Kirchen Possible Heart Attack
B. Lafferty
Cicero Venatio
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
-----------
When you turn your blood into ketchup thick consistency what do you
expect is going to happen.
Joe Big
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
The magnetic field from his bike motor probably interfered with the
signals to his heart.
Brad Anders
Drop dead, asshole. This guy is fighting for his life.
Brad Anders
Cicero Venatio
> The magnetic field from his bike motor probably interfered with the
> signals to his heart.
How about an electric short in the wrong place, considering the massive
energy in those modern batteries.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:fvWdnYhtaesV2oDR...@earthlink.com...
Which may not be too far from the truth; some folks hearts have electrical
issues. Whatever it is, the guy is alive & fighting and it's pretty harsh
making fun of the situation.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Fred on a stick
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
Ugh. Induced coma.
z, fred
+1
B. Lafferty
placed in an induced coma. But then, I'm not a physician.
z, fred
CV, in all his iterations, has been never been anything but a troll and
jackass. I hope that whoever he is, in 10, 20, 30 years he reflects and
is embarrassed of the shit he tried to stir.
Betty
> When you turn your blood into ketchup thick consistency what do you
> expect is going to happen.
A. Dumas
More details: cardiac arrest rather than heart attack (team website now
says infarction & thrombosis have been ruled out). About the coma, more
info by searching for "therapeutic hypothermia".
His wife is expecting twins any day, their first kids.
Fred on a stick
Best wishes for a full recovery.
Yeah, when I heard "induced coma" I figured cardiac arrest was involved.
It's not typical to do that for a heart attack unless the heart actually
stopped for a while. Even then the benefits of it are in dispute.
Anton Berlin
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
More evidence that doping is a 'victimless crime'.
Brad Anders
So, any time an athlete has any kind of health problem, it's due to
doping?
Brad Anders
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:cf098367-f2ec-43c0...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 19, 8:36 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
>More evidence that doping is a 'victimless crime'.
You're privy to information the rest of us aren't? Besides, I thought it had
been pretty well established that "doping to the max" has been nearly
eliminated, as evidenced by more "normal" blood values seen during Grand
Tours.
Some people just have bad tickers. Many athletes end up being told by
doctors that they shouldn't be competing, that they're risking an "event" by
doing so, and yet they continue. Not saying this was the case with Kirchen,
I don't know his history, nor do you. But locally I know of two strong
cyclists who had no prior history of heart issues, definitely weren't on
dope, and yet dropped dead during rides. Bad things sometimes happen to good
people.
B. Lafferty
first cardiac arrest.
Anton Berlin
wrote:
> "Anton Berlin" <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
You think he's been eating too much bacon? The bacon sucks in
Europe.
Brad Anders
> You think he's been eating too much bacon? The bacon sucks in
> Europe.
Maybe you can get American bacon classified as a drug.
Brad Anders
Brad Anders
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
Updated news:
... followed by:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/22062010/58/kirchen-coma.html
Good to hear he's improving. From the first article, it sounds like a
rhythm problem. V-fib?
Brad Anders
--D-y
wrote:
>
> news:cf098367-f2ec-43c0...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 19, 8:36 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
> >More evidence that doping is a 'victimless crime'.
>
> You're privy to information the rest of us aren't? Besides, I thought it had
> been pretty well established that "doping to the max" has been nearly
> eliminated, as evidenced by more "normal" blood values seen during Grand
> Tours.
>
> Some people just have bad tickers. Many athletes end up being told by
> doctors that they shouldn't be competing, that they're risking an "event" by
> doing so, and yet they continue. Not saying this was the case with Kirchen,
> I don't know his history, nor do you. But locally I know of two strong
> cyclists who had no prior history of heart issues, definitely weren't on
> dope, and yet dropped dead during rides. Bad things sometimes happen to good
> people.
We're all (so far, anyhow!) going to die of something.
In that light, and in consideration of some really "bad" alternatives,
maybe dropping dead on a ride isn't such a bad thing at all.
In fact, my cohort has been instructed to follow the Rockefeller
Protocol should I suddenly appear to be taking a nap on a ride.
--D-y
Fred on a stick
> V-fib?
That'd be my guess.
Anton Berlin
according to some of my friends in the LU.
B. Lafferty
guy named Tony Simonetti who was in his early sixties. He always said
he wanted to go having the major heart attack while on his bike. That
happened one day. Tony had married a woman half his age a couple of
year earlier and she agreed that's how he wanted to die. Of course we
kidded her that maybe she put too much stress on his ticker--all she did
was smile.
B. Lafferty
> It looks as though it might just be a bad reaction to antibiotics
> according to some of my friends in the LU.
Rather bad reaction, eh?
Brad Anders
> It looks as though it might just be a bad reaction to antibiotics
> according to some of my friends in the LU.
More details on that in the article I cited earlier today. He had a
saddle sore, took antibiotics, had a bad reaction (no description of
what it was), ended up in the hospital. Was released, later found
unconscious by the side of the road, recovered but without any
explanation. Had another incident in Fleche Wallone, apparently
recovered. Collapsed after TdS stage, heart stopped, restarted by team
doc, put into medically-induced coma, emerged today.
Hard to say what's going on, need someone with cardiology or
electrophysiology experience to comment here.
Brad Anders
Fred on a stick
Yup. But it's not unknown -- when I read that he'd recently received
antibiotics I wondered about it.
Fred on a stick
> Hard to say what's going on, need someone with cardiology or
> electrophysiology experience to comment here.
Coggan might comment.
Anyway, erythromycin has been linked to sudden cardiac arrest,
especially when used with CCBs. Lengthens QT interval and can manifest
as either VT or (in bad cases as appears to have happened here) VF.
Don't you have a pig valve in you or something?
Brad Anders
Dacron ascending aorta. It's a great excuse any time I get shelled on
a ride, I blame it on the smaller diameter as compared to my
ballooned, free-flowing natural aorta. "I just haven't got the blood
flow I used to have".
I used to race with a guy who had a ball-and-cage mitral valve. You
could hear it clicking, very cool.
Brad Anders
Fred on a stick
> I used to race with a guy who had a ball-and-cage mitral valve. You
> could hear it clicking, very cool.
Could you listen to it and know when to attack?
B. Lafferty
It's possible, but he's supposedly had this or a similar problem before
with no cause found. Hope they get to the bottom of it sooner rather
than later.
Betty
>> I used to race with a guy who had a ball-and-cage mitral valve. You
>> could hear it clicking, very cool.
Fred on a stick wrote:
> Could you listen to it and know when to attack?
Or know when he was attacking.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:vYadnQEAOKKQkbzR...@giganews.com...
Not too soon. Let's hope it takes a while because he comes through this in
one piece, and pray the problem is found in a heated operating room and not
on a cold piece of marble.
Bad stuff really *does* happen to good people sometimes. Even in rbr, I
don't think it's unreasonable for all to hope things turn out well for
Kirchen.
Anton Berlin
wonders on the blood flow.
Brad Anders
> Brad - date a girl half your age with DD breasts like I do .... works
> wonders on the blood flow.
Anton, that's not your aorta.
Brad Anders
B. Lafferty
Scott
> Brad - date a girl half your age with DD breasts like I do .... works
> wonders on the blood flow.
Hey, wait a minute... aren't you like 32 or something?? You're not
Boonen's alter ego, are you?
z, fred
I'd say add almost 10 years.
Scott
Yeah, but then it wouldn't be funny, just pathetic.
--D-y
wrote:
> Not too soon. Let's hope it takes a while because he comes through this in
> one piece, and pray the problem is found in a heated operating room and not
> on a cold piece of marble.
>
> Bad stuff really *does* happen to good people sometimes. Even in rbr, I
> don't think it's unreasonable for all to hope things turn out well for
> Kirchen.
My remarks were based solely from a "you gotta go sometime"
standpoint, and thinking as a 61-year-old who does not want to linger,
suffer, be a burden, etc. etc.
Kirchen isn't gone yet (although it sounds like he needs to quit
trying <g>) and it is good to hear he has shown signs of improving and
remaining here a while longer; it is to be hoped he can live in a
state of good health, enough so to be able to add to the palmarès.
One of the neighborhood dads collapsed and died "while exercising at
home" very recently.
This is tough, he was only 39 and leaves a wife and two young
children. Far, far too early.
--D-y
RicodJour
> Brad - date a girl half your age with DD breasts like I do .... works
> wonders on the blood flow.
DD...? Isn't that online dating lingo for disease and drug, usually
followed by 'free'? Not sure how that applies to chestal
protuberances, but whatever floats your boat is okay with me.
R
Henry
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
I hate -really hate- that the first thing that popped into my mind was
"drugs cheat".
Far too cynical.
Hope he gets well soon.
Frederick the Great
<bf28e4a0-5077-4f79...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Henry <snogfest_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 1:36 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kirchen-suffers-suspected-heart-attack
>
> I hate -really hate- that the first thing that popped into my mind was
[...]
You do not have to say it. Or _do_ you?
--
Old Fritz
Brad Anders
Someone else posted this link recently:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewiss-Ballan#cite_note-7
It's pretty clear that Gewiss riders were some of the most extreme
users of EPO, looking at the table. Yet, to my knowledge, none of the
riders listed in the table have had any publicly announced health
issues (e.g. heart problems), despite all of the cries about EPO
turning your blood into mush and having your heart explode. Perhaps
the health risks of EPO have been wildly overstated, not unlike the
campaigns of the past against recreational drugs like pot.
These kind of misinformation approaches always backfire. Pros see
other pros using EPO, and instead of them dropping dead, they're
winning races and buying million-dollar homes, and retiring in luxury.
They see riders they know are doing EPO to the gills, going in for
drug tests and coming out being pronounced "clean". Is it too hard to
believe that after hearing the health risks misinformation, seeing the
performance improvements, and observing the apparent undetectability
(when managed correctly), that any pro with some talent and an IQ
above freezing wouldn't get on the bandwagon?
Brad Anders
Amit Ghosh
> It's pretty clear that Gewiss riders were some of the most extreme
> users of EPO, looking at the table. Yet, to my knowledge, none of the
> riders listed in the table have had any publicly announced health
> issues (e.g. heart problems), despite all of the cries about EPO
> turning your blood into mush and having your heart explode. Perhaps
> the health risks of EPO have been wildly overstated, not unlike the
> campaigns of the past against recreational drugs like pot.
dumbass,
the data is pretty sparse - you don't know who were the most
aggressive dopers and what they were taking and if risks remain after
the athlete stops doping.
there were a few notable deaths in the 90s, johannes draaijer, joachim
halupczok and phillipe casado (and a belgian pro who's name i can't
recall right now).
then there was the string of deaths in 2003-4, zanette, salanson,
zanoli, jimenez and pantani. the last three weren't active when they
died but were in their 30s.
Brad Anders
> On Jun 28, 10:46 am, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It's pretty clear that Gewiss riders were some of the most extreme
> > users of EPO, looking at the table. Yet, to my knowledge, none of the
> > riders listed in the table have had any publicly announced health
> > issues (e.g. heart problems), despite all of the cries about EPO
> > turning your blood into mush and having your heart explode. Perhaps
> > the health risks of EPO have been wildly overstated, not unlike the
> > campaigns of the past against recreational drugs like pot.
>
> dumbass,
>
> the data is pretty sparse - you don't know who were the most
> aggressive dopers and what they were taking and if risks remain after
> the athlete stops doping.
Of course the data are sparse, especially from that period. I suggest
that this table is actually one of the largest samples of hematocrit
data from the early era of essentially unregulated EPO use. As for the
level of aggression, I would look to the people such as Ugrumov, who
recorded a 60% hematocrit. I have no idea of the risks that would
remain after stopping EPO use, but I would suggest that the lack of
health problems of the guys in the Gewiss table doesn't indicate that
it's an inevitability.
> there were a few notable deaths in the 90s, johannes draaijer, joachim
> halupczok and phillipe casado (and a belgian pro who's name i can't
> recall right now).
True. And to my knowledge, not all (any?) of those cases you cite were
proven to be the result of EPO use at the levels shown in the Gewiss
table.
> then there was the string of deaths in 2003-4, zanette, salanson,
> zanoli, jimenez and pantani. the last three weren't active when they
> died but were in their 30's
IIRC, Pantani died of as a result of recreational drug use (cocaine?).
As for the rest, I have no idea. Could EPO have been a major factor?
Possibly. However, I suggest that this handful of riders represent a
small fraction of those who took EPO and apparently didn't die. I'm
sure if EPO were the "death drug" that it's been depicted as, that
there would be a lot more fear of it among pros and a lot fewer users.
That doesn't seem to be the case.
Brad Anders
Amit Ghosh
> True. And to my knowledge, not all (any?) of those cases you cite were
> proven to be the result of EPO use at the levels shown in the Gewiss
> table.
>
> > then there was the string of deaths in 2003-4, zanette, salanson,
> > zanoli, jimenez and pantani. the last three weren't active when they
> > died but were in their 30's
>
> IIRC, Pantani died of as a result of recreational drug use (cocaine?).
> As for the rest, I have no idea. Could EPO have been a major factor?
> Possibly. However, I suggest that this handful of riders represent a
> small fraction of those who took EPO and apparently didn't die. I'm
> sure if EPO were the "death drug" that it's been depicted as, that
> there would be a lot more fear of it among pros and a lot fewer users.
> That doesn't seem to be the case.
dumbass,
you're right, none of them have been linked to EPO, but suppose some
are.
at what level would you say it represents a health risk 1/1000,
5/1000 ?
Brad Anders
I haven't got any idea. Assuming that you don't keel over in a year
from using EPO at the levels common today (which seems extremely
unlikely), and it has strong performance effects, is readily
available, and is essentially undetectable when properly managed, it
seems pretty reasonable to believe that a lot of riders would use it.
Besides, these days, it's not straight EPO use that's in vogue, it's
the use of homologous blood doping with EPO microdosing to fix the
blood profile. EPO is just a bit player in that scenario, the health
risks would come more from the risks associated with the transfusion
and storage processes.
Brad Anders
Fred Flintstein
> you're right, none of them have been linked to EPO, but suppose some
> are.
>
> at what level would you say it represents a health risk 1/1000,
> 5/1000 ?
The universe of athletes taking EPO is dramatically larger
than that represented by cyclists taking EPO. For example,
if you had to do 30min of extra time in the World Cup, EPO
would make a significant difference. If it was important to
recover and do it all again in a couple of days you'd have
a pretty big incentive. Especially considering the money
involved.
Given that masters racers take EPO and there is no reason
to expect other sports to be any different I think we are
looking at denominators that are orders of magnitude larger
than what you've suggested.
Fred Flintstein
Anton Berlin
I'm 47 and would be thanking god if my girlfriend wasn't also an
agnostic non-theist.
Anton Berlin
Pathetic is a matter of perspective - friends think I have the
kavorka.
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=qZcaWmd5X9Q&feature=related
.
Betty
> The universe of athletes taking EPO is dramatically larger
> than that represented by cyclists taking EPO. For example,
> if you had to do 30min of extra time in the World Cup, EPO
> would make a significant difference. If it was important to
> recover and do it all again in a couple of days you'd have
> a pretty big incentive. Especially considering the money
> involved.
<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article396203.ece>
The normal benefits of faster recovery leading to harder training would
apply.
Fred Flintstein
> The normal benefits of faster recovery leading to harder training would
> apply.
Careful, Durex94 really has a weakness for this sort of thing.
Fred Flintstein
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbass,
You can die from drinking too much orange juice.
Can you die in your sleep from orange juice intoxication?
I doubt it, but if you are careful to moderate your
intake, the chances probably drop to zero. Arguably
the same is true for hematocrit modification - this is
one of the few places where I agree with D-y that
there is a direct conflict between athletes' health
and driving doping practices underground or into the
hands of amateurs. At least the 50% limit attempts
to serve both interests. So far as I can tell, there is
no evidence that long term EPO low or micro-dosage use
has a negative effect on athletes' post-career health.
It is probably more innocuous than steroids.
Zanoli, Jimenez and Pantani all exhibited some or
substantial symptoms of depression and for one or two
of them recreational drugs may have been contributory.
That doesn't make their deaths any less tragic, but
it does suggest that depression is significantly more
dangerous to athletes' health than is EPO.
Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
I'm happy you agree on one point <g>.
I think all three of the above had extensive "recreational" drug use;
Zanoli and Pantani also had "depression" (it's a bigger basket than
that) problems.
Zanoli apparently cut his wrist severely and blamed it on being at a
party (according to one source). Excuse me, I don't remember Jiminez
offhand.
This is a problem with the "doping" sobriquet. EPO, HGH are to the
best of my knowledge not directly psycho-active ("no buzz from
ingestion"), quite different from "rec" drugs like speed, coke, heroin
(pot belge).
Athletes-- like Rasmussen-- who hone themselves to a fine edge might
tend to have fragile psyches, related to not having a lot in reserve
physically. Not the best setup to include heavy use of "party drugs"
where the up might be fun but the down definitely is not.
--D-y
Amit Ghosh
> Dumbass,
>
> You can die from drinking too much orange juice.
>
> Can you die in your sleep from orange juice intoxication?
> I doubt it, but if you are careful to moderate your
> intake, the chances probably drop to zero. Arguably
> the same is true for hematocrit modification - this is
> one of the few places where I agree with D-y that
> there is a direct conflict between athletes' health
> and driving doping practices underground or into the
> hands of amateurs. At least the 50% limit attempts
> to serve both interests. So far as I can tell, there is
> no evidence that long term EPO low or micro-dosage use
> has a negative effect on athletes' post-career health.
> It is probably more innocuous than steroids.
>
> Zanoli, Jimenez and Pantani all exhibited some or
> substantial symptoms of depression and for one or two
> of them recreational drugs may have been contributory.
> That doesn't make their deaths any less tragic, but
> it does suggest that depression is significantly more
> dangerous to athletes' health than is EPO.
>
dumbass,
i'm not as dismissive as you.
it may seem reasonable that as long as you keep hct below some level
one avoids adverse effects, but there are a lot of unknowns.
what is the effect of maintaining a hct that is 15% higher than the
hct that one naturally developed with ? there might be structural
changes to the heart. the heart isn't a mechanical pump, it is a
growing organ and it's structure determines how it functions.
unlike orange juice, synthetic EPO is a growth hormone which mimics a
natural hormone and as such it is part of a feedback loop. how is that
feedback effected when one abuses EPO ? hormones typically (always?)
have more than one effect, does EPO effect something other than simply
the growth of red blood cells ?
athletes are also using variants like CERA or transfusions. so even if
low level EPO use is considered safe, what about the alternatives that
are also used?
it's is naive to assume that if you keep hct down it is fairly safe.
perhaps not as dangerous, but if the rate of a severe adverse reaction
is 1/1000 or 5/1000 should the sport not discourage it's use ?
what if i held races on a dangerous course, put up a big prize purse
and 1/1000 competitors died every year because of the nature of the
course ? is that an acceptable risk ?
Brad Anders
pro cycling career, I don't thing managed EPO/blood doping use (50%
hct or less) would be that big an issue. I'd worry more about rhythm
disturbances, long-term EIB effects, illiac artery issues, joint
problems, bone mass loss, etc.
As far as drugs go, I'd be more worried about long-term use of
anabolic steroids, HCG, and HGH.
Brad Anders
Frederick the Great
<1c4ffac7-c021-42c6...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Amit Ghosh <amit....@gmail.com> wrote:
This is why an athlete should put on retainer
the very best medical advisors.
--
Old Fritz
H. Fred Kveck
Amit Ghosh <amit....@gmail.com> wrote:
> what if i held races on a dangerous course, put up a big prize purse
> and 1/1000 competitors died every year because of the nature of the
> course ? is that an acceptable risk ?
That sounds like the Isle of Man TT, except for the "big prize purse" part.
Between '07 and '09, 227 riders have died. Yet, every year, they show up in droves to
ride and race. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.racing/msg/c24ee82be0692337
H. Fred Kveck
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
> I think all three of the above had extensive "recreational" drug use;
> Zanoli and Pantani also had "depression" (it's a bigger basket than
> that) problems.
I don't recall Jimenez ever having any association with recreational drugs, unlike
Pantani and Zanoli. I do recall hearing several times before he had to get help that
he had serious depression. Once he was being treated at the clinic, it was pretty
obvious just how serious his depression was.
B. Lafferty
My recollection is that Jimenez was into cocaine and that cocaine was
found in his room at the time of his death.
Amit Ghosh
> In the long list of potential negative effects on longevity due to a
> pro cycling career, I don't thing managed EPO/blood doping use (50%
> hct or less) would be that big an issue. I'd worry more about rhythm
> disturbances, long-term EIB effects, illiac artery issues, joint
> problems, bone mass loss, etc.
>
dumbass,
so what you're saying is: though you know more about the heart than i
do you also don't know what the risks are.
Brad Anders
You're right, I don't know what the risks are, if any. I don't even
know if I know more about the heart than you do.
Brad Anders
A. Dumas
That was Pantani. I can't believe you mixed that up. Jimenez was a party
man and apparently took plenty of stuff in night clubs but his death was
not linked to drugs.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
What if you had no evidence that the course is dangerous?
Indeed I was dismissive, and I have no evidence that
long term EPO use or microdosage is safe. But there
are a lot of claims that it isn't, and they're backed up
by zero evidence that I can see. At best they cite a
few cases of people who may have died from heart
failure from excessively high EPO doses (in the early
cases of the Dutch amateurs, I thought this is widely
accepted to be EPO-related). But as you know, the
question of whether a few high doses can kill you tells
us essentially nothing about whether small long term
doses do any lasting damage. I see a lot of hyperbole
with nothing to back it up.
None of this makes me happy about the idea or fact that
cyclists and other athletes have to alter their body
chemistry to be competitive. It's distasteful. However,
it's more repugnant the way that ghouls come out to
self-righteously gloat about doping whenever a rider
has a health problem. I also don't think bringing up
Zanoli, Jimenez or Pantani helps the case.
It's like saying chess is bad for you because look how
Bobby Fischer turned out. In fact, maybe too great a
focus on chess _is_ bad for the Bobby Fischers of the
world, but perhaps the lesson I draw from Fischer or
Pantani is that if you had a choice between mental health
and depression or paranoia, mental health is better.
Freudmaster Ben
--D-y
wrote:
> In article <30fa0f1b-114e-4f79-9bce-cdf274a3f...@y4g2000yqy.googlegroups.com>,
>
> --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > I think all three of the above had extensive "recreational" drug use;
> > Zanoli and Pantani also had "depression" (it's a bigger basket than
> > that) problems.
>
> I don't recall Jimenez ever having any association with recreational drugs, unlike
> Pantani and Zanoli. I do recall hearing several times before he had to get help that
> he had serious depression. Once he was being treated at the clinic, it was pretty
> obvious just how serious his depression was.
Jiminez, "rec" drug use:
<http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/cycling-jimenezs-death-
from-heart-failure-stuns-spain-575912.html>
A look at the positive side:
<http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/features.php?id=features/2003/jimenez>
Lest the good part be forgot.
Again, there's "dope" and then there's "doping".
--D-y
Henry
32
live fast, die pretty