Why Anarch Questions
XZealot
not they are worth it.
Diversion
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Type(s): Combat
Discipline(s):
Celerity- Gain one additional strike
Fortitude-Prevent up to 2 damage.
Thaumaturgy- Strike: ranged. Steal 1 blood with an optional maneuver.
This is preeminantly the best anarch triple card, both the celerity and
fortitude do at inferior what there non-anarch relatives only do at superior
for the same cost. Thaumaturgy does what none of its not thaumaturgical
cousins do which is provide a built in maneuver for a strike.
Rating:4 stars
=========
Improvised Tactics
Card Text:
Requires a ready anarch. Only usable before range is determined on the first
round. A minion can play only 1 Improvised Tactics each combat.
aus- During the press step each round, draw one card. Discard down to your
hand size afterward.
pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each
strike.
pro- Once each round, this vampire may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver.
This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card
mimics the inferior of each of the respective disciplines but yet not as
well (aus-Aura Reading, pro- Quick Meld). The pot is interesting, and is
effectively an zip .44magnum without the manuever. The really crippling
part is that only one can be used per combat so you cannot use both the
manuever and the ranged strike.
Rating: 2 stars
==========
Skullduggery
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Type(s): Action
Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an optional
maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked.
Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth.
I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer
Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal
card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is
pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate)
Rating: 0 stars
==========
Smash and Grab
ani-1 stealth action. (D) Burn 2 life from an ally or retainer.
dem- (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
pot- +1 stealth action. (D) Burn a location controlled by your prey or
predator.
This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation power, which
if I was playing with demetation then there are better cards. This card is
basically a non-equipment permanants hoser. Permanents are still not that
common in play.
Rating: 1 star
=========
The Mole
ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
block.
cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity.
dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this
vampire
to cause the action to fail.
I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
Rating: 5 stars
=========
I hope everyone has enjoyed this little tidbit.
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Timlagor
these cards - YOU CAN CHOOSE WHICH DISCIPLINE TO USE. This means that you
can play with a much mroe mixed crypt and still be able to use your cards
whatever comes up -no pot? play the aus version.
I not convinced that this woudl make it actually worth playing a mixed
crypt but it certainly makes it easier.
> Improvised Tactics
>
> Card Text:
>
> Requires a ready anarch. Only usable before range is determined on the first
> round. A minion can play only 1 Improvised Tactics each combat.
>
> aus- During the press step each round, draw one card. Discard down to your
> hand size afterward.
> pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each
> strike.
> pro- Once each round, this vampire may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver.
pot - would that be a strike requiring potence (for increased strength)?
My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not in play)
and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required potence; not making the
strike. -presumably if you played IT with pot and then lost your pot you
could continue to use the strike.
John P
"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:veec72o...@corp.supernews.com...
> The Mole
>
> ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
> block.
>
> cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity.
>
> dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this
> vampire
> to cause the action to fail.
>
> I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
> to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
> Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
> bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
>
> Rating: 5 stars
> =========
I've found that the big drawback to the "Mole" is the fact that an anarch must
use it, and only when beeing bled by a non-anarch. Once your opponent knows
what you are doing its requirements can be a lot harder to meet.
-JTP
Flux
> Skullduggery
>
> Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an optional
> maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked.
> Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
> Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth.
>
> I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer
> Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal
> card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is
> pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate)
>
> Rating: 0 stars
> ==========
You can't really get the Obf effect with any other single card at inferior.
Also, the main advantage of this card is versatility. If you put it in a
Obf-Pre or Pro-Pre deck, it allows you chose if you want the +1 bleed or the
+1 stealth, depending on what shape your prey is in at the time. That and
dropping the stealth even if your prey doesn't attempt to block means it's
pretty usefull to avoid hand jam in a S&B deck.
I'd rate it 3 stars, at least.
> The Mole
>
> ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
> block.
>
> cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity.
>
> dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this
> vampire
> to cause the action to fail.
>
> I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
> to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
> Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
> bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
>
> Rating: 5 stars
> =========
The Ani effect does require a block attempt.
Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action
that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks,
your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he
figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is
further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of
the time you're better off with a Redirection.
3 stars.
Flux
reyda
:: Skullduggery
::
::
:: -------------------------------------------------------------------
:: --------- ----
:: Type(s): Action
::
::
:: Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an
:: optional maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked.
:: Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
:: Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth.
::
:: I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of
:: Computer Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't
:: do with the normal card without becoming anarch (pro is the
:: exception, but really how hard is pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel
:: stealth to generate)
::
:: Rating: 0 stars
:: ==========
Pro version can be great with vampires having inherent +1 bleed but almost
no access to stealth like Dylan or Siamese.
Obf version is also interesting if you want to play lots of bleed modifiers
(like Conditioning or aire of elation) but little or no stealth. The
maneuveur is an incentive for not blocking, especially if you play some gun
wielding torries.
I guess the Pre version is only a makeshift and will be used when you want
to cycle it since it is inferior to all the other presence bleed cards.
I'd rate it 1 star.
:: Smash and Grab
::
:: ani-1 stealth action. (D) Burn 2 life from an ally or retainer.
:: dem- (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
:: pot- +1 stealth action. (D) Burn a location controlled by your
:: prey or predator.
::
:: This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation
:: power, which if I was playing with demetation then there are
:: better cards. This card is basically a non-equipment permanants
:: hoser. Permanents are still not that common in play.
::
:: Rating: 1 star
:: =========
No. Retainers (some allies) and locations are fare more played that you may
think. Being able to get rid of a Jake Washington or a Palatial estate is a
great ability indeed. The +1 bleed with dementation sounds crap, but there
is no card doing this at inferior dementation, so it fills a gap.
rating : 2 stars
:: The Mole
::
:: ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and
:: attempts to block.
::
:: cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity.
::
:: dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire.
:: Tap this vampire
:: to cause the action to fail.
::
:: I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides
:: abilities to disciplines that no other card in the game provides
:: unconditionally. Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism
:: without requiring a block or a bleed, and a bleed reduction to
:: zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
::
:: Rating: 5 stars
:: =========
ani - is quite cool, but it compels you to block. Wake sounds better but...
If you wanna fight, then the ani version is okay.
cel - sounds like a marvel, but +2 intercept would have been better =/ I'd
rather play some Pack Tactics, which are better if you pack little
intercept.
dom - the best application i can see is when the game is down to 2 players,
the dom version is never a waste.
less enthusiastic than you i'd rate it 3 stars
:: I hope everyone has enjoyed this little tidbit.
as interesting as always, norm =)
LSJ
>>Improvised Tactics
>> pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each
>>strike.
Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for effects
that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude.
> My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not in play)
> and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required potence; not making the
> strike. -presumably if you played IT with pot and then lost your pot you
> could continue to use the strike.
True. And the strikes are still potence strikes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
reyda
:: Timlagor wrote:
:::: Improvised Tactics
:::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R
:::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring
:::: potence (for increased strength)?
::
:: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for
:: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude.
this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the
minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal
pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore. Are the counters
"fortitude counters" ?
::: My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not
::: in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required
::: potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with
::: pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike.
::
:: True. And the strikes are still potence strikes.
So a vampire with Hand of conrad can play improvised tactics, which requires
potence, suffer Drawing out the beast, and still be able to use those strike
that *require* potence ?
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> :: Timlagor wrote:
> :::: Improvised Tactics
> :::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R
> :::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring
> :::: potence (for increased strength)?
> ::
> :: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for
> :: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude.
>
> this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the
> minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal
> pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore.
The card requires Fortitude to play.
The card in play (that requires Fortitude) doesn't require Fortitude to use.
See "Ablative" in the online rulings list, and click the link to the cited
article archived on Google.
> Are the counters
> "fortitude counters" ?
No. They are ablative counters, by card text.
> ::: My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not
> ::: in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required
> ::: potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with
> ::: pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike.
> ::
> :: True. And the strikes are still potence strikes.
>
> So a vampire with Hand of conrad can play improvised tactics, which requires
> potence, suffer Drawing out the beast, and still be able to use those strike
> that *require* potence ?
Yes, by card text on Improvised Tactics. Requirements to play cards are only
checked when the card is played. Once in play, the requirements to play the
card are not checked.
Similarly, a vampire with no Obf who equips with a Changeling Skin Mask
and plays Marked Path and then loses the CSM can still get stealth from the
effect that *requires* obfuscate.
Timlagor
> reyda wrote:
>> LSJ wrote:
>>:: Timlagor wrote:
>>:::: Improvised Tactics
>>:::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R
>>:::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring
>>:::: potence (for increased strength)?
>>::
>>:: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for
>>:: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude.
>>
>> this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the
>> minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal
>> pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore.
>
> The card requires Fortitude to play.
> The card in play (that requires Fortitude) doesn't require Fortitude to use.
> See "Ablative" in the online rulings list, and click the link to the cited
> article archived on Google.
Improvised Tactics is not a card in play however -just a lingering effect.
Does that matter?
Timlagor
>>
>> ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
>> block.
>>
>> cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity.
>>
>> dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this
>> vampire
>> to cause the action to fail.
>>
>> I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
>> to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
>> Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
>> bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
>>
>> Rating: 5 stars
>> =========
>
> The Ani effect does require a block attempt.
> Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action
> that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks,
> your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he
> figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is
> further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of
> the time you're better off with a Redirection.
Further to my previous comment. Redirection doesn't offer Intercept or
untap and is only usable with Dom. Or from another point of view it's
pretty nice in a non Dom deck with dom on some minions to be able to pull
out the dom effect if you do have a dom vamp ready.
LSJ
> Improvised Tactics is not a card in play however -just a lingering effect.
> Does that matter?
No. It doesn't have to be played a second time to use the lingering effect.
evil_poot_cat
<snip>
> for the same cost. Thaumaturgy does what none of its not thaumaturgical
> cousins do which is provide a built in maneuver for a strike.
Take a look at Stone Quills. I don't have cardlist on hand, but I
think that one has a tha outferior of 2R + a maneuver.
> Rating:4 stars
> =========
>
> Improvised Tactics
<snip>
> This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card
I still like the idea of the potence effect as a counter to maneuvers.
(Increased Strength + Imp. Tactics + Undead Strength) in hand means
you have the option of 3 to 5 damage strike at close range, or 3 to 4
damage strike at long.
> The Mole
<snip>
> I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
> to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
> Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
> bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
Outside of Aranthebes, I think The Mole is the best card in the set.
Particularly for Nossies that stand a higher chance of successfully
performing a 'go anarch' action.
The Fanboy
I think he meant beforehand (as in Cat's Guidance)
> Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action
> that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks,
> your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he
> figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is
> further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of
> the time you're better off with a Redirection.
Mole is not wallpapered the instant a game hits two players.
Since titled vamps can't go anarch without some real effort, it means
a player can't make ALL his vampires anarachs unless he's playing
weenies. If he's using mid-caps or fatties at all, chanes are he's
got a primogen, bishop, etc in the crypt somewhere. And if it comes
out, you can at least cycle the card.
Would I ever put all my untaps in an ani deck as the Mole? No. But
Where I would go 6 Cat's/6 Forced, I would go 4 Cats/4 Forced/4 Moles.
It's a good, solid card. Not infallible, but worth the card slot
most of the time.
Fanboy
Curevei
>not they are worth it.
I've yet to see a reason why it's worth becoming an anarch to play any of
these, though I hold some hope for Diversion.
I'd rank them from best to worst:
Diversion
Skullduggery
Smash and Grab
The Mole
Improvised Tactics
While the inferiors of Diversion are comparable to superiors on other cards,
it's not that difficult to have superiors in one's crypt. So, I'm not overly
impressed with the quality of the effects.
The point of the 3-ways seems to be to enable diverse crypts
clanwise/disciplinewise. Maybe if there were other reasons, I could see why
this might be useful, but I don't. Skullduggery has the advantage over the
others in that it fits right into one clan, a clan that has other reasons to go
anarch than to play Skullduggery. However, it suffers from lack of synergy
with getting votes via Fee Stakes; OTOH, maybe there's a point to Firebrand
based vote/bleed decks with Skull.
At the bottom, I find Improvised Tactics nigh useless. The Mole suffers from
the difficult of playing more than one effect. If only going to use it for Ani
or Dom, I'd rather play with other cards and/or not bother wasting effort
becoming an anarch.
Derek Ray
"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> mumbled something about:
>Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why
>not they are worth it.
They're all worth it. In spades.
>Diversion
>Type(s): Combat
>
>Rating:4 stars
This is an absurdly good card. Additional strike at inferior CEL for
free, something you CANNOT GET any other way. Prevent 2 at inferior
Fortitude for free, also something you cannot get. And, of course,
steal 1 + maneuver for inferior THA.
None of these effects are duplicated anywhere else. Just a world-class
card, even if you AREN'T playing with more than one of its disciplines.
5 stars out of 5, and a big uNF uNF uNF besides.
>Improvised Tactics
>
>This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card
>mimics the inferior of each of the respective disciplines but yet not as
>well (aus-Aura Reading, pro- Quick Meld). The pot is interesting, and is
>effectively an zip .44magnum without the manuever. The really crippling
>part is that only one can be used per combat so you cannot use both the
>manuever and the ranged strike.
Not as good as Diversion, no, because the pro level is visibly inferior
to most other maneuvers available to that clan. So that's one level
which you would only use in combo with aus or pot, to have the option to
switch out. The aus level is interesting -- makes it an excellent
"backup" card to use, and you can always pitch it to move your hand
around a little. The pot level is awfully damned good. While it's not
a .44, it also doesn't cost you 2 pool -- mixed with Diversions, it can
be a serious surprise when Jacob Bragg, Anarch, kicks your ass with one
of these, a couple Diversion, and a handful of Flashes... also a free
card.
Let's not leave out the obvious pot/aus tie-in with vampires such as
David Morgan, Gengis, etc.
3.5 stars out of 5 for me.
>Skullduggery
>
>I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer
>Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal
>card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is
>pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate)
This card is a monster for the Setites. They get +1 stealth and a
maneuver OR +1 bleed, depending on what they need at the time. Stack
this up with some Aires or some bleed retainers (oh, look, Priestess of
Sekhmet) and you're good to go. Dropping obf skill cards on Toreador is
a common trick -- this could even pick it up some.
Any vampire packing a little obf should love this one to death,
especially some of the inherent +bleeders like Suzanne Kadim.
The PRO level is easily the weakest -- clans with pro don't typically
need the stealth, they need the bleed increase. Messy.
4 stars, and it'll go to 5 after some people win with it.
>Smash and Grab
>
>This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation power, which
>if I was playing with demetation then there are better cards. This card is
>basically a non-equipment permanants hoser. Permanents are still not that
>common in play.
Have to disagree with the last -- bird retainers and bleed retainers are
still one of the most common things to see in the game, typically in 2
out of your 3 rounds. Almost no retainer can survive the ANI level, and
you can even use this to kick pesky War Ghouls and Renegade Garou in the
nuts... and this card should kill a Garou, who perpetually hovers at 2
blood.
+1 stealth Arson at pot? Sign me up, kids. Dear god, locations are all
OVER these days. Gotta get rid of 'em.
The +1 bleed for Dementation is probably the weakest. Not much dem/ani
or dem/pot running around out there, so why would you ever use this card
instead of good old Kindred Spirits, which gains you a pool?
3 stars for the card, 1 extra star for the +1 stealth Arson.
4 stars total.
>The Mole
>
>I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
>to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
>Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
>bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
Massively goonriffic card. I wake, I play the Mole, your bleed fails.
How strong is THIS for clans who only have like 1 vampire with Dominate,
who can't be doing all the bleed bouncing?
The only saving grace is that if you're stuck in front of Mole decks,
you've always got the option to go cardless Anarch yourself and stop the
card from even being played -- but it could still hurt.
5 stars, of course.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Smiling Tom, The Anarch
"> I think he meant beforehand (as in Cat's Guidance)
>
> > Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action
> > that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch
decks,
> > your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he
> > figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is
> > further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most
of
> > the time you're better off with a Redirection.
>
> Mole is not wallpapered the instant a game hits two players.
>
> Since titled vamps can't go anarch without some real effort, it means
> a player can't make ALL his vampires anarachs unless he's playing
> weenies. If he's using mid-caps or fatties at all, chanes are he's
> got a primogen, bishop, etc in the crypt somewhere. And if it comes
> out, you can at least cycle the card.
>
HAS NO CELERITY. You'll be amased as how many vamps around there got
inferior cel. Arika, comes to my mind. Almost all toreadors have. Even those
pesky Anton (fact i did realise this weekend, while playing a tournament,
and trying to block him equipping with the femur of tomler.)
> Would I ever put all my untaps in an ani deck as the Mole? No. But
> Where I would go 6 Cat's/6 Forced, I would go 4 Cats/4 Forced/4 Moles.
> It's a good, solid card. Not infallible, but worth the card slot
> most of the time.
>
I agree, but no more than 6-4, depending on you play ani or not. If it's
solely for the cel, no more than 4.
Smiling Tom
> Fanboy
Smiling Tom, The Anarch
"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> escribió en el mensaje
news:20030611162549...@mb-m20.aol.com...
> >Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or
why
> >not they are worth it.
>
> I've yet to see a reason why it's worth becoming an anarch to play any of
> these, though I hold some hope for Diversion.
>
> I'd rank them from best to worst:
> Diversion
> Skullduggery
> Smash and Grab
> The Mole
> Improvised Tactics
You forgot all permanents related to being anarch. The nice ones..
Anarch free press
Anarch railroad
Status Perfectus
Hospital food
Stolen police cruiser
And disciplinless/votes
Car bomb
Anarch salon
Firebrand
> While the inferiors of Diversion are comparable to superiors on other
cards,
> it's not that difficult to have superiors in one's crypt. So, I'm not
overly
> impressed with the quality of the effects.
>
The idea is to pack small packs with only inferior disciplines. You gain
efficiency whit pseudo-weenie decks, that can do OTHER thinks rather than
horde-bleeding. Well, not that much.
And diversion is extraordinary, if you have something to do with that
accessory card, as it does no real-serious damage. Packing it instead of
pursuits in a weenie cel-gun deck allows you to lower the crypt. Playing
with some skill cards, you can also prevent for the same price.
Timlagor
> HAS NO CELERITY. You'll be amased as how many vamps around there got
> inferior cel. Arika, comes to my mind. Almost all toreadors have. Even those
> pesky Anton (fact i did realise this weekend, while playing a tournament,
> and trying to block him equipping with the femur of tomler.)
The celerity only applies to using the celerity facet (intercept) of the
card. Celerity won't stop you untapping (ani).
Timlagor
> Where I would go 6 Cat's/6 Forced, I would go 4 Cats/4 Forced/4 Moles.
> It's a good, solid card. Not infallible, but worth the card slot
> most of the time.
Do you not use Rats or Dogs at all?
Gomi no Sensei
Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Do you not use Rats or Dogs at all?
Too cornercase to be considered a 'real' untap.
gomi
--
Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively,
I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation.
- Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'
Gomi no Sensei
Smiling Tom, The Anarch <t...@almadrava.net> wrote:
>
>"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> escribió en el mensaje
>news:20030611162549...@mb-m20.aol.com...
>> >Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or
>why
>> >not they are worth it.
>You forgot all permanents related to being anarch. The nice ones..
>Anarch free press
>Anarch railroad
>Status Perfectus
>Hospital food
>Stolen police cruiser
>
>And disciplinless/votes
>Car bomb
>Anarch salon
>Firebrand
None of which are triple discipline cards.
While Improvised Tactics' [aus] and [pro] lines are pretty much garbage,
the [pot] line is pretty darn nice, so I don't quite share Ian's opinion
of it. Weenie pot/cel Diverting Tactics might well go somewhere. Well,
barring the total lack of response to SCE, which would require one to fold
in DOM or AUS for Thoughts Betrayed or Telepathic Tracking (CEL for
Psyche would be deprecated as you lose the continuing effect of the
Tactics, but it does gain you crypt efficiency)
Gomi no Sensei
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In message <veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>,
>"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> mumbled something about:
>
>>Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why
>>not they are worth it.
>
>They're all worth it. In spades.
one man's spade is another man's trowel, I suppose.
>>Diversion
>>Type(s): Combat
>>
>>Rating:4 stars
>
>This is an absurdly good card. Additional strike at inferior CEL for
>free, something you CANNOT GET any other way. Prevent 2 at inferior
>Fortitude for free, also something you cannot get. And, of course,
>steal 1 + maneuver for inferior THA.
>None of these effects are duplicated anywhere else. Just a world-class
>card, even if you AREN'T playing with more than one of its disciplines.
>
>5 stars out of 5, and a big uNF uNF uNF besides.
Just because they're effects unavailable elsewhere is no reason to jizz
your pants over them. Are they GOOD effects? a free additional strike at
inferior cel is definitely strong. prevent 2 damage at inferior for for free
is ok, just not huge. steal 1 + maneuver is pretty unimpressive. may as
well use wind dance and be done with it, unless you're using Ardan Lane
with Drum of Xipe Totec -- then you could go places. but the tha-level
alone is pretty enh.
So I'd agree with the 4-star rating. Solid, good card, but no UNF.
>>Improvised Tactics
[discussed elsewhere in thread]
>3.5 stars out of 5 for me.
sounds about right. Maybe a flat 3 from me.
>>Skullduggery
>>
>>I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer
>>Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal
>>card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is
>>pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate)
>The PRO level is easily the weakest -- clans with pro don't typically
>need the stealth, they need the bleed increase. Messy.
I have to disagree here -- protean didn't have any free stealth, and this
is more cyclable than an action modifier to boot. Free stealth is a big
deal when everything else you do costs a blood.
>4 stars, and it'll go to 5 after some people win with it.
4, tops. Solid, but not OMGSOHOT.
>>Smash and Grab
[snip analysis]
>3 stars for the card, 1 extra star for the +1 stealth Arson.
>4 stars total.
agreed.
>>The Mole
>>
>>I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
>>to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
>>Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
>>bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
>
>Massively goonriffic card. I wake, I play the Mole, your bleed fails.
>How strong is THIS for clans who only have like 1 vampire with Dominate,
>who can't be doing all the bleed bouncing?
>
>The only saving grace is that if you're stuck in front of Mole decks,
>you've always got the option to go cardless Anarch yourself and stop the
>card from even being played -- but it could still hurt.
>
>5 stars, of course.
Dude. The Mole is pretty assy. Many decks (anything but a serious titled
vote deck) will find the time to take the inherent anarch action, turning
all your Moles into deadspace, and the Celery line is further limited --
and there's a lot of random Celery spread out on random vampires. Further,
the dom line doesn't work with wake, as it says 'tap to cause the action to
fail', which isn't (a) playing a reaction card or (b) attempting to block,
which are the only two things Wake/Forced lets you do. The [ani] line is
pretty solid.
Strong when it works, but cornercase like all get-out.
2 stars, tops.
XZealot
"evil_poot_cat" <evilp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cf597231.03061...@posting.google.com...
> "XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:<veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > Diversion
> <snip>
> > for the same cost. Thaumaturgy does what none of its not thaumaturgical
> > cousins do which is provide a built in maneuver for a strike.
>
> Take a look at Stone Quills. I don't have cardlist on hand, but I
> think that one has a tha outferior of 2R + a maneuver.
Nope, the outferior is only 2R and at a cost of 1 blood
> > Rating:4 stars
> > =========
> >
> > Improvised Tactics
> <snip>
> > This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this
card
>
> I still like the idea of the potence effect as a counter to maneuvers.
> (Increased Strength + Imp. Tactics + Undead Strength) in hand means
> you have the option of 3 to 5 damage strike at close range, or 3 to 4
> damage strike at long.
The potence angle of the card is quite nice.
> > The Mole
> <snip>
> > I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides
abilities
> > to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
> > Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or
a
> > bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the
bleed.
>
> Outside of Aranthebes, I think The Mole is the best card in the set.
> Particularly for Nossies that stand a higher chance of successfully
> performing a 'go anarch' action.
It is a good card for sure, but I don't know if it tops Gather. I would say
it is probably the best common in the set.
Snapcase
internet.com says...
> Discipline(s):
> Celerity- Gain one additional strike
> Fortitude-Prevent up to 2 damage.
> Thaumaturgy- Strike: ranged. Steal 1 blood with an optional maneuver.
> Rating:4 stars
I think this one's good enough for a 5 star rating. 2 abilities that
are duplicated elsewhere but not for free/inferior, and an ability for
Thaumaturgy weenies that's even more important than Theft (the ability
to get the hell out of close range).
> Improvised Tactics
> Requires a ready anarch. Only usable before range is determined on the first
> round. A minion can play only 1 Improvised Tactics each combat.
> aus- During the press step each round, draw one card. Discard down to your
> hand size afterward.
> pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each
> strike.
> pro- Once each round, this vampire may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver.
> This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card
> mimics the inferior of each of the respective disciplines but yet not as
> well (aus-Aura Reading, pro- Quick Meld).
Umm... Aura Reading at inferior looks at your opponent's hand. Your
analysis overlooks the fact that these abilities are useable *each
round*. While combats tend to only last a round or two, this card could
easily be combined with Trap to interesting effect. Need to cycle a
bunch of cards out of the way during a combat? Use the aus ability.
Got a bunch of ranged strikes to throw? Use the pro ability. Got a
bunch of maneuvers? .44 magnum for free it is.
Rating: 4 stars.
> Skullduggery
> Type(s): Action
>
> Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an optional
> maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked.
> Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
> Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth.
>
> I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer
> Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal
> card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is
> pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate)
Umm... Obfuscate getting an optional maneuver is not something to be
taken too lightly. None of Protean's stealth is free. The Presence
ability is weak compared to what's already available, but there's a fair
amount of vamps with obf/pre, which gives you a lot of versatility when
working with this card.
Rating: 3.5
> Smash and Grab
>
> ani-1 stealth action. (D) Burn 2 life from an ally or retainer.
> dem- (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
> pot- +1 stealth action. (D) Burn a location controlled by your prey or
> predator.
>
> This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation power, which
> if I was playing with demetation then there are better cards. This card is
> basically a non-equipment permanants hoser. Permanents are still not that
> common in play.
...? Hunting Grounds are not that common where you play? Or Raven
Spy/Mr. Winthrop/Tasha/JS/Muddles?
The dem ability is the weakest of the three, but there's also no
dementation action card that bleeds for +1 at inferior.
Rating: 3
> The Mole
> ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to
> block.
> cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity.
> > dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this
> vampire
> to cause the action to fail.
>
> I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities
> to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally.
> Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a
> bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed.
>
> Rating: 5 stars
Agreed on all counts.
--
-Snapcase
Timlagor
>> Take a look at Stone Quills. I don't have cardlist on hand, but I
>> think that one has a tha outferior of 2R + a maneuver.
>
> Nope, the outferior is only 2R and at a cost of 1 blood
OUTferior???????????????????????????????????/
Yuck! what a horrible 'word'. What is it supposed to mean anyway?
The Lasombra
>OUTferior???????????????????????????????????/
The discipline on the card that does not have a superior version.
This only refers to Bloodlines multi-discipline cards that have a
Bloodlines discipline with inferior & superior options, and another
discipline option that is not for a Bloodlines specific discipline.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
Smiling Tom, The Anarch
or
> >why
> >> >not they are worth it.
>
> >You forgot all permanents related to being anarch. The nice ones..
> >Anarch free press
> >Anarch railroad
> >Status Perfectus
> >Hospital food
> >Stolen police cruiser
> >
> >And disciplinless/votes
> >Car bomb
> >Anarch salon
> >Firebrand
>
> None of which are triple discipline cards.
>
of "why anarch" question.
> While Improvised Tactics' [aus] and [pro] lines are pretty much garbage,
> the [pot] line is pretty darn nice, so I don't quite share Ian's opinion
> of it. Weenie pot/cel Diverting Tactics might well go somewhere. Well,
> barring the total lack of response to SCE, which would require one to fold
> in DOM or AUS for Thoughts Betrayed or Telepathic Tracking (CEL for
> Psyche would be deprecated as you lose the continuing effect of the
> Tactics, but it does gain you crypt efficiency)
>
Status Perfectus is your friend. Disciplinless, permanent coordinated
attack. Shall prove enough.
Smiling Tom, The Anarch
>
> Dude. The Mole is pretty assy. Many decks (anything but a serious titled
> vote deck) will find the time to take the inherent anarch action, turning
> all your Moles into deadspace, and the Celery line is further limited --
> and there's a lot of random Celery spread out on random vampires. Further,
> the dom line doesn't work with wake, as it says 'tap to cause the action
to
> fail', which isn't (a) playing a reaction card or (b) attempting to block,
> which are the only two things Wake/Forced lets you do. The [ani] line is
> pretty solid.
>
> Strong when it works, but cornercase like all get-out.
>
> 2 stars, tops.
You are wrong, you can play wake and the mole at Dom level just as you can
play wake & car bomb or wake & redirection. Wake allows you to play reaction
cards, and the mole is.
LSJ
> You are wrong, you can play wake and the mole at Dom level just as you can
> play wake & car bomb or wake & redirection. Wake allows you to play reaction
> cards, and the mole is.
Wake won't help for Mole at [dom], since the effect requires you to "tap to" use it.
Contrast Redirection and Car Bomb, which merely have "Tap this vampire" as part of
the effect.
Gomi no Sensei
As a historical note, the thread
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=Pine.SOL.3.90.1011213164241.12586A-100000%40bohm
covers the genesis of the term.
It looks like we have Heikki Poso to blame for 'outferior'.
Those wacky Finns. Greyseer, of blessed memory, suggested 'crap', while our
very own Reyda suggested 'cycle' or 'the cycle level'. LSJ listed
'fallback', 'secondary,' 'off-,' 'sub-,' or 'alternate' as possibilities.
These days, I like 'comedy option,' as in 'Infection's comedy option lets
vampires with only inferior fortitude prevent all strikes, like superior
Skin of Steel, for only 1 more blood.'
If you read the whole thread you can catch me dissing Darkling Trickery --
and that's just one of the many times I've been hella wrong about stuff.
gomi
'dissing' and 'hella' included to up the 'not a word' count
Xian
>Do you not use Rats or Dogs at all?
A more elaborate explanation than Gomi's:
Rats and Dogs are only useful vs. Bleeds. All the other cards listed
are more widely useful. There is pretty much no way I would put Rats
or Dogs in virtually any deck, unless I was only planning to see S&B
decks at the table. Or tap & bleed, I guess.
Xian
Xian
(in response to Derek, whose thoughts have been snipped)
>Just because they're effects unavailable elsewhere is no reason to jizz
>your pants over them. Are they GOOD effects? a free additional strike at
With you so far.
>inferior cel is definitely strong. prevent 2 damage at inferior for for free
>is ok, just not huge.
Agreed and agreed.
> steal 1 + maneuver is pretty unimpressive. may as
>well use wind dance and be done with it,
Here is where the crack-smoking begins.
You're looking at it all wrong. It's not steal 1 + manuever, it's:
MANEUVER + steal 1.
Note that prior to this, all of the THA maneuver effects come at THA,
not tha. Getting the maneuver alone at inferior is worthwhile. The
completely unnecessary bonus strike is hella good. Sure, it's not,
well, "Steal 2," but it's close, and like you were going to do
anything else at long range. And hey, if you were using tha, you were
only stealing 1 anyway.
>So I'd agree with the 4-star rating. Solid, good card, but no UNF.
4 stars, added UNF.
[The Mole]
>Strong when it works, but cornercase like all get-out.
>
>2 stars, tops.
Agreed on the cornercaseness, but 3 stars.
Xian
CurtAdams
>I think you have missed (or at least
>understated) the biggest thing about
>these cards - YOU CAN CHOOSE WHICH
>DISCIPLINE TO USE. This means that you
>can play with a much mroe mixed
>crypt and still be able to use your cards
>whatever comes up -no pot? play the aus version.
>I not convinced that this would make it
>actually worth playing a mixed
>crypt but it certainly makes it easier.
The principle works, but not with only 5 mixed
discipline cards. At most, a deck could use
2 or 3 reliably. That's not nearly enough for
a deck. Diversion is the only really good card
anyway; the others aren't substantially better
than what you can get from disciplinary cards.
Plus, there are no action modifiers.
If there were 20 multi cards, it might be a different
story.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson