And the winner is...
Mark N
MotoGP:
Racer of the Year - Jorge Lorenzo. Something the Rossi faithful thought
they'd never see, a guy challenging and actually beating the GOAT (well,
some of the time), and on the same bike and the same tires. JL was the
revelation of the season, and really the only thing that saved MotoGP
from a rather dull year. And that he did that at age 22 in only his 2nd
year in MotoGP and his first on Bridgestones leaves great promise for
the future, especially so having shown real toughness and resiliency.
Plus, in the process he has managed to largely rehabilitate his image
from the cocky shit of 250 only a couple years ago to a thoughtful
professional.
Runnerup - Valentino Rossi. Really only because he won his 7th
championship (but, as usual, tried to overpromote that as his 9th) and
extended his record win total to 77 (overpromoting that one as well),
and no one else really stepped it up this year. His latest championship
was won on the best bike on the grid, but with the fewest wins and the
fewest points per race of any of his. Still, he remains the biggest name
in the sport, and the career numbers keep climbing. And in today's 800cc
MotoGP one has to cut him some slack as easily the tallest and heaviest
of the contenders, and the farthest from his 125/250 years...
Honorable Mention - Hiroshi Aoyama. Taking the last 250 championship on
the Honda from the EuroMed princes of GP on their Factory Aprilias was
the best underdog story of the year, even if it was accomplished more on
the failures of Bautista and Simoncelli than anything Hiro did. But a
feel-good story that ended the way it should have, with an excellent
performance at Sepang and some real drama at the final round before the
deserved conclusion.
Chump of the Year - Alvaro Bautista. He inherited the mantle of heir
apparent when he dominated the 2006 125 championship, then moved up to
250 class on his top team and with a top Aprilia. Then, after an '07
learning year the top three riders in 250 all moved up to MotoGP,
opening the door for his inevitable ascent to the throne. Which never
happened. In '07 he finished 4th in points with 2 wins, and in '09 he
still finished 4th in points with 2 wins, behind guys who finished 5th,
6th and 10th in '07. Last year he decided he wasn't quite ready to take
his inevitable spot in MotoGP, needing another year in 250 after
finishing 2nd to Simoncelli, but this year apparently he got the needed
experience after crashing away his championship chances, and will take
his reserved factory team seat in MotoGP in '10. No further comment
necessary.
The Biggest Story of the Year - Ducati Corse. Hayden's arrival and
abysmal early results finally made clear the problems with their
machine, which remained Stoner-only, and even Ducati finally 'fessed up,
although their public pronouncements really never were followed by a
real solution. Casey Stoner's Disease underlined their competitive
vulnerability, and then came the silliness of The Courtship of Jorge
Lorenzo, where it became clear how bad that machine's reputation has
become, and how much Marlboro and their wheelbarrows of money run
things, abandoning and embarrassing Stoner without a thought. Then the
redemptive Casey's Comeback, and finally the fittingly comic ending on
the warmup lap at Valencia. And in the background the '11 Rossi
Courtship has begun. What will they come up with next?
The Biggest Non-Story - Spec tires. There was no big controversy once
the racing started, no slide in lap times, no huge issue with
inappropriate tires and poor performance. On the other hand, it didn't
make the racing any closer overall (beyond perhaps reigning in Rossi
some), rather the opposite (the average margin from 1st to 5th over all
races increased for at least the 3rd straight year, and was nearly
double what it was in 2006), and it might well have made it more
boringly predictable. All I can say is, thank God the didn't choose
Michelin...
Most Positive Development - Moto2. The two strokes desperately needed to
go, especially too-expensive 250, and the solution was far from obvious.
But the series came up with a brilliant twist on the big-time racing
formula (out of necessity, it must be said - what was GP thinking when
they agreed with the FIM and WSB that it would be "prototype only"?)
that should produce cheap, close, rider-focused racing, on machines that
have some relevance to MotoGP, and suddenly the hardening closed-shop
125-250-MotoGP promotional path has developed some cracks. Hopefully
this class will evolve into a multi-factory modified production motor
affair, 125 will be replaced with something like a 400cc spec motor
junior version, and MotoGP will adopt lessons learned here to become
more vigorous and economically-viable.
Least Positive Development - The economy's impact and the reaction to
that. From Kawasaki's withdrawal to the imposed limitations on testing
and practice to the tightening of belts everywhere, this was a bad deal.
Best Moment - Final lap at Catalunya.
World Superbike:
Racer of the Year - Ben Spies, for winning the championship in his first
season. In the process he won Yamaha their first one, and came from
farther back in points than anyone else ever has in the process.
Runnerup - Ben Spies, for winning 14 races, which ties him with Bayliss
for the 2nd-most in a season (behind Polen), and is the most ever on a
Japanese machine and the most ever on a four-cylinder machine. And he
did that as a rookie visting most of the tracks for the first time.
Honorable Mention - Ben Spies, for taking a record 11 pole positions as
a rookie new to most of the tracks.
[In other words, Ben Spies was the whole story in WSB this year. But
I'll give a quick nod to Rea and Haslam anyway...]
Chump(s) of the Year - Haga, Fabrizio and Ducati Corse. They had been
given back their displacement advantage in '08 and Bayliss won them that
championship rather comfortably, they hired the 2nd-best guy to replace
him, they had the Ducati Must Win machine balancing rule snugly nestled
in the rulebook and they had six four-cylinder manufacturers contesting
them and making sure that rule worked for them. So Haga builds a huge
lead in points, suddenly the very personification of consistency. Then
as Spies comes on it all unravels, and even Fabrizio taking out Spies
while Haga was hurting can't quite save them. Then Haga goes into the
final round with a critical edge in points, making it a must-double
situation for Spies, and sucks in practice and qualifying and promptly
crashes out of the first race. The championship is gone, and then there
is second-guessing about lack of team orders and some of Fabrizio's
results. Now the talk of Haga deserving to finally win his championship
should really change to never deserving to be champion. Although the
rulebook remains the same, and may be the edge he needs next year.
Again. At least Tardozzi had the decency to quit.
The Biggest Story of the Year - Spies, of course.
The Biggest Non-Story - Phlegminis' Miracle. Spies and Ducati mostly
made a mockery of the reputation of WSB for close multi-rider racing at
the front. WSB immediately loses it's biggest new star ever, and in the
trade get two returning MotoGP failures (and maybe a player to be named
later). Superbike Island is down to one round and it's not at Brands,
while 2010 will quite likely see their only American round start to look
very shakey, with no local draw to rely on. Moto2 starts looking like a
nice place to go for WSB, WSS, BSB and even AMA riders. The much-lauded
spec tire idea did little to improve racing in MotoGP, AMA and BSB once
imported from its WSB source. And Valentino has stopped talking about
jumping there. Geez, the air came out of that balloon very quickly...
Most Positive Development - Uhh... KTM?
Best Moment - Final lap at Assen, race one.
AMA/DMG/NASBike:
Racer of the Year - Mat Mladin, and of the Decade, of course. A 7th
championship and a win total run into the 80s, both more than twice
anyone else's (and his premier class win total higher than anyone's
anywhere, although Rossi should eclipse it sometime in 2011). And real
respect, finally, after Spies showed everyone how good Mladin really has
been, and also his fight against DMG became totally justified. It's too
bad that his career ended as it did, in the fading DMG series with Mat
demotivated by it all, after a giant career largely in the shadows, he
really deserved more.
Runnerup - Josh Hayes. Finally got that elusive factory SB ride and did
the most with it, breaking the Suzuki winning streak, taking a total of
7 wins and 2nd in the championship. He's now the championship heir
apparent, but will anyone be watching? A WSB or Moto2 ride would be a
more fitting reward, methinks...
Honorable Mention - Danny Eslick. Sure, he had the overdog Buell, but he
did ride the piss out of that thing, which was at least entertaining to
watch. And it's nice to see a middle American dirttracker who hadn't
quite broken through in roadracing finally get there, no matter how it
happened.
Chump of the Year - Roger Edmondson, no contest. Single-handedly has
deconstructed America's professional racing series, making it the
laughingstock of the racing world, and now even the AMA wants their name
removed from this stinking pile. There's really no need to go into
further detail, it's just too depressing...
Biggest Story of the Year - See above...
Least Positive Development - Ditto...
Worst Moment - The pace car sitting in T1 at Laguna.
Best Moment - Final lap at New Jersey; at long last it was over and
everyone could just go home...
Overall:
Racer of the Year - Ben Spies, from his pole and win in the 2nd race at
Philip Island after being run off-track twice in the first race to his
WSB championship clinched at Portimao to his MotoGP wildcard ride and
test times at Valencia, he was the biggest story in the saddles all year
long.
Story of the Year - The general problems in professional racing,
exacerbated by the economy's woes and the evolving nature of racing as
an entertainment business and how that impacts the racing itself. This
year evidenced so many aspects of this, especially from an American
viewpoint. Overall, a downer year, only saved by Spies and to a lesser
extent Lorenzo.
Dirt
> [snip]
Enjoyable read. Thanks. This NG is much too quite of late.
My $0.02...
Spies-GP: I have more hope for him in MotoGP now than I did this time
two weeks ago. His performance in Valencia and in the subsequent
testing was extremely encouraging, especially when you consider that
he (by most accounts) didn't fiddle with the bike and only fiddled
with his own game. It's an extremely mature approach and I hope one
that rewards him. It'd be nice to see someone else besides Jorge take
it to Rossi. Could make for one or two interesting 3-ways next year.
Spies-SBK: I have much more appreciation for his WSBK championship
now that I've read Wayne Gardner's assessment of the seven bikes
posted elsewhere on this forum. I suppose it all has to be taken with
a grain of salt, however, since it's doubtful Gardner was capable of
riding hard enough to wring the last one or two percent (five or six
percent?) of performance out. After all, that's the zone where all
the WSBK regulars are supposed to reside, no?
Hayden: Solid improvement on the Ducati and I found his season's
progression encouraging since I'm a fan. However, I've lost any hope
that he'll ever achieve more than the isolated podium and/or win this
point. There's just something that doesn't gel about the impressions
he gives off. Despite his outward persona and his strong work ethic,
I get the impression that he either settles too easily or that he's
lost whatever edge he once had and doesn't believe in himself any more
after living in the same house as Stoner for a season.
Haga: What do you say? The championship was his and he lost it.
Toseland: Spies made him look silly in Valencia. I honestly thought
Toseland was better than he's proven this season. He, like my
impression of Hayden, has perhaps lost the faith?
Edwards: Gives me hope for old men. I've been a fan for a long time
and finishing the championship as the first "human" makes him look
very good. There's a nagging little voice in the back of my mind,
though, that keeps asking if any besides the four "aliens" were really
MotoGP calibre this year?
-Chris-
Julian Bond
I think you missed one.
Manufacturer of the year: Yamaha
- MotoGP 1-2
- WSB
- WSS
- BSB 1-2
- World Endurance
- German, Dutch, Aus championships and possibly others
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Wigner's Friend For President
Dave
<menusbau...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Time to hand out this year's Markie awards, so with no further ado...
>
>World Superbike:
>
>The Biggest Non-Story - Phlegminis' Miracle.
I would say the biggest non-story of the year for WSBK was the BSB
invasion. We had this much ballyhooed infusion of new riders that was
supposed to really up the rider talent level. Prior to the season
people right here on rmr were speculating that 12 or 15 guys could
possibly win races over the season. What a flop that was. In part
due to Spies and a lesser extent Haga. In part due to the economy
affecting teams like Stiggy. In part because the talent may have been
overstated. The most interesting of those riders to me was Haslam.
He really overperformed on a bike/team that probably shouldn't have
been as good as it was. Of course, Rea progressed quite well too and
will be a major factor for the championship over the next couple
years.
As for next year, I think Toseland is in a lose/lose situation where
anything less than a six wins and a title will be an embarrassing
failure. I'm hopeful that Kawasaki really does plan to focus heavily
on WSBK so Chris the V will have a good ride and show his true skills.
Julian Bond
>I would say the biggest non-story of the year for WSBK was the BSB
>invasion. We had this much ballyhooed infusion of new riders that was
>supposed to really up the rider talent level. Prior to the season
>people right here on rmr were speculating that 12 or 15 guys could
>possibly win races over the season. What a flop that was. In part
>due to Spies and a lesser extent Haga. In part due to the economy
>affecting teams like Stiggy. In part because the talent may have been
>overstated. The most interesting of those riders to me was Haslam.
>He really overperformed on a bike/team that probably shouldn't have
>been as good as it was. Of course, Rea progressed quite well too and
>will be a major factor for the championship over the next couple
>years.
>
>As for next year, I think Toseland is in a lose/lose situation where
>anything less than a six wins and a title will be an embarrassing
>failure. I'm hopeful that Kawasaki really does plan to focus heavily
>on WSBK so Chris the V will have a good ride and show his true skills.
Yup. Rea, Haslam, Byrne, Sykes, Crutchlow, Laverty didn't do very well,
did they.
Oh. Wait.
cafe...@gmail.com
-jim
Julian Bond
>On Nov 18, 11:15�pm, Julian Bond <julian_b...@voidstar.com> wrote:
>> Yup. Rea, Haslam, Byrne, Sykes, Crutchlow, Laverty didn't do very well,
>> did they.
>>
>> Oh. Wait.
>You're geographically biased..... ;)
>
Of course. But there are race wins, podiums and championship winners in
that lot. And some fairly good excuses for the others.
But enough about last year, what about next year? I don't expect Rea and
Haslam to get any slower. Byrne might be on a more competitive Ducati.
Crutchlow looks like he might be properly fast. I don't think we know
yet where Laverty will be. It may take a few races but I bet Camier
beats Biaggi by mid season (assuming he signs for Aprilia in the next
few hours).
Anyway. It's just a bit of sarcasm to follow the previous post that said
the BSB rookies were rubbish and then listed off how well the BSB
rookies had done.
And are there any other nationalities escaping from their local series
(train wrecks) that will do better?
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Time for a nice cup of tea and a biscuit
pablo
Entertaining post. Some comments...
> Racer of the Year - Jorge Lorenzo. ...
I disagree with that. He had his moments, but he also had an utterly
embarassing brainfreeze, and that when it really mattered and the
pressure was on. It was such a monumental mistake that I can not agree
with him being racer of the year...
> ... Something the Rossi faithful thought
> they'd never see, a guy challenging and actually beating the GOAT ...
Aren't we forgetting Stoner and Hayden there...? Geez, even Elias has
beaten Rossi one on one. :-)
> Runnerup - Valentino Rossi. Really only because he won his 7th
> championship ...
"Only"...? Kinda harsh eh? Especially considering the same landmark in
a nationa series turns Mladin into a legend and one of the best ever
etc... You gotta be a tad more consistent with the standards you
use. :-)
Rossi is awesome. It is sad that when someone is so good it can get a
bot boring, but at least Rossi puts on a good show that makes it look
like he doesn't take himself seriously. When in fact it is quite clear
he is a ruthless competitor.
> Honorable Mention - Hiroshi Aoyama.
Indded, great year for him.
> Chump of the Year - Alvaro Bautista. ...
Sure, but then you'd also have to throw in Simoncelli as runner up.
> The Biggest Story of the Year - Ducati Corse.
Well, they're Italian, so the drama will be there. To me the biggest
story of the year in MotoGP is Moto2 though. I think it may steal the
show. Behind that, though, I'd say that mighty Honda's humble position
in MotoGP is a big surprise and argualy the biggest story. The fact
they just can't get out of their slump is amazing.
> Least Positive Development - The economy's impact and the reaction to
> that. From Kawasaki's withdrawal to the imposed limitations on testing
> and practice to the tightening of belts everywhere, this was a bad deal.
Indeed. It has furthered the development that only 2-3 riders may
apply when it comes to winning races consistently.
> World Superbike:
>
> Racer of the Year - Ben Spies, for winning the championship in his first
> season. In the process he won Yamaha their first one, and came from
> farther back in points than anyone else ever has in the process.
Indeed an amazing achievement, and thus overall racer of the year. The
way he performed, keeping his cool and being devastatingly fast, wow.
> Chump(s) of the Year - Haga, Fabrizio and Ducati Corse.
I don't know, if they are such chumps than Spies' triumph is
diminished. It think Haga had a very good season, would have made a
worthy champion, but melted under pressure when Spies started
breathing down his neck. And for all the stuff about team orders, (a)
it's never a good thing, (b) it probably would not have made a
difference.
> Most Positive Development - Uhh... KTM?
I'd say Aprilia. Brilliant little bike.
...pablo
Champ
<menusbau...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Time to hand out this year's Markie awards, so with no further ado...
All great stuff, Mark.
Thought I'd add in some UK stuff, in case anyone cares
British Superbikes
Racer of the Year: Leon Camier, Airwaves Yamaha
Despite the fact that his Yamaha arrived 2 days before the first race,
and was virtually stock for the first couple of meetings, he was on
the pace straight away, and quickly dominant. 19 wins out of 26 races
speaks for itself. He made everyone else look rubbish. His team mate
James Ellison showed that the team and the bike were good by finishing
second, but he was nearly 150 points adrift.
Runner Up: Sylvain Guintoli, Worx Suzuki
Winning your first race on a new bike, in a new championship, at a
circuit you've never seen before, is pretty impressive. Being on the
podium in the next 3 races shows it wasn't luck. But then he got
taken out, with huge injuries, and misssed the next 6 meetings. But
on his first race back he was inside the top 10, and was challenging
for podiums at last meeting of the year. If anyone could have taken
the challenge to Camier, I think it would have been Sylvain.
Honorable Mention: Simon Andrews, MSS Kawasaki
Just because I'm a Kawasaki fan, and Andrews looked fast all year,
finally getting a podium at Cadwell Park. And he probably would have
won at Mallory if not taken out by Brookes (see below)
Chump of the Year: Josh Brookes
His crash at the hairpin of Mallory park, taking out the leader (Simon
Andrews) and several others, completely wrecking the race. The kicker
was the fact that, while the results for the red-flagged race were
taken from the previous lap, the riders who were taken out were not
included, because they didn't cross the line on *that* lap. This
rule, apparently unique to BSB, is a nonsense. Brookes got a 2 race
ban, which was the least he deserved.
Most Positive Development: the "Evo" class
Like the rest of the racing world, BSB is looking to control costs,
and the proposed solution is to use Superstock engines in Superbike
chassis, as a separate class alongside the full superbike entries
(effectively replacing the 'privateer cup'). And the Evo class will
do away with electronic aids by spec'ing a control ECU. Depending how
they run in 2010, this set of rules could be used for the whole grid
in 2011.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
sturd
> I think you missed one.
>
> Manufacturer of the year: Yamaha
>
> - MotoGP 1-2
> - WSB
> - WSS
> - BSB 1-2
> - World Endurance
> - German, Dutch, Aus championships and possibly others
You missed
AMA SX
FIM MX1
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
sturd
[pretty good stuff deleted]
> Racer of the Year - Jorge Lorenzo.
El Choke? I'd reverse these two
> Runnerup - Valentino Rossi.
For many of the same reasons you list. Nice to
see you included:::
> And in today's 800cc
> MotoGP one has to cut him some slack as easily the tallest and heaviest
> of the contenders, and the farthest from his 125/250 years...
> Honorable Mention - Hiroshi Aoyama.
Soichiro must be having an underground party. Last
250 championship before they go to 4 strokes and it's
a Honda taking the win. Good job Hiro.
> Chump of the Year - Alvaro Bautista.
runnerup Simoncelli
> The Biggest Story of the Year - Ducati Corse. Hayden's arrival and
> abysmal early results finally made clear the problems with their
> machine, which remained Stoner-only, and even Ducati finally 'fessed up,
> although their public pronouncements really never were followed by a
> real solution.
I still ain't buying it. Stoner is freakin fast but he's not
superman.
Bayliss's one data point proves the bike is better than some
of the riders Ducati has put on their bike. Hayden, Melandri,
and the rest of the Ducati second string need to take a lot
of the blame.
> Racer of the Year - Ben Spies, for winning the championship in his first
> season. In the process he won Yamaha their first one, and came from
> farther back in points than anyone else ever has in the process.
One thing Spies did that I think was bigger than anybody realizes.
He brought his own guys. If he can pull that off in MotoGP (I haven't
heard of that happening) I give him a better chance than if he
doesn't.
The team chemistry guys like Rossi/Burgess have is as important
as the rider's ability.
> Chump(s) of the Year - Haga,
I don't know about that. He sure choked at Portimao though.
> AMA/DMG/NASBike:
Who cares?
Michael Sierchio
> Aren't we forgetting Stoner and Hayden there...? Geez, even Elias has
> beaten Rossi one on one. :-)
Right - Elias doesn't get a ride, but plenty of others who have never
been on the podium do? Maybe it *is* all about who brings the
sponsorship money. And am I the only one who thinks Kallio doesn't
belong in the premier class?
Champ
<pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
>Behind that, though, I'd say that mighty Honda's humble position
>in MotoGP is a big surprise and argualy the biggest story. The fact
>they just can't get out of their slump is amazing.
Agreed. They need to blow some money on a rider how can get them up
there, because it looks like Dani isn't really it. Dani comes from a
long line of riders (Cadalora, Biaggi, etc) who are uncatchable when
everything is perfect, but can't challenge when it isn't.
>> Least Positive Development - The economy's impact and the reaction to
>> that. From Kawasaki's withdrawal to the imposed limitations on testing
>> and practice to the tightening of belts everywhere, this was a bad deal.
>
>Indeed. It has furthered the development that only 2-3 riders may
>apply when it comes to winning races consistently.
I think if you look back over the years, there's generally only ever
been 2 or 3 guys winning. If that. This year has been exceptional in
that regard.
Champ
<mikestur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Honorable Mention - Hiroshi Aoyama.
>
>Soichiro must be having an underground party. Last
>250 championship before they go to 4 strokes and it's
>a Honda taking the win.
As Soichiro famously hated 2-strokes, it must be a fairly bitter-sweet
celebration he's having :-)
Mark N
> Yup. Rea, Haslam, Byrne, Sykes, Crutchlow, Laverty didn't do very well,
> did they.
>
> Oh. Wait.
I agree, if it wasn't for Spies I think the British invasion might
have been the big story in the series this year. And the Brits should
be a very big story next year, although it's too bad that they may not
have a home round...
Dirt
> One thing Spies did that I think was bigger than anybody realizes.
> He brought his own guys. If he can pull that off in MotoGP (I haven't
> heard of that happening) I give him a better chance than if he
> doesn't.
> The team chemistry guys like Rossi/Burgess have is as important
> as the rider's ability.
He's taken at least his crewchief Tom Houseworth with him and I think
I remember reading he's taking two of his mechanics as well.
-Chris-
Andrew
Don't forget mom.
--
sent from my iPhone
Dirt
> Dirt <christopher.l.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > He's taken at least his crewchief Tom Houseworth with him and I think
> > I remember reading he's taking two of his mechanics as well.
>
> > -Chris
>
> Don't forget mom.
<shudder>
That's just wrong.
Mark N
> Hayden: Solid improvement on the Ducati and I found his season's
> progression encouraging since I'm a fan. However, I've lost any hope
> that he'll ever achieve more than the isolated podium and/or win this
> point. There's just something that doesn't gel about the impressions
> he gives off. Despite his outward persona and his strong work ethic,
> I get the impression that he either settles too easily or that he's
> lost whatever edge he once had and doesn't believe in himself any more
> after living in the same house as Stoner for a season.
I think his issues are mostly bike, but I am concerned with what his
circumstances have done to his head in the last four years. For a guy
to not be treated as a true #1 and then win the champ[ionship anyway,
then have the new bike be built for his teammate and to be demorte
immediately, then to get fired and move on only to be "Ducatied" is a
lot to not have it impact his confidence. Eventually the reality that
the series he's racing in doesn't want him doing too well has to have
an impact of some kind. But I don't think he's yet sunk out of sight
in this regard, I think if the bike gets better so will he, although
it will take a Stoner-like miracle ('07 version) to land him in the
right circumstances that will allow him to really contend. I think if
Ducati wants to sign Rossi for 2011 they have to make the bike work
for Hayden, so Rossi will think he can win on it. But the ultimate
result for Nick may well be that he gets to ride as Rossi's #2 in 2011
at Ducati, or replaces Spies or Edwards at Tech 3. With the four
aliens chasing three jobs, that doesn't leave Nick with a lot of good
options. Now if he can only hang on until 2012 and the new 1000s...
> Edwards: Gives me hope for old men. I've been a fan for a long time
> and finishing the championship as the first "human" makes him look
> very good. There's a nagging little voice in the back of my mind,
> though, that keeps asking if any besides the four "aliens" were really
> MotoGP calibre this year?
I did some looking at the alien business from a statistical standpoint
recently, and this is what I found. First, the average margin from 1st
to 5th in the races the last few years:
2006 - 13.16 seconds
2007 - 21.22 seconds
2008 - 23.17 seconds
2009 - 25.75 seconds
So while it continues to climb, it's seems like the switch to 800s has
made the most difference. And the switch to spec tires hasn't made the
racing any closer in this regard. One particular thing I noticed about
2009 is that this margin grew all year, with 5th place falling farther
and farther off as the year went on.
Then I looked at the average margin between each rider and the race
winner for everyone who raced in both '08 and '09, to see if the
aliens had pulled away from everyone, and this is what I found:
Melandri: 2008 - 57.18 seconds, 2009 - 45.32 -11.86
Lorenzo: 2008 - 14.26, 2009 - 4.29 -9.96
Elias: 2008 - 47.94, 2009 - 41.07 -6.87
de Angelis: 2008 - 42.88, 2009 - 36.88 -5.88
de Puniet: 2008 - 43.85, 2009 - 38.80 -5.04
Dovizioso: 2008 - 24.27, 2009 - 21.26 -3.01
Stoner: 2008 - 9.81, 2009 - 8.97 -0.83
Rossi: 2008 - 5.89, 2009 - 5.37 -0.52
Pedrosa: 2008 - 14.34, 2009 - 17.25; +2.92
Edwards: 2008 - 28.20, 2009 - 31.93 +3.73
Capirossi: 2008 - 35.03, 2009 - 40.16 +5.13
Hayden: 2008 - 23.20, 2009 - 34.52
+11.32
Toseland: 2008 - 35.87, 2009 - 48.89 +13.02
Vermeulen: 2008 - 30.50, 2009 - 46.51 +16.01
The numbers don't include DNFs, DNSs or races where the rider was
lapped. Some results are impacted by unusual results, like Pedrsa
finishing 48 seconds back at Losail and picking up his bike at Indy
and finishing instead of just taking a DNF. But what I see is what I
kind of thought I'd see, which is that the guys who should be closest
to the aliens based on past performances and who ran closest in 2008
have fallen off, while the guys farther back have actually gained
ground on the aliens. It's worth noting that both Stoner and Rossi
actually gained a little even though the both actually won fewer races
than they did in '08 (although Stoner also had all those races which
weren't included), Dovizioso gained overall going from a satellite
Honda to a factory Honda and from Michelins to Bridgestones (although
he contributed to the 1st-to-5th dropoff I mentioned, falling farther
and farther behind as the year wore on), the satellite Hondas dained
materially, this confirms Lorenzo's big move this year, Edwards
actually lost ground in a year that everyone thinks he stepped it up,
and Melandri gained 11 seconds getting off the Ducati while Hayden
lost 11 seconds getting on it. Also worth noting is that the bigger
guys and the superbike guys, which are pretty much the same guys, tend
to be at the bottom of the list. They also were the guys one would
figure would have been closest to the aliens, for the most part, which
is why the aliens made the jump.
I also looked at the race elapsed times in '08 and '09 in races where
weather didn't play a major role either year, and in those 10 races
the time went up 5 times and went down 5 times; eyeballing it, it
appeared that on average the races were very slightly faster, but not
materially. So the aliens weren't actually faster in '09 than the top
guys in '08. The average margin of victory went from 5.43 seconds to
5.11 seconds, not much of a change, so less close racing didn't make
the races slower overall.
Again, my conclusion is what I suspected - the group A aliens were
created by a falloff in the group B riders, but group A didn't get any
faster, nor did group C get any slower overall. What is discouraging
is that there might not be a great deal of hope than these guys will
get faster in 2010, because their situations don't appear to have
changed that much or they are gone altogether, and the replacements
are mostly a bunch of kids from 250, by all appearances the second
round of KR's "mediocre 250 riders". So the best hopes are probably
Hayden, if he and Ducati can make that bike work, Melandri, on the
best bike for him since the 990s, Spies, if the satellite Yamaha is
good enough and he doesn't suffer too much with lack of testing and
practice, Dovizioso, if he works better with his new team, and maybe
Simoncelli, if his size hurts him less on an 800 than it did on a 250.
I see no reason to think Edwards will get any closer.
Mark N
> Entertaining post. Some comments...
>
> > Racer of the Year - Jorge Lorenzo. ...
>
> I disagree with that. He had his moments, but he also had an utterly
> embarassing brainfreeze, and that when it really mattered and the
> pressure was on. It was such a monumental mistake that I can not agree
> with him being racer of the year...
Well, my choice was based on him actually being able to challenge
Rossi on a consistent basis and making the year much more interesting.
If he hadn't stepped it up GP would have been pretty dull this year.
And I think your judgment of him is a little harse, given his age and
experience level.
> > ... Something the Rossi faithful thought
> > they'd never see, a guy challenging and actually beating the GOAT ...
>
> Aren't we forgetting Stoner and Hayden there...? Geez, even Elias has
> beaten Rossi one on one. :-)
If you'd done a little less editing you would note that I said on the
same bike and tires, which really hasn't happened to this degree,
Gibernau in '03 being the closest to it. And Lorenzo was very
consistent in exhibiting the same pace as Rossi, which we haven't seen
before unless Rossi had some notable machine deficiency.
> > Runnerup - Valentino Rossi. Really only because he won his 7th
> > championship ...
>
> "Only"...? Kinda harsh eh? Especially considering the same landmark in
> a nationa series turns Mladin into a legend and one of the best ever
> etc... You gotta be a tad more consistent with the standards you
> use. :-)
Mladin hasn't exactly had the table set for him like Rossi, has he?
Again, Rossi had a very underwhelming championship for him, only six
wins and 306 points over 17 races, and he equalled his 2004 high in
race crash DNFs, and would have exceeded it had he not been able to
continue at Donington. I just don't think you call him the rider of
the year this year, unless you're a chronic Rossiphile who would call
him that every year.
> > Chump of the Year - Alvaro Bautista. ...
>
> Sure, but then you'd also have to throw in Simoncelli as runner up.
Maybe fair, but a distant one to me. Simoncelli only looked bad this
year based on his '08 season, when his early performances got him a
top Aprilia, and he won the championship with it. But before that he
hadn't done all that much and wasn't being rewarded like The Next Big
Thing, I don't think. Bautista was basically crowned in 2006 (when
Michael Scott rated him as one of the top ten riders in GP, something
he didn't give 250 champ Lorenzo) and the expectation was that he'd be
the next Spanish 250 champion, following in the footsteps of Pedrosa
and Lorenzo, and he was given all the tools to do that. But it hasn't
happened, and this year's failure was especially acute.
> > Chump(s) of the Year - Haga, Fabrizio and Ducati Corse.
>
> I don't know, if they are such chumps than Spies' triumph is
> diminished.
I don't think so, given the hole Spies was in early on, especially to
the degree it wasn't his fault. Spies finishing 2nd and winning as
many or more races than Haga would have been huge anyway. But Haga
really blew it, as I see it, he had no excuse. And he did have to be
beaten, it's not like he just laid down or had it taken away with a
series of DNFs. In the end Spies overcame some very tough odds to win
the championship, odds that were also stacked very much in Haga's
favor.
pablo
>
> Well, my choice was based on him actually being able to challenge
> Rossi on a consistent basis and making the year much more interesting.
I think the year was interesting because everybody had up and downs
and you never quite new who'r run away with forst and who'd settle for
points. Stoner would have been up there if he hadn't missed races due
to medical. To me Stoner showed he is stronger than Lorenzo when
healthy. He seems the only one truly able to challenge Rossi one on
one consistently for now. Lorenzo makes too many mistakes. Yeah he is
young. So was Rossi when he started to dominate this show.
> > > ... Something the Rossi faithful thought
> > > they'd never see, a guy challenging and actually beating the GOAT ...
>
> > Aren't we forgetting Stoner and Hayden there...? Geez, even Elias has
> > beaten Rossi one on one. :-)
>
> If you'd done a little less editing you would note that I said on the
> same bike and tires, which really hasn't happened to this degree...
I'll give you that. But hey, appying that logic, doesn't that make
Mladin look far more human than you say below? I mean, in comes a
youngster into his team and actually *beats* him. You try to say the
fact that Lorenzo came somewhat close makes Rossi look weaker, yet you
do not seem to allow for the same with your local hero Mat M even
though he acutally got beat by his younger team mate. Mind you, I am
not attacking Mladin, he is a damn fine rider, and there is no shame
in losing to a huge talent like Spies. Just like there is no shame in
losing to Stoner or Lorenzo, who can both be amazingly fast and
aggressive (I don't list Pedrosa because he is not a good infighter).
> Gibernau in '03 being the closest to it.
Wow. Sete. Blast from the past. Wheat a forgettable comeback eh? I am
not sure if it ranks up there with the non-stories of the year. His
model wife leaves him (chica, call me) and so does the bike racing
muse...
> ... And Lorenzo was very
> consistent in exhibiting the same pace as Rossi, which we haven't seen
> before unless Rossi had some notable machine deficiency.
He sure tried to follow the pace set by the established guy, and
consequently highsided his bike more often than anyone else and showed
us that electronics aren't perfect and 800s can still nicely spit you
off more often than anyone else. Yeah, I think he tried too hard, too
often, without accurately establishing his own limits.
> > "Only"...? Kinda harsh eh? Especially considering the same landmark in
> > a nationa series turns Mladin into a legend and one of the best ever
> > etc... You gotta be a tad more consistent with the standards you
> > use. :-)
>
> Mladin hasn't exactly had the table set for him like Rossi, has he?
Dude, The Suzuki team is the only one that comes close to a factory
team in AMA these days. And look what happened when he had a young
talented team mate. he actualy lost (unlike Rossi). So I'd say Mladin
had the tablke set, but one year Spies ate his turkey. :-)
> Again, Rossi had a very underwhelming championship for him, only six
> wins and 306 points over 17 races, and he equalled his 2004 high in
> race crash DNFs ...
Yeah yeah. He won it. With 2 races to go. Seems comfortable enough to
me. No one remembers that stuff after just a few years. Did the other
greats always win the title mid season and win every race? Heaven help
us. That should never be a benchmark.
> > > Chump of the Year - Alvaro Bautista. ...
>
> > Sure, but then you'd also have to throw in Simoncelli as runner up.
>
> Maybe fair, but a distant one to me. Simoncelli only looked bad this
> year based on his '08 season, when his early performances got him a
> top Aprilia, and he won the championship with it. But before that he
> hadn't done all that much and wasn't being rewarded like The Next Big
> Thing, I don't think. Bautista was basically crowned in 2006 (when
> Michael Scott rated him as one of the top ten riders in GP, something
> he didn't give 250 champ Lorenzo) and the expectation was that he'd be
> the next Spanish 250 champion, following in the footsteps of Pedrosa
> and Lorenzo, and he was given all the tools to do that. But it hasn't
> happened, and this year's failure was especially acute.
I agree - more worrisome is that he is blaiming everybody and their
dog but oddly enough doesn't look in the mirror at the times when he
utterly threw it away all by himself. He doesn't seem to have learned
a lot. But I think Simoncelli, as the champ, ought to have looked less
hot headed and more mature.
> > > Chump(s) of the Year - Haga, Fabrizio and Ducati Corse.
>
> > I don't know, if they are such chumps than Spies' triumph is
> > diminished.
>
> I don't think so, given the hole Spies was in early on, especially to
> the degree it wasn't his fault. Spies finishing 2nd and winning as
> many or more races than Haga would have been huge anyway. But Haga
> really blew it, as I see it, he had no excuse. And he did have to be
> beaten, it's not like he just laid down or had it taken away with a
> series of DNFs. In the end Spies overcame some very tough odds to win
> the championship, odds that were also stacked very much in Haga's
> favor.
Yes, but that doesn't make Haga a chump. Do I agree he froze in the
end? Heck yes. But did he have a pretty good reason and put up a very
good challenge? Heck yes, and it is because of the fact that Haga was
pretty damn good until the very end that Spies' accomplishment is
truly remarkable.
pablo
wrote:
You are not. But what big sponsor does Kallio bring?
It is kinda disappointing to see Elias go, but while he is spectacular
he is not consistent, and perhaps he is not methodical enough to get
the bike as right as possible as often as he should? He has been there
for some time now, delivering on the occasional flash of brilliance,
but never putting a streak together.
pablo
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:12:16 -0800 (PST), pablo
>
> <pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
> >Behind that, though, I'd say that mighty Honda's humble position
> >in MotoGP is a big surprise and argualy the biggest story. The fact
> >they just can't get out of their slump is amazing.
>
> Agreed. They need to blow some money on a rider how can get them up
> there, because it looks like Dani isn't really it. Dani comes from a
> long line of riders (Cadalora, Biaggi, etc) who are uncatchable when
> everything is perfect, but can't challenge when it isn't.
Great minds think alike. :-) I said before this year started that I do
not believe Pedrosa will get them there. Like you say, Pedrosa is
great when he (a) gets a break and (b) he has a great bike that is
performing perfectly. But I question his ability to guide Honda in the
right direction. Honda Repsol - give Ben Spies a call sometime in
2010. Honda needs to gamble. It is just plain stupid that with their
budget they continue to perform in this plateau, and the reason is
that their riders never graduated beyond follower status. They are not
natural team leaders.
...pablo
sturd
> As Soichiro famously hated 2-strokes, it must be a fairly bitter-sweet
> celebration he's having :-)
He'd be dancing on *their* grave if he wasn't still
dead.
Dave
<julia...@voidstar.com> wrote:
>Dave <n...@home.com> Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:55:52
>>I would say the biggest non-story of the year for WSBK was the BSB
>>invasion.
>
>Yup. Rea, Haslam, Byrne, Sykes, Crutchlow, Laverty didn't do very well,
>did they.
>
>Oh. Wait.
Note I said WSBK, not WSS. How many World SUPERBIKE races did
Crutchlow and Laverty win?
Oh. Wait.
Sykes was a total bust, and not because of Spies. I do think he's a
better rider than he showed but his season was a complete waste.
Funny that you would even include him in your list of people you feel
did well this year.
Byrne occasionally showed some speed, for a couple laps. Then he went
backwards. You can complain all you want about the bike but people
here were predicting wins from tghe BSB champion.
Haslam showed well, as did the new Stiggy team. I acknowledged that.
Rea started slow and gained real speed over the season just as he did
in WSS. I also said he'll be a big factor in COMING YEARS.
As for THIS YEAR. Given all the hype of all the new riders moving
into WSBK the results were very dissappointing. And I don't say that
just because of Spies' domination. I was truly hoping the predictions
of multiple race winners and packs of riders dicing for the wins would
come true. But it didn't.
Note, I don't think it would have been any better had there been an
AMA invasion either. Beyond Spies and Mladin none of the regulars
stand out any more than those BSB stars do.
Dave
<pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
>>
>> Mladin hasn't exactly had the table set for him like Rossi, has he?
>
>Dude, The Suzuki team is the only one that comes close to a factory
>team in AMA these days. And look what happened when he had a young
>talented team mate. he actualy lost (unlike Rossi). So I'd say Mladin
>had the tablke set, but one year Spies ate his turkey. :-)
Did he? Really? Personally I don't think Mladin really lost anything
at all to Spies. Ben won his first in '06 and Mat conceded that he
had been getting lazy due to the lack of competition and Ben caught
him off guard. That was a legitimate case of Ben simply beating Mat.
In the two years that followed Mat openly stated that he was only
concerned with winning races and didn't care about the championship.
Both years that win-or-bin attitude cost him a couple DNF or low
finishes which was just enough for Ben to squeak out the championship.
However, Mat was completely up front about his goals and both years
Ben won the championship but Mat won the most races. I think both
riders met their goals and it's not really fair when people say Ben
whipped it up on Mat for the last three years.
Mat had the luxury that his main competition was his teammate, so he
didn't have to worrry about winning the championship for Suzuki.
Riding like he did those last two years gave Suzuki the best possible
outcome and actually helped Ben's career as well, whether he would
admit that or not.
pablo
>
> Mat had the luxury that his main competition was his teammate, so he
> didn't have to worrry about winning the championship for Suzuki.
> Riding like he did those last two years gave Suzuki the best possible
> outcome and actually helped Ben's career as well, whether he would
> admit that or not.
I think that is hogwash, and if Mat ever said he didn't want to win
championships he should not be on the Suzukie payroll. Mat's full of
it if he ever said it. He got beat and that was that, and it's no
disgrace.
Besides, like I said, the argument *would* cut *exactly* the same way
for Rossi. But only *if* he had lost a championship to his teammate.
Which may yet happen, but not yet.
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> Well, my choice was based on him actually being able to challenge
>> Rossi on a consistent basis and making the year much more interesting.
>
> I think the year was interesting because everybody had up and downs
> and you never quite new who'r run away with forst and who'd settle for
> points. Stoner would have been up there if he hadn't missed races due
> to medical. To me Stoner showed he is stronger than Lorenzo when
> healthy. He seems the only one truly able to challenge Rossi one on
> one consistently for now.
But this year Stoner made the questions about his mental toughness even
greater, and also his physical toughness. Last year the notion was that
as soon as the championship became a real fight he collapsed, broken by
Rossi at Laguna and then showed it at Brno and Misano; he didn't start
winning again until the championship was over. Kind of harsh, I thought.
But this year he started well, and then after the 5th race at Mugello,
where he took over the points lead, he broke again, first his mystery
illness, then his leave of absence. So he returns once the championship
is beyond reach, when there isn't that sort of pressure, and suddenly
he's back on form and out front. And in retrospect it's clear that he
never really was under championship pressure in '07, he just rode away
with that one on superior electronics, straight-line speed and Bridgestones.
So I think Stoner definitely has something to prove yet, and he'll be
under severe pressure next year, when his job is in jeopardy and
Marlboro chases Rossi, when Repsol chases Lorenzo, and with Yamaha
trying to keep both but with Spies warming in the bullpen. And everyone
will be waiting for him to break again.
> Lorenzo makes too many mistakes. Yeah he is
> young. So was Rossi when he started to dominate this show.
But did Rossi have a Rossi to overcome? No, he was the top rider on the
top factory pretty much from the start, with Doohan gone, Criville
melting down after his championship, Roberts destined to fade away on
the POS Suzuki. Different world.
>> If you'd done a little less editing you would note that I said on the
>> same bike and tires, which really hasn't happened to this degree...
>
> I'll give you that. But hey, appying that logic, doesn't that make
> Mladin look far more human than you say below? I mean, in comes a
> youngster into his team and actually *beats* him. You try to say the
> fact that Lorenzo came somewhat close makes Rossi look weaker, yet you
> do not seem to allow for the same with your local hero Mat M even
> though he acutally got beat by his younger team mate. Mind you, I am
> not attacking Mladin, he is a damn fine rider, and there is no shame
> in losing to a huge talent like Spies. Just like there is no shame in
> losing to Stoner or Lorenzo, who can both be amazingly fast and
> aggressive (I don't list Pedrosa because he is not a good infighter).
Really the difference is that Rossi is supposed to be the GOAT and is
age 30, which has historically been where the greats and near-greats
have been at the peak of their powers. The way I look at it, his season
says one of three things - the 800s and the way one has to ride them put
him at a disadvantage against more recent grads from 125/250 who are
also smaller and lighter, he just had an off-song season, or he really
isn't the best-ever, maybe not even one of the 3 or 4 best, maybe not
the best of his contemporaries. I simply don't believe in the notion
that Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa constitute an incredible collection of
talent coming up together, not only good enough to directly challenge
the best rider ever (and while he's on the best bike) but to do so while
operating at a size disadvantage. Just don't buy it.
>> ... And Lorenzo was very
>> consistent in exhibiting the same pace as Rossi, which we haven't seen
>> before unless Rossi had some notable machine deficiency.
>
> He sure tried to follow the pace set by the established guy, and
> consequently highsided his bike more often than anyone else and showed
> us that electronics aren't perfect and 800s can still nicely spit you
> off more often than anyone else. Yeah, I think he tried too hard, too
> often, without accurately establishing his own limits.
I don't remember him highsiding that much. I remember the Jerez and Brno
crashes as front-end lowsides, Donington was on the white line under
braking, and PI was the start where he plowed into Hayden. Jerez was
kind of silly, I suppose, but it was Brno that seemed the one big error,
seeming to make a very bad decision there. On the other hand, Rossi
crashed twice chasing Lorenzo, right?
>> Mladin hasn't exactly had the table set for him like Rossi, has he?
>
> Dude, The Suzuki team is the only one that comes close to a factory
> team in AMA these days. And look what happened when he had a young
> talented team mate. he actualy lost (unlike Rossi). So I'd say Mladin
> had the tablke set, but one year Spies ate his turkey. :-)
So when he won his first three championships in 99-01 Yosh was the only
real factory team? You think he had the best bike then? How about in
2004? Even when he was racing Spies he was winning more often than
losing, and he was creaming everyone else on the grid, including the 3rd
Yosh rider. Of course I also think the year Spies had elevates Mladin,
shows how good Mladin really has been. And one must note than when Spies
first beat Mladin in '06 he'd been racing one Dunlops and GSX-R1000s in
various forms for four years, with his Yosh team for three, on a Yosh SB
for two (including in FX in '03). It's not like he just walked in and
kicked Mat's ass.
>> Again, Rossi had a very underwhelming championship for him, only six
>> wins and 306 points over 17 races, and he equalled his 2004 high in
>> race crash DNFs ...
>
> Yeah yeah. He won it. With 2 races to go. Seems comfortable enough to
> me. No one remembers that stuff after just a few years. Did the other
> greats always win the title mid season and win every race? Heaven help
> us. That should never be a benchmark.
For my Rider of the Year award it is...
>>>> Chump(s) of the Year - Haga, Fabrizio and Ducati Corse.
>>> I don't know, if they are such chumps than Spies' triumph is
>>> diminished.
>> I don't think so, given the hole Spies was in early on, especially to
>> the degree it wasn't his fault. Spies finishing 2nd and winning as
>> many or more races than Haga would have been huge anyway. But Haga
>> really blew it, as I see it, he had no excuse. And he did have to be
>> beaten, it's not like he just laid down or had it taken away with a
>> series of DNFs. In the end Spies overcame some very tough odds to win
>> the championship, odds that were also stacked very much in Haga's
>> favor.
>
> Yes, but that doesn't make Haga a chump. Do I agree he froze in the
> end? Heck yes. But did he have a pretty good reason and put up a very
> good challenge? Heck yes, and it is because of the fact that Haga was
> pretty damn good until the very end that Spies' accomplishment is
> truly remarkable.
The way I look at it is this. After nine races, after the first race at
Monza, he'd won four times and had been second in the other five, and
held a 79-point lead over Spies. He hits a chicken and DNFs, but then
comes back with a double at Kyalami, Fabrizio finishes 2nd twice, Spies
suffers a mechanical for the 2nd time in two rounds, and his lead
reaches 88 points over Spies, who is also behind Fabrizio. And the
obscene weight balancing rule still has done nothing to his bike, even
though it's totally obvious that the Ducati is superior to the fours. So
he wins only two more races the rest of the year, has three crash DNFs,
and manages to lose the championship - even with getting injured at the
perfect time, with only one round in nearly two months, and with his
teammate's mugging of Spies meaning he barely lost points at that round.
I mean, you can't possibly be in a better position than to be the lead
rider for Ducati Corse in WSB and nearly halfway through the year have a
points lead notably bigger than the biggest ever overcome in series
history. You are fucking golden. And yet...
Mark N
>
> I think you missed one.
>
> Manufacturer of the year: Yamaha
Didn't miss it. Though about it and rejected the idea, based on what
they did to racing over here by breaking with the other factories last
year and backing DMG's hard-line play. Without that I think some notable
amount of what went down changes, and the result would have been better.
Including at least the possibility of an alternative series. So I don't
think great success elsewhere is enough to overcome contributing to the
destruction of one of the major championships.
Dave
>Time to hand out this year's Markie awards, so with no further ado...
These two items seem a bit inconsistent, no?...
>Chump(s) of the Year - Haga [beaten by Spies]
>
>Racer of the Year - Mat Mladin ... Spies showed everyone how good
>Mladin really has been
Haga may have tossed away a huge lead and lost the championship, but
by all measures he still had a very good year and finished just a few
points behind Ben. If Spies is the measure, then you could also say
"Spies showed everyone how good Haga really has been"
Dave
<pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
>On Nov 19, 7:17�pm, Dave <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mat had the luxury that his main competition was his teammate, so he
>> didn't have to worrry about winning the championship for Suzuki.
>> Riding like he did those last two years gave Suzuki the best possible
>> outcome and actually helped Ben's career as well, whether he would
>> admit that or not.
>
>I think that is hogwash, and if Mat ever said he didn't want to win
>championships he should not be on the Suzukie payroll. Mat's full of
>it if he ever said it. He got beat and that was that, and it's no
>disgrace.
"if he ever said it"? Did you not watch a single race or listen to a
single interview over those two years? Greg White made a point of
asking him about that at every race and Mladin held the same line from
pre-season to the final race.
Mat beat Ben for total race wins, which is what he wanted to do.
Ben beat Mat for total points, which is what he wanted to do.
Suzuki won on all counts.
Mark N
> These two items seem a bit inconsistent, no?...
>
>> Chump(s) of the Year - Haga [beaten by Spies]
>>
>> Racer of the Year - Mat Mladin ... Spies showed everyone how good
>> Mladin really has been
>
> Haga may have tossed away a huge lead and lost the championship, but
> by all measures he still had a very good year and finished just a few
> points behind Ben. If Spies is the measure, then you could also say
> "Spies showed everyone how good Haga really has been"
I don't think so, not at all. Basically Spies and Mladin battled to a
draw in the AMA, Ben won more championships head-to-head but Mat won
more races, and in the one totally straight-up season they had, 2007,
Spies won by only one point, after trailing in the last race until Mat
reportedly spun a tire on the rim, and Mat won a record 12 race that
year to Ben's 7. And they were on the same bike, same tires, racing on
tracks they both knew, on machines they both knew, for people they knew.
Even Steven.
In WSB Ben was on a bike that I think was inferior and that he was new
to, and was new to almost all the tracks he raced on. [In the one round
where he knew the track, Miller, he beat Haga in the two races by a
combined margin of almost 50 seconds.] Haga had been racing these tracks
for years, and although he was also new to his team, he'd ridden a
Ducati successfully before, and had been racing on Pirellis for years.
And yet he not only lost the championship, after having a huge lead, he
also won fewer races than Ben, 14 to 8, and he also had fewer no-points
(or almost) finishes than Ben, 4 to 6 (but had more race crash DNFs, 3
to 2).
So I don't think the situations are similar at all, I think Haga had a
huge advantage this year, played it to an 88-point lead, and then gave
it all away. Don't think we've seen Mladin do quite the same thing. I
think it would have been similar to Spies racing for, say, American
Honda the last several years and then getting hired by Yosh last year to
replace a retired Mladin, getting the best seat in the paddock, and at
the same time Haga arriving in the AMA racing for Honda, and not only
beating Ben for the championship but winning almost twice as many races.
I can't even imagine that happening; look at how Hodgson has been
clobbered here under those circumstances.
But I do think Spies has validated Mladin, because if a mid-30s Mladin
could race Spies to a draw, what might he have done in the world
championships 8-10 years ago? The better Spies does, the better Mat
looks in retrospect. Or, putting it another way, the more he looks like
what I've been telling everyone he was for the last decade...
Champ
<menusbau...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> ... And Lorenzo was very
>>> consistent in exhibiting the same pace as Rossi, which we haven't seen
>>> before unless Rossi had some notable machine deficiency.
>> He sure tried to follow the pace set by the established guy, and
>> consequently highsided his bike more often than anyone else
>I don't remember him highsiding that much. I remember the Jerez and Brno
> crashes as front-end lowsides ...
Exactly. Last year was Lorenzon's highside year, chasing the rear.
This year was his low-side year, chasing the front.
Next year could be tough for everyone else :-)
Julian Bond
>The better Spies does, the better Mat looks in retrospect.
And the more cynical his decisions to stay in AMA appear. In the end, he
chose to stay as a part time racer with long holidays and a huge pay
packet. Well it's a choice and one many of us would make.
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Time for a nice cup of tea and a biscuit
Julian Bond
>Haga may have tossed away a huge lead and lost the championship, but
>by all measures he still had a very good year and finished just a few
>points behind Ben. If Spies is the measure, then you could also say
>"Spies showed everyone how good Haga really has been"
+1 to that. I think it's easy to underestimate just how much Haga got
hurt in that Coppice crash at Donington. He really shouldn't have been
at Brno. We all kind of knew it would happen but I can't take anything
away from Haga except that a very close second seems to be his natural
position.
I think the real question of the season was what the hell happened to
Ducati Corse in Portimao. The team seemed to spend most of the weekend
messing about, unable to find any sort of setup. And then we get The
Godfather hug and Tardozzi resigning. Almost like it wasn't Haga that
threw away the championship and lost but the team and specifically
Tardozzi.
Julian Bond
>As for THIS YEAR. Given all the hype of all the new riders moving
>into WSBK the results were very dissappointing. And I don't say that
>just because of Spies' domination. I was truly hoping the predictions
>of multiple race winners and packs of riders dicing for the wins would
>come true. But it didn't.
True dat. But it was still good wasn't it? On one level it was a
whitewash, on another we had good races every single weekend with plenty
of drama.
On the previous year's form, Neukichner, Checa, Kiyo should have been up
there but all faded for different reasons. Nakano might have been up
with Biaggi but was riding hurt most the season. Byrne should have been
more competitive but the team had no money. At all. And so on.
If you want to pick one moment when Haga lost the championship, I think
it was trying to hold the line with Rea inside him. All he had to do was
run it a little bit wide and he might even have retaken the place at the
next corner. But that DNF made way more difference than any Fabrizio
team orders.
Champ
<julia...@voidstar.com> wrote:
>True dat.
Someone else who's been watching The Wire :-)
Julian Bond
>On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:48:18 +0000, Julian Bond
><julia...@voidstar.com> wrote:
>
>>True dat.
>
>Someone else who's been watching The Wire :-)
Mos Def!
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Some Assembly Required
DaveW
>On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:48:18 +0000, Julian Bond
><julia...@voidstar.com> wrote:
>
>>True dat.
>
>Someone else who's been watching The Wire :-)
A man got ta have a code.
My all-time favorite show. This was well worth the ten minutes:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/16/the-hundred-greatest-quot_n_359784.html
Mark N
> And the more cynical his decisions to stay in AMA appear. In the end, he
> chose to stay as a part time racer with long holidays and a huge pay
> packet. Well it's a choice and one many of us would make.
-Yawn- The same old story - for racers in America either they're just
not good enough or they're too lazy and greedy. There's been nothing
part time about racing in AMA SB, with the teams historically testing
more than the teams in WSB and having nearly as many race weekends.
They don't fly as far between races some of the time, that's about it.
So was Mat supposed to go off to WSB just because they hang the name
"World" on it, even of the bikes aren't any better or sometimes as
good, even if the competition isn't as strong, even if the salaries
suck? Over the last 10-15 years or so there hasn't been any huge
reason to leave a good ride to go to WSB, especially if you don't have
a Ducati waiting for you. And there really wasn't any way to get into
MotoGP, that was basically a closed shop. So you do what you can, you
race where the people who pay you actually want you, and pay
accordingly, and you leave it at that.
And of course one shouldn't ever mention the blame that goes to the
people doing the hiring "over there" and their mistakes. I'm amazed
that Denning even shows his face after taking a pass on Spies last
year, and now apparently has decided Bautista is a better
prospect....
Julian Bond
>-Yawn- The same old story - for racers in America either they're just
>not good enough or they're too lazy and greedy.
Or as Hodgson put it.
"I think Mat Mladin has been on a $2m salary for the last 10 years and
you only race about a dozen times a year. They don't do much testing so
it's like you're a part-time racer really. It's been the best kept
secret and Mladin has been laughing the whole time but that will all
have changed now [that DMG has turned a national racing series into a
club meeting]"
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Some Assembly Required
pablo
> Mark N <menusb...@earthlink.net> Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:45:41
>
> >-Yawn- The same old story - for racers in America either they're just
> >not good enough or they're too lazy and greedy.
>
> Or as Hodgson put it.
>
> "I think Mat Mladin has been on a $2m salary for the last 10 years and
> you only race about a dozen times a year. They don't do much testing so
> it's like you're a part-time racer really. It's been the best kept
> secret and Mladin has been laughing the whole time but that will all
> have changed now [that DMG has turned a national racing series into a
> club meeting]"
>
> --
> Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 +44 (0)192 0412 433
When a racer supposedly says that he is not in it for the championship
(check this thread) and people actually buy into it, hey, it tell you
a lot... By Mladin's statements (in this thread) his ambition died
several years ago. Not even anywhere near contention for GOAT then...
Mark N
> Or as Hodgson put it.
>
> "I think Mat Mladin has been on a $2m salary for the last 10 years and
> you only race about a dozen times a year. They don't do much testing so
> it's like you're a part-time racer really. It's been the best kept
> secret and Mladin has been laughing the whole time but that will all
> have changed now [that DMG has turned a national racing series into a
> club meeting]"
Which of course is total bullshit, Hodgson-style. You go back to the
'90s and I seriously doubt that anyone in the AMA made over $1M a
year; $500-1M was a top salary then, even in WSB during its best days.
And how many rounds have they been running in WSB over the last
decade? I count "only a dozen" in 2006 and 2005, and 11 in 2004. I
like Neil, but the guy is a classic bullshit artist, one moment saying
just what you want to hear, the next exaggerating embarrassingly...
pablo
What clearly is total bullshit is to apply the blatant double standard
for Rossi and Mladin you are using. I mean, Rossi gets remotely
halfways challenged by his teammate for a few weeks, and then still
wins, yet it means it signals weakness. Mladin gets loses the
championship to his younger teammate, yet he is still among the GOATs.
Dude, that is the most ludicrous double standard. Stick to one side or
the other, they're both defensible argumkents if that is your
opinion... just don't claim BOTH.
Mark N
> What clearly is total bullshit is to apply the blatant double standard
> for Rossi and Mladin you are using. I mean, Rossi gets remotely
> halfways challenged by his teammate for a few weeks, and then still
> wins, yet it means it signals weakness. Mladin gets loses the
> championship to his younger teammate, yet he is still among the GOATs.
> Dude, that is the most ludicrous double standard. Stick to one side or
> the other, they're both defensible argumkents if that is your
> opinion... just don't claim BOTH
??? Remind me where I claimed that. I think I called himthe rider of
the decade in the AMA, which is pretty damned hard to contest, but
nothing beyond that.
Dave
<pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
>When a racer supposedly says that he is not in it for the championship
>(check this thread) and people actually buy into it, hey, it tell you
>a lot... By Mladin's statements (in this thread) his ambition died
>several years ago. Not even anywhere near contention for GOAT then...
Are you living in a state of denial or something? Do you have some
romantic notions about racers and racing and when something clashes
with that you bury your head in the sand or try to discredit it?
There is no "supposedly" about it and Mladin's statements are out
there for all to see, not just paraphrased by me "in this thread".
Pull your head out, Pablo.
pablo
It has truly nothing to do with that. The facts I am trying to
reconcile here are as follows
(1) I have a lot of respect for Mladin
(2) I do not follow AMA other than extremely spottily, sorry (I know
that having lived in the USA for over 10 years I should, but I can't
get into it more than I can into baseball and american football,
sorry, it just hasnt't happened)
(3) any racer that claims he didn't want to win a championship is so
burstingly full of sh*t he should be a cheap port-a-potty...
I don't need to pull my head out of nowhere. AMA is a national
championship with exactly the same local significance of BSB or the
Spanish or other championships, sorry, no offense intended, it's what
it is. And I know racers and they want to win champsionships if they
are any good, and they will make excuses if the don't, and..
(4) because of (2) I don't follow or know about Mladin's statements
you attribute to him... I am not saying you are not telling the truth,
I am just saying if that is what Mladin says he is full of (3)
Mark N
> It has truly nothing to do with that. The facts I am trying to
> reconcile here are as follows
>
> (1) I have a lot of respect for Mladin
>
> (2) I do not follow AMA other than extremely spottily, sorry (I know
> that having lived in the USA for over 10 years I should, but I can't
> get into it more than I can into baseball and american football,
> sorry, it just hasnt't happened)
You forgot to mention that, as you said a number of years ago, you
wouldn't watch the AMA at all because the tracks simply weren't safe
enough, and you wouldn't watch people risking their health and lives
that way. Kind of hard to get into it with that attitude...
> (3) any racer that claims he didn't want to win a championship is so
> burstingly full of sh*t he should be a cheap port-a-potty...
> (4) because of (2) I don't follow or know about Mladin's statements
> you attribute to him... I am not saying you are not telling the truth,
> I am just saying if that is what Mladin says he is full of (3)
What Mat said, and repeatedly, is that he didn't give a shit about
championships, he'd already won six of them and they just didn't matter
that much to him at that point, what he wanted to do was win races, to
beat Spies straight up on the track. He said that before the 2007 season
and he was still saying it at the end of the 2008 season.
Now, if you look at his AMA career, that makes a lot of sense. To a
great extent he won the 99-01 championships by doing what Spies did in
06-08, win when it presented itself, finish as high as possible when he
didn't, and never crash. That's in part due to the AMA points system,
which makes DNF a near-death experience (as Mat discovered in '97, when
he suffered the usual Ducati failure at Daytona), and in part due to
Mat's underdog Suzuki, which really never was the best machine as a 750.
So he won those championships strategically.
But he didn't have that problem on the 1000, and I think he got kind of
bored mostly kicking everyone's asses 03-05 - he won 29 of 53 races
those years, and 11 of 17 in '06. And he'd already doubled the record
for SB championships by then, and was blowing out the wins of the guy in
2nd there, Duhamel. So when Spies came along his challenge was the
races, beating a guy head-to-head on the same equipment. I'm sure he
also wanted to win the championships, he did say you win races and the
championship takes care of itself.
As Dave said, he was cruising at the start of the '06 season as was
caught napping by Spies. In '07 he really did better than Spies, but Ben
always finished at least 2nd and Mat didn't, which ended up being the
difference in the end, that and whatever happened to Mat while leading
the last race at Laguna (one of his worst tracks). In '08 it was close
to the same, his mistake costs him more than Ben's did, but the whole
thing got spoiled by DMG vindictive DQs at VIR.
Anyway, I think it was the challenge of racing Spies that kept Mat
motivated late in his career, and you don't get motivation like that
from playing the points game. I was in the winner's circle after one of
the races at Sears last year, and up close you could see both those guys
left it all out on the track, they were both pretty much completely
drained. For both of them it was all about beating each other, but Ben
needed those championships more than Mat, in order to further his career
(and probably fill his bank account), so he played it a bit more
carefully at times.
Julian Bond
Well Hodgson is on his way back to the UK so he can finally tell it like
he sees it, rather than toeing the corporate line to avoid upsetting
anyone. And it's not as if he's the first to say these things. And I bet
it's as much a comment on the 2010 schedule as on the previous ten (9
races, no Laguna or Utah? [1]). And then he spent several years right in
the middle of the circus. You think he didn't talk to Mladin over a beer
occasionally? Against all that he's probably also somewhat bitter and
twisted since he's been messed about by everyone ever since his WSB
championship and has just spent a year trying to get over having his arm
nearly ripped off.
He also had some choice words to say about the contrast between an AMA
race meeting and a BSB meeting. You know, stuff like crowds at the race
track, actual corporate hospitality, all day live TV, a professionally
run organization that doesn't make the rules up on the fly, plenty of
evidence of money in the paddock (although it's never enough and right
now it's hard, like everywhere).
[1] No AMA race on the new M/C track at Indianapolis. Why is that?
sturd
> [1] No AMA race on the new M/C track at Indianapolis. Why is that?
Because the management at IMS is smart enough to not
get involved in club racing.
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
Dave
<pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
>It has truly nothing to do with that. The facts I am trying to
>reconcile here are as follows
[see Mark's reply for a good summary of Mat's position those years]
And the only point I was trying to make is... if the final standings
are the only thing you've really paid attention to during Ben's
championship seasons in the U.S., you might be inclined to say that
Mat got well and truly beaten those last few years. I think that's an
unfair assessment. Both riders accomplished their goals during that
time and aside from the final points tally, you could make a case that
Mat was the better rider.
BTW, I believe that if Ben had been on a different make of motorcycle
in the AMA Mat would have ridden for the title those years. He would
have done that for Suzuki and the sponsors. That's what I meant by
Mat having the luxury of knowing his only competition was his teammate
and that the title was safe in one of their hands. If Ben were on
another make, I'm not so sure he would have won three titles in a row.
Mark N
> Well Hodgson is on his way back to the UK so he can finally tell it like
> he sees it, rather than toeing the corporate line to avoid upsetting
> anyone.
Yeah, it's not even possible that he'd continue to say what people want
to hear. You know, like how great things are in BSB compared to the AMA,
just what fans like you want to hear...
> He also had some choice words to say about the contrast between an AMA
> race meeting and a BSB meeting. You know, stuff like crowds at the race
> track, actual corporate hospitality, all day live TV, a professionally
> run organization that doesn't make the rules up on the fly, plenty of
> evidence of money in the paddock (although it's never enough and right
> now it's hard, like everywhere).
Funny how that never has translated to real money landing in the pockets
of the riders. And funny how it hasn't translated to top-quality riders
in the UK. [1] And how many times has BSB changed its SB rules since
Hodgson left?
> [1] No AMA race on the new M/C track at Indianapolis. Why is that?
No WSB rounds at Brands, Silverstone, maybe even Donington - why is
that? If there were as many Americans in WSB as there are Brits, I'd
guarantee you there's be at least two very stable WSB rounds run in
America.
[1] How have imported former champions Lavilla and Kiyonari been doing
in WSB?
pablo
> What Mat said, and repeatedly, is that he didn't give a shit about
> championships, he'd already won six of them and they just didn't matter
> that much to him at that point, what he wanted to do was win races, to
> beat Spies straight up on the track. He said that before the 2007 season
> and he was still saying it at the end of the 2008 season.
And I do not buy it. Spies beat Mat the way he wanted. To claim tey
were both winners is hogwash. Mladin wanted to beat Spies, and what
Spies wanted was the championship. He got it.
My point here is not to say that Mat isn't a phenomenal racer. It is
to say you apply double standards, and it'd be amsuing to see what
you'd have to say if Rossi had conveniently claimed he was bored with
winning championships when he got beat by Hayden and Stoner. You'd go
"yeah right", and yet here you are Mladin was competing without truly
wanting to win, thus his losing a championship has no relevance. You
kinda make my point about double standards. :-)
Dave
<pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
>On Nov 20, 10:42�pm, Mark N <menusbaumNYETS...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> What Mat said, and repeatedly, is that he didn't give a shit about
>> championships, he'd already won six of them and they just didn't matter
>> that much to him at that point, what he wanted to do was win races, to
>> beat Spies straight up on the track. He said that before the 2007 season
>> and he was still saying it at the end of the 2008 season.
>
>And I do not buy it. Spies beat Mat the way he wanted. To claim tey
>were both winners is hogwash. Mladin wanted to beat Spies, and what
>Spies wanted was the championship. He got it.
You're so full of shit, Pablo. For someone who admits he doesn't
watch the races and doesn't follow the series you're so cock sure that
you know exactly what's going on. You've already lost your
credibility on this particular topic and yet you continue trying to
bend the facts because they don't fit your personal ideals of what
racing is about.
pablo
I have never claimed I know what's going on. I have stated my opinion
that Mark is applying blatantly different standards on Rossi and
Mladin. I am not trying to diminish either's accomplishments (unlike
Mark). I have also stated my opinion that I do not buy Mladin giving
away the championship to a guy he wanted to beat because he was bored
of winning them whatever. It sounds like a Biaggi-style spin-job aka
excuse.
And if Mladin didn't want to win, wow, that really puts a question
mark on his racer's heart and does not do much to advance his legend.
The *facts* (as opposed to opinions and statements) are that -
1. Mladin lost the championship to a younger teammate
2. Rossi did not
And thus Mark's original premise is not consistent. Mladin's complex
inner psychological framework and motivational issues do not figure
into that. That and nothing else is my point. I am not telling you
that you are wrong in buying Mladin's statement, and am not trying to
change your mind. Unlike you.
...pablo
Julian Bond
>No WSB rounds at Brands, Silverstone, maybe even Donington - why is
>that?
The Donington saga is truly sad. Tom Wheatcroft is now dead, the company
running the track is bankrupt, the track has been dug up. It doesn't
look like there'll be any racing there this year or maybe ever. And that
means no F1 race in the UK either. Thank you Bernie Ecclestone. Thank
you very much.
And with a BSB meeting at Brands the week before it's fairly unlikely
Jonathan Palmer will pay Flammini's asking price for WSB. At least for
that weekend.
If Silverstone MotoGP works well, I wouldn't be surprised to see WSB
there as well. But not next year.
>If there were as many Americans in WSB as there are Brits, I'd
>guarantee you there's be at least two very stable WSB rounds run in
>America.
But who though? Is anyone from AMA going to make it to WSB/WSS? Or
Moto2? There's RL Hayden. Noyes has been racing in Spain and has the
help of a well connected dad. Anyone else? Is Cameron Beaubier going ot
be back in 125GP?
>[1] How have imported former champions Lavilla and Kiyonari been doing
>in WSB?
Both are a puzzle. Lavilla suffered the curse of Paul Bird and then went
form bad to worse with a severely under-funded privateer Ducati team.
Kiyo showed flashes of brilliance last year and won races but then lost
the plot completely this year, as did Checa. Strange to watch Ten Kate
lose there way initially but then for Rea and Sofuoglu to shine while
Pitt, Checa and Kiyo looked very average.
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Ped Xing
Julian Bond
>to hear. You know, like how great things are in BSB compared to the
>AMA, just what fans like you want to hear...
So you can say that DMG have destroyed one of the major championships.
But when a Brit who actually raced in it says that, it's a vicious slur
on America, Americans, the American way of life and apparently you
personally. Ok. Got that.
I tell you what, why don't you just FOAD.
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Ped Xing
Mark N
No, I kinda don't. What is the double standard? Lorenzo (in large part)
made Rossi look like he's had a rather underwhelming championship, and I
think that's hard to argue. By all accounts Rossi is the greatest rider
ever, and he's also in is prime years, and he's always beaten his
teammates rather badly. This year he didn't, he won but with his fewest
wins and his fewest points per race than in any previous championship
year, and his teammate was closer to him than any other before. In part
because of that I chose to name Lorenzo as racer of the year and Rossi
second, but still higher than anyone else in GP.
I also chose to rate Spies as overall racer of the year, for his
spectacularly successful entrance onto the world scene. Does that make
him better than Rossi? No, as with Lorenzo, to me they're just the guys
who should be applauded most for what they did this year, and Mladin as
well. So should I have not rated Mladin the racer of the year in the AMA
series just because he lost to Spies in the championships the last three
years? What does that have to do with anything? And Mladin's status
isn't raised by Spies going to WSB and in many ways beating all those
guys more convincingly that he did Mladin in the AMA? I don't see how
you could think that.
On your other point, you have to recognize that Rossi is quite conscious
of his place in history, as evidenced by his 100 win celebration and the
big #9 on his championship celebration tee shirts this year. For certain
two of the things that now motivate him are breaking Ago's records for
total GP wins (122) and premier class championships (8). Mladin long ago
broke the records for AMA SB wins and championships, so that sort of
motivation simply isn't there. Now both of these guys have kept going
primarily because they love to race, and fighting guys head-to-head and
winning is the ultimate in that regard. All Mat was doing was
acknowledging that, that the championship was a secondary consideration
for him. And I never said it didn't matter at all to him; in fact I said
this: "I'm sure he also wanted to win the championships, he did say you
win races and the championship takes care of itself."
To put your comments and this discussion in context, let's look back a
number of years and see what you had to say after Laguna WSB in 2003:
And, just for amusement, here is my racers of the year post from that year:
Nice to see our Julian hasn't changed at all, his drink recipe today is
exactly the same as then - two shots of Trash American Racing, one shot
of Glorify BSB, a dash of bitters, and a liberal salting of the rim...
pablo
>
> No, I kinda don't. What is the double standard? Lorenzo (in large part)
> made Rossi look like he's had a rather underwhelming championship, and I
> think that's hard to argue.
So help me understand - Rossi's season in *winning* the championship
has cast more of a shadow on his standing than Mladin's when he *lost*
it? That means that actually you don't think that much of Mladin.
> ... Lorenzo as racer of the year and Rossi
> second, but still higher than anyone else in GP.
And I (and others) respectfully disagreed.
> I also chose to rate Spies as overall racer of the year,
And I agreed.
> ... Mladin's status
> isn't raised by Spies going to WSB and in many ways beating all those
> guys more convincingly that he did Mladin in the AMA? I don't see how
> you could think that.
If Haga was your chump of the year, Mladin must have been there too,
right? Oddly enough I can't recall you ever saying that. You
predictably take every chance to dump on the WSG/MotoGP riders and
never see you inconsistency of argument, because you fail to apply the
same rules to your AMA evaluation. The truth is something in the
middle, as always.
> To put your comments and this discussion in context, let's look back a
> number of years and see what you had to say after Laguna WSB in 2003:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/browse_thread/t...
What does that have to do with this discussion? By the way, over the
years *many* experts havce said exactly the same thing I said back
then, that the days when a UA background in racing was an advantage in
manhandling big bikes are over. I am not willing to escalate the
discussion into the usual hysteria that I hate America and burn the
flag and what not. Dude, the USA has produced and continues to produce
awesome racers, and let's hope they keep coming. Discussion over.
...pablo
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> No, I kinda don't. What is the double standard? Lorenzo (in large part)
>> made Rossi look like he's had a rather underwhelming championship, and I
>> think that's hard to argue.
>
> So help me understand - Rossi's season in *winning* the championship
> has cast more of a shadow on his standing than Mladin's when he *lost*
> it? That means that actually you don't think that much of Mladin.
If we were talking about racers of the year in 2006, in the AMA I
wouldn't have selected Mladin, I would have selected Spies. If it was
2008, I would have selected Rossi in MotoGP. Mladin won the 2009 DMG
championship, and more decisively than Rossi did in MotoGP. Again, I
have no idea what you're talking about.
>> ... Lorenzo as racer of the year and Rossi
>> second, but still higher than anyone else in GP.
>
> And I (and others) respectfully disagreed.
Which is fine. But I think that comes down to two things: one, he won
the championship,and two, he's Rossi. I think a lot of people wouldn't
look any farther than that; hell, a lot of folks though he was the rider
of the year in '06, when he didn't even win the championship. That's
just the way it is.
>> ... Mladin's status
>> isn't raised by Spies going to WSB and in many ways beating all those
>> guys more convincingly that he did Mladin in the AMA? I don't see how
>> you could think that.
>
> If Haga was your chump of the year, Mladin must have been there too,
> right? Oddly enough I can't recall you ever saying that.
Why would that be? Mladin didn't lose the championship, and he wasn't on
a bike favored by the sanctioning body, the owner of the series. DMG let
Ducati run their 1098R when they shouldn't have, and without the
restrictors of WSB. Suzuki was forced to dig up some 2008 GSX-Rs and
build them into SBs because DMG declared their 2009 bike not yet
eligible for Daytona, and yet Mladin won every race he ran on that bike.
He blew out to a huge points lead, enough that he could sit out the
Topeka round because of safety issues with that new track, enough that
he could cruise home to the championship even after being demotivated by
it all.
Now, in 2006 he certainly did misjudge his competition, and got beaten
regularly early in the season - after Mat won Daytona, Ben won 6 in a
row, and after losing the double at Elkhart he came back to win 4 of the
next 5. But Mat won the last 5 and ended up only 8 points behind Spies.
So I don't really see the comparison with Haga there either.
> You
> predictably take every chance to dump on the WSG/MotoGP riders and
> never see you inconsistency of argument, because you fail to apply the
> same rules to your AMA evaluation. The truth is something in the
> middle, as always.
Whereas you don't apply any rules at all, you just let your illogical
biases run wild as usual...
>> To put your comments and this discussion in context, let's look back a
>> number of years and see what you had to say after Laguna WSB in 2003:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/browse_thread/t...
>
> What does that have to do with this discussion? By the way, over the
> years *many* experts havce said exactly the same thing I said back
> then, that the days when a UA background in racing was an advantage in
> manhandling big bikes are over. I am not willing to escalate the
> discussion into the usual hysteria that I hate America and burn the
> flag and what not. Dude, the USA has produced and continues to produce
> awesome racers, and let's hope they keep coming. Discussion over.
"It is pathetic sportsmanship on the side of the US motorcycle fans to,
as the roles have inversed, not simply accept other riders from Europe
as the best there are right now, and claim it is about sponsorship and
nationality."
"Stuff like Laguna Seca has no significance when it comes to assessing
this stuff. It's the *one* chance US riders get to impress, so of course
they are over-motivated and go hell-for-leather, taking risks in their
backyward circuit that the guys actually going for the championship will
not go for if they're worth their salary and not idiot hotheads.
Controlled WSB riders compete favorably against over-motivated US riders
that already have their championship points in the bag and have
absolutely nothing to lose."
"Sure it's all a combination of things, but the US scene right now
doesn't seem to be nurturing talent the right way. Both Bostrom and
Hayden, arguably the best local talent, have been busts at world level,
and they *did* get access to top material. Discussion over."
It's now six years later and Spain has yet to win its second GP
championship. In the meantime Hayden has been GP champion, and of the
four riders who have won since Criville, three are American or
Australian. And of course an American has made the biggest splash of
anyone in WSB, maybe ever. And no Spaniard or Italian or Japanese has
ever won the WSB championship.
The reality is that the bike ridden in MotoGP have intentionally been
pushed toward fitting the abilities of riders coming up through the 125
and 250 support classes, exactly because that's who GP wants to be
dominating in their series, in large part because those riders mostly
come from Spain and Italy, the financial homeland of GP. What is amazing
is how successful they've now become at achieving that, even though it
has come at the cost of exciting, interesting, compelling racing. And,
potentially, at the cost of weakening their biggest star...
Mark N
> Mark N
>> want to hear. You know, like how great things are in BSB compared to
>> the AMA, just what fans like you want to hear...
>
> So you can say that DMG have destroyed one of the major championships.
> But when a Brit who actually raced in it says that, it's a vicious slur
> on America, Americans, the American way of life and apparently you
> personally. Ok. Got that.
Oh, so now you claim both Hodgson and you through Hodgson were only
talking about this year and DMG? Strikes me that you were reaching back
to the old AMA championship for a target for your poison pen, since it's
too easy to take shots at the current series and no one will really
contest that. And of course you referenced Hodgson talking about
Mladin's salary for the last ten years, and you referenced the number of
rounds prior to this season. And as for his testing comment, I think the
AMA teams tested more than MotoGP did this season.
Get your story straight, Julian...
Julian Bond
>Get your story straight, Julian...
It's called a "quote", dickhead. Them's not my words, them's Hodgson's.
As seen in the latest issue of Motorcycle Racer.
But like I said, apparently it's ok for you to talk about DMG destroying
the AMA series but if anyone else does it, it's a poison pen. Really.
Just FOAD.
On which note, I see that the DMG/AMA schedule has no Laguna Race and
Ohio the weekend before. And yet the Dorna schedule still has the note
"MotoGP only" against that race. It's going to be a pretty thin day next
year with only one race.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Close Tightly After Use
sweller
> My all-time favorite show
The Thick of It.
--
Simon
pablo
Mark -
it's clear you inevitably get off on the name calling and escalating
it to a level of antagonism that I am utterly bored with (just like
Mladin is of winning championships).
Suit yourself and argue by and against yourself.
pablo
> But like I said, apparently it's ok for you to talk about DMG destroying
> the AMA series but if anyone else does it, it's a poison pen. Really.
Who are we to voice opinions on a national series (while Mark feels
free to escalate himself from the rational to the ludicrous in his
criticism of every non-US rider [conveniently awarding naturalization
to Mladin before the INS does]) if we dare engage him in continued
discussion every time.... oh and Stoner is the anti-Med despite being
brought up by the Dorna recipe book...).
Anyhow, I still think Bradley Smith will make it. :)
Mark N
> Julian Bond wrote:
>
>> But like I said, apparently it's ok for you to talk about DMG destroying
>> the AMA series but if anyone else does it, it's a poison pen. Really.
>
> Who are we to voice opinions on a national series (while Mark feels
> free to escalate himself from the rational to the ludicrous in his
> criticism of every non-US rider [conveniently awarding naturalization
> to Mladin before the INS does]) if we dare engage him in continued
> discussion every time.... oh and Stoner is the anti-Med despite being
> brought up by the Dorna recipe book...).
Let's see, I post up a bit reflecting on the past season, an opinionated
bit, of course, trying to liven things up around here and get some
discussion going. Julian immediately attempts to spin iti to the UK, and
not in a classy way like Champ, contributing with an across-the-pond
look at BSB and broadening the scope of the thread, but rather with his
usual stuff trying to derail the topic, change the subject. Eventually
you go off on some Mladin-Rossi thing that still makes no sense, I guess
offended that Rossi wouldn't universally be regarded the racer of the
year every year, and then drag in some attempted bizarre connection
between Haga and Mladin. Meanwhile Julian gets down to business with
some serious shots at the AMA, as if anyone here is providing any sort
of positive picture of that series this year. But, no, it's not the
current name-only AMA, it's looking back prior to this year, as far back
as a decade, which he then tries to sidestep in his usual
holier-than-thou manner by comparing what he (and Hodgson) are saying to
what I have said about the DMG-run so-called AMA in 2009. In the process
he calls me a dickhead and tells me to fuck off and die. Twice. And then
you accuse ME of name-calling, and being critical of every non-US rider,
even though two of the three riders I've put up as riders of the year
aren't American and the one I did you agreed with, and one of them is
even SPANISH, for God's sake.
In other words, a typical few days here at RMR, nothing has changed at
all over this mercifully soon-to-end decade...
pablo
> .. Eventually
> you go off on some Mladin-Rossi thing that still makes no sense, I guess
> offended that Rossi wouldn't universally be regarded the racer of the
I think we agreed Spies was the racer of the year. Does your anti-US
persecutory mania know no boundaries?
As to the Rossi-Mladin thing it is simple: one lost his title to his
teammate without you ever (a) using that for a demerit for his status
at the time or (b) labeling him a chump at the time for ending up
close runner up; the other wins against a teammate comfortably and you
still call it a sign of weakness and what not. I will let you wonder
who is who.
> In other words, a typical few days here at RMR, nothing has changed at
> all over this mercifully soon-to-end decade...
Indeed Mark, it is unbelievable that given your unbiased, reasonable
and balanced views you so regularly end up having to defend yourself
getting personal and with increasingly lengthy diatribes. As you can
easily see I ain't biting these days. :-D
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> .. Eventually
>> you go off on some Mladin-Rossi thing that still makes no sense, I guess
>> offended that Rossi wouldn't universally be regarded the racer of the
>> year every year ...
> As to the Rossi-Mladin thing it is simple: one lost his title to his
> teammate without you ever (a) using that for a demerit for his status
> at the time or (b) labeling him a chump at the time for ending up
> close runner up; the other wins against a teammate comfortably and you
> still call it a sign of weakness and what not. I will let you wonder
> who is who.
So let me get this straight. Here is your formula, according to what I
can make of your reasoning:
A) I have to rate Rossi as the rider of the year in MotoGP, no matter
what kind of year he had, as he won the championship
and
B) I cannot rate Haga as the chump of the year in WSB, having lost the
championship only by a few points, no matter how he lost the
championship and no matter how big his edge was in equipment
if
C) I want to rate Mladin as the rider of the year in DMG, even though he
won a dominating championship topping off a dominating career.
But by choosing Lorenzo over Rossi for GP rider of the year, by choosing
Haga WSB chump of the year, and by choosing Mladin AMA rider of the year
I have displayed inconsistency and an unacceptable level of pro-American
/ anti-everyone else attitude. And this is because Mladin lost the
championship to Spies, my overall racer of the year this year (a choice
which is okay), the last three years. Do I have that about right?
>> In other words, a typical few days here at RMR, nothing has changed at
>> all over this mercifully soon-to-end decade...
>
> Indeed Mark, it is unbelievable that given your unbiased, reasonable
> and balanced views you so regularly end up having to defend yourself
> getting personal and with increasingly lengthy diatribes. As you can
> easily see I ain't biting these days. :-D
Coulda fooled me. And of course the only two people against whom I have
to defend myself are you ("It is pathetic sportsmanship on the side of
the US motorcycle fans to, as the roles have inversed, not simply accept
other riders from Europe as the best there are right now, and claim it
is about sponsorship and nationality.") and Julian ("racing would be
better off without America and Americans"), and I can't think of anyone
who has displayed more of a clear and consistent anti-American and
arrogantly pro-European attitude (regarding racing, of course) than the
two of you in the ten years I have been hanging around RMR. So really no
surprise here, is there?
Champ
wrote:
>DaveW wrote:
>
>> My all-time favorite show
>The Thick of It.
That's probably not shown in the US - the swearing would mean it was
HBO only.
But the movie "In the loop" gives an idea of it.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Julian Bond
>and I can't think of anyone who has displayed more of a clear and
>consistent anti-
Mark N attitude
>than the two of you in the ten years I have been hanging around RMR.
There. Fixed it for you.
Think of it as a counterpoint to your relentless Pro-American and
Anti-European attitude.
pablo
> ... ("It is pathetic sportsmanship on the side of
> the US motorcycle fans to, as the roles have inversed, not simply accept
> other riders from Europe as the best there are right now, and claim it
For crying out loud Mark, will you let it go? The quote has
(a) nothing to do with the current dicussion
(b) nothing I would say in *today's* situation
What, since I haven't said anything you can use to make me look anti-
american in this thread, you have to go back several years and quote
out one of many hyper-escalated exchanges we went for? What you are
the only one with a nationality given right to be uhm "provocative"?
At least I thought it grew monotonous at some point in time.
To remind those with selective memories (a tragically permanent
condition for you, but you enjoy it and turn it into a strength given
the stanza you like to take), even back then in the Cretacean period
my point was that the USA had produced many unforgettable legendary
riders who I *loved* and after many years still love to watch. Geez,
I've looked up Roberts, Mamola, Lawson, Rainey and others more often
than I have looked up Rossi. But the fact was, years ago, that there
weren't US riders that wetre having such an impact at the world scene,
and there arguably still aren't. Because it is no longer the way it
was: machinery and rules have changed in the USA too, and dirttrack no
longer is the secret sauce to 500cc riding superiority that European
riders never experienced. There has been a shift. And there will never
again a clear superiority in riding... or perhaps the Dorna school
system is producing it.
Those are simple facts that are not original thoughts of mine. They
have been widely publicized. The reasons are manifold, and go frm
changed in technology to sponsorship and what not and if you want to
revisit it for the umpteenth time in a more constructive way than we
have in the past then by all means start another thread.
But you and I both know it's quite dishonest of you to inject several
old and out of context quotes (sure you can find some nice vitriolic
stuff of yours in that thread) in this thread so you can build
yourself up. Simply because I haven't been reacting the way you
expected me to despite your predictable and repetitive baiting.
Sorry it ain't fun, and no, I don't fit into you simple polarized
views of the world. You try to make me look like I worship everything
Spanish when I never have gone with your accolades about Lorenzo or
Gibernau (ain't it odd how you build up those Euromed guys that stick
it to Rossi a little); and heck, I could not be more indifferent about
the Spanish soccer team winning anything. But to you it'll always be
different because I lived in Spain once, and that makes me the closest
you have to that group across the ocean that you resent for loving
motorcycle racing so much that they have pretty much appropriated it.
pablo
answered "no" on the mundodeportivo.es online poll.
Switters
>>Someone else who's been watching The Wire :-)
>
> A man got ta have a code.
>
> My all-time favorite show.
As much as I liked The Wire, I don't think it was as good as Deadwood. A
lot of Brits can't get over Ian McShane though, but being young I had no
such problems. :)
Mark N
> Mark N
>
> >and I can't think of anyone who has displayed more of a clear and
> >consistent anti-
>
> Mark N attitude
>
> >than the two of you in the ten years I have been hanging around RMR.
>
> There. Fixed it for you.
>
> Think of it as a counterpoint to your relentless Pro-American and
> Anti-European attitude.
Okay, I will take that under advisement. And of course my anti-
European attitude was/is almost entirely based on three basic
offences, committed and established roughly ten years ago:
1) That the ex-250 Europeans (and Japanese) dominating the seats in
500 GP had not earned their place soley based on ability and results,
but rather in significant part based on sponsor, factory and series
nationality preferences. Pablo articulated this view about as well as
one can in the quote from 2003. Today this has morphed into bikes
designed around tiny former 125/260 riders.
2) That Ducati wasn't just The Little Factory That Could, the slayers
of Goliath in WSB, rather that the series had manipulated the rules to
provide an advantage to smaller factories running twins. Today that
has morphed into a twins/fours balancing rule that is absurd on the
face of it. (A rule Spies got around this year by trailing the
championship all year long and only passing Haga at the final round).
3) That the AMA series actually was worth talking about and not some
backwater series entirely unrelated to big-time racing in the real
world. That, unfortunatelyly, is morphing into reality today.
That's basically it, right?
Howard Kveck
pablo <pa...@simplyhombre.net> wrote:
> PS: Lawson beats Rossi on any bike, any era. Rossi the GOAT? I
> answered "no" on the mundodeportivo.es online poll.
Who'd be twisting the wrenches? That has to factor in too.
--
tanx,
Howard
Caught playing safe
It's a bored game
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
pablo
> > PS: Lawson beats Rossi on any bike, any era. Rossi the GOAT? I
> > answered "no" on the mundodeportivo.es online poll.
>
> Who'd be twisting the wrenches? That has to factor in too.
I think what makes Lawson so formidable is that arguably he was the
most methodical rider ever, and had an uncanny ability to communicate
with engineers and steer bike development in the right direction.
Probably the best rider-engineer ever. Rossi is also strong in that
area, but of course always had the advantage of Burgess being able to
teach him given his long and venerable experience with other riders.
Roberts of course also had a very strong technical understanding of
bikes (as far as I recall Carruthers was the the first chief mechanic
to get as much credit as he did).
Out of the top of my head I think Lawson-Rossi-Roberts are the most
noteworthy bike developers, with Lawson and Rossi being able to win
titles on different machines that they took from mid-grid to win. But
I'll give Lawson the edge. I know Lawson is not often picked for GOAT,
but in a cross era match on equal motorcycles, my money is on his
clockwork speed, and his ability to set up a bike optimally. My vote
is Lawson. There are many sentimental favorites, but when I think
about it in my head Lawson was it.
...pablo
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> ... ("It is pathetic sportsmanship on the side of
>> the US motorcycle fans to, as the roles have inversed, not simply accept
>> other riders from Europe as the best there are right now, and claim it
>> is about sponsorship and nationality." ...
>
> For crying out loud Mark, will you let it go? The quote has
> (a) nothing to do with the current dicussion
> (b) nothing I would say in *today's* situation
>
> What, since I haven't said anything you can use to make me look anti-
> american in this thread, you have to go back several years and quote
> out one of many hyper-escalated exchanges we went for?
>
> condition for you, but you enjoy it and turn it into a strength given
> the stanza you like to take), even back then in the Cretacean period
> my point was that the USA had produced many unforgettable legendary
> riders who I *loved* and after many years still love to watch. Geez,
> I've looked up Roberts, Mamola, Lawson, Rainey and others more often
> than I have looked up Rossi. But the fact was, years ago, that there
> weren't US riders that wetre having such an impact at the world scene,
> and there arguably still aren't. Because it is no longer the way it
> was: machinery and rules have changed in the USA too, and dirttrack no
> longer is the secret sauce to 500cc riding superiority that European
> riders never experienced. There has been a shift. And there will never
> again a clear superiority in riding... or perhaps the Dorna school
> system is producing it.
Dude, no one is arguing any of that. Well, except for that Dorna
throwaway bit at the end...
> Those are simple facts that are not original thoughts of mine. They
> have been widely publicized. The reasons are manifold, and go frm
> changed in technology to sponsorship and what not and if you want to
> revisit it for the umpteenth time in a more constructive way than we
> have in the past then by all means start another thread.
>
> But you and I both know it's quite dishonest of you to inject several
> old and out of context quotes (sure you can find some nice vitriolic
> stuff of yours in that thread) in this thread so you can build
> yourself up. Simply because I haven't been reacting the way you
> expected me to despite your predictable and repetitive baiting.
Wrong, I was pointing out your history of condemnation of contemporary
American racing (meaning anything post-80s, I think), which goes a hell
of a lot farther than these posts.
> Sorry it ain't fun, and no, I don't fit into you simple polarized
> views of the world. You try to make me look like I worship everything
> Spanish when I never have gone with your accolades about Lorenzo or
> Gibernau (ain't it odd how you build up those Euromed guys that stick
> it to Rossi a little); and heck, I could not be more indifferent about
> the Spanish soccer team winning anything. But to you it'll always be
> different because I lived in Spain once, and that makes me the closest
> you have to that group across the ocean that you resent for loving
> motorcycle racing so much that they have pretty much appropriated it.
Whatever. As far as I can tell, because the logical connections in what
you have been arguing and condemning me for here are so elusive, what
your whole thing boils down to is this: I have been unfairly critical of
the biggest name in GP (Rossi, for not considering him the GP rider of
the year), I have been unfairly critical of the biggest name in WSB
(Haga, for considering him to be the WSB chump of the year), and I have
been unfairly complimentary of the biggest name in American racing
(Mladin, for considering him the AMA rider of the year). The claimed
basis of that, as far as I can tell, is that Mladin lost the prior three
championships to Spies. Which, of course, has nothing to do with this year.
Now, I calmly explained to you the reasoning behind each of those
selections, which you have chosen to ignore, and as both Dave and I
explained the reality of the prior 3 seasons in the AMA, a series you
clearly don't follow closely at all, you became increasingly shrill and
accusatory, holding your ground on your claim that what I was saying was
internally inconsistent and biased. Even though the foundation of that
claim lies with a rating of Mladin in a year other than this year, and
which I haven't declared at all here at RMR.
Anyway, I am left feeling your attacks here are really the same old
thing, your disrespect, disdain and perhaps even revulsion for American
racing and, one assumes, American racers (even if citizens of another
nation). Doesn't matter if decades ago you "loved" the likes of Roberts
and Mamola, once Dorna and Co. had pushed aside the generally unwanted
(in Europe) American and Australian racers, surely your affection
quickly changed the the Euros trapped in 250 for a decade and a half,
and it all changed. In any case, I am left guessing because you cannot
make your case coherently, using the evidence at hand, rather you have
to fabricate evidence and make illogical connections to defend your
vitriol. Time for some personal growth, Pablo.
pablo
> ...defend your
> vitriol. ...
My vitriol? Dude, I have disagreed with some of your points (agreeing
with Spies as rider of the year, there goes your anti-US argument) but
have not insulted you, just told you you are inconsitent.
Clearly this is about you wanting to feel victimized (despite
misrepresenting my points) and wanting to have the last word, so suit
yourself and have a wonderful evening.
My last message on this, this has become way too cyclical, and you
have receded into trying to argue both sides of the argument while
perfectly ignoring what I *really* said.
pablo
> thing, your disrespect, disdain and perhaps even revulsion for American
And this is what happens when you stop taking your medication. You are
one crazy little man.
Mark N
> My vitriol? Dude, I have disagreed with some of your points (agreeing
> with Spies as rider of the year, there goes your anti-US argument)
No, it just shows even you have your limits, would have been very tough
to justify any other choice...
> My last message on this, this has become way too cyclical, and you
> have receded into trying to argue both sides of the argument while
> perfectly ignoring what I *really* said.
Which was? I have my doubts that anyone understands for certain what you
were *really* saying...
Dirt
I'm six episodes into The Wire. Started season one on DVD a couple of
weeks ago. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
I really grew to like Deadwood and was sorry to see it go. I didn't
know what to make of it the first season. Ian McShane was the best of
the bunch to my eye.
-Chris-