[Spork] Latest Updates
Derek Ray
been able to steal a little bit of time. NAO is now running 0.6.2 of
Sporkhack again, after the dgamelaunch update, and the beta server is
still chugging along nicely, with over 18,500 games played as of today
(and 155 ascensions!).
There have been a few major changes recently which should go further
towards adding both to the randomness of the game, and encourage people
to "use what they find", rather than lean their thumb on the scale to
guarantee the same thing every time. At the same time, some other
things have been opened up; the most obvious of this being the
possibility of any race being any role (though some alignment
restrictions still apply), and the new spell-school staves to assist in
casting by non-Wizards.
Enjoy!
Changelog since last update follows...
11/23:
DR: Gremlins will only steal partial resistances if obtained via eating
DR: Intrinsics gained via race or level will properly give message if
player has partial already at the time they gain it via race/level
DR: Remove magic markers from starting equipment and prevent random
generation of same.
DR: Juggle tool probabilities; increase chances of more 'rare' equipment
like saddles/instruments
PK: Add possibility of "trap rooms" as new special room
DR: Nazgul screams now only affect you if you're within range.
11/22:
PK: Fix double-throne bug, some minor tweaks
DR: Add "while helpless" patch
PK: Allow more than one special room per level
DR: Non-mindless monsters will be a bit more observant about traps now
DR: Update Windows binaries
11/2:
DR: Make sure dwarven archaeologists don't start with two pickaxes
10/31:
DR: Race/role combos opened up significantly: all roles can now be all races.
Some race and role possible alignments altered slightly to make sure
each has at least one option available.
DR: Special spell changes: Valkyrie's is now 'repair armor', Barbarian's is
now 'cause fear'; hopefully this will bring them a little closer to
being castable.
DR: Dwarves now have a chance of starting with a pickaxe.
DR: Allow fleeing covetous monsters to heal faster so they quit jumping
all over the place and return to battle eventually
DR: Fix vanilla bug: SC343-19
DR: Give some oomph to the Riders' HP and level so they're not so crunchy
DR: Increase chances of getting golem while polypiling
10/25:
DR: Steal spell-school staves from Crawl; staff of a particular school provides
large casting bonus for spells from that school
DR: No longer necessary to wield/wear Amulet of Yendor to play hot-and-cold
game on Planes
DR: Tone down AC bonus for higher level monsters slightly
10/22:
DR: Add new object, "brazier" -- permanent-light floor lamp. Place one of said
object on vibrating square at level creation.
PK: Fix several more 64-bit related bugs (sanctum crash on creation + others)
DR: Add downstairs to Castle level and link them up properly (removes need to
avoid filling/locking trapdoors, which would seem logical to a new player)
10/19:
PK: Fix 'stack pop' bug related to some special levels
10/12:
DR: Artifact-naming bug fixed.
DR: Fix eaten-intrinsic messages to better reflect "partial" status
10/8:
DR: Random wands of wishing removed from the game. Magic lamps, djinni, water demons,
and thrones left untouched. Castle wand also left intact.
--
Derek
Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
Link
Astral way too easy in vanilla nethack.
Derek Ray
> Do wands of teleportation still work 100% of the time? They make
> Astral way too easy in vanilla nethack.
They still do, yes. However, you may find that there are a lot more
things on Astral that you'd like to teleport away than you have wands or
charges available.
Patric Mueller
>
> DR: Remove magic markers from starting equipment and prevent random
> generation of same.
So no random MM anymore. They are only available through wishing?
> DR: Nazgul screams now only affect you if you're within range.
Nevertheless earplugs would be a cool new tool. ;-)
> DR: Make sure dwarven archaeologists don't start with two pickaxes
Bummer. Twoweaponing with pick-axes could have been a new conduct.
Bye
Patric
--
NetHack Poll 2009: http://nethack-de.sf.net/poll.html
UnNetHack: http://apps.sf.net/trac/unnethack/
Derek Ray
> Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org> wrote:
>>
>> DR: Remove magic markers from starting equipment and prevent random
>> generation of same.
>
> So no random MM anymore. They are only available through wishing?
Correct. This also prevents polypiling magic tools into MM.
Before the collective mob asks "why", one of the biggest contributors to
"all characters looking identical" in vanilla is that it doesn't cost
anything significant to make them all look identical; there are a
plethora of wishes available, markers are easy to come by, and so many
things are provided for you "guaranteed" in some fashion that your
Castle wand can go for as many markers as you need to kit up precisely
in the manner you like.
You can still use the Castle wand for markers, of course -- but you may
find many other things that you're inclined to wish for now, especially
with random wands on the floor no longer appearing to basically write
off the early- to mid-game as "completed, just walking the levels now".
>> DR: Nazgul screams now only affect you if you're within range.
> Nevertheless earplugs would be a cool new tool. ;-)
That's what YDSM is for. ;)
>> DR: Make sure dwarven archaeologists don't start with two pickaxes
> Bummer. Twoweaponing with pick-axes could have been a new conduct.
I'm not so sure many conducts are going to survive long into Spork.
Some of them are rapidly becoming beyond practical to attempt; the
obvious (and easier) ones like "genoless" and "wishless" are likely
stil doable, but the harder ones such as "pacifist" are going to be much
trickier -- especially with it being harder to preserve pets, and Charm
Monster not being accessible at a 'broken' level anymore.
Which is fine, because half the conducts are flagrant bolt-ons in the
first place.
Ray
> On 2009-11-24, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org> wrote:
>>> DR: Remove magic markers from starting equipment and prevent random
>>> generation of same.
>> So no random MM anymore. They are only available through wishing?
> Correct. This also prevents polypiling magic tools into MM.
So now there's a TAUPWNSOHA* in your game. People can wish for
it but without reading spoilers how would they find out that they
possibly can? If there's no random generation, I say that the
ability to wish for one is unfair to unspoiled players.
Bear
* Thing An Unspoiled Player Will Never See Or Hear About
Janis Papanagnou
Good point. Nethack usually supports some non-apparent or missing
information in fortunes and Oracle rumors.
Janis
Patric Mueller
> Derek Ray wrote:
>
>> Correct. This also prevents polypiling magic tools into MM.
>
> So now there's a TAUPWNSOHA* in your game. People can wish for
> it but without reading spoilers how would they find out that they
> possibly can? If there's no random generation, I say that the
> ability to wish for one is unfair to unspoiled players.
This would open the possibility for a new shop that offers only rare
magical items.
"Hello Player! Welcome to Giles' Magic Box!" :-)
Derek Ray
> So now there's a TAUPWNSOHA* in your game. People can wish for
> it but without reading spoilers how would they find out that they
> possibly can? If there's no random generation, I say that the
> ability to wish for one is unfair to unspoiled players.
Agreed, and if I were writing this completely from scratch, I would be
concerned about it. But Nethack is a game spoiled players play, and
nobody is going to try a variant who isn't familiar with Nethack itself.
I would go so far as to say that it is my estimation that less than 1%
of all Sporkhack players are unaware of the existence of magic markers.
Eventually I intend to update the Oracle with more relevant information.
But for the moment, that is not high on the priority list because of the
above.
Derek Ray
> Ray <be...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> Derek Ray wrote:
>>> Correct. This also prevents polypiling magic tools into MM.
>>
>> So now there's a TAUPWNSOHA* in your game. People can wish for
>> it but without reading spoilers how would they find out that they
>> possibly can? If there's no random generation, I say that the
>> ability to wish for one is unfair to unspoiled players.
>
> This would open the possibility for a new shop that offers only rare
> magical items.
Or branches that offer a marker as a reward, perhaps.
Link
wrote:
> On 2009-11-24, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org> wrote:
> I'm not so sure many conducts are going to survive long into Spork.
>
> first place.
My problem with some of the conducts is that they seem a bit luck-
based. For example, the ascension posts that include the more-
difficult conducts will often discuss that they found a really good
bones pile, an early wand of wishing, or something else that isn't
normally found in the average game.
For example, I think either "wishless" or "polyless" can be safely
done in just about every game of vanilla Nethack. However, I think
"wishless and polyless" sounds like a combination that needs a bit of
luck in order to pull off safely. It seems like some of my vanilla
games just flat out gives me pure junk the entire game, and I need
either wishes or polymorphing to get myself a good ascension kit.
Derek Ray
> On 2009-11-25, Ray <be...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> So now there's a TAUPWNSOHA* in your game. People can wish for
>> it but without reading spoilers how would they find out that they
>> possibly can? If there's no random generation, I say that the
>> ability to wish for one is unfair to unspoiled players.
>
> Agreed, and if I were writing this completely from scratch, I would be
> concerned about it. But Nethack is a game spoiled players play, and
> nobody is going to try a variant who isn't familiar with Nethack itself.
>
> I would go so far as to say that it is my estimation that less than 1%
> of all Sporkhack players are unaware of the existence of magic markers.
>
> Eventually I intend to update the Oracle with more relevant information.
> But for the moment, that is not high on the priority list because of the
> above.
Interestingly, from rumors.tru:
-- The magic marker is mightier than the sword.
-- Try using your magic marker on wet scrolls.
-- Why do you suppose they call them MAGIC markers?
So it isn't entirely one after all. But the points above still stand.
Derek Ray
>> > Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org> wrote:
>> I'm not so sure many conducts are going to survive long into Spork.
>>
>> Which is fine, because half the conducts are flagrant bolt-ons in the
>> first place.
> My problem with some of the conducts is that they seem a bit luck-
> based. For example, the ascension posts that include the more-
> difficult conducts will often discuss that they found a really good
> bones pile, an early wand of wishing, or something else that isn't
> normally found in the average game.
This is certainly true for speed runs past a certain point, and many of
the other conducts are likely to have that problem as well. If nothing
else, look at Tenaya's recent series of games -- it took him what, 60
tries to get a single many-conduct ascension? Given that vanilla is
basically 99% ascendable (barring ridiculous corner-case stuff), that
tells you right there that the random chance is playing far more of a
role in his games than it normally would.
One particular conduct is almost entirely luck-based; polyselfless.
Unless you play as a Wizard and thus have the guaranteed MR, you have to
rely on finding MR before you reach level 8, or you start running the
risk of polytraps. And you can't even guarantee your pet's survival.
Martin Read
[tabdamage]
I couldn't actually be bothered to read your release notes, because your
use of tabs mangled them too badly :)
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
Derek Ray
> Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org> wrote:
> [tabdamage]
>
> I couldn't actually be bothered to read your release notes, because your
> use of tabs mangled them too badly :)
That's OK. You'll read them on the website anyway.
tenaya
wrote:
> On 2009-11-25, Link <chillyn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My problem with some of the conducts is that they seem a bit luck-
> > based. For example, the ascension posts that include the more-
> > difficult conducts will often discuss that they found a really good
> > bones pile, an early wand of wishing, or something else that isn't
> > normally found in the average game.
I made a point of not using bones-pile loot in my 11-conduct
ascension. No special luck for me, just a thoroughly abused pudding
farm and a hefty dose of startscumming.
>
> This is certainly true for speed runs past a certain point, and many of
> the other conducts are likely to have that problem as well. If nothing
> else, look at Tenaya's recent series of games -- it took him what, 60
recent?
> tries to get a single many-conduct ascension? Given that vanilla is
> basically 99% ascendable (barring ridiculous corner-case stuff), that
> tells you right there that the random chance is playing far more of a
> role in his games than it normally would.
>
At the time I ascended an 11-conduct character I was ascending about
50% of my games.
My losses during that high conduct attempt were mostly skill-based and
due to me not playing well enough given the arbitrary level of
difficulty assigned to the conduct attempt.
Random chance was based on starting with the right set of items: ring
of slow digestion and foo of poly.
Tenaya11 had 1 ascension with 11 conducts, 4 conduct-based quits, 10
deaths, after a total of 226 starts. Once the startscumming is taken
out, 1 in 14 does not sound so much like random chance given that I
was limited to throwing daggers from the very start with no Elbereth,
and there was a rather severe deadline at about 17k turns.
I think my 60 attempts was when I was role-playing a racial orcish
thief, maybe.
Tenaya
Link
> On Nov 25, 9:33 am, Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2009-11-25, Link <chillyn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> At the time I ascended an 11-conduct character I was ascending about
> 50% of my games.
> Random chance was based on starting with the right set of items: ring
> of slow digestion and foo of poly.
I think some conducts are really unimpressive if the player completely
bypasses all the challenge the conduct is supposed to have. For
example, starting the game with a ring of slow digestion makes the
foodless conduct really unimpressive. Yes, it can be a bit
inconvenient that foodless players can't get intrinsics through eating
corpses, but the whole challenge of "not starving to death" isn't
there anymore.
JoaoSantos
> On Nov 25, 9:33 am, Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> > This is certainly true for speed runs past a certain point, and many of
> > the other conducts are likely to have that problem as well. If nothing
> > else, look at Tenaya's recent series of games -- it took him what, 60
>
> recent?
> Tenaya
I recently (couple of months?) did a 10 conduct monk which took me
about 60 tries. Maybe Derek was refering to that game and got mistaken
on the accounts (if so I feel flattered).
In any case, this devnull tournament I did the exact same conducts in
27 tries, with no pudding farm.
I agree that this is an extreme case that I can't pull off with a
decent ascention ratio due to relatively item-poor normal starts.
However, I feel luck (and bones) are being slighly overrated. Both
these 10 conduct games were bones-powered, but shortly after the first
ascension I almost did a slightly more difficult monk (vegan + atheist
instead of foodless+non-atheist) without any bones file. And when I
say almost I mean I did a YASD on the vlad tower surrounded by some
nasties and thinking "oh, I'll just take another hit before quaffing
my B!oFH". Very very stupid.
Luck and bones are slighly overrated because you learn how to deal
with situations differently when you have less resources. Earlier it
was mentioned that polyself is entirely luck dependent whether you
find MR or not before hitting polytrap. Last year I did a
MR-less+polyselfless+someOtherConducts without MR because I used the
few resources I had: namely a =PC.
solidsnail
Derek Ray
> On Nov 27, 10:28 am, tenaya <tenayaten...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 25, 9:33 am, Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> [...]
>> > This is certainly true for speed runs past a certain point, and many of
>> > the other conducts are likely to have that problem as well. If nothing
>> > else, look at Tenaya's recent series of games -- it took him what, 60
>>
>> recent?
> [...]
>> Tenaya
>
> I recently (couple of months?) did a 10 conduct monk which took me
> about 60 tries. Maybe Derek was refering to that game and got mistaken
> on the accounts (if so I feel flattered).
This, yes. Got my conducteers confused; sorry bout that. :)
> In any case, this devnull tournament I did the exact same conducts in
> 27 tries, with no pudding farm.
Yep. Still indicates to me that there is a different factor at work
here; in other words, bad luck is having a more negative effect on you
than it normally would.
Player skill is effectively a constant in this case; it's just that with
so fewer tools to work with, even small instances of bad luck can end up
having large consequences. (Consider, for example, the case of your pet
falling through a trapdoor; not a game-ender at all for a player in a
normal game, but a major emergency for a pacifist).
tenaya
Foodless is more difficult though if you can not eat, change form, or
pray. Although potions can help sustain, there is only a single way
to reset the food clock and intrinsics are even harder to acquire.
Jistan Idiot
I've always wondered how do you do foodless if you cannot eat, change
form, or pray?
Derek Ray
a) Start with a ring of slow digestion and ascend in 20k turns
b) Use amulets of life saving to die and reset your hunger status
c) Drink fruit juice and from fountains
Any combination of the above, though c) is really hard to manage without
a horn of plenty and a PYEC.
RjY
>On 2009-11-27, Jistan Idiot <jista...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've always wondered how do you do foodless if you cannot eat, change
>> form, or pray?
>a) Start with a ring of slow digestion and ascend in 20k turns
As you know - that is to say, for anyone else who missed it (I'm
deliberately evoking the trope here) -
Message-ID: slrnfqoi56...@sdf.lonestar.org
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/a926d4e2ab3946b9
(also mentioned on Wikihack's notable ascensions page)
tenaya
wrote:
> On 2009-11-27, Jistan Idiot <jistanid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 27, 12:38 pm, tenaya <tenayaten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Foodless is more difficult though if you can not eat, change form, or
> >> pray. Although potions can help sustain, there is only a single way
> >> to reset the food clock and intrinsics are even harder to acquire.
> > I've always wondered how do you do foodless if you cannot eat, change
> > form, or pray?
>
> a) Start with a ring of slow digestion and ascend in 20k turns
> b) Use amulets of life saving to die and reset your hunger status
> c) Drink fruit juice and from fountains
>
> Any combination of the above, though c) is really hard to manage without
> a horn of plenty and a PYEC.
>
d) Use polymorph wth polymorph control and select your original race
when prompted. You will "feel like a new orc" and your hunger status
will be reset.