid than in Badajoz. Market prices
of labor are higher in Madrid because people need more money to do the
same things.
--
Jorge Timón
Alex Kotov
On 30 янв, 04:42, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekou...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> are assuming that the wage of 1 hour and the effort of 1 man-hour are the
> same. In my opinion, the creator of the rocs system was talking about the 1
> man-hour.
"the value of the HOUR is negotiated at the moment of a transaction: a
dentist may charge 5 ROCS hours for each hour of work for example."
classical "1 man-hour man-hour or person-hour is the amount of work
performed by an AVERAGE worker in one hour"
- So, it could not be ROCS. There are no "average" in ROCS. Every
labor has his special value, which is set by free market.
Thank you for questions,
Will try to write more detailed documentation.
Alex
Alex Kotov
On 30 янв, 08:58, Jorge Timón <timon.elvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/1/30, Alex Kotov <aleksandr.koto...@gmail.com>:
> > Jorge:
> > "Yes, the minimum wage approach doesn't seem consistent. Maybe if it
> > were related to "cost of living" somehow it would be better.What
> > happens if there's a country without minimum wage laws?"
>
> > 50 €/hour * 175=8750€/month it is much more then average, even for
> > Luxembourg.
> > Are minimal wages/living wages are the same everywhere? Difference of
> > CHEs shows that working, living, economical conditions are different
> > from country to country, and not the people themselves. If American
> > moves to Greece and tries to find easy job which does not require
> > qualification, it will be less payed than in US. Even in Soviet Union
> > salaries were multiplied by coefficient deepens from difficulties of
> > working condition: more north - higher coefficient. That's why
> > original Timebanking (1:1) could not work globally. ROCS goes over
> > 1:1, taking into account skills and hardload, and CHE-ROCS takes into
> > account different natural(and not) condition of working/living.
>
> Wait, does CHE-ROCS establish a conversion for hours between profession?
CHE-ROCS sets new scale for measuring value of labor, through standard
of unskilled labor.
> > So, minimum wage approach works well, but it is not a point.
>
> You cannot say that as an absolute. Unless you think minimum wage laws
> are proportional to the cost of living in every country of the world.
> Just to know where we are. You're not in favor of minimum wage laws, right?
calculation. (Same as on smartphone, sell-network helps to find GPS-
position earlier.) But later, more accurate live calculation through
foreign trade balance overrides old ones.
> > regulated by according real foreign trade balance between regions. It
> > is possible to start system with equal rate between regions
> > (1,1,1,...) and after some overregional interaction "che-money" will
> > move from regions with low minimal wages to regions with high minimal
> > wages. Same time "CHE exchange rates autopilot" will gradually
> > decrease rate of CHE in first ones and increase in second ones. It
> > will go on untill foreign trade would come to balance on certain
> > rates. Rates calculated from minimal wages are a bit artificial, and
> > from "exchange rates autopilot" - they will be live.
> > It works close to PPP
>
> Why not let the market do this by allowing people to decide their
> exchange rate and for the rates of the different CHEs to float freely?
> Without an "smart system" controlling it.
speculation. Regular workers will only waste their time by updating
thousands of rates, mostly without any idea what they should be. Only
speculator who spends for that all his time (like on forex) will find
it helpfull. I understand "personal rates" looks as a part of
freedom. But in system where all data (at least for the server) are
open, "rates" are determined by mathematics. You would not let people
to convert miles to km how they wish. I mean it is not a personal
decision.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity(or
> > Big Mac Index) only for unskilled labor, and we use it for different
> > purpose.
> > Interesting thing: CHEs rates floating but localy it is stable. Localy
> > CHE is always has value of 1 hour of unskilled labor even if it is
> > value for foreign trade or in national currency is changing.
>
> That depends on what you mean by locally. If you mean "within the same
> country" I doubt it.
> People earn (and spend) more in Madrid than in Badajoz. Market prices
> of labor are higher in Madrid because people need more money to do the
> same things.
>
condition. For some countries local minimal wages already set. (US,
China, Russia). Server will watch localities up to town. As soon as
Foreign Trade Balance moves from zero to some significant value, rate
would change from 1:1, and keep on rising/falling till FTB comes to
zero.
So, even rate is not set for Madrid - it will appear soon. For the
moment rate calculation done empirically. But soon I hope we find
formula similar gravitational redshift/blueshift in General Relativity
Theory.
Alex
Jorge Timón
If your reference rates calculated mathematically are wrong, people
can just ignore them, right?
Your analogy between miles/km and aHours/bHours doesn't convince me.
One talks about value, which is always relative, and the other about
space which has been always (and should still be) absolute. I don't
want to get you bored with my objections to Einstein here, but it's
not the same thing. Economics is a social science.
PS
What's "redshift/blueshift in General Relativity Theory". Do you mean
the Doppler effect?
2012/1/31, Alex Kotov <aleksand...@gmail.com>:
Alex Kotov
On 31 янв, 16:48, Jorge Timón <timon.elvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If it's all negotiable, everything's ok.If your reference rates calculated mathematically are wrong, peoplecan just ignore them, right?
>
If you steer the course on yacht, your heading is "never" right, but
floats near desired value. And what is right/wrong in a matter of
currency rates. PPP, Big Mac index show that it all relative and
speculative market rate looks as worst. It is matter or point of view.
In CHE-ROCS it is rule Unskilled Labor PPP.
Participant from Spain/Badajoz observes "outer world" prices in his
local CHE, (in local minimal wages). If some how rates were wrong - he
will observe foreign prices a bit higher or lower. But his regional
prices for outer world would have same error. And if he would try
speculate on this, system will note rising disbalance and adjust rates
accordingly. He could not ignore these rate in actions inside the
system. But maybe it better open this future just as political reason.
He would change rates only from his side - most probably he will not
only lose on his guess rates because he does not have complete and
updated information about destribution of CHEs.
> Your analogy between miles/km and aHours/bHours doesn't convince me.One talks about value, which is always relative, and the other aboutspace which has been always (and should still be) absolute. I don'twant to get you bored with my objections to Einstein here, but it'snot the same thing. Economics is a social science.
>
May be this is a point. For the moment present economics is asocial
science, as it lets personal interests dominate over common. One
principle of future project Eka-Pepple (which will use CHE-ROCS): win-
win-others no lose. Everything is allowed that is not bad for society.
At ancient times distribution of gold and silver were unknown for
trader and sounding of it was done of by market, by game of personal
guesses. Nowadays, for open data systems, such game could be left in a
part without appreciable losses.
> PSWhat's "redshift/blueshift in General Relativity Theory". Do you meanthe Doppler effect?
Yes, good idea, it would be easier to present mechanics of CHE-ROCS on
this not so complicated approximation. Give me a time. I will prepare
it soon.
Alex
Jorge Timón
>
>
> On 31 янв, 16:48, Jorge Timón <timon.elvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If it's all negotiable, everything's ok.If your reference rates calculated
>> mathematically are wrong, peoplecan just ignore them, right?
>>
> If you steer the course on yacht, your heading is "never" right, but
> floats near desired value. And what is right/wrong in a matter of
> currency rates. PPP, Big Mac index show that it all relative and
> speculative market rate looks as worst. It is matter or point of view.
> In CHE-ROCS it is rule Unskilled Labor PPP.
> Participant from Spain/Badajoz observes "outer world" prices in his
> local CHE, (in local minimal wages). If some how rates were wrong - he
> will observe foreign prices a bit higher or lower. But his regional
> prices for outer world would have same error. And if he would try
> speculate on this, system will note rising disbalance and adjust rates
> accordingly. He could not ignore these rate in actions inside the
> system. But maybe it better open this future just as political reason.
> He would change rates only from his side - most probably he will not
> only lose on his guess rates because he does not have complete and
> updated information about destribution of CHEs.
I don't know what's so wrong with markets. If money weren't free for
bankers and at interest for the rest, the speculation market would far
smaller. If there were free-money instead of money-capital, the
speculation market would be small enough to perform its function
(arbitrage, good for society) and nothing more.
>> Your analogy between miles/km and aHours/bHours doesn't convince me.One
>> talks about value, which is always relative, and the other aboutspace
>> which has been always (and should still be) absolute. I don'twant to get
>> you bored with my objections to Einstein here, but it'snot the same thing.
>> Economics is a social science.
>>
> May be this is a point. For the moment present economics is asocial
> science, as it lets personal interests dominate over common. One
> principle of future project Eka-Pepple (which will use CHE-ROCS): win-
> win-others no lose. Everything is allowed that is not bad for society.
And how would you know what is good and what is bad in absolute terms.
> At ancient times distribution of gold and silver were unknown for
> trader and sounding of it was done of by market, by game of personal
> guesses. Nowadays, for open data systems, such game could be left in a
> part without appreciable losses.
I still prefer the market. I'm sure Bernanke has a lot of data and run
computer simulations, but still he ain't god.
>> PSWhat's "redshift/blueshift in General Relativity Theory". Do you meanthe
>> Doppler effect?
> Yes, good idea, it would be easier to present mechanics of CHE-ROCS on
> this not so complicated approximation. Give me a time. I will prepare
> it soon.
I have no idea how I've inspired you, but I'm really curious.