Q: Blocking (and its timing) [LSJ]
Brian
If my predator takes an action,
I WWEF and attempt to block,
He plays +1 stealth,
I play +1 intercept,
He plays Conditioning,
He declines to play another action modifier.
Now, does combat occur, or do I have another chance to play a reaction
card?
For example, I wish to play Telepathic Counter (so the bleed'll be
only 2 if he plays Form of Mist), or play Deflection (since a bleed of
4 is worth sending downstream). Is this allowable?
Question #2:
Same scenario, only with a 2nd Tradition instead of a Wake on my side,
and another +2 stealth on his.
I have heard before that the answer to #1 is "blocking minion has
another chance to play a reaction card" and the answer to #2 is
"combat occurs", but this seems inconsistant.
--Brian
The Lasombra
> If my predator takes an action,
> I WWEF and attempt to block,
> He plays +1 stealth,
> I play +1 intercept,
> He plays Conditioning,
> He declines to play another action modifier.
> Now, does combat occur, or do I have another chance to play a reaction
> card?
You have a chance to play a reaction card, but you are still
successfully blocking, so you may not change the target of the action.
You may play a reaction card, for example, Obedience. You may
also play Telepathic Counter, Internal Recursion, Set's Call, Shimulo
Dececption, Veil of Silence or Voice of Madness against appropriate
actions.
> For example, I wish to play Telepathic Counter (so the bleed'll be
> only 2 if he plays Form of Mist), or play Deflection (since a bleed of
> 4 is worth sending downstream). Is this allowable?
Telepathic Counter, yes.
Deflection, no.
You have already blocked the action, you cannot change its target.
> Question #2:
> Same scenario, only with a 2nd Tradition instead of a Wake on my side,
> and another +2 stealth on his.
> I have heard before that the answer to #1 is "blocking minion has
> another chance to play a reaction card" and the answer to #2 is
> "combat occurs", but this seems inconsistant.
Even in this scenario you may play Telepathic Counter or any of the
other reaction cards listed above. You may not change the target
of the action because you have successfully blocked. And even if the
bleed is reduced to zero by the Telepathic Counter, there will still
be a combat unless another reaction card is played that prevents
or cancels the combat.
LSJ [2001-10-25]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BD84073.9460709E%40white-wolf.com
LSJ [2001-07-31]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B670521.6D109CBB%40white-wolf.com
LSJ [2001-07-10]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=eb4eb7f8.0107100403.264e375b%40posting.google.com
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Joshua Duffin
"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ad8599c13a00ea3fa1...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> "Brian" asked:
>
> > If my predator takes an action,
> > I WWEF and attempt to block,
> > He plays +1 stealth,
> > I play +1 intercept,
> > He plays Conditioning,
> > He declines to play another action modifier.
>
> > Now, does combat occur, or do I have another chance to play a reaction
> > card?
>
> You have a chance to play a reaction card, but you are still
> successfully blocking, so you may not change the target of the action.
> You may play a reaction card, for example, Obedience. You may
> also play Telepathic Counter, Internal Recursion, Set's Call, Shimulo
> Dececption, Veil of Silence or Voice of Madness against appropriate
> actions.
I think this is right except that Telepathic Counter should be
just as excluded from the list as Deflection is. All you can
play after the acting Methuselah says "the block is successful"
are reactions appropriate to "successful-block" situations,
eg Obedience, Shilmulo Deception, etc. Deflection isn't
appropriate so it's not playable; likewise Telepathic Counter.
At least, this is what the LSJ posts you cite seem to say.
Note that if the acting Meth has *not* said "the block
is successful", you can play Deflection or any other
appropriate reaction. I think that if acting Meth says,
first, "The block is successful" and then plays Conditioning,
you will not get a chance to Deflect, but if acting Meth
plays Conditioning before declaring the block successful, she
has to allow other Meths the opportunity to also play effects
before she can declare the block successful. [1.6.1.6 in the
rulebook.]
LSJ, confirmation/refutation of that?
Josh
(citations below)
LSJ
> >
> > > If my predator takes an action,
> > > I WWEF and attempt to block,
> > > He plays +1 stealth,
> > > I play +1 intercept,
> > > He plays Conditioning,
> > > He declines to play another action modifier.
> >
> > > Now, does combat occur, or do I have another chance to play a reaction
> > > card?
> >
> > You have a chance to play a reaction card, but you are still
> > successfully blocking, so you may not change the target of the action.
> > You may play a reaction card, for example, Obedience. You may
> > also play Telepathic Counter, Internal Recursion, Set's Call, Shimulo
> > Dececption, Veil of Silence or Voice of Madness against appropriate
> > actions.
>
> I think this is right except that Telepathic Counter should be
> just as excluded from the list as Deflection is. All you can
> play after the acting Methuselah says "the block is successful"
> are reactions appropriate to "successful-block" situations,
> eg Obedience, Shilmulo Deception, etc. Deflection isn't
> appropriate so it's not playable; likewise Telepathic Counter.
Correct.
> Note that if the acting Meth has *not* said "the block
> is successful", you can play Deflection or any other
> appropriate reaction. I think that if acting Meth says,
Difficult to do in practise - the acting Methuselah goes
first, so she'll do one of two things:
1) Play another effect.
2) Not play an effect.
If the latter, she'll indicate this with "OK, I'm blocked" if
there is a blocking minion with suitable intercept.
The only time you'd get the opportunity to play Deflection is
when there is no blocking minion or when the blocking minion's
intercept is not sufficient to block the action.
> first, "The block is successful" and then plays Conditioning,
> you will not get a chance to Deflect, but if acting Meth
> plays Conditioning before declaring the block successful, she
> has to allow other Meths the opportunity to also play effects
> before she can declare the block successful. [1.6.1.6 in the
> rulebook.]
>
> LSJ, confirmation/refutation of that?
She's able to play the Conditioning (typically called "fishing for
stealth"), but this doesn't produce a deflection opportunity in
itself. If, after the Conditioning, the acting Methuselah decides
not to play more effects and there's a blocking minion around with
sufficient intercept, then the acting Methuselah will simply
declare the action blocked (to indicate that she's not playing
any more effects).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CE16181...@white-wolf.com...
[re: scenario with acting Meth fishing for stealth]
> She's able to play the Conditioning (typically called "fishing for
> stealth"), but this doesn't produce a deflection opportunity in
> itself. If, after the Conditioning, the acting Methuselah decides
> not to play more effects and there's a blocking minion around with
> sufficient intercept, then the acting Methuselah will simply
> declare the action blocked (to indicate that she's not playing
> any more effects).
OK, so it works like this?
1. Acting minion bleeds.
2. Prey's minion attempts to block.
3. Acting minion plays stealth.
4. Prey's minion plays enough intercept.
5. Acting minion plays Conditioning.
6. If acting minion doesn't play more stealth, action is
blocked and combat is immediately entered (except for
"appropriate" reactions such as Obedience).
ie, if the action is "currently being blocked" then [1.6.1.6]'s
"Once [the acting Methuselah] is finished [playing effects],
the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah" is not
relevant - in that only "appropriate" effects are allowable on
the defending side when an action is "currently being blocked",
though "general" effects are allowable on the acting side. Is
that right?
thanks for your help,
Josh
timed out
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3CE16181...@white-wolf.com...
>
> [re: scenario with acting Meth fishing for stealth]
>
> > She's able to play the Conditioning (typically called "fishing for
> > stealth"), but this doesn't produce a deflection opportunity in
> > itself. If, after the Conditioning, the acting Methuselah decides
> > not to play more effects and there's a blocking minion around with
> > sufficient intercept, then the acting Methuselah will simply
> > declare the action blocked (to indicate that she's not playing
> > any more effects).
>
> OK, so it works like this?
>
> 1. Acting minion bleeds.
> 2. Prey's minion attempts to block.
> 3. Acting minion plays stealth.
> 4. Prey's minion plays enough intercept.
> 5. Acting minion plays Conditioning.
> 6. If acting minion doesn't play more stealth, action is
> blocked and combat is immediately entered (except for
> "appropriate" reactions such as Obedience).
Sure. I'd have written it as:
6. If acting Methuselah doesn't do something to avoid the block,
then the action is blocked.
With the standard rule (that you've cited references to already)
that the block includes combat barring any "approriate" (post-block,
pre-combat) effects.
> ie, if the action is "currently being blocked" then [1.6.1.6]'s
> "Once [the acting Methuselah] is finished [playing effects],
> the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah" is not
> relevant - in that only "appropriate" effects are allowable on
> the defending side when an action is "currently being blocked",
> though "general" effects are allowable on the acting side. Is
> that right?
Right. The opportunity for the defending Methuselah to play effects
was met with a block attempt by the defending Methuselah. Instead
of the block attempt, the defender could have deflected. As it
is, the defender must wait for the block to be successful (which
would preclude deflection) or thwarted by stealth or some other
effect (at which time the defender could deflect or could increase
intercept or could make a different block attempt or whatever).
Brian
defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat),
then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the
acting Methuselah."
So, once the acting Methuselah is finished playing her action
modifiers on this bleed, the opportunity passes to the defending
Methuselah.
If you play Lost in Crowds, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
If you play Conditioning, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
If you don't play anything, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
So, if you play Govern, and pass, I can play Wake, and it's your turn
again.
Then, you play Lost and pass, I can play Enhanced Senses, and it's
your turn again.
Last, you play Conditioning and pass, and I can play (insert reaction
card here.) It may be Deflection, Telepathic Misdirection, or
whatever.
At least, according to this.
[6.2.3]: "If the action is blocked, then any card played to take
the action is burned, and the blocking minion is tapped and enters
combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). Once the
combat is resolved, the action is over."
OK.
[6.2.2.2]: "To see if a block attempt succeeds, compare the acting
minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept. The action is
blocked if the blocker's intercept is equal to or greater than the
acting minion's stealth. By default, minions have zero stealth and
zero intercept. So a block attempt will normally succeed unless the
action has inherent stealth (such as hunting) or a card or effect
is used to increase the acting minion's stealth."
At what point are the acting minion's stealth and the blocking
minion's intercept compared? I would assume it is when all
Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards.
Otherwise:
Ozmo bleeds.
Anvil attempts to block.
Ozmo's controller wishes to play Lost in Crowds, but according to the
rules, you may determine whether this action is blocked by comparing
the acting minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept. Since
Anvil's intercept is equal to Ozmo's stealth, the action is blocked.
Obviously, this should mean "To see if a blocking attempt succeeds,
compare the acting minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept
when all Methuselahs have declined to play further cards."
And let me tell you, if you modify a bleed and I have a Deflection, I
am DEFINITELY not done playing cards.
--Brian
LSJ
>
> [1.6.1.6]: "...Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the
> defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat),
> then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the
> acting Methuselah."
>
> So, once the acting Methuselah is finished playing her action
> modifiers on this bleed, the opportunity passes to the defending
> Methuselah.
Yes. It's just that some cards cannot be played between the time
a block succeeds and the resulting combat.
> If you play Lost in Crowds, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
> If you play Conditioning, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
> If you don't play anything, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
Yes.
> So, if you play Govern, and pass, I can play Wake, and it's your turn
> again.
Yes.
> Then, you play Lost and pass, I can play Enhanced Senses, and it's
> your turn again.
Yes.
> Last, you play Conditioning and pass, and I can play (insert reaction
> card here.) It may be Deflection, Telepathic Misdirection, or
> whatever.
No.
When the acting Methuselah passes (i.e., fails to avoid the block, i.e.,
becomes blocked), your options are limited to Obedience and other such
post-block/pre-combat effects.
> At least, according to this.
>
> [6.2.3]: "If the action is blocked, then any card played to take
> the action is burned, and the blocking minion is tapped and enters
> combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). Once the
> combat is resolved, the action is over."
>
> OK.
No idea how that is applicable to your argument.
It supports the official rule (of course), however.
> [6.2.2.2]: "To see if a block attempt succeeds, compare the acting
> minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept. The action is
> blocked if the blocker's intercept is equal to or greater than the
> acting minion's stealth. By default, minions have zero stealth and
> zero intercept. So a block attempt will normally succeed unless the
> action has inherent stealth (such as hunting) or a card or effect
> is used to increase the acting minion's stealth."
>
> At what point are the acting minion's stealth and the blocking
> minion's intercept compared? I would assume it is when all
> Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards.
When the acting Meth declares she is done playing cards.
> Otherwise:
> Ozmo bleeds.
> Anvil attempts to block.
> Ozmo's controller wishes to play Lost in Crowds, but according to the
> rules, you may determine whether this action is blocked by comparing
> the acting minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept. Since
> Anvil's intercept is equal to Ozmo's stealth, the action is blocked.
Not true.
> Obviously, this should mean "To see if a blocking attempt succeeds,
> compare the acting minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept
> when all Methuselahs have declined to play further cards."
>
> And let me tell you, if you modify a bleed and I have a Deflection, I
> am DEFINITELY not done playing cards.
Fine. If your block fails, then you are free to play Deflection.
Brian
> Brian wrote:
> >
> > [1.6.1.6]: "...Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the
> > defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat),
> > then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the
> > acting Methuselah."
> >
> > So, once the acting Methuselah is finished playing her action
> > modifiers on this bleed, the opportunity passes to the defending
> > Methuselah.
>
> Yes. It's just that some cards cannot be played between the time
> a block succeeds and the resulting combat.
The wording is, once she is finished (X), the opportunity to play
cards passes to the defending player (Y). Every time X happens, Y
happens immediately thereafter.
According to the ruling in question, every time X happens, Y does not
necessarily happen. According to the ruling, every time X happens,
one must check stealth vs. intercept and, if stealth is greater, then
Y happens; otherwise, the action is considered blocked.
(In that case, does Y happen, or is it the acting Methuselah's chance
to play cards again?)
The current state of affairs and [1.6.1.6] are not the same thing.
They are not consistant.
Hopefully your change to the rules will either be reflected in the Cam
edition rulebook, or undone.
> > If you play Lost in Crowds, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
> > If you play Conditioning, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
> > If you don't play anything, then pass, it's my turn to play cards.
>
> Yes.
>
> > So, if you play Govern, and pass, I can play Wake, and it's your turn
> > again.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Then, you play Lost and pass, I can play Enhanced Senses, and it's
> > your turn again.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Last, you play Conditioning and pass, and I can play (insert reaction
> > card here.) It may be Deflection, Telepathic Misdirection, or
> > whatever.
>
> No.
> When the acting Methuselah passes (i.e., fails to avoid the block, i.e.,
> becomes blocked), your options are limited to Obedience and other such
> post-block/pre-combat effects.
Telepathic Counter is not a post-block/pre-combat effect. Why is it
playable?
> > [6.2.3]: "If the action is blocked, then any card played to take
> > the action is burned, and the blocking minion is tapped and enters
> > combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). Once the
> > combat is resolved, the action is over."
> >
> > OK.
>
> No idea how that is applicable to your argument.
> It supports the official rule (of course), however.
I don't know how it's related either, but it was cited by you as one
of three rules which, taken together, should have shown me why the
current blocking ruling was made. I only granted it a token response
for completeness' sake.
> > [6.2.2.2]: "To see if a block attempt succeeds, compare the acting
> > minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept. The action is
> > blocked if the blocker's intercept is equal to or greater than the
> > acting minion's stealth. By default, minions have zero stealth and
> > zero intercept. So a block attempt will normally succeed unless the
> > action has inherent stealth (such as hunting) or a card or effect
> > is used to increase the acting minion's stealth."
> >
> > At what point are the acting minion's stealth and the blocking
> > minion's intercept compared? I would assume it is when all
> > Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards.
>
> When the acting Meth declares she is done playing cards.
I suppose I'll be more clear. "At what point are the acting minion's
stealth and the blocking minion's intercept compared [according to the
rulebook alone]? [Without access to the newsgroup] I would assume it
is when all Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards."
Hopefully that's better.
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > When the acting Methuselah passes (i.e., fails to avoid the block, i.e.,
> > becomes blocked), your options are limited to Obedience and other such
> > post-block/pre-combat effects.
>
> Telepathic Counter is not a post-block/pre-combat effect. Why is it
> playable?
It is not.
> I suppose I'll be more clear. "At what point are the acting minion's
> stealth and the blocking minion's intercept compared [according to the
> rulebook alone]? [Without access to the newsgroup] I would assume it
> is when all Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards."
Whatever you like.
If you want to play without the official rulings, fine.
Brian
> > > becomes blocked), your options are limited to Obedience and other such
> > > post-block/pre-combat effects.
> >
> > Telepathic Counter is not a post-block/pre-combat effect. Why is it
> > playable?
>
> It is not.
I should have read more carefully. I now see that it was Lasombra,
and not you, who said that it was. My apologies.
> > I suppose I'll be more clear. "At what point are the acting minion's
> > stealth and the blocking minion's intercept compared [according to the
> > rulebook alone]? [Without access to the newsgroup] I would assume it
> > is when all Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards."
>
> Whatever you like.
> If you want to play without the official rulings, fine.
I play with the official rulings. I also want the rulebook and those
rulings to be consistant with one another. I believe your ruling runs
contrary to [1.6.1.6], and have cited a reason; I am asking you to
please explain further.
If the reason is "the rulebook hasn't been printed in a while, but it
will be soon, with this rule inside it", then that's fine. I would
still want to know how you arrived at your conclusion.
[1.6.1.6] says when X happens, Y happens, as per my previous post.
You say sometimes X happens and then combat happens, but Y does not
happen. I am not saying "that's dumb and I quit", I am asking, "what
caused you to rule as you did?"
Please respond again to my previous post, where the question is
written out; this post is a tangent which would not do it justice.
Supported arguments in an open discussion can only help the game move
forward.
--Brian
LSJ
>
> > > > When the acting Methuselah passes (i.e., fails to avoid the block, i.e.,
> > > > becomes blocked), your options are limited to Obedience and other such
> > > > post-block/pre-combat effects.
> > >
> > > Telepathic Counter is not a post-block/pre-combat effect. Why is it
> > > playable?
> >
> > It is not.
>
> I should have read more carefully. I now see that it was Lasombra,
> and not you, who said that it was. My apologies.
>
> > > I suppose I'll be more clear. "At what point are the acting minion's
> > > stealth and the blocking minion's intercept compared [according to the
> > > rulebook alone]? [Without access to the newsgroup] I would assume it
> > > is when all Methuselahs declare they are done playing cards."
> >
> > Whatever you like.
> > If you want to play without the official rulings, fine.
>
> I play with the official rulings. I also want the rulebook and those
> rulings to be consistant with one another. I believe your ruling runs
> contrary to [1.6.1.6], and have cited a reason; I am asking you to
> please explain further.
Someone tries to block and has/gets sufficient intercept to do so.
Then it passes to the acting Methuselah to do something.
Her activity:
*) declare the action blocked
At this point, by 1.6.1.6, the opportunity to play the next effect
passes to the acting Meth.
She could, for instance, play Change of Target.
If she doesn't play any post-block/pre-combat effects, the opportunity
to do so passes to the defending Methuselah.
1.6.1.6 is followed.
reyda
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > "The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > "Brian" asked:
> > >
> > > > If my predator takes an action,
> > > > I WWEF and attempt to block,
> > > > He plays +1 stealth,
> > > > I play +1 intercept,
> > > > He plays Conditioning,
> > > > He declines to play another action modifier.
> > >
> > > > Now, does combat occur, or do I have another chance to play a
reaction
> > > > card?
> > I think this is right except that Telepathic Counter should be
> > just as excluded from the list as Deflection is.
what if your predator is playing the typical Gangrel Dominate, with lotsa
form of mist ?? Can't you play the reduce bleed for the sake of cycling just
before entering combat ?
LSJ
> what if your predator is playing the typical Gangrel Dominate, with lotsa
> form of mist ?? Can't you play the reduce bleed for the sake of cycling just
> before entering combat ?
No. See the rest of this thread.
You could play TC before attempting to block, of course, or before
playing (needed) intercept.