Riders of the Year and other spoilers...
Mark N
time once again to rate our favorite combatants. Not necessarily the top ten
riders in the world, but sort of the best guys who had the best seasons.
1) Valentino Rossi - MotoGP is king now, and he's still the King of MotoGP.
Another championship, not so close in the end, some truly brilliant and
spectacular efforts when he had dug a hole for himself, capped by the PI
win, and he finished stronger than he started. But he was contested for a
time, by lowly Sete Gibernau at that, unquestionably had the best machine in
the class, and the assumption of him going down as one of the best of the
all-time best was shadowed by whispers that "he does make mistakes". Wasn't
quite like last year in terms of domination, mostly just because there were
more bikes like Val's on the grid with decent riders in the saddles, but
still got 9 wins in 16 races and was never off the podium. Those wins moved
him to fourth all-time, passing Eddie with his PI win, and he's just 24.
Maybe next year we'll really get to see what he's made of, when he moves on
to Yamaha, or rather will find out we're already seeing it. But whatever one
thinks of his machinery advantage, it's awful hard to argue that he wasn't
the best this year. The contract decision process, which has put rider
hiring decisions on hold everywhere, just reinforce Rossi's position as the
assumed greatest, and making the move not only is the best thing that could
happen to GP but also puts him a step above Doohan, who sat tight at Honda
his entire career. A very worthy champion.
2) Loris Capirossi - He rode as hard as anyone, got Ducati's dramatic first
win (courtesy of Rossi's mistake, it must be said), three poles, six total
podiums, took fourth in points, and didn't even come close to killing anyone
all season. He's finally delivering on all that promise he's been showing
for over a decade now, and it seems it's doing it for God and Country that's
done it for him. If Ducati manages to close the gap to Honda and with Rossi
ending up on a Yamaha, he just might win that elusive premier class
championship next year. Even if he has to take out Bayliss on the last lap
of the last race to do it...
3) Mat Mladin - My position on this choice is that he had an awesome year,
winning a record-tying ten times and always dominating on his way to a
record fourth SB title, and now sits only two wins behind Duhamel on the
all-time list. He didn't have even more wins because of repeated tire
problems, not finishing on the podium in any position but first until the
very last race of the year. But he won the championship rather easily
anyway, in a series that rewards scoring consistency. Those tire problems
could be viewed as a negative, partially his fault, and I do think all those
years of the strategic approach on a lesser 750 made him push so hard this
year when he finally had the goods. Maybe the result was occasional burned
tires, and also a burned body and mind at Laguna. He was faster than anyone
else all year, as he was all weekend at Laguna, a truly impressive turn of
speed that was only partially spoiled by what happened on Sunday. And I
don't think his Suzuki was inherently massively superior, evidenced by the
unequal performances of teammate Yates, BSB man Reynolds, WSB pretender
Lavilla. It certainly could accelerate, but it was a new bike with unknown
setup requirements, limitations imposed by the new rules, and didn't seem to
have a top speed advantage. Anyway, given another GP ride at any point over
the last decade and I believe almost everyone would have him in the top half
dozen today, where I've ranked him for five years or so anyway. The most
underrated guy in the world today.
4) Troy Bayliss - He was unflappable in his debut season in MotoGP, had more
than a few sparkling moments, and took three podiums and sixth in points.
Too bad about his crash at Philip Island, where he might well have had his
best result, and which cost him fifth in the championship. Given
that it's still a Honda series and that he was new to most of the tracks on
Friday, that's something. As Nicky said when asked recently if anyone in
MotoGP had amazed him, "There's a lot of guys, but the one guy who's really
impressed me is Bayliss. No matter where he qualifies he goes to the front
quick and just stays there, he's impressive". I sure hope age doesn't catch
up with him before he can reach his limits.
5) Sete Gibernau - The growing Italian-Australian conspiracy broken up by
a... Spaniard? It pains me to say yes, but the guy did have an outstanding
season. Never mind that it was probably the death of his teammate that
made it happen, but he did get four wins, ten podiums, challenged Rossi to
the end and finished ahead of Biaggi and everyone else. It all came together
for him this year, at age 30 and in his 7th year in the class. If Rossi had
only gone down with an injury he'd have been Alex Criville, 1999. The luck
of the Spanish has always been with him, of course, and I wouldn't rate him
this high on raw talent, but he showed what determination, experience and
all the breaks in the world can do for a guy...
6) Massimiliano Biaggi - Mr. Two-Wins-A-Year gets two more again (now 12 in
6 seasons in 500/MGP), another top three finish in points, but his excuses
were starting to sound a bit hollow in the year when he was supposed to
finally have the goods to show what he can do. Those weren't just excuses -
I don't think he had the equipment that Rossi and even Gibernau had,
certainly not even close earlier in the year, and he did make teammate Ukawa
on the "factory bike" look pretty ordinary. So Max probably got less than he
deserved this year. But too often he was pressured into making mistakes, and
in the end he still looked like a very good also-ran who's time is running
out. As I said last year, still Luca Cadalora, Part Deux. But Rossi's move
will give him one more chance to toss that label next year.
7) Nick Hayden - He"s right on track for where I still think he's headed,
the very top of the GP pack. He did his job this year, learning, not
crashing much, getting a bit faster every weekend, running with the leaders
by season's end and getting that nice podium at PI on the last lap, He make
the biggest improvement of anyone over the course of the year, and was very
consistent about it for a guy so young - none of that fast one week, slow
the next, in the dirt the next that we've seen from so many other guys,
something Nick has never shown (although he did push it too far today,
unfortunately). This course would have him shaping his own bike and winning
some races in '04, then a serious championship run in '05, and I see no
reason why he won't stay on course. Rossi's move may force an acceleration
to that schedule, though, depending on who ends up his teammate. But there's
no reason to think he won't be mixing it with the contenders (Rossi,
Gibernau, Capirossi, Edwards, Biaggi and Bayliss, by my early reckoning) all
season long.
8) Colin Edwards - Pretty clearly the Best of the Rest in GP, consistently
the fastest of the guys fated to ride also-ran Aprilias, Suzukis, Kawasakis
or Protons in MotoGP. The year started well, a 6th at Suzuka, and ended
well with an 8th today, but not much in between. My Number One in '02 drops
this far only because he's new to the series and had to ride true crap all
year, so didn't have any skins on the wall to make his case, and he got
tired of battling the jackhammer as the season closed out. He deserved
better than 13th in points (behind Jacque, for chrissakes). But he is a true
ball of fire (and not Aprilia-style), he's headed to Honda now, so we can
put it down to a learning year and we'll get to see what Colin can really do
in '04. The only question left is, how good will his Honda be, a "Rossi
bike" or a "Biaggi bike"? In any case, I expect I'll be moving him back up
this list a year from now.
9) Neil Hodgson - He did what was expected, winning the WSB title with ease,
and claimed it in impressive style, starting the year with a record-tying
nine straight wins. But in the end the achievement rang a bit hollow,
because he really didn't have much competition, because he went bit flat
after his Silverstone double midyear, lowlighted by being handed his hat by
the BSB boys at Brands, and ended the year on the ground. Maybe
understandable, considering his work was essentially done and MotoGP lay in
his future, but he didn't even win as many races as Bayliss did last year,
and Troy had to deal with Edwards. Too bad he wasn't pushed harder this
year, because the deep end of MotoGP on a year-old (assumedly) Duc will
certainly test his mettle next season.
10) Marco Melandri - I have to include a Yamaha guy, don't I? The thing is,
he looked very good on occasion (particularly PI where he led, although he
probably was riding over his head in the end), looking like maybe he's the
real thing, and that's about the most you could expect for a 21-year-old in
his first year in the class and on a bit less than a class-leading machine.
Honorable Mention:
James Toseland - Still very much on the rise, he got that first win this
year and finished third in the championship. He slipped some late in the
season, though, probably the only thing that kept him off the bottom of my
RotY list. As much as it would have pained the folks in Blighty, I wish he'd
been destined for the AMA, where he'd fit right in with the fast crowd here.
A good choice by Ducati, but is WSB a dead end for him? His hope has to be
that Ducati has him on the same path as Bayliss and Hodgson, but he may be
going down with a sinking ship.
Shakey Byrne - Yes, he dominated BSB and won both WSB races he entered. But
he was on the best Ducati in a Ducati series, just another in an
increasingly long line of Ducati BSB champions, and had everything going his
way at Brands. So is he another Bayliss or Hodgson, or is he just another
IoM hero in the making? And does he have anywhere to go to show us?
Manuel Poggiali - he's 250 GP champion and did it in his first year, so you
can't leave him out entirely. But he's also on the factory Aprilia and
250 simply isn't what it once was, so I can't declare him a world beater
yet. Still, one look at my top ten reveals more than a couple of his
predecessors, so...
Roberto Rolfo - Roby's the guy in 250 who should be mentioned, hanging in
all year on the slower Honda and finishing a fairly close second, courtesy
of that fine 2nd win at PI. Aprilia took 6 of the top 7 positions in the
championship and 14 wins in 16 races, and it was Rolfo who prevented the
sweep, in part by finishing every race. And he's a real Italian, too...
Also worth mentioning:
Makoto Tamada - Some very impressive showings as a world rookie, but he was
on a Honda of unknown quality (remember, he is Japanese) and who knows if
the Bridgestones actually gave him an edge at times (particularly Motegi)?
Too many have been down his path and never did much of anything, so I can't
accept he's entirely for real yet. But looks like a nice start.
Eric Bostrom - I still think he's top ten material, where I had him last
year. But luck ran against him, the year just didn't work out like '02 did,
he doesn't look any closer to a world ride now, Kawasaki hasn't yet
confirmed that they're entering an AMA SB in '04, and to top it off he even
lost the Best Guy Racing On Crap title to Edwards. Or did they retire that
award to KRJR?
Kurtis Roberts - Well, he finally won a SB race (two, actually), was the
best of the Honda men and looked as fast as anyone late in the year, and it
seems (at least to him) that he's headed for MotoGP. Appears to be coming of
age, but maybe he's just the Ruben Xaus of the AMA, and that's not saying
much. We'll see next year, I guess, but I have a hard time believing it will
be with anyone but the old man - American Honda has moved on, I can't
believe Honda, Yamaha or Ducati in GP would sign him, and where else is
there?
Frankie Chili - Going out in style, he was fast all year on the private
Ducati and actually won a race. One of the few things WSB had going for
itself this year.
Not really worth mentioning:
Alex Barros - What the hell happened?! I've crapped on him for years, you
guys almost convince me he's for real late last year, I predict him for
second in class this year (holding my nose all the while), and then nothing,
a 9th in the championship. He finished behind Checa and tied in points with
Nakano among other Yamahas, and the last time he finished lower was way back
in '92 on the Cagiva. Well, he did get one podium, which is more than anyone
else on a Yamaha did this year. But really...
Kenny Roberts - The biggest drop on my list, all the way from fourth last
year (I had Barros in 6th). The problem is, not only didn't he do anything
on that piece of crap, which is completely understandable, but he complained
constantly, was outridden by his teammate much of the time and didn't even
seem to be trying just as often. Although he did finish stronger, a 9th and
11th in the last two races. Maybe he does still have what it takes (I think
he does, btw), but who really cares at this point? Living proof of what a
terrible bike can do to a guy.
Ben Bostrom - You gotta believe he's due for a great '04 because every time
he gets down he manages to save his career somehow, reminding people of his
promise. Well, he's never been quite this low before, so...
Carles Checa - So he gets the top seat in his fifth year on the factory team
and once again he fails to deliver anything meaningful, not even a podium.
He took 7th in the championship (at least he gets to keep his number, if not
his ride!), and the last time he did worse was an 8th in '97. Yes, the
bike's not quite as good as the Hondas and probably the Ducatis, but he
didn't really do that much more than Nakano, Melandri, even Jacque, and
there was talk late in the year of Yamaha buying out the rest of his
contract, seemingly confirmed by the expected Rossi deal at Fortuna. Of
course, there was also talk of him signing on with Repsol Honda - in GP the
more things change...
Ruben Xaus - Third year on the factory Ducati team, on one of the two
clearly best machines in WSB, and his first half, when it mattered, looked
like this: 12 races, 0 wins, 6 podiums, 2 DNFs (Hodgson had 11 wins and a
2nd). No further comment necessary - probably the most overrated guy in the
world today. But he may end up in MotoGP anyway - gee, I wonder why?
Tohru Ukawa - Did anyone really believe this guy actually deserved a factory
Honda? (I had to take one last shot!) Fittingly he ends it in the dirt -
bye-bye, Son of Itoh...
Anthony Gobert - Anthony who?
Opinions to the contrary are most welcome...
gcash
> 1) Valentino Rossi
...
> making the move not only is the best thing that could happen to GP but
> also puts him a step above Doohan, who sat tight at Honda his entire
> career.
So since Doohan is/was his mentor at Honda, do you think Mick said "psst,
hey kid... move on while you have the chance" and started Rossi's thought
process on this? Or maybe Rossi came to him and said "I'm bored..."
> 7) Nick Hayden - He"s right on track for where I still think he's headed,
> the very top of the GP pack. He did his job this year, learning, not
> crashing much, getting a bit faster every weekend
You know... I wonder... Rossi's supposed to be the best at communicating
with his mechanics and developing a bike. I wonder if he decided to help
Hayden out and try to teach him as much as possible. Hayden's not a
threat to Rossi anyway, and Rossi strikes me as the sort who would like
to play mentor to Hayden's puppydog-ness. Or maybe he'd like to see
Hayden become a threat to Biaggi when he leaves.
(I've also wondered how much influence Rossi had on the quality of
machinery that Biaggi got. There was always the rumors that he was upset
at Honda sharing his setup info with the other riders. That would be more
of the same.)
This makes me wonder how Hayden's next year is going to go with Rossi
gone. Will he keep the same incredible learning rate or will he have to
start digging for the golden tidbits himself?
Great post by the way.
-gc
--
"I am vehy 'appy. Is possible to push vehy hard. And is possible win"
- Valentino Rossi
pierre-bonneau
b-GdnbnNZNX...@giganews.com...
>
> Opinions to the contrary are most welcome...
Nice list and I agree with except for Sete I will put in 3 and that you are
not fair with Barros and Checa. They more or less fail mainly due to their
bike which was fast but difficult and dangerous.
pierre-bonneau
> hiring decisions on hold everywhere, just reinforce Rossi's position as
the
> assumed greatest, and making the move not only is the best thing that
could
> happen to GP but also puts him a step above Doohan, who sat tight at Honda
> his entire career. A very worthy champion.
It's now official that he won't be with Honda but we have to wait end of the
year to know its future...
>
>
> 8) Colin Edwards - But he is a true
> ball of fire (and not Aprilia-style), he's headed to Honda now, so we can
> put it down to a learning year and we'll get to see what Colin can really
do
> in '04. The only question left is, how good will his Honda be, a "Rossi
> bike" or a "Biaggi bike"? In any case, I expect I'll be moving him back up
> this list a year from now.
>
Official he will be with Sete, I assume the same bike so he should have the
material to be at the front. All these WSK stars ( Colin, Troy, Hayden and
now Hogson) will have no excuse next year to not be fighting for the podium.
After all this JIS dommination...
On the other hand Aprilia is really taking MotoGP for adv, they are not
serious.
One year devolpment with Laconi, sack everybody including technical staff,
put all their money on Edwards/Haga and Michelin, now change the 2 riders
for at least one (Byrne) who is new to GP and loose Michelin in the deal.
They now have to sign Jacque to complete the wonderful team.
DPGarza
> 2) Loris Capirossi - ... Even if he has to take out Bayliss on the last lap
> of the last race to do it...
Good one.
> 4) Troy Bayliss - I sure hope age doesn't catch
> up with him before he can reach his limits.
Was he the most crash-prone rider in '03?
> 8) Colin Edwards
It's interesting that his mid-pack placings didn't hinder his
advancement and that teams still respect his talent.
> Alex Barros - What the hell happened?!
It's going to be very strange if he becomes Hayden's teammate. I
wonder how long before they determine who THE factory rider will be?
Mark N
"pierre-bonneau" <pierre-...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:bo528d$i8$1...@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr...
> "Mark N" <menu...@earthlink.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > Opinions to the contrary are most welcome...
> Nice list and I agree with except for Sete I will put in 3 and that you
are
> not fair with Barros and Checa. They more or less fail mainly due to their
> bike which was fast but difficult and dangerous.
Well, I never claimed to be fair here ;</
The thing about Barros and Checa is that after a lot of years in GP they
finally got promoted to the number one seats on factory teams, and were
expected to deliver. 7th and 9th in the championship and a single podium
between them isn't exactly delivery. I don't agree that the Yamaha was all
that bad, either - the thing won two races last year (Biaggi), when it was
behind the development curve of the RCV, and even Checa put it on the box
four times and finished fifth in points. Barros was a spot higher after
doing most of the year on the NSR, and won two of the last four races when
given a crack at the RCV.
If you look at the other guys, there's not that much about these two that
stands out. Checa's best finishes were three 4ths, and Barros had two 5ths
to add to that wet 3rd in France. Nakano had a pair of 5ths, tied Barros in
points with 101, 22 behind Checa. Jacque got a 4th, 5th and 6th, and
Melandri had a 5th and did something the others didn't, actually led a race.
Since it's my call, I didn't expect that these three would have much impact,
before the season picking Nakano 12th (finished 10th), Melandri 14th
(finished 15th), and Jacque outside the top 15 (finished 12th). I had Checa
7th, which is where he ended up, but I really didn't expect much from him
anyway. But I had Barros 2nd, and he never looked like being that good. So
the other guys delivered as expected in my mind, but Barros didn't, and I
don't think you can just blame the bike.
On Sete, I was pretty much up in the air on my 3, 4 and 5 guys, but in the
end I decided Sete's good year was too dependent on a fast bike. I believe
Honda gave Rossi and Kato the best stuff going into the year, Kato because
he looked to be the Great Japanese Hope. Sete inherited that bike and the
focus of an entire team, but his Suzuka performance was likely more what we
would have seen from him all year without that - 6th in qualifying, 4th in
the race and 13 seconds back, after all the Japanese Honda guys crashed out.
But a big year from him in any case.
Mark N
"gcash" <gc...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:65i2f4...@cfl.rr.com...
> So since Doohan is/was his mentor at Honda, do you think Mick said "psst,
> hey kid... move on while you have the chance" and started Rossi's thought
> process on this? Or maybe Rossi came to him and said "I'm bored..."
Nah, I think it started with Yamaha talking to Rossi's people and throwing
some figures around. I'd guess they started out using that like Doohan did
with Rainey, trying to leverage a better deal from Honda, but then the
notion of the challenge, the added freedom and the rest started to appeal to
Val. I think the whole thing built its own momentum after that.
> You know... I wonder... Rossi's supposed to be the best at communicating
> with his mechanics and developing a bike. I wonder if he decided to help
> Hayden out and try to teach him as much as possible. Hayden's not a
> threat to Rossi anyway, and Rossi strikes me as the sort who would like
> to play mentor to Hayden's puppydog-ness. Or maybe he'd like to see
> Hayden become a threat to Biaggi when he leaves.
I don't think so. From what I've read it doesn't seem that Nick and Val
talked all that much and their teams are pretty independent. They certainly
share some information and Val provided Nick with some ideas, but that's
about it. Nick is a threat to Val, not now but in the future, although I'm
not sure that Rossi doesn't invite that. I think most of what Nick has
learned has come from figuring out on his own. That's pretty much how it
works at this level.
> This makes me wonder how Hayden's next year is going to go with Rossi
> gone. Will he keep the same incredible learning rate or will he have to
> start digging for the golden tidbits himself?
More of the same as this year, but he'll learn more from the heat of battle.
He's going to have to find those last couple tenths, and not make mistakes
like yesterday. He has to find it in himself, and for him it's always been
there before. I've been watching him race for a long time, the first time on
a 125 eight or nine years ago, and was there when he took his first 750SS
race win (Laguna '98), first 600SS race win (Willow '98), first FX race win
(Willow '99), first SB podium (PPIR '99), clinched his first championship
(600SS, PPIR '99), his first world championship race (Laguna WSS '98), first
WSB race (Laguna '02), and have seen him win a lot more races. He learns
fast and he gets to the front. The one thing I can say is that I wouldn't
bet against him.
> Great post by the way.
Thanks, man.
> "I am vehy 'appy. Is possible to push vehy hard. And is possible win"
> - Valentino Rossi
Maybe next year it will be "is impossible to win"?
pierre-bonneau
> I don't agree that the Yamaha was all
> that bad, either - the thing won two races last year (Biaggi), when it was
> behind the development curve of the RCV, and even Checa put it on the box
> four times and finished fifth in points. Barros was a spot higher after
> doing most of the year on the NSR, and won two of the last four races when
> given a crack at the RCV.
"I try a new challenge. Maybe to make this choice at this point is a little
mad"
Rossi word about the Yamaha Sunday evening, or did he speak of another one?
Will Hartung
"Mark N" <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6r-dnY5w--T...@giganews.com...
>
> More of the same as this year, but he'll learn more from the heat of
battle.
> He's going to have to find those last couple tenths, and not make mistakes
> like yesterday. He has to find it in himself, and for him it's always been
> there before. I've been watching him race for a long time, the first time
on
> a 125 eight or nine years ago, and was there when he took his first 750SS
> race win (Laguna '98), first 600SS race win (Willow '98), first FX race
win
> (Willow '99), first SB podium (PPIR '99), clinched his first championship
> (600SS, PPIR '99), his first world championship race (Laguna WSS '98),
first
> WSB race (Laguna '02), and have seen him win a lot more races. He learns
> fast and he gets to the front. The one thing I can say is that I wouldn't
> bet against him.
The other thing is that he's not a crasher. He lost it last weekend, he also
lost it in his last race last year as well. I don't recall him crashing much
this year at all (once? In practice?) He's keen on the riding and on the
business of riding. He probably felt safe to stretch his limits on the last
race specifically because it was his last race, and he could risk more.
The other notable thing, as an aside, I think watching him last weekend
helps distinguish GP from AMA is how little he advanced after his get off.
It seems barring a complete wreck of the bike, the top riders in the AMA can
crash out and still finish in the top 10 (if not higher) of an AMA race.
Just shows the disparity in the AMA field compared to the GP field, I think.
Regards,
Will Hartung
(wi...@msoft.com)
Julian Bond
>The other notable thing, as an aside, I think watching him last weekend
>helps distinguish GP from AMA is how little he advanced after his get off.
>It seems barring a complete wreck of the bike, the top riders in the AMA can
>crash out and still finish in the top 10 (if not higher) of an AMA race.
>Just shows the disparity in the AMA field compared to the GP field, I think.
There's no comparison. There's been several MotoGp races this year where
2/3 of the field have been inside last year's pole. Even the WCMs at the
very back have been within 3 seconds of pole. We've been busy
criticising people like Roberts, Barros, Checa, Jacques and it's easy to
dismiss everyone below 5th that you simply don't see on tv. But those
guys have been riding faster and closer to the edge than all but the top
2 or 3 in the National championships.
So how many Superbikes will there be in AMA SBK next year?
--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julia...@voidstar.com
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Rob
Webster.
Who? Steve Webster, World Sidecar Champion for the 9th time. Before anyone says
that the field is not competitive the first five over the line in the last race
at Magny Cours were all within one second of each other. Nine times World
Champion and well done Steve and Paul - need I say more?
Mark N
"Julian Bond" <julia...@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:Sjnt81FjBKq$EA...@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> Will Hartung <wi...@msoft.com> wrote:
> >The other notable thing, as an aside, I think watching him last weekend
> >helps distinguish GP from AMA is how little he advanced after his get
off.
> >It seems barring a complete wreck of the bike, the top riders in the AMA
can
> >crash out and still finish in the top 10 (if not higher) of an AMA race.
> >Just shows the disparity in the AMA field compared to the GP field, I
think.
Hey, Will. If you look at a comparison of Nicky's crash and Miguel's crash
at the last round at Barber you'll see a few things. Nicky crashed while
running 3rd on lap four and it appears that cost him about 27 seconds and
put him in last, which means 23rd. Miguel crashed on lap 9 while in 4th and
that dropped him to 17th, and looked to lose a lot more time than Nicky. He
ended up in 7th, 67 seconds behind race winner Yates. Hayden finished 16th,
71 seconds behind winner Rossi. In the AMA there were 38 starters and 10
finished on the lead lap, and in GP there were 23 starters and 19 finished
on the lead lap. If you look at Nicky's lap times, his fastest, a low 34,
was on lap three and was the lead pace. After the crash he never was in the
34s again, turning mostly 36s but a number of 35s as well, and some low 35s
over the last few laps. The lead pace was mostly mid-high 33s, so Nicky did
slow after the crash. Given that Miguel was closer at the end it seems he
was much more on the pace after his crash.
> There's no comparison. There's been several MotoGp races this year where
> 2/3 of the field have been inside last year's pole. Even the WCMs at the
> very back have been within 3 seconds of pole. We've been busy
> criticising people like Roberts, Barros, Checa, Jacques and it's easy to
> dismiss everyone below 5th that you simply don't see on tv. But those
> guys have been riding faster and closer to the edge than all but the top
> 2 or 3 in the National championships.
There isn't much comparison, but I wouldn't put it on the same terms as you
do. MotoGP limits its field to 24 riders, so you can pretty much dismiss
anyone lower than that on the AMA side if you are making a comparison. The
MotoGP field doesn't really include any privateeers, although there are a
few non-factory bikes. If you look at Barber the #23 qualifier, on a private
GSX-R1000 and probably never having seen the track prior to race weekend,
was 5.5 seconds behind pole man Mladin. At Valencia WCM's DeGea was 4.1
seconds slower than Rossi, but Haga on the Aprilia was less than a tenth
faster. Most of the best riders in the world are in MotoGP, and there are a
few guys not at this level, but not terribly much lower. In the AMA all of
the top factory guys are very close to the level of the better MotoGP guys,
but many of the privateers are clearly at another level. Combine that with
the big field and some of the SS-level bikes and there's obviously a larger
gap. But I disagree that the guys riding toward the back of the GP pack are
better than and riding harder than all but the very best in the AMA. I would
put Mladin, the Bostroms, Roberts, Yates, Duhamel up against DeGea, Burns,
Aoki, Pitt, Jacque any day...
> So how many Superbikes will there be in AMA SBK next year?
Is this a rhetorical question, Julian? What's a superbike? How many will
there be in BSB? In WSB?
Julian Bond
>In the AMA all of
>the top factory guys are very close to the level of the better MotoGP guys,
No they're not.
Yes, they are.
No they're not.
Yes, they are.
No.
They're not.
>> So how many Superbikes will there be in AMA SBK next year?
>
>Is this a rhetorical question, Julian? What's a superbike? How many will
>there be in BSB? In WSB?
What's a superbike? Why don't you know? Are those rhetorical questions
too? Or is an SS1000 eligible bike a superbike?
As for BSB and WSB, the answer is probably the whole field. Which given
current announcements is going to be somewhere between 2 and 24. Really,
today, who knows? And unusually, I wasn't asking about either of these
two championships.
Mark N
> Mark N <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >In the AMA all of
> >the top factory guys are very close to the level of the better MotoGP
guys,
> No they're not.
>
> Yes, they are.
<snip>
You forgot "Go fuck yourself, Julian";<)
Anyway, seems like last year's AMA champion, who never raced abroad before,
never rode a MotoGP bike before, never used Michelin tires before, just
finished 5th in the MotoGP championship. And some people are talking about a
championship for him next year, in just his 2nd season. Of course, it took
him three years to beat guys like Mladin and Bostrom to win the AMA SB
championship, and there he was already riding for Honda, already on Dunlops,
already familiar with all the tracks...
> >> So how many Superbikes will there be in AMA SBK next year?
> >Is this a rhetorical question, Julian? What's a superbike? How many will
> >there be in BSB? In WSB?
> What's a superbike? Why don't you know? Are those rhetorical questions
> too? Or is an SS1000 eligible bike a superbike?
I suspect the line would be right about where the majority of BSB bikes
would be above it and the majority of AMA bikes below it, eh, Julian? On a
technical point, there were no 1000SS machines in AMA SB this year, since
there was no 1000SS class in the AMA. So is a SB defined by whether of not
it has certain aftermarket bits? Are stock throttle bodies allowed? What
about stock swingarms? Non-Pirelli tires? Or is what matters the level of
factory support, the amount of testing, the quality of the riders? Is it a
1000, or might it be a 600? I think it's a legitimate question right now.
> As for BSB and WSB, the answer is probably the whole field. Which given
> current announcements is going to be somewhere between 2 and 24. Really,
> today, who knows? And unusually, I wasn't asking about either of these
> two championships.
Ah, I thought the line would be cleared by the BSB boys. I don't think any
of us know what the private (mostly) GSX-R1000s were in the AMA this year. I
know some of them were very fast, and I know Pridmore finished 2nd twice at
Mid-Ohio on a non-factory Suzuki. I also know that I've seen some pretty
doggy WSBs over the years, aftermarket bits or no. And I know part of the
issue in the AMA is that many of the best riders and teams don't do SB. In
any case, I'm sure we'll see 1000SS machines in AMA SB next year, since FX
is being replaced by that class. I would hope we'll see at least a handful
of non-factory SBs, though. But what I really want to see is a couple
factory Yamahas, a couple factory Kawasakis, a couple factory Ducatis. And I
want to see factory 600 SBs in the new FX class, and the factory riders get
out of 600SS, which should be more the novice class. But I have a feeling
that I won't see all of that...
Julian Bond
>> >In the AMA all of
>> >the top factory guys are very close to the level of the better MotoGP
>guys,
FWIW, I rate Mladin and Duhamel and that's all of *last year's* crop. At
least if we're comparing with "the better MotoGp guys". The rest of them
are good, possibly even damn good but not, I would suggest, close to
Capirossi good. But since we never see them race on anything or anywhere
where we could do any sort of comparison, that's clearly my opinion and
not based on any sort of objective reality.
> Anyway, seems like last year's AMA champion, who never raced abroad before,
>never rode a MotoGP bike before, never used Michelin tires before, just
>finished 5th in the MotoGP championship.
Indeed. And good for him. But he wasn't in the AMA this year and won't
be next year.
>> >> So how many Superbikes will there be in AMA SBK next year?
>
>I suspect the line would be right about where the majority of BSB bikes
>would be above it and the majority of AMA bikes below it, eh, Julian? On a
>technical point, there were no 1000SS machines in AMA SB this year, since
>there was no 1000SS class in the AMA. So is a SB defined by whether of not
>it has certain aftermarket bits? Are stock throttle bodies allowed? What
>about stock swingarms? Non-Pirelli tires? Or is what matters the level of
>factory support, the amount of testing, the quality of the riders? Is it a
>1000, or might it be a 600? I think it's a legitimate question right now.
I fail to understand why this is hard. AMA, BSB, WSB (and other
organizations) all have regulations that define a Superbike (SBK).
They're all subtly different but in broad terms they're the same. In
Endurance racing they also allow in machines to a different set of regs
to fill the grid. In recent years the AMA has done this as well allowing
teams to race in the SBK races with machines that are eligible for
lesser championships. Like SS750 and presumably next year, SS1000. So an
SBK bike is one that is eligible only for SBK, right? The rest is just
grid filler.
* PHIL *`
> Mark N <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>> >In the AMA all of
>>> >the top factory guys are very close to the level of the better MotoGP
>>
>> guys,
>
>
> FWIW, I rate Mladin and Duhamel and that's all of *last year's* crop. At
> least if we're comparing with "the better MotoGp guys". The rest of them
> are good, possibly even damn good but not, I would suggest, close to
> Capirossi good. But since we never see them race on anything or anywhere
> where we could do any sort of comparison, that's clearly my opinion and
> not based on any sort of objective reality.
>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two ride GP's a few years ago?
Mladin on the Cagiva where he was crushed by Doug Chandler, and Duhamel
on the Yamaha France bike next to Nial McKenzie?
I'm not following AMA at all, but if these two are top overthere then
I'm pretty sure the level is a lot lower than GP.
I have to admit that Nicky was a big surprise to me, he learned pretty
fast in the shadow of Vale, but I'm curious to see what he'lll do next
year when the whole world expects him to challenge for the top 3 every race.
Mark N
"* PHIL *`" <usenet@phil*NOSPAM*.ismienenaam.nl> wrote in message
news:bod84e$1ck1fe$1...@ID-165170.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Julian Bond wrote:
> > FWIW, I rate Mladin and Duhamel and that's all of *last year's* crop. At
> > least if we're comparing with "the better MotoGp guys". The rest of them
> > are good, possibly even damn good but not, I would suggest, close to
> > Capirossi good. But since we never see them race on anything or anywhere
> > where we could do any sort of comparison, that's clearly my opinion and
> > not based on any sort of objective reality.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two ride GP's a few years ago?
> Mladin on the Cagiva where he was crushed by Doug Chandler, and Duhamel
> on the Yamaha France bike next to Nial McKenzie?
> I'm not following AMA at all, but if these two are top overthere then
> I'm pretty sure the level is a lot lower than GP.
> I have to admit that Nicky was a big surprise to me, he learned pretty
> fast in the shadow of Vale, but I'm curious to see what he'lll do next
> year when the whole world expects him to challenge for the top 3 every
race.
Mladin had one year in GP, in '93 when he was 21 and after he'd been
roadracing only a couple years. He finished 13th in the championship with a
best finish of 6th. Chandler finished 10th that year. Duhamel had one year
in GP, in '92 when he was 23 and after he'd had two years of AMA SB racing
under his belt. He finished 12th in the championship with a best finish of
5th; MacKenzie finished 11th, 3 points ahead of Miguel. Considering the
bikes and everything else, I don't think these results were all that bad.
Look at Gibernau - he finished 13th in points in '97 with a best finish of
7th, and he was certainly more familiar with the GP scene. Barros finished
12th in his first year in '90, Melandri finished 15th this year, Jacque 15th
in '01, Ukawa 10th that year on the factory Honda team, and those guys came
out of 250, knew the tracks and series, knew about racing two strokes. Even
Doohan on the factory Honda team finished 9th his first year. It's like
judging BSB today based on Hodgson's first year in WSB in '96.
And I certainly wouldn't rate Duhamel the 2nd best guy in the AMA this year.
I'd put Eric Bostrom, Yates and Roberts higher (7 wins between them), and I
expect that Ben will rebound some next year. There does seem to be this
negative opinion of racing in the US in Europe, which I find confusing.
There certainly have been more US world champions than from any other
country over the last couple decades, and it's not like AMA graduates
haven't done well in the world championships recently, considering their
small numbers and the equipment they've had. Roberts won a championship on a
Suzuki (try that, Valentino), and Edwards won two. Hopkins has looked good
in GP so far, and I don't think anyone over here ranked him among the very
best when he was still in the AMA. Nicky came on at the end of the year, and
I don't think too many people believe Colin will be a total flop on the
Honda next year. I assume that it's a combination of Europeans having the
false belief that all those Euro promotions that took place in 500 in the
early, mid-90s were actually deserved (that's why guys like Duhamel and
Mladin and Chandler headed home) and the failures of Hale in WSB and
Kocinski in his return to 500. But Hale wasn't able to relight his career in
the AMA at all, and Kocinski couldn't win a single race in AMA SB back in
'00 with V&H Ducati, so what does that say?
Pierre Bonneau
"Mark N" <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:i5-dnaBfufs...@giganews.com...
> I assume that it's a combination of Europeans having the
> false belief that all those Euro promotions that took place in 500 in the
> early, mid-90s were actually deserved (that's why guys like Duhamel and
> Mladin and Chandler headed home) and the failures of Hale in WSB and
> Kocinski in his return to 500. But Hale wasn't able to relight his career
in
> the AMA at all, and Kocinski couldn't win a single race in AMA SB back in
> '00 with V&H Ducati, so what does that say?
>
>
It is well known that these guys were making more money in AMA than in
GP500.
This is the first reason.
Mark N
"Pierre Bonneau" <Pierre....@cern.ch> wrote in message
news:bodraa$drb$1...@sunnews.cern.ch...
> "Mark N" <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > I assume that it's a combination of Europeans having the
> > false belief that all those Euro promotions that took place in 500 in
the
> > early, mid-90s were actually deserved (that's why guys like Duhamel and
> > Mladin and Chandler headed home) ...
> It is well known that these guys were making more money in AMA than in
> GP500.
> This is the first reason.
Not really true. Chandler signed a two-year, $2.5M deal with Cagiva in '93.
Harley probably paid him pretty well in '95 (AMA-level, which likely wasn't
more than $300-400k, possibly less), and I doubt he got more that from Muzzy
in 96-97. When he signed his next deal for 98-99, after two straight
chamionships, it had to be for much more, but it's very unlikely he ever
reached his Cagiva salary again. Mladin went home to Australia for two
years, where he probably made shit, then to the AMA where he made more. But
he probably didn't get to good WSB-level salary until at least his return to
Suzuki in '98, and perhaps not until he was champion. Started making very
good money then, but he's never indicated that he turned down a good WSB or
GP ride. Duhamel made very little when he returned to the AMA with Kawasaki,
got his first real money with Harley in '94 (about 300k), then began to rake
it in at Honda, where he won the SB and 600SS championships in '95. Kocinski
was out of work in '95 after Cagiva pulled out, and then did two years in
WSB before he got back to GP.
So I don't think there's a case of one of these guys leaving GP so they
could make more money elsewhere, a ridiculous notion, really. Their AMA
salaries in the late '90s might have meant they wouldn't take a second-tier,
sell-cars-in-the-offseason ride that a Euro might accept, but I know of no
documented case of any of them turning down a decent ride in the world
championships, particularly GP. But if you know of any specific examples...
Mark N
> Mark N <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Anyway, seems like last year's AMA champion, who never raced abroad
before,
> >never rode a MotoGP bike before, never used Michelin tires before, just
> >finished 5th in the MotoGP championship.
> Indeed. And good for him. But he wasn't in the AMA this year and won't
> be next year.
Oh, so that's how it works - if you're in the AMA, you suck, and the only
way you can prove you don't is by racing in the world championships, but if
you do and do well you're not in the AMA anymore, so the AMA sucks once
again...
> >On a
> >technical point, there were no 1000SS machines in AMA SB this year, since
> >there was no 1000SS class in the AMA. So is a SB defined by whether of
not
> >it has certain aftermarket bits? Are stock throttle bodies allowed? What
> >about stock swingarms? Non-Pirelli tires? Or is what matters the level of
> >factory support, the amount of testing, the quality of the riders? Is it
a
> >1000, or might it be a 600? I think it's a legitimate question right now.
> I fail to understand why this is hard. AMA, BSB, WSB (and other
> organizations) all have regulations that define a Superbike (SBK).
> They're all subtly different but in broad terms they're the same. In
> Endurance racing they also allow in machines to a different set of regs
> to fill the grid. In recent years the AMA has done this as well allowing
> teams to race in the SBK races with machines that are eligible for
> lesser championships. Like SS750 and presumably next year, SS1000. So an
> SBK bike is one that is eligible only for SBK, right? The rest is just
> grid filler.
Well, what I was talking about here was what constitutes a SB over the
longer run, in the bigger picture, in a class that's in major transition
right now. On your current definition, that's not really true. There are
base machines that aren't allowed in any other class beside SB in the AMA,
because the AMA requires a certain number of imported machines to qualify
for all the other classes, I believe. But that doesn't make them true SBs,
not in off-the-showroom form, does it? The AMA has allowed any SB-eligible
base machine in SB, as long as it has the basic modifications performed
(mostly safety-related). So 750SS machines have been eligible ever since
that class was formed way back in '88, and there have been SS bikes in SB
ever since then. WSB doesn't run any other class that's even close to SB,
just WSS, so that's a mute issue with that series. I don't know what BSB
runs as support classes. So maybe what you're really criticizing the AMA for
is having another class that runs SB-eligible bikes? Will you be as critical
because the new FX class allows 600SS machines as well? At some level,
grid-filler is anything/anyone that has no chance of winning, and by that
definition BSB and WSB have as many if not more than the AMA, in part
because in those series you pretty much have to be on a Ducati to have a
shot at winning.
The criticism I would level at the AMA regarding SB is that the grids are
allowed to be too large, they let in some riders/bikes that are too slow,
they shouldn't allow anyone to practice in SB (or any other class) who's not
going to race. Other than that, they should construct the rules so that they
generate the largest factory participation, with an eye to making
well-funded private teams at least somewhat competitive. If fast guys on SS
machines qualify toward the back of the grid, so be it. They're pretty good
bikes these days. Better than a slower guy on a beat-up old machine that's a
SB only because it has aftermarket wheels, brakes, con rods, etc.
Julian Bond
>Oh, so that's how it works - if you're in the AMA, you suck, and the only
>way you can prove you don't is by racing in the world championships, but if
>you do and do well you're not in the AMA anymore, so the AMA sucks once
>again...
It's like this weird spiral or strange attractor where someone says "The
AMA is the best in the world and it's riders are the best in the world".
Someone (usually me) points out that a)we'll never know because we never
see them and they never race against anyone else. b)the grid of real
racers and competitive bikes is pretty thin and has been for the last
few years. c)At least some of the people involved were looking
un-impressive on their way from world to AMA and judging by results
don't seem to be lighting the fire there either.
The next thing we know, the original argument is forgotten and we're
into conspiracy theories, some paranoid delusions about Europeans
disliking Americans and probably references to spaghetti, tapas and raw
fish eating surrender monkeys. Jeez' get over it! If I poke fun at it,
it's because it's guaranteed to get a rise out of you.
>Well, what I was talking about here was what constitutes a SB over the
>longer run, in the bigger picture, in a class that's in major transition
>right now. On your current definition, that's not really true. There are
>base machines that aren't allowed in any other class beside SB in the AMA,
[snip] I'll say it again. "Why is this so hard to understand".
There are SBK regs in the USA. The AMA allows machines and riders who
are eligible for non-SBK regs to compete in SBK to fill the grid.
Although these bikes meet the SBK regs they also meet the regs for
lesser championships with tighter controls. Thus they are *not* SBKs.
They're SS1000 or SS750 or FX or whatever that are being allowed to race
to fill the grid because there's not enough *real* SBKs on their own.
The AMA is not alone in this. BSB has done the same and some of the
privateer cup bikes are dubious. But they choose to compete in a
parallel championship run concurrently in the same race. World Endurance
also does this.
BTW. A typical BSB weekend last year consisted of a two day meeting.
Practice and qualifying on the first day, all races on the second.
- SBK*2
- SS600
- 125GP
- Superstock 1000
- Yamaha 600 cup
- One or more filler races
Very few (possibly no) riders compete in more than one class. No bikes
appear in multiple classes.
Mark N
> It's like this weird spiral or strange attractor where someone says "The
> AMA is the best in the world and it's riders are the best in the world".
What I said was, "But I disagree that the guys riding toward the back of the
GP pack are better than and riding harder than all but the very best in the
AMA. I would put Mladin, the Bostroms, Roberts, Yates, Duhamel up against
DeGea, Burns, Aoki, Pitt, Jacque any day" in response to "it's easy to
dismiss everyone below 5th that you simply don't see on tv. But those guys
have been riding faster and closer to the edge than all but the top 2 or 3
in the National championships". A bit different, isn't it? I just wanted to
point out that, as good as MotoGP has gotten this year you would have a hard
time claiming the slowest guy in the class is as fast or faster than the
fastest guys in the top national championships, or even close to that.
> Someone (usually me) points out that a)we'll never know because we never
> see them and they never race against anyone else.
They never race against anyone else? Never? What does that mean? Aren't
there AMA grads in the world championships? Don't AMA wildcards appear
regularly at the WSB round at Laguna?
b)the grid of real
> racers and competitive bikes is pretty thin and has been for the last
> few years.
What has thinned over the last few years are the number of factory bikes in
the SB class and that's it. Assuming you mean riders here, how could you
claim "the grid of real racers is pretty thin" if you "never see them"? What
has happened is guys like Hacking, Tommy Hayden, Buckmaster, Spies, Zemke,
et al have ended up racing for the factories in support classes instead of
being on #2 or lesser bikes in SB, but that doesn't mean they're not good.
It just means the factories here are only supporting the guys who can win SB
races today, because of the cost of running a top SB with a top rider, which
is considerable.
c)At least some of the people involved were looking
> un-impressive on their way from world to AMA and judging by results
> don't seem to be lighting the fire there either.
What does that mean? The AMA isn't good because a guy like Bostrom doesn't
have a good year in WSB and ends up back in the AMA, where he can't beat the
guys here? What if he did, wouldn't you argue that a WSB loser ends up a
winner in the AMA, which shows how weak the AMA guys are? Didn't you make
that implication regarding some of Bussei's late season results? Or are you
still talking about guys like Wait and Hale?
> There are SBK regs in the USA. The AMA allows machines and riders who
> are eligible for non-SBK regs to compete in SBK to fill the grid.
> Although these bikes meet the SBK regs they also meet the regs for
> lesser championships with tighter controls. Thus they are *not* SBKs.
> They're SS1000 or SS750 or FX or whatever that are being allowed to race
> to fill the grid because there's not enough *real* SBKs on their own.
> The AMA is not alone in this. BSB has done the same and some of the
> privateer cup bikes are dubious. But they choose to compete in a
> parallel championship run concurrently in the same race.
I still don't think this is a fair representation. It's true that this year
there were some crossover 750SS machines in AMA SB (although they do run on
slicks in SB, not allowed in SS), but more of the Suzukis were 1000s, along
with a few R1s, and the only other class they can run in is FX. Once you get
past the eligible base machines the rules in FX are actually more liberal
than in SB in terms of allowable mods. That situation was temporary and it
doesn't make sense to have two classes so similar. But the slower crossover
bikes were mostly so because of the riders or the budget they have (which
has to support traveling all over a very large country, doing 3-4 day race
weekends, etc.) doesn't allow for massive modification; it's not really
because of crossover rules. And in any case it's not like they are "being
allowed to race to fill the grid because there's not enough *real* SBKs on
their own". They are allowed in because they meet the requirements of the
class and are fast enough to qualify, period. No SB rules were ever modified
to let them in. In the AMA there has never been a rule that disallowed bikes
to enter more than one class. I remember more than 20 years ago Eddie Lawson
racing his Kawi SB in F1, for instance - and doing quite well.
> BTW. A typical BSB weekend last year consisted of a two day meeting.
> Practice and qualifying on the first day, all races on the second.
> - SBK*2
> - Superstock 1000
> Very few (possibly no) riders compete in more than one class. No bikes
> appear in multiple classes.
What is SBK*2? Do rules prohibit bikes appearing in more than one class? Or
are the class rules somehow exclusive? What stops a SS1000 guy from entering
SB? Why don't riders appear in more than one class?
Julian Bond
>"Julian Bond" <julia...@voidstar.com> wrote
>> BTW. A typical BSB weekend last year consisted of a two day meeting.
>> Practice and qualifying on the first day, all races on the second.
>> - SBK*2
>> - Superstock 1000
>> Very few (possibly no) riders compete in more than one class. No bikes
>> appear in multiple classes.
>
>What is SBK*2? Do rules prohibit bikes appearing in more than one class? Or
>are the class rules somehow exclusive? What stops a SS1000 guy from entering
>SB? Why don't riders appear in more than one class?
SBK*2 = 2 races. Typically 35 to 40 minutes. 12.00 and 3:30.
The only obvious overlap of classes would be Superstock 1000 with SBK.
I'm not sure if running the same bike is actually disallowed, but it
wouldn't make a lot of competitive sense as Superstock is pretty much
stock with an exhaust. I vaguely remember that David Jeffries (RIP)
wanted to do this and race in the privateer's cup, but the organiser's
refused as the team was too well funded and against the spirit of the
point of the cup. So I guess the organiser's have effectively made the
formulae exclusive even though there would be no point in entering as
the Superstock bike wouldn't be competitive. The other big factor here
is of course tyres. SBK is unlimited and Superstock is on homologated
road tyres.
There's a point here also that there is no SS1000 formula in the BSB as
the SBK rules for 1000-4s are effectively SS1000. If you imagine that is
that a notional SS1000 is SS600 with the capacity enlarged and hence
allows some fairly substantial tuning.
But the biggest reason is probably timing. With 6 or 7 races on a Sunday
afternoon, if you raced in both SBK races and then tried to compete in
Superstock as well, you're pit crew are going to be really pushed, and
it might not be possible to actually get to the holding area for the
next race in time depending on the exact sequence of races.
Why don't riders appear in more than one class? The classes are very
different and each class is highly competitive. I guess the most likely
would be SBK, SS600 and S1000. Apart from the time issue, it's probably
a question of focus as much as anything. SBK takes a *lot* of setup.
Current SS600 takes quite a bit of setup. Packing all the practice and
races into 2 days means there's not a whole lot of time to do all that.
So even if they are allowed to, nobody does. You could just about
imagine the Ducati teams getting RatBoy (Stuart Easton) and Leon Haslam
to ride their 748 and 998 because of the similarities, but they don't.
And actually there's not that much in common between a SS600 749 and a
full on SBK 998.
Now all this feels like the norm to me and it's how I imagine all the
national championships (AAJR, Aus, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc etc) run
except the AMA. Which is what it always seems to come down to. The AMA
is just different because things in the USA are just different. I still
don't understand why, but it seems to be the case.
Mark N
> The only obvious overlap of classes would be Superstock 1000 with SBK.
> I'm not sure if running the same bike is actually disallowed, but it
> wouldn't make a lot of competitive sense as Superstock is pretty much
> Now all this feels like the norm to me and it's how I imagine all the
> national championships (AAJR, Aus, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc etc) run
> except the AMA. Which is what it always seems to come down to. The AMA
> is just different because things in the USA are just different. I still
> don't understand why, but it seems to be the case.
I don't think it's always been that way most places. Certainly in GP in the
distant past you had riders in multiple classes - guys like Hailwood and
Agostini competed in 250 or 350 while they were racing in 500. Roberts tried
doing 250, 500 and F750 in '78 when he first went over (F750 being in its
own series), and Spencer won the 250 and 500 titles in '85, although that
was certainly a one-off effort based on his getting the best machine in both
classes. I remember Doug Polen winning both the 750 and 400 (F1 and F3?)
championships in AJRR when he went over there in '89, and I don't know that
it's not still done today. A lot of factory guys here have run both SB and
600SS, pretty much the norm, but that's kind of faded away at the same time
SB doubleheaders have become more common. Those bikes aren't all that
similar, but they do it. I know Yates is doing it next year, and likely
Duhamel. A lot of guys do two or even three classes among the non-factory
guys, and almost all of the non-SB factory supported riders do two classes,
on two different machines (crossing over with one bike is pretty much a
privateer thing). With 5 or 6 classes, there's a lot of sitting around over
a 3-day race weekend if you do only one class.
Anyway, it seems like the BSB grid is all SBs because it's essentially
defined that way, and there's no other class to provide machinery anyway.
Here that's not the case, there was two classes with crossover machinery
(750SS and FX), and some of it was pretty fast - guys like Pridmore and Rapp
had finished in the top five in SB on what were essentially or actually
their FX bikes, and at the last round 750SS champ Josh Hayes finished 5th in
FX on his 750SS machine. SS bikes aren't quite as heavily modified here as
in Europe, but comparing SS times at the world rounds at Laguna when WSS ran
here, the AMA bikes are almost as fast, at least with our better guys on
them. I remember one year privateer Mark Miller qualified and raced his
750SS Suzuki in WSB at Laguna - didn't score points, but he put it on the
grid for a world championship Superbike race. And if everyone in FX ran SB
as well, there would have been a very deep field of very fast bikes and
riders (FX factory supported participation in FX runs deeper than in SB),
but not all the bikes are eligible, because some of the FX bikes are too
modified for SB. For instance, the Yamaha R1s source half their frame from
the R7.
In any case, the comparison sort of invalidates your criticism of the AMA,
doesn't it? You pan the AMA SB class because there are bikes there from
other generally slower classes (measured by the fastest guys, and the
fastest guys in the AMA are most certainly in SB), but it turns out that it
doesn't happen in BSB because there isn't really a class to source them
from, or because racing in more than one class simply isn't done over there.
It's not just because BSB has such a deep field of fabulously fast
motorcycles, is it? In the end you're mostly dumping on the AMA "because
it's different", right?
Julian Bond
>I don't think it's always been that way most places. Certainly in GP in the
>distant past you had riders in multiple classes - guys like Hailwood and
>Agostini competed in 250 or 350 while they were racing in 500.
Once upon a time in GP it was reasonably common for people to compete in
multiple races. But the rules were almost always arranged so that the
same bike couldn't race. Hence many people built TZ351's by over-boring
a TZ350 for the 500 class.
>Anyway, it seems like the BSB grid is all SBs because it's essentially
>defined that way, and there's no other class to provide machinery anyway.
>Here that's not the case, there was two classes with crossover machinery
>(750SS and FX), and some of it was pretty fast
Just so I'm clear, bikes built to AMA 750SS, 1000SS and FX are all more
or less also eligible for SBK in the sense that they meet the SBK regs
as well as their original formula? I have to ask this because I don't
believe those classes exist anywhere else in the world although some of
AAJR and World Endurance are similar.
>It's not just because BSB has such a deep field of fabulously fast
>motorcycles, is it? In the end you're mostly dumping on the AMA "because
>it's different", right?
Of course. ;-) Though it's you who keeps trying to compare it to BSB in
this thread. And really "Dumping" smacks of paranoia.
BTW. Looks like we may have Haga on a Monstermob Ducati 999 in BSB next
year. That'll be fun.
Howard Kveck
Julian Bond <julia...@voidstar.com> wrote:
> Looks like we may have Haga on a Monstermob Ducati 999 in BSB next
> year. That'll be fun.
Dunlops or Michelin? Or does it matter any more, at least in terms of
how you ride them? He was amazing on the Yamaha on Dunlops for a while.
--
tanx,
Howard
"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Mark N
> Mark N <menu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Here that's not the case, there was two classes with crossover machinery
> >(750SS and FX), and some of it was pretty fast
> Just so I'm clear, bikes built to AMA 750SS, 1000SS and FX are all more
> or less also eligible for SBK in the sense that they meet the SBK regs
> as well as their original formula? I have to ask this because I don't
> believe those classes exist anywhere else in the world although some of
> AAJR and World Endurance are similar.
750SS, or Superstock as it's known now, was just a 750 version of 600SS when
it started out, and I'm not aware of any changers in the rules (other than
some which apply to 600s in 750). It's amore limited version of world
supersport rules - stock frames, stock wheels, stock forks (with tuned
internals), essentially no internal engine mods, stock intake with tuning
allowed, aftermarket pipes, shocks, external gearing, DOT treaded tires,
replacement bodywork in stock shape, etc. Next year it becomes the new
1000SS, and I'm not aware of any rule changes other than the slick tire
issue that's in the news. And the effort to keep factory SB riders out,
which might mean the only official factory team in the class will be Yamaha,
who have given no indication that they'll do SB next year. I'd guess Erion
will be there, though.
FX is an evolution of the endurance class that used to be in the AMA, and it
became an "anything goes" class. At first it was just 750SS bikes (crossover
again) with Erion Honda CBR900s the main exception. They've done various
tweaks to the rules to keep the big factory SB teams out, like not allowing
anyone to participate who's in the top ten in SB points. There are areas of
broader rules than in SB, such as the frame rules. I believe they now have
to have at least 50% of the frame come from a homolgated model (doesn't have
to be the same model as the engine came from). Graves Yamaha was running an
R1 motor in an R7 frame, but the AMA decided that wasn't legal since the R7
isn't an FX-homologated model (too few imported into the US). So eventually
Graves went to the front half of the frame from an R1 and the back half from
an R7. Anyway, it's essentially been 1000SB for the last few years, with
factory-supported teams or factory teams with 2nd-tier riders (usually
younger guys) running at the front. Next year it drops to 600cc, with 750
twins also allowed. They were talking 330cc non-street two-stroke twins, but
that's been pulled. The rules are essentially the same as before, I believe,
but I haven't checked in real detail. There's a good chance that all the
factories will be involved, but the only one I've seen that's confirmed is
Honda. Erion, I assume, and maybe the big team. I would guess Kawi will be
there, given that their 600 would do better with more tuning. Don't know
about Yamaha, who were a lot better than anyone else in SS this year. What
doesn't make sense to me is factory SB riders in 600SS now, the slowest
bikes in any class. That should be outlawed. Anyway, the new FX is the most
exciting development in the AMA class structure since I've been following
the series - a smaller, lighter, 140-150hp SB, think of the possibilites...
> BTW. Looks like we may have Haga on a Monstermob Ducati 999 in BSB next
> year. That'll be fun.
Shit. I was hoping we might get him over here! Good for you guys, though.For
a while there I had a little fantasy going about Gobert and Haga teaming up
on the new R1. I've been hoping for a world guy to get added here, but I'm
praying it's not Xaus...
Julian Bond
>750SS, or Superstock as it's known now, was just a 750 version of 600SS when
>it started out, and I'm not aware of any changers in the rules (other than
>some which apply to 600s in 750). It's amore limited version of world
>supersport rules - stock frames, stock wheels, stock forks (with tuned
>internals), essentially no internal engine mods, stock intake with tuning
>allowed, aftermarket pipes, shocks, external gearing, DOT treaded tires,
>replacement bodywork in stock shape, etc.
There's a significant difference here. World Supersport rules allow
quite a bit of tuning. So a Ten Kate Honda CBR is a *lot* more powerful
than a stock one.
IIRC it's pretty much like the SBK 1000-4 regs. Camshafts with stock
lift, stock valves, compression from skimming the head or block, stock
but modified pistons, alternate gearboxes. The real limit on tuning is
stock valve gear and stock crank/rods. This sets the rev limit and hence
ultimate power. So a World SS1000, if there were such a thing, would be
more or less an SBK 1000-4.
World Superstock rules are much tighter with essentially *no* engine
tuning beyond an aftermarket pipe.
As for FX, it keeps changing and it feels like the AMA don't really know
what to do with it. A National Formula Libre was a great thing with
heavily tuned 1000s vs nitrous GP250s vs Tularis vs Britten. But when
the factories get directly involved the rules get tighter and it loses
it's way. The problem really is that this sort of formula always ends up
being a test of who can spend the most. Especially now when GP level
forks, brakes, suspension, wheels, etc can be bought over the counter
along with SBK and almost MotoGP engines, if you have deep enough
pockets. So an unlimited 600 formula is an interesting thing until
someone shows up with a $200k supertuned Ten Kate 600 fitted with all
the GP bits and just runs away with the championship.
Mark N
> As for FX, it keeps changing and it feels like the AMA don't really know
> what to do with it. A National Formula Libre was a great thing with
> heavily tuned 1000s vs nitrous GP250s vs Tularis vs Britten. But when
> the factories get directly involved the rules get tighter and it loses
> it's way. The problem really is that this sort of formula always ends up
> being a test of who can spend the most. Especially now when GP level
> forks, brakes, suspension, wheels, etc can be bought over the counter
> along with SBK and almost MotoGP engines, if you have deep enough
> pockets. So an unlimited 600 formula is an interesting thing until
> someone shows up with a $200k supertuned Ten Kate 600 fitted with all
> the GP bits and just runs away with the championship.
The AMA has evolved the class, because endurance wasn't working (ate up too
much track time) and they wanted a class that used large-displacement bikes.
They didn't just want 1000cc SB, since 750cc SB was the featured class and
those bikes had to be the fastest ones. I think the evolution of Japanese
1000cc fours for the street has impacted the class in the same way it's
impacted SB - the bikes got very good, faster, smaller and much lighter, and
eclipsed the 750 class for the street. FX was a bit of a freak show for a
time, sort of in the mold of BoTT, because FZR1000s, ZX9s and GSX-R1000s
weren't exactly race platforms. But those days are gone.
The new class is pretty clearly headed toward 600SB, and it may well be
there in its first year. That's a good thing, it seems to me, since this
class makes a bit more sense as a feature class in a national championship,
compared to somewhat less-modified 1000s, which is where SB is. I think the
150cc edge for twins is about right as well, compared to the 250cc edge in
SB that became so problematical. This applies to the world championship as
well, where the direct comparison to 990cc MGP bikes is an issue for 1000s.
What I'd kind of like to see in the AMA is co-feature SB classes, with the
overall AMA championship going to the rider who scores the most points in
both classes combined, as well as class championships. I think the focus of
the factory teams should be on these two classes and only on these two, with
support and privateer teams and riders in the two SS classes. Heavy factory
involvement in 600SS happened because it's been so important to the
factories to promote their 600s. Well, now they've got an alternative,
better vehicle for that.
dpen...@vtown.com.au
not to finish as the best privateer in the class and proved, not only
in the wet that he was the equal of anyone out there. A pretty good
year on crappy equipment especially after sitting out the previous
season.
>Another season bites the dust like Ruben Xaus in the springtime, and it's
>time once again to rate our favorite combatants. Not necessarily the top ten
>riders in the world, but sort of the best guys who had the best seasons.
>
>1) Valentino Rossi - MotoGP is king now, and he's still the King of MotoGP.
>Another championship, not so close in the end, some truly brilliant and
>spectacular efforts when he had dug a hole for himself, capped by the PI
>win, and he finished stronger than he started. But he was contested for a
>time, by lowly Sete Gibernau at that, unquestionably had the best machine in
>the class, and the assumption of him going down as one of the best of the
>all-time best was shadowed by whispers that "he does make mistakes". Wasn't
>quite like last year in terms of domination, mostly just because there were
>more bikes like Val's on the grid with decent riders in the saddles, but
>still got 9 wins in 16 races and was never off the podium. Those wins moved
>him to fourth all-time, passing Eddie with his PI win, and he's just 24.
>Maybe next year we'll really get to see what he's made of, when he moves on
>to Yamaha, or rather will find out we're already seeing it. But whatever one
>thinks of his machinery advantage, it's awful hard to argue that he wasn't
>the best this year. The contract decision process, which has put rider
>hiring decisions on hold everywhere, just reinforce Rossi's position as the
>assumed greatest, and making the move not only is the best thing that could
>happen to GP but also puts him a step above Doohan, who sat tight at Honda
>his entire career. A very worthy champion.
>
>2) Loris Capirossi - He rode as hard as anyone, got Ducati's dramatic first
>win (courtesy of Rossi's mistake, it must be said), three poles, six total
>podiums, took fourth in points, and didn't even come close to killing anyone
>all season. He's finally delivering on all that promise he's been showing
>for over a decade now, and it seems it's doing it for God and Country that's
>done it for him. If Ducati manages to close the gap to Honda and with Rossi
>ending up on a Yamaha, he just might win that elusive premier class
>championship next year. Even if he has to take out Bayliss on the last lap
>of the last race to do it...
>
>3) Mat Mladin - My position on this choice is that he had an awesome year,
>winning a record-tying ten times and always dominating on his way to a
>record fourth SB title, and now sits only two wins behind Duhamel on the
>all-time list. He didn't have even more wins because of repeated tire
>problems, not finishing on the podium in any position but first until the
>very last race of the year. But he won the championship rather easily
>anyway, in a series that rewards scoring consistency. Those tire problems
>could be viewed as a negative, partially his fault, and I do think all those
>years of the strategic approach on a lesser 750 made him push so hard this
>year when he finally had the goods. Maybe the result was occasional burned
>tires, and also a burned body and mind at Laguna. He was faster than anyone
>else all year, as he was all weekend at Laguna, a truly impressive turn of
>speed that was only partially spoiled by what happened on Sunday. And I
>don't think his Suzuki was inherently massively superior, evidenced by the
>unequal performances of teammate Yates, BSB man Reynolds, WSB pretender
>Lavilla. It certainly could accelerate, but it was a new bike with unknown
>setup requirements, limitations imposed by the new rules, and didn't seem to
>have a top speed advantage. Anyway, given another GP ride at any point over
>the last decade and I believe almost everyone would have him in the top half
>dozen today, where I've ranked him for five years or so anyway. The most
>underrated guy in the world today.
>
>4) Troy Bayliss - He was unflappable in his debut season in MotoGP, had more
>than a few sparkling moments, and took three podiums and sixth in points.
>Too bad about his crash at Philip Island, where he might well have had his
>best result, and which cost him fifth in the championship. Given
>that it's still a Honda series and that he was new to most of the tracks on
>Friday, that's something. As Nicky said when asked recently if anyone in
>MotoGP had amazed him, "There's a lot of guys, but the one guy who's really
>impressed me is Bayliss. No matter where he qualifies he goes to the front
>quick and just stays there, he's impressive". I sure hope age doesn't catch
>up with him before he can reach his limits.
>
>5) Sete Gibernau - The growing Italian-Australian conspiracy broken up by
>a... Spaniard? It pains me to say yes, but the guy did have an outstanding
>season. Never mind that it was probably the death of his teammate that
>made it happen, but he did get four wins, ten podiums, challenged Rossi to
>the end and finished ahead of Biaggi and everyone else. It all came together
>for him this year, at age 30 and in his 7th year in the class. If Rossi had
>only gone down with an injury he'd have been Alex Criville, 1999. The luck
>of the Spanish has always been with him, of course, and I wouldn't rate him
>this high on raw talent, but he showed what determination, experience and
>all the breaks in the world can do for a guy...
>
>6) Massimiliano Biaggi - Mr. Two-Wins-A-Year gets two more again (now 12 in
>6 seasons in 500/MGP), another top three finish in points, but his excuses
>were starting to sound a bit hollow in the year when he was supposed to
>finally have the goods to show what he can do. Those weren't just excuses -
>I don't think he had the equipment that Rossi and even Gibernau had,
>certainly not even close earlier in the year, and he did make teammate Ukawa
>on the "factory bike" look pretty ordinary. So Max probably got less than he
>deserved this year. But too often he was pressured into making mistakes, and
>in the end he still looked like a very good also-ran who's time is running
>out. As I said last year, still Luca Cadalora, Part Deux. But Rossi's move
>will give him one more chance to toss that label next year.
>
>7) Nick Hayden - He"s right on track for where I still think he's headed,
>the very top of the GP pack. He did his job this year, learning, not
>crashing much, getting a bit faster every weekend, running with the leaders
>by season's end and getting that nice podium at PI on the last lap, He make
>the biggest improvement of anyone over the course of the year, and was very
>consistent about it for a guy so young - none of that fast one week, slow
>the next, in the dirt the next that we've seen from so many other guys,
>something Nick has never shown (although he did push it too far today,
>unfortunately). This course would have him shaping his own bike and winning
>some races in '04, then a serious championship run in '05, and I see no
>reason why he won't stay on course. Rossi's move may force an acceleration
>to that schedule, though, depending on who ends up his teammate. But there's
>no reason to think he won't be mixing it with the contenders (Rossi,
>Gibernau, Capirossi, Edwards, Biaggi and Bayliss, by my early reckoning) all
>season long.
>
>8) Colin Edwards - Pretty clearly the Best of the Rest in GP, consistently
>the fastest of the guys fated to ride also-ran Aprilias, Suzukis, Kawasakis
>or Protons in MotoGP. The year started well, a 6th at Suzuka, and ended
>well with an 8th today, but not much in between. My Number One in '02 drops
>this far only because he's new to the series and had to ride true crap all
>year, so didn't have any skins on the wall to make his case, and he got
>tired of battling the jackhammer as the season closed out. He deserved
>better than 13th in points (behind Jacque, for chrissakes). But he is a true
>ball of fire (and not Aprilia-style), he's headed to Honda now, so we can
>put it down to a learning year and we'll get to see what Colin can really do
>in '04. The only question left is, how good will his Honda be, a "Rossi
>bike" or a "Biaggi bike"? In any case, I expect I'll be moving him back up
>this list a year from now.
>
>9) Neil Hodgson - He did what was expected, winning the WSB title with ease,
>and claimed it in impressive style, starting the year with a record-tying
>nine straight wins. But in the end the achievement rang a bit hollow,
>because he really didn't have much competition, because he went bit flat
>after his Silverstone double midyear, lowlighted by being handed his hat by
>the BSB boys at Brands, and ended the year on the ground. Maybe
>understandable, considering his work was essentially done and MotoGP lay in
>his future, but he didn't even win as many races as Bayliss did last year,
>and Troy had to deal with Edwards. Too bad he wasn't pushed harder this
>year, because the deep end of MotoGP on a year-old (assumedly) Duc will
>certainly test his mettle next season.
>
>10) Marco Melandri - I have to include a Yamaha guy, don't I? The thing is,
>he looked very good on occasion (particularly PI where he led, although he
>probably was riding over his head in the end), looking like maybe he's the
>real thing, and that's about the most you could expect for a 21-year-old in
>his first year in the class and on a bit less than a class-leading machine.
>
>Honorable Mention:
>James Toseland - Still very much on the rise, he got that first win this
>year and finished third in the championship. He slipped some late in the
>season, though, probably the only thing that kept him off the bottom of my
>RotY list. As much as it would have pained the folks in Blighty, I wish he'd
>been destined for the AMA, where he'd fit right in with the fast crowd here.
>A good choice by Ducati, but is WSB a dead end for him? His hope has to be
>that Ducati has him on the same path as Bayliss and Hodgson, but he may be
>going down with a sinking ship.
>Shakey Byrne - Yes, he dominated BSB and won both WSB races he entered. But
>he was on the best Ducati in a Ducati series, just another in an
>increasingly long line of Ducati BSB champions, and had everything going his
>way at Brands. So is he another Bayliss or Hodgson, or is he just another
>IoM hero in the making? And does he have anywhere to go to show us?
>Manuel Poggiali - he's 250 GP champion and did it in his first year, so you
>can't leave him out entirely. But he's also on the factory Aprilia and
>250 simply isn't what it once was, so I can't declare him a world beater
>yet. Still, one look at my top ten reveals more than a couple of his
>predecessors, so...
>Roberto Rolfo - Roby's the guy in 250 who should be mentioned, hanging in
>all year on the slower Honda and finishing a fairly close second, courtesy
>of that fine 2nd win at PI. Aprilia took 6 of the top 7 positions in the
>championship and 14 wins in 16 races, and it was Rolfo who prevented the
>sweep, in part by finishing every race. And he's a real Italian, too...
>
>Also worth mentioning:
>Makoto Tamada - Some very impressive showings as a world rookie, but he was
>on a Honda of unknown quality (remember, he is Japanese) and who knows if
>the Bridgestones actually gave him an edge at times (particularly Motegi)?
>Too many have been down his path and never did much of anything, so I can't
>accept he's entirely for real yet. But looks like a nice start.
>Eric Bostrom - I still think he's top ten material, where I had him last
>year. But luck ran against him, the year just didn't work out like '02 did,
>he doesn't look any closer to a world ride now, Kawasaki hasn't yet
>confirmed that they're entering an AMA SB in '04, and to top it off he even
>lost the Best Guy Racing On Crap title to Edwards. Or did they retire that
>award to KRJR?
>Kurtis Roberts - Well, he finally won a SB race (two, actually), was the
>best of the Honda men and looked as fast as anyone late in the year, and it
>seems (at least to him) that he's headed for MotoGP. Appears to be coming of
>age, but maybe he's just the Ruben Xaus of the AMA, and that's not saying
>much. We'll see next year, I guess, but I have a hard time believing it will
>be with anyone but the old man - American Honda has moved on, I can't
>believe Honda, Yamaha or Ducati in GP would sign him, and where else is
>there?
>Frankie Chili - Going out in style, he was fast all year on the private
>Ducati and actually won a race. One of the few things WSB had going for
>itself this year.
>
>Not really worth mentioning:
>Alex Barros - What the hell happened?! I've crapped on him for years, you
>guys almost convince me he's for real late last year, I predict him for
>second in class this year (holding my nose all the while), and then nothing,
>a 9th in the championship. He finished behind Checa and tied in points with
>Nakano among other Yamahas, and the last time he finished lower was way back
>in '92 on the Cagiva. Well, he did get one podium, which is more than anyone
>else on a Yamaha did this year. But really...
>Kenny Roberts - The biggest drop on my list, all the way from fourth last
>year (I had Barros in 6th). The problem is, not only didn't he do anything
>on that piece of crap, which is completely understandable, but he complained
>constantly, was outridden by his teammate much of the time and didn't even
>seem to be trying just as often. Although he did finish stronger, a 9th and
>11th in the last two races. Maybe he does still have what it takes (I think
>he does, btw), but who really cares at this point? Living proof of what a
>terrible bike can do to a guy.
>Ben Bostrom - You gotta believe he's due for a great '04 because every time
>he gets down he manages to save his career somehow, reminding people of his
>promise. Well, he's never been quite this low before, so...
>Carles Checa - So he gets the top seat in his fifth year on the factory team
>and once again he fails to deliver anything meaningful, not even a podium.
>He took 7th in the championship (at least he gets to keep his number, if not
>his ride!), and the last time he did worse was an 8th in '97. Yes, the
>bike's not quite as good as the Hondas and probably the Ducatis, but he
>didn't really do that much more than Nakano, Melandri, even Jacque, and
>there was talk late in the year of Yamaha buying out the rest of his
>contract, seemingly confirmed by the expected Rossi deal at Fortuna. Of
>course, there was also talk of him signing on with Repsol Honda - in GP the
>more things change...
>Ruben Xaus - Third year on the factory Ducati team, on one of the two
>clearly best machines in WSB, and his first half, when it mattered, looked
>like this: 12 races, 0 wins, 6 podiums, 2 DNFs (Hodgson had 11 wins and a
>2nd). No further comment necessary - probably the most overrated guy in the
>world today. But he may end up in MotoGP anyway - gee, I wonder why?
>Tohru Ukawa - Did anyone really believe this guy actually deserved a factory
>Honda? (I had to take one last shot!) Fittingly he ends it in the dirt -
>bye-bye, Son of Itoh...
>Anthony Gobert - Anthony who?
dpen...@vtown.com.au
wrote:
>
Mladin went home to Australia for two
>years, where he probably made shit, then to the AMA where he made more. But
>he probably didn't get to good WSB-level salary until at least his return to
>Suzuki in '98, and perhaps not until he was champion. Started making very
>good money then, but he's never indicated that he turned down a good WSB or
No but he has said he'd rather get paid to ride than pay to ride...