[LSJ] The Becoming
henrik
Is it legal to move 3 Discipline cards of the same kind to The
Becoming?
A previous ruling ( http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/92a33efbf4cad7e5
) says that you don't get to replace them between each other which
seems to indicate that they're moved at the same time (so the Becoming
won't have superior, say, Celerity before all three cards are placed
on it which would prevent placing of the last one).
Becoming, The
Type: Action
Requires: non-sterile
Cost: 2 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire.
Put this card in play. It becomes a 0-capacity vampire of the same
clan as the acting vampire. Move up to 1 blood from the acting vampire
and up to 3 Discipline cards from your hand to this vampire. This
vampire cannot act this turn. If this vampire has no capacity-
increasing Discipline cards, burn him or her.
Celerity
Type: Master
Master: Discipline.
Put this card on a vampire. This vampire gains one level of Celerity
[cel]. Capacity increases by 1: the vampire is one generation older.
Cannot be placed on a vampire with superior Celerity.
LSJ
> Good evening.
>
> Is it legal to move 3 Discipline cards of the same kind to The
> Becoming?
No.
> A previous ruling ( http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/92a33efbf4cad7e5
> ) says that you don't get to replace them between each other which
> seems to indicate that they're moved at the same time (so the Becoming
> won't have superior, say, Celerity before all three cards are placed
> on it which would prevent placing of the last one).
They're still done in sequence. That sequence occurs before replacing.
jwjbw...@gmail.com
> henrik wrote:
> > A previous ruling (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/92a3...
> > ) says that you don't get to replace them between each other which
> > seems to indicate that they're moved at the same time (so the Becoming
> > won't have superior, say, Celerity before all three cards are placed
> > on it which would prevent placing of the last one).
>
> They're still done in sequence. That sequence occurs before replacing.
Looking at the previous ruling:
The question was:
> Do the discipline cards that are mentioned in the card text have to be
> in your hand immediately after you have drawn to replace The Becoming
> or can you play them one after another as you draw them after playing
> them one at a time?
To which you answered "The former"
If I understand correctly, this is meant to be an application of the
rule that you (normally) declare effects of actions as you announce
them. If so, I believe the "former" option is also incorrect, in that
you do not replace the card before you declare its effects.
Unless ... this effect, and the options associated with it, are not
treated as effects of the action per se, but as effects and options
that are triggered is a consequence of putting the card in play when
the action resolves successfully. If so, i thing the questioner's
"former" option would also be incorrect, since you should also replace
any action modifers and/or combat cards that are played before the
action resolves successfully.
LSJ
> On Jan 2, 10:06 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> henrik wrote:
>
>>> A previous ruling (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/92a3...
>>> ) says that you don't get to replace them between each other which
>>> seems to indicate that they're moved at the same time (so the Becoming
>>> won't have superior, say, Celerity before all three cards are placed
>>> on it which would prevent placing of the last one).
>> They're still done in sequence. That sequence occurs before replacing.
>
> Looking at the previous ruling:
>
> The question was:
>
>> Do the discipline cards that are mentioned in the card text have to be
>> in your hand immediately after you have drawn to replace The Becoming
>> or can you play them one after another as you draw them after playing
>> them one at a time?
>
> To which you answered "The former"
>
> If I understand correctly, this is meant to be an application of the
> rule that you (normally) declare effects of actions as you announce
> them. If so, I believe the "former" option is also incorrect, in that
> you do not replace the card before you declare its effects.
Actually dissected in more detail by the netizens in the posts that followed in
that thread.
The effect of the Becoming action:
You put this card in play. In play, it becomes a vampire.
Once it is a vampire, you can move blood and Discipline cards to it.
So, declaration:
A: Vampire Bob is attempting a Becoming action at +1 stealth costing 2 blood.
This action does <card text>.
A: replace Becoming.
... <blocks are declared and resolved; everyone replacing cards as they go>
Eventually:
All: no more blocks.
A: OK. It's in play. It's a vampire. Vampire Bob moves 1 blood to him. I move
these three Discipline cards from my hand to him.
jwjbw...@gmail.com
I just want to make sure it does not end like this:
A: OK. It's in play. It's a vampire. Vampire Bob moves 1 blood to him.
I move
these three Discipline cards, celerity, obfuscate and fortitute, from
my hand to him.
B: Wait. You never said you would be moving 3 discipline cards or
any blood to the vamp. You're supposed to declare all effects when
the action is announced. If I had know you intended to put celerity,
obfuscate and fortitute, I certainly woulda blocked.
A: Oops. [The Becoming burns, because it has no discipline cards]
LSJ
Easily verified. Just check what I said in the section you quoted above.
jwjbw...@gmail.com
> Easily verified. Just check what I said in the section you quoted above.
I shall assume the sequence is meant to be complete, and therefore
that no terms, other than card text, were announced when the action
was declared. Then it's clear enough.
Sorry for being dense. And thanks.
Aeschere
of the action. Same as with a political action.
Off course you have to announce what the action does but now you
intend to solve it.
For example, a Kine Resource Contested. You have to tell people that
you can distribute 4 points of damage among 2 or more players but you
don't have to announce how you are going to distribute those points.
Same as with The Becoming. You have to announce that you are getting
one and that you can move up to three disciple cards to it, but you
don't have to announce which ones.
With both examples you can even lie about what you are going to do
when asked if that makes people not block it.
Brum
Then what is the difference to other cards like Sudario Refraction. On
a previous thread, it was said that one needs to declare what cards
they are getting. Because ash heaps are public.
Pool is also public, so why does one only have to say the pool damage
after?
The number of cards in hand is also public. Shouldn't you have to
declare the number of those you are to use as Discipline Cards?
My problem here is that in similar situations, I find different
rulings. I might be wrong in judging them similar...
Shouldn't you declare "what is public" as much as possible?
LSJ
> Then what is the difference to other cards like Sudario Refraction. On
> a previous thread, it was said that one needs to declare what cards
> they are getting. Because ash heaps are public.
Not because ash heaps are public. Because the action is to choose cards from
your ash heap.
> Pool is also public, so why does one only have to say the pool damage
> after?
> The number of cards in hand is also public. Shouldn't you have to
> declare the number of those you are to use as Discipline Cards?
>
> My problem here is that in similar situations, I find different
> rulings. I might be wrong in judging them similar...
>
> Shouldn't you declare "what is public" as much as possible?
It has nothing to do with the question of what is public.
It has to do with the question of when things are chosen. Sudario's action is to
choose cards. So you choose cards.
Becoming's action is to put a vampire in play. So you choose to put a vampire in
play.
And, after the vampire is in play, it gives the option to move blood and cards
to the new vampire.
Similarly, you do not declare what card you will be discarding when you use
Compel the Spirit at basic Necromancy or Permanency at basic Chimerstry.
jwjbw...@gmail.com
> Also, you don't have to declare what you are going to do with the rest
> of the action. Same as with a political action.
No. Political Actions are exceptions to the general rule that all
effects are announced when the card is played. See Section 6.2.1.
Announcing the Action.
Of course, there can be other exceptions to the general rule. See
Section 1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards.
For instance, if a card tells you to make a choice at the time of the
resolution of the card (for instance, if it tells you to put a card in
play, and THEN choose X), this is a clear case of the card
contradicting the general rule. You cannot make a choice later if you
are committed to a choice you made earlier.
But whether or not a card intends to contradict the general rule can
be a matter of interpretation.
henrik
> > Is it legal to move 3 Discipline cards of the same kind to The
> > Becoming?
>
> No.
>
> They're still done in sequence. That sequence occurs before replacing.
Ok.
How about other restrictions on the discipline cards? Abombwe seems to
be the only current one, and it can only be put on laibon vampires or
vampires with protean.
Do you need to either perform The Becoming with a laibon or start out
with a protean master if you want to move an Abombwe master the
Becoming (as part of the action of course, I realise that standard
rules apply once the action is over)?
Also, I suppose the same would apply to Path of Death and the Soul as
well as The Becoming since both of them uses the same wording.
Correct?
Abombwe
Type: Master
Master: Discipline. Trifle.
Put this card on a Laibon or on a vampire with Protean [pro]. This
vampire gains one level of Abombwe [abo]. Capacity increases by 1: the
vampire is one generation older. Cannot be placed on a vampire with
superior Abombwe.
Becoming, The
Type: Action
Requires: non-sterile
Cost: 2 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire.
Put this card in play. It becomes a 0-capacity vampire of the same
clan as the acting vampire. Move up to 1 blood from the acting vampire
and up to 3 Discipline cards from your hand to this vampire. This
vampire cannot act this turn. If this vampire has no capacity-
increasing Discipline cards, burn him or her.
Path of Death and the Soul
Type: Master
Unique master.
Put this card in play. When a minion controlled by another Methuselah
is burned, you may tap this card to search your library (shuffle
afterward), ash heap or hand for a Master: Discipline card. Move 1
blood from the blood bank and that card to a ready vampire you control.
LSJ
> On Jan 2, 4:06 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>>> Is it legal to move 3 Discipline cards of the same kind to The
>>> Becoming?
>> No.
>>
>> They're still done in sequence. That sequence occurs before replacing.
>
> Ok.
> How about other restrictions on the discipline cards? Abombwe seems to
> be the only current one, and it can only be put on laibon vampires or
> vampires with protean.
Google "Abombwe protean author:LSJ"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9a0fb74c2625a2fc