Heidelburg Castle Timing
Tom Kassel
combat). [RTR 19980707]
This clearly applies to both the acting and non-acting Methuselahs. I
believe it follows from the sequencing rule (1.6.1 6.) that a non-
acting Methuselah can only use Heidelburg Castle after the acting
Methuselah has completed all his minion actions, i.e. cannot be used
between minion actions. At any earlier moment, the acting Meth always
wins ties and goes first. Correct?
This arose in Sunday's game, when Dave Hammond tried to move his
Raptors with the Castle to an untapped minion. I knew he couldn't do
that during the action, but let him do so after the action finished. I
think that was incorrect as I had further minion actions to take.
Tom
Sent via Deja.com
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LSJ
> Heidelburg Castle may not be used during an action (including during
> combat). [RTR 19980707]
>
> This clearly applies to both the acting and non-acting Methuselahs. I
> believe it follows from the sequencing rule (1.6.1 6.) that a non-
> acting Methuselah can only use Heidelburg Castle after the acting
> Methuselah has completed all his minion actions, i.e. cannot be used
> between minion actions. At any earlier moment, the acting Meth always
> wins ties and goes first. Correct?
No. The active player cannot "pre-empt" steps.
She cannot, for example, play a maneuver to prevent the blocker
from playing Drawing Out the Beast.
Similarly she cannot skip ahead to the next action to prempt
another Methuselah from doing something between actions.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Tom Kassel
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Heidelburg Castle may not be used during an action (including during
> > combat). [RTR 19980707]
> >
> > This clearly applies to both the acting and non-acting
Methuselahs. I
> > believe it follows from the sequencing rule (1.6.1 6.) that a non-
> > acting Methuselah can only use Heidelburg Castle after the acting
> > Methuselah has completed all his minion actions, i.e. cannot be used
> > between minion actions. At any earlier moment, the acting Meth
always
> > wins ties and goes first. Correct?
>
> No. The active player cannot "pre-empt" steps.
> She cannot, for example, play a maneuver to prevent the blocker
> from playing Drawing Out the Beast.
> Similarly she cannot skip ahead to the next action to prempt
> another Methuselah from doing something between actions.
>
minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has precedence over
minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an Arson action
against an untapped Heidelberg Castle before its controller has a
chance to use it?
Tom
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
> >
> This seems a curious ruling. Are you saying that there is a "non-
> minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has precedence over
> minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an Arson action
> against an untapped Heidelberg Castle before its controller has a
> chance to use it?
>
No, as soon as you announce an action Heidelburg cannot be tapped. But any
time during your minion phase while no action is resolved, before you
announce your next action, the controller can say "Wait, I'll tap Heidelburg
and move the Sport Bike and two blood from Rake to Donal".
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Han la hodet in til hennes bryst - han horte hennes hjerteslag - folte
blodets gang i hennes are - og han kjendte to braendende laeber mot sin nakke
- det gav ham en frysning gennem legemet - en frysende vellyst sa han
krampakti trykket hende til sig" (E. Munch, "Vampyr")
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > No. The active player cannot "pre-empt" steps.
> > She cannot, for example, play a maneuver to prevent the blocker
> > from playing Drawing Out the Beast.
> > Similarly she cannot skip ahead to the next action to prempt
> > another Methuselah from doing something between actions.
> >
> This seems a curious ruling. Are you saying that there is a "non-
> minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has precedence
> over minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an Arson
There is a "before range" step that has "precendence" over (only in
that is occurs before) the "determine range" step.
In an exact parallel, there is a time before the next action is
begun wherein things that are done before the next action is begun
can be done.
> action against an untapped Heidelberg Castle before its controller
> has a chance to use it?
You cannot pre-empt the controller and play Arson if the controller
wants to tap HC before the next action, no.
Just as you cannot pre-empt a blocking minion and play a maneuver
if the blocking minion wants to play Torn Signpost.
Both rulings are "curious" in the same way, and I've never heard
anyone describe the latter as "curious".
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Tom Kassel
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > This seems a curious ruling. Are you saying that there is a "non-
> > minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has precedence
over
> > minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an Arson action
> > against an untapped Heidelberg Castle before its controller has a
> > chance to use it?
> >
>
> No, as soon as you announce an action Heidelburg cannot be tapped.
But any
> time during your minion phase while no action is resolved, before you
> announce your next action, the controller can say "Wait, I'll tap
Heidelburg
> and move the Sport Bike and two blood from Rake to Donal".
>
tries to establish his effect first. That's just what the sequencing
rules very sensibly avoid. LSJ's example of Drawing out the Beast and
Maneuver is based on the existence of explicit pre-range, maneuver, pre-
strike and strike steps in combat. As now applied to the Minion Phase,
it suggests action declaration steps and non-action declaration steps.
If a non-action effect can take place before any action, it must surely
be possible before the first action of the phase as well.
Tom
Tom Kassel
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > > No. The active player cannot "pre-empt" steps.
> > > She cannot, for example, play a maneuver to prevent the blocker
> > > from playing Drawing Out the Beast.
> > > Similarly she cannot skip ahead to the next action to prempt
> > > another Methuselah from doing something between actions.
> > >
> > This seems a curious ruling. Are you saying that there is a "non-
> > minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has precedence
> > over minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an Arson
>
> There is a "before range" step that has "precendence" over (only in
> that is occurs before) the "determine range" step.
>
> In an exact parallel, there is a time before the next action is
> begun wherein things that are done before the next action is begun
> can be done.
>
first action also qualify? You didn't quite answer my question about
Arson which assumed that Arson was the first action of the minion phase.
> > action against an untapped Heidelberg Castle before its controller
> > has a chance to use it?
>
> You cannot pre-empt the controller and play Arson if the controller
> wants to tap HC before the next action, no.
>
> Just as you cannot pre-empt a blocking minion and play a maneuver
> if the blocking minion wants to play Torn Signpost.
>
> Both rulings are "curious" in the same way, and I've never heard
> anyone describe the latter as "curious".
Combat seems to have a pretty well defined set of steps, while the
curiosity of the castle is that it is forbidden during a current
action. Most other effects that the non-acting Methuselah might want
to do (Barrens, for example) are playable during an action. I can't
think of another effect that the non-Methuselah can do that needs a
similar non-action step, but I expect I've overlooked some.
Tom
LSJ
> > > This seems a curious ruling. Are you saying that there is a "non-
> > > minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has precedence
> > > over minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an Arson
> >
> > There is a "before range" step that has "precendence" over (only in
> > that is occurs before) the "determine range" step.
> >
> > In an exact parallel, there is a time before the next action is
> > begun wherein things that are done before the next action is begun
> > can be done.
> >
> Does next action mean the second and subsequent actions? Or does the
> first action also qualify? You didn't quite answer my question about
It includes the time before the first action, of course.
> Arson which assumed that Arson was the first action of the minion
> phase.
Yes, I did - see the part of my post which follows the question
(below).
> > > action against an untapped Heidelberg Castle before its controller
> > > has a chance to use it?
> >
> > You cannot pre-empt the controller and play Arson if the controller
> > wants to tap HC before the next action, no.
The answer regarding your Arson question is found above.
(Where the Arson action is the would-be "next" action.)
> > Just as you cannot pre-empt a blocking minion and play a maneuver
> > if the blocking minion wants to play Torn Signpost.
> >
> > Both rulings are "curious" in the same way, and I've never heard
> > anyone describe the latter as "curious".
>
> Combat seems to have a pretty well defined set of steps, while the
> curiosity of the castle is that it is forbidden during a current
> action. Most other effects that the non-acting Methuselah might want
> to do (Barrens, for example) are playable during an action. I can't
> think of another effect that the non-Methuselah can do that needs a
> similar non-action step, but I expect I've overlooked some.
I don't see the problem here, other than some players have become
familiar with the "before range" template.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
> This can't be correct. It leads to a shouting match where each player
> tries to establish his effect first. That's just what the sequencing
> rules very sensibly avoid.
Why is there going to be a shouting match? If a card like Heidelburg is in
play, the controller can tap it any time outside the resolution of an action.
Where is the problem? The moment you announce the Arson action from you
example, there is no way Heidelburg can be tapped. But by the rules it can be
tapped before, and as the acting player you have to give everybody an
opportunity to do anything they want, as long as the rules permit it. You
don't have to ask "Do you want to tap Heidelburg?", but if the controller
says "Wait" when he sees that you are about to take your next action, then
you have to wait.
I mean, how do you deal with cards like The Barrens or Dreams Of The Sphinx,
which the controller can tap any time he wants? They certainly don't fit in
any sequencing scheme.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Han la hodet in til hennes bryst - han horte hennes hjerteslag - folte
blodets gang i hennes are - og han kjendte to braendende laeber mot sin nakke
- det gav ham en frysning gennem legemet - en frysende vellyst sa han
krampakti trykket hende til sig" (E. Munch, "Vampyr")
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Tom Kassel
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > This can't be correct. It leads to a shouting match where each
player
> > tries to establish his effect first. That's just what the
sequencing
> > rules very sensibly avoid.
>
> Why is there going to be a shouting match? If a card like Heidelburg
is in
> play, the controller can tap it any time outside the resolution of an
action.
> Where is the problem? The moment you announce the Arson action from
you
> example, there is no way Heidelburg can be tapped.
Not true - see LSJ's replies in this thread. Arson may not be played
before the non-acting Meth can tap the castle. There is a step before
actions (analogous to the pre-range step in combat) in which the non-
acting Meth may perform effects. The acting Meth can too, of course,
and his/her effects will go first.
> But by the rules it can be
> tapped before, and as the acting player you have to give everybody an
> opportunity to do anything they want, as long as the rules permit it.
Yes, when a castle is in play (or any other permanent with similar
timing - is there any?), the acting Meth should say "Anything pre-
action?", just as one says "Anything pre-range?" in combat.
> You
> don't have to ask "Do you want to tap Heidelburg?", but if the
controller
> says "Wait" when he sees that you are about to take your next action,
then
> you have to wait.
>
> I mean, how do you deal with cards like The Barrens or Dreams Of The
Sphinx,
> which the controller can tap any time he wants? They certainly don't
fit in
> any sequencing scheme.
>
They aren't a problem because they can be done at any time. A
potential blocker has the "block decision" step to use them to find
some intercept, etc.
Tom
Tom Kassel
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > > Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > This seems a curious ruling. Are you saying that there is
a "non-
> > > > minion action stuff" step in the Minion Phase which has
precedence
> > > > over minion actions? So, for example, I could never play an
Arson
> > >
> > > There is a "before range" step that has "precendence" over (only
in
> > > that is occurs before) the "determine range" step.
> > >
> > > In an exact parallel, there is a time before the next action is
> > > begun wherein things that are done before the next action is begun
> > > can be done.
> > >
> > Does next action mean the second and subsequent actions? Or does
the
> > first action also qualify? You didn't quite answer my question
about
>
> It includes the time before the first action, of course.
>
Fine. I just wasn't clear whether your reference to next action
included the first.
{snip}
> I don't see the problem here, other than some players have become
> familiar with the "before range" template.
My problem was that the errata on Heidelberg says when it can't be
played, not when it can. Torn Signpost is easy as it says play before
range. Other players (both newbies and experienced) have had a problem
being aware of the errata at all. I've corrected two players in my
last two sessions.
I'm curious about the errata. Was it determined that the original
intent had been non-playable during an action or had play experience
determined that the effect was too strong? (Shadowfist players would
be right at home with the effect as printed as playing guns, etc at the
last moment in combat is the norm).
Tom
LSJ
> My problem was that the errata on Heidelberg says when it can't be
> played, not when it can.
Ah. It can be tapped at any time except during an action.
This includes all times outside of the minion phase, as well
as inside the minion phase except during actions.
> I'm curious about the errata. Was it determined that the original
> intent had been non-playable during an action or had play experience
> determined that the effect was too strong? (Shadowfist players would
> be right at home with the effect as printed as playing guns, etc at
> the last moment in combat is the norm).
I had the good fortune to talk to the designer of that card and can
safely say that the change was not due to the "designer intent".
The effect caused problems in combat (by moving equipment away from
a combatant after the equipment was chosen for a strike or targeted
by a strike, etc.).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Andrew S. Davidson
>I don't see the problem here, other than some players have become
>familiar with the "before range" template.
Perhaps I can explain. Jyhad had solid timing rules. The timing was
either based upon the card type or, in the case of Master cards, the
timing was made explicit in the card text. And the rules spelt out
what you could do during another player's turn:
13. WHAT YOU CAN DO WHEN IT IS NOT YOUR TURN
13.1 Playing Out-of-turn Cards
13.2 Playing Reaction Cards
13.3 Blocking An Action
Combat is covered separately in section 15 but otherwise that's it -
there are no fast effects which can be used as and when you please.
Subsequent expansions introduced cards like Heidelberg Castle which
gave you no clue as to when you could use their effect. I assume
that the design team took the timing rules for Magic for granted
without realising that Jyhad was different and had no such thing as an
instant.
The VTES rules didn't improve matters and Sabbat didn't have a full
rulebook. That brings us to Sabbat War which has inherited a bit of a
mess but doesn't seem to realise it. I've already pointed out the
hole in the voting rules. The SW rulebook briefly touches on the
concept of an "effect" in 1.6.1.6 Sequencing but doesn't trouble to
define the term, explain how it differs from an action and how the two
interact. Another hole.
Andrew
skaffen_amtiskaw
>> Why is there going to be a shouting match? If a card like Heidelburg
>is in
>> play, the controller can tap it any time outside the resolution of an
>action.
>> Where is the problem? The moment you announce the Arson action from
>you
>> example, there is no way Heidelburg can be tapped.
>
>Not true - see LSJ's replies in this thread. Arson may not be played
>before the non-acting Meth can tap the castle. There is a step before
>actions (analogous to the pre-range step in combat) in which the non-
>acting Meth may perform effects. The acting Meth can too, of course,
>and his/her effects will go first.
You took the sentence out of context. I continued with saying:
>
>> But by the rules it can be
>> tapped before, and as the acting player you have to give everybody an
>> opportunity to do anything they want, as long as the rules permit it.
>
Here's the card text for Heidelburg:
Master: unique location. Tap to transfer equipment cards, move blood,
and transfer retainers between any two ready vampires you control.
(You may choose the amount of blood you move and which cards you
transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
Your turn has untap, master, minion, influence and discard phases.
The controller can tap Heidelburg any time he wants - but not when you
are taking an action. When your minion phase begins you can do many
things - most importantly you can take actions with your minions, but
you could also tap Dreams Of The Sphinx first to increase your hand.
Heidelburg is not concerned about what phase it is, only if an action
is resolved. That can only happen in any Methusalah's minion phase. If
you have a problem with allowing the tapping of Heidelburg before you
take your first action, consider it to happen at the end of your
master phase. But that doesn't matter. By card text you can tap it any
time, with one restrictrion: not during an action. Hell, you could
even tap it simultanously to another player taping his Barrens. In
short: There is no sequencing for these sort of "effects".
Tom, you said that Barrens and Dreams are not problematic for you.
Heidelburg is essentially the same, with one restriction. Your minion
phase is normally filled with your minions taking actions, other Meths
blocking etc. But nowhere in the rules it says anything about a strict
sequencing of events. There is room for Heidelburg to be tapped
anytime when none of your minions is acting, including the very
beginning of the minion phase. This phase is not defined by you
taking actions. It begins when you are finished with your master
phase, and it ends when you move on to your influence phase.
Derek Ray
wrote:
>In article <93fg1v$ua9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Why is there going to be a shouting match? If a card like Heidelburg
>is in
>> play, the controller can tap it any time outside the resolution of an
>action.
>> Where is the problem? The moment you announce the Arson action from
>you
>> example, there is no way Heidelburg can be tapped.
>
>Not true - see LSJ's replies in this thread. Arson may not be played
>before the non-acting Meth can tap the castle. There is a step before
>actions (analogous to the pre-range step in combat) in which the non-
>acting Meth may perform effects. The acting Meth can too, of course,
>and his/her effects will go first.
I think you play with Andrew too much.
In general, during play, there is a brief (10 sec or more) pause
between minion actions while the acting Methuselah considers just WHAT
he wants to do next; in this time, the Castle's controller can say
"after that last action, I tap the Castle and do my little dance."
Ten seconds is certainly a reasonable amount of time for a Methuselah
to announce something that he'd already decided on, or at least to
begin speaking.
When the acting Methuselah finishes thinking and says "OK, I'd like to
Arson the Castle", the Castle's controller may not STOP him and say
"But wait! Inbetween actions...", because there was plenty of time
inbetween actions for him to have tapped the Castle if that was what
he wanted to do.
The onus here is largely on the person with the Castle; he should be
aware that he can only tap it inbetween actions, and should be
prepared to take advantage of an "inbetween action" moment if that's
what he wants to do. If he hadn't decided yet whether he wanted to
tap the Castle, tough rocks to him. He has an opportunity between
actions to tap it; he does not have any opportunity to DECIDE whether
to tap it or not.
And if you have an acting Methuselah who is deliberately attempting to
hurry things (announcing his next action immediately as the first
concludes, etc.) to deny the Castle-owner even a chance to speak and
say "hey! I want to tap the Castle!", then you just smack the acting
Methuselah over the head and say "Quit being a Magic player."
I can say that I have personally NEVER seen a situation where someone
wanted to tap the Castle, but didn't have the time to because the
acting player was playing too quickly.
The following is not addressed to Tom nor any specific person.
<rant>
This sort of munchkinny, ten-year-old, powergaming, rules-lawyer
BULLSHIT, by the way, is exactly what pisses me off about gamers these
days. It seems none of them have the nuts to win at the table; they
all want to win on a technicality. Well, you know what? Fuck that.
If you want to try to be that way, fine; but with three other players
at your table, it should be real obvious that "Well, he had a minute
or two to say he wanted to tap the Castle, he just didn't until the
Arson was played", or "He was sure in a real hurry to play the Arson;
the guy didn't even have time to start SPEAKING before he had the card
out on the table".
I cannot understand why all you little powergamers out there can't see
that it's obvious to everyone when you do this sort of bullshit, and
that any decent judge will rule against you on the spot, no matter
whether you're "technically" correct or not? Do you really think that
we're all so STUPID as to not know how to handle people like you?
It's a game. It's going to stay a game, even should fire drop out of
the sky and somehow we end up with million-dollar-prize National
Championships or something. So treat it as a game, and try to have
fun; don't try to dominate people and boost your fragile little
pathetic egos.
</rant>
>> But by the rules it can be
>> tapped before, and as the acting player you have to give everybody an
>> opportunity to do anything they want, as long as the rules permit it.
>
>Yes, when a castle is in play (or any other permanent with similar
>timing - is there any?), the acting Meth should say "Anything pre-
>action?", just as one says "Anything pre-range?" in combat.
No, he just shouldn't go crazy rushing to throw his next action
around. Think about it; how often do you naturally announce your next
action within ten seconds of the last one completing? I'm gonna bet
on "less than 2% of the time", and usually when you're going down a
line of weenies saying "bleed for 1... bleed for 1... bleed for 1..."
or the like.
-- Derek
Goon-of-the-Month club member
"In a MAN's game, you tap things that block." -- F. Scott, 2001
Derek Ray
wrote:
>I'm curious about the errata. Was it determined that the original
>intent had been non-playable during an action or had play experience
>determined that the effect was too strong? (Shadowfist players would
>be right at home with the effect as printed as playing guns, etc at the
>last moment in combat is the norm).
Play experience determined that often, things like this would happen:
- "I Bum's Rush that minion with the Sports Bike and Ivory Bow."
- "OK, fine. I block the Rush so you can't maneuver."
- "OK. Before range, i play Drawing out the Beast and Flesh of
Marble... shame about your Bow."
- "Ummm... I tap Heidelburg and move all the blood, the Sports Bike,
and Bow to this other minion over here."
And the above sequence is obviously FAR too cheesy for words, hence
"may no longer tap it during an action". As LSJ pointed out, there
were also some more concrete problems with targeting equipment to
steal/destroy, and having the equipment vanish from underneath.
There were also some problems with someone announcing an unexpected
action, adding stealth, and then someone Heidelburging over some blood
and an intercept card so as to have the "right" minion doing the
blocking when they were actually quite unprepared.
wes
"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> > 13. WHAT YOU CAN DO WHEN IT IS NOT YOUR
TURN
>
> 13.1 Playing Out-of-turn Cards
> 13.2 Playing Reaction Cards
> 13.3 Blocking An Action
What? No explicitly mentioned bathroom breaks?
Tom Kassel
<0E94D895C04657BB.38F2B26F...@lp.airnews.net>,
a...@csi.com wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 16:53:30 GMT, LSJ wrote:
>
> >I don't see the problem here, other than some players have become
> >familiar with the "before range" template.
>
> Perhaps I can explain. Jyhad had solid timing rules. The timing was
> either based upon the card type or, in the case of Master cards, the
> timing was made explicit in the card text. And the rules spelt out
> what you could do during another player's turn:
>
> 13. WHAT YOU CAN DO WHEN IT IS NOT YOUR TURN
>
> 13.1 Playing Out-of-turn Cards
> 13.2 Playing Reaction Cards
> 13.3 Blocking An Action
>
> Combat is covered separately in section 15 but otherwise that's it -
> there are no fast effects which can be used as and when you please.
>
been universally interpreted as playable at any time. Heidelberg
Castle (in the errata version) just adds the complication of playable
some of the time.
Tom
Tom Kassel
skaffen_...@my-deja.com (skaffen_amtiskaw) wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >> Why is there going to be a shouting match? If a card like
Heidelburg
> >is in
> >> play, the controller can tap it any time outside the resolution of
an
> >action.
> >> Where is the problem? The moment you announce the Arson action from
> >you
> >> example, there is no way Heidelburg can be tapped.
> >
> >Not true - see LSJ's replies in this thread. Arson may not be played
> >before the non-acting Meth can tap the castle. There is a step
before
> >actions (analogous to the pre-range step in combat) in which the non-
> >acting Meth may perform effects. The acting Meth can too, of course,
> >and his/her effects will go first.
>
> You took the sentence out of context.
My apologies. I didn't mean to misrepresent your position.
> I continued with saying:
> >
> >> But by the rules it can be
> >> tapped before, and as the acting player you have to give everybody
an
> >> opportunity to do anything they want, as long as the rules permit
it.
> >
>
> Here's the card text for Heidelburg:
>
> Master: unique location. Tap to transfer equipment cards, move blood,
> and transfer retainers between any two ready vampires you control.
> (You may choose the amount of blood you move and which cards you
> transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
>
> Your turn has untap, master, minion, influence and discard phases.
> The controller can tap Heidelburg any time he wants - but not when you
> are taking an action. When your minion phase begins you can do many
> things - most importantly you can take actions with your minions, but
> you could also tap Dreams Of The Sphinx first to increase your hand.
> Heidelburg is not concerned about what phase it is, only if an action
> is resolved. That can only happen in any Methusalah's minion phase. If
> you have a problem with allowing the tapping of Heidelburg before you
> take your first action, consider it to happen at the end of your
> master phase. But that doesn't matter. By card text you can tap it any
> time, with one restrictrion: not during an action. Hell, you could
> even tap it simultanously to another player taping his Barrens. In
> short: There is no sequencing for these sort of "effects".
But there is one specified in 1.6.1. 6. The acting Meth always to gets
to perform his effects first. My interpretation of this was that
Heidelberg Castle could not be used in the minion phase until the
acting Meth has said he will perform no further effects. LSJ has ruled
that there is a non-action step preceding the first minion action and
between each minion action which allow the castle to be tapped. This
is fine with me. He's the rules authority and can do as he likes, but
this step is new to me and I see no hint of it either in the rulebook
or Heidelberg Castle card text.
>
> Tom, you said that Barrens and Dreams are not problematic for you.
Because the effects can be generated when the non-acting Meth is
entitled to generate effects while contemplating a block or reaction.
Rather more problematic is the master phase. My reading of the
sequencing rules is that the acting Meth performs all his actions first
without any possible intervention from other players (apart from Sudden
Reversal). At any stage, he wants to do the next effect and 1.6.1 6.
allows him to do so. As there can't be any blocks and I don't think
any reactions are playable during the master phase, the non-acting
Meths just have to wait.
Consider a situation where the acting Meth has three master phase
actions (from whatever sources). He plays ToGP and wins the auction.
His prey say "Oh, shit. Here come Minion Tap and Golconda again. I
better use my Barrens and hope for a Sudden". I contend that he has no
chance to do so, by 1.6.1 6. I begin to suspect that this is a
minority opinion. Do players simply ignore 1.6.1 6?
> Heidelburg is essentially the same, with one restriction. Your minion
> phase is normally filled with your minions taking actions, other Meths
> blocking etc. But nowhere in the rules it says anything about a strict
> sequencing of events.
Apart from 1.6.1 6.
> There is room for Heidelburg to be tapped
> anytime when none of your minions is acting, including the very
> beginning of the minion phase.
My contention was that until he has said he will do no more minion
actions, the acting Meth is always either performing an action or
considering the next action that he will perform, which, by 1.6.1 6,
will happen before any non-acting Meth can act. Just because nothing
seems to be happening, it doesn't mean another player is entitled to
play an effect. This leads to an orderly game in which shouting for
the next action is avoided because it is always clear who's turn it is
to act.
LSJ has introduced a between-minion-action step which now explicitly
allows the castle to tap between minion actions. This is fine too and
suitably orderly.
Tom Kassel
Tom Kassel
In article <1hom5tc3r9ns3ba7f...@4ax.com>,
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 17:44:51 GMT, Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <93fg1v$ua9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> Why is there going to be a shouting match? If a card like
Heidelburg
> >is in
> >> play, the controller can tap it any time outside the resolution of
an
> >action.
> >> Where is the problem? The moment you announce the Arson action from
> >you
> >> example, there is no way Heidelburg can be tapped.
> >
> >Not true - see LSJ's replies in this thread. Arson may not be played
> >before the non-acting Meth can tap the castle. There is a step
before
> >actions (analogous to the pre-range step in combat) in which the non-
> >acting Meth may perform effects. The acting Meth can too, of course,
> >and his/her effects will go first.
>
> I think you play with Andrew too much.
>
In this case the original question was prompted by Dave Hammond's
Raptor deck. After the game, I reread the sequencing rules and came to
the (now corrected) conclusion that the castle couldn't be used between
actions by the non-acting Meth.
My interest is an orderly game in which the player entitled to act is
identifiable at any time. At times (like combat), one expresses the
sequence explicitly ("any thing before range?", "any maneuver?", etc).
At other times, one just plays effects. No problem as long as everyone
agrees who is entitled to do so.
> In general, during play, there is a brief (10 sec or more) pause
> between minion actions while the acting Methuselah considers just WHAT
> he wants to do next; in this time, the Castle's controller can say
> "after that last action, I tap the Castle and do my little dance."
> Ten seconds is certainly a reasonable amount of time for a Methuselah
> to announce something that he'd already decided on, or at least to
> begin speaking.
>
Basing entitlement to play effects on the passage of time is as
problematic as judging legal rhymes. Far better to have clear rules on
who can do what when.
> <snipped rant>
No idea what that was about - possibly being awake and reading the NG
at 5am?
LSJ
Only in that everything resolves instantaneously, except actions
(which resolve during the "resolve action" step) and strikes
(which resolve during the "resolve strike" step). Most players
view this as an avoidance of the timing issue altogether (since
the makers had learned how difficult timing stacks were with
that other game). There are no "instants" or "interrupts" or
other speeds of resolution. Unless you want to count Sudden
Reversal and Direct Intervention, which are basically "interrupts".
> > was
> > either based upon the card type or, in the case of Master cards, the
> > timing was made explicit in the card text. And the rules spelt out
> > what you could do during another player's turn:
> >
> > 13. WHAT YOU CAN DO WHEN IT IS NOT YOUR TURN
> >
> > 13.1 Playing Out-of-turn Cards
> > 13.2 Playing Reaction Cards
> > 13.3 Blocking An Action
> >
> > Combat is covered separately in section 15 but otherwise that's it -
> > there are no fast effects which can be used as and when you please.
You're making the mistake of reading a list of possibilities
as an exclusive list. That you can do the things listed above
doesn't mean you cannot do other things - like call a Blood Hunt,
burn a political action card for a vote, tap KRCG for intercept,
etc. when it is not your turn.
> Not true. The Barrens was present in Jyhad as a tap effect which has
> been universally interpreted as playable at any time. Heidelberg
> Castle (in the errata version) just adds the complication of playable
> some of the time.
Correct. Since it was intended to be tappable at any time, the
designers wrote it without a restriction on when it could be tapped.
Likewise for HC. HC proved problematic when usable "any time" so
a restriction was placed on it (contrary to designer intent).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
> Consider a situation where the acting Meth has three master phase
> actions (from whatever sources). He plays ToGP and wins the auction.
> His prey say "Oh, shit. Here come Minion Tap and Golconda again. I
> better use my Barrens and hope for a Sudden". I contend that he has
> no chance to do so, by 1.6.1 6. I begin to suspect that this is a
> minority opinion.
Minority opinion or no, this is correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Halcyan 2
>(which resolve during the "resolve action" step) and strikes
>(which resolve during the "resolve strike" step). Most players
>view this as an avoidance of the timing issue altogether (since
>the makers had learned how difficult timing stacks were with
>that other game).
LOL! I really liked how you referred to it as "that other game."
>There are no "instants" or "interrupts" or
>other speeds of resolution.
Yeah, this became SUCH a pain. Back in the old days, I liked playing Blue with
intercept and it was great how interrupts were faster than instants and other
side effects.
But then somewhere down the line (around the time that I stopped) they
introduced an additional concept of Mana Source. The most annoying thing was
that Mana Sources couldn't be countered. It used to be note Flash Counter (from
the Legends Expansion) was actually quite good since it countered "an
interrupt" as opposed to "a spell," so it could be used when people tried
tapping mana producing things that counted as interrupts (like Birds of
Paradise). Boy could you mess people up with upkeep costs ("I tap all three of
my Birds of Paradise for the only black mana I have to feed my Demonic Hordes."
"Sorry but I Flash Counter one of those interrupts so you can't pay upkeep").
>Correct. Since it was intended to be tappable at any time, the
>designers wrote it without a restriction on when it could be tapped.
>Likewise for HC. HC proved problematic when usable "any time" so
>a restriction was placed on it (contrary to designer intent).
Wait, so did the designer "intend" for it to be used in the situation where it
would save equipment, etc. from getting destroyed? (Someone recently posted a
good example of trying to destroy the Ivory Bow).
Halcyan 2
Derek Ray
wrote:
>My interest is an orderly game in which the player entitled to act is
>identifiable at any time. At times (like combat), one expresses the
>sequence explicitly ("any thing before range?", "any maneuver?", etc).
>At other times, one just plays effects. No problem as long as everyone
>agrees who is entitled to do so.
In this instance, the player entitled to take actions is the acting
Methuselah. Players with other effects may ALSO use them as
appropriate; the Barrens can be tapped at any time, for example.
Heidelburg may be tapped at any time EXCEPT during an action. Since
one action must conclude before another begins, it is not unreasonable
to assume that there is a window of unspecified time inbetween
actions; hence if a Methuselah wished to tap Heidelburg inbetween
actions, he would have the opportunity.
Due to human limitations (being forced to actually speak more than a
few words to indicate that he wishes to tap Heidelburg inbetween
actions), it's necessary to assume a certain amount of natural human
politeness... in that someone will not attempt to frantically rush
multiple actions to deny the opportunity tap Heidelburg by denying the
opportunity to speak, and in that someone will not wait until an
action is about to be announced and say "WAIT! i wanted to tap
Heidelburg."
>> In general, during play, there is a brief (10 sec or more) pause
>> between minion actions while the acting Methuselah considers just WHAT
>> he wants to do next; in this time, the Castle's controller can say
>> "after that last action, I tap the Castle and do my little dance."
>> Ten seconds is certainly a reasonable amount of time for a Methuselah
>> to announce something that he'd already decided on, or at least to
>> begin speaking.
>>
>Basing entitlement to play effects on the passage of time is as
>problematic as judging legal rhymes. Far better to have clear rules on
>who can do what when.
It was intended as an example of why I have never actually seen the
"shouting match" you were afraid of when someone wanted to tap
Heidelburg inbetween actions, and would never actually expect to.
Simply indicating that the Heidelburg owner is the one whom the onus
is on to state his wishes, and then discouraging acting Methuselahs
from being speds, should be sufficient.
>> <snipped rant>
>
>No idea what that was about - possibly being awake and reading the NG
>at 5am?
Well, that's not at all abnormal. No, it's just me bemoaning the fact
that rules-lawyery players of the types in the rant exist, forcing us
to actually jump through these painful, nitpicky hoops.
bartok...@my-deja.com
owning barrens CAN NOT tap them to see whether sudden comes or not
until "acting" player finishes all of his three master phase actions,
but he has - according the rule mentioned - wait AFTER all 3 actions
are done?
LSJ
> >Correct. Since it was intended to be tappable at any time, the
> >designers wrote it without a restriction on when it could be tapped.
> >Likewise for HC. HC proved problematic when usable "any time" so
> >a restriction was placed on it (contrary to designer intent).
>
> Wait, so did the designer "intend" for it to be used in the situation
> where it would save equipment, etc. from getting destroyed? (Someone
> recently posted a good example of trying to destroy the Ivory Bow).
I wouldn't go that far. It was merely intended to be tappable at
any time - I do not claim that all the possibly ramifications of
that design were consciously "intended" by the designer.
LSJ
> LSJ, should i understand this model situation by that way, that player
> owning barrens CAN NOT tap them to see whether sudden comes or not
> until "acting" player finishes all of his three master phase actions,
> but he has - according the rule mentioned - wait AFTER all 3 actions
> are done?
Yes, although you could tap the Barrens at the end of her untap phase
before she begins taking her MPAs.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
James Coupe
<tka...@my-deja.com> writes
>My interest is an orderly game in which the player entitled to act is
>identifiable at any time. At times (like combat), one expresses the
>sequence explicitly ("any thing before range?", "any maneuver?", etc).
>At other times, one just plays effects. No problem as long as everyone
>agrees who is entitled to do so.
When someone has a Heidelburg Castle, just ask them "Do you want to tap
it?" every now and then.
If you have a Heidelburg Castle, just say (as combat ends, or an action
ends) "Oh, I'll use the Heidelburg when you've done this
action/combat/whatever."
Acting Methuselah has precedence to do anything during any given step.
They can't just end the step, however. An acting Methuselah could just
end their minion phase to stop you using Madness Network, were that the
case.
When Madness Network is in play, most people just stop for five seconds
and say "Any actions?" to the Malkavian players, rather than going
straight to influence (and a potential argument). The same can be done
here.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"What's wrong with wanting more?
If you can fly -- then soar!
With all there is, why settle for just a piece of sky?"
Noal McDonald
> There were also some problems with someone announcing an unexpected
> action, adding stealth, and then someone Heidelburging over some blood
> and an intercept card so as to have the "right" minion doing the
> blocking when they were actually quite unprepared.
Which is why I reaally like LSJ's solution to the matter. After the
usual moaning and groaning subsided, people actually started using
Heidelburg more intelligently. The Seven Raptors family of decks, for
example.
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
Tom Kassel
feel happier that the rules are there as a backstop. In this case,
it's necessary to prevent a player gaining advantage either from too
speedy declaration of actions or from delayed HC tapping by waiting
until an action has been declared and attempting to back up. The
actual protocol adopted to give the HC controller his opportunity
doesn't matter. What does seem important is that he does have an
absolute entitlement to tap between actions.
Derek Ray
wrote:
>> Due to human limitations (being forced to actually speak more than a
>> few words to indicate that he wishes to tap Heidelburg inbetween
>> actions), it's necessary to assume a certain amount of natural human
>> politeness... in that someone will not attempt to frantically rush
>> multiple actions to deny the opportunity tap Heidelburg by denying the
>> opportunity to speak, and in that someone will not wait until an
>> action is about to be announced and say "WAIT! i wanted to tap
>> Heidelburg."
>>
>Any game will ultimately depend on reasonably civilized behavior, but I
>feel happier that the rules are there as a backstop. In this case,
>it's necessary to prevent a player gaining advantage either from too
>speedy declaration of actions or from delayed HC tapping by waiting
>until an action has been declared and attempting to back up. The
Here, you simply have to rely on a judge who is willing to come over
and bop the offenders sharply across the forehead and tell them to
"quit being Magic players." Now you see why I ranted; the fact that
such players exist offends me to a great degree.
>actual protocol adopted to give the HC controller his opportunity
>doesn't matter. What does seem important is that he does have an
>absolute entitlement to tap between actions.
He does, for the most part. He may tap the Heidelburg at any time,
except during an action. The reason you can't give him an ABSOLUTE
entitlement is because then someone will wait until they see an
action, and then say "wait! i wanted to tap Heidelburg!" ... and
because he has an "ABSOLUTE" entitlement, you have to let him. Better
to just let the judge and other players do some bopping as
appropriate, and acknowledge that there is, in fact, a window of
opportunity for the Heidelburg player to tap inbetween actions. If he
feels it necessary, he can (as someone else mentioned) state during
the conclusion of an action "After this is over, I'll be tapping
Heidelburg". I leave the onus on the Heidelburger; and I believe that
doing that and declaring that a "window" exists is sufficient.
People's natural tendency is not to "rush" their actions, so anyone
attempting to be a weenie about that would be very obvious.
LSJ
> He does, for the most part. He may tap the Heidelburg at any time,
> except during an action. The reason you can't give him an ABSOLUTE
> entitlement is because then someone will wait until they see an
> action, and then say "wait! i wanted to tap Heidelburg!" ... and
You can always do just as you do in combat:
When HC is untapped and you're about to start another action, you
say "I'm not doing anything before the next action..." and then
look to the HC controller for the same words, as you do when
starting combat ("I've got nothing before range...").
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Derek Ray
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> He does, for the most part. He may tap the Heidelburg at any time,
>> except during an action. The reason you can't give him an ABSOLUTE
>> entitlement is because then someone will wait until they see an
>> action, and then say "wait! i wanted to tap Heidelburg!" ... and
>
>You can always do just as you do in combat:
>When HC is untapped and you're about to start another action, you
>say "I'm not doing anything before the next action..." and then
>look to the HC controller for the same words, as you do when
>starting combat ("I've got nothing before range...").
Yeah, but in combat, the reacting minion DOES have an absolute
entitlement to play pre-range cards. Since I don't know what he MIGHT
be playing, it makes sense for me to say "nothing from me, how about
you?" without giving any of my plans away.
Asking the Heidelburger if he's going to use it before taking an
action to Arson it is tantamount to saying "Something is about to
happen to your Heidelburg. Better get ready." And asking him if he's
going to use it before EVERY action will get annoying rapidly. =)
If I were inclined to be excruciatingly fair-minded and polite about
it, I would say something like "ok, for my next action..." and then
stall for a few seconds while holding a card facedown and looking
around the table at everyone's stuff. If he didn't hop up and say
"wait, let me tap Heidelburg" then, I would drop the Arson and
maintain that he was attempting to tap HB in response to the Arson.
I shouldn't have to, though; as long as I'm not rushing through my
turn like a maniac, announcing one action on the heels of the next so
as to make the window for speech as narrow as possible, I shouldn't
have to stop and ask the HB owner every time "gonna use that?" It
seems like it might slow the game down appreciably. =/