New cards: Inferior/Superior Question
Simidh
Looking to add the new Bloodlines cards into the
Succubus Ckub and am wondering how to handle the
multi-discipline cards. Whilst we have
traditionally called the levels Inferior and Superior
for the discipline levels of minion cards, may I ask
what the official terms are going to be for the
new multidiscipline cards?
Ie
If we have
inferior aus: text 1
inferior mel: text 2
superior mel: text 3
I am guessing we label the 'inferior mel: text 2'
level as Inferior, the 'superior mel: text 3' level
as Superior, but what do we term the
'inferior aus: text 1' level? Alternative?
Ulterior? :P
I am probably going to need a field in the database for
this and would sort of like to get that included in some
changes I am writing into the system now, rather than
later.
If we could get a ruling on what the offical terms will
be for the third level, would be appreciated. >;->
Simidh
Gomi no Sensei
Simidh <sim...@succubusclub.net> wrote:
>I am guessing we label the 'inferior mel: text 2'
>level as Inferior, the 'superior mel: text 3' level
>as Superior, but what do we term the
>'inferior aus: text 1' level? Alternative?
>Ulterior? :P
Either Derek R or Peter B has been calling it 'inferior-out,' which
seems descriptive and useful to me. For text cites, we've all been
using the [foo] [bar] <BAR> style, with variations (but lowercase for
inferior and uppercase for superior seems pretty constant), and that
seems to work.
gomi
--
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts
Heikki Poso
> In article <458e9b1c.01121...@posting.google.com>,
> Simidh <sim...@succubusclub.net> wrote:
>
> >I am guessing we label the 'inferior mel: text 2'
> >level as Inferior, the 'superior mel: text 3' level
> >as Superior, but what do we term the
> >'inferior aus: text 1' level? Alternative?
> >Ulterior? :P
>
> Either Derek R or Peter B has been calling it 'inferior-out,' which
> seems descriptive and useful to me.
Outferior? <g>
--
Regards,
Heikki
GreySeer
news:ov7kruw...@rock.helsinki.fi...
Crap? <g>
Since most of the cards are pretty crap ( because there's a card that has a
similar or the same effect for the same discipline either at a lower cost or
with fewer restrictions )
Reyda
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
news:u1bsbbn...@news.supernews.com...
> > > Either Derek R or Peter B has been calling it 'inferior-out,' which
> > > seems descriptive and useful to me.
> >
> > Outferior? <g>
>
> Crap? <g>
> Since most of the cards are pretty crap ( because there's a card that has
a
> similar or the same effect for the same discipline either at a lower cost
or
> with fewer restrictions )
>
Cycle <text>
basic <text>
extra <text> ?
L. Scott Johnson
>> > > seems descriptive and useful to me.
>> > Outferior? <g>
>> Crap? <g>
>basic <text>
>extra <text> ?
Secondary ~
Fallback ~
Off ~
Sub ~
Alternate ~
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu)
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson
Gomi no Sensei
GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> wrote:
>Since most of the cards are pretty crap ( because there's a card that has a
>similar or the same effect for the same discipline either at a lower cost or
>with fewer restrictions )
Actually, a number of the splits provide outferior levels with
effects otherwise unavailable to that discipline. Absorb the Mind
is the poster child here, but Infection's outferior is equal to Skin of
Steel's superior, for an additional blood cost -- but available without
superior Fortitude. This could be vaguely important for weenie-For decks
who want options at basic for.
Lapse's outferior is just like playing two Fists of Death, as far as
inferior Pot is concerned, only BETTER since it's two cards instead of one.
Anaesthetic Touch: Again, Auspex dodges were only available at superior
before.
Ashes to Ashes: This outferior (instead of burning a vampire in combat,
it goes to torpor instead) is huge, especially for an inferior level, and
is entirely new for Fortitude (and, by the way, making burn-in-combat a
wee bit harder makes diablerie a more prominent game element, which is nice).
Aura Absorption's outferior is pretty lame, but there's precedent (telepathic
misdirection) for an expensive inferior effect compensating for a good
superior.
Basilisk's Touch is pretty bad at outferior (2 blood for +1 strength), not
to mention the younger/ally restriction. And the myt/MYT isn't all that either;
strong enough, I guess, but 2 blood PLUS the restriction seems a bit much.
Blissful Agony gives animalism a nice Grapple option. Bond with the Mountain
is arguably MORE useful at tha than at vis/VIS, given that Gargoyles will
be spending more time fighting than fleeing. Burning Touch is identical
to Blood Fury at inferior, which is not super-impressive, but not actively
worse than an existing effect. Chameleon's Colors gives ani a maneuver,
albeit an expensive one. Clio's Kiss is, like Thanks for the Donation, way
too corner case at all levels. Clotho's Gift is pretty damn huge for any
weenie obf deck, where getting things from crypt to uncontrolled is a big
deal -- I know I want about 12 of these, strictly for the outferior.
Compress: Just like Decapitate's inferior.
Concordance: Just like Cat Burglary. Good for weenie Ser.
Condemnation: <foo>: Tapping a potential Deflector is all good.
Conflagration: Just like inferior Sacrament of Carnage.
Darkling Trickery: Okay, this is the joke rare, like Twisting the Knife.
But the whole card blows, not just the outferior.
Domain of Evernight: Just like 5 other Obfuscate cards.
I don't think I'll go through all of them. But have a look; many of the
outferiors (a majority, I think) are un-crappy.
Curevei
I vote for this - relatively distinctive.
The Fanboy
> Since most of the cards are pretty crap ( because there's a card that has a
> similar or the same effect for the same discipline either at a lower cost or
> with fewer restrictions )
Not necessarily true. Granted, I'm basing this off the small number
of cards I have...
It seems like the animalism inferior-out powers are things they don't
quite have at basic Animalism. Sword of the Righteous is a new
effect, and Falcon's Eye (transient intercept at ani!) are the two off
the top of my head.
Many of the cards seem to be equivalent to other basic-discipline
effects, except maybe without the maneuver, etc. Thanatosis seems to
be the exception, as their cards are by far the most expensive I've
seen, and yes, their inferior-outs are generally too expensive for the
effect (except Ashes to Ashes -- I LOVE that card!).
Fanboy
Halcyan 2
>inferior Pot is concerned, only BETTER since it's two cards instead of one.
In most cases. But then again, a DI would counter all of lapse, while it would
only get one of the FoD. Also, if a card makes combat cards twice as much,
Lapse only costs 3 while 2 Fists of Death now cost 4. But if you have the
Ankara Citadel, Lapse costs 2, while 2 Fists of Death cost 0.
>Anaesthetic Touch: Again, Auspex dodges were only available at superior
>before.
'cept for Primal Instincts of course. Costed a blood, but I often included them
into Tremere decks b/c I needed a dodge and inferior (though now I can just use
Bond with the Mountain!).
Also, note that the Anesthetic Touch dodge won't do squat at long range.
>Ashes to Ashes: This outferior (instead of burning a vampire in combat,
>it goes to torpor instead) is huge, especially for an inferior level, and
>is entirely new for Fortitude (and, by the way, making burn-in-combat a
>wee bit harder makes diablerie a more prominent game element, which is nice).
I agree. Weenie fortitude decks using Trp + Undead Persistence can now use
Ashes to Ashes in case the opponent packs any agg damage.
>Basilisk's Touch is pretty bad at outferior (2 blood for +1 strength), not
>to mention the younger/ally restriction. And the myt/MYT isn't all that
>either;
>strong enough, I guess, but 2 blood PLUS the restriction seems a bit much.
It's like a restricted Disarm. Can only use it against younger vampires, but
don't need to do more damage (one is just enough). Stutter-Step + Basilisk's
Touch might make for an interesting combo. Also, Basilisk's Touch is excellent
for doing a killing poke to a Garou or War Ghoul. (But not to Rock Cats! That
wouldn't be very nice!!! Meow?).
>Blissful Agony gives animalism a nice Grapple option.
Blissful Agony at superior is a bit scary. Sending an opposing minion to enter
combat with some of those Tzimisce or potence weenies could really ruin
someone's day.
>Bond with the Mountain
>is arguably MORE useful at tha than at vis/VIS, given that Gargoyles will
>be spending more time fighting than fleeing.
Definitely. The dodge will really help. Bond with the Mountain at VIS is pretty
good too. Imagine: Tremere does some action gets blocked (blocking minion
taps). Slave Gargoyle taps to untap Tremere and enters combat. Slave Gargoyle
plays Bond at superior to untap. So now both of your guys are untapped and you
managed to tap someone else.
>Clio's Kiss is, like Thanks for the Donation, way
>too corner case at all levels.
Clio's Kiss at TEM means that someone loses the contest period. Which is just
like flushing 2, 4, 8, or 11 pool down the drain...
>Darkling Trickery: Okay, this is the joke rare, like Twisting the Knife.
> But the whole card blows, not just the outferior.
What's so bad about it? It's a conditional press for Obtenebration (in case
they can't S:CE out of combat). And it's the only source of manuevers or
presses for Mytherceria. In fact, it's a press *or* a manuever at inferior, a
flexibility that only Celerity and Protean usually have.
Halcyan 2
LSJ
> Also, note that the Anesthetic Touch dodge won't do squat at long range.
Dodges work at long range, by default.
The "end combat after resolution" basic effect only works at close range,
but the dodge fallback works even at long range.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
>
> Halcyan 2 wrote:
> > Also, note that the Anesthetic Touch dodge won't do squat at long range.
>
> Dodges work at long range, by default.
> The "end combat after resolution" basic effect only works at close range,
> but the dodge fallback works even at long range.
... except that you cannot play the card at close range of course. (doh!)
Apologies.
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >
> > Halcyan 2 wrote:
> > > Also, note that the Anesthetic Touch dodge won't do squat at long range.
> >
> > Dodges work at long range, by default.
> > The "end combat after resolution" basic effect only works at close range,
> > but the dodge fallback works even at long range.
>
> ... except that you cannot play the card at close range of course. (doh!)
>
> Apologies.
Hmm. I seem to be incapable of posting error-free on this thread.
"only at close range", I meant.
(double doh!)
This also takes care of that pesky "does combat end at [obe] if the strike
is used at long range" question.
Robert Goudie
news:3C16647B...@white-wolf.com...
> LSJ wrote:
> > Apologies.
[clip]
> Hmm. I seem to be incapable of posting error-free on this thread.
[clip]
That's it! I want the old netrep back. Didn't some guy named "Wilkie" or
something do it for a couple of weeks? IIRC, everyone loved him. Let's track
him down. :)
-Robert
Joshua Duffin
news:20011211144409...@mb-ch.aol.com...
[gomi wrote]
> >Lapse's outferior is just like playing two Fists of Death, as far as
> >inferior Pot is concerned, only BETTER since it's two cards instead of
one.
>
> In most cases. But then again, a DI would counter all of lapse, while it
would
> only get one of the FoD. Also, if a card makes combat cards twice as much,
> Lapse only costs 3 while 2 Fists of Death now cost 4. But if you have the
> Ankara Citadel, Lapse costs 2, while 2 Fists of Death cost 0.
These hypotheticals confuse me. :-)
On its own, Lapse costs two. If you made combat cards cost
twice as much, it'd cost four, just like two Fists of Death
would. If you have Ankara Citadel, Lapse would cost 1,
but Fists of Deaths would cost 0. (If you made combat cards
cost one more, Lapse would cost 3 compared to 4 for two FoD -
was that what you meant?)
> It's like a restricted Disarm. Can only use it against younger vampires,
but
> don't need to do more damage (one is just enough). Stutter-Step +
Basilisk's
> Touch might make for an interesting combo. Also, Basilisk's Touch is
excellent
> for doing a killing poke to a Garou or War Ghoul. (But not to Rock Cats!
That
> wouldn't be very nice!!! Meow?).
The killing poke will only work against War Ghoul if (a)
the Ghouling player lets it or (b) you do more than one
point of poke. It'll work fine against Rock Cats unless
the Basilisky vamp is cap 3 or less... which seems unlikely.
Note, though, that the potence fallback on Basilisk's is
"remainder of combat" where on Lapse it's only this round.
> >Darkling Trickery: Okay, this is the joke rare, like Twisting the Knife.
> > But the whole card blows, not just the outferior.
>
> What's so bad about it? It's a conditional press for Obtenebration (in
case
> they can't S:CE out of combat). And it's the only source of manuevers or
> presses for Mytherceria. In fact, it's a press *or* a manuever at
inferior, a
> flexibility that only Celerity and Protean usually have.
I agree. Not something most people are liable to get
excited about, but a card approximately as good as Flash,
which is a good card. The superior is, admittedly, very
cornercase. I think it'll blow up an Improvised Flamethrower
if used at long...
Josh
tricksy but not darkling
Halcyan 2
>
>On its own, Lapse costs two. If you made combat cards cost
>twice as much, it'd cost four, just like two Fists of Death
>would. If you have Ankara Citadel, Lapse would cost 1,
>but Fists of Deaths would cost 0. (If you made combat cards
>cost one more, Lapse would cost 3 compared to 4 for two FoD -
>was that what you meant?)
Oops. Yeah, I meant combat cards cost one more, not twice as much.
>The killing poke will only work against War Ghoul if (a)
>the Ghouling player lets it or (b) you do more than one
>point of poke.
Okay, so maybe you throw in a Vengeance of Samiel for the War Ghoul, or just go
straight to the Basilisk poke phase for most other allies.
>It'll work fine against Rock Cats unless
>the Basilisky vamp is cap 3 or less... which seems unlikely.
But that wouldn't be a very nice thing to do to the kitty! Kitties don't like
it when you poke them...Anyway, at least Doris and Kervos can't normally poke
the cat. And even older !Salubri will still get mauled for 3.
>I agree. Not something most people are liable to get
>excited about, but a card approximately as good as Flash,
>which is a good card. The superior is, admittedly, very
>cornercase.
Here, here!
> I think it'll blow up an Improvised Flamethrower
>if used at long...
2R aggravated damage each strike. Only usable once per combat. If the opposing
minion inflicts any damage on this minion at long range (even if it is
prevented), this weapon is burned and the bearer takes 2 aggravated
(non-strike) damage.
vs.
Only usable when the opposing minion attempts to strike with a weapon that does
ranged damage. The damage from that weapon is reduced to zero. The opposing
minion takes 1 additional damage during strike resolution.
I think the MYT Darkling Trickery damage is environmental, so it wouldn't blow
up the Improv Flamethrower.
Halcyan 2
Wonders if petting a pet rock cat is any nicer than just petting a pet rock.
Cameron
> Since most of the cards are pretty crap ( because there's a card that has a
> similar or the same effect for the same discipline either at a lower cost or
> with fewer restrictions )
ohhh... just you wait until my clio's contestable kiss deck is done.
Weenie dom will never be the same again.
Cameron
Joshua Duffin
[i wrote]
> >The killing poke will only work against War Ghoul if (a)
> >the Ghouling player lets it or (b) you do more than one
> >point of poke.
>
> Okay, so maybe you throw in a Vengeance of Samiel for the War Ghoul, or
just go
> straight to the Basilisk poke phase for most other allies.
Now I think you're confusing Valeren with Mytherceria? (MYT
has Basilisk's Touch; Valeren has Vengeance of Samiel.)
Perhaps adding Lucky Blow (or Channel the Beast) would be
easier. :-)
> >It'll work fine against Rock Cats unless
> >the Basilisky vamp is cap 3 or less... which seems unlikely.
>
> But that wouldn't be a very nice thing to do to the kitty! Kitties don't
like
> it when you poke them...Anyway, at least Doris and Kervos can't normally
poke
> the cat. And even older !Salubri will still get mauled for 3.
Kiasyd. None of whom are below 5-cap. You see what I meant
now. :-)
I agree that kitties should not be poked. I very much desire
to get three or four Rock Cats and put them all in a deck.
Nice card.
> I think the MYT Darkling Trickery damage is environmental, so it wouldn't
blow
> up the Improv Flamethrower.
Hmmm. I think you're right. Too bad.
Josh
not that blowing up improvised flamethrowers would make it any
less cornercase...
Santiago
go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote:
>Clotho's Gift is pretty damn huge for any weenie obf deck, where
>getting things from crypt to uncontrolled is a big deal -- I know I
>want about 12 of these, strictly for the outferior.
Hell yeah, when I saw this thing, I loved it. I'm thinking a crypt
full of low-cap Malks, Clotho's Gift, GtU, and Sanguine Instruction (for
all those without DOM). Can you say exponentially-growing weenie
stealth-bleed without even using master phase actions, transfers, or
pool?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail: santiago [at] umug [dot] org || Web: http://santiago.umug.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ceci n'est pas un 'sig block'."
Brian
> to Blood Fury at inferior, which is not super-impressive, but not actively
> worse than an existing effect.
Actually, yes, it is.
Blood Fury at basic does 2 damage for 1 blood and stops their weapons
from doing damage. Blood Fury can't be prevented by Fortitude. Bet
you were thinking of Blood Rage, which does 1 damage at basic for no
blood cost, and is otherwise identical to Blood Fury.
Burning Touch's basic(out) is also "Strike: 1 Damage", and it can't be
prevented by fortitude. It's already pretty dumb, I can do Strike: 1
Damage with my hands. But note it does not stop opposing weapons from
doing damage, which is enough for me to prefer eating it to playing
it.
For the basic(out), that is.
> Clotho's Gift is pretty damn huge for any
> weenie obf deck, where getting things from crypt to uncontrolled is a big
> deal -- I know I want about 12 of these, strictly for the outferior.
Amen.
....salem christ....
> "Heikki Poso" <hp...@rock.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:ov7kruw...@rock.helsinki.fi...
> > go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) writes:
> >
> > > In article <458e9b1c.01121...@posting.google.com>,
> > > Simidh <sim...@succubusclub.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >I am guessing we label the 'inferior mel: text 2'
> > > >level as Inferior, the 'superior mel: text 3' level
> > > >as Superior, but what do we term the
> > > >'inferior aus: text 1' level? Alternative?
> > > >Ulterior? :P
> > >
> > > Either Derek R or Peter B has been calling it 'inferior-out,' which
> > > seems descriptive and useful to me.
> >
> > Outferior? <g>
>
> Crap? <g>
spooky. i had been thinking of that term all through this thread, but just
hadn't gotten around to suggesting it yet. Is there something in the
water at your house, Greyseer? something other than the usual
big-city-gunk, that is? O:)
some mind-melding psychic weird stuff, mayhaps....
salem.
GreySeer
>
> spooky. i had been thinking of that term all through this thread, but just
> hadn't gotten around to suggesting it yet. Is there something in the
> water at your house, Greyseer? something other than the usual
> big-city-gunk, that is? O:)
> some mind-melding psychic weird stuff, mayhaps....
Hey, that was filtered gunky water you were drinking!
....salem christ....
nah, actually, i was drinking from the tap. you didn't point out the
filtered water until saturday evening, by which point i was subsiting
solely on energy drinks. O:)
salem.
PS: thanks again for your horsebrutality.