V:TES to Cease Production
OrgPlay
After 10 years back at White Wolf
Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
Atlanta, GA September 10, 2010--Vampire: The Eternal Struggle™, the
trading card game published since 2000 by White Wolf Publishing Inc.,
has survived the lifetimes of many Methuselahs, been a terrifying
vehicle for their manipulative ways and a true forum for the creation
of lifelong friends and bitter enemies since its launch in 1994.
White Wolf has been increasingly unable to continue serving the V:TES
community in the way that the game requires. After an exhaustive
search for possible alternatives to extend V:TES, one of the oldest
collectible card games will be returning to torpor once more. White
Wolf sought out many possible licensors to take over the franchise but
an accord could not be met. V:TES will finish the year strongly with
the North American Championship at The Grand Masquerade in New Orleans
and the European Championship in Paris and continue to support
tournaments for another year, even in the absence of new expansions or
reprints of old sets. The strength of V:TES has always been in its
devout following, and White Wolf trusts that while the game may
retreat from the light for the forseeable future, it will never suffer
a final death.
Direct Inquiries to:
Oscar Garza, Organized Play Director
White Wolf Publishing
org...@white-wolf.com
On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
echia...@yahoo.com
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
> community in the way that the game requires. After an exhaustive
> search for possible alternatives to extend V:TES, one of the oldest
> collectible card games will be returning to torpor once more. White
> Wolf sought out many possible licensors to take over the franchise but
> an accord could not be met. V:TES will finish the year strongly with
> the North American Championship at The Grand Masquerade in New Orleans
> and the European Championship in Paris and continue to support
> tournaments for another year, even in the absence of new expansions or
> reprints of old sets. The strength of V:TES has always been in its
> devout following, and White Wolf trusts that while the game may
> retreat from the light for the forseeable future, it will never suffer
> a final death.
>
> Direct Inquiries to:
> Oscar Garza, Organized Play Director
> White Wolf Publishing
I am saddened to hear this. Is there anything that the playerbase can
do to encourage some third party to pick up the license? Letter/
Internet campaign? Lobbying? Anything?
Or maybe once more sets go out of print and go for ridiculous amounts
on eBay, some company will realize that there's still plenty of demand
for product (whether new or reprinted)?
OrgPlay
wrote:
I'd sign a petition, I tell you what. The licensing for this game is
complex, however.
Ben Swainbank
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
>
That is sad news.
My thanks go out to Oscar, and White Wolf, and to LSJ for their years
of support of the great game.
And thank you for telling us the news directly and removing ambiguity
about the status of VTES.
-Ben Swainbank
echia...@yahoo.com
I realize there may be NDA and corporate issues that limit how much
info you can share.
But what information can you provide (that may help fellow players in
figuring out the best strategy on what to do next)?
- How complicated is the licensing? (I understand that WotC has the
mechanic and White Wolf has the theme).
- What companies may be interested (and just need a push from the
players)? What companies have definitely shown they are not
interested?
- What were the impasses for the previous talks with potential
licencees?
Obviously, don't tell us anything you're legally prevented from doing
so. But any other insights could be greatly helpful. Thanks.
_angst_
It's going to be a long night.
Atleast I will be able to spend all Saturday and Sunday doing what I
love... playing V:tES...
Alexander Ek
VEKN Prince of Gothenburg, Sweden
Former Swedish National Coordinator
Former V:tES EC Organizer
OrgPlay
There's not much I can say other than we tried very hard and talked to
a lot of potential partners. Sharing a game through licensing makes it
complicated, as you state.
LSJ
decade of expansions and support.
And thanks to all the players, who have more to do with this game
being as great as it is than anything else.
wumpus
>
> On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
> decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
> sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
> and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
> Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
Dang. Now I'm wishing I could make it to the NAC to see 'er off in
style.
Is there any possibility that we, the playerbase, could somehow
commission one 'final' set from White Wolf to let LSJ and the design
team fill out group 5 (leaving group 6 to the Bloodlines would
probably be best) and put any final touches on the library card set
he'd like to get in before the lights go out?
I'd personally be willing to front a significant amount to see this
happen, and one of V:tES' strengths is that it has a lot of older
(more 'mature', hah!) players who have real jobs and income.
Thanks for crushing the rumors and giving it to us straight.
Alex
mhi...@gmail.com
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
I just want to say thanks to Oscar, LSJ, and all the great people I've
met playing the game.
And I suspect that after WW's final year of tournament support, the
VEKN will exist in some grassroots form for years to come. I look
forward to that.
-Matt H.
John Flournoy
> Is there any possibility that we, the playerbase, could somehow
> commission one 'final' set from White Wolf to let LSJ and the design
> team fill out group 5 (leaving group 6 to the Bloodlines would
> probably be best) and put any final touches on the library card set
> he'd like to get in before the lights go out?
>
> I'd personally be willing to front a significant amount to see this
> happen, and one of V:tES' strengths is that it has a lot of older
> (more 'mature', hah!) players who have real jobs and income.
You're not the first person to suggest this over the last few months,
Alex. The primary factor will be if LSJ is interested in continuing to
work on it, and once that's determined I'm sure a collective effort
can be arranged.
> Alex
-John Flournoy
The Lasombra
> commission one 'final' set from White Wolf
No, we don't spend that kind of money.
> to let LSJ and the design team fill out group 5 (leaving group 6 to
> the Bloodlines would probably be best) and put any final touches
> on the library card set he'd like to get in before the lights go out?
Other games have survived with internet only sets, with tournament
rules, etc. online.
Star Wars, for example, has regular releases that players print up
themselves, put in a sleeve in front of a genuine SW card, and play in
tournaments.
> I'd personally be willing to front a significant amount
"a significant amount" ?
7,000 tournament players x $100 = $700,000
That would certainly cover a print run and new art, etc.
We couldn't even get 100 players to email White Wolf for a better
website at the beginning of the year. (After emailing every national
volunteer and every regional volunteer in the US personally.)
In my experience, you will not get the required participation for the
players to make any difference.
Jozxyqk
Thank you LSJ, for taking the onerous job of rulemonger and designer.
Here's a question:
Is there anything legally stopping you from continuing to design cards,
as "fan sets"? We can play with LSJ-sanctioned proxies in perpetuity.
Can you share the ideas of the expansions that were in the queue?
echia...@yahoo.com
Yeah. While more Bloodlines in Heirs to the Blood was fun, it always
felt a bit odd to jump into Group 6 when there was still plenty of
Group 5 that needed to be filled (especially for the Sabbat clans).
I was also hoping White Wolf might be able to give us one final send-
off (to at least complete Group 5). It's kind of hard to have a sense
of closure when there's this giant gaping hole in Group 5.
Maybe a further possibility might be to take pre-pre-orders. Maybe if
enough people are willing to commit to pre-orders (thus guaranteeing
that White Wolf won't lose money) that it might be economically
feasible to do so.
It would also allow a more sentimental sendoff (since we didn't really
get to do anything special for the 15th anniversary). Plus, with the
players knowing that it would be the last set from White Wolf, the
players could go out of their way to show their support and dedication
(which may then attract a third party to step in).
Chlorix
> > Is there any possibility that we, the playerbase, could somehow
> > commission one 'final' set from White Wolf
>
> No, we don't spend that kind of money.
>
> > to let LSJ and the design team fill out group 5 (leaving group 6 to
> > the Bloodlines would probably be best) and put any final touches
> > on the library card set he'd like to get in before the lights go out?
>
> Other games have survived with internet only sets, with tournament
> rules, etc. online.
>
> Star Wars, for example, has regular releases that players print up
> themselves, put in a sleeve in front of a genuine SW card, and play in
> tournaments.
>
I'm pretty sure that most players only want real cards and NOT
printable online ones.
> > I'd personally be willing to front a significant amount
>
> "a significant amount" ?
>
> 7,000 tournament players x $100 = $700,000
>
> That would certainly cover a print run and new art, etc.
>
> We couldn't even get 100 players to email White Wolf for a better
> website at the beginning of the year. (After emailing every national
> volunteer and every regional volunteer in the US personally.)
>
> In my experience, you will not get the required participation for the
> players to make any difference.
Players were able to do it with Dragon Dice.
http://www.sfr-inc.com/dragondice.htm
I see no reason why VTES players cannot do the same.
John Flournoy
One impediment to following that example: Only one company held the
rights to Dragon Dice.
Buying a license for a game that is owned in pieces by different
companies is a lot harder to do.
-John Flournoy
Robert Goudie
> LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Thanks to White Wolf for the original license and then this last
> > decade of expansions and support.
> > And thanks to all the players, who have more to do with this game
> > being as great as it is than anything else.
>
> Thank you LSJ, for taking the onerous job of rulemonger and designer.
I was gonna ask him that stuff privately. :) But since you got the
ball rolling....
Scott was Rulemonger long before WotC or WW ever put him on the
payroll. If he would be willing do keep doing the job I think it
would be in everyone's best interest to beg him to continue on.
> Here's a question:
> Is there anything legally stopping you from continuing to design cards,
> as "fan sets"? We can play with LSJ-sanctioned proxies in perpetuity.
>
> Can you share the ideas of the expansions that were in the queue?
My thinking is that they probably could stop us from doing fan-based
design if they wanted to but that they probably wouldn't care. I can
only imagine how much fan-based old WoD stuff exists. As long as
nobody is making any money I doubt they would stop us. There are
great websites out there than can print V:TES cards (artscow.com) for
us. (For personal use I did a playing-card deck with crypt backs.).
As a way to save money, one local player suggested two-sided V:TES
cards and we could sleeve them.
There are probably enough artists, etc.out there to allow us to make
new card art.
There's been talk about replacing the WW player ratings for years.
Maybe this announcement will spur that on.
If there's enough interest I'd love to see us players take over the
game again.
-Robert
Peter Christensen
>
> On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
> decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
> sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
> and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
> Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
This is indeed very sad news.
But I want to thank everyone for making this the best game in the
world.
I'll be saying a lil' prayer for the hopeful continuation of V:tes
tonight...
Cheers
Peter
dcherryholmes
put hard work into keeping the game going all these years. Just
speaking for myself, we've weathered this before, all my cards still
"work," and V:TES will keep going in Durham, where it's mostly old
players playing with old cards anyway. Definitely grim news in terms
of attracting new players, but I definitely have no plans to give up
my favorite hobby.
XZealot
While it is unfortunate that we are taking a hiatus from production
for VTES, we all must remember that we have been here before, and we
returned stronger than ever. When VTES was discontinued before there
were only 4 sets available, and, honestly, 2 of those were not really
competitive. Now we have 7 different sets that are still available at
original asking price online where everyone as access to them.
Tournaments and playgroups can still operate and we can still
organize. And, we especially can still have fun.
So even as the sun sets on production for VTES, we must remember that
this is a game about creatures of the night. Vampires are there most
effective when people think that they don't exist.:)..
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Miguel Cortes
wrote:
Here in Chile we are very sorry too. Though we are a small community,
we'd like to help in anything we can to find a way to keep the game
going on. Personally, i'm not giving up the game and gonna keep
organizing tournaments while interested players exists.
Greetings to everyone.
Miguel Cortés R.
NC Chile
The Lasombra
>I'm pretty sure that most players only want real cards and NOT
>printable online ones.
Well then, it is good that you are here to speak for them.
>> In my experience, you will not get the required participation for the
>> players to make any difference.
>Players were able to do it with Dragon Dice.
Good for them.
wumpus
On Sep 10, 1:10 pm, The Lasombra <thelasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there any possibility that we, the playerbase, could somehow
> > commission one 'final' set from White Wolf
>
> No, we don't spend that kind of money.
I suspect that you are right, but it can't hurt to find out both what
sort of numbers are required, and how many would be willing to provide
seed money (and/or pre-orders, as Eric suggests).
When Mythos CCG went under, they apparently had a set all designed,
minus art, waiting in the wings. According to sources at Chaosium
$30,000 - $40,000 was all that would have been needed to get it out to
the public.
> > to let LSJ and the design team fill out group 5 (leaving group 6 to
> > the Bloodlines would probably be best) and put any final touches
> > on the library card set he'd like to get in before the lights go out?
>
> Other games have survived with internet only sets, with tournament
> rules, etc. online.
Sure, and that's a decent option for V:tES, I agree.
> Star Wars, for example, has regular releases that players print up
> themselves, put in a sleeve in front of a genuine SW card, and play in
> tournaments.
>
> > I'd personally be willing to front a significant amount
>
> "a significant amount" ?
>
> 7,000 tournament players x $100 = $700,000
I was thinking a more significant amount - in the low thousands -
assuming that I could minimally expect to make my money back if the
print run sold out. I don't know if there are a few dozen other V:tES
players with similar financial wherewithal, but I'm sure that a
significant amount of players would preorder to the tune of $60+
each. And we don't know how much up front support it would take to
make this a secure proposition for White Wolf - presumably
significantly less than $700k.
> That would certainly cover a print run and new art, etc.
>
> We couldn't even get 100 players to email White Wolf for a better
> website at the beginning of the year. (After emailing every national
> volunteer and every regional volunteer in the US personally.)
True, but the stakes here are higher, both in terms of risk and
reward. (Given the web site's track record, most people probably
thought they were just pissing in the wind.) It seems at least worth
inquiring.
> In my experience, you will not get the required participation for the
> players to make any difference.
There's certainly been enough volunteer participation in V:tES through
the years to make me at least a little optimistic. But there's always
online sets, as you say, as a fallback.
Alex
RoddPrime
Did I wake up to April 1st? This is all very sad indeed.
Like everyone else thank you Oscar, LSJ, and every other volunteer and
Prince who made the game what it was.
I honestly don't expect the game to rise like it did before with the
economy where it is and all the legal complexities. Perhaps a new
game, but who would jump on a new game with all the card we already
have?
Too bad really, but it will end up like Netrunner and similar games
where sale still go strong on third party sites, etc. And for now at
least I will continue to play.
extrala
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
believe this. What a sad, sad day for us VtES players ..
As other pointed already out, many thanks to those who made this game
(LSJ, Robert Goudie, Oscar Garza, and also White Wolf), and even more
thanks to all those who supported this game with so much effort like
The Lasombra, Robyn, Ben Swainbank, .. to name a few.
Best Regards, Ralf
====================
http://extrala.blogspot.com
ira...@gmail.com
>
> On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
> decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
> sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
> and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
> Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
I just wanted to echo the comments here in thanking Oscar, LSJ, Robyn,
The Lasombra, and many other volunteers who have done so much to keep
the game going. I like Norm's point that we've been here before, and
it's quite possible that production will return again.
It seems to me that we can continue playing for many years to come.
Ira
Damnans
I can't believe this is happening in these circumstances (where VTES
is selling so well, apparently), even though I know I am missing a lot
of infomation about this decision.
Needless to say that I will keep promoting the game as usual, and
wherever my help is needed.
> On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
> decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
> sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
> and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
> Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
Thanks Oscar for your dedication to VTES. I hope you can buy me a
drink in Paris too ;)
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
http://iuturna.sorcery.net (IRC channel: #vtes)
Jay Kristoff
>
> > I am saddened to hear this. Is there anything that the playerbase can
> > do to encourage some third party to pick up the license? Letter/
> > Internet campaign? Lobbying? Anything?
>
> > Or maybe once more sets go out of print and go for ridiculous amounts
> > on eBay, some company will realize that there's still plenty of demand
> > for product (whether new or reprinted)?
>
> I'd sign a petition, I tell you what. The licensing for this game is
> complex, however.
I request, as a gift to the players, that CCP/White Wolf simplify and
cheapen the licensing for V:TES by relinquishing any financial rights
they have in the matter of licensing the game to a new company.
sincerely,
Jay Kristoff
V:EKN Prince of Columbus, OH USA
Ashenbach
crypts...
Thank you all the staff of White Wolf and WotC, and all the players in
the world that contributed to create and improve the best CCG in all
the time.
Keep bleeding!!!
Craig Hartman
Think you fuckers can kill my game, huh?
While I wasn't around when the first door closing occured, you can bet
your as I'm 100% behind the community to power through this one. I am
still a prince. I will still be holding tournaments. I will maintain
my weekly playgroup. I will purchase loads of cards from ship
jumpers.
I'm not exactly sure as to the specifics that went on when you guys
saved vtes last time, but I know that if we could set up our own
player registry and maintain our own stats that will certainly keep
our tournaments running smoothly.
Alison22 Jewell
sleeve. Just when our playgroup was starting to show some signs of
life and growth a blow like this lands.
It would be really good if the WotC and WW would find some way to make
the licensing easier for another entity, but I doubt that would happen
without pushing up the licensing price which is a shame either way.
I do hope we see VTES rise again. If the Antediluvians can manage it,
so can we.
The Lasombra
>it can't hurt to find out both what
>sort of numbers are required
I have.
The players don't spend that kind of money.
One of us needs to win the lottery to get WotC & WW to agree to a new
producer. This is not a small company running short on cash. CCP is
doing wonderfully, they are simply choosing to continue with their
best products, which as a company, they should.
salem
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
...
Big thanks to LSJ, Oscar, and all who kept it alive for all these years.
I'm actually quite emotional about this announcement. Been playing since
'94.
Although I must say I look forward to the players taking back everything.
Robyn did what she could, but she was working with broken tools so there's
only so much you can do with that.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
Wookie813
touch) for helping me "live the dream" and get a piece of original art
on an official card.
By the way, I have yet to actually SEE an official printed copy of
Toy. Are they out there?
Kaze Arashi
What the Hell,
Only I can say, is that I love this game so much.
Supported VTES since 1997. Missed so much World of Darkness and VTM
when the end came. And septembe 10, 2010 will be from this moment the
day gehenna realy come true.
I am a player and prince and realy spend a lot of money in this game.
Buyed 4 booster displays and 1 deck dysplay of HTTB, 2 boosters
displays of KoT, 1 booster display of LoN, a lot of tournament prize
kits and a assorter amount of booster of various editions in the past
8 months (in that 13 years playing, could not say how much money have
spended). "And remember that we don't have a distributor here in
Brazil."
Will keep playing. Will keep organizing tournaments. If web based
editions become the solution in the future, have a lot of ideas and
the tools for custom made cards already exist.
Thanks to LSJ, Robin, Oscar and all. And I would like to thanks to
Mark Rein·Hagen and Richard Garfield.
Thanks Guys.
______________________________
Kaze Arashi - Wiliam Fonseca
Malkavian Antitribu
Sabbat Priest
VEKN Prince #623
x...@pacific.net.sg
Is it in the millions?
If it's about a couple of 100ks, who knows?
(T.T)
Malone
> One of us needs to win the lottery to get WotC & WW to agree to a new
> producer.
That, in fact, is exactly my plan.
chedcan
meaning now with today's sad announcement.
Shout out to all who have contributed to make my lifetime favorite
hobby prosper over the years. They've been cited many times over this
thread.
Oscar was right when talking about VTES forging friendships. The game
is great but it's the people playing it and enjoying the mutual
company that made it what it was for me. I know I'll still play with
my local playgroup for years to come, keeping the fort and organizing
the occasional competitive event and attending the ones of
neighbouring domains who'll have survived this second gehenna.
If I had one wish, It would be to be able to make it to the NAC this
year and get the opportunity to say a probable last "Hi" to "foreign"
players I have met and come to respect as both great persons and
methuselahs over the course of my tournament career: Ben Peal, Jay
Kristoff, Robyn and David Tatu, Matt Morgan, Orian Gissler, Jeff
Thompson, Darby Keeney, Ben Swainbank, Johannes Walsh, Normand Brown
and not forgetting Oscar nor LSJ. Sadly, for lack of a valid passport
(mine is expired, I just re-re-rechecked), I'll very sadly have to
pass on that free drink in New Orleans.
Je tire ma révérence en vous souhaitant tous longue vie.
Christian Chénard
VEKN prince of Gatineau, Qc. Canada
The Lasombra
>Is it in the millions?
>If it's about a couple of 100ks, who knows?
1) You are dealing with 2 multi-national corporations.
2) You must pay their fees and have enough to produce product in a
quantity to make them believe that it won't be a one time release.
3) You have to have a way to distribute the cards to recapture your
money.
There isn't a association of players that will be able to make this
work. The money, connections, and audience aren't there for this
game.
There are still ridiculous quantities of past sets sitting in
distributor warehouses that aren't moving. You aren't going to get
distributor buy-in for a new company pushing a new set, so you'd be
restricted to your online player base. Your online player base has
already proven that it can't keep the game going at a sufficiently
profitable pace.
A VTES player is more likely to win the lottery than they are to
convince Hasbro and CCP that they can make this work.
You have my best wishes in your attempts to do both.
x...@pacific.net.sg
I agree with the difficulty.
But Licensing has always been about Minimum Guarantees and royalty
rates. It's just business at the end of the day.
So I assume the performance of Vtes as a business is either too good
that the companies are asking for a guarantee that neither can accept,
or so bad that it isn't even worth investing in at all.
Who knows, maybe we'll find a way eventually. We have an eternity to
figure it out ya?
(!.!)
Janne Hägglund
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
My reply: http://starwarsnoooos.ytmnd.com/
Somehow it seems perfectly appropriate that I read this news on the morning
of September 11th...
HG
Tetragrammaton
OrgPlay wrote:
> On Sep 10, 3:23 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sep 10, 2:17 pm, OrgPlay <orgp...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> V:TES to Cease Production
>>> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>>
>>> V:TES community in the way that the game requires. After an
>>> exhaustive search for possible alternatives to extend V:TES, one of
>>> the oldest collectible card games will be returning to torpor once
>>> more. White Wolf sought out many possible licensors to take over
>>> the franchise but an accord could not be met. V:TES will finish the
>>> year strongly with the North American Championship at The Grand
>>> Masquerade in New Orleans and the European Championship in Paris
>>> and continue to support tournaments for another year, even in the
>>> absence of new expansions or reprints of old sets. The strength of
>>> V:TES has always been in its devout following, and White Wolf
>>> trusts that while the game may retreat from the light for the
>>> forseeable future, it will never suffer a final death.
>>
>>> Direct Inquiries to:
>>> Oscar Garza, Organized Play Director
>>> White Wolf Publishing
>>> orgp...@white-wolf.com
>>
>> do to encourage some third party to pick up the license? Letter/
>> Internet campaign? Lobbying? Anything?
>>
>> Or maybe once more sets go out of print and go for ridiculous amounts
>> on eBay, some company will realize that there's still plenty of
>> demand for product (whether new or reprinted)?
>
> I'd sign a petition, I tell you what. The licensing for this game is
> complex, however.
I second every thanks and share the most of the thoughts and impression
expressed here by many people (as well as thanking again you Oscar, and Lsj
and the VEKN volunteers for keeping up with this game).
Honestly, after 15 years playing this game, 10 as organizer
and the last three so far as national coordinator, i must say that this is a
real shame
I can remember well , three years ago, Mike Tinney's letter posted here
by yourself on his behalf
(http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/dbf0a832a3ed4e4a/024a474da1221aee?hl=en#024a474da1221aee)
and honestly i must say that nothing changed by that time (speaking of
company approach with the game) to the point that we got now this very
utterful bad news, just three years later.
It will take sometime to reassemble ideas on this, as well as to find a
solution for having the game still officially published by some company
But on the publishing aspect IMHO, WW alone could do that for the already
mentioned cross-licensing issues
best
Emiliano, NC Italy
www.italybynight.org
Frederick Scott
This is your last warning!!!
Vincent
players, many decks to build and games to enjoy. It will become harder
as time passes by with no new expansion. Anyway, thanks to Robyn, LSJ,
Oscar for their hard work, and all the great community. I hope to see
you all at the EC.
Blooded Sand
THANK YOU!!!!
To WW: Well, i was gonna be horrible, but you have produced my fave
game for the last 10 years, so i cannot lambast you too badly.
Cannot say i am surprised though. Lets take this back, and make it a
player controlled game.
Given a wee bit of time, there must be some way to buy the licence
rigths once they nice and dusty.
And i do mean BUY them, not licence them off of WW and WOTC. Because
that is the only not to commit a massive folly.
They have now twice proven they are unwilling, unable and incapable of
keeping a game going that has one of the most rabid fan sets in the
world.
Anyone who cannot make money with a product fans are willing to kill
and die for, well, i will just leave that statement open to your
imaginations.
Mike
nonetheless. V:TES has been a big part of my life since its release in
1994, and I'm not going to let this announcement stop me from enjoying
the game with friends at home, around the country and overseas.
I'm sure many people feel similarly, and I don't expect this to have
much impact on organised play, at least in the short-term. After all,
the game previously endured several years without any official support
or new product. With this in mind I don't think anyone needs to act
too hastily in setting up fan projects or printing new cards of their
own. In fact, I'm sure many of us feel that there hasn't been
sufficient time yet to allow some of the previous sets produced by
White Wolf to be assimilated properly into the metagame.
The lack of new product will however eventually take its toll - as
V:TES disappears from the shelves of games stores around the world it
will become very difficult to draft in new players and attract the
attention of those not yet familiar with the game. If the game is not
picked up in any official capacity by another company then in the long-
term our community would benefit from setting up some kind focus group
for the purposes of making new rulings or releasing new cards (on a
not-for-profit basis). Preferably with LSJ at the helm if he is
willing.
We should probably find some time at the NAC to discuss this in more
detail?
Regards,
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
Jozxyqk
in specific reply to LSJ.
I just want to say a few things:
First, yes, thank you to Oscar for trying to keep his favorite game (no, not
Racer Knights) alive in the corporate eyes. And for all of his dedication
to the game from long before he was getting a paycheck from WWCCP.
Thank you to LSJ, for taking on the task of not only *design* for this game,
but in-place redesign, in order to manage balance issues while keeping nearly
every card ever printed tournamet-legal. And for tolerating Stupid Questions
(which show no sign of stopping).
Thank you to those who keep the VEKN running on a volunteer basis.
Thank you to Prescott Jenner, for pulling me in to the Boston VTES Group back
in 2001 in response to some of my early Stupid Questions on the newsgroup.
And to many people named Ben, Matt, Kevin, Chris, or John (ok, there are more
names than that, but this covers a lot of people) who have been at Boston
VTES with me for the last 10 years.
Thank you to the international community of VTES players who have always
been welcoming, generally friendly, and often entertaining.
But all those thankyous being said, "Ceasing Production" does not mean the
game is over.
The only thing that is stopping here is the physical and legal printing of
new cards.
There are thousands of cards; thousands of potential decks (both Josh-esque
and Tier 1), which haven't even been thought of yet.
Other than, perhaps, Poor Group 6, a hiatus from getting new cards printed
would actually be beneficial to people's creative juices. And, seeing
current circumstances as they are, maybe there will be Final Official Errata
turning all the G6 vampires into G5, I dunno. Why not?
The VEKN is pretty much entirely player-run.
The game design has always been influenced by the players, and "fan
expansions" are totally not out of the question.
The game is still fun.
And, if all else fails, it is about the community.
VTES players love to play games. VTES players are *good* at games in
ways that non-VTES players are not, drawing on the skills unique to this
game. Play your BSG and your Chaos in the Old World and your Dominion with
other VTES players, and you'll have just as rewarding of an experience.
I say don't raise up your torches and pitchforks against CCP and WotC and
RSD over all of this. Continue to play the game, continue to play games
with your VTES mates, and see if you even notice the Cessation Of Production
in the next several months.
Thanks for reading.
Josh "Jozxyqk" Feuerstein
Former Prince of Boston
Asker of Silly Questions
MSPainter of Silly Art
Player of Games
GreenO
...
> On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets.
Well said, and thank you. And I raise my mug to all the people that
make this community work and feel the way it does. V:tES came out when
I was 18 and it's been a back-drop to my life ever since.
So thanks Scott, Robyn, Ben, Ben, Hugh, Jeff, James, Eric, Kevin,
Ralph and everyone who's ever strung a few words together and peddled
a deck on here.
It's not over until the last booster gets opened.
M.
RoddPrime
@ Lasombra.
Oust of curiosity, what does CCP consider it's big money makers? EVE
and WoD (RPG stuff)? I was under the impression for a while that VTES
was a good money make so that is partially why I ask this question.
And are supporting any other card games they have produced still? Or
do they see the market as not in their future vision?
The Lasombra
>Oust of curiosity, what does CCP consider it's big money makers? EVE
>and WoD (RPG stuff)? I was under the impression for a while that VTES
>was a good money make so that is partially why I ask this question.
>And are supporting any other card games they have produced still? Or
>do they see the market as not in their future vision?
Eve Online is the only money maker of significance.
Anything else simply supports itself, which is why the RPG stuff is
all going to PDF. They haven't done an expansion for any other card
game in years.
RoddPrime
Regarding the RPG stuff... is this something in general that is
happening to RPG's or just White Wolf? If it is just White Wolf is
there a particular reason(s) why?
I know CCP is anxious to make World of Darkness into an online MMO and
that was the whole point of the merger from what I understand. Online
is the way of the future for them and many others.
floppyzedolfin
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
Thanks, Oscar, LSJ, Robyn, and all the other volunteers I couldn't
mention in this post without having it far too long, for all your
involvement in this game.
Congratulations for keeping it that wonderful, from the beginning
till .. "so far".
Thanks, Oscar, for being honest with the fans :-)
Janne Hägglund
Wrong. Only booster draft is over when the last booster gets opened. The
game can continue even after that.
HG
wbdaz
My thanks to all the VTES supporters through the years, from LSJ ,
down to everyone that has posted even once on the Newsgroup or any
forum (not that such posters are any worse/better than LSJ).
Then special thanks to LSJ for answering my question, either directly
on a forum/IRC or indirectly by having covered that stupidity before.
And at last, if any of you ever come round Iceland (without bombing
CCP HQ please :o ) you can contact me to try to set up a game.
On Sep 10, 7:17 pm, OrgPlay <orgp...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> V:TES to Cease Production
>
-snip sad news-
librarian
> V:TES to Cease Production
>
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
>
>
I guess this means the sky fell.
best -
chris
John P.
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
>
>
> Direct Inquiries to:
> Oscar Garza, Organized Play Director
> White Wolf Publishing
> orgp...@white-wolf.com
Its not surprising, some saw the the writing on the wall but we all
hoped for a last minute reprieve. Its killing me that I cannot make it
to New Orleans to raise a glass together.
I'll keep travelling for vtes as long as there is vtes to travel to.
I've met soo many people through this game. From Winnipegers that are
now close friends, to dedicated Americans that made me feel welcome at
Week of Nightmares. To crazy Brits, Spaniards, and Frenchmen that I
met at various NACs. And all the good folks in Ohio and those who go
there from other places to make Origins a great event, I hope I'll see
all of you at future events.
Too many memories to give up on this game:
My first Week of Nightmares, arriving at the Ram in Indianapolis to
find Oscar, Duffin? and maybe Morgan there ready to start playing. To
listening to some world-class snorers in the hotel room at the first
NAC in Atlanta. To staggering to the free bar in the hotel in LA. All
good times.
Thanks to Oscar and Scott for all their efforts over the years. And
thanks to the many more volunteers who enhanced this game so much. I'm
too melancholy right now to go on. They can pry my VTES from my cold
dead hands after they steal my last pool counter.
I need another drink
John P.
Winnipeg Demo monkey.
librarian
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:20:11 -0700 (PDT), xys wrote:
>
>> Is it in the millions?
>
>> If it's about a couple of 100ks, who knows?
>
> 1) You are dealing with 2 multi-national corporations.
>
> 2) You must pay their fees and have enough to produce product in a
> quantity to make them believe that it won't be a one time release.
>
> 3) You have to have a way to distribute the cards to recapture your
> money.
>
> There isn't a association of players that will be able to make this
> work. The money, connections, and audience aren't there for this
> game.
>
I agree with all of the above.
> There are still ridiculous quantities of past sets sitting in
> distributor warehouses that aren't moving.
Jeff - Can you e-mail me off list with those distribs who have lots of
past sets, esp domestic (USA) distributors?
You aren't going to get
> distributor buy-in for a new company pushing a new set, so you'd be
> restricted to your online player base.
Without distributors, and by extension retailers, you'll fail. And most
retailers right now are very very wary of CCGS that aren't called Magic,
YuGiOh or Pokemon.
Your online player base has
> already proven that it can't keep the game going at a sufficiently
> profitable pace.
>
> A VTES player is more likely to win the lottery than they are to
> convince Hasbro and CCP that they can make this work.
>
> You have my best wishes in your attempts to do both.
>
Agreed, if you can pull that off, I'll buy some boosters and starters from
you, or from a retailer. But I won't hold my breath...
best -
chris
brandonsantacruz
Too true. How do those hats taste?
I'm not giving up hope on VTES. It's going to be an even harder sell
for new players, but there's good and bad. Maybe when the game rights
depreciate, some game company will pick it up again. In any case,
great playing with you all and I'll be around.
Brandon
Satrapa
storyline tournament.
I won't understand companies that treat licenses as some kind of goods
that can be closed in vault and keep improving on worth. It gives them
nothing not using licenses so it is always better to gain small
amounts of cash from something and not decreasing its worth than
letting it be forgotten and loose all worth (as it is happening to
right for my previous favorite game Chronopia).
Thanks LSJ for your great work with the game, thanks Lasombra for your
site, thanks Extrala for your blog and thanks people who stood behind
Charlotte by Night for Know Your Kindered series. Thanks to all rest
of you people whose work was less visible to me but made whole thing
running.
I hope that it is not over and I will see in few years new printed
cards from new sets.
If anyone will keep creating sets online and run storylines I ask you
one thing. Don't do anything epic or world changing like the last
official storyline.
Azel
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
Boo. I am disappointed. I guess back into torpor VTES fans go. But we
have risen before, we may rise again...
> On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
> decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
> sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
> and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
> Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
Your efforts are definitely appreciated, as fan support would
indicate. And a drink sounds mighty appropriate at this time. The
struggle is dead, long live the eternal struggle!
Patrick Benoit
> V:TES to Cease Production
> After 10 years back at White Wolf
>
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle® Trading Card Game to Cease Production
>
> trading card game published since 2000 by White Wolf Publishing Inc.,
> has survived the lifetimes of many Methuselahs, been a terrifying
> vehicle for their manipulative ways and a true forum for the creation
> of lifelong friends and bitter enemies since its launch in 1994.
>
> White Wolf has been increasingly unable to continue serving the V:TES
> community in the way that the game requires. After an exhaustive
> search for possible alternatives to extend V:TES, one of the oldest
> collectible card games will be returning to torpor once more. White
> Wolf sought out many possible licensors to take over the franchise but
> an accord could not be met. V:TES will finish the year strongly with
> the North American Championship at The Grand Masquerade in New Orleans
> and the European Championship in Paris and continue to support
> tournaments for another year, even in the absence of new expansions or
> reprints of old sets. The strength of V:TES has always been in its
> devout following, and White Wolf trusts that while the game may
> retreat from the light for the forseeable future, it will never suffer
> a final death.
>
> Oscar Garza, Organized Play Director
> White Wolf Publishing
> orgp...@white-wolf.com
>
> worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> unforgettable regrets. It is with a heavy heart that we came to the
> decisions we did regarding V:TES. On the up side, it has been my
> sincere pleasure to have met and worked with as many of you as I have
> and I invite everyone that can make it to the Continental
> Championships to do so I'd like to buy you a drink.
As most has done, I want to say a big thank you for all the work that
Oscar, LSJ and Robyn has done for us.
I really hope the game will continue, and maybe one day someone will
have the 2 points of blood needed to do the "rescue torpor action". It
has already be done, and this is not subject to the NRA rule, so
there's a hope.
Thank you all.
Robert Goudie
> GreenO <mgree...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Sep 10, 8:17 pm, OrgPlay <orgp...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > > On a personal note: I've played V:TES for most of my life and have
> > > worked with it for 100% of my personal career. My experience is filled
> > > with unforgettable memories, unforgettable friends, and few but
> > > unforgettable regrets.
>
> > Well said, and thank you. And I raise my mug to all the people that
> > make this community work and feel the way it does. V:tES came out when
> > I was 18 and it's been a back-drop to my life ever since.
>
> > So thanks Scott, Robyn, Ben, Ben, Hugh, Jeff, James, Eric, Kevin,
> > Ralph and everyone who's ever strung a few words together and peddled
> > a deck on here.
>
> > It's not over until the last booster gets opened.
>
> game can continue even after that.
>
Star Trek does booster draft even now. Their fan-run website has a
place where you select draft style and number of players and then the
system generates random draft decks you can download. The download
has the front and backs of the cards and you can even print booster
pack "wrappers" to put the cards in. Everybody needs to see this
website:
-Robert
Hodgestar
> Eve Online is the only money maker of significance.
> Anything else simply supports itself, which is why the RPG stuff is
> all going to PDF. They haven't done an expansion for any other card
> game in years.
So we just need to implement VtES inside EVE Online and treat the
physical cards as merchandising for the online game?
Next VtES expansion: Kindred of the Oort Cloud!
Schiavo
Simon
svensven
clothes and Lasombra had only 4 Arms of the Abyss, I can validate the
following:
"Tournaments and playgroups can still operate and we can still
organize. And, we especially can still have fun. "
As some of us crusties have said, we've been here before. I remember
just how hard it was getting Sabbat boosters from the original set
(and getting Disarmed was a big deal as they were rare and wonderous).
I like Jay's solution although being near the top of a significant
corporate food chain myself I'd be surprised if they relinquished
control of property to "do the right thing".
I think it was wonderful of WW to take over for so many years and use
expansions to round out holes in clan / strategies. My wife would have
shed a tear to see Ravnos viable (as she was a long suffering Dark
Soverigns Ravnos player).
Thanks to folks like Jay Kristof and the lads/lasses at White Wolf for
extending this game for so long. No other CCG save Magic can boast the
kind of support and longevity V:TES has had.
My only suggestion is to keep playing in card shops, houses, and
conventions, keeping visible until maybe it gets picked up again. It
happened for us once, and it happened for Heroclix just recently.
Matt Latham
HVKreiter
for V:TES. Ladies and Gentlemen, I can tell you that I did indeed
"sqee" and dance around my studio in hysterics. WW was a company that
I had wanted to work for since I was in college, and V:TES one of the
games that I wanted to work on. V:TES (back when it was called Jyhad)
was the one and only game I actually used to play back in the day of
'95.
For only 4 short years, I had the deep pleasure of creating art for
this game. I loved working on every painting and I loved the feedback
that I received. Most importantly, I thank you for welcoming me, very
warmly, into the V:TES family. I loved hanging out with you guys,
whether it was at the NAC or just having you come to my table at
shows.
It was truly a pleasure to create art for all of you. V:TES players
are the best fans a girl could ask for!
All my best,
Heather V. Kreiter
shamansoulstudios.com
Lönkka
>
> It was truly a pleasure to create art for all of you. V:TES players
> are the best fans a girl could ask for!
>
> All my best,
>
> Heather V. Kreiter
> shamansoulstudios.com
Heather,
always loved your art, and purchasing products/original art from you
has been so very uncomplicated so thank you too.
Cheers,
Janne/Lönkka
Stone
sorrow is great indeed. I'd still like to express my deepest gratitude to
LSJ, Oscar, Robyn and all the people, players, volunteers who made such a
fantastic job of keeping VtES alive and growing for so many years.
I had discovered VtES in 1996, a few months before Sabbat (not Sabbat War)
came out IIRC. The mechanics and were rich and complex, and playing the game
was a blast. The bunch of friends I played with had a very limited pool of
cards : only one guy had an Ivory Bow, another one had the only Golconda we
had ever seen, for a long time I never owned a single Thrown Sewer Lid. We
weren't exactly playing by the rules, since we didn't know if Ascendance was
a one-shot card or if you had to gain pool each turn, for instance.
Then there was this strange thing called "the internet" I had learned about,
I was barely able to use e-mail at that time, and in my spare time during
military service I could access one computer of the base that was linked to
the network. I was told about a thingy called "mailing list", whose archives
could be retrieved on a LISTSERV or something. And behold ! We weren't alone
in the world playing VtES. There were seasoned players who came up with
original ideas such as Trojan Uriah, and there was one man who had decided
to bear the burden of competence when it comes to rulings: LSJ.
It wasn't long before I feverishly tried to build up knowledge of those
rulings, asking timidly at first (one of the oldest questions I kept a
record of is "if you Wake, can you still block if sup. Form of Mist is
played ?), then pondering over grave questions during breakfast, like "can
you play Taste of Vitae after a Ritual of the Bitter Rose". And that man
patiently gave answers, year after year.
Then White Wolf took over. The players in Paris were delighted after those
years of efforts spent just to gather players, just for casual games. The
game was alive again, everyone was excited over the release of Sabbat War.
It was also the time to get serious with the organizing of tournaments, and
85 people had gathered in Paris in 2000, including people from UK such as
Barney Baker.
The community grew, some hardcore players started travelling abroad just to
hit tournaments and it became more and more tempting to attend a European
Championship. Now, jumping to the present, we have 150 players
pre-registered to the EC in Paris, we've been running National Championships
for years with a home-made qualifying system, attending a tournament in
Brussels seems like going to the regular game store since it's been done so
many times, etc. And all the European Championships I've had the privilege
to attend were incredible in their organization: Heidleberg, Prague, Palma.
They were all very professional in their structure and in the same time very
friendly in their atmosphere, thanks to the people present.
And just that, meeting players all over the world, making friends with so
many different with apparently just VtES in common : Johannes, Andreas, Alex
Ek, Sten During, Damnans, Emiliano Imeroni, Karel...meeting other equally
committed people to the daunting task of creating and managing a playgroup,
of organizing tournaments with many efforts and receiving mostly complaints
and little to no rewards, sharing fond memories of parties with the
passionated bunch of geek VtES fellows...just that is a success that goes
way beyond the already incredible work that is the game and all its
expansions.
That wouldn't have been possible without the tremendous efforts of the
community and especially without the commitment of LSJ, Oscar, Robyn, Steve
Wieck and all the key figures. They deserve a huge credit for the fantastic
job they've made over all these years. Again, thank you all.
The game certainly isn't dead, even if attracting new players will become
more and more difficult, as has already been said, obviously. I'll keep
running tournaments and contribute to the game as in the past and certainly
hope the future will get brighter. We have a very strong community, so I
have no doubt we'll meet at a NAC/EC/SAC/Asian Championship in the future in
2011. Now crossing fingers for a genius, possibly multi-classed lottery
winner, to get some printing stuff done.
Stone
Shoot The Food
CCG around [ The extended post on this topic will probably be a blog
entry or three.] Now v:tes is a fixed-set CCG again, and that's ok.
Trading, sleeves, and continued lack of set blocks will be the order
of the day. :)
I was completely mistaken about wanting a set release spacing of 12-16
months; that would have left us short quite a few sets when applied
over the past decade.
While I'm kind of sad to see Production cease, I started this game
with $5 Jyhad boxes, so I feel like I've been tossed back into the
briar patch. I'm more concerned about lack of reprints than of new
sets, particularly of Heirs.
As a footnote, it's more than a bit ironic that we had eight or ten
people (that I saw) stop by this year's Dragon*Con tournaments looking
for more info, a demo, or updated information. Without a booth, we
got lots of extra traffic downstairs. This year, I was lucky to
attend at all; next year, work permitting, I'll be prepared.
With regard to IP issues surrounding this, I'm reminded of the saying
"why run a business, when you can run a racket?" This saying
encapsulates "soft" IP business models, IMO.
Amenophobis
Heather, I just want to express how much I love your art in VTES. It's
just awesome.
I hope you will continue to support the playerbase by providing
cardbackers. They are great!
I urge everyone to mail Heather and order them for your sleeves, the
look fantastic! :)