Presta repair?
DirtRoadie
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd?hl=en
Having run into this problem twice within a week ...
Has anyone found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps
reinforcing) a tube which is leaking as a result of a presta valve
starting to separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor
will normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm not
optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more than a
temporary fix.
DR
Michael Press
<fccc334f-1104-4839...@m1g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
If you can acquire a removable presta valve
then you might fix the tube. I throw away
a tube with a bad valve. There are few enough.
If I came across new tubes that failed at the
valve, then I would take them back to the shop.
--
Michael Press
David Scheidt
:To revisit an old but still topical question:
:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd?hl=en
:Having run into this problem twice within a week ...
:Has anyone found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps
:reinforcing) a tube which is leaking as a result of a presta valve
:starting to separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor
New tube, and better pumping technique.
--
It makes me feel good knowing that with extensive training, weight
loss and a large capital expenditure, I can fly further than a
flightless chicken. -- Jay Beattie.
DirtRoadie
>
> :Having run into this problem twice within a week ...
> :Has anyone found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps
> :reinforcing) a tube which is leaking as a result of a presta valve
> :starting to separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor
>
> New tube, and better pumping technique.
No pumping involved in either of my recent encounters with this issue.
Both cases were failures while JRA. One on the road bike of another
rider while riding with a small group, one on my MTB riding solo. The
former was fixed by folding a 700C tube to fit into a 650C tire.
(Rider had no tube, only "instant" patches, had CO2 inflater, had CO2
cartridge, had no _necessary_ presta adapter)
But in any case, regardless of reason for damage to tube/valve stem
interface, can it be repaired?
DR
David Scheidt
Not in my experience. On very expensive tubes (like used on earth
moving equipment) it's reasonably common to glue a new valve stem on
(you get a big patch, with a valve stem in the middle.). In theory,
it should be possible to do the same ting for bike tire tube, but I've
never seen such a thing. You could make one from a tube, but I've
seen remarkably few presta tubes that fail anywhere but at the valve
stem. And I'm way too cheap to cut up a new tube to try and fix an
old one....
--
sig 76
landotter
> To revisit an old but still topical question:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd...
>
> Having run into this problem twice within a week ...
> Has anyone found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps
> reinforcing) a tube which is leaking as a result of a presta valve
> starting to separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor
> will normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
> sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm not
> optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more than a
> temporary fix.
>
> DR
If it's on a mtb, get a Stan's Kit and go tubeless. Then you can
easily replace just the valve on the trail.
DirtRoadie
That is really not an answer to the question - which was whether
anyone had found a feasible way of repairing a presta valve (on any
tube, road or mtb) that had started to separate. In the absence of a
suitable repair method, replacement of the tube is the solution.
Thanks
DR
Jobst Brandt
> To revisit an old but still topical question:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd?hl=en
> Having run into this problem twice within a week... Has anyone
> found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps reinforcing) a
> tube which is leaking as a result of a Presta valve starting to
> separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor will
> normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
> sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm not
> optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more than a
> temporary fix.
I see you are new to this forum because this is an old subject (known
as an FAQ), so you might read about it:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tube-failure.html#valve
Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a hole in a
round Rema patch with the original stem secured therein, and placed as
a patch on the latex tube.
I am amazed how so many people want to take blame for these failures
accusing their method of inflation. These are manufacturing errors
that were widespread for a while... but so many folks volunteered as
being the cause, or accusing others of not inflating their tires with
adequate care. Most of these advisers never rode on thin latex tubed
tubular tires where this failure did not occur... in spite of a
securely fastened knurled jam nut that made inflation with a manual
frame fit pump practical.
Hey, they aren't carbon fiber either!
Jobst Brandt
DirtRoadie
> Someone shy wrote:
> > To revisit an old but still topical question:
>
>
> > Having run into this problem twice within a week... Has anyone
> > found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps reinforcing) a
> > tube which is leaking as a result of a Presta valve starting to
> > separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor will
> > normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
> > sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm not
> > optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more than a
> > temporary fix.
>
> I see you are new to this forum because this is an old subject (known
> as an FAQ), so you might read about it:
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tube-failure.html#valve
Strange, I could have sworn I wrote "to revisit an _old_ but still
topical question" and that I provided a link to a 2002 mention of the
issue here.
I'll try to be clearer next time.
> Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a hole in a
> round Rema patch with the original stem secured therein, and placed as
> a patch on the latex tube.
If the original valve stem is separated in whole or in part from from
the "flange" at its base, I cannot envision how one would manage to
seal a patch around it. That is the essence of the problem.
Yes and it seems that a replacement presta valve with an integrated
patch serving as the base would be practical, though perhaps not cost
effective when compared with a new tube.
From the FAQ
"On close inspection, separated stems show that the rubber peeled away
leaving only a slight black trace on the stem where the leak began."
I really don't care WHAT causes such a failure. It happens. The
question remains - is there any suitable repair method?
DR
Jobst Brandt
>>> To revisit an old but still topical question:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd...
>>> Having run into this problem twice within a week... Has anyone
>>> found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps reinforcing) a
>>> tube which is leaking as a result of a Presta valve starting to
>>> separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor will
>>> normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
>>> sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm
>>> not optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more
>>> than a temporary fix.
>> I see you are new to this forum because this is an old subject
>> (known as an FAQ), so you might read about it:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tube-failure.html#valve
> Strange, I could have sworn I wrote "to revisit an _old_ but still
> topical question" and that I provided a link to a 2002 mention of
> the issue here.
> I'll try to be clearer next time.
Your subsequent questions belie that claim.
>> Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a hole
>> in a round Rema patch with the original stem secured therein, and
>> placed as a patch on the latex tube.
> If the original valve stem is separated in whole or in part from
> from the "flange" at its base, I cannot envision how one would
> manage to seal a patch around it. That is the essence of the
> problem.
The separation of most of these stems is from overheating and burning
the interface between tube rubber and brass valve stem, so the
separation is a nearly clean round hole the diameter of the stem.
These valve stems, vulcanized into butyl tubes have no "flange".
> Yes and it seems that a replacement presta valve with an integrated
> patch serving as the base would be practical, though perhaps not
> cost effective when compared with a new tube.
From that I take it you are slightly impractical and certainly have
not tried the method which has two advantages. It can be done on the
road, and it costs less than a new tube.
> From the FAQ:
# "On close inspection, separated stems show that the rubber peeled
# away leaving only a slight black trace on the stem where the leak
# began."
> I really don't care WHAT causes such a failure. It happens. The
> question remains - is there any suitable repair method?
Understanding the cause is the first step to understanding how to fix
it. Putting on blinders is not a reasonable way of approaching a
problem. You seem to believe that someone else should repair your
leak. I thought you might try it yourself, if you were aware of the
details and their solution.
Jobst Brandt
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Shoe Goo is not going to do it on flexible butyl. There may be some
other product like barge cement that might do the trick. Personally,
I have taken a patch and created a hole in the middle with an exacto
knife, slipped it over the valve and used that with the usual
vulcanizing fluid. It worked for a while, IIRC. I just throw those
tubes away now. -- Jay Beattie.
Jobst Brandt
>>>> To revisit an old but still topical question:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd...
>>>> Having run into this problem twice within a week ... Has anyone
>>>> found a reliable method of repairing (and perhaps reinforcing) a
>>>> tube which is leaking as a result of a Presta valve starting to
>>>> separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor will
>>>> normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
>>>> sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm
>>>> not optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more
>>>> than a temporary fix.
>>> If it's on a MTB, get a Stan's Kit and go tubeless. Then you can
>>> easily replace just the valve on the trail.
>> That is really not an answer to the question - which was whether
>> anyone had found a feasible way of repairing a Presta valve (on any
>> tube, road or MTB) that had started to separate. In the absence of
>> a suitable repair method, replacement of the tube is the solution.
>> Thanks
> Shoe Goo is not going to do it on flexible butyl. There may be some
> other product like barge cement that might do the trick. I have
> taken a patch and created a hole in the middle with an Exacto knife,
> slipped it over the valve and used that with the usual vulcanizing
> fluid. It worked for a while, IIRC. I just throw those tubes away
> now.
It is far easier and reliable to peel the leaky stem out of the tube
(which leaves a round hole the size of a Presta stem) and either
insert a stem from a tubular (with flange and seal nut) or put one in
a Rema patch and attach that to the tube where the stem was removed.
Both methods work reliably and serve many miles.
--
Jobst Brandt
DirtRoadie
OK, then what you are describing can only be accomplished by re-
vulcanizing a stem into the tube. Why were you offering the diversion
of a "rema" patch. How would one utilize such a patch without
"vulcanizing" the valve stem into the patch (or into the tube itself)?
Can this vulcanizing be accomplished with some known adhesive? Many
silicone rubber type materials available at automotive or hardware
stores are even referred to as "RTV."
> > Yes and it seems that a replacement presta valve with an integrated
> > patch serving as the base would be practical, though perhaps not
> > cost effective when compared with a new tube
>
> From that I take it you are slightly impractical and certainly have
> not tried the method which has two advantages. It can be done on the
> road, and it costs less than a new tube.
I was speaking of a potential commercial product which included a
"gluable" patch and was speculating on how its cost would compare with
that of a new tube. You, on the other hand, are speaking of already
having a mechanically attachable valve scavenged from a tubular or
latex tube. I have none of those to work with.
>
> > From the FAQ:
>
> # "On close inspection, separated stems show that the rubber peeled
> # away leaving only a slight black trace on the stem where the leak
> # began."
Wrong. Why do you find it necessary to generalize and assume that
_your_ experience and conclusion is the only experience that exists?
A tube that I have here shows a separation in the rubber, not in the
interface between rubber and brass. The valve stem still has an
undisturbed (thin) ring of solid rubber surrounding its base. The
breach is between that remaining ring of rubber and the rubber which
forms the tube wall. There is NO visible brass.
>
> > I really don't care WHAT causes such a failure. It happens. The
> > question remains - is there any suitable repair method?
>
> Understanding the cause is the first step to understanding how to fix
> it. Putting on blinders is not a reasonable way of approaching a
> problem. You seem to believe that someone else should repair your
> leak. I thought you might try it yourself, if you were aware of the
> details and their solution.
There's a breach in the rubber that I have fully described. It could
be caused by a manufacturing defect; it could be caused by
deterioration due to age; it could be the result of excessive
mechanical stresses. But regardless of the cause, there's a breach
that leaks air.
The frustration of the situation partially comes from tubes being
otherwise readily repairable.
Unlike you, I do not profess to have all the answers. I was merely
asking whether anyone has successfully tackled this minor problem and
might be able to share their experience. You posed a single possible
solution dependent upon having access to something I do not have. You
offered no alternatives, so your solution is rejected. Kindly step
back and let's see whether anyone else has experience they wish to
share.
And if I try something that works I'll let you know.
DR
Tosspot
<snip>
> It is far easier and reliable to peel the leaky stem out of the tube
> (which leaves a round hole the size of a Presta stem) and either
> insert a stem from a tubular (with flange and seal nut) or put one in
> a Rema patch and attach that to the tube where the stem was removed.
> Both methods work reliably and serve many miles.
I never thought of that. Something like this you mean?
http://www.nextdaytyres.com/Tubes/Stans/No-Tubes-Accessories.aspx?ID=13824
Jobst Brandt
> <snip>
http://www.nextdaytyres.com/Tubes/Stans/No-Tubes-Accessories.aspx?ID=13824
That has nothing to do with repairing a separated stem problems. As I
pointed out:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tube-failure.html
That's a description that sums it up so that only those who want to
make it seem impossible will propose "other solutions" that are
unworkable, just as yours is. I don't understand your motivation to
confuse or possibly you didn't look at the "tube-failure" FAQ item.
I can only think that it is a feeling of "Why didn't I think of that,
so I'd best discredit or misinterpret it." That is not what Sheldon
thought and why he put it among his FAQ's.
Jobst Brandt
Chalo
>
> [...]the question - which was whether
> anyone had found a feasible way of repairing a presta valve (on any
> tube, road or mtb) that had started to separate. In the absence of a
> suitable repair method, replacement of the tube is the solution.
I've not found a feasible way to fix such failures. "Feasible" in
this case meaning costing not much more time and money than just
buying a new tube.
Tubes cost $4 for Schrader and $5 for Presta in my shop. That's
almost the same price as when I started buying tubes for myself in
1987. In real terms, the things have gotten a lot cheaper during that
time. Not coincidentally, tube defects resulting in flats are much
more common then I remember from back then.
Chalo
Jay Beattie
Semi OT: I patched 30 tubes over the last two nights -- this is the
first time in I don't know how many years that all my punctured tubes
have been fixed. There is one, though, that did not stay inflated for
the night and will have to be dunked to find the leak. I'm on this
repair jihad in preparation for fall/winter. Just finished installing
some windows and doing paint, plaster and stucco work, too. It's nice
when everything is buttoned up. -- Jay Beattie.
Tosspot
Sorry, misattribution, I thought it was you that suggested
"It is far easier and reliable to peel the leaky stem out of the tube
(which leaves a round hole the size of a Presta stem) and either insert
a stem from a tubular (with flange and seal nut)"
and I wondered (not having ever used tubulars) whether that was the "a
stem from a tubular" that was mentioned. But since you're here and I've
read the article, can you confirm if the link was what was mentioned.
Tosspot
Sorry, misattribution, I thought it was you that suggested
"It is far easier and reliable to peel the leaky stem out of the tube
(which leaves a round hole the size of a Presta stem) and either insert
a stem from a tubular (with flange and seal nut)"
and I wondered (not having ever used tubulars) whether that was the "a
thirty-six
> To revisit an old but still topical question:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138271924eff3cfd...
>
> Having run into this problem twice within a week ...
> Has anyone found a _reliable_ method of repairing (and perhaps
> reinforcing) a tube which is leaking as a result of a presta valve
> starting to separate at its base? Obviously a patch will not work, nor
> will normal patching glue on its own. Stuff like "shoe goo" is pretty
> sturdy in many other applications, but I have not tried it. I'm not
> optimistic that there's anything that can offer anything more than a
> temporary fix.
>
> DR
A big patch and cut a hole in the middle by folding it and using a
pair of nail scissors. I used this twice before deciding skinny tubes
and skinny tyres were not for me. When using good patching technique,
they did seem to last, although other than guessing more than a year
and possibly 8000 miles I couldn't give a lifespan.
thirty-six
> A tube that I have here shows a separation in the rubber, not in the
> interface between rubber and brass. The valve stem still has an
> undisturbed (thin) ring of solid rubber surrounding its base. The
> breach is between that remaining ring of rubber and the rubber which
> forms the tube wall. There is NO visible brass.
Gotcha. I've not personally performed this one but I hear that the
gel superglues will solve this problem half the time.
It is feasible that overheating of the valve due to the use of an
airline would cause the failure and it will happen again with the
repaired valve. Mineral oil from the pump will also deteriorate the
rubber around the stem. If it has been the second cause (the remnants
will be gooey) it is probably best to cut the tube into bands and
start afresh after cleaning out your inflator. Borrowing an inflator
is a no-no because you just dont know.
>
>
>
> There's a breach in the rubber that I have fully described. It could
> be caused by a manufacturing defect; it could be caused by
> deterioration due to age; it could be the result of excessive
> mechanical stresses. But regardless of the cause, there's a breach
> that leaks air.
If there is any gooiness forget about repairing it, it will likely
fail and it's too much hassle.
>
> The frustration of the situation partially comes from tubes being
> otherwise readily repairable.
There are leak sealants for car windscreen rubbers which could be
ideal if the break remains closed.
>
DirtRoadie
30 tubes? Geez, at that point I think I would just pitch the one that
was not holding air. But I admire your tenacity and certainly
understand the economy of scale that comes from performing such
repairs as a mass production process.
DR
DirtRoadie
> On 30 Aug, 23:38, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > A tube that I have here shows a separation in the rubber, not in the
> > interface between rubber and brass. The valve stem still has an
> > undisturbed (thin) ring of solid rubber surrounding its base. The
> > breach is between that remaining ring of rubber and the rubber which
> > forms the tube wall. There is NO visible brass.
>
> Gotcha. I've not personally performed this one but I hear that the
> gel superglues will solve this problem half the time.
I have, in fact, used superglue (I don't recall if it was gel) in
various butyl applications and does adhere quite well. However what
you have heard about success "half the time" is consistent with my
observations that it eventually lets go. That to me is not a sound
repair. In essence it is nearly certain to fail without any outside
intervention, although when that will happen is not predictable. That
form of reliability is marginal compared to an ordinary tube patch
which generally lasts indefinitely.
> [snip]
> > The frustration of the situation partially comes from tubes being
> > otherwise readily repairable.
>
> There are leak sealants for car windscreen rubbers which could be
> ideal if the break remains closed.
It is that type of material that I was hoping somebody might
identify.
Seems to me it must:
(1) have strong adhesion to butyl
(2) Have its own inherent strength when cured so as to be able to
provide a gap-spanning structural skin.
(3) be capable of doing 1 and 2 in a flexible manner.
In applying a standard patch, elements 1 and 2 are accomplish with
separate components - glue and patch.
DR
DirtRoadie
> >> Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a hole
> >> in a round Rema patch with the original stem secured therein, and
> >> placed as a patch on the latex tube.
>[snip]
>
> From that I take it you are slightly impractical and certainly have
> not tried the method which has two advantages. It can be done on the
> road, and it costs less than a new tube.
OK, since you raised the issue of being impractical, I have to ask -
Why, in heaven's name, would you carry your obscure spare presta valve
to conduct this ritual _on the road_ to solve a problem which occurs
infrequently. You could just as easily carry a spare _tube_ which
provides a quick, simple and 100% reliable solution to this particular
problem as well as any other puncture, large or small, which does not
involve damage to the tire itself.
At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
DR
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
OT WARNING: I did this while watching a movie with my son. I swore I
would never get a Blu Ray because I see it as a transitional
technology soon to be eclipsed by something that does not involve
whirling silver discs. Anyway, I ended up with a Blu Ray as a near
freeby with a TV purchase. I decided to waste even more money by
buying a LAN adapter for the wireless function (cheap on eBay). I
have a Netflix account and unlimited free downloads. ITS REALLY
COOL! Pop something in the queue and watch it instantly -- skip mind
numbing TV and patch tubes while watching an olde tyme classic movie.
Save the via-mail movies for family night. -- Jay Beattie.
Jobst Brandt
>>>> Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a hole
>>>> in a round Rema patch with the original stem secured therein, and
>>>> placed as a patch on the latex tube.
>>[snip]
>> From that I take it you are slightly impractical and certainly have
>> not tried the method which has two advantages. It can be done on the
>> road, and it costs less than a new tube.
> OK, since you raised the issue of being impractical, I have to ask -
> Why, in heaven's name, would you carry your obscure spare Presta
> valve to conduct this ritual _on the road_ to solve a problem which
> occurs infrequently. You could just as easily carry a spare _tube_
> which provides a quick, simple and 100% reliable solution to this
> particular problem as well as any other puncture, large or small,
> which does not involve damage to the tire itself.
A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and costs
far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an old dead
tubular tire. I think it natural to carry a patch kit containing a
strip of belt-sander grit, a tube of glue, some patches, a plastic
shaver head (to remove mold seams) and a Presta stem.
The occurrence of stem separations was common a few months ago and
still plagues some riders who were unfortunate to have bought tubes
with this manufacturing error.
> At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
I don't see the basis for your snide comment. Where is the ritual?
Your use of underscores in writing seems more of a ritual to me. Who
are you anyway and why do you hide your name ritualistically?
Jobst Brandt
Ben Pfaff
> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and costs
> far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an old dead
> tubular tire. [...]
What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
DirtRoadie
> As shy person wrote:
> >>>> Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a hole
> >>>> in a round Rema patch with the original stem secured therein, and
> >>>> placed as a patch on the latex tube.
> >>[snip]
> >> From that I take it you are slightly impractical and certainly have
> >> not tried the method which has two advantages. It can be done on the
> >> road, and it costs less than a new tube.
> > OK, since you raised the issue of being impractical, I have to ask -
> > Why, in heaven's name, would you carry your obscure spare Presta
> > valve to conduct this ritual _on the road_ to solve a problem which
> > occurs infrequently. You could just as easily carry a spare _tube_
> > which provides a quick, simple and 100% reliable solution to this
> > particular problem as well as any other puncture, large or small,
> > which does not involve damage to the tire itself.
>
> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and costs
> far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an old dead
> tubular tire. I think it natural to carry a patch kit containing a
> strip of belt-sander grit, a tube of glue, some patches, a plastic
> shaver head (to remove mold seams) and a Presta stem.
A spare tube will solve not only (1) the separated valve problem, but
(2) any other normal puncture. No on-the-road patching necessary. No
need to carry a patch kit as well. Nor the wrench necessary to
install valve.
See
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/290c81c2e5a2b9d8
A clamp-in-place valve stem will ONLY solve the separated stem issue.
And even then is only viable IF one has a clamp-in-place stem and the
neccessary wrench. The stem, contrary to your suggestion, is not a
readily available item.
That you may have a stockpile dating to the last century is of little
consequence to others.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
And I'll save any patching for a session where I can tackle a group
of repairs in a time-effective manner, not to mention not having have
to do any patching in adverse weather or while other riders are
waiting.
I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this century
have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole' chunk of rubber
at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a clamp nut.
> The occurrence of stem separations was common a few months ago and
> still plagues some riders who were unfortunate to have bought tubes
> with this manufacturing error.
A few months ago?
This is the same mantra you began chanting 15 years ago and have been
repeating ever since.
The issue of separating stems is a recognized problem that has been
mentioned a number of times over quite a few years. It's nothing new
in just in the last few months.
Separated valve stems:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/abf41195216ffe4e/16cb641b208c0e18
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/db676a85bf85c95e/d7047ed21ff84f34
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/74d0ed0aaa8e4ae6/8c21007559aaf96a
Recognize any of the posters in those threads?
In any case, nobody yet seems to have come up with any definitive,
reliable and readily available repair method. The general consensus to
date is that such tubes are best discarded.
> > At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
>
> I don't see the basis for your snide comment. Where is the ritual?
I guess that is the nature of ritual - the one who is engaged in it
believes to be "natural" - something other than ritual. OK, just call
it "habit" if you must. In light of the simplicity of carrying as
readily available tube capable of "all purpose" repair, it certainly
appears to me that you are going out of your way to justify carrying a
(smaller) repair presta valve and other paraphenalia in lieu of a
tube.
To paraphrase:
"It doesn't hurt to carry a spare tube unless you are a weight
weenie."
Reference:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
> Your use of underscores in writing seems more of a ritual to me. Who
> are you anyway and why do you hide your name ritualistically?
OK, it's a ritual. I worship the underscore gods, although I *like*
asterisks and LOVE capitalization. And my use of a consistent
identifier here is also entirely ritualistic. Why do you have such an
aversion to pseudonyms or nicknames? Of what concern is it to you or
anyone else what name I use? I assume you are also deeply offended
that "Mark Twain" was not his real name. And I don't know whether ANY
of the names that appear here are actual legal names. I don't care
either.
I wouldn't know any participant here, including you, if I saw them on
the street. I take that back - you'd be the guy stopped along the road
ritualistically trying to install a replacement presta valve.
I must ask - how many times have you actually done this on the road?
DR
Jobst Brandt
>> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and
>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
>> old dead tubular tire. [...]
> What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
Drop by your bike shop and dig up a dead tubular and work from there.
Use some imagination!
Jobst Brandt
DirtRoadie
Jobst-
We are glad to see that YOU are using your imagination. Tubular tires
are not very common these days and tubes, even latex ones from
tubulars, rarely if ever, have the clamp-on type of valve you
describe. It's probably time you set your clock forward into the 21st
century.
DR
Jobst Brandt
>>>>[snip]
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/290c81c2e5a2b9d8
Not all bikies are wealthy enough to toss out a tube every time it
gets a puncture. I see you don't believe in a tire patch kit or for
tgat matter, probably a tire pump.
Modern living!
> A clamp-in-place valve stem will ONLY solve the separated stem
> issue. And even then is only viable IF one has a clamp-in-place
> stem and the neccessary wrench. The stem, contrary to your
> suggestion, is not a readily available item.
All tubular (latex tube) stems fulfill that need.
> That you may have a stockpile dating to the last century is of
> little consequence to others.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
Read this newsgroup and you'll see that tubulars are still around.
> And I'll save any patching for a session where I can tackle a group
> of repairs in a time-effective manner, not to mention not having
> have to do any patching in adverse weather or while other riders are
> waiting.
So what do you have planned for an on-the -road leaker. They usually
get leaky around the stem while being used.
> I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this century
> have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole' chunk of rubber
> at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a clamp nut.
You cannot vulcanize latex tubes. Thanks for the imagined solution.
>> The occurrence of stem separations was common a few months ago and
>> still plagues some riders who were unfortunate to have bought tubes
>> with this manufacturing error.
> A few months ago?
> This is the same mantra you began chanting 15 years ago and have been
> repeating ever since.
I see you write your own history of events to match your phony bicycle
maintenance. You apparently don't care to read wreck.bike where these
failures are reported currently.
> The issue of separating stems is a recognized problem that has been
> mentioned a number of times over quite a few years. It's nothing new
> in just in the last few months.
So?
> Separated valve stems:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/abf41195216ffe4e/16cb641b208c0e18
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/db676a85bf85c95e/d7047ed21ff84f34
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/74d0ed0aaa8e4ae6/8c21007559aaf96a
> Recognize any of the posters in those threads?
> In any case, nobody yet seems to have come up with any definitive,
> reliable and readily available repair method. The general consensus
> to date is that such tubes are best discarded.
Explain what a "general concensus" is. I only know a consensus:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
>>> At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
>> I don't see the basis for your snide comment. Where is the ritual?
> I guess that is the nature of ritual - the one who is engaged in it
> believes to be "natural" - something other than ritual. OK, just
> call it "habit" if you must. In light of the simplicity of carrying
> as readily available tube capable of "all purpose" repair, it
> certainly appears to me that you are going out of your way to
> justify carrying a (smaller) repair presta valve and other
> paraphenalia in lieu of a tube.
I didn't say I don't carry a tube, but I don't use it unless
necessary.
> To paraphrase:
> "It doesn't hurt to carry a spare tube unless you are a weight
> weenie."
> Reference:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
>> Your use of underscores in writing seems more of a ritual to
>> me. Who are you anyway and why do you hide your name
>> ritualistically?
> OK, it's a ritual. I worship the underscore gods, although I *like*
> asterisks and LOVE capitalization. And my use of a consistent
> identifier here is also entirely ritualistic. Why do you have such
> an aversion to pseudonyms or nicknames? Of what concern is it to you
> or anyone else what name I use? I assume you are also deeply
> offended that "Mark Twain" was not his real name. And I don't know
> whether ANY of the names that appear here are actual legal names. I
> don't care either.
> I wouldn't know any participant here, including you, if I saw them
> on the street. I take that back - you'd be the guy stopped along
> the road ritualistically trying to install a replacement presta
> valve.
Oh yes, hiding behind an alias is so modern and erudite. It's like
wearing dark glasses at all times in public... snazzy! Just like a
movie idol.
> I must ask - how many times have you actually done this on the road?
Two or three times as well as for tubes at home for myself and others.
What does that matter?
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
>>>> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and
>>>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
>>>> old dead tubular tire. [...]
>>> What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
>> Drop by your bike shop and dig up a dead tubular and work from
>> there. Use some imagination!
> We are glad to see that YOU are using your imagination. Tubular
> tires are not very common these days and tubes, even latex ones from
> tubulars, rarely if ever, have the clamp-on type of valve you
> describe. It's probably time you set your clock forward into the
> 21st century.
Tubulars using latex tubes, the kind generally used for better quality
tubulars, all have screw collar stem attachment, latex not agreeing
with vulcanization. Don't be so difficult.
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
>>>>[snip]
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/290c81c2e5a2b9d8
Not all bikies are wealthy enough to toss out a tube every time it
gets a puncture. I see you don't believe in a tire patch kit or for
that matter, probably a tire pump.
Modern living!
> A clamp-in-place valve stem will ONLY solve the separated stem
> issue. And even then is only viable IF one has a clamp-in-place
> stem and the neccessary wrench. The stem, contrary to your
> suggestion, is not a readily available item.
All tubular (latex tube) stems fulfill that need.
> That you may have a stockpile dating to the last century is of
> little consequence to others.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
Read this newsgroup and you'll see that tubulars are still around.
> And I'll save any patching for a session where I can tackle a group
> of repairs in a time-effective manner, not to mention not having
> have to do any patching in adverse weather or while other riders are
> waiting.
So what do you have planned for an on-the -road leaker. They usually
get leaky around the stem while being used.
> I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this century
> have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole' chunk of rubber
> at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a clamp nut.
You cannot vulcanize latex tubes. Thanks for the imagined solution.
>> The occurrence of stem separations was common a few months ago and
>> still plagues some riders who were unfortunate to have bought tubes
>> with this manufacturing error.
> A few months ago?
> This is the same mantra you began chanting 15 years ago and have been
> repeating ever since.
I see you write your own history of events to match your phony bicycle
maintenance. You apparently don't care to read wreck.bike where these
failures are reported currently.
> The issue of separating stems is a recognized problem that has been
> mentioned a number of times over quite a few years. It's nothing new
> in just in the last few months.
So?
> Separated valve stems:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/abf41195216f
fe4e/16cb641b208c0e18
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/db676a85bf85
c95e/d7047ed21ff84f34
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/74d0ed0aaa8e
4ae6/8c21007559aaf96a
> Recognize any of the posters in those threads?
> In any case, nobody yet seems to have come up with any definitive,
> reliable and readily available repair method. The general consensus
> to date is that such tubes are best discarded.
Explain what a "general concensus" is. I only know a consensus:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
>>> At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
>> I don't see the basis for your snide comment. Where is the ritual?
> I guess that is the nature of ritual - the one who is engaged in it
> believes to be "natural" - something other than ritual. OK, just
> call it "habit" if you must. In light of the simplicity of carrying
> as readily available tube capable of "all purpose" repair, it
> certainly appears to me that you are going out of your way to
> justify carrying a (smaller) repair presta valve and other
> paraphenalia in lieu of a tube.
I didn't say I don't carry a tube, but I don't use it unless
necessary.
> To paraphrase:
> "It doesn't hurt to carry a spare tube unless you are a weight
> weenie."
> Reference:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
>> Your use of underscores in writing seems more of a ritual to
>> me. Who are you anyway and why do you hide your name
>> ritualistically?
> OK, it's a ritual. I worship the underscore gods, although I *like*
> asterisks and LOVE capitalization. And my use of a consistent
> identifier here is also entirely ritualistic. Why do you have such
> an aversion to pseudonyms or nicknames? Of what concern is it to you
> or anyone else what name I use? I assume you are also deeply
> offended that "Mark Twain" was not his real name. And I don't know
> whether ANY of the names that appear here are actual legal names. I
> don't care either.
> I wouldn't know any participant here, including you, if I saw them
> on the street. I take that back - you'd be the guy stopped along
> the road ritualistically trying to install a replacement presta
> valve.
Oh yes, hiding behind an alias is so modern and erudite. It's like
wearing dark glasses at all times in public... snazzy! Just like a
movie idol.
> I must ask - how many times have you actually done this on the road?
Two or three times as well as for tubes at home for myself and others.
AMuzi
valve and
>>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
>>> old dead tubular tire. [...]
> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Drop by your bike shop and dig up a dead tubular and work from there.
> Use some imagination!
Photo:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/JBPV1.JPG
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
DirtRoadie
> >>> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta
> valve and
>
> >>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
> >>> old dead tubular tire. [...]
> > Ben Pfaff wrote:
> >> What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
> Jobst Brandt wrote:
> > Drop by your bike shop and dig up a dead tubular and work from there.
> > Use some imagination!
>
> Photo:http://www.yellowjersey.org/JBPV1.JPG
Hey Andrew, how many of those do YOU have lying around?
DR
DirtRoadie
> Not all bikies are wealthy enough to toss out a tube every time it
> gets a puncture. I see you don't believe in a tire patch kit or for
> tgat matter, probably a tire pump.
>
> Modern living!
Nonsense. I never said that and I described how I patch tires
regularly. I just don't waste my time carrying a patch kit to do it on
the road.
> > A clamp-in-place valve stem will ONLY solve the separated stem
> > issue. And even then is only viable IF one has a clamp-in-place
> > stem and the neccessary wrench. The stem, contrary to your
> > suggestion, is not a readily available item.
>
> All tubular (latex tube) stems fulfill that need.
You are living in the past. Please identify a currently manufactured
tubular stem that is as you describe.
Also please identify the date of this photo:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/JBPV1.JPG
> > That you may have a stockpile dating to the last century is of
> > little consequence to others.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
>
> Read this newsgroup and you'll see that tubulars are still around.
No question, I never suggested otherwise. But that is not the issue.
Thanks for misreading though.
> > And I'll save any patching for a session where I can tackle a group
> > of repairs in a time-effective manner, not to mention not having
> > have to do any patching in adverse weather or while other riders are
> > waiting.
As previously noted, you apparently missed the paragraph above.
> So what do you have planned for an on-the -road leaker. They usually
> get leaky around the stem while being used.
My goodness your reading comprehension is poor! I carry a spare tube.
Sometimes more than one. I'm often riding with someone else who is
doing the same. It would be a VERY rare occurence to have more flats
than available tubes.
> > I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this century
> > have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole' chunk of rubber
> > at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a clamp nut.
>
> You cannot vulcanize latex tubes. Thanks for the imagined solution.
Wow. Have you always lived in this state of denial?
http://www.canadabicycleparts.com/images/cpt20-103.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41hWaOQYuXL._SS500_.jpg
I also have an ancient Air-B and some Vittoria MTB latex tubes still
sitting in their original packaging - same type of big rubber base on
the valve stem.
Use a word other than "vulcanized" if you must. The valve stems on
today's' latex tubes are adhered, not mechanically clamped.
> I see you write your own history of events to match your phony bicycle
> maintenance. You apparently don't care to read wreck.bike where these
> failures are reported currently.
Please explain your use of the word "phony." Ah! name calling, aren't
you?
You are correct. I don't read "wreck.bike" if that is something other
than here. I'm sure that is utterly sinful.
> > The issue of separating stems is a recognized problem that has been
> > mentioned a number of times over quite a few years. It's nothing new
> > in just in the last few months.
>
> So?
So why would you make the silly comment that "The occurrence of stem
separations was common a few months ago and still plagues some riders
who were unfortunate to have bought tubes with this manufacturing
error."
Thanks for your thoughtful well articulated comment.
> > Separated valve stems:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/ab...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/db...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/74...
>
> > Recognize any of the posters in those threads?
> > In any case, nobody yet seems to have come up with any definitive,
> > reliable and readily available repair method. The general consensus
> > to date is that such tubes are best discarded.
>
> Explain what a "general concensus" is. I only know a consensus:
I have never heard of a "concensus." Does that happen every ten
years?
Are you suggesting redundancy? Like your habit of posting your
responses in duplicate?
> >>> At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
>
> I didn't say I don't carry a tube, but I don't use it unless
> necessary.
Now we're talking serious ritual!
> > I wouldn't know any participant here, including you, if I saw them
> > on the street. I take that back - you'd be the guy stopped along
> > the road ritualistically trying to install a replacement presta
> > valve.
>
> Oh yes, hiding behind an alias is so modern and erudite. It's like
> wearing dark glasses at all times in public... snazzy! Just like a
> movie idol.
Is that your opinion or are you asserting it as a FACT?
> > I must ask - how many times have you actually done this on the road?
>
> Two or three times as well as for tubes at home for myself and others.
> What does that matter?
Just curious.
Jobst -
You have some useful information. However not ALL your information is
useful and much of your information is dated. You regularly set up
straw men and shoot them down. You espouse opinions as fact. You
criticize others for taking a position without "evidence," yet you do
it all the time.
Your hypotheses are fact, those of others are unsupported
speculation.
Look in the mirror once in while with the same critical perspective
you use on others. You will look much better to others as a result.
DR
DirtRoadie
DirtRoadie
> Shoe Goo is not going to do it on flexible butyl. There may be some
> other product like barge cement that might do the trick. Personally,
> I have taken a patch and created a hole in the middle with an exacto
> knife, slipped it over the valve and used that with the usual
> vulcanizing fluid. It worked for a while, IIRC. I just throw those
> tubes away now. -- Jay Beattie.
Just to follow up a bit - I'm not sure that there is a need for any
dramatic flexibility at the base of a valve stem. Some, but not a lot
since the breach typically is close the stem. Have you experimented
with shoe goo adhered to butyl? Is adhering a problem?
I'm asking because of your comment and because I have not yet
performed this specific experiment.
Thinking out loud- It seems the ideal material would be something that
could be applied in the manner of a "shoe goo" type paste, and which
would solidly adhere to butyl. It would otherwise (when cured) have
all the characteristics of butyl. With all the crap that's out there,
it seems that there should be SOMETHING that would work reliably. If
marketing claims alone could be believed, one of the plethora of
silicone rubber caulks/adhesives/sealants should have it covered,
DR
AMuzi
>> valve and
>>>>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
>>>>> old dead tubular tire. [...]
>>> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>>>> What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
>> Jobst Brandt wrote:
>>> Drop by your bike shop and dig up a dead tubular and work from there.
>>> Use some imagination!
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Photo:http://www.yellowjersey.org/JBPV1.JPG
DirtRoadie wrote:
> Hey Andrew, how many of those do YOU have lying around?
One in my personal tool box. Been there a good long while
too. That photo is Mr Brandt's, not mine
I don't recall ever having a valve separation on a tubular
(and the butyl tube models I ride are molded base, not bolt-in)
Although I decry modernity often, the ubiquity of removable
valve cores is one of the best features of this century so
far IMHO. Bent valve pins were once a common frustration.
DirtRoadie
Thanks
DR
Mark J.
> On Aug 30, 3:03 pm, Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>> Shoe Goo is not going to do it on flexible butyl. There may be some
>> other product like barge cement that might do the trick. Personally,
>> I have taken a patch and created a hole in the middle with an exacto
>> knife, slipped it over the valve and used that with the usual
>> vulcanizing fluid. It worked for a while, IIRC. I just throw those
>> tubes away now. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Just to follow up a bit - I'm not sure that there is a need for any
> dramatic flexibility at the base of a valve stem. Some, but not a lot
> since the breach typically is close the stem. Have you experimented
> with shoe goo adhered to butyl? Is adhering a problem?
I've used Shoe Goo with great success on the /tread/ of tires, both
vulcanized and tires that are allegedly hand-made (conceivably
non-vulcanized, like the high-end tubulars of old). Don't know what
sort of rubbers these treads are made of, so it might not be relevant to
Butyl, but in my usage, adhesion is very good - the goo seems to become
an inseparable part of the surface to which it is applied.
Clean the target surface beforehand, of course.
Good luck,
Mark J.
thirty-six
I don't know, they are capillary action sealants meant to stop the
rain, but winscrren rubbers are butyl from what I have seen.
> (2) Have its own inherent strength when cured so as to be able to
> provide a gap-spanning structural skin.
Capillary action, not gap filling.
> (3) be capable of doing 1 and 2 in a flexible manner.
>
> In applying a standard patch, elements 1 and 2 are accomplish with
> separate components - glue and patch.
>
I thought you were being specific for a stem bond. Goo or whatever
they call it is used to repair truck sidewalls and is then vulcanised
with a hot iron. If you could get some of this stuff, you could use
it instead of patches, using brown (packing) paper t0o prevent
sticking to the iron. I don't think the goo keeps long though. The
iron can be a knife blade heated with a cigarette lighter.
Now, hold on, you would need to get the goo specifically for synthetic
tyres. That would depend on ehether truck tyres are available in
anything other than natural rubber in your locality. Whatever, try
and scrounge some sidewall repair paste from a commercial tyre
repairer.
thirty-six
Euch, green!
thirty-six
My tubs have butyl tubes, no clamp. I did use latex tubes 1989 or so,
they did not have screw clamps and the stem bond remained -perfect for
the life of the tube. They were Vittoria tubes IIRC
Jobst Brandt
>>>>>>> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and
>>>>>>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
>>>>>>> old dead tubular tire. [...]
>>>>>> What should those of us who don't have old dead tubular tires do?
>>>>> Drop by your bike shop and dig up a dead tubular and work from
>>>>> there. Use some imagination!
>>>> We are glad to see that YOU are using your imagination. Tubular
>>>> tires are not very common these days and tubes, even latex ones from
>>>> tubulars, rarely if ever, have the clamp-on type of valve you
>>>> describe. It's probably time you set your clock forward into the
>>>> 21st century.
>>> Tubulars using latex tubes, the kind generally used for better quality
>>> tubulars, all have screw collar stem attachment, latex not agreeing
>>> with vulcanization. Don't be so difficult.
>> Some evidence please:
>> I'll start:http://www.canadabicycleparts.com/images/cpt20-103.jpg
> Euch, green!
They use the green stuff because the plain yellow latex does not take
well to rubber cement, and they want to save time and money my gluing
on the stems.
Evidence is that we have plenty screw-on stems and you've seen one in
a picture in this thread on stems.
Jobst Brandt
thirty-six
The Vittoria tubes I used were plain latex with stuck-on valve-stems.
They survived without a hitch and would take any patch or cement, but
I left the glue to dry so that's why they worked.
DirtRoadie
I was.
> Goo or whatever
> they call it is used to repair truck sidewalls and is then vulcanised
> with a hot iron. If you could get some of this stuff, you could use
> it instead of patches, using brown (packing) paper t0o prevent
> sticking to the iron. I don't think the goo keeps long though. The
> iron can be a knife blade heated with a cigarette lighter.
> Now, hold on, you would need to get the goo specifically for synthetic
> tyres. That would depend on ehether truck tyres are available in
> anything other than natural rubber in your locality. Whatever, try
> and scrounge some sidewall repair paste from a commercial tyre
> repairer.
I was describing the characteristics I thought would be necessary for
it to work.
I envisioned a material that would adhere the breach as well be able
to form a reinforcing skin to bridge over the breach. The
characteristics I described would conceivably make the same material
usable as a "slather-on" patch material. That was why I was describing
the components of a patch.
I was really hoping that someone would describe success with a
hardware store material. I
doubt that I will make any effort to specially track down the material
you describe but thanks for pointing that out. But now that you
mention it, I do have an unopened tube of some stuff (see
awesomegoo.com) that I picked up for other purposes. It, also, is a
heat curable non-solvent material. But, as yet, I have no experience
using it. If the marketing claims are to be believed, it could be
just the ticket.
DR
DirtRoadie
Evidence? What evidence?
Ah! A photograph of one! Undeniable and conclusive proof that
something exists in abundance. And when was your photo taken?
You claim to have a few. Mr Muzi says he has "One in my personal tool
box. Been there a good long while too."
The damn things are EVERYWHERE, aren't they?
Jobst, do you have any idea how silly you sound?
(Note: if you are trying to be funny you are failing miserably there
too.)
dr
thirty-six
I've got at least one (from 197 9) of which the valve rubber has
likely perished. It was part of my repair kit for maybe 10 years, I
never used it because I never suffered valve stem separation. It not
on either bikes repair kit now. I mostly ride tubulars and would
just ride them flat if I ran out of spares. I'm sure Jobst's valve
would be fine though.Faith is a wonderful companion.
DirtRoadie
> But now that you
> mention it, I do have an unopened tube of some stuff (see
> awesomegoo.com) that I picked up for other purposes. It, also, is a
> heat curable non-solvent material. But, as yet, I have no experience
> using it. If the marketing claims are to be believed, it could be
> just the ticket.
Quick followup-
I located the "goo" and applied a small dab to a tube, then dunked it
in hot water (near boiling) for a few minutes as per the instructions.
The goo set up with a consistency very similar to the rubber pad used
to bond valve stems to latex tubes. It stuck far better than I
expected. Stretching the rubber would not dislodge it. I was able to
peel it off, but not without a bit of effort by clawing at the edge
with a fingernail. It did eventually peel off cleanly in a single
chunk without tearing.
From that very brief trial I can't tell whether it would work, but I
have not ruled it out yet. In any case, it's interesting stuff and
easy to work with. Pretty expensive though.
DR
DirtRoadie
> Tubulars using latex tubes, the kind generally used for better quality
> tubulars, all have screw collar stem attachment, ... Don't be so difficult.
Thus far we have seen no evidence that this statement is true in the
21st century. In fact you have not provided an example that it is
presently true in ONE instance, much less ALL.
Sounds like myth and/or lore to me.
It may well have been true 30 years ago. That has little bearing on
whether it is true today.
Don't be so difficult.
DR
Ben Pfaff
The closest bike shop to me, as it happens, is Mike Jacoubowsky's
Chain Reaction in Redwood City. Mike, how many of these things
do you have to sell to random customers?
--
"Term, holidays, term, holidays, till we leave school,
and then work, work, work till we die."
C. S. Lewis
David Scheidt
:> I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this century
:> have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole' chunk of rubber
:> at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a clamp nut.
:You cannot vulcanize latex tubes. Thanks for the imagined solution.
What? there is all sorts of vulcanized latex around, inlcuding inner
tubes. Latex that's not vulcanized isn't very useful for end
products, beyond glue.
--
sig 126
Jobst Brandt
They are not "vulcanized"... vulcanizing being a thermally bonding (by
fire) in ancient times process. I think you mean glued in place with
a rubber pad. Latex doesn't lend itself to actual vulcanizing.
That is the problem with separating Presta valve stems in butyl inner
tubes. The vulcanizing process was allowed to overheat and turn the
interface into charcoal.
Jobst Brandt
David Scheidt
:David Scheidt wrote:
:>>> I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this
:>>> century have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole'
:>>> chunk of rubber at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a
:>>> clamp nut.
:>> You cannot vulcanize latex tubes. Thanks for the imagined
:>> solution.
:> What? there is all sorts of vulcanized latex around, inlcuding
:> inner tubes. Latex that's not vulcanized isn't very useful for end
:> products, beyond glue.
:They are not "vulcanized"... vulcanizing being a thermally bonding (by
:fire) in ancient times process. I think you mean glued in place with
:a rubber pad. Latex doesn't lend itself to actual vulcanizing.
No. I mean "cross-linked with sulfur". Heat is a usual, but
optional, part of the process, as it greatly speeds the reaction up.
Latex lends itself perfectly well to actual vulcanizing, which you'd
find not at all remarkable if you remember that synthetic rubbers date
to the 1940s, and vulcanization to the 1840s, a century later. Latex
innertubes are made by extruding a specially prepared pre-vulcanized
latex, which in modern practice has a very thin layer of butyl
rubber sprayed on the outside (greatly reduces permabality). The
extruded tube is vulcanized, cut to length, turned inside out, and
the ends and valve glued together.
--
sig 57
thirty-six
> Jobst Brandt <jbra...@sonic.net> considered 01 Sep 2010 22:52:40 GMT
> the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> >As shy person wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Beyond that, even a latex tube can be repaired by punching a
> >>>>>>> hole in a round Rema patch with the original stem secured
> >>>>>>> therein, and placed as a patch on the latex tube.
>
> >>>>>[snip]
>
> >>>>> From that I take it you are slightly impractical and certainly
> >>>>> have not tried the method which has two advantages. It can be
> >>>>> done on the road, and it costs less than a new tube.
>
> >>>> OK, since you raised the issue of being impractical, I have to ask
> >>>> - Why, in heaven's name, would you carry your obscure spare Presta
> >>>> valve to conduct this ritual _on the road_ to solve a problem
> >>>> which occurs infrequently. You could just as easily carry a spare
> >>>> _tube_ which provides a quick, simple and 100% reliable solution
> >>>> to this particular problem as well as any other puncture, large or
> >>>> small, which does not involve damage to the tire itself.
>
> >>> A spare tube is far larger than a tubular tire Presta valve and
> >>> costs far more, considering that the stem is a left-over from an
> >>> containing a strip of belt-sander grit, a tube of glue, some
> >>> patches, a plastic shaver head (to remove mold seams) and a Presta
> >>> stem.
>
> >> A spare tube will solve not only (1) the separated valve problem,
> >> but (2) any other normal puncture. No on-the-road patching
> >> necessary. No need to carry a patch kit as well. Nor the wrench
> >> necessary to install valve.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/290c81c2e5a2b9d8
>
> >Not all bikies are wealthy enough to toss out a tube every time it
> >gets a puncture. I see you don't believe in a tire patch kit or for
>
> >Modern living!
>
> Who said they tossed the tube?
> I just swap because it's quicker, then I can repair the damaged one in
> far more suitable conditions at home.
> And I don't use CO2 because it always involves throwing something
> away, whereas a pump is almost infinitely reusable.
I dont think showing a border collie a CO2 cartridge at the farm gate
is going to do much good, and once you've thrown it, thenwhat?
> If CO2 cartridges were refillable, I might carry a couple of them as
> well, and keep a larger cylinder at home.
> That would save as much time as not patching on the road does, and
> have a similar environmental cost.
>
>
>
> >> A clamp-in-place valve stem will ONLY solve the separated stem
> >> issue. And even then is only viable IF one has a clamp-in-place
> >> stem and the neccessary wrench. The stem, contrary to your
> >> suggestion, is not a readily available item.
>
> >All tubular (latex tube) stems fulfill that need.
>
> Most new ones that I've seen pictures of online seem to be bonded in
> some way these days.
> I don't use tubs, and I don't believe I know anyone personally that
> does either, so I'd have to buy a clamp-in presta valve specially to
> have as a spare, just in case I have a type of tube failure that I've
> never actually seen.
> Do you carry spare frame tubes and a brazing kit as well?
> I mean, you never know, and it's best to be on the safe side :)
>
>
>
> >> That you may have a stockpile dating to the last century is of
> >> little consequence to others.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
>
> >Read this newsgroup and you'll see that tubulars are still around.
>
> >> And I'll save any patching for a session where I can tackle a group
> >> of repairs in a time-effective manner, not to mention not having
> >> have to do any patching in adverse weather or while other riders are
> >> waiting.
>
> >So what do you have planned for an on-the -road leaker. They usually
> >get leaky around the stem while being used.
>
> I'll swap it out, and check the tube at home later.
> If it is fixable, I'll patch it.
> If it isn't, I'll replace it instead.
I know someone who managed to have two spare tubesl fail on the same
ride because he used mineral oil in his pump. The contamination had
first occured some weeks before.
>
>
>
> >> I think you will also find that even most latex tubes in this century
> >> have a valve stem vulcanized in place with a big ole' chunk of rubber
> >> at its base - not a metal mushroom fitting with a clamp nut.
>
> >You cannot vulcanize latex tubes. Thanks for the imagined solution.
>
> They may not be vulcanised, but they are bonded.
>
>
>
> >>> The occurrence of stem separations was common a few months ago and
> >>> still plagues some riders who were unfortunate to have bought tubes
> >>> with this manufacturing error.
>
> >> A few months ago?
>
> >> This is the same mantra you began chanting 15 years ago and have been
> >> repeating ever since.
>
> >I see you write your own history of events to match your phony bicycle
> >maintenance. You apparently don't care to read wreck.bike where these
> >failures are reported currently.
>
> >> The issue of separating stems is a recognized problem that has been
> >> mentioned a number of times over quite a few years. It's nothing new
> >> in just in the last few months.
>
> >So?
>
> >> Separated valve stems:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/ab...
> >fe4e/16cb641b208c0e18
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/db...
> >c95e/d7047ed21ff84f34
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/74...
> >4ae6/8c21007559aaf96a
>
> >> Recognize any of the posters in those threads?
>
> >> In any case, nobody yet seems to have come up with any definitive,
> >> reliable and readily available repair method. The general consensus
> >> to date is that such tubes are best discarded.
>
> >Explain what a "general concensus" is. I only know a consensus:
>
> >http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
>
> >>>> At bit caught up in justifying our rituals, are we?
>
> >>> I don't see the basis for your snide comment. Where is the ritual?
>
> >> I guess that is the nature of ritual - the one who is engaged in it
> >> believes to be "natural" - something other than ritual. OK, just
> >> call it "habit" if you must. In light of the simplicity of carrying
> >> as readily available tube capable of "all purpose" repair, it
> >> certainly appears to me that you are going out of your way to
> >> justify carrying a (smaller) repair presta valve and other
> >> paraphenalia in lieu of a tube.
>
> >I didn't say I don't carry a tube, but I don't use it unless
> >necessary.
>
> >> To paraphrase:
>
> >> "It doesn't hurt to carry a spare tube unless you are a weight
> >> weenie."
> >> Reference:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/d061525dec4dd4a3
>
> >>> Your use of underscores in writing seems more of a ritual to
> >>> me. Who are you anyway and why do you hide your name
> >>> ritualistically?
>
> >> OK, it's a ritual. I worship the underscore gods, although I *like*
> >> asterisks and LOVE capitalization. And my use of a consistent
> >> identifier here is also entirely ritualistic. Why do you have such
> >> an aversion to pseudonyms or nicknames? Of what concern is it to you
> >> or anyone else what name I use? I assume you are also deeply
> >> offended that "Mark Twain" was not his real name. And I don't know
> >> whether ANY of the names that appear here are actual legal names. I
> >> don't care either.
>
> >> I wouldn't know any participant here, including you, if I saw them
> >> on the street. I take that back - you'd be the guy stopped along
> >> the road ritualistically trying to install a replacement presta
> >> valve.
>
> >Oh yes, hiding behind an alias is so modern and erudite. It's like
> >wearing dark glasses at all times in public... snazzy! Just like a
> >movie idol.
>
> >> I must ask - how many times have you actually done this on the road?
>
> >Two or three times as well as for tubes at home for myself and others.
> >What does that matter?
>
> You seem to be wrecking a lot of stems.
> Maybe you should examine your pumping technique?
Oil!
DirtRoadie
As a result of the foregoing and against my better judgment, I dug
into the trash and retrieved my most recent tube (of very few) with a
partially separated presta valve stem. I used a tiny portion of the
"Awesome Goo" on hand to fabricate a low conical reinforcement pad
around the base of the valve stem, the idea being to bridge the
separated gap with solid material and reinforce the not-yet-separated
portion of stem base. The material is nice to work with since it does
not "skin over" or dry as one is working with it. The reinforcement
was cured in minutes in near boiling hot water as per the instructions
(H2O in a bowl heated in microwave oven, tube dunked into the heated
water).
The result looks surprisingly good and stands up to a simple "tug"
test.
I won't pronounce the experiment successful until the tube (for an
MTB) has survived a substantial amount of riding. "Substantial" is a
technical term meaning "Whenever I decide enough is enough," which is
probably about equal to the time until it either fails or I have
forgotten that I am testing a tube repair. And since the tube is not
yet installed in a wheel, that may be later rather than sooner.
And, yes, even if this solution proves to good, it may be entirely
impractical for most who do not have any "awesome goo" on hand (it
only takes a dab) and who see no need to fork over nearly $10 US for a
fairly small tube of the stuff, since a new tube (for the tire) costs
much less. But it is every bit as practical as, for example, trying
to locate an obscure repair item that was in use 30 or so years ago.
DR
DirtRoadie
> On Sep 2, 10:36 pm, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 2, 7:53 pm, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > But now that you
> > > mention it, I do have an unopened tube of some stuff (see
> > > awesomegoo.com) that I picked up for other purposes. It, also, is a
> > > heat curable non-solvent material. But, as yet, I have no experience
> > > using it. If the marketing claims are to be believed, it could be
> > > just the ticket.
>
> > Quick followup-
> > I located the "goo" and applied a small dab to a tube, then dunked it
> > in hot water (near boiling) for a few minutes as per the instructions.
> > The goo set up with a consistency very similar to the rubber pad used
> > to bond valve stems to latex tubes. It stuck far better than I
> > expected. Stretching the rubber would not dislodge it. I was able to
> > peel it off, but not without a bit of effort by clawing at the edge
> > with a fingernail. It did eventually peel off cleanly in a single
> > chunk without tearing.
>
> > From that very brief trial I can't tell whether it would work, but I
> > have not ruled it out yet. In any case, it's interesting stuff and
> > easy to work with. Pretty expensive though.
>
> As a result of the foregoing and against my better judgment, I dug
> into the trash and retrieved my most recent tube (of very few) with a
> "Awesome Goo" on hand to fabricate a low conical reinforcement pad
> around the base of the valve stem, the idea being to bridge the
> separated gap with solid material and reinforce the not-yet-separated
> portion of stem base. The material is nice to work with since it does
> not "skin over" or dry as one is working with it. The reinforcement
> was cured in minutes in near boiling hot water as per the instructions
> (H2O in a bowl heated in microwave oven, tube dunked into the heated
> water).
>
> The result looks surprisingly good and stands up to a simple "tug"
> test.
> I won't pronounce the experiment successful until the tube (for an
> MTB) has survived a substantial amount of riding. "Substantial" is a
> technical term meaning "Whenever I decide enough is enough," which is
> probably about equal to the time until it either fails or I have
DirtRoadie
[re "Awesome Goo" for presta repair ]
> The result looks surprisingly good and stands up to a simple "tug"
> test.
> I won't pronounce the experiment successful until the tube (for an
> MTB) has survived a substantial amount of riding. "Substantial" is a
> technical term meaning "Whenever I decide enough is enough," which is
> probably about equal to the time until it either fails ....
It has failed. The material is tough but does not appear to have
sufficient adhesion to a tube for this particular purpose.
DR
thirty-six
Try again with better surface preparation.