[LSJ] Illusions of the Kindred vs. Psyche (not the usual question)
Damnans
"Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or
Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to
end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after
combat (see Majesty ruling above)."
So what happens when:
- Gabrin attacks Anson
- Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat and
starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor).
- Dónal O'Connor strikes for 1.
- Anson plays Majesty to end combat.
- Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat.
Does the "Remove the vampire from the game at the end of combat" effect of
the Illusions of the Kindred fizzle because of the superior Psyche, and Dónal
O'Connor would permanently stay in play after that combat?
Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he is no
longer in play because of IotK?
Dónal should be removed from the game "at the end of combat", but Psyche must
be played "at the end of combat" too, but still during combat, so which card
takes precedence?
Greetings,
Damnans
Timlagor
What a BRILLIANT idea!
Clearly Donal should burn on thematic grounds (he's only an illusion
after all) and this would be a very powerful effect so for balance
reasons it should be disallowed too.
OTOH the rules seem to indicate that Donal survives
-you can order the effect
-Psyche! is a combat card so although played at the end of combat is
not actually after the end of it and Gabrin was acting in your example.
It would be very hard to pull off: perhaps use EoH instead of Gabrin
which gives us another question:
Suppose Donal with EoH plays Illusions otK and pulls out Donal2 (2nd
copy) which doesn't contest by IotK's card text. If Donal2 survives the
combat by Psyche!, does he then contest? -I can't see any reason why the
card text would stop applying..
I hope LSJ says it's ok until someone proves it's broken ;)
Meanwhile let's design the St.Patrick's Day massacre deck ;D
Come to think of it you probably want someone with Tha to Magic the Eye
out. (you can shove in a few guns or something to go with the rest of
the MotS-es) -shame there isn't anyone with CEL/chi/tha.. how about
Menele? (nice bloat there)
I'll have a go later if no one else has :-)
LSJ
> - Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat and
> starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor).
> Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he is no
> longer in play because of IotK?
Correct,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Oscar Garza
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3F815897...@white-wolf.com...
> Damnans wrote:
> > - Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat
and
> > starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor).
> > - Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat.
>
> > Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he
is no
> > longer in play because of IotK?
>
> Correct,
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com
>
ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking instead.
--
Oscar Garza
Prince of College Station, Tx
The Crazy Aggie
LSJ
OK.
Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no
reason to remove Korah from the game (yet).
Smiling Tom
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:3F82E9C8...@white-wolf.com...
> Oscar Garza wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > news:3F815897...@white-wolf.com...
> >
> >>Damnans wrote:
> >>
> >>>- Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat
> >>
> > and
> >
> >>> starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor).
> >>>- Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat.
> >>
> >>>Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he
> >>
> > is no
> >
> >>>longer in play because of IotK?
> >>
> >>Correct,
> >>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking
instead.
>
> OK.
> Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no
> reason to remove Korah from the game (yet).
>
Dragos
If the combat is ended by the time he would play Psyche!, then why
didn't he just play Psyche! right during it? If not,Psyche! should'n
be a combat card, as the combat has ALREADY ENDED by the time the
minion plays it!!
Please come up with a very good explan ation, or it will remain to me
"it will be like that because LSJ said so".
Tks
Dragos
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F815897...@white-wolf.com>...
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje
> news:3F82E9C8...@white-wolf.com...
>
>>Oscar Garza wrote:
>>
>>>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3F815897...@white-wolf.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Damnans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>- Gabrin plays Illusions of the Kindred at superior ending that combat
>>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>>> starting a new one (the Illusionary vampire is Dónal O'Connor).
>>>>>- Dónal plays Psyche at superior to start a new combat.
>>>>
>>>>>Or Dónal cannot play Psyche because the combat has already ended and he
>>>>
>>>is no
>>>
>>>
>>>>>longer in play because of IotK?
>>>>
>>>>Correct,
>>>>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B62A2B6.27205DD0%40white-wolf.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking
>>
> instead.
>
>>OK.
>>Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no
>>reason to remove Korah from the game (yet).
>>
> But will do so after the following up combat, right?
There is no following up combat. There is the current combat.
At the end of the current combat. the Illusionary vampire is removed
from the game, by card text.
LSJ
Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list.
Damnans
LSJ wrote:
[...]
> >>>ok so say the vampire is Korah and she plays telepathic tracking
> >>
> > instead.
> >
> >>OK.
> >>Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no
> >>reason to remove Korah from the game (yet).
> >>
> > But will do so after the following up combat, right?
>
> There is no following up combat. There is the current combat.
> At the end of the current combat. the Illusionary vampire is removed
> from the game, by card text.
But the RTR read:
"Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or
Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to
end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after
combat (see Majesty ruling above)."
Illusions of the Kindred is an effect that does something else after combat.
Will that "after combat" effect fizzel if that combat does not end via
Telepathic Tracking)?
Greetings,
Damnans
Timlagor
> > >>OK.
> > >>Combat doesn't end, by card text on Telepathic Tracking, so there's no
> > >>reason to remove Korah from the game (yet).
> > >>
> > > But will do so after the following up combat, right?
> >
> > There is no following up combat. There is the current combat.
> > At the end of the current combat. the Illusionary vampire is removed
> > from the game, by card text.
>
> But the RTR read:
>
> "Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
> single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
> new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or
> Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to
> end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after
> combat (see Majesty ruling above)."
>
> Illusions of the Kindred is an effect that does something else after combat.
>
> Will that "after combat" effect fizzel if that combat does not end via
> Telepathic Tracking)?
Although Illusions does end combat it is a different combat that is
ended -you can TT/Psyche! to stop the illusion taking effect but once it
is in play it stays until then end of that combat whenever that may be -
it (IotK) does not cause the end to that (the second) combat and so
isn't caused to fail by that combat not ending.
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
[If a vampire retrieved by Illusions of the Kindred is in combat and combat
is extended by superior Telepathic Tracking, the retrieved vampire is still
not burnt until combat ends.]
>
> But the RTR read:
>
> "Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
> single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
> new combat is started. (Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or
> Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.) Note that this doesn't apply to
> end combat and untap effects - the untap effect is not delayed to after
> combat (see Majesty ruling above)."
>
> Illusions of the Kindred is an effect that does something else after combat.
>
> Will that "after combat" effect fizzel if that combat does not end via
> Telepathic Tracking)?
Illusions of the Kindred doesn't remove the retrieved vampire from play as
part of its resolution.
The resolution of IotK is: end combat; retrieve vampire; initiate combat.
If Telepathic Tracking interrupts that resolution (by continuing the
initial combat, since that is the only point in that resolution that
TT can be played), then the rest of the effect is lost.
See the subsequent paragraph of that RTR:
If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting
combat/etc.).
Illusions of the Kindred sets up a "remove the retrieved vampire from the
game" effect to be resolved later, namely when the combat initiated by the
resolution of IotK ends.
LSJ
> Although Illusions does end combat it is a different combat that is
> ended -you can TT/Psyche! to stop the illusion taking effect but once it
You cannot Psyche! to interrupt the resolution of Illusions of the Kindred.
> is in play it stays until then end of that combat whenever that may be -
> it (IotK) does not cause the end to that (the second) combat and so
> isn't caused to fail by that combat not ending.
Correct.
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
> > Although Illusions does end combat it is a different combat that is
> > ended -you can TT/Psyche! to stop the illusion taking effect but once it
>
> You cannot Psyche! to interrupt the resolution of Illusions of the Kindred.
Now I'm confused.
You can't play Psyche! in response to the 'Combat Ends' on IotK? How is
IotK different from say Rotschreck to merit this?
(both say "combat ends" | both go on to say something else that happens
immediately afterwards}
I know I wasn't that clear.. were you referring to the end of the second
combat where you can't play Psyche! to keep your illusion going? (as
opposed to the original one where I thought you could play Psyche! to
stop the illusion coming out)
I'm still not clear on why you can't play Psyche! as the acting vampire
in the 'after combat' slot before choosing to resolve the 'remove from
game' effect kicks in.
LSJ
> You can't play Psyche! in response to the 'Combat Ends' on IotK? How is
> IotK different from say Rotschreck to merit this?
IotK queues a combat.
> I know I wasn't that clear.. were you referring to the end of the second
> combat where you can't play Psyche! to keep your illusion going? (as
> opposed to the original one where I thought you could play Psyche! to
> stop the illusion coming out)
Psyche! cannot be played at either time.
In the first, because there's a combat queued already.
In the second, because the vampire that is removed from the game is not ready.
> I'm still not clear on why you can't play Psyche! as the acting vampire
> in the 'after combat' slot before choosing to resolve the 'remove from
> game' effect kicks in.
I suppose the case could be made to allow it to be played uselessly
(since, after it was played, the vampire would still be removed from
the game), but currently it is ruled not to be an event that is ordered
but rather just something that happens when combat ends.
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
> > You can't play Psyche! in response to the 'Combat Ends' on IotK? How is
> > IotK different from say Rotschreck to merit this?
>
> IotK queues a combat.
>
> > I know I wasn't that clear.. were you referring to the end of the second
> > combat where you can't play Psyche! to keep your illusion going? (as
> > opposed to the original one where I thought you could play Psyche! to
> > stop the illusion coming out)
>
> Psyche! cannot be played at either time.
> In the first, because there's a combat queued already.
> In the second, because the vampire that is removed from the game is not ready.
Aha! That makes sense now, thanks :-)
John Flournoy
> It makes no sense to me:
>
> If the combat is ended by the time he would play Psyche!, then why
> didn't he just play Psyche! right during it? If not,Psyche! should'n
> be a combat card, as the combat has ALREADY ENDED by the time the
> minion plays it!!
>
> Please come up with a very good explan ation, or it will remain to me
> "it will be like that because LSJ said so".
>
> Tks
>
> Dragos
If Psyche! were an Action Modifier/Reaction split card (which it'd
have to be to keep the same functionality) instead of a combat card,
you would only be able to play one per action, which would be a
significant de-powering of the card. Having it as a combat card also
limits the play of the card to the minion who just finished that
combat, instead of letting it work like Fast Reaction, only better:
Bob's vampire blocks you, combat ends, Bob's vampire reacts with
Psyche to jump back in, combat ends, Bob's second vampire Psyche!s
because nothing says it's only playable by the guy exiting combat),
combat ends... then Joe's vampire cross-table reacts to Psyche! into
the combat, because hey, it's just a reaction card that lets you enter
combat...
Of course, as a reaction card/action mod, in order to even PLAY
Psyche! you'd have to be untapped as written, so if you blocked an
action, you wouldn't be able to Psyche! unless you had a Wake or the
equivalent handy.. except that playing the Wake between combat ending
and trying to restart it lets people respond to the Wake being played,
and suddenly there might be a long chain of cards played between a
combat ending and Psyche beginning, which clearly isn't 'when combat
ends'.
Also, the card text on Psyche specifies that it is "Only usable at the
end of a combat." This 'Only' means that (currently) you cannot play
Psyche during a combat, only at the end of it.
-John Flournoy