Open Letter to the Players
OrgPlay
Wolf.
Dear Fans,
I've been reading the forums and receiving notes from Johannes and Ben
and you are right to call us out on our shortcomings. The North
American Championship and Lords of the Night edition have not received
the level of support from us that they should have. Even though we've
raced to address the obvious oversights, I still feel as though we're
under servicing these events. Further, I agree that we have not, as a
company overall, given this product and it's fans the level of support
it deserves. As the president of the company, I take responsibility
for this.
VTES' story is an incredible one. This product has survived a name
change, a discontinuation, and intermittent support from us here at
White Wolf. I would not concede that White Wolf has consistently
performed poorly in regards to VTES. We took a financial risk when we
reinvigorated the game, and we've invested well in excess of the
recent EVE marketing budget in the care and feeding of VTES over the
years. I would agree though that we've not really stepped up to the
plate and matched your, VTES fans', efforts. Hiring a member of the
VTES community to support the organized play was a good first step,
but it should not be our last.
I want to also touch briefly of VTES' place in our newly merged
company. CCP, CCP North America and White Wolf have two flagship
brands: EVE and World of Darkness. Within the World of Darkness, the
Vampire brand is our leading brand. Vampire the Requiem, Vampire the
Masquerade and Vampire the Eternal Struggle all have their place as
part of our leading Vampire brand. Currently both Vampire the Requiem
and Vampire the Eternal Struggle are active brands with active
products. Products associated with these two active sub brands receive
marketing dollars, and personnel attention and support. In short, VTES
is a part of our award winning Vampire property and still of great
importance to us. It has not been diminished as part of the merger.
In the weeks following the North American Championship we will be re-
evaluating our approach regarding VTES. Many of the challenges facing
VTES are complicated by the emerging dynamic between online and brick
and mortar retailers. We also need to examine how we develop and
support this product in house along with how we bring it to market. We
need to reach an internal like mindedness on our goals for/
expectations of this product. VTES has a lot of rare qualities that
will make some of these discussions and decisions quite difficult.
These are however the same qualities that we feel make VTES an
exceptional game, and one deserving of our support and attention.
To those that have recognized the improvements we have made in
supporting VTES, I thank you. We will however be looking closely at
VTES and looking at ways we can continue to improve our service to you
guys. In the meantime for those of you at the North American
Championship, share your thoughts and feedback with Oscar. Try to make
your comments constructive, and comprehensive (tell us about the
things you think we're doing right too). I'd very much like for this
next step in the process to be a 2 way street.
Best Regards,
Mike Tinney
President
CCP North America
President
White Wolf Publishing
sathriel
Keep up the good work and improve your shortcomings. No more Katie
McCaskill ;)
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
hey i liked some of her arts :)
Blooded Sand
As one of the biggest moaners, may I also be one of the first to say:
KUDOS!!!!!!!
Responding openly, and formally, is an amazingly sensible move, and
one which i am sure will be appreciated by the majority of players.
Furthermore, the attention that has been paid to our gripes, not just
by this letter but also by effects created on cards to counter current
problems as raised by the community is an encouraging and hope giving
sign. Thank you for giving attention to us, as many felt that there
was no emotional investment from WW/CCP.
My sincere respect and admiration
PS Now how about a pre-emptive anti-S:CE card for qui? :)
Ben Swainbank
> On behalf of Mike Tinney, President of CCP North America and White
> Wolf.
>
Thank you for the open and direct communication. Good to hear you guys
are listening. Thanks for your support of The Great Game.
I look forward to hearing what the future shall bring. I'll be sure to
share my thoughts with Oscar...
-Ben Swainbank
bluedevil
> As one of the biggest moaners, may I also be one of the first to say:
> KUDOS!!!!!!!
Told ya people were listening. ;)
Thanks Oscar, thanks Mike, thanks Johannes and Ben. Thanks to Scott
who, while not mentioned, also has clearly been listening to some of
the suggestions kicked around on this newsgroup.
--
David Cherryholmes
Blooded Sand
> On Sep 19, 3:16 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As one of the biggest moaners, may I also be one of the first to say:
> > KUDOS!!!!!!!
>
> Told ya people were listening. ;)
Shush. You will kill my well developed cynicism. And pessimism
too...... :)
Tetragrammaton
and i'm happy to see that in the plan of the merged
company there's the intention and will to improve the support
on our beloved game.
On the support matter, i really hope we'll able to see a more detailed level
of
support, with special unique prizes for tournament winners, ranging from
unique
promos to other specials.
On the game in itself, it would be great to see VTES develop
further with the idea of an "WoD: the eternal struggle",
thus introducing, at last, other supernatural as crypt cards (imbued were,
actually, a first step into this) -
werewolves would be the ideal in this regard.
I think that, if WW still owes the rights on the images, they could consider
to use the old art of Rage for the "were" crypt cards, implementing a
gnosis/rage
system similar to the one conceived for the imbued with convinctions.
Whatever, keep on with the good work, and thanks to Oscar for posting
the message here
best regards
Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome (NC-in-waiting)
Blooded Sand
> On the game in itself, it would be great to see VTES develop
> further with the idea of an "WoD: the eternal struggle",
> thus introducing, at last, other supernatural as crypt cards (imbued were,
> actually, a first step into this)
Uh, how about not?
Shade
> On behalf of Mike Tinney, President of CCP North America and White
> Wolf.
Great work for keeping up the pressure mate :-)
Teeka
> On the game in itself, it would be great to see VTES develop
> further with the idea of an "WoD: the eternal struggle",
> thus introducing, at last, other supernatural as crypt cards (imbued were,
> actually, a first step into this) -
> werewolves would be the ideal in this regard.
> I think that, if WW still owes the rights on the images, they could consider
> to use the old art of Rage for the "were" crypt cards, implementing a
> gnosis/rage
> system similar to the one conceived for the imbued with convinctions.
>
Please no. Or pretty soon, we can add "incomprehensible to new
players" to the list of "VTES's unique qualities". That sort of cross-
over stuff works fine in roleplaying, because the DM (or whatever) can
tweak all stories, rules, etc. accordingly. But just look at all the
trouble NoR caused. You want that 6 times more? VTES is a complicated
game as is, and too many rules and mechanics = downfall of a CCG, I
say.
Anyway, much thanks to Mike Tinney for letting us know he appreciates
our daily complaining. :-)
Teeka
-hoping CCP will develop a kick-ass VTES computer game with a better
AI than MtG-Duel of the Planeswalkers.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> No more Katie McCaskill ;)
HIRE THIS MAN
XZealot
She does good work. I like alot of her stuff.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Sten During
> On behalf of Mike Tinney, President of CCP North America and White
> Wolf.
>
> Dear Fans,
>
Thank you for acknowledging the fan base of this game. One installment
of concrete input concerning one type of V:TES activities is in the
pipeline, but it'll take us a month to a month and a half to finish it
as we're currently otherwise occupied.
Sten
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Huruem
Regarding the improvment of the support of the game, I've always been
wondering why there wasn't some persons hired by White wolf to work
just here in Europe for the support of the game. The fans have always
been doing a great work, but they also tend not to go forward doing a
lot of demos and stuff, whererease, with a few people getting involved
into that there might be some more extensions of playgroups that could
not have been possible only by the support of the fans.
I know that the most important problem is language here, but I guess
you could easily find someone who speaks 3 languages like French,
English and Spanish and thus would be able to communicate with let's
say 70/80% of the youngsters population in Europe.
Here's just a suggestion, do as you please, and thanks for taking so
much time to listen to the fans and to keep this game up.
Arthur
Tetragrammaton
> On 20 sep, 00:11, "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote:
>> On the game in itself, it would be great to see VTES develop
>> further with the idea of an "WoD: the eternal struggle",
>> thus introducing, at last, other supernatural as crypt cards (imbued
>> were, actually, a first step into this) -
>> werewolves would be the ideal in this regard.
>> I think that, if WW still owes the rights on the images, they could
>> consider to use the old art of Rage for the "were" crypt cards,
>> implementing a gnosis/rage
>> system similar to the one conceived for the imbued with convinctions.
>>
>
> Please no. Or pretty soon, we can add "incomprehensible to new
> players" to the list of "VTES's unique qualities". That sort of cross-
> over stuff works fine in roleplaying, because the DM (or whatever) can
> tweak all stories, rules, etc. accordingly. But just look at all the
> trouble NoR caused.
NoR was a succesfull experiment, imho - it maneged to stir the game
a little, it would need just a some tweaks for balancing issues, other
than that it added a nice variety to VTES games (that is good).
On the other side, i'm not sure if planning to get just to group 6,7,8,9,10
vampires (as the only crypt cards possible, besides imbued) would be a good
design strategy in the long run.
Adding werewolves (then, in the future wraiths, mages etc) could be a real
challenge
for the game design, but it could be very interesting, giving new kind foes
to battle
with new strategies and cards.
best
Emiliano
Bram Vink
You would be wise to pay better attention to the newsgroup.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/0215761714f5cab6
Cheers,
B
Ector
> On behalf of Mike Tinney, President of CCP North America and White
> Wolf.
>
Dear WW and CCP officials,
I have to use this possibility to remind you about the urgency and
importance of developing VTES as a serious TOURNAMENT-LEVEL game and
struggling against the stupid "It's just a recreation" approach that
seriously hinders spreading the game. The game really needs several
things:
* Comprehensive Rules that should be regularly updated (this newsgroup
is good, but a judge cannot just print its contents and take at the
tournament). Somebody should develop the rules that would be
understandable to an average judge - and currently some rules are
really hard-to-understand or even counter-intuitive.
* Judge certification program to ensure that judges are skilled and
professional.
* New Tournament Rules that should really support serious tournaments
(instead of "friendly tournaments" we have now). At least, the game
needs these changes:
a). New Penalty Guidelines instead of the current obsolete ones. A "VP
Loss" penalty should be added between "Warning" and 'Game Loss", since
"Game Loss" is a much more harsh penalty here than in the two-player
games.
b). Decklists should be recommended at all tournaments and *required*
at the high-level tournaments.
c). Tournament prizes should NOT be treated as "part of the final
game". All bribery possibilities that are legal in the finals now
should be treated as "Cheating: Collusion" and penalized with
immediate DQ.
* Prerelease events must be the serious competitive tournaments, not
the farce with starters that is "recommended" now. There are only 4
different starters in each set, and considering the fact that each
starter contains two copies of six vampires and a lot of unique cards,
the "recommended" format leads to a hyper-contested game that
seriously differs from the normal VTES. Prereleases should be the
serious certified events with a pure booster draft.
VTES is definitely *YOUR* game, but I must notice that each sane CCG
producer thinking about his profit tries to organize a serious
tournament play. Yes, there are players that prefer friendly,
"recreational" games, but these people can play their games outside
the tournaments. The more serious tournaments you have, the more
serious players you will gain, and serious players are buying a lot of
your product, inspiring other players, and so on. In other words, it's
YOUR BEST INTEREST to make VTES a serious tournament game as fast as
possible.
Yours,
Ector (former Magic judge for 5 years and former VTES judge for 2
years)
Petri Wessman
> On Sep 19, 8:24 pm, OrgPlay <orgp...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > On behalf of Mike Tinney, President of CCP North America and White
> > Wolf.
>
> Dear WW and CCP officials,
> I have to use this possibility to remind you about the urgency and
> importance of developing VTES as a serious TOURNAMENT-LEVEL game and
> struggling against the stupid "It's just a recreation" approach that
> seriously hinders spreading the game. The game really needs several
> things:
...and I pretty much disagree with most (if not all) of Ector's
points. The game *is* recreation, and tournaments absolutely do not
need to become even more anal and competitive (read: non-fun) than
they are now. Barring small tweaks here and there, tournament VTES is
fine as is (something should be done about the tendency for timeouts,
but that goes into the "small tweaks" category).
The *last* thing this game needs is more "Magic mentality". Many of
the worst features of current tournaments (imho) can be traced to
certain players having been highly competitive Magic players
previously, and bringing that mentality into VTES.
//Petri (playing and running tournaments for this game since it was
called Jyhad).
Tetragrammaton
However, a little bit of "magic mentality" is what's needed to raise
the level of support for the game and, therefore, of the organizational
system
as a whole.
As long as tournaments are just "recreations", then, it will be simply
non-understandable
by the company why they should lend more support to it.
On the other side, i'm not so sure that suetting up major tournaments (such
as qualifiers,
nationals, continental championships) is so much "recreational" for the
organizers - actually
i was in the staff of the EC 2006 and it has been not "recreational" at all,
because a big event
like that needs a *lot* of effort to be spent - and if organizers spend lot
of effort for such major
event, usually they get motivations in return by feeling that the event in
itself has a bit of what you
call "magic mentality", actually - otherwise, if everything is approached
just like a "recreational
fun", i think that organizers will end up in giving up after a while - a
thing that is actually happening
here and there, at least in Italy.
So, i second Ector suggestions, on this
best
Emiliano
Blooded Sand
> So, i second Ector suggestions, on this
>
> best
>
> Emiliano
See, there you go. First you ask for more Imbued type cards, and then
you second Ector for a more facist type VtES environment.
Please do not go the route Ector wants. It is one of the main reasons
that many of the people who now play VtES that used to play MtG (that
I know) stopped playing VtES. Because having some anal retentive
control freak hoverin over my shoulder while I am trying to play a
game, is definitely in the NOT-FUN department.
Maybe I am wrong though. Maybe the best route would be a fairly
thorough questionairre to the players.
But then again, maybe the best way to keep organisors happy would be
to give greater support to tournament orgainsers in the form of cards/
cash/whatever.
But please, no MtG style "I am the judge!!! You will obey my anal
retentive fury!" Please....
Petri Wessman
better support from White Wolf? I don't see that being in any way
given.
As a counterpoint, the more prizes you have for the winners, the more
bad behaviour you get (cheating, unsportsmanlike behaviour, etc). I'm
not sure I want to see huge prizes, myself -- I think the large cash
prize CCP/WW is offering for the EVE CCG tournament is a bad, bad
idea.
..and no, organizing a large tournament is not entertainment, it's a
lot of work. Been there, got the t-shirt. Of course, organizing
something like the EC is a *huge* job, much bigger than just running a
tournament -- but still, I just ran yet another 80+ player tournament
over here, and I know what you're talking about.
However, I very much doubt that encouraging an (even) more serious,
competitive (and as a result, usually more hostile) tournament
environment would make running tournaments any more fun for the
organizers. In fact, I'm pretty sure it would do exactly the opposite:
more player arguments, more disputes, more negative stuff.
I personally think the current tournament atmosphere is quite serious
enough. Despite your repeated use of the word "recreation" is a
disparaging way, what I see in tournaments is people playing quite
seriously and doing their damn best to win. Yes, they are usually
having fun at the same time. I want to keep that "fun" in the game,
since the day that tournaments become "non-fun", I'm out of here -- or
at least out of the tournament scene. It's not a job, it's a hobby.
As an example of the direction I don't want to see tournaments going
towards, see the recent EC final rounds. Those were stultifyingly
boring to watch, and highlighted probably the worst aspects of
tournament play nowadays. Do you really want to see even more of that?
//Petri
sathriel
>
> Cheers,
> B
I wonder what does it prove and how it goes against my (tongue in
cheek) proposition. As I understand:
- Katie is quite cheap and able to do her work quit quickly
(understood juding on the quality of her work, take a look on
unofficial cards on Damnas page, you can find many of similar quality
there)
Should WW go for cheap and low-q products? It go against the
development of importance of the game. There are better and worse
illustrations for vampire cards and its pretty subjective but overall
I find art for (crypt in particular) cards pretty decent however the
likes of Katie ruin that feeling. So if WW wants to sell more cards it
should hire more Abrars nad (preferably) no Katies of illustrating
world.
As for the tournaments more support would be good. I think that is why
NCs were created. However making a tournament scene more dog eat dog
enviroment wouldn't be good. There are some die-hard win or die
players in VTES but most of the players I know prefer socialising and
fun aspect of VTES tournaments.
sathriel
Tetragrammaton
> On Sep 20, 11:22 am, "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote:
>
>> So, i second Ector suggestions, on this
>>
>> best
>>
>> Emiliano
>
> See, there you go. First you ask for more Imbued type cards, and then
> you second Ector for a more facist type VtES environment.
>
game's design
with the tournament's organizational issues), at first.
Second, overracting with hyperboles doesn't help the discussion.
Ector just asked for a clearer tournament rules set (there are still grey
areas
not covered even in the official tournament rules, such as the
non-gw-allowed-play
in the final round, just cleared so far by lsj here on the NG), so i don't
think
asking that can be called "fascist"...
> Please do not go the route Ector wants. It is one of the main reasons
> that many of the people who now play VtES that used to play MtG (that
> I know) stopped playing VtES. Because having some anal retentive
> control freak hoverin over my shoulder while I am trying to play a
> game, is definitely in the NOT-FUN department.
Having clear rules at disposal would not lessen the chanche of having
fun - actually, that could improve the fun aspect, because judges would
be more consistent in judging -
Actually, a certified judges system would be good, in a game that is much
more complex than magic (and i can't really see how this could be
detrimental
to the tournament scene).
> Maybe I am wrong though. Maybe the best route would be a fairly
> thorough questionairre to the players.
>
> But then again, maybe the best way to keep organisors happy would be
> to give greater support to tournament orgainsers in the form of cards/
> cash/whatever.
Yes, but usually a company doesn't lend so much support for a game scene
that is perceived,
usually, just as casual happy meetings between a bunch of players and a few
volunteers organizing
them -
Ahd this is what, more or less, we got so far indeed, (speaking of support)
and most people don't seem happy with this.
>
> But please, no MtG style "I am the judge!!! You will obey my anal
> retentive fury!" Please....
Of course no - improving effort (by organizers) and supports (by the
company)
for tournaments, maybe with a certified judges system, won't cause that, i
think
Emiliano
Anthony Coleman
> On Sep 20, 11:22 am, "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > So, i second Ector suggestions, on this
>
> > best
>
> > Emiliano
>
> See, there you go. First you ask for more Imbued type cards, and then
> you second Ector for a more facist type VtES environment.
Where the fuck does facism come into it???
> Please do not go the route Ector wants. It is one of the main reasons
> that many of the people who now play VtES that used to play MtG (that
> I know) stopped playing VtES. Because having some anal retentive
> control freak hoverin over my shoulder while I am trying to play a
> game, is definitely in the NOT-FUN department.
More shit talking :O) where the fuck are you getting all this from??
> Maybe I am wrong though. Maybe the best route would be a fairly
> thorough questionairre to the players.
> But then again, maybe the best way to keep organisors happy would be
> to give greater support to tournament orgainsers in the form of cards/
> cash/whatever.
>
> But please, no MtG style "I am the judge!!! You will obey my anal
> retentive fury!" Please....
I'm all for better prizes at tournaments(not cash so much), continued
improvement and refining of the tourny rules etc and am quite
confidant it can be done without all the purple prose of yours above
coming true.
Ant
Janne Hägglund
> I personally think the current tournament atmosphere is quite serious
> enough. Despite your repeated use of the word "recreation" is a
> disparaging way, what I see in tournaments is people playing quite
> seriously and doing their damn best to win. Yes, they are usually
> having fun at the same time. I want to keep that "fun" in the game,
> since the day that tournaments become "non-fun", I'm out of here -- or
> at least out of the tournament scene. It's not a job, it's a hobby.
I second Petri's opinion.
If I wanted to play a more serious tournament game with bigger prices
and stricter judging, I'd play poker.
HG
--
hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey
Petri Wessman
> I'm all for better prizes at tournaments (not cash so much), continued
> improvement and refining of the tourny rules etc
I'm with you there.
//Petri
Blooded Sand
> On 20 Sep, 10:43, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 20, 11:22 am, "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > > So, i second Ector suggestions, on this
>
> > > best
>
> > > Emiliano
>
> > See, there you go. First you ask for more Imbued type cards, and then
> > you second Ector for a more facist type VtES environment.
>
> Where the fuck does facism come into it???
See below.
>
> > Please do not go the route Ector wants. It is one of the main reasons
> > that many of the people who now play VtES that used to play MtG (that
> > I know) stopped playing VtES. Because having some anal retentive
> > control freak hoverin over my shoulder while I am trying to play a
> > game, is definitely in the NOT-FUN department.
>
> More shit talking :O) where the fuck are you getting all this from??
Have you read some of Ector's posts? Ever? Especially regarding the
"All players are cheaters, the judges must judge them" attitude that
seems to arrise out of his posts?
>
> > Maybe I am wrong though. Maybe the best route would be a fairly
> > thorough questionairre to the players.
> > But then again, maybe the best way to keep organisors happy would be
> > to give greater support to tournament orgainsers in the form of cards/
> > cash/whatever.
>
> > But please, no MtG style "I am the judge!!! You will obey my anal
> > retentive fury!" Please....
>
> I'm all for better prizes at tournaments(not cash so much), continued
> improvement and refining of the tourny rules etc and am quite
> confidant it can be done without all the purple prose of yours above
> coming true.
>
> Ant
I have no problem with refinement of the rules, but have serious
issues with the type of changes that has been proposed in the past by
Ector. And tournament support is a good thing, as is giving the
organisors more reward for their effort. What I am objecting to is
ending up with aMtG style environment. The people there have way too
many screaming fights, which is not what I would think would be
classified as enjoyable.
LSJ
> * Comprehensive Rules that should be regularly updated (this newsgroup
> is good, but a judge cannot just print its contents and take at the
> tournament). Somebody should develop the rules that would be
> understandable to an average judge - and currently some rules are
> really hard-to-understand or even counter-intuitive.
Comprehensive rules are found on the WW web site.
If something specific is missing there, please let me know.
Alias
> On Sep 20, 8:31 am, Bram Vink <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 20, 2:06 am, noodle...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
>
> > > > No more Katie McCaskill ;)
>
> > > HIRE THIS MAN
>
> > You would be wise to pay better attention to the newsgroup.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/0215...
>
> > Cheers,
> > B
>
> I wonder what does it prove and how it goes against my (tongue in
> cheek) proposition. As I understand:
> - Katie is quite cheap and able to do her work quit quickly
> (understood juding on the quality of her work, take a look on
> unofficial cards on Damnas page, you can find many of similar quality
> there)
>
> Should WW go for cheap and low-q products? It go against the
> development of importance of the game. There are better and worse
> illustrations for vampire cards and its pretty subjective but overall
> I find art for (crypt in particular) cards pretty decent however the
> likes of Katie ruin that feeling. So if WW wants to sell more cards it
> should hire more Abrars nad (preferably) no Katies of illustrating
> world.
or if they will be pressed time-wise or money-wise (which are the only
justifications of photoshop art), they could have some retarded
children do the art instead. I am not joking. It would be at least
original, free and with a humanitarian touch.
Bram Vink
>
> > On Sep 20, 2:06 am, noodle...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
>
> > > > No more Katie McCaskill ;)
>
> > > HIRE THIS MAN
>
> > You would be wise to pay better attention to the newsgroup.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/0215...
>
> > Cheers,
> > B
>
> I wonder what does it prove and how it goes against my (tongue in
> cheek) proposition. As I understand:
> - Katie is quite cheap and able to do her work quit quickly
> (understood juding on the quality of her work, take a look on
> unofficial cards on Damnas page, you can find many of similar quality
> there)
If I'm not terribly mistaken, Katie McCaskill is white wolf's
Marketing Art Director.
What the above proves that which card I thought you consider low art
grade, is so because it has to be done VERY fast.
I dont think she, or anyone else at WW, specifically aims for cheap or
low quality products.
> As for the tournaments more support would be good. I think that is why
> NCs were created. However making a tournament scene more dog eat dog
> enviroment wouldn't be good. There are some die-hard win or die
> players in VTES but most of the players I know prefer socialising and
> fun aspect of VTES tournaments.
>
> sathriel
I think, for one, that WW is doing a damn fine job artwise.
Cheers,
B
sathriel
> On Sep 20, 12:06 pm, sathriel <sathr...@o2.pl> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> If I'm not terribly mistaken, Katie McCaskill is white wolf's
> Marketing Art Director.
> What the above proves that which card I thought you consider low art
> grade, is so because it has to be done VERY fast.
> I dont think she, or anyone else at WW, specifically aims for cheap or
> low quality products.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Show quoted text -
It doesn't prove that, because Kestrelle is IMO one of the better (not
good) arts by Katie. But I don't think that works of similar quality
should be used as illustration by such firm as WW(as in serious and
sensibly wealthy)
Bram Vink
> On behalf of Mike Tinney, President of CCP North America and White
> Wolf.
>
First of all, as everyone appreciate the letter.
I think LSJ is doing a very good job, and I think he has a sharp sense
of what direction the game needs to go to be/stay attractive. The new
set looks like his best one so far, from a marketing point of view
anyway. I dislike it because I dont have money to afford it, and it
seems like the first almost-must-have set since camarilla ed.
The main problem I see right now is, around here anyway, lack of
feasibility for brick and mortar stores to compete with the online
retailers. This, to me, seems to hamper the influx of new players.
Perhaps that's only in my region, since I heard that sales generally
are great. I can't offer a real solution to this perceived problem,
though.
I think the support of vtes online is good, too. The people working on
that seem to be finally making their online game viable. (web browser
based). If they get that right, and fun, I would say some strong
advertisement from WW would be great to jumpstart it again (as a
certain amount of available players is neccessary as a minimum).
Perhaps moving from the current people doing it to keeping things
inside WW/CCP and have whoever is making the online version of the EVE
CCG also develop V:tES online would be a nice idea, if the current
people handling this don't get it right this time.
Last but not least, perhaps something like the spanish camarilla
conclave would probably help advance the game in europe if it was set
up officially, by WW, and covered the whole of europe. (I'm sure Gines
Quiñonero can give better details on this than I can.)
Cheers,
Bram Vink
Ector
> On Sep 20, 12:15 pm, Anthony Coleman <Buntina...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you read some of Ector's posts? Ever? Especially regarding the
> "All players are cheaters, the judges must judge them" attitude that
> seems to arrise out of his posts?
be cheaters (or just "unintentional misinterpreters"), and preventing
such behaviour is the judge's job. If "strict rules enforcement =
fascism" to you, then you should visit your doctor. Soon.
>
> I have no problem with refinement of the rules, but have serious
> issues with the type of changes that has been proposed in the past by
> Ector. And tournament support is a good thing, as is giving the
> organisors more reward for their effort. What I am objecting to is
> ending up with aMtG style environment. The people there have way too
> many screaming fights, which is not what I would think would be
> classified as enjoyable.
Not everything is pleasant in sport. There are cheating, bribing other
players (or even judges), different kinds of unsportsmanlike conduct
(maybe even "sreaming fights"), but all this is just a "backside" of
sport. The front side is fair competition of highest-level
professionals which is really SOMETHING worth watching and reading
about. Without a real sport, there are no real champions, no real
prizes - just a stupid waste of time that you call "recreation". But
it's up to you.
>From the company's point of view, the "recreational" approach to the
game is a financial disaster. Who needs to buy the new cards if he
already has some decks for the "recreation"? No, I'm not calling for
the "rotations" (to hell with them!), but the serious tournaments are
utterly needed.
BTW, what would you do if VTES would really become a serious sporting
game? Oh yes, you would quit, right? Probably not. You will still play
in your favourite style and buy your regular box or two of each new
set. You may stop participating in the tournaments that would become
"too MTG-like" for you, but the game would flourish. Thus, you are
just hurting the game for your own egoistic reasons, nothing more.
Ector
edit it to make the document "official" and then incorporate it into
the mentioned Comprehensive Rules that are on the WW site, probably
then you will get more-or-less COMPREHENSIVE rules. In Magic,
Comprehensive Rules is a documents of more than 100 pages, and VTES
rules are much more complicated.
Yours,
Ector
Petri Wessman
> just a stupid waste of time that you call "recreation".
Oh, so playing VTES in any other format than an ultra-competitive,
Magic-style tournament is a stupid waste of time? How nice of you to
enlighten us.
> From the company's point of view, the "recreational" approach to the
> game is a financial disaster.
Complete and utter bullshit, unless you're privy to some inside WW
sales figures for a lengthy amount of time. The game has *flourished*
with an environment without the type of tournaments you so seem to
love, and I get the impression (from various sources) that it's also
making quite a bit of money for White Wolf. "Financial disaster?" Give
me a break.
You seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that this is a *game*, and
that the vast majority of people play it because it's *fun*.
//Petri
Ector
> As a counterpoint, the more prizes you have for the winners, the more
> bad behaviour you get (cheating, unsportsmanlike behaviour, etc).
become richer. More wealth means more risk of robbery, kidnapping, and
other crimes" :)
I guess that actually you WOULD like to become richer. The same about
VTES prizes. If you are rich, you can spend some of your money to get
insurance, hire guards, etc. If your VTES tournament would have a
great budget, you would have much more money to pay judges, and in
result you may get LESS crimes.
>
> ..and no, organizing a large tournament is not entertainment, it's a
> lot of work. Been there, got the t-shirt. Of course, organizing
> something like the EC is a *huge* job, much bigger than just running a
> tournament -- but still, I just ran yet another 80+ player tournament
> over here, and I know what you're talking about.
80 players, ouch! Our Nationals had just 26, and I was completely
exhausted after it...
> However, I very much doubt that encouraging an (even) more serious,
> competitive (and as a result, usually more hostile) tournament
> environment would make running tournaments any more fun for the
> organizers.
Organizers aren't meant to have fun - they should work. But larger
budget will allow them to get paid for their job, and, you know,
running a $1000 tournament successfully is a personal achievement that
you'll never forget :)
>
> I personally think the current tournament atmosphere is quite serious
> enough. Despite your repeated use of the word "recreation" is a
> disparaging way, what I see in tournaments is people playing quite
> seriously and doing their damn best to win. Yes, they are usually
> having fun at the same time. I want to keep that "fun" in the game,
> since the day that tournaments become "non-fun", I'm out of here -- or
> at least out of the tournament scene. It's not a job, it's a hobby.
Did I asked to change the tournament *atmosphere*? Where?
The tournaments could be just as friendly and full of fun with the
good Tournament Rules, Comprehensive Rules and the other stuff.
Moreover, even a $25.000 tournament still can be friendly. Would
anybody kill for these money? Or lose his friends for the money? It's
really funny to hear screams like "Please don't make huge prizes,
protect us against OURSELVES" :)
> As an example of the direction I don't want to see tournaments going
> towards, see the recent EC final rounds. Those were stultifyingly
> boring to watch, and highlighted probably the worst aspects of
> tournament play nowadays. Do you really want to see even more of that?
Surely not. We also have the endless discussions about deals from time
to time. But I swear, one Warning for the unsportsmanlike conduct
would quickly put an end to this - and somebody should deserve it.
Well-trained (and responsible) judges are capable of fixing almost any
problem. But who trains the judges now, as long as the game is just
"recreational"? I hope you've got the idea.
Yours,
Ector
Petri Wessman
> Did I asked to change the tournament *atmosphere*? Where?
> The tournaments could be just as friendly and full of fun with the
> good Tournament Rules, Comprehensive Rules and the other stuff.
> Moreover, even a $25.000 tournament still can be friendly. Would
> anybody kill for these money? Or lose his friends for the money? It's
> really funny to hear screams like "Please don't make huge prizes,
> protect us against OURSELVES" :)
Well, I just think that it's very much human nature that if you're
competing for big prizes, the temptation to try to cheat become bigger
and bigger. Of course, ideally judges would catch all attempts, but in
reality that's very difficult. You'd need a judge permanently at eash
table... and sure, given enough budget I guess you could do that, but
it would become quite a chore.
As long as prizes are good but not immensely valuable, I think things
are fine. Sure, I'd like to see some improvement on the prize support
front, I think it's a bit too low nowadays with even the bigger
tournament receiving only so-so prizes... but I'm hesitant about
asking for very much more than the current level.
> Surely not. We also have the endless discussions about deals from time
> to time. But I swear, one Warning for the unsportsmanlike conduct
> would quickly put an end to this - and somebody should deserve it.
> Well-trained (and responsible) judges are capable of fixing almost any
> problem. But who trains the judges now, as long as the game is just
> "recreational"? I hope you've got the idea.
Yeah. But in order for judges to be "qualified", you'd need some sort
of strict tests for them, and organizing those takes money and
effort... not to mention the fact that the whole thing can become a
logistical and bureaucratic nightmare. I suspect you'd end up just
raising another barrier for people to run tournaments, which as you
note is quite a bit of work and effort even now. Why become a judge,
if it means you don't get to play *and* you have to get some obscure
"qualification" through some process? Unless you actually start paying
judges, things would get problematic... and paying judges opens up
another can of worms that is maybe best left closed.
Another thing that differentiates VTES *a lot* from Magic is the
multiplayer nature of it. It's a lot easier in Magic to come up with
clear rulings, in VTES the judge often has to deal with situations
that are a lot less clear. Is someone stalling or just thinking things
over? Is tabletalk stalling or just smart politics. Is someone really
playing to win (sometimes very hard to judge if you get suddenly
called to the table and haven't been following it much previously).
And so forth. I doubt that even "trained" judges would be all that
much more effective in controlling possible problem players than the
current "volunteer" lot.
Btw, sorry if I come across as a bit hostile here and previously, you
do have some points. I just happen to disagree on many of them, is
all. :}
//Petri
Ector
> On Sep 20, 4:11 pm, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> Oh, so playing VTES in any other format than an ultra-competitive,
> Magic-style tournament is a stupid waste of time? How nice of you to
> enlighten us.
as me. But still, VTES IS a game of competition (call it
"recreational", "just a game" or any other junk), and the competition
is STILL fierce enough at major tournaments. It isn't my invention;
all I want is the strict rules to support the fair competition.
> Complete and utter bullshit, unless you're privy to some inside WW
> sales figures for a lengthy amount of time. The game has *flourished*
> with an environment without the type of tournaments you so seem to
> love, and I get the impression (from various sources) that it's also
> making quite a bit of money for White Wolf. "Financial disaster?" Give
> me a break.
Oh, definitely. Boosters are becoming more and more expensive
(inflation, yes, but still), they are printed in China instead of
Canada, all these are just signs of the flourishing :) I'm completely
sure that more serious approach would make much more money for WW,
since all the existing players would still buy the same products, plus
VTES would gain some "professional" players that would buy a lot and
spread the game even further.
Overall, there should be both "casual" games and "professional" games.
Do you play football or other sports? You may play it with your
friends besides your house, but there are people who play it
professionally. Does the fact make you jealous or angry? On the
contrary, you are proud of the professionals, you enjoy watching their
games, and you even pay money for that!
But some decades ago, football was just a recreational game, too. What
would you say if some geek would argue against the professional
foorball now?
> You seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that this is a *game*, and
> that the vast majority of people play it because it's *fun*.
And you seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that "sport" and "fun"
are not contradictory.
Yours,
Ector
LSJ
> On Sep 20, 1:41 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Ector wrote:
>>> * Comprehensive Rules that should be regularly updated (this newsgroup
>>> is good, but a judge cannot just print its contents and take at the
>>> tournament). Somebody should develop the rules that would be
>>> understandable to an average judge - and currently some rules are
>>> really hard-to-understand or even counter-intuitive.
>> Comprehensive rules are found on the WW web site.
>>
>> If something specific is missing there, please let me know.
> If you take the "VTES Unofficial Clarifications, Rulings and Errata",
> edit it to make the document "official"
It has been edited.
It is official.
> and then incorporate it into
> the mentioned Comprehensive Rules that are on the WW site, probably
It is incorporated into the comprehensive rules.
The comprehensive rules are:
The rulebook.
The rulings.
The rulings that belong in the rulebook are there.
The rulings that do not are not.
Petri Wessman
> > You seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that this is a *game*, and
> > that the vast majority of people play it because it's *fun*.
>
> And you seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that "sport" and "fun"
> are not contradictory.
Ok, fair enough :). Sure, ideally you can have a highly competitive
tournament that is also fun. I just happen to be in the opinion that
we already *have* very competitive tournaments (the EC tournaments
that I've been in have been both competitive and fun, imho). I see a
danger in pushing for a more "hardcore" and bigger prizes, because I
suspect it would bring more negative elements to the game.
//Petri
Blooded Sand
-snip- (call it "recreational", "just a game" or any other junk)
-snip- And you seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that "sport" and
"fun"
are not contradictory.
Yours,
Ector
recreational/game=junk
Contradict yourself much?
Junk means it is junk, rubbish, waste or disposable. (No i dont think
he meant a chinese sailing ship). You just called recreation
(otherwise known as fun) junk. So you DO think that fun and recreation
are junk.And you are calling for a more professional environement. So
I do think that you don't want the game to be fun. And you support my
point.
atomweaver
@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> On Sep 20, 4:24 pm, Petri Wessman <or...@orava.org> wrote:
>> Complete and utter bullshit, unless you're privy to some inside WW
>> sales figures for a lengthy amount of time. The game has *flourished*
>> with an environment without the type of tournaments you so seem to
>> love, and I get the impression (from various sources) that it's also
>> making quite a bit of money for White Wolf. "Financial disaster?" Give
>> me a break.
> Oh, definitely. Boosters are becoming more and more expensive
> (inflation, yes, but still),
No, not still.
> they are printed in China instead of
> Canada, all these are just signs of the flourishing :)
..? I'm at a loss as to what you are trying to say, here North American
printing costs over the past six years have roughly increased by about
65% to 75% (largely due to increases in raw material and energy costs,
commercial printing is intensive in both). In order to keep VTES from
doubling in cost itself, WW first absorbed those cost increases
themselves, and later printing was moved to a more affordable region.
Moving printing to China isn't an indication of anything other than the
common sense of controlling product cost on WW's part.
> I'm completely
> sure that more serious approach would make much more money for WW,
> since all the existing players would still buy the same products, plus
> VTES would gain some "professional" players that would buy a lot and
> spread the game even further.
I think you once again overlook that the existing VTES community doesn't
care to participate in the tournament scene as you envision it. Indeed,
many VTES players are VTES players _because_ the tournament scene is so
different from magic. Without the support of exisiting core players,
your "serious" tournament ideas are a tremendous risk with the line. If
estranged players outpace the rate of new players, even for a short
while, the product would likely fail.
If VTES were doing poorly, WW might look to take a risk like that with
a failing line. The fact that WW has more or less left VTES to its
current path, is a fair indication that such is not the case.
DaveZ
Peter D Bakija
> Dear WW and CCP officials,
> I have to use this possibility to remind you about the urgency and
> importance of developing VTES as a serious TOURNAMENT-LEVEL game > and
> struggling against the stupid "It's just a recreation" approach that
> seriously hinders spreading the game. The game really needs several
> things:
Oh, Ector.
Here is the thing. More than anything else. VTES is a multi player
card game with virtually limitless interaction between players. Trying
to turn it into something other than what it is would require such an
incredibly vast oversight situation, in regards to how players
interact in the context of the game, that it would be completely
rediculous to impliment.
> * New Tournament Rules that should really support serious tournaments
> (instead of "friendly tournaments" we have now). At least, the game
> needs these changes:
The current tournament rules support plenty of serious tournaments all
over the world all the time.
> b). Decklists should be recommended at all tournaments and *required*
> at the high-level tournaments.
Sigh.
> * Prerelease events must be the serious competitive tournaments, not
> the farce with starters that is "recommended" now. There are only 4
> different starters in each set, and considering the fact that each
> starter contains two copies of six vampires and a lot of unique cards,
> the "recommended" format leads to a hyper-contested game that
> seriously differs from the normal VTES. Prereleases should be the
> serious certified events with a pure booster draft.
Why? What does this accomplish? Most folks *like* pre-releases, as
they are casual, fun, and everyone is on the same footing. Pre-release
events often get folks to show up who don't regularly play in standard
tournaments for these very reasons. And if pre-release events are
"serious competetive" tournaments using a draft format, people get a
*huge* advantage by going in with spoiler information, making the
distribution of this information incredibly valuable. Which gives less
scrupulous playtesters the opportunity to sell off (or whatever)
information. Or at the very least, go in knowing what is available.
This is a bad idea.
> VTES is definitely *YOUR* game, but I must notice that each sane CCG
> producer thinking about his profit tries to organize a serious
> tournament play.
VTES has serious tournament play.
> Yes, there are players that prefer friendly,
> "recreational" games, but these people can play their games outside
> the tournaments.
Elitist much?
> Ector (former Magic judge for 5 years and former VTES judge for 2
> years)
Oh, Ector. Will you realize that pointing out your credentials in
judging Magic (or anything for that matter) never actually helps your
argument?
-Peter
Ector
> Ector wrote:
> > On Sep 20, 1:41 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >> Ector wrote:
> >>> * Comprehensive Rules that should be regularly updated (this newsgroup
> >>> is good, but a judge cannot just print its contents and take at the
> >>> tournament). Somebody should develop the rules that would be
> >>> understandable to an average judge - and currently some rules are
> >>> really hard-to-understand or even counter-intuitive.
> >> Comprehensive rules are found on the WW web site.
>
> >> If something specific is missing there, please let me know.
> > If you take the "VTES Unofficial Clarifications, Rulings and Errata",
> > edit it to make the document "official"
>
> It has been edited.
> It is official.
people told me to ignore the document completely :)
> It is incorporated into the comprehensive rules.
> The comprehensive rules are:
> The rulebook.
> The rulings.
All resourced I could find at the WW site are
* Rulebook: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
* Rulings: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=rulings
* Complete Rules Reference: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/?line=outline
* FAQ (offsite): http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm
Do you pretend that all these sources form a Comprehensive Rulebook?
Actually, I was unable to find even such basic term as NRA in the
first three sources; fortunately, the FAQ is clear about that. I can
tell a lot of stories about different misunderstandings we had, and
I'm completely sure that most judges can tell similar stories. There
are contradictory answers at the newsgroup, confusing cards texts,
etc. etc.
Just a simple example: Seeds of Corruption can be burnt by two +1
stealth actions. "Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1
stealth actions." There is no (D) symbol, but the actions will be
directed if the other player will perform it, since the card is
controlled by the vampire's controller. Almost all my players were
confused in this case! Besides, only the mentioned FAQ provided the
correct answer about card controller that allowed me to understand the
rules. But when a new player tries to find the correct answer, is he
going to read all FAQ? No, he will read about Seeds of Corruption -
and find nothing about the matter.
Another simple example: Sniper Rifle. "If the bearer blocks an action,
he or she may set the range for the first round of combat to long".
How can a player decide that setting range is performed not
immediately, but during the "before range" step, and acting Cailean
has first opportunity to set range? There is no way to understand it
without the newsgroup.
>From my perspective, we don't have a Comprehensive Rulebook now. We do
have a lot of various sources, sometimes confusing and contradictory,
and getting the right answer may be very, very difficult. We need a
unified terminology, too - I don't know the difference between
"canceling" an action (Red Herring) and "ending" an action (Change of
Target) even now; for a long time I was sure that canceling an action
allows to overcome NRA...
Yours,
Ector
atomweaver
news:1190301025.4...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
Misunderstanding occur because players and judges are human, not because
they lack the resources to find answers. I'll encourage the idea of
furthering exmpales of judging and judging guidelines to help raise
consistency among judges (this only improves competitive play) but I'll
heartily dispute the idea that the Rulebook that they would use would be
something significantly differnt from the current one.
> Just a simple example: Seeds of Corruption can be burnt by two +1
> stealth actions. "Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1
> stealth actions." There is no (D) symbol, but the actions will be
> directed if the other player will perform it, since the card is
> controlled by the vampire's controller. Almost all my players were
> confused in this case! Besides, only the mentioned FAQ provided the
> correct answer about card controller that allowed me to understand the
> rules. But when a new player tries to find the correct answer, is he
> going to read all FAQ? No, he will read about Seeds of Corruption -
> and find nothing about the matter.
Ridiculously simple, even for a not-LSJ. Apply 6.2.2.1, as _nothing_ on
Seeds explicitly contradicts it's rules.
> Another simple example: Sniper Rifle. "If the bearer blocks an action,
> he or she may set the range for the first round of combat to long".
> How can a player decide that setting range is performed not
> immediately, but during the "before range" step,
Card text is all that is needed. Apply the effect (set range), when the
conditional is fulfilled (block an action).
> and acting Cailean
> has first opportunity to set range? There is no way to understand it
> without the newsgroup.
??? From 6.4.1
"As usual, the acting minion always gets first opportunity to use a card
or effect before the opposing minion at every stage of combat."
> From my perspective, we don't have a Comprehensive Rulebook now.
From my perspective, the rulebook more than adequately addresses all
examples you've come up with thus far. You haven't even made me go to the
ERC yet...
DaveZ
bluedevil
> I think the support of vtes online is good, too. The people working on
> that seem to be finally making their online game viable. (web browser
> based).
I still think that deckbot was the best implementation of online
Jyhad. I understand that your average person might not find it as
appealing as a slick GUI'd up web-thingy, but it was fast, and once
you got used to the commands it was easy (one thing I haven't found in
other clients yet: multiple commands issued at once separated by a
";"). The biggest downside to the official V:TES online client is
having to wait for sets to get implemented. That single issue has
kept me from being much interested in it.
If nothing else, deckbot would have made a *great* playtester tool.
Perhaps it could be brought back in this limited fashion someday. No
need to print and sleeve all those damned PDF's, and you could set up
a secure system and have an "all-luminaries" playtest group. If this
required a little money to flow from the company to the author (Derek
Ray), then IMO it would be money well-spent. I make no claims of
knowledge as to why it suddenly went away -- the offered explanation
of "Perl changed" sounds pretty unlikely to me as I do some Perl
scripting myself, but I suppose it's possible. So maybe it's
impossible to bring it back under any circumstances, but I thought it
was worth mentioning.
--
David Cherryholmes
--
David Cherryholmes
Damnans
> On Sep 19, 7:24 pm, OrgPlay <orgp...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> Last but not least, perhaps something like the spanish camarilla
> conclave would probably help advance the game in europe if it was set
> up officially, by WW, and covered the whole of europe. (I'm sure Gines
> Quiñonero can give better details on this than I can.)
I do not know how viable it would be to create a European VTES
Association due to how varied the European VTES community is, but it
may be feasible if we manage to get a decent and stable infrastructure
and clear aims for that organization.
PS: Do not mistake the "Camarilla Conclave" (a tournament held in
Palma de Mallorca once a year) for the "Hispanic Conclave" (the
Spanish VTES Association) ;-)
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
http://iuturna.sorcery.net (IRC channel: #vtes)
Anthony Coleman
Omael (g3n on IRC) wrote a version of online vtes (wtes) that is as
good or better than the old bot - it has all the desirable
characteristics. ie:
It doesnt try and know all the cards an all the effects and micromange
it (bad idea clearly, imo), it just manages a deck of 90 lines of text
and a crypt, and allows you to move cards, tap things, add tokens/
blood etc. and has a rought GUI and some intuitive shortcuts.
Its good. Someone on IRC will be able to give you the link.
Ant
Tetragrammaton
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in news:1190296916.156292.303410
> @r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> I think you once again overlook that the existing VTES community
> doesn't care to participate in the tournament scene as you envision
> it.
However, i must say that there are a pretty number of players that
would like to see a more "pro" level ackowledged for tournaments -
without going to the excesses of a magic-like tournaments, i can understand
what Erol it's trying to say here.
> Indeed, many VTES players are VTES players _because_ the
> tournament scene is so different from magic.
Indeed - that does not mean that getting, say, a certified judges system
would be bad for tournament - actually, i think that for a complex game
such as VTES it's a need since very long time, so i hope, actually, that
the VEKN as a whole will come up realizing it.
>Without the support of
> exisiting core players, your "serious" tournament ideas are a
> tremendous risk with the line. If estranged players outpace the rate
> of new players, even for a short while, the product would likely fail.
> If VTES were doing poorly, WW might look to take a risk like that
> with a failing line. The fact that WW has more or less left VTES to
> its current path, is a fair indication that such is not the case.
>
WW limited herself almost to print the cards for several years, selling
them trough the internet (mostly - i know that here and there some effort
were put actually to advertise more the game) - support (for standard
tournament)
was and is minimal, we know that - and it's handled much just like any other
article
to sell: to everyone willing to buy it (and that takes away any "special
unique feel" our
supports can have, since almost everyone can buy and get them).
Given this picture, i think that the company has left VTES to
its "current path" just out of a non-existent leading line strategy for
the product, and not by a will to make things to go as they're going
effectively now.
I'm confident that with the letter that opened this 3d , WW/CCP
wants effectively to change the approach to vtes, both in the respect
of the marketing and the one of support .
best
Emiliano
atomweaver
news:jCyIi.408$g83...@tornado.fastwebnet.it:
> atomweaver wrote:
>> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in news:1190296916.156292.303410
>> @r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I think you once again overlook that the existing VTES community
>> doesn't care to participate in the tournament scene as you envision
>> it.
> However, i must say that there are a pretty number of players that
> would like to see a more "pro" level ackowledged for tournaments -
> without going to the excesses of a magic-like tournaments, i can
> understand what Erol it's trying to say here.
>
>> Indeed, many VTES players are VTES players _because_ the
>> tournament scene is so different from magic.
>
> Indeed - that does not mean that getting, say, a certified judges
> system would be bad for tournament - actually, i think that for a
> complex game such as VTES it's a need since very long time, so i hope,
> actually, that the VEKN as a whole will come up realizing it.
>
Hi Emiliano,
Were Ector's comments to only go so far as to advocate for more
consistent judging from one tournament to the next, I could support the
idea. But then, there's always that bureaucratic, authoritarian wet dream
he has going on, which simply takes tournament matters too far into the
realm of ridiculous levels of oversight. *shrug* SOrry, can't buy in..
DZ
AW
Blooded Sand
> "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote innews:jCyIi.408$g83...@tornado.fastwebnet.it:
My point exactly, probably just stated a lot more sensibly. I have no
problem with a more publicised, better marketed and supported, high
level tournament scene.But not i any way that Ector envisages it.
thats all. Really, go read some of his posts, and you will see what i
mean.
Bram Vink
My bad. Of course I mean the Hispanic Conclave. :P
Aramis
good to know you are listening to the fans and are committed to
supporting and improving the game. Here are some of my thoughts,
since I couldn't make it to the NAC to bend Oscar's ear...
1. More/better prize support. I have seen some excellent prize
support (the Assamite dagger, original art pieces, uncut sheets of
cards off the top of my head) in the past at larger tournaments, but I
would like to see that become more common for qualifiers/pre-releases
as well. Did we even have a T-shirt for qualifying this year? (It's
possible we did and I just missed them at GenCon). For a long time I
have seen crappy CCG's give out much better prize support than VTES
and I admit I'm tempted to play them just because I know there is good
prize support out there (not that I'd win it, but I'd have a chance).
That said, I'd avoid a straight cash prize since that does seem like a
ticket to a MtG type "serious business-no fun" environment. Just
bring me more cards/art/other Vampire products and I'm happy.
2. Find a way to bring in more players & Increase visibility. I
enjoy spending time with old friends/tournament luminaries, but I like
meeting new people too. VTES has that multiplayer dynamic which
really is unique in CCG's, full of politics and manipulation, I love
it! I'm still astounded when people see us play at tournaments and
exclaim "I didn't even know that game was still around!" I know we
have articles in magazines and the White Wolf website, as well as the
newsgroup, but clearly we're not reaching the audience if old players
from 1994 don't even realize the game is still alive.
3. Support the online version of VTES. I don't know the current
state of the project, but due to the low numbers of players it can be
hard to find a game locally. I did some online games via IRC a few
years back when I didn't have a regular group and I really enjoyed
it. This will be a great way to keep players tuned in to the game and
buying product even when they don't have that local playgroup.
Thanks for listening!
Bram Vink
Yep. It's like deckbot with a GUI.
Cheers,
B
bluedevil
> Omael (g3n on IRC) wrote a version of online vtes (wtes) that is as
> good or better than the old bot - it has all the desirable
> characteristics. ie:
I know about Omael's engine, and I think it's awesome. Maybe I just
haven't picked up on the new hotness, but I've never seen it achieve
the critical mass of players that deckbot managed to get. And I think
mainly *because*....
> It doesnt try and know all the cards an all the effects and micromange
> it (bad idea clearly, imo), it just manages a deck of 90 lines of text
> and a crypt, and allows you to move cards, tap things, add tokens/
> blood etc. and has a rought GUI and some intuitive shortcuts.
.... GUI's get you busted. Deckbot was V:TES in an xterm. ;)
--
David Cherryholmes
Raille
"atomweaver" <atomw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> ..? I'm at a loss as to what you are trying to say, here North American
> printing costs over the past six years have roughly increased by about
> 65% to 75% (largely due to increases in raw material and energy costs,
> commercial printing is intensive in both). In order to keep VTES from
> doubling in cost itself, WW first absorbed those cost increases
> themselves, and later printing was moved to a more affordable region.
> Moving printing to China isn't an indication of anything other than the
> common sense of controlling product cost on WW's part.
>
People should not compromise morals to save a buck. I'd rather have most
costly cards from Canada, than support what is marginally better than slave
labor in china just to keep card costs low.
Raille
Orpheus
>>> On the game in itself, it would be great to see VTES develop
>>> further with the idea of an "WoD: the eternal struggle",
>>> thus introducing, at last, other supernatural as crypt cards (imbued
>>> were, actually, a first step into this) -
>>> werewolves would be the ideal in this regard.
>>> I think that, if WW still owes the rights on the images, they could
>>> consider to use the old art of Rage for the "were" crypt cards,
>>> implementing a gnosis/rage
>>> system similar to the one conceived for the imbued with convinctions.
My dear Emiliano, in all our years of posting, I have finally found a
subject on which we disagree ! That is good, we're not Cosmic Vampire Twins
after all. ;-)
>> Please no. Or pretty soon, we can add "incomprehensible to new
>> players" to the list of "VTES's unique qualities". That sort of cross-
>> over stuff works fine in roleplaying, because the DM (or whatever) can
>> tweak all stories, rules, etc. accordingly. But just look at all the
>> trouble NoR caused.
Yes, a whole set of different rules, especially ones that stack so many
cards so fast and with recurrency, this really doesn't work out for the
other players at the table. If other allies were created, rules closer to
VTES would have to be implemented.
> NoR was a succesfull experiment, imho - it managed to stir the game
> a little, it would need just a some tweaks for balancing issues, other
> than that it added a nice variety to VTES games (that is good).
It has caused so many problems that a bunch of new cards to balance it back
have had to be created.
And even if they appear to be balanced after LotN (which remains to be
proven), there are still too many cards conceived with vampires in mind as
crypt cards, and which will not affect anyone else. So this, in and by
itself, isn't good.
> On the other side, i'm not sure if planning to get just to group
> 6,7,8,9,10
> vampires (as the only crypt cards possible, besides imbued) would be a
> good
> design strategy in the long run.
You do have a point here.
> Adding werewolves (then, in the future wraiths, mages etc) could be a real
> challenge
> for the game design, but it could be very interesting, giving new kind
> foes to battle
> with new strategies and cards.
I am all for the creation of stand-alone games, eventually compatible
if-and-only the tournament director chooses to do so, I'd love to pit Mages
one against each other or against vampires. A Dark Ages expansion has been
mentionned and plebiscited by lots of players and still is a valid idea
(outside current grouping, of course). An "alternate world" Requiem
expansion or series of is also possible. All this could come after Group 5
is completed, for example.
But making other candidates for Memories of Mortality (new version ?) and
other crypt minions who don't fear aggravs (ok, werewolves do), disarm,
cannot be famous, banished or have no vitae to taste... I can do without !!
--
Orpheus
----------------
- On a hot summer night, will you offer your throat to the wolf with the red
roses ?
- Yes !
- I bet you say that to all the boys...
Meat Loaf
Orpheus
>> Oh, so playing VTES in any other format than an ultra-competitive,
>> Magic-style tournament is a stupid waste of time? How nice of you to
>> enlighten us.
> Magic-level competition is impossible in VTES, and you know it as well
> as me.
And that is very good.
> But still, VTES IS a game of competition (call it
> "recreational", "just a game" or any other junk), and the competition
> is STILL fierce enough at major tournaments. It isn't my invention;
No, you are right. But there is also a mood, an atmosphere, a maturity, and
a sense of belonging to a community that you will never see on a Magic
tournament.
> all I want is the strict rules to support the fair competition.
They are already in place.
>> Complete and utter bullshit, unless you're privy to some inside WW
>> sales figures for a lengthy amount of time. The game has *flourished*
>> with an environment without the type of tournaments you so seem to
>> love, and I get the impression (from various sources) that it's also
>> making quite a bit of money for White Wolf. "Financial disaster?" Give
>> me a break.
> Oh, definitely. Boosters are becoming more and more expensive
> (inflation, yes, but still), they are printed in China instead of
> Canada, all these are just signs of the flourishing :) I'm completely
> sure that more serious approach would make much more money for WW,
No it wouldn't.
> since all the existing players would still buy the same products, plus
Wrong. Many players would drop from the tournie scene, and therefore
progressively stop the game.
There has been a few advocates of such a-la-Magic bullshit here and there,
and the results in terms of player attendance have been a disaster. Players
want a certain level of competitiveness, yes, but they also want to enjoy
meeting their friends and playing a cool, relaxing game.
> VTES would gain some "professional" players that would buy a lot and
> spread the game even further.
Certainly not. "Professional" means money. See where money has brought Magic
? Levels of cheating previously unheard of in a game, horrid mentality...
And you said that VTES could never be Magic. That is right. Because it is
all about people and not just about cards (buying the most expensive ones,
copying the cheesy tournie-winner decks, and playing them technically
right).
> Overall, there should be both "casual" games and "professional" games.
Such a mix is impossible.
> Do you play football or other sports? You may play it with your
> friends besides your house, but there are people who play it
> professionally. Does the fact make you jealous or angry? On the
> contrary, you are proud of the professionals, you enjoy watching their
> games, and you even pay money for that!
I hate football, but that is besides the point.
You are comparing a sport with a sitted game.
A comparison with poker would be more appropriate. But the main differences
are :
- the sheer number of players, allowing for different ways to practice
- poker (or football) players don't have to buy regularly lots of
collectible cards (or what-have-you)
- lots of poker players are quite addicted to the game but also hate losing
; others love to win but have no real love for the game ; the ones who keep
it as a recreational hobby don't need to keep up with new rules, new cards
etc all the time, so they can play irregularly with other players (and a
little on the internet maybe) and a tournie a year and still have a chance
at winning, or at least have fun. That isn't possible with a card game.
Magic costs a lot of time and money, and has lost a lot of fans over the
years, but there is so much money behind it that it keeps going on and
dragging new players, but a) WW doesn't have that kind of money and b) VTES
players are older, more mature and want to enjoy their games.
> But some decades ago, football was just a recreational game, too. What
> would you say if some geek would argue against the professional
> foorball now?
I don't know about foorball, but professional football (soccer here) is
awful : bad mentality (see France/Italy last year for example...), cheating,
teams made of money and not of the available local talent... Let me vomit
for a while here.
>> You seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that this is a *game*, and
>> that the vast majority of people play it because it's *fun*.
> And you seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that "sport" and "fun"
> are not contradictory.
Competition can be fun, yes. It is already happening in VTES.
Professional is not fun. It's a way to make a living. I could tell you a lot
about "professional" poker players, let me tell you that "fun" it ain't for
everyone.
BTW :
@Emiliano : second time we disagree in the same day, did a clone take your
place ?
@WW : great to see our needs aknowledged, can't wait to see how it
materializes in the near future.
Janne Hägglund
> > But some decades ago, football was just a recreational game, too. What
> > would you say if some geek would argue against the professional
> > foorball now?
>
> I don't know about foorball, but professional football (soccer here) is
> awful : bad mentality (see France/Italy last year for example...), cheating,
> teams made of money and not of the available local talent... Let me vomit
> for a while here.
Zidane's Honor
Combat card
0 blood
Strike: strength+4 damage. After the resolution of this strike,
remove this striking minion from the game.
"I prefer the whore that is your sister" -Marco Materazzi
Art: you know.
Dark Ages version of the art (work safe) can be found here:
http://medievalzidane.ytmnd.com/
HG
--
hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey
lon...@dlc.fi
many thanks for taking up time and looking into this.
Regarding the discussion so far: I so totally agree with all Petri's
opinnions.
He's been running big annual events at Ropecon for umpteen years and
kinda knows what he is talking about.
If you plan on doing some changes to the game and/or the tournament
environment, please don't do any radical changes, at least at one go.
Many things in VTES work better than in most other games out there and
changing too many things might prove disastrous. I especially like the
fact that VTES hasn't succumbed to any cheap gimicky things like ultra-
mage-hyper rares and/or promos plus the fact that the staple cards
almost always tend to be commons. Sure, you can build some nifty decks
with uncommons and rares but you can make killer decks with just
commons. So the game in't about who purchases the most boosters to get
those omnipotent hyper-rares. This is GOOD (and believe me, I've
purchased so many boosters since day 1 of Jyhad)!
In an another recent discussion about the prize support and such there
were some pretty nifty ideas about prize support. Which also doesn't
have to be cash prizes -no actually make that "it shouldn't be cash
prizes", as these tend to bring out the worst in human nature. IMHO
prizes should be just something related to the game and perhaps
somewhat special 6 unique. Like the plates they are doing for the
upcoming (?) tournaments in Spain or the art prints AND the box of
upcoming set (LotN) months in advance that were used in EC. Also,
original art is always very cool.
My biggest grieve with the current tournament environment is the time
outing, especially on finals. The game should be about playing the
game and not about stalling, even if things are not going that well
for you. Perhaps a half an hour longer playtime in finals would help?
How many of the finals in EC time-outed? Well, at least the Sunday's
side tournament's finale didn't time out. Plus it was a fun game, even
though I took a beating from Jarkko. Luckily this (stalling, time
outing) is not something that happens around here (Finland) of which I
have to thank the local princes and players for keeping the tournament
environment healthy AND fun!
I liked the inclusion of Imbued to the game, but there should be some
slight tweaking to make them more balanced. This also should be done
in small steps as not to overdo it. The last few sets have taken steps
to this direction and I'm sure balance will be found. As a pusher for
the Rage CCG I certainly wouldn't mind getting a similar werewolf
themed expansion for VTES. But it would have to be done ever so
carefully as to avoid the problems that cropped up with NotR and
Imbued. Besides VTES IS a a game abouut vampires and not WoD in
general.
Again, thanks for looking into this and taking the time to address
this in public!
PLAY THE GAME!
Janne Lonnqvist
Company buyer for White Wolf's local importer, Fantasiapelit
VTES NC / Finland
(Crappy) Jyhad/VTES player since day 1
Tetragrammaton
>>> On 20 sep, 00:11, "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote:
>>>> On the game in itself, it would be great to see VTES develop
>>>> further with the idea of an "WoD: the eternal struggle",
>>>> thus introducing, at last, other supernatural as crypt cards
>>>> (imbued were, actually, a first step into this) -
>>>> werewolves would be the ideal in this regard.
>>>> I think that, if WW still owes the rights on the images, they could
>>>> consider to use the old art of Rage for the "were" crypt cards,
>>>> implementing a gnosis/rage
>>>> system similar to the one conceived for the imbued with
>>>> convinctions.
>
> My dear Emiliano, in all our years of posting, I have finally found a
> subject on which we disagree ! That is good, we're not Cosmic Vampire
> Twins after all. ;-)
>
>>> Please no. Or pretty soon, we can add "incomprehensible to new
>>> players" to the list of "VTES's unique qualities". That sort of
>>> cross- over stuff works fine in roleplaying, because the DM (or
>>> whatever) can tweak all stories, rules, etc. accordingly. But just
>>> look at all the trouble NoR caused.
>
> Yes, a whole set of different rules, especially ones that stack so
> many cards so fast and with recurrency, this really doesn't work out
> for the other players at the table. If other allies were created,
> rules closer to VTES would have to be implemented.
>
With an effort in the would be new card design, i think that those
new rules could be few in number (most of them have been
already introduced in NoR, actually - such as the incapacitated
region and the life system when they get out from it, and the clarifications
on the effects targetting crypt cards).
>> NoR was a succesfull experiment, imho - it managed to stir the game
>> a little, it would need just a some tweaks for balancing issues,
>> other than that it added a nice variety to VTES games (that is good).
>
> It has caused so many problems that a bunch of new cards to balance
> it back have had to be created.
>
IMHO, as games goes on, it's normal to see some balance coming,
both on the side of errata and with the introduction of some cards balancing
other -
> And even if they appear to be balanced after LotN (which remains to be
> proven), there are still too many cards conceived with vampires in
> mind as crypt cards, and which will not affect anyone else. So this,
> in and by itself, isn't good.
That can be still the subject of tweaks and change, sure.
IMHO, a CCG design needs to be flexible enough over
time to time to get major changes, as long as the mood
and the core remains the same - with werewolves, kindred
of the east, mages as crypt cards i still would feel to play a lot
in the WoD/vampire settings :-)
The core would not change, imho.
But the fact that a poor playtesting made NoR to impact at such level
into the game, isn't a good reason to challenge the design with a (more
playtested and balanced)
introduction of other supernaturals creatures as crypt cards - actually, i
think that in
the long run that will be the only option left, to add a real variety to the
game -
This because, for my taste, i'm not fond at all to think that the option
left i to see camarilla
group seven (after we'll get a cam set group five next year maybe), then
nine, with the same
trend repeated for all of the other sect/clan (indy, sabbat, laibon etc)
with the same clans
rotating from time to time, just with different disciplines mix and group.
And on this you seem to agree.
>
>> On the other side, i'm not sure if planning to get just to group
>> 6,7,8,9,10
>> vampires (as the only crypt cards possible, besides imbued) would be
>> a good
>> design strategy in the long run.
>
> You do have a point here.
>
>> Adding werewolves (then, in the future wraiths, mages etc) could be
>> a real challenge
>> for the game design, but it could be very interesting, giving new
>> kind foes to battle
>> with new strategies and cards.
>
> I am all for the creation of stand-alone games, eventually compatible
> if-and-only the tournament director chooses to do so, I'd love to pit
> Mages one against each other or against vampires. A Dark Ages
> expansion has been mentionned and plebiscited by lots of players and
> still is a valid idea (outside current grouping, of course). An
> "alternate world" Requiem expansion or series of is also possible.
> All this could come after Group 5 is completed, for example.
>
Yes, but i think that the VTES system can host into itself such expansion,
without the need of separating them from the main game - dark ages and
requiem settings apart, of course.
> But making other candidates for Memories of Mortality (new version ?)
> and other crypt minions who don't fear aggravs (ok, werewolves do),
> disarm, cannot be famous, banished or have no vitae to taste... I can
> do without !!
After all, with memories and few some other library cards (i wnat to disarm
to work
on mortal allies, of course :-)) ), we're speaking of just a bunch of cards
that need an errata to work fine/be balanced with so many allies around, and
the trick it's done.
I don't think this it's a thing difficult to do, to the point of excluding
the chanche
to see the designing of werewolves as new crypt cards, actually.
best
Emiliano
Sten During
> Ector wrote:
>> * Comprehensive Rules that should be regularly updated (this newsgroup
>> is good, but a judge cannot just print its contents and take at the
>> tournament). Somebody should develop the rules that would be
>> understandable to an average judge - and currently some rules are
>> really hard-to-understand or even counter-intuitive.
>
> Comprehensive rules are found on the WW web site.
>
> If something specific is missing there, please let me know.
*grin* I'll bite. :)
This belongs to the 'Rulings' section rather than in the rules book,
though.
"wake cards"
Ie, their definition (which you have given clearly in the NG) and
the fact that they're playable 'as card is played' despite no cardtext
supporting this (to find this you need to know that you're supposed
to search for 'Rewind Time' rather than any of the wake cards by
category or name. Also that they're playable 'at the end of an
action'.
I know some more cases of where clarifications probably should make
its way from the NG into the rulings and clarification section because
what was clarified is a common enough occurrence to merit such a move.
Sten
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
LSJ
> On Sep 20, 5:01 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Ector wrote:
>>> On Sep 20, 1:41 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>> Ector wrote:
>>>>> * Comprehensive Rules that should be regularly updated (this newsgroup
>>>>> is good, but a judge cannot just print its contents and take at the
>>>>> tournament). Somebody should develop the rules that would be
>>>>> understandable to an average judge - and currently some rules are
>>>>> really hard-to-understand or even counter-intuitive.
>>>> Comprehensive rules are found on the WW web site.
>>>> If something specific is missing there, please let me know.
>>> If you take the "VTES Unofficial Clarifications, Rulings and Errata",
>>> edit it to make the document "official"
>> It has been edited.
>> It is official.
> Really? The last time I've attempted to cite it at the newsgroup,
> people told me to ignore the document completely :)
People say a lot of things.
Fortunately, rumor doesn't make reality.
> Do you pretend that all these sources form a Comprehensive Rulebook?
> Actually, I was unable to find even such basic term as NRA in the
NRA is not a "basic term". It isn't part of the rules at all.
It is a slang reference to various portions of the rulebook.
> Just a simple example: Seeds of Corruption can be burnt by two +1
> stealth actions. "Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1
> stealth actions." There is no (D) symbol, but the actions will be
> directed if the other player will perform it, since the card is
> controlled by the vampire's controller. Almost all my players were
> confused in this case! Besides, only the mentioned FAQ provided the
Then "almost all" players should review the rules on the (D) symbol, which are
clear and complete on this scenario.
> correct answer about card controller that allowed me to understand the
> rules. But when a new player tries to find the correct answer, is he
> going to read all FAQ? No, he will read about Seeds of Corruption -
> and find nothing about the matter.
He should read the rulebook.
> Another simple example: Sniper Rifle. "If the bearer blocks an action,
> he or she may set the range for the first round of combat to long".
> How can a player decide that setting range is performed not
> immediately, but during the "before range" step, and acting Cailean
> has first opportunity to set range? There is no way to understand it
> without the newsgroup.
Perhaps.
>>From my perspective, we don't have a Comprehensive Rulebook now. We do
> have a lot of various sources, sometimes confusing and contradictory,
> and getting the right answer may be very, very difficult. We need a
> unified terminology, too - I don't know the difference between
> "canceling" an action (Red Herring) and "ending" an action (Change of
> Target) even now; for a long time I was sure that canceling an action
> allows to overcome NRA...
And from my perspective, we do have a comprehensive, cohesive set of rules.
LSJ
Thanks. I'll make it so.
Orpheus
>> awful : bad mentality (see France/Italy last year for example...),
>> cheating,
>> teams made of money and not of the available local talent... Let me vomit
>> for a while here.
>
>
> Zidane's Honor
> Combat card
> 0 blood
>
> Strike: strength+4 damage. After the resolution of this strike,
> remove this striking minion from the game.
>
> "I prefer the whore that is your sister" -Marco Materazzi
>
> Art: you know.
Lol.
> Dark Ages version of the art (work safe) can be found here:
> http://medievalzidane.ytmnd.com/
I bet an italian did this, uh ? ;-)
> hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
> iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey
Ok, your quote is so great that you get a free Orpheus service. Do you need
to talk to a dear departed ?
--
"All Hail the Lords of the Night !"
Orpheus
Raille
"eRol" <errikos.oenguen_nospam_@_nospam_web.de> wrote in message
> I didnt say anything. ;)
>
> Erol
> Just play "THE GAME".
The official remark is:
PLAY. THE. GAME.
Which is trademarked by Ankur.
Raille
luis....@gmail.com
My own opinion is that VTES must avoid producing "more of the same" on
each new expansion - there are some new thing like the Imbued which
most players agree it's unbalanced (not well done?). Improvement and
revision is needed on new card effects, base rules, tournament
approachs, etc.