Powerbase: Los Angeles Event #1 (TWD)
The Lasombra
Strategicon - GAMEX 2010
Los Angeles, California
May 29, 2010
12 players
2R + F
Darby Keeney's Tournament Winning Deck
http://groups.google.com/group/vtesinla/browse_frm/thread/e1774094e2ddb3d1
Deck Name : [2010 TW] The World's Biggest Small Multirushers
Author : Darby Keeney
Comments: Many thanks to Fred Scott for lending me 2 Tupdogs for this
tournament. Generally, I have found a 2.5:1 Tupdog-to-!Tremere ratio
to work out pretty well, though a long string of Dogs at the top pf
one's crypt is frustrating.
The objective for this deck is to get additional mileage from the
Tupdogs...decreasing their effective cost from 1 pool per action to
0.5 pool per action and further leveraging both the rush and the slave
option (rush first, untap, available for slave clause, take an action
of the slave clause is not needed).
The deck is supposed to carry 1 more Ashur Tablet, but I seem to own
only 5 at this time. 4, 6 or 7 seem like the right numbers to me,
depending on your risk tolerance and recycling needs.
Synergies:
Carver's + Dragonbound and Carver's + Vessel are pretty clear.
Carver's + Raw Recruit is an indefinate hold on a Recruit target (that
could not be Graverobbed). Carver's not affecting Tupdogs is a bonus.
Heidleburg can save master vampires from dangerous hunting
requirements, can empty a Tupdog of before it explodes and allows 2
Hand of Conrad actions per turn.
Crypt [18 vampires] Capacity min: 1 max: 5 average: 1.72222
------------------------------------------------------------
13x Tupdog 1 POT VIS Gargoyle:3
1x Esoara 5 DOM aus for pot !Tremere:4
1x Janine 4 aus dom tha !Tremere:4
1x Ember Wright 3 aus dom !Tremere:3
1x Keith Moody 3 DOM !Tremere:4
1x Saiz 3 aus dom !Tremere:3
Library [79 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [13]
5x Dive Bomb *//stealth multi-rush as a "spare" Tupdog action
1x Goblinism *//destroy location as a "spare" Tupdog action.
2x Graverobbing
3x Raw Recruit *//additional slaves from a "spare" Tupdog action.
2x Thin-Blooded Seer *//Tupdog "spare" actions.
Action Modifier [8]
8x As the Crow *//makes my Tuppers freaky.
Ally [1]
1x Nephandus (Mage) *//safe removal of torporized minions.
Combat [39]
8x Brick by Brick
8x Immortal Grapple
4x Lead Fist *// critical to circumvent "prevent 1" decks
9x Raking Talons *//probably should be 10.
10x Stonestrength
*// a "good" combat ran "set close and agg hands, grapple, prevent and
untap"
Equipment [2]
1x Hand of Conrad *//recycle Tupdogs, should probably be duplicated.
1x Sargon Fragment, The *//recycle everything else
Event [1]
1x Dragonbound
Master [13]
5x Ashur Tablets *//tune late-game combat as needed.
1x Carver's Meat Packing and Storage *//anti-weenie.
1x Dreams of the Sphinx *//combat support or free Tupdogs.
1x Fame
1x Heidelberg Castle, Germany
1x Powerbase: Montreal *//free Tupdogs
1x Secure Haven *//to contest and to save a slave master.
2x Vessel
Political Action [2]
1x Ancient Influence *//eradicate your prey and call as a "spare"
Tupdog action
1x Reins of Power *//eradicate your predator and call as a "spare"
Tupdog action
brandonsantacruz
Brandon
alex fnurp
> Congrats on the two wins!
>
> Brandon
Congrats indeed, and what a genius design! I drool all over this (and
my lack of tupdogs ;)! Sweet job, i really like this creative take on
the now-classical tupdog.dec :)
alex_fnurp
Raziel
Meh, i dislike tuppies. And i know those cards will help this fuckin'
shit. No congrats.
Darby Keeney
> On 9 Juni, 01:35, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Congrats on the two wins!
> Congrats indeed, and what a genius design! I drool all over this (and
> my lack of tupdogs ;)! Sweet job, i really like this creative take on
> the now-classical tupdog.dec :)
>
> alex_fnurp
Thanks guys. If you can dig up the dogs and the tablets, this deck is
a LOT of fun to play (for the deck driver, at least) and is
surpisingly steady in its cardflow. I had originally built it in the
68-72 card range, but I just couldn't get it to work as well as this
80 card version.
The best part of the tournment was hearing people say "I didn't know
they could do that" over and over again :)
librarian
Ever played them?
They are hilarious when you are running them.
best -
chris
TorranceCircle
> a LOT of fun to play (for the deck driver, at least)
What do you mean? I thought it was fun to say Max Shade Fellwalker's
art on Annabelle really does look eerily like she should be a
Gargoyle!!! ; )
>
> The best part of the tournment was hearing people say "I didn't know
> they could do that" over and over again :)
That wasn't me, all I know is I knew I was in deep @#@$! Even before
Anabelle was stolen (thats right! I got robbed!) before I had a chance
to act with her. The deck was simply brutal and it ran like clockwork.
Darby played it with a certain artistic quality as well, and that
deserves kudos! I do wonder how it would perform in an environment
with more prevent damage. In my nightmares I still see Triabelle
getting raw and forsaking her twin progenitors as her skin slowly
turned from flesh to that rocky carapace so common to gargoyle
recruits, Oh, the Horror! the Horror!
Kushiel
> Action Modifier [8]
> 8x As the Crow *//makes my Tuppers freaky.
I'm wondering if this will make people think that the smart play is
blocking the non-stealth rush...
John Eno
Peter D Bakija
> > Action Modifier [8]
> > 8x As the Crow *//makes my Tuppers freaky.
>
> I'm wondering if this will make people think that the smart play is
> blocking the non-stealth rush...
I'm guessing the trick is to take the stealth actions first (Dive
Bomb, wacky votes, whatever) and *then* 0 stealth rush.
-Peter
Aaron Clark
can't say I was very happy with Darby's deck. I'm glad Darby had fun,
because I'm pretty sure he was the only one at the table I was at.
The only way to deal with the Tupdog's combat now is heavy damage
prevention. Unless someone is playing damage prevention, Tupdogs will
own any 4-player table. When I saw Darby's Tupdogs, I had thought
that my having a deck heavy in maneuvers would give me at least a
chance, but when he pulled out the set range card (which I wasn't
familiar with), the maneuvers were no defense at all. I shouldn't
have influenced out a single minion, which again is pretty un-fun.
The Tupdogs now also have +1 stealth rush and a +1 stealth
graverobbing cards, which means that you can't even protect your more
important vampires by chump-blocking, unless you're also playing
consistent intercept. Chump-blocking is also a weak protection
because the Tupdogs now have untap tech.
I know it's sour grapes, but I think Tupdogs were already powerful
enough that they didn't need the tech to bypass almost every remaining
defense against them so efficiently. !Ventrue are looking better and
better because of their damage prevention. I seems like there are now
two kinds of VTES players: those who own Tupdogs and those who don't.
Kushiel
> I'm guessing the trick is to take the stealth actions first (Dive
> Bomb, wacky votes, whatever) and *then* 0 stealth rush.
Sounds like good theory. Five stealth rushes out of 80 cards doesn't
make it all that likely to happen that way consistently, though.
Standard caveat applies: I'm not saying it doesn't work (pretty
clearly it does), I'm just wondering about metagame knock-on effects.
John Eno
Raziel
> As one of the people that said "I didn't know they could do that", I
> can't say I was very happy with Darby's deck. I'm glad Darby had fun,
> because I'm pretty sure he was the only one at the table I was at.
Yup.
LSJ fucked up badly giving such cards to 1 cap vampires.
mhi...@gmail.com
> The only way to deal with the Tupdog's combat now is heavy damage
> prevention. Unless someone is playing damage prevention, Tupdogs will
> own any 4-player table.
Tupdog-Buster -
Gran Madre De Dio, Italy.
Cardtype: Equipment
In play, this is a unique location and does not count as equipment.
When your predator or prey puts a minion in play in any phase except
the untap phase, that minion is tapped. If that minion is a younger
vampire, he or she burns 1 blood.
Admittedly, it's a 2006 promo, but eBay prices on it seem reasonable(~
$3) if you don't already have it.
-Matt H.
alex fnurp
Yeah, that single copy of it in your deck is really going to help ;)
mhi...@gmail.com
Just draw Gran Madre in your opening hand and put it in play with your
first turn Jake Washington. Flawless plan!
(on a side note - I assume the "younger vampire" clause on Gran Madre
wouldn't affect any vampires if Jake has the Grand Madre)
-Matt H.
Johannes Walch
> I know it's sour grapes, but I think Tupdogs were already powerful
> enough that they didn't need the tech to bypass almost every remaining
> defense against them so efficiently. !Ventrue are looking better and
> better because of their damage prevention. I seems like there are now
> two kinds of VTES players: those who own Tupdogs and those who don't.
The real issue here is: Tupdogs are broken. The new cards are just right
for all the other Gargoyles and you can make viable decks with them.
Tupdogs were already too powerful in a silver bullet way and now they
are even more. Sad.
Frederick Scott
news:51298972-c77f-414e...@a30g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
I thought every new Gargoyle and Visceratika card in HttB should have
included a "CANNOT BE PLAYED BY TUPDOGS" clause. How did he miss that?!?
Fred
Frederick Scott
news:hur2ji$gne$1...@news01.versatel.de...
Agreed. In fact, I think perhaps Tupdogs need some kind of errata -
although I couldn't tell you what errata would be reasonable to keep
them playable without making such *#@(! overrun combat animals.
Fred
Wedge
> "Johannes Walch" <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote in message
Tension in the Ranks and/or Scourge of the Enochians pretty much ends
their game.
Matt
brandonsantacruz
Scourge of the Enochians, that's so corner case!
Broooookkkeeeennnnn ;P
Brandon
brandonsantacruz
bro!" The card is so good, play it in every non-weenie deck where you
are worried about Tup Dogs(or other 1-2 caps).
Brandon
Frederick Scott
news:6f196ad2-0dfe-4509...@32g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
> their game.
Well, Tension can be removed but that's beside the point. I actually _don't_
like solutions like those for overpowered archetypes because it makes games
devolve into, "Is there a person with X card at the table?" (And, "Does he
actually draw it?" - because if it were me, I wouldn't draw it...) And if
the Tupdog-killer card _is_ played and kept on the table, then the Tupdoggy's
predator gets an easy oust, which doesn't make for a good game either.
I suppose the question, with respect to the suggestion that Tupdogs should
receive errata, is whether either of those two cards are played often enough
to make up for how easy it is to win with a well-built, well-played Tupdog
deck when they're not present. I don't claim to know the answer to that for
certain but I suspect it's "no".
Fred
Kushiel
> I suppose the question, with respect to the suggestion that Tupdogs should
> receive errata, is whether either of those two cards are played often enough
> to make up for how easy it is to win with a well-built, well-played Tupdog
> deck when they're not present.
I'm having trouble parsing the phrase "how easy it is to win with..."
Are you referring to judging the difficulty of winning with such
decks, or saying that it's easy to win with such decks?
John Eno
Darby Keeney
> As one of the people that said "I didn't know they could do that", I
> can't say I was very happy with Darby's deck.
You weren't the only one saying that Aaron. I had to show people
several cards over the course of that 3 round tournament.
> I'm glad Darby had fun, because I'm pretty sure he was the only one at the table I was at.
I know how you feel, but it's part of the game. A high-density rush
deck at a table without opposing combat decks is likely to have a
significant impact on its predator and prey.
In the 4th tournament, I sat next to Robert's weenie [pot] rush decks
in both my games. As I didn't draw any combat defense early, I pretty
much had little-to-no hope, exactly like your game here (but in
duplicate.) To make matters worse, Robert got an additional 6 pool at
a critical juncture courtesy of a back-bleeding grandprey. But it is
part of the way the game goes.
I'm trying to find a way to say this without sounding condescending,
but it's hard with the written word. Here goes.
This phenomenon of trumpiness is intrinsic to competitive V:tES. Most
of one's game is dictated by the interaction of one's deck with those
on your left and right. A less important, but still relevant factor
is one's grandpredator's skill level, deck choice and play decisions
in-game.
Only if these situations are favorable does one's own error-free play,
optimal deck ratios or the intrinsic random elements of card
distribution really matter.
In simpler terms, it is easy to get trumped ("metagamed"). Sometimes,
its only for a turn or two, but it is enough to wreck a game. If it's
a transient thing, it can be blamed on "bad luck" or "card flow" -
people then lament over lunch and move on. When it occurs due to a
persistent archetype matchup, then its too easy to cry foul and
describe cards as broken.
They might have been - at that moment in time. But at another moment,
that dominant deck might be trumped be something else in the game.
> The only way to deal with the Tupdog's combat now is heavy damage prevention.
So not true.
- Any productive rush on the slaves' master vampire renders them
useless until another !Tremere is in play. Linchpin, which no one was
able to pull in that tournament.
- Blocking their initial action prevents multiaction, which can lead
to cardflow issues. I had this problem in the only other time I had
played this deck (round 1 of a multi-deck tournament). I made a few
adjustments to minimize this issue, but it still exists.
- Blocking the !Tremere and forcing a slave clause changes the
dynamics of the combat enviroment. When you realize that you're
going to be in combat with the dogs somehow, this lets you choose when
and with which minion. It also eliminates an untap option.
- Any permanent prevention severely limits their impact, requiring
specific in-hand combat to even attempt a productive rush. I had to
carefully stack a hand to get in combat with Jeff's Great Beast, not
once, but three different times - and that was after using Ashur's to
enrich my deck with key cards to even consider moving at him
- Weenie decks seated near them turn the Tupdogs into an unsupportable
pool drain as they try to play whack-a-mole
- Several tournamet-worthy cards completely shut down the deck
archetype (see the remainder of the thread, but Tension in the Ranks
is clearly a problem until it is removed).
Are Tupdogs good? Yes. Are they too good for 1-cap vampires? Heck
yes.
Are there innate advantages to expendable rusher. Duh. This is their
real strength
Do the new cards plug holes in their combat package. Yes, that's why
I built this deck.
Are they a silver bullet combat archetype? No. There are a LOT of
holes in the deck function.
I think of them like the Imbued. In the right environment, they are a
huge threat. When they're shut down by someone with the right tools,
they're pretty much toast.
D.
Darby Keeney
There are more +1 stealth actions than just the 5 Dive Bombs (as many
as 9 more with only 8 As The Crow not counting Ashur recursion).
And yes, barring specific in-play situations (e.g., I need to kill
THAT minion RIGHT NOW or prevalent intercept to address), one
generally wishes to run the +1 stealth actions first, untap to access
the slave clause and run the 0-stealth rush as the final actions of
the turn.
D.
Frederick Scott
> news:e2613f80-2f40-4984...@e34g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 9:27 pm, Aaron Clark <aamacl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The only way to deal with the Tupdog's combat now is heavy damage prevention.
>
> So not true.
> - Any productive rush on the slaves' master vampire renders them
> useless until another !Tremere is in play. Linchpin, which no one was
> able to pull in that tournament.
Have you ever had difficulty with this? The problem is, one has to have
a rusher out of torpor long enough to put the master down and keep it
down and/or put any subsequent masters down.
I don't know what the effacivity of other kinds of combat vampires are
against Tupdogs but I'm guessing all but the most hyper-fighty ones
are very low. After you've got strength up and thrown an Immortal
Grapple, there's not much left to an oppenent outside of Fortitude.
Even aggropoke seems to have real problems against a Tupdog rush.
> - Blocking their initial action prevents multiaction, which can lead
> to cardflow issues. I had this problem in the only other time I had
> played this deck (round 1 of a multi-deck tournament). I made a few
> adjustments to minimize this issue, but it still exists.
Never having played the deck, it's hard to see how true this is but
all rush combat decks will have problems with cardflow if their actions
are curtailed. That doesn't strike me as something you'd point at and
say it's a glaring weakness of _this_ particular deck.
> - Blocking the !Tremere and forcing a slave clause changes the
> dynamics of the combat enviroment. When you realize that you're
> going to be in combat with the dogs somehow, this lets you choose when
> and with which minion. It also eliminates an untap option.
Huh? That's why you would choose to take actions with the Tupdogs first
if it suited your needs and only leave Tupdogs untapped to slave combat
blocks on the masters if it better suited your needs. It looks like you
have all the options, not the blocker. This doesn't seem so much like
a "weakness" to me as much as, "Gee, the Tupdogs can't bake a cherry
pie, too!"
> - Any permanent prevention severely limits their impact, requiring
> specific in-hand combat to even attempt a productive rush. I had to
> carefully stack a hand to get in combat with Jeff's Great Beast, not
> once, but three different times - and that was after using Ashur's to
> enrich my deck with key cards to even consider moving at him
Sure. But you did what you needed to, in the end. I'd feel better that
this was a real weakness if it, you know, actually beat you.
> - Weenie decks seated near them turn the Tupdogs into an unsupportable
> pool drain as they try to play whack-a-mole
Perhaps somewhat true. Weenie decks still trump a number of things, although
their attraction has clearly been whittled down over the years.
> - Several tournamet-worthy cards completely shut down the deck
> archetype (see the remainder of the thread, but Tension in the Ranks
> is clearly a problem until it is removed).
Sure. For what it's worth.
> Are Tupdogs good? Yes. Are they too good for 1-cap vampires? Heck
> yes.
> Are there innate advantages to expendable rusher. Duh. This is their
> real strength
> Do the new cards plug holes in their combat package. Yes, that's why
> I built this deck.
> Are they a silver bullet combat archetype? No. There are a LOT of
> holes in the deck function.
I'm not seeing many real holes, overall.
> I think of them like the Imbued. In the right environment, they are a
> huge threat. When they're shut down by someone with the right tools,
> they're pretty much toast.
I think of them like Imbued, too. But I'd restate "right environment" as
"many environments". The things that seem to kill them are too narrow, IMHO.
Since the bannings of Edge Explosion and Memories of Mortality, my
complaints about Imbued have shifted from them being too easy to win with
(although they're still quite powerful, if used correctly) to simply being
too hard to oust so making it really bad luck to draw one as your prey for
most kinds of decks. Tupdogs seem to still have a lot of ousting potential.
Maybe I'll build your deck and play it and see if I can figure out where
there are real holes.
Fred
Johannes Walch
> "Darby Keeney" <darby....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:e2613f80-2f40-4984...@e34g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 9, 9:27 pm, Aaron Clark <aamacl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The only way to deal with the Tupdog's combat now is heavy damage prevention.
>> So not true.
>> - Any productive rush on the slaves' master vampire renders them
>> useless until another !Tremere is in play. Linchpin, which no one was
>> able to pull in that tournament.
>
> Have you ever had difficulty with this? The problem is, one has to have
> a rusher out of torpor long enough to put the master down and keep it
> down and/or put any subsequent masters down.
>
> I don't know what the effacivity of other kinds of combat vampires are
> against Tupdogs but I'm guessing all but the most hyper-fighty ones
> are very low. After you've got strength up and thrown an Immortal
> Grapple, there's not much left to an oppenent outside of Fortitude.
> Even aggropoke seems to have real problems against a Tupdog rush.
Problem is: Tupdogs are extremely fast. If they dont´t have a bad crypt
jam they can rush every single of your vamps before you can even take an
action or at least block your rushes if they are not at stealth. And
let´s face it with a weenie rush which could possibly attack the
!Tremere before Tupdogs can come you don´t rush at stealth. So you are
loosing a vamp in each combat. He is loosing the vamp too, but Tupdogs
would go away anyway. So taking out the !Tremere is not a viable option
for Predator or Prey. It can work if someone crosstable realizes the
threat and takes action. But then the Predator of the Tupdog takes an
easy VP. Tupdogs either completely wreck other players games or they get
ousted very quickly. Villein has been created to mitigate the problems
of big vampires and it works very well against pool-burning weenie
strategies, you have a chance of surviving the initial onslaught and
turn the game in your favor. With an ultra-fast weenie rush like Tupdog
you have troubles, because unless you have a very good hand with 3-4
Obedience in the beginning most likely you are toast. And Villein won´t
work since your vampires get stolen.
Darby Keeney
> Maybe I'll build your deck and play it and see if I can figure out where
> there are real holes.
>
> Fred
This is what I recommend for any deck archetype you find troublesome.
Play it to learn the lynchpins and idiosyncracies.
Then beat it by pulling the lynchpins when you see it.
D.
p.s. When you've built and played the deck, you'll see that what I've
said is accurate. I told you where the "real holes" are (different
holes than the Graverobbing version), you simply chose to not agree
despite not having run this deck.
Rhavas
> Political Action [2]
> 1x Ancient Influence *//eradicate your prey and call as a "spare"
> Tupdog action
> 1x Reins of Power *//eradicate your predator and call as a "spare"
> Tupdog action
How often did you get these political actions to work? I can
understand if your prey and predator have no vamps, and maybe you have
the edge, but I would think there would be absolutely no support from
the rest of the table. I can see them as nice late-game cards, where
the table has been whittled down, but the inability to use them
reliably seems to outweigh including them. I guess the Ashurs
diminish the opportunity costs of them. They are definitely a neat
trick.
Balancing going upstream also seems like it might be tough, which is
why I am surprised not to see any Deflections in here. If you use
your predator as offense rather than smash him, I would think it would
mean less of an easy road for your grand-predator.
I am also curious about the Thin-Blooded Seer. Did the intelligence
it provided prove useful? The cost of the blood off the Tupdog
doesn't seem worth it. Something like Esbat or Scrounging would seem
to be a nice addition/replacement for a "spare" +1 stealth action for
the Tupdogs to take.
Results speak for themselves, as does your history as a deck builder.
I would be interested to hear your take on these points however (thus
the post).
Darby Keeney
> > Political Action [2]
> > 1x Ancient Influence *//eradicate your prey and call as a "spare"
> > Tupdog action
> > 1x Reins of Power *//eradicate your predator and call as a "spare"
> > Tupdog action
>
> How often did you get these political actions to work?
Every time I called them, completely free of pre-action negotiation.
Remember that this tournament was 3x 4-player tables and no one seemed
to be running concentrated vote decks. So the situation was
simplified.
But still, most of the time at 5player tables, big vampires crosstable
WANT these votes to pass even when the Tupdogs call them. These votes
are free bloat and offense, and people generally refrain from
upsetting a Tupdog's Methuselah - such players tend to ignore "ally
positioning" when angry.
Assume that your predator and prey have no titled vampires and likely
no large vampires at all. Its a reasonable assumption, given what
this deck is supposed to do to such vampires ::grin::: Further
assume that there are still 5 players in the game. We (the Tupdogs)
have no votes, but have the Edge. We'll generate 2 votes. (This is
the worst case, assuming we didn't Graverob a voter somewhere during
the game).
Our "table allies" now want Ancient Influence to pass: Our grandprey
sees his predator (our prey) getting futher neutered, he knows that
our updog deck doesn't bleed heavily (deferring concerns about it) and
he is likely gaining pool if he has a big voter
Our grandpredator sees his prey getting hammered by the Ancient
Influence and is probably gaining pool if he has a voter. His
predator may be gaining pool, but this vote is still free bloat and
offense, he almost has to vote for it.
Only if our grandprey is a voter and doesn't want our grandprey
gaining pool is it really a problem. This problem can generally be
allieviated by a pre-vote rush, if we really want the AI to pass.
Its the other way around for Reins of Power. Our grandprey is
gaining pool for sure, he loves it pretty much all the time -
especially if he is pinging his prey (our grandpredator) in the
process.
Our grandpredator is damaging his prey (our predator), so he probably
likes it, unless he is getting hammered in the process. If he is
looking ahead, he might not like you gaining 6 pool, but free offense
and bloat is probably worth it.
All of this doesn't even count the signficant risk a player
immediately assumes when disagreeing with the Tupdogs while
corsstable. I'm even willing to sell a rush for the votes to pass one
of these as an added incentive (this typically gets LOTS of people
willing to vote with me).
> Balancing going upstream also seems like it might be tough, which
is
> why I am surprised not to see any Deflections in here. If you use
> your predator as offense rather than smash him, I would think it would
> mean less of an easy road for your grand-predator.
No thanks. I can't count on drawing a deflection at need. If I draw
2 of them in the midst of a 3-tupdog turn, they are dead cards in a
situation where I need to churn cards.
I can, however, count on generating good combat routinely, so I should
use it. Therefore, my pool-management goal is to crush any serious
threat seated to my right.
So in my mind, there is no balance issue, any serious threat simply
must be ruthlessly eradicated. Sorry predator, you have to go if you
have [PRE] or [DOM] or [DEM]. If that player then self-ousts, so
what? I have plenty of rushers for a now smaller table. And because
this is a combat-focused deck, I NEED the table to collapse, hopefully
all the way to a 3 player.
> I am also curious about the Thin-Blooded Seer. Did the intelligence
> it provided prove useful? The cost of the blood off the Tupdog
> doesn't seem worth it.
I don't know, I never tapped them for anything other than bleed.
This is the last action a Tupdog takes, after a rush/untap and
(unused) slave clause. The blood is irrelevant, the Dog will blow up
anyway. In the worst case, I Heidleburg blood onto the Tupdog after
the action if, it needed to be an early action in the turn.
Basically, instead of bleeding for 1 with an idle end-of-turn tupdog,
I get a permanent late game bleeder
> Something like Esbat or Scrounging would seem
> to be a nice addition/replacement for a "spare" +1 stealth action for
> the Tupdogs to take.
I suspect that it one were to include these, more As the Crow would be
needed and I'm reluctant to implement such a change. As it is
currently designed, not every Tupdog takes 2 actions (pretty close
though) - but there is seldom an idle Tupdog after an As the Crow (I
think I bled with a Tupdog, ummmm, once?). So scrounging seems a
little over-the-top (though I love the card).
Ashur's Tablets turn into subtlely effectively library management in
the late game (again, I really need to get that 6th cope in the deck),
so I get some of that type of effect already (and I'm recycling the
Dreams, too).
I could, however, see a Heart of Nizchetus on a !Tremere to manage
some of the Master cardflow in the untap phase. This is probably the
most useful addition discussed in the thread so far.
> Results speak for themselves, as does your history as a deck builder.
Very kind of you, thanks much :)
D.
Blooded Sand
Deck killers against this deck:
Outside the Hourglass
Gran Madre de Dio, Italy
Tension in the ranks.
Fortitude
Anesthetic Touch
Obedience
Really fast SB.
suoli
> On Jun 11, 4:52 pm, Darby Keeney <darby.kee...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 10, 5:17 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
>
> > > Maybe I'll build your deck and play it and see if I can figure out where
> > > there are real holes.
>
> > > Fred
>
> > This is what I recommend for any deck archetype you find troublesome.
>
> > Play it to learn the lynchpins and idiosyncracies.
> > Then beat it by pulling the lynchpins when you see it.
>
> > D.
>
> > p.s. When you've built and played the deck, you'll see that what I've
> > said is accurate. I told you where the "real holes" are (different
> > holes than the Graverobbing version), you simply chose to not agree
> > despite not having run this deck.
>
> Deck killers against this deck:
> Outside the Hourglass
Stonestrength prevents 2.
> Gran Madre de Dio, Italy
Yeah, seriously risky not to run one for contesting.
> Tension in the ranks.
> Fortitude
Against 22 press sources? Or did you mean Fortitude-weenie?
> Anesthetic Touch
> Obedience
These two will only delay the inevitable.
> Really fast SB.
Only when there's:
- no !Tremere in the crypt for the first 3 turns
- only !Tremere in the starting crypt
- 13 master cards on top of the deck or
- a serious lapse of judgment on the part of the Tupdog player.
Otherwise the bleeders will just go down before they can act.
The *real* deck killers are the Imbued. All this deck can do against
them is throw bricks.
ira...@gmail.com
> Powerbase: Los Angeles #1
> Strategicon - GAMEX 2010
> Los Angeles, California
> May 29, 2010
> 12 players
> 2R + F
>
> Darby Keeney's Tournament Winning Deckhttp://groups.google.com/group/vtesinla/browse_frm/thread/e1774094e2d...
>
> Deck Name : [2010 TW] The World's Biggest Small Multirushers
> Author : Darby Keeney
>
> Comments: Many thanks to Fred Scott for lending me 2 Tupdogs for this
> tournament. Generally, I have found a 2.5:1 Tupdog-to-!Tremere ratio
> to work out pretty well, though a long string of Dogs at the top pf
> one's crypt is frustrating.
>
> The objective for this deck is to get additional mileage from the
> Tupdogs...decreasing their effective cost from 1 pool per action to
> 0.5 pool per action and further leveraging both the rush and the slave
> option (rush first, untap, available for slave clause, take an action
> of the slave clause is not needed).
>
> The deck is supposed to carry 1 more Ashur Tablet, but I seem to own
> only 5 at this time. 4, 6 or 7 seem like the right numbers to me,
> depending on your risk tolerance and recycling needs.
>
> Synergies:
> Carver's + Dragonbound and Carver's + Vessel are pretty clear.
> Carver's + Raw Recruit is an indefinate hold on a Recruit target (that
> could not be Graverobbed). Carver's not affecting Tupdogs is a bonus.
Cool deck, Darby!
I'm curious about the interaction between Raw Recruit, Carver's, and a
burned Tupdog.
If you Raw Recruit a weenie, I believe that weenie stops generating
blood for Carver's, since the weenie is out of play. I think that's
obvious, but I mention it due to your statement, "Carver's + Raw
Recruit". It seems like it's really just "Raw Recruit"?
If you Raw Recruit anyone with a Tupdog, and then that Tupdog leaves
play, can the Raw Recruit be triggered later? I think probably yes,
but I'm not sure because of the text "this Gargoyle" on the Raw
Recruit.
LSJ?
Thanks,
Ira
Raw Recruit
Action
Gargoyle
+1 stealth action. Requires a slave.
(D) Put this card in play and move a vampire in torpor to this card,
out of play. A vampire you control to whom this Gargoyle is a slave
may remove that vampire from the game as a +1 stealth action to turn
this card into a Gargoyle with the same capacity and Fortitude [for] ,
Potence [pot] , Visceratika [vis] and flight [FLIGHT] , enslaved to
the acting vampire's clan.
Carver's Meat Packing and Storage
Master
[1 Pool]
Master. unique location.
When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage
counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be
diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X
blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is
the number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood
to burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all
hostage counters if this card leaves play.
Darby Keeney
> I'm curious about the interaction between Raw Recruit, Carver's, and a
> burned Tupdog.
My point was obscure and poorly communicated.
Tuppers whack a weenie with Carver's in play. While it's in torpor, I
use it to add blood to a Vesseled minion.
That weenie is also pretty much stuck - not gonna be diablerized or
rescued unless someone burns 2 blood for it (which I've seen only
once) then rescues it (2 more blood). It also can't be Graverobbed,
as that moves it to the ready region and Carver's prohibits that.
But lo and behold, it can be Raw Recruited, which removes it from
play.
So I tend to think of Carver's as a Storage Annex for my future Raw
Recruits :)
Robert Scythe
> > Gran Madre de Dio, Italy
>
> Yeah, seriously risky not to run one for contesting.
This card is even easier to deal with then some of the other
suggestions here. Tupdog hunts, As The Crow, now where were we? Or
Heidelberg a blood over, now where were we? Or Carver's blood onto a
ready Tupdog, now where were we? Seriously NOT much of an obstacle
since the deck is already running these cards.
suoli
> On Jun 11, 3:48 pm, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Gran Madre de Dio, Italy
>
> > Yeah, seriously risky not to run one for contesting.
>
> This card is even easier to deal with then some of the other
> suggestions here. Tupdog hunts, As The Crow, now where were we? Or
> Heidelberg a blood over, now where were we? Or Carver's blood onto a
> ready Tupdog, now where were we?
Were we in Eastern relying on transients to keep more than one Tupdog
acting each turnington? That's coping at best. And Gran Madre does
hose Nocturns with Unmasking.
Robert Scythe
> On 12 kesä, 02:21, Robert Scythe <tbel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 11, 3:48 pm, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Gran Madre de Dio, Italy
>
> > > Yeah, seriously risky not to run one for contesting.
>
> > This card is even easier to deal with then some of the other
> > suggestions here. Tupdog hunts, As The Crow, now where were we? Or
> > Heidelberg a blood over, now where were we? Or Carver's blood onto a
> > ready Tupdog, now where were we?
>
> Were we in Eastern relying on transients to keep more than one Tupdog
> acting each turnington? That's coping at best.
Oh, I'm sorry, I figured common sense would dictate rushing the vamp
with the Gran Madre and getting rid of it. But, apparently, you think
I'm trying to find a way to play and just leave it there!??!
suoli
> Oh, I'm sorry, I figured common sense would dictate rushing the vamp
> with the Gran Madre and getting rid of it. But, apparently, you think
> I'm trying to find a way to play and just leave it there!??!
All I'm thinking right now is that you're getting agitated. So long
and have a nice weekend.
Robert Scythe
Nope, just 'coping at best'. I stated that it wasn't much of an
obstacle not that it should be ignored.
>So long
> and have a nice weekend.
I will! It started all ready!
Darby Keeney
> Oh, I'm sorry, I figured common sense would dictate rushing the vamp
> with the Gran Madre and getting rid of it. But, apparently, you think
> I'm trying to find a way to play and just leave it there!??!
Me? Rush a minion just cause it has a piece of equipment that reduces
the effectiveness of my deck's primary objective.
Surely not.
Darby.
p.s. My weekend has also started, as has my alcholo-induced sarcasm.
Frederick Scott
> On Jun 11, 12:50 pm, Rhavas <anthony.lun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Political Action [2]
> > > 1x Ancient Influence *//eradicate your prey and call as a "spare"
> > > Tupdog action
> > > 1x Reins of Power *//eradicate your predator and call as a "spare"
> > > Tupdog action
> >
> > How often did you get these political actions to work?
>
> Every time I called them, completely free of pre-action negotiation.
> Remember that this tournament was 3x 4-player tables and no one seemed
> to be running concentrated vote decks. So the situation was
> simplified.
I would attest that every time I saw Darby call these votes, they seemed
useful to his purpose. Or at worst neutral. Considering they're votes
that have to potential to get ousts or save yourself from ousts or both,
and considering we're talking about two cards in an entire deck, I think
they were _well_ worth including.
Don't forget, this is an environment in which the Tupdog player can often
cause other vampires to be in torpor at the time he wishes to call the
vote(s). I think Darby's discussion of cross-table players choosing to
acquiescence to them is really almost a distraction to understanding
their utility. This is because I don't really care that much how a deck
wins when its opponents make mistakes (or at best highly convenient choices
for its position). I like understanding how decks win in spite a relatively
large amount of competant table hate - and I got the impression this deck
can do just that. Given some well-chosen "editing" of the group of ready
vampires in play at any given time, these votes are probably surprisingly
easy to pass one way or another - even if the guys across the table see
the ultimately threat.
Fred
Darby Keeney
> "Darby Keeney" <darby.kee...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:88214ef1-fe2c-42e9...@e34g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jun 11, 12:50 pm, Rhavas <anthony.lun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Political Action [2]
> > > > 1x Ancient Influence *//eradicate your prey and call as a "spare"
> > > > Tupdog action
> > > > 1x Reins of Power *//eradicate your predator and call as a "spare"
> > > > Tupdog action
>
> > > How often did you get these political actions to work?
>
> > Every time I called them, completely free of pre-action negotiation.
> > Remember that this tournament was 3x 4-player tables and no one seemed
> > to be running concentrated vote decks. So the situation was
> > simplified.
>
> I would attest that every time I saw Darby call these votes, they seemed
> useful to his purpose. Or at worst neutral. Considering they're votes
> that have to potential to get ousts or save yourself from ousts or both,
> and considering we're talking about two cards in an entire deck, I think
> they were _well_ worth including.
I recall Fred (my predator) saying something complementary about my
decks seeming to have (sneaky) resilience, right about when my pool
total got dangerously low. It was thinking, thats nice, but I may be
#@$&*@%ed right about now, and unable to get more Tupdogs to actually
play my game.
That turn, I rushed one of his vampires, torpored it, and drew Reins
during the combat. Of course, I immediately dunked another of his
vampires, untapped the Tupdog and called Reins of Power to gain 6
pool.
I financed 6 more Tupdogs and have no ready predator's minions. Oh,
that's what he was talking about.......
>...Given some well-chosen "editing" of the group of ready
> vampires in play at any given time, these votes are probably surprisingly
> easy to pass one way or another - even if the guys across the table see
> the ultimately threat.
That's true. Largely unnecessary, given that the votes generally pass
themselves for the reasons I gave. I dont want to crosstable rush in
a 5player game, but it is an option if needed to gain pool and stay
alive.