Destroying Heidelberg Castle - has it a last action ?
Magnus
Disaster to burn a Heidelberg Castle. The general concensus is, that
you can still use it one last time before it is burned to transfer
blood/retainers/etc. between minions, because there´s no restriction
in the cardtext when it can be used. Is this correct ? To me it seems
that the action to destroy HC has already been ended if it wasn´t
blocked/Sudden Reversaled, so it shouldn´t be able to use it anymore.
Thanks !
Magnus
Orpheus
> Disaster to burn a Heidelberg Castle. The general concensus is, that
> you can still use it one last time before it is burned to transfer
> blood/retainers/etc. between minions, because there´s no restriction
> in the cardtext when it can be used.
"Master: unique location. Tap to transfer equipment cards, move blood and
transfer retainers between any two ready vampires you control. (You may
choose the amount of blood you move and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be
used during an action. Alternate card name: Heidelburg Castle, Germany"
I think "Cannot be used during an action." is specific enough, wouldn't you
say ?
Is this correct ? To me it seems
> that the action to destroy HC has already been ended if it wasn´t
> blocked/Sudden Reversaled, so it shouldn´t be able to use it anymore.
I'd say so too. Card text and all. Correct, LSJ ? ;-)
Orpheus
reyda
"Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:70eabfe1.02071...@posting.google.com...
> The situation has come up in my playgroup, that I´ve used Unnatural
> Disaster to burn a Heidelberg Castle. The general concensus is, that
> you can still use it one last time before it is burned to transfer
> blood/retainers/etc.
Heidelburg castle cannot be used *during actions*. Once an action is
announced, we are in the "during action process", where you can play action
modifiers and reactions cards. So, as soon as a players shows the Arson and
declares the action, it's too late to tap heidelberg.
So if the methuselah didn't tap it before the arson, he has to make the
action fail if he wants to ever use it again =)
Kevin M.
No. (official card text: "Cannot be used during an action.")
See also:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist_H.html#Heidelberg_Castle_Germany
>
> Thanks !
Thank the card list. =)
>
> Magnus
Kevin M., Prince of Madison, WI (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Frederick Scott
>
> "Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:70eabfe1.02071...@posting.google.com...
> > The situation has come up in my playgroup, that I´ve used Unnatural
> > Disaster to burn a Heidelberg Castle. The general concensus is, that
> > you can still use it one last time before it is burned to transfer
> > blood/retainers/etc. between minions, because there´s no restriction
> > in the cardtext when it can be used. Is this correct ? To me it seems
> > that the action to destroy HC has already been ended if it wasn´t
> > blocked/Sudden Reversaled, so it shouldn´t be able to use it anymore.
>
> No. (official card text: "Cannot be used during an action.")
Why are a bunch of people mistaking Unnatural Disaster for Arson?
Unnatural Disaster is a master card. Arson is an action.
In fact, I would say that once the master card has been played, its
effect is atomic and only someone holding and playing a Sudden Reversal
would save the thing. According to the card rulings page: "Heidelberg
Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
In general, Heidelberg Castle is kind of a poor card because of such
things. The owner of HC can say, "I was _just_ about to announce that
I was using the thing at the start of your master phase (or end of your
untap phase or whatever) but you moved through it too fast to give me
a chance! Now we have to back up and let me do what I was planning to
do when you rushed your announcement." Of course, that's likely to be
bullshit and should be so ruled (unless the guy can actually make a
decent argument about why he would choose to use it at that moment),
but you can't technically prove the guy was lying. When in play and
untapped, to cover all their bases, each player should have to ask
the owner of HC to confirm that he does not wish to use the HC at this
time between each effect, card, and action (except during an action).
But few people would ever want to play like that. Stupid to have
such a thing.
Fred
Sorrow
Reyda, Orpheus, Kevin M... You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Your answers to this (particular) question were all wrong. You are right,
you cannot tap it during an action. However, in the circumstance
illustrated above, it was perfectly legal to tap the HC to use it when it
was.
Unnatural Disaster is a *Master* card, not an action card...
Sorrow
---
"Are they dead?" - Pugsly
"Does it matter?" - Wednesday
Halcyan 2
>Unnatural Disaster is a master card. Arson is an action.
>
>In fact, I would say that once the master card has been played, its
>effect is atomic and only someone holding and playing a Sudden Reversal
>would save the thing. According to the card rulings page: "Heidelberg
>Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
>all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
>combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
I agree. Unnatural Disaster (like most other cards, 'cept actions and strike
cards) take effect immediately (unless countered via SR or RT). There is no
opportunity to use Heidelburg. (Note that there *is* time to use it in the case
of Hostile Takeover or ToGP though).
>In general, Heidelberg Castle is kind of a poor card because of such
>things. The owner of HC can say, "I was _just_ about to announce that
>I was using the thing at the start of your master phase (or end of your
>untap phase or whatever) but you moved through it too fast to give me
>a chance! Now we have to back up and let me do what I was planning to
>do when you rushed your announcement." Of course, that's likely to be
>bullshit and should be so ruled (unless the guy can actually make a
>decent argument about why he would choose to use it at that moment),
>but you can't technically prove the guy was lying. When in play and
>untapped, to cover all their bases, each player should have to ask
>the owner of HC to confirm that he does not wish to use the HC at this
>time between each effect, card, and action (except during an action).
>But few people would ever want to play like that. Stupid to have
>such a thing.
Yep, that's exactly what you do. Before you Arson or Unnatural Disaster the
Heidelburg, you nonchalantly ask out loud if anyone wants to use any effects.
Of course to make sure people don't get too suspicious (and/or to psyche them
out), you ask them periodically and they have to wonder (does he have an
Arson?). Keeps people on their toes *and* prevents people from "claiming" they
didn't have a chance to use it when they were going to...
Halcyan 2
Jay Bond
wrote:
>SorroThis is not magic
Once the UD is announced, it resolves, unless a card with specific
wording, interupts it.
Kevin M.
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uisbr5h...@corp.supernews.com...
Wow, that was COMPLETELY funny that we all screwed that up!
hahaha =)
We all must dislike Unnatural Disaster so much that we don't even want to
THINK about it!
>
> Sorrow
Sorrow
> wording, interupts it.
But see, there has got to be a time between when it is announced
and everyone says that they aren't going to SR before it resolves.
Imagine this fictional card:
Time to go home
Master
Each Methuselah loses X pool where X is how much pool she currently
has.
I play "Time to go home". Everyone is ousted. Since noone is in the
game, noone can play a SR. So there has got to be a time between
when it is announced and when it is resolved to allow players to play
a SR. Since this isn't like an action where the onus of blocking is on
the Predator/Prey, anyone can Sudden. Typically, there is some time
of looking around to each player "You going to Sudden? No, are you?"
so while that is going on, if every master resolved when announced,
it'd be too late to go back and SR that above master.
If the above is too much of a stretch for you, imagine this real life
(possible) scenario. Your prey is at 2 pool and has a vamp (which is
at 0 blood) that has a .44 equipped and is Famous. You play Illegal
Search and Seizure on that vamp. It takes 1 damage which sends it to
torpor. Since it goes to Torpor, the Fame triggers causing 3 pool loss
and your prey is ousted - out of the game. Again, if all masters resolved
immediately, all of the above would happen before your prey can play
a SR. And now, since she is ousted and no longer in the game, she
can't even attempt to save herself with the SR in her hand.
Sorrow
---
If you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on,
you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made
your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you
from the earth.
LSJ
> According to the card rulings page: "Heidelberg
> Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
> all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
> combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
reyda
> Reyda, Orpheus, Kevin M... You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
If you examine the original post, here is what you find :
--
title : Destroying Heidelberg Castle - has it a last action ?
(first occurence of the word *Action*)
The situation has come up in my playgroup, that I´ve used Unnatural
Disaster to burn a Heidelberg Castle. The general concensus is, that
you can still use it one last time before it is burned to transfer
blood/retainers/etc. between minions, because there´s no restriction
in the cardtext when it can be used. Is this correct ?
**(at this point you are only reading this part : there is no errata,which
is not true since a ruling prevents the "intuitive" use of heidelberg as a
"fast-effect" Your brain is already driven on another matter !!)**
To me it seems that the action **(note the second occurence of the word
action !!)**
to destroy HC has already been ended if it wasn´t blocked/Sudden Reversaled
**(note the word Blocked : can a master card be blocked ?? no, no, no. Whe
we read sudden reversaled, we all thought Direct Invervention, which is
still logical !! Our brain is making this perfectly clear according to the
first misreading)*** so it shouldn´t be able to use it anymore.
---
so we failed, but the post is not innocuous !! Actions and blocked are
mentionned Three times where we heard about "Unnatural disaster" only once.
A good poster would be more precise about everything happening during the
master phase and would quote the ruling about heidelberg and actions... or
whatever =p
draw your own conclusions ;)
reyda
reyda
> Reyda, Orpheus, Kevin M... You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
If you examine the original post, here is what you find :
--
title : Destroying Heidelberg Castle - has it a last action ?
(first occurence of the word *Action*)
The situation has come up in my playgroup, that I´ve used Unnatural
Disaster to burn a Heidelberg Castle. The general concensus is, that
you can still use it one last time before it is burned to transfer
blood/retainers/etc. between minions, because there´s no restriction
in the cardtext when it can be used. Is this correct ?
jeroen rombouts
> > Once the UD is announced, it resolves, unless a card with specific
> > wording, interupts it.
>
> But see, there has got to be a time between when it is announced
> and everyone says that they aren't going to SR before it resolves.
> Imagine this fictional card:
>
> Time to go home
> Master
> Each Methuselah loses X pool where X is how much pool she currently
> has.
>
> I play "Time to go home". Everyone is ousted. Since noone is in the
> game, noone can play a SR.
False logic. SR's text makes it playable. It's not the other way around
(there is a card that can be played now, so there has to be a step/phase for
it)
So there has got to be a time between
> when it is announced and when it is resolved to allow players to play
> a SR. Since this isn't like an action where the onus of blocking is on
> the Predator/Prey, anyone can Sudden. Typically, there is some time
> of looking around to each player "You going to Sudden? No, are you?"
> so while that is going on, if every master resolved when announced,
> it'd be too late to go back and SR that above master.
Time in reality does not equal time in game terms. Sometimes people need to
read a card sombody else played, does this mean that there is a 'Read Card'
phase after every card played?
It's just card text overriding the general rules. Not adapting the rules
because a card *MIGHT* be played.
> If the above is too much of a stretch for you, imagine this real life
> (possible) scenario. Your prey is at 2 pool and has a vamp (which is
> at 0 blood) that has a .44 equipped and is Famous. You play Illegal
> Search and Seizure on that vamp. It takes 1 damage which sends it to
> torpor. Since it goes to Torpor, the Fame triggers causing 3 pool loss
> and your prey is ousted - out of the game. Again, if all masters resolved
> immediately, all of the above would happen before your prey can play
> a SR. And now, since she is ousted and no longer in the game, she
> can't even attempt to save herself with the SR in her hand.
All masters resolve immediately (ASMOF all cards except Actions and Strikes
resolve immediatly) . Only cards (Sudden Reversal, Rewind Time) with the
right text on them can do something about it.
Jeroen
Joshua Duffin
"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message
news:3D2E2D6E...@removethis.com...
> In general, Heidelberg Castle is kind of a poor card because of such
> things. The owner of HC can say, "I was _just_ about to announce that
> I was using the thing at the start of your master phase (or end of your
> untap phase or whatever) but you moved through it too fast to give me
> a chance! Now we have to back up and let me do what I was planning to
> do when you rushed your announcement." Of course, that's likely to be
> bullshit and should be so ruled (unless the guy can actually make a
> decent argument about why he would choose to use it at that moment),
> but you can't technically prove the guy was lying. When in play and
> untapped, to cover all their bases, each player should have to ask
> the owner of HC to confirm that he does not wish to use the HC at this
> time between each effect, card, and action (except during an action).
> But few people would ever want to play like that. Stupid to have
> such a thing.
The sequencing rules at [1.6.1.6] address this issue. It's
not specific to Heidelberg; there are lots of times that
pretty much anyone might be wanting to play an effect whenever
acting player is done with her effects.
In the Unnatural Disaster case, though, there would be no
opportunity for the Heidelberg-having player to use it "one
last time" "before" the Disaster: since active Meth is the
one wanting to play Unnatural Disaster, she goes first and
everyone else has to wait for her to be done playing effects
before they get any opportunities. (If the Heidelberg Meth
was really paranoid, she could say, when active Meth announces
"master phase", "wait, I want to use Heidelberg during your
untap". But once in the master phase, active player gets
the first chance to play effects.)
For Arson, the active player does have to allow "between
actions" time to the other players between the action before
Arson (or between final master-phase thing and first action,
if Arson's going to be the first action) and the Arson itself.
But again, once in minion phase, active player goes first.
Josh
stop 'em if they're going too fast
Frederick Scott
>
> "Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message
> news:3D2E2D6E...@removethis.com...
>
> > In general, Heidelberg Castle is kind of a poor card because of such
> > things. The owner of HC can say, "I was _just_ about to announce that
> > I was using the thing at the start of your master phase (or end of your
> > untap phase or whatever) but you moved through it too fast to give me
> > a chance! Now we have to back up and let me do what I was planning to
> > do when you rushed your announcement." Of course, that's likely to be
> > bullshit and should be so ruled (unless the guy can actually make a
> > decent argument about why he would choose to use it at that moment),
> > but you can't technically prove the guy was lying. When in play and
> > untapped, to cover all their bases, each player should have to ask
> > the owner of HC to confirm that he does not wish to use the HC at this
> > time between each effect, card, and action (except during an action).
> > But few people would ever want to play like that. Stupid to have
> > such a thing.
>
> The sequencing rules at [1.6.1.6] address this issue. It's
> not specific to Heidelberg; there are lots of times that
> pretty much anyone might be wanting to play an effect whenever
> acting player is done with her effects.
The sequencing rules address the issue. I was just making the point
that the sequencing rules are not a very good way to address the
issue because they tend to risk human misunderstanding unless all
these phases are moved through pedantically. I was not suggesting
anything was ambiguous about the rules.
> In the Unnatural Disaster case, though, there would be no
> opportunity for the Heidelberg-having player to use it "one
> last time" "before" the Disaster: since active Meth is the
> one wanting to play Unnatural Disaster, she goes first and
> everyone else has to wait for her to be done playing effects
> before they get any opportunities. (If the Heidelberg Meth
> was really paranoid, she could say, when active Meth announces
> "master phase", "wait, I want to use Heidelberg during your
> untap". But once in the master phase, active player gets
> the first chance to play effects.)
Your parenthetical text points at just exactly the hole in the
sentence above it. Once Master Phase arrives, Heidelberg cannot be
used before the card is played, I agree. But players are seldom
specific about the movement of one phase into the next, raising
the possibility of trouble. That's why I don't care for cards
that can be used at any moment like that.
Fred
Jay Bond
wrote:
SR = Specific wording that can interupt it.
Sorrow
>> Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
>> all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
>> combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
> Correct.
In that case, please respond to the example I gave this morning. If
all masters are instants, how can you SR if that master ousts you?
It makes no sense.
Sorrow
---
I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me.
They ask me if I feel remorse and I answer, "Why of course!
There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!"
So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy
Joshua Duffin
> >> According to the card rulings page: "Heidelberg
> >> Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
> >> all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
> >> combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
>
> > Correct.
>
> In that case, please respond to the example I gave this morning. If
> all masters are instants, how can you SR if that master ousts you?
> It makes no sense.
All "as X is happening" cards are effectively interrupts, because
it's necessary for them to work properly. Sudden Reversal is
played "while" another master card is being played; likewise
Direct Intervention "while" a minion card is being played.
In other words, it's Sudden Reversal and Direct Intervention (and
Rewind Time and possibly others) that are the exceptions (and they
create their own exception) to normal timing rules. You can't
generalize from SR to other masters; it's a special case.
LSJ has stated this more than once over the years; here's one
recent example.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=93hm0c%24k5j%241%40nnrp1.deja.com
Josh
suddenly...
LSJ
>
> >> According to the card rulings page: "Heidelberg
> >> Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
> >> all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
> >> combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
> > Correct.
>
> In that case, please respond to the example I gave this morning. If
> all masters are instants, how can you SR if that master ousts you?
> It makes no sense.
Some cards can be played "as cardX is played". Such cards can be played
as cardX is played. Others cannot - cards resolve when played in general.
Likewise, some action modifiers can be played "as the action is announced".
Those can be played as the action is announced. Others cannot.
Curevei
>as cardX is played. Others cannot - cards resolve when played in general.
>
>Likewise, some action modifiers can be played "as the action is announced".
>Those can be played as the action is announced. Others cannot.
There was a discussion involving an as announced action modifier a while back
where I thought that an example was given of playing a normal action modifier
during that step to get it in before it would be prevented and/or to play it
hoping to draw an as announced AM.
So, I just want to make sure you can't play a non-"as announced" AM when "as
announced" AMs are played.
LSJ
Right.
1) Announce the action
2) Play "as announced" stuff
3) Play other (after-announced) stuff
Magnus
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> > According to the card rulings page: "Heidelberg
> > Castle may not be tapped 'in response' to any instant effect (because
> > all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain
> > combat effects). [LSJ]". That seems to support my opinion.
>
> Correct.
Vielen Dank. :)
Magnus