Card changes to match the source material?
Aaron Clark
people think that card design should have to represent the source
material from the RPG. However, if you could change cards to make
them match the source material better, what would you change?
My votes:
1. Obedience - usable before entering combat with an ally as well as a
younger vampire. Why? Dominate powers worked on non-vampires in the
RPG.
2. Seduction - usable on allies at both basic and superior. Same
reason as above.
3. Wolf Claws, Claws of the Dead, Bone Spur, etc. - should have to be
played before strikes. Why? Vampires have to sprout the claws BEFORE
using them!
Any other ideas?
Ashur
And Disarm and Decapitate should be usable on all minions as well. It
would have been no biggie to errata those cards back in 1998 or so,
but of some reason White Wolf has chosen to have it another way. I
guess it must be to confuse new players.
Orpheus
> Very old topic. Yes, of course Dominate should be usable on mortals.
Mortals is the key word. Allies wouldn't be good : once more, zombies can't
be dominated, as they have no BRAAAAAAAAAAAAINS !!
As for Werewolves and co I'm not sure whether it should work on them... If
it does, then we're down to "non-wraith, non zombie allies" ibce more... B)
> And Disarm and Decapitate should be usable on all minions as well. It
> would have been no biggie to errata those cards back in 1998 or so,
> but of some reason White Wolf has chosen to have it another way. I
> guess it must be to confuse new players.
Not to confuse ?
Obtenebration
Same reason anti-tribu is so wrong. WotC was in charge of it.
Why is a Brujah who becomes Sabbat, still a Brujah, and not a Brujah
anti-tribu?
Had it been changed when Sabbat War came out it wouldn't have caused
too much of an issue. At this point though, it's a tad late and not
worth the hassle it would be.
Someone arguing to make Dominate stronger though(no matter how much
sense it does make in the game world), isn't something you see often.
Azel
wrote:
you do bring up a definite problem. it is as if all the original 7
Camarilla clans got double the crypt choices while other "big clans",
Tzimisce, Lasombra, big 4 Indies, the Laibon 4, all got significantly
less. in fact, i find that the Laibon is a huge opportunity to address
this w/o the additional issues of new clan cards, such as the big 7
getting a HG for regular and antitribu. you could easily flesh out
Tzimisce, Lasombra, Ravnos, Followers of Set, and Assamites by
fleshing out their Laibon counterparts. you could even bring Harbinger
of Skulls and Salubri anti (and maybe Samedi?), into more crypt
options (maybe 1.5 the size of a great clan). it would be a rather
neat solution overall.
now what i also would like is a set of Laibon big 4 and Imbued for
G1&2. but that's a pipe dream... or a fan set.
Peter D Bakija
Why would limiting errata be to confuse new players? Generally
speaking, whenever anyone decries errata, it is 'cause "it'll confuse
new players". And here we have you decrying a lack of errata to
confuse new players.
The internet is awesome.
Yes. They could have changed Disarm and Decapitate in 1998. Years
before anyone ever thought of the Imbued (which is the only case that
it matters that Disarm and Decapitate doesn't effect allies) to affect
allies. 'Cause that would have made sense then. Check.
Is it somewhat problematic that Disarm, Decapitate, and Taste don't
work on the Imbued? Sure, but it only matters in a game play sense.
Who cares if it doesn't make "reality" sense? That whole issue flies
out the window when you have vampiric snakes on motorcycles firing
hand guns.
-Peter
Atom Weaver
> Very old topic.
Reeeeal old topic;
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/375eef60fe1a616b?dmode=source
In my defense, I've mellowed out in the intervening nine years...
well, a little bit, anyways. :P
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
XZealot
> On Oct 16, 4:15 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Very old topic.
>
> Reeeeal old topic;
>
>
> In my defense, I've mellowed out in the intervening nine years...
> well, a little bit, anyways. :P
Please sing the "I'm a Vampire Sadist"! I know you still got it!
Aaron Clark
> On Oct 16, 4:15 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Very old topic.
>
> Reeeeal old topic;
>
>
> In my defense, I've mellowed out in the intervening nine years...
> well, a little bit, anyways. :P
>
> DaveZ
> Atom Weaver
Well please forgive me because I wasn't playing VTES between 1996 and
2008.
Atom Weaver
My voice is a bit rusty, so bear with me.
a-HEM...
Atomweaver *Sings*
_I'm_ an Evil VTES Sadist
Yes its true
I spend my turn
Taking bleeds at you
I burn my preds minions,
and next time around...
I'll vote to switch
the seating around...
I'm an Evil VTES Sadist
Yes, indeed
More PTO's
are the thing I need
Cross-table Rush
Kindred Spirits in Reverse
Are the bestest things
in the universe
I'm an Evil VTES Sadist
Hey lets play!
Where are you guys going?
The game's supposed to be this way...
I'm an Evil VTES Sadist
Sitting home by myself
My VTES cards
Are sitting on a shelf...
;-)
DZ
AW
Atom Weaver
Naw, dude, don;'t get me wrong... its all good. :-) You just brushed
on a bit of old nostalgia, is all. This thread, for me its like
hearing 90's grunge on an FM radio... or maybe Nirvana Musak. :P
DZ
AW
Ashur
If you think logically, there is no reason at for it to be easier for
a vamp to rip the arms and head of another vamp compared to a mortal.
Immerse into the game, get the feeling of vamps in combat, not paper
cards with rules on a table. It get´s so much funnier that way! If you
´re into fun?
Matthew T. Morgan
> Yes. They could have changed Disarm and Decapitate in 1998.
They could've, but why would they? Decapitate wouldn't have made any
sense to change. It's only playable when the opposing vampire is headed
to torpor. At the time, any ally that lost all its life was burned. Why
would they change Decapitate?
Disarm maybe makes a little more sense, but I mean if you really want to
be sensible about it, you'd have to define allies that have arms and will
die if they lose them. Would tearing an arm off a War Ghoul kill it? No,
it's got like 11 more. So yeah, let's put the "Has Arms and Will Die If
They Are Torn Off" trait on some ally cards.
Not picking on you, Peter. I just think the premise that these cards
might've been changed before Imbued is highly flawed.
Matt Morgan
Obtenebration
Have it say Mortal Ally. And have it say you get +1 damage against
zombie allies using their arm as an improvised weapon.
Brum
Besides being old, this discussion is equal to asking the remake of
the whole game, because of the huge number of changes.
The only realistic way to improve and keep the game in "story" is
through the crypts. And that has been done fairly well.
Example: Wake With the Evening's Freshness is a Thaumaturfycal Ritual.
Wizards made it a reaction with no discipline.
To change such a core card would impact the game in a big way.
Cheers,
Tiago
Aaron Clark
I'm also thinking in terms of the cards making sense with what their
titles ostensibly describe.
For instance, I don't see a reason why Decapitate at superior should
be changed to affect allies, since if you already did that much
damage, the ally would be burned anyway.
However, I think Decapitate at superior should only be useable at
close range. Why? - It's not possible to reliably remove a specific
body part using a ranged strike. Saying that because of this combo:
Eye of Hazimel, Mayaparisatya, Decapitate.
Likewise, Taste of Vitae - only be useable at close range. Why? - To
taste somebody's blood, the vampire's got to be close.
Matthew T. Morgan
> However, I think Decapitate at superior should only be useable at
> close range. Why? - It's not possible to reliably remove a specific
> body part using a ranged strike. Saying that because of this combo:
> Eye of Hazimel, Mayaparisatya, Decapitate.
Bah. You deny me the chance to decapitate somebody with a sewer lid?
Come on! How cool is that?
> Likewise, Taste of Vitae - only be useable at close range. Why? - To
> taste somebody's blood, the vampire's got to be close.
Yeah, after I knock his head off with a sewer lid, I casually walk up to
the corpse and help myself. What's the problem?
Matt Morgan
Peter D Bakija
> They could've, but why would they?
They wouldn't have.
> Not picking on you, Peter. I just think the premise that these cards
> might've been changed before Imbued is highly flawed.
If you go back and reread my post, you'll discover that I'm actually
saying the exact same thing you are.
:-)
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> If you think logically, there is no reason at for it to be easier for
> a vamp to rip the arms and head of another vamp compared to a mortal.
Logic is irrelevant in this game. Vampiric snakes. On motorcycles.
With RPG launchers.
> Immerse into the game, get the feeling of vamps in combat, not paper
> cards with rules on a table. It get´s so much funnier that way!
Yeah, see, I'm not convinced this is the case. The game works just
fine as a card game. I'm not really concerned with if it makes "sense"
or not.
-Peter
Pullen
Well, one way to deal with this problem is to just print new cards, an
Obedience type card that worked on allies but didn't have the untap
ability might be a nice addition, without making Dominate more
powerful ( as it is already the best discipline in the game).
Good Boy
Type: Reaction
Requires: Dominate
Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with
an acting younger vampire or ally.
[dom] This reacting vampire can end combat as a strike on the first
round of combat.
[DOM] Untap the acting minion, do not tap this reacting vampire, and
end the current action (and combat). The acting vampire cannot attempt
the same action this turn.
as for the Potence cards, same type of thing
Dismember
Type: Combat
Requires: Potence
[pot]Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire
successfully inflicted 4 or more damage at close range than the
opposing minion. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into
torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire
into torpor or burn the opposing ally.
[pot] as above, but this vampire may only need to inflict 3 or more
damage.
Useful, but doesn't wallpaper Disarm or Decapitate.
Just my 2 cents.
Pullen
Forgot to add the, " this vampire does not untap as normal" text to
Desmember
Matthew T. Morgan
> If you go back and reread my post, you'll discover that I'm actually
> saying the exact same thing you are.
Yes, I knew that. I was clumsily trying to insert additional evidence
early in the morning before coffee 'cause someone upthread had said
something about how the cards could've been changed back when or
something. The point is the release of NoR was maybe a sensible point to
change these cards. Doing so before then wouldn't have made any sense.
Also, I can turn invisible and throw people through buildings. If you
can't, that's your problem.
XZealot
BRAVO! BRAVO!
Kevin M.
How I wish this could go into the FAQ so that Peter wouldn't have
to waste his time and my time typing the same response every time
someone complains about the cards not working IRL.
Perhaps we need a CCG FAQ here for these people? ;)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Kevin M.
CCG FAQ v0.01
1. What is a CCG?
2. Why don't the cards in a CCG work the same as in real life?
3. Why can't I wrap my head around CCG effects that aren't
like in real life? WHY CAN'T A CCG MAKE SENSE??!?!!
4. Why can't I stop posting on CCG forums about this?
5. Are there other people with this problem?
6. Is there a support group for people like me?
7. Credits/Acknowledgements
Peter D Bakija
> Yes, I knew that. I was clumsily trying to insert additional evidence
> early in the morning before coffee 'cause someone upthread had said
> something about how the cards could've been changed back when or
> something. The point is the release of NoR was maybe a sensible point to
> change these cards. Doing so before then wouldn't have made any sense.
Ah, yes. Indeed. Yeah, see, changing Disarm and Decapitate to have
affected allies way before the Imbued came out (i.e., say, 1998, as
was suggested) would have been completely senseless--at that point in
time, any strike that was going to enable a potence minion to play
Disarm or Decapitate was just going to burn the mortal ally anyway. So
changing them to burn allies or whatever was not something that was
ever going to happen.
After the Imbued came out, it was kind of too late to change them, as
they had been reprinted multiple times by then, and changing them just
to affect the Imbued was just unnecessary errata. I mean, yeah, it is
a pain in the ass they you can't Decapitate or Disarm an Imbued, but
not such a huge problem that it really requires fixing them.
I mean, yeah, they could go and change them *now*. But that is adding
a lot of unnecessary (game balance wise) errata and confusing people
for no real vital reason. And one might note that an awful lot of new
cards that burn allies have been printed in the last few expansions,
as if the designers were like "Huh. It would be good if there were
more ways to burn the Imbued. Let's add some new cards that do
that..."
> Also, I can turn invisible and throw people through buildings. If you
> can't, that's your problem.
So that is why I have been living in shame all these years...
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> How I wish this could go into the FAQ so that Peter wouldn't have
> to waste his time and my time typing the same response every time
> someone complains about the cards not working IRL.
While I certainly appreciate the thought, you clearly misunderstand
how I consider the use of my time :-)
> Perhaps we need a CCG FAQ here for these people? ;)
Doesn't Jeff have a FOCS FAQ around somewhere that would cover this
sort of thing?
-Peter
Kevin M.
> Well, one way to deal with this problem is to just print new cards, an
> Obedience type card that worked on allies but didn't have the untap
> ability might be a nice addition, without making Dominate more
> powerful ( as it is already the best discipline in the game).
And after printing these new cards you can then NOT reprint the
older cards and you can call it a de facto ban and then Fred Scott
will become really frustrated with you and go on and on and on and on
about how de facto bans really aren't bans and that they're bad for the
game and that White Wolf had better reprint the old cards and then
they do get reprinted and no one uses the new cards anymore.
Do you *really* want to print new cards like the old cards? ;)
Peter D Bakija
> I'm also thinking in terms of the cards making sense with what their
> titles ostensibly describe.
This whole idea falls under the realm of:
"In this way lies madness."
There are sooo many cards that don't make any sort of literal sense.
And trying to make them all work "logically" is just an endless
exercise in fruitless tweakage. I mean, yeah, if you want to make
house rules to tweak things, go nuts. But hoping the game cards change
to go in this direction? Not going to happen.
Vampiric snakes. On motorcycles. With RPG launchers.
-Peter
Aaron Clark
>
> Bah. You deny me the chance to decapitate somebody with a sewer lid?
> Come on! How cool is that?
>
>
> > Likewise, Taste of Vitae - only be useable at close range. Why? - To
> > taste somebody's blood, the vampire's got to be close.
>
> Yeah, after I knock his head off with a sewer lid, I casually walk up to
> the corpse and help myself. What's the problem?
>
> Matt Morgan
But you were standing across a busy highway when you threw that sewer
lid. By the time you got over there, the body had mysteriously
vanished. ;-) (And well, the answer is yes. Unless you're using one
of those fancy-shmancy razor-edge shuriken-type sewer lids.)
According to the game, you don't go to close range again until the
beginning of the next round, if any. That's my thinking. You can
also use Taste of Vitae even if the opposing vampire doesn't go to
torpor. Do you run up and lick the blood off the ground after you've
hit him from range and he's fled combat...?
As for the Decapitate thing, you wouldn't necessarily decapitate the
vampire with your chosen strike that round. Lots of different strikes
can send a vampire to torpor. I imagine what happens is the other
vamp is injured into torpor, then you bend down and rip off his/her
head using your mighty Potence.
If you're at range, it's hard to do the Decapitation thing before the
torpor faeries come and shuffle the vampire off to the inactive
region.
Frederick Scott
"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message
news:tc5Cm.1375$MZ1...@newsfe11.iad...
> Pullen wrote:
>> Well, one way to deal with this problem is to just print new cards, an
>> Obedience type card that worked on allies but didn't have the untap
>> ability might be a nice addition, without making Dominate more
>> powerful ( as it is already the best discipline in the game).
>
> And after printing these new cards you can then NOT reprint the
> older cards and you can call it a de facto ban and then Fred Scott
> will become really frustrated with you and go on and on and on and on
> about how de facto bans really aren't bans and that they're bad for the
> game and that White Wolf had better reprint the old cards and then
> they do get reprinted and no one uses the new cards anymore.
I only go "on and on and on" if you interject how you "weren't saying
that" every time I try to point to some obvious implication of what
you just got done saying.
For a real sputtering good reaction, toss in yet another suggestion to
"go back and look at my post" without even the tinyest hint of anything
of substance to which you might be referring. I really love that!
"Welcome to the Kevin Mergen 'Guess-What-I-Actually-Mean' School of
Exposition."
> Do you *really* want to print new cards like the old cards? ;)
Well, I'm not sure he was actually implying a total cessation of printing
useful cards that new players would want to obtain. Perhaps that's only
how _you'd_ do it? I don't know...
Fred
Kevin M.
See Pullen! I *told* you! :)
brandonsantacruz
> torpor faeries come and shuffle the vampire off to the inactive
> region.
Yeah, combat in the CCG has compatibility issues where the RPG is
concerned.
"I beat you into torpor, cya later."
"Hah, that punch was actually wolf claws! Now go to torpor, fool!"
"I target your vitals!" "But wait, I'm dead...."
"Your sword missed because I dodged. Bye now!"
"I use my gun to run away quickly" "I slam into you just as quickly.
Now you can't use your gun because I want to hit you. Pft, point
blank."
Mechanically, it works. Thematically, it's a bit off. So it goes.
Brandon
bwross
> Example: Wake With the Evening's Freshness is a Thaumaturfycal Ritual.
> Wizards made it a reaction with no discipline.
> To change such a core card would impact the game in a big way.
True, but I've felt for a long time that thaum should have gotten a
Wake alternative of its own to make up for it. That would seem to be
the best way to rectify this (because the game certainly needed at
least one generic Wake right from the beginning, and this was the
choice they made). Although it's less of a big deal now that auspex
has Eyes of Argus.
In fact, one area where thaum is terribly weak is reactions. It has
only an outerior on Scry the Hearthstone and an option on a three way
(Detect Authority)... even potence (long regarded as the most single
minded discipline in the game[*]) has a reaction card completely to
itself (Touch of Pain).
Brent Ross
[*] Although, recent sets have been giving it non-combat options.
Making it possible to make some use the potence you have lying around
in things like a non-combat Giovanni deck. Or not, but the important
thing is it is now a choice.
Kushiel
> Also, I can turn invisible and throw people through buildings. If you
> can't, that's your problem.
I knew it. I KNEW it! This explains so much.
Got your number now, buddy.
John Eno
Kushiel
> Vampiric snakes. On motorcycles. With RPG launchers.
This is the kind of thing that keeps us playing the game.
John Eno
Pullen
> Pullen wrote:
> > Well, one way to deal with this problem is to just print new cards, an
> > Obedience type card that worked on allies but didn't have the untap
> > ability might be a nice addition, without making Dominate more
> > powerful ( as it is already the best discipline in the game).
>
> And after printing these new cards you can then NOT reprint the
> older cards and you can call it a de facto ban and then Fred Scott
> will become really frustrated with you and go on and on and on and on
> about how de facto bans really aren't bans and that they're bad for the
> game and that White Wolf had better reprint the old cards and then
> they do get reprinted and no one uses the new cards anymore.
>
> Do you *really* want to print new cards like the old cards? ;)
Yes, and I agree with Fred :P
Peter D Bakija
> > Vampiric snakes. On motorcycles. With RPG launchers.
>
> This is the kind of thing that keeps us playing the game.
Indeed. I'm a big fan myself :-)
-Peter
Matthew T. Morgan
> Vampiric snakes. On motorcycles. With RPG launchers.
You keep bringing this up seemingly as an example of something that
doesn't make sense.
I saw Josh Duffin yesterday, but he didn't see me.
Matthew T. Morgan
> But you were standing across a busy highway when you threw that sewer
> lid. By the time you got over there, the body had mysteriously
> vanished. ;-) (And well, the answer is yes. Unless you're using one
> of those fancy-shmancy razor-edge shuriken-type sewer lids.)
I guess you figure I'm in the Sabbat, flinging lids across a busy highway.
> According to the game, you don't go to close range again until the
> beginning of the next round, if any. That's my thinking. You can
> also use Taste of Vitae even if the opposing vampire doesn't go to
> torpor. Do you run up and lick the blood off the ground after you've
> hit him from range and he's fled combat...?
I'm not sure why you are trying to make this make sense. Taste of Vitae
doesn't make sense. It never has.
Example: Koko strikes Ozmo for 2 with inferior Undead Strength and plays
Taste of Vitae at the end of the round. So we're expected to believe that
Koko's mighty fist caused Ozmo's blood to spray everywhere and then Koko
ran around licking it all up. He got every drop and none was wasted and
he did this really fast, before anybody could throw another punch, despite
not having Celerity.
Why is it that's fine for you but you can't imagine a Sewer Lid
decapitating somebody?
Matt Morgan
Peter D Bakija
> You keep bringing this up seemingly as an example of something that
> doesn't make sense.
No, no. Just an example of awesome.
-Peter
Johannes Walch
Are you stalking Josh?
Matthew T. Morgan
> Matthew T. Morgan schrieb:
>>
>> I saw Josh Duffin yesterday, but he didn't see me.
>
> Are you stalking Josh?
No. He just gets very focused on his cell phone conversations and tends
not to notice things around him like old vtes buddies, falling anvils,
stuff like that. I fear for his safety.
Juggernaut1981
As long as he stays away from cartoon piano movers he should be okay.
But Dogs w/ Sniper Rifles, Leather Jackets, Sports Bikes and Listening
to Radio Stations or Reading Newspapers is legal but rediculously far
fetched... So the game abandoned being fully representative of real
life a while ago...
Johannes Walch
Any game involving vampires abandoned being fully representative of real
life by definition. There is no such thing as vampires.
Raziel
You cant be serious dude. There are no vampires ? Bullcrap ! ( ;) )
Boogie
> But Dogs w/ Sniper Rifles, Leather Jackets, Sports Bikes and Listening
> to Radio Stations or Reading Newspapers is legal but rediculously far
> fetched... So the game abandoned being fully representative of real
> life a while ago...
Krakow by Night - round 1 table 4 (I think)
Underbridge Stray with Camera Phone bleeds for one ousting prey.
Table conversation:
Player A: Hello? (making an impression of answering the phone)
Player B: [puffs and blows]
Player A: Honey! It's the pervert calling again!
Player B: Woof Woof
It's only a game - it doesn't have to be really real - cmon - you are
playing with vampires. That was vampire dog taking pictures with his
cell phone. I'm good with that :)
B.
Matthew T. Morgan
> As long as he stays away from cartoon piano movers he should be okay.
Do you think I should warn him?
> But Dogs w/ Sniper Rifles, Leather Jackets, Sports Bikes and Listening
> to Radio Stations or Reading Newspapers is legal but rediculously far
> fetched... So the game abandoned being fully representative of real
> life a while ago...
Poor Rover. How do you expect him to accomplish anything in life when you
think so little of him?
librarian
>
> Any game involving vampires abandoned being fully representative of real
> life by definition. There is no such thing as vampires.
Thank you Johannes, you very succinctly summed up my feelings on this topic.
best -
chris
bwross
> Any game involving vampires abandoned being fully representative of real
> life by definition. There is no such thing as vampires.
That's in the premise of OWoD/VtES[*], so it's an exception... it can
still get considered as realistic fantasy if the premise is set
against a realistic universe. Mind you, the existence of mages in the
OWoD really pushes that boundary, because magick is free-form. But in
VtES, the issue is more one of granularity... it's not realistic
because making it so would just make the game fiddly and over
complicated. With games, the rule is always playability over realism
(even The Campaign for North Africa simplifies things a bit so that it
only takes 4-5 people a side to do the book keeping for a 1200 hour
game).
Brent Ross
[*] Namely, that supernatural beings exist.