(OT) Crash of US carmakers risks three million jobs
Chester
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/16/automotive-us-joblosses
Three million jobs could be lost in a year if America's so called 'Big
Three' carmakers - General Motors, Ford and Chrysler - are allowed to
collapse, an expert predicts.
David Cole, head of the Centre for Automotive Research (CAR), an
influential Detroit think-tank, said that so many US businesses
depended on the Big Three for survival that allowing even one of the
carmakers to fail would lead to tens of thousands of jobs losses
nationwide.
'The immediate shock to the economy would be felt well beyond the
Detroit companies, negatively impacting the US operations of
international manufacturers and suppliers as well. Nearly three
million jobs would be lost in the first year if there was a 100 per
cent reduction in Big Three US operations,' Cole said.
Cole said: 'The likelihood of one or two of the Big Three ending
operations is very real.'
Job losses among suppliers of car parts and car sales companies, as
well as those on the production lines, would be compounded by a
massive drop in taxes and consumer spending power that would further
cripple the already hobbled American economy.
'Our model estimates that a complete shutdown of Detroit three US
production would have a major impact on the US economy in terms of
lost wages, reductions in social security receipts,
personal income taxes paid, and an increase in transfer payments,'
said Sean McAlinden, CAR's chief economist.
Brenda Ann
"Chester" <cheley_b...@live.com> wrote in message
news:a5635386-dca2-4a25...@e38g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
And don't forget to factor in lost overseas jobs in sales, parts
manufacturing, etc., that would also reflect back on the world, and therefor
the US, economy.
Chester
> "Chester" <cheley_bonstel...@live.com> wrote in message
Loss of three million jobs
= loss of spending power
= dipping into savings / IRA
= Selling continues in Stock markets World Wide
= malls closing en mass
= more unemployed retail workers
= Nobody Flies
= Nobody Drives
= Nobody buys
= Nobody Thrives
- Now how does the US Economy recover
in a perfect downward economic spiral as projected above
-??
Dave
> - Now how does the US Economy recover
>
> in a perfect downward economic spiral as projected above
>
>
That is how the economy recovers. Austerity ain't so bad.
barnegatdx
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/16/automotive-us-joblosses
OK,
- Show quoted text -
Loss of three million jobs
= loss of spending power
= dipping into savings / IRA
= Selling continues in Stock markets World Wide
= malls closing en mass
= more unemployed retail workers
= Nobody Flies
= Nobody Drives
= Nobody buys
= Nobody Thrives
- Now
in a perfect downward economic spiral as projected above
tell me how the U.S economy as described above recovers..
<RJ>
>Chester wrote:
>
>> - Now how does the US Economy recover
>>
I know.... I KNOW THE ANSWER !!
Lets have the government ( gummint for Southerners )
GIVE every taxpayer a GM automobile !!
barnegatdx
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:43:05 +0000, Dave <d...@dave.dave> wrote:
> >Chester wrote:
>
> >> - Now how does the US Economy recover
>
> I know.... I KNOW THE ANSWER !!
>
> Lets have the government ( gummint for Southerners )
> GIVE every taxpayer a GM automobile !!
Yeah ! Big SUV
- something to sleep in at least
RHF
Chester,
Yes - The Transformation of US Automakers Risks
Three Million Jobs -but- Without a Transformation
All Those Jobs Could Be Gone With a Crash of the
Automobile Industry :
No Business = No Jobs = No Unions = No Retirees
Benefits and No American Made Cars by American
Companies either.
Throwing Good Tax Payer Money after Bad Investment
Money Lost and Non-Sustainable Employee Benefit
Costs is NOT the Answer : Transformation is the
Answer to a Healthy Auto Industry in the USA and
Long Term Employment for American Workers in the
US Auto Industry.
Unions Ain't the Problem : Sustainable Employment
Benefits that are Consistent with the Rest of
American Workers are a Real Issue
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/04bc56aec74d1698
To Solve the Auto Companies Problems
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/06494bad0ee1458f
it's a 'vision' thingee ~ RHF
.
Bob Campbell
news:a5635386-dca2-4a25...@e38g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/16/automotive-us-joblosses
>
> Three million jobs could be lost in a year if America's so called 'Big
> Three' carmakers - General Motors, Ford and Chrysler - are allowed to
> collapse, an expert predicts.
Gee, maybe if they produced products that people wanted to buy, priced so
that people could afford them, they wouldn't be in this mess. I know
that's a radical concept but that's what Capitalism is all about. When you
produce crap you go out of business.
I haven't bought a U.S. made car in 25 years. Real Americans buy what they
like, not what someone tells them to buy.
Let's face it, the market can no longer support 3 U.S. auto manufacturers.
One of them needs to go away and/or one needs to buy one of the others.
Worst case bail out GM on the condition that they buy Ford. The resulting
consolidation of management/purchasing/production should make them both
viable.
Chrysler was already saved once 30 years ago, how many times do we have to
do this? Chrysler is a loser, having been bought by Daimler in 1998 for
$36 Billion and then sold off in 2007 for a little over $7 Billion. Is
this company really worth "saving"?
dxAce
Chester wrote:
Any bail-out by the Gov. will only prolong the agony. The way forward is for one
or all to declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is not a closure, but a means to
re-organize.
Billy Burpelson
> Gee, maybe if they produced products that people wanted to buy, priced
> so that people could afford them, they wouldn't be in this mess.
Huh?
The auto manufacturers WERE producing products people wanted to buy.
SUVs were selling like hot cakes because the public WANTED them.
Sounds like you would like to see the auto companies go out of business.
Fair enough. But does the phrase "Cutting off your nose to spite your
face" mean anything to you?
Dave
> in a perfect downward economic spiral as projected above
>
>
> tell me how the U.S economy as described above recovers..
>
Very slowly...
Dave
I would do away with Chrysler completely, and the passenger car
divisions of the other two. Keep the divisions that can build 2 1/2 ton
trucks and HMMVs alive with DOD subsidies in the name of national
security. Michigan can still produce wooden shoes and soul music.
Bob Campbell
news:DhdUk.4570$8_3....@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Sounds like you would like to see the auto companies go out of business.
> Fair enough. But does the phrase "Cutting off your nose to spite your
> face" mean anything to you?
No, it does not apply here.
Lots of companies are in trouble. Lots of companies go broke/out of
business every year. Should they all be "saved"? What makes auto
companies so special?
They claim "we can't make a profit selling small cars!" Well, you better
figure it out or you are going out business.
Bob Campbell
news:49216f30$0$31747$bd46...@news.dslextreme.com...
>> Chrysler was already saved once 30 years ago, how many times do we have
>> to do this? Chrysler is a loser, having been bought by Daimler in 1998
>> for $36 Billion and then sold off in 2007 for a little over $7 Billion.
>> Is this company really worth "saving"?
>
> I would do away with Chrysler completely, and the passenger car divisions
> of the other two. Keep the divisions that can build 2 1/2 ton trucks and
> HMMVs alive with DOD subsidies in the name of national security. Michigan
> can still produce wooden shoes and soul music.
That's not a bad idea. There will always be a need for trucks, and Chevy
and Ford make the best.
I agree completely about Chrysler, they are done. That's why I asked above
"Is this company worth saving again?"
Billy Burpelson
> "Billy Burpelson" <bi...@burpelsonafb.net> wrote in message
> news:DhdUk.4570$8_3....@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> Sounds like you would like to see the auto companies go out of
>> business. Fair enough. But does the phrase "Cutting off your nose to
>> spite your face" mean anything to you?
Bob Campbell wrote:
> No, it does not apply here.
Here we differ. I believe it DOES apply to you and your town or state,
directly or indirectly if the auto companies go under.
> Lots of companies are in trouble. Lots of companies go broke/out of
> business every year. Should they all be "saved"? What makes auto
> companies so special?
Um, they're probably 'so special' because they provide a *lot* more
direct and indirect jobs to this country than the greedy whores and
thieves on Wall Street who got bailed out.
Please 'splain why it's fine to bail out Wall Street and not the autos.
Billy Burpelson
> I agree completely about Chrysler, they are done. That's why I asked
> above "Is this company worth saving again?"
I'm no fan of Chrysler and they are definitely the 'weak sister' of the
Big Three.
But before you gloat too much when you ask "Is this company [Chrysler]
worth saving *again*?", let me respectfully point out the following:
1) When they were previously 'saved', it was a LOAN, not a gift.
2) The loan was paid back early.
3) The U.S. Taxpayers made money on the deal (interest on the loan).
Finally and lest you overlook it, Chrysler provided tens of thousands of
direct and indirect jobs to the nation's economy and paid income,
property and Social Security taxes for roughly the last *25 years*. So,
tell us again why you think a bail out is a bad thing.
Please, don't gloat too hard; the person you hurt may be yourself, your
state or your nation.
Bob Campbell
>
> Here we differ. I believe it DOES apply to you and your town or state,
> directly or indirectly if the auto companies go under.
Auto manufacturers in Michigan have no bearing on jobs in Florida.
> Please 'splain why it's fine to bail out Wall Street and not the autos.
It is not "fine" to bail out either.
RHF
- But before you gloat too much when you ask
- "Is this company [Chrysler] worth saving *again*?",
- let me respectfully point out the following:
-
- 1) When they were previously 'saved',
- it was a LOAN, not a gift.
-
- 2) The loan was paid back early.
-
- 3) The U.S. Taxpayers made money on the deal
- (interest on the loan).
-
- Finally and lest you overlook it, Chrysler
- provided tens of thousands of direct and
- indirect jobs to the nation's economy and
- paid income, property and Social Security
- taxes for roughly the last *25 years*. So,
- tell us again why you think a bail out is
- a bad thing.
Billy Burpelson,
Last time around Chrysler Corp asked for and
received 'concessions' from the UAW Union.
The Big Problem in the US Auto Industry for the
Big {Sic} Three US Automakers is Union Labor Costs
and Union Retirement Costs.
GOT TOO BIG A PIECE OF THE PIE AND NOW THEY ARE
CHOCKING ON IT.
Must Look and Read :
Transformational UAW Deal? Accept Professors' Pay
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/07/uaw-pricing-themselves-out-of-market.html
WHO PAYS THE PRICE OF EXCESSIVE LABOR COSTS ?
Other American Workers Should Not and Must Not
Be Asked To PAY Higher UAW Union Wages then these
very same 'Other' American Workers are Getting
Themselves in the interest of Fairness and
Equality for All American Workers.
# 1 Crazy Pay Idea : Raise the US Minimum Wage
to the US Auto Makers Entry Level Wage of
$14.20 in 2007.
# 2 Crazy Pay Idea : Raise the Average US
Workers Health Care Benefits to the US Auto
Makers Benefit Level in 2007.
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/ford/hrly/ford_hr05.php
WHO PAYS THE PRICE OF EXCESSIVE RETIREMENT COSTS ?
Other American Retirees Should Not and Must Not Be
Asked To PAY Higher UAW Union Retirement Payments
then these very same 'Other' American Retiree are
Getting Themselves in the interest of Fairness
and Equality for All American Retirees.
# 3 Crazy Pay Idea : Raise the Average Monthly
US Social Security Benefit Check to the US Auto
Makers Benefit Level in 2007.
# 4 Crazy Pay Idea : Raise the Average Monthly
US Social Security Health Care Benefits to the
US Auto Makers Benefit Level in 2007.
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/ford/hrly/ford_hr05.php
NOTE - The newer emerging 'other' {non} Big-3 {Sic}
US Automakers are doing 'ok' not great but 'ok'
WARNING - Here-Is-Something-To-Think-About :
Within 5-Years 'imported' Chinese Made Cars
and Trucks will be coming into the US Market;
and within 15-Years will have a significant
market share. TBL the US Auto Industry has at
best a 'short-term' future; before the Chinese
Crash the US Auto Market with even lower costs
and as-good-as quality to US Brands Names.
News-to-Read :
Toyota, BMW, Hyundai Workers' Senators Oppose Rescue
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aioYCz6oeXwc&refer=home
IMHO - Any Car or Truck that is Assembled in the
USA is an American Car -and- Any One Working in
an American Auto Planet is an American Auto Worker.
-ps- The Last American Brand Name FORD that
we bought was 'Assembled in Mexico' :
-translation- IT AIN'T NO AN AMERICAN CAR [.]
? What Is An American Built Car ?
Forget the Brand Names : Just Ask Where Was
The Car Built-Assembled : A Honda that is
Assembled in a US Auto Plant by an American
Worker is an American Car [.]
Toyota + Honda + Nissan + Kia + BMW + MB Cars
and Trucks that are Assembled in the USA by
American Workers Are All "American Made"
Built-Assembled-in-Canada : Ain't American Made.
Built-Assembled-in-Mexico : Ain't American Made.
The so-called "Big-3" are Dinosaurs and they are
Dying of the UAW Labor Cost and Retirement Disease.
Toyota + Honda + Nissan + Kia + BMW + MB are
doing 'ok' in the USA and their American Workers
have a future : Because the Companies and the
Workers have a 'Balanced' Long Term Relationship.
A New Industrial Standard must be set for the US
Auto Industry and Throwing Cash at a Big-3 made
Sick by Bad Union Contracts and Over Burdensome
Retirement Cost is NOT THE ANSWER [.]
Big-3 Bankruptcy + Reorganization & Restructuring
= A New Beginning and Long Term Employment for the
US Auto Workers.
TRANSFORMATION - Not A Bail-Out
Transformation of US Automakers Risks Three Million Jobs
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/69d70b304d050832
TRANSFORMATION - Sustainable Costs and Employment
Unions Ain't the Problem : Sustainable Employment
Benefits that are Consistent with the Rest of
American Workers are a Real Issue
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/04bc56aec74d1698
TRANSFORMATION - Fix It For Good -versus-
Propping It Up Until It Fails Again.
To Solve the Auto Companies Problems
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/06494bad0ee1458f
this is 'rhf' and i approve of this excessive
verbiage and out-of-control posting ~ RHF
.
Billy Burpelson
> "Billy Burpelson" <bi...@burpelsonafb.net> wrote in message
> news:6umUk.8551$YU2....@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> Here we differ. I believe it DOES apply to you and your town or state,
>> directly or indirectly if the auto companies go under.
Bob Campbell wrote:
> Auto manufacturers in Michigan have no bearing on jobs in Florida.
Well, I don't know -specifically- about Florida, but you seem to be a
bit naive about how wide and how deep the tentacles of the auto industry
reach.
Consider the auto company suppliers. There may be some in Florida -- or
not. For example, take a vendor that supplies seats to one or more of
the 'Big Three'. They buy seat springs and power seat motors from a
supplier. They have to buy vinyl from a chemical company. Someone,
somewhere, sells the raw materials to the chemical company and motor
supplier and the spring supplier. Someone sells the seat manufacturer
and chemical company and motor supplier the production machinery they
need to go about their ultimate business of supplying seats. And we have
just talked about -only- seats. How many other parts does a car need?
Get the drift? See where this is heading?
But wait! There's more!
I -am- sure that Florida has new car dealers. These dealerships have
salesmen, mechanics, receptionists, porters, service write-up reps.
Local IT people keep their computers running. The dealers (and
employees) pay local property taxes. They pay local utility bills. They
eat lunch at the local diners. Their mechanics buy tools from the guy
that drives around in his 'Snap-On' tool truck.
On and on it goes, more jobs than you have remotely considered.
So, yes, it DOES have a bearing on jobs in Florida and many other
states, not just Michigan, and it is foolishly naive of you to think
otherwise.
Brenda Ann
Most people never look at, nor want to see, the big picture. This isn't just
an American failing, younger Koreans are very vociferous about wanting the
US military to leave. On the surface, this is totally understandable.. it's
their country, after all. The older generation(s) see more of the big
picture: much of the Korean economy (not to mention national security)
counts on the US military either directly or indirectly. 10's of thousands
of vehicles are sold to the military every year. Perhaps at least as many
Korean nationals are employed directly by the military and it's support
services (USO, AAFES, other Exchange services, CAC's, et.al.). Then there's
the supplies of perishible foods, sanitary items, electicity, fuel, ad inf,
and all the support personnel that handle those things. Add in off base
housing, the increased shopping because of the military personnel (and their
command sponsored families), tourism It all adds up to a quite significant
part of the local economy, and none of THOSE people want the US to go away.
RHF
President Elect Barack Hussein Obama SEES
'The Big Picture' Bring Our Troop Home from
Korea : All That Money Needs To Be Spent In
The USA -and- All Those Jobs Being Created
Need To Be Created For Americans By Americans.
American Must Take Care of It's Own First [.]
Just Say NO to Foreign Wars of US Aggression
and Occupation Like Korea - Give World Peace
a Chance.
Bring Our Troops Home From Korean NOW !
Bring Our Troops Home From Europe NOW !
Bring Our Troops Home From Japan NOW !
Bring Our Troops Home From Iraq NOW !
Bring Our Troops Home From Afghanistan NOW !
i have been transformed - change is good ~ RHF
.
Dave
> On Nov 17, 2:47 pm, Billy Burpelson <bi...@burpelsonafb.net> wrote:
>> Bob Campbell wrote:
compensation". The workers are due that, with interest.
These pension funds were supposed to be invested in bonds and the like,
what happened there?
Universal health care would instantly make US automakers more
competitive with Japan, Germany and Koreastan.
Dave
communism...
RHF
Dave tell that to the United Airline Pilots and
All the 'other' American Workers who have been
Shafted Big Time by the US Government and US Laws
when their Company's File Bankruptcy.
Question - Why should American Tax Paying Workers
be paying the Bill for UAW Workers who make more
then them on-an-average ?
Bankruptcy + Reorganization = Long Term Employment
at Sustainable Wages consistant with the average
American Worker = True Equality in the Work Place.
Question - Why should American Tax Paying Retirees
be paying the Bill for UAW Retirees who get more
Retirement Money and Benefits then them on-an-average ?
Bankruptcy + Reorganization = Sustainable Retirement
Benefits consistent with the average American Retiree
= True Equality in Retirement for All Americans.
American Workers and American Retirees should not
have to / must not be force to Pay for Higher UAW
Wages and Higher UAW Retirement Benefits then they
themselves are Receiving in All Fairness and Equality.
an auto industry bail-out is a crime of inequality
against the vast majority of working and retired
american citizen taxpayers ~ RHF
.
RHF
Dave,
Actually the Military is an Socialist {Common Man}
Authoritarian System Managed by Elitists {Officers}
which is usually both unique-and-separate from the
rest of the Civilian Society that supports it.
Any Civilian Society that supports a Military does
have one aspect of Socialism 'nested' within it.
But the vast majority of Civilians Societies do
have a Military as a necessary adjunct to their
Civilian Society : What Works Works !
~ RHF
.
Dave
>
> Question - Why should American Tax Paying Workers
> be paying the Bill for UAW Workers who make more
> then them on-an-average ?
I don't think they should. I also don't think that the companies should
be allowed to stay in business if they can't pay their bills, including
legacy labor costs. Their shareholders and executives should go down in
flames of disgrace. Unlike the Delphi deal.
Let the bodies hit the floor...
Dave
>> "Defense" is the biggest welfare program of them all. Talk about yer
>> communism...
>
> Dave,
>
> Actually the Military is an Socialist {Common Man}
> Authoritarian System Managed by Elitists {Officers}
> which is usually both unique-and-separate from the
> rest of the Civilian Society that supports it.
>
> Any Civilian Society that supports a Military does
> have one aspect of Socialism 'nested' within it.
>
> But the vast majority of Civilians Societies do
> have a Military as a necessary adjunct to their
> Civilian Society : What Works Works !
>
> ~ RHF
> .
Standing armies in an age of push-button warfare are a waste of money.
If somebody steps out of line, send in the UAVs and wreck their capitol.
Wreck 'em real good.
RHF
- Let the bodies hit the floor...
Fucking "NO" Dave,
Don't Let the UAW Workers Bodies Hit the Floor.
Don't Let the Big-3 Retiree Bodies Hit the Floor.
The American Auto Workers Need the Support
of the American People -but- At a Sustainable
Wage consistent with the 'other' Non-Big-3
Automotive Planets in the USA.
The Retired American Auto Workers Need the
Support of the American People -but- At a
Sustainable Retirement [Max Social Security]
and Medical Benefits consistent with the 'other'
American Retirees under Social Security.
SHIT HAS TO HAPPEN : The Companies need to
go through Bankruptcy and Reorganization :
1 - Corporate Executives and Broad Members
Must Be Fired/Terminated FOR CAUSE without
Golden Parachutes and Banned from their
Companies for Five Years.
* NO MANAGEMENT BAIL-OUT.
2 - Investors and Stock Holders Must Take
Their Losses and be no better off than the
Auto Workers.
* NO INVESTOR BAIL-OUT.
3 - The Workers Need Their New Sustainable
Wage Jobs consistent with 'other' American
Workers in the Auto Industry.
* NEW JOBS AND A FUTURE FOR THE WORKERS.
4 - The Retirees Need Their New Sustainable
Retirement Benefits consistent with 'other'
American Retirees on Social Security.
* NEW RETIREMENT AND SECURITY FOR THE RETIREES.
5 - All of the Above is Based on the US
Federal Government taking an Equity Share
in each of the Auto Companies that goes
through this process.
* PAY-BACK FOR THE TAXPAYERS.
it don't take a rocket scientist ~ RHF
-ps- but 'sae' might help
http://www.sae.org/about/general/history/
.
RHF
> RHF wrote:
> >> "Defense" is the biggest welfare program of them all. Talk about yer
> >> communism...
>
> > Dave,
>
> > Actually the Military is an Socialist {Common Man}
> > Authoritarian System Managed by Elitists {Officers}
> > which is usually both unique-and-separate from the
> > rest of the Civilian Society that supports it.
>
> > Any Civilian Society that supports a Military does
> > have one aspect of Socialism 'nested' within it.
>
> > But the vast majority of Civilians Societies do
> > have a Military as a necessary adjunct to their
> > Civilian Society : What Works Works !
>
> > ~ RHF
> > .
- Standing armies in an age of push-button warfare
- are a waste of money.
- If somebody steps out of line, send in the UAVs
- and wreck their capitol.
- Wreck 'em real good.
Dave there is a better Answer and
it is a One Word : "Diplomacy" ~ RHF
Back-Up-By : The Readiness and Ability To Fight
For America's Freedoms and Democracy
A 'Standing' Military is About Readiness.
-concept- Peace Through Strength
I Say - God Bless America and Our Military - Amen ~ RHF
{ Peace Through Strength }
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_through_strength
SUN TZU => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
http://www.peacethroughstrength.net/
ASC => www.ascusa.org/
www.americansecuritycouncil.org/pts_history?
.
America's Global Leadership Role :
Promoting World Peace Through Strength !
The American Security Council (ASC) Foundation
GoTo=> http://www.ascfusa.org/asc_home.htm/
MOTTO: "Promoting Peace Through Strength"
.
Billy Burpelson
> RHF wrote:
>
>>
>> Question - Why should American Tax Paying Workers
>> be paying the Bill for UAW Workers who make more
>> then them on-an-average ?
Dave wrote (a pack of thoughtless statements):
> I don't think they should. I also don't think that the companies should
> be allowed to stay in business if they can't pay their bills, including
> legacy labor costs.
- They "can't pay their bills" because nobody is buying cars (SEVERELY
crimping the auto companies cash flow).
- Nobody is buying cars because they haven't got the cash/credit to do so.
- They don't have the cash/credit to do so because of the Wall
Street/housing/mortgage scandal.
Yet Congress bailed out the Wall Street whores and thieves that
triggered this mess. Does that bother you?
The "legacy costs" are just that -- legacy, as in from the *past*. Gee,
it's a damn shame that their crystal ball wasn't working 20 or 30 or
more years ago when these costs were committed to. How dare those mean
auto companies give their workers a decent pension.
> Their shareholders and executives should go down in
> flames of disgrace. Unlike the Delphi deal.
>
> Let the bodies hit the floor...
Unfortunately, there are very few "executives" that may (or may not)
deserve your 'punishment' and very, very many blue collar workers that
don't. The widely published figure is that 1 in 10 of the jobs in the
entire country are auto related. Very nice of you to condemn 10% of the
entire nation's work force to "hitting the floor".
If the autos go bankrupt, that will virtually guarantee this bad
recession turns into a Depression. How does it feel to cut your nose off
to spite your face? Because if the Depression hits, we are ALL in big
trouble, yourself included.
It comes down to two choices:
1) A really bad choice -- bailing out the autos.
2) A really, Really, REALLY bad choice -- letting them go bankrupt.
RHF
> > RHF wrote:
>
> >> Question - Why should American Tax Paying Workers
> >> be paying the Bill for UAW Workers who make more
> >> then them on-an-average ?
>
> Dave wrote (a pack of thoughtless statements):
>
> > I don't think they should. I also don't think that the companies should
> > be allowed to stay in business if they can't pay their bills, including
> > legacy labor costs.
>
> - They "can't pay their bills" because nobody is buying cars (SEVERELY
> crimping the auto companies cash flow).
>
> - Nobody is buying cars because they haven't got the cash/credit to do so.
>
> - They don't have the cash/credit to do so because of the Wall
> Street/housing/mortgage scandal.
- Yet Congress bailed out the Wall Street whores
- and thieves that triggered this mess.
- Does that bother you?
I SURE THE HELL DOES -tyvm- US FUCKING CONGRESS !
- The "legacy costs" are just that --
- legacy, as in from the *past*.
Sort of like the 'promises' that the US Congress
made for Social Security to Future Retirees 20
to 50 Years ago when the US Congress started
STEALING from the Social Security Trust [US] Fund.
- Gee, it's a damn shame that their crystal ball
- wasn't working 20 or 30 or more years ago when
- these costs were committed to.
Yeah It sure Is A Damn Shame that 48 Million
Retired and Disabled American Workers have been
getting SCREWED by the US Congress.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/blssaprimer.htm
- How dare those mean auto companies give
- their workers a decent pension.
Yeah How Dare The US Congress Pay Back Each
and Every of those 48 Million Retired American
Workers with an Indecent {Immoral} Low Social
Security Pension Check.
- - Their shareholders and executives should
- - go down in flames of disgrace.
Yeah - The US Congress both the House and
Senate should go down in Flames of Disgrace.
> Unlike the Delphi deal.
- - Let the bodies hit the floor...
Let the Voters Kick the US Congress Out-the-Door !
- Unfortunately, there are very few "executives"
- that may (or may not) deserve your 'punishment'
Unfortunately Each and Every Memeber of the
US Congress Deserves To Be Punished for the
Mess that Social Security is in.
- and very, very many blue collar workers that
- don't. The widely published figure is that 1
- in 10 of the jobs in the entire country are
- auto related.
That would mean that that each of those Jobs
ADDS to the Gross Pollution of the Planet :
Is Our "Choice" then to Save The Jobs
-or- Save the Planet ?
- Very nice of you to condemn 10% of the entire
- nation's work force to "hitting the floor".
Both Company's Management and the Auto Workers
made that 'choice' themselves when they 'chose'
to Demand and Pay Unsustainable Wages and
Excessive Retirement Benfits.
- If the autos go bankrupt, that will virtually
- guarantee this bad recession turns into a
- Depression.
NOW THAT IS TRUE AS HELL : By the Summer of 2009
China and other Foreign Buyers of US Credit {US
Treasury Notes and Bonds} will be Putting-the-Call
and the US Government Will Default.
China's [PRC] One Trillion Dollar Plan for their
own Economic Stabilization and Recovery during
this Crisis is Funded with US "Dollars" that they
currently have Invested with the US Treasury.
China will be withdrawing these Moneys and Spending
those Dollars in China Buying Chinese Goods and
Services. -read-between-the-lines- The US Will NOT
Be Getting Any of That Money Back.
- How does it feel to cut your nose off to spite
- your face?
The Next Decade Will Be Painful for just about
every American that still remains in the USA.
- Because if the Depression hits, we are ALL
- in big trouble, yourself included.
THAT THE FUCK WE ARE - BIG TIME [.]
- It comes down to two choices:
-
- 1) A really bad choice -- bailing out the autos.
-
- 2) A really, Really, REALLY bad choice
- letting them go bankrupt.
NO - In-Fact there are 'other' Options and Choices :
Special Laws that prescribe a Managed Process of
Business Model Restructuring and Reorganization
which includes a Labor-Management Partnership that :
1 - Corporate Executives and Broad Members
Must Be Fired/Terminated FOR CAUSE without
Golden Parachutes and Banned from their
Companies for Five Years.
* TELL THE US CONGRESS : NO MANAGEMENT BAIL-OUT.
2 - Investors and Stock Holders Must Take
Their Losses and be no better off than the
Auto Workers.
* TELL THE US CONGRESS : NO INVESTOR BAIL-OUT.
3 - The Workers Need Their New Sustainable
Wage Jobs consistent with 'other' American
Workers in the Auto Industry.
* TELL THE US CONGRESS : NEW JOBS AND A FUTURE
FOR THE AUTO WORKERS IN LINE WITH OTHER
INDUSTRIAL WORKERS. {Equality for All Workers}
4 - The Retirees Need Their New Sustainable
Retirement Benefits consistent with 'other'
American Retirees on Social Security.
* TELL THE US CONGRESS : NEW RETIREMENT AND
SECURITY FOR THE RETIREES IN LINE WITH SOCIAL
SECURITY. {Equality for All Retirees}
5 - All of the Above is Based on the US
Federal Government taking an Active Equity
Share in each of the Auto Companies that
goes through this process.
* TELL THE US CONGRESS : TO INSURE THERE IS
FULL AND COMPLETE PAY-BACK FOR THE AMERICAN
CITIZEN TAXPAYERS.
* TELL THE US CONGRESS : IT AIN'T BUSINESS AS USUAL !
{ And To Get Off Their Asses and Get To Work.}
Dave
> On Nov 18, 7:05 am, Dave <d...@dave.dave> wrote:
>> RHF wrote:
>>
>>> Question - Why should American Tax Paying Workers
>>> be paying the Bill for UAW Workers who make more
>>> then them on-an-average ?
>> I don't think they should. I also don't think that the companies should
>> be allowed to stay in business if they can't pay their bills, including
>> legacy labor costs. Their shareholders and executives should go down in
>> flames of disgrace. Unlike the Delphi deal.
>
> - Let the bodies hit the floor...
>
> Fucking "NO" Dave,
>
> Don't Let the UAW Workers Bodies Hit the Floor.
> Don't Let the Big-3 Retiree Bodies Hit the Floor.
>
both at the banks and at the automakers. No bailout money for golden
parachutes.
Dave
I am hoping for the death of capitalism. No pain, no gain. If the
autoworkers lead the way, they will be the heroes of the revolution.
In my post-capitalist anarchist-libertarian world, governments will
shrink to city-states which barter goods and services with their
neighbors. There will be an exchange medium (aka money) but no
arbitrage, lending, equity investing, etc.
salty...@gmail.com
which was established for them and is supposed to be dedicated to
shortwave radio information.
And they have a right to do so without wading through all the off
topic garbage you post and it isn't incumbent upon them to filter
obnoxious morons like you out, also many don't have the capability to
do so.
Start behaving like a responsible adult and filter yourself by posting
your nonsense in the appropriate newsgroups.