Re: Christmas: Why Linux is Better for Music (Ghost of Flatfish Past)
Erin Mungan
ahls...@launchmodem.com says...
>
> Hadron pulled this Usenet boner:
>
> > Peter K??hlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> writes:
> >
> > <noisome "Hadronic" nonsense snipped>
> >
> >> I rather program all new stuff in Qt C++ directly
> >
> > Sure you do. With or without null pointer dereferencing? You are not and
> > never were a programmer. The cat is out of the bag ...
>
> Idiot.
If you Linux zealots are trying to compare your free software to
commercial programs like Nuendo, you are out of your collective minds.
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Steinberg-Nuendo-4-
Advanced-Audio-and-Post-Production-System?sku=703099
Nuendo is $1799.99 BTW, not $5000.00 like you Linux morons claim and it
is worth every penny.
Try running a commercial studio and telling your clients you use Linux.
Those clients will now become ex-clients.
However, you will get to hear their laughter at the other end of the
phone call before they hang up on you.
Linux is great for some applications, servers for example, or embedded
devices like cell phones as another example.
That being said, Linux shouold stay as far away from professional audio
as possible.
Why?
Because Linux hasn't even entered the 1990's let alone the 2000's.
The proof is in the actual useage.
I can't reacll a single professional, commercial, studio that is using
Linux exclusively.
So why not explain why the professional community would not flock to a
free alternative to Nuendo or Protools?
The answer is Linux sucks for this type of application.
Either fix it or shut up because you only look foolish trying to compare
your free garbage-ware to commercial offerings that are used every day
to make the music you listen to.
Chris Ahlstrom
> In article <hgjppr$jj0$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> ahls...@launchmodem.com says...
>>
>> Hadron pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>> > Peter K??hlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> writes:
>> >
>> > <noisome "Hadronic" nonsense snipped>
>> >
>> >> I rather program all new stuff in Qt C++ directly
>> >
>> > Sure you do. With or without null pointer dereferencing? You are not and
>> > never were a programmer. The cat is out of the bag ...
>>
>> Idiot.
>
> If you Linux zealots are trying to compare your free software to
> commercial programs like Nuendo, you are out of your collective minds.
>
> http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Steinberg-Nuendo-4-
> Advanced-Audio-and-Post-Production-System?sku=703099
>
> Nuendo is $1799.99 BTW, not $5000.00 like you Linux morons claim and it
> is worth every penny.
Hey flatfish, wrong thread. Nothing about professional audio in Hadron and
Peter's little set-to.
I left the cross-post in so that rec.audio.pro will be forewarned should
someone succumb to your silly "wasp and spider in a jar" troll.
--
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits:
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
-- Mark Twain
High Plains Thumper
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:42:46 -0500
Message-ID: <MPG.25973cf8c...@news.eternal-september.org>
Hmmmm .... crossposted to rec.audio.pro, seems to be another Flatfish
post .... May be he'll lie again about an advocate mimicking him at
alt.comp.linux-sucks ...
Yup, it's Flatfish, as shown in this other post as Erin Mungan:
[quote]
Twas the night before Christmas and all through the house, not a
creature was stirring, not Schestowitz the louse.
The SPAM was queued up in the pipeline with glee in the hope that
some web hits Roy would soon see.
[/quote]
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/54c30a81acccd925
> ahlstromc says...
>> Hadron pulled:
>>> Peter Köhlmann writes:
>>>
>>> <noisome "Hadronic" nonsense snipped>
>>>
>>>> I rather program all new stuff in Qt C++ directly
>>>
>>> Sure you do. With or without null pointer dereferencing? You are
>>> not and never were a programmer. The cat is out of the bag ...
>>
>> Idiot.
>
> If you Linux zealots are trying to compare your free software to
> commercial programs like Nuendo, you are out of your collective
> minds.
Typical Flatfish ad hominem attack, use of "Linux zealots", emphasis on
"free" as though Linux users never buy commercial software, which is a
lie.
> http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Steinberg-Nuendo-4-
> Advanced-Audio-and-Post-Production-System?sku=703099
>
> Nuendo is $1799.99 BTW, not $5000.00 like you Linux morons claim and
> it is worth every penny.
Also shifting the goal posts. Post was 2 years ago, Nuendo 3 was
$2,500, Cubase was $1,000, not to include supporting hardware. Another
Flatfish lie.
> Try running a commercial studio and telling your clients you use
> Linux. Those clients will now become ex-clients. However, you will
> get to hear their laughter at the other end of the phone call before
> they hang up on you.
This is another lie. Results are more important. So I show up at the
recording studio with a venerable all lacquer gone and dented King bari
sax instead of a brand new Selmer or Yamaha professional model sax. So
that makes me more professional? No, its the sound, style and
technique, baby.
And so with the audio equipment. Results are more important. And
what was very stupid about the original post 2 years ago, was the
emphasis that because the OP spent buku dineros on software would make
him a produce results, because he was too intolerant and ignorant to
properly set up the environment AND FOLLOW PRUDENT ADVICE in set up.
> Linux is great for some applications, servers for example, or
> embedded devices like cell phones as another example.
More FUD ala Flatfish style.
> That being said, Linux shouold stay as far away from professional
> audio as possible. Why? Because Linux hasn't even entered the 1990's
> let alone the 2000's.
No, because Flatfish is too incompetent to set up a studio to begin with.
<SNIP rest of the troll's idiocy>
--
HPT
Erin Mungan
ahls...@launchmodem.com says...
>
> Erin Mungan pulled this Usenet boner:
>
> > In article <hgjppr$jj0$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > ahls...@launchmodem.com says...
> >>
> >> Hadron pulled this Usenet boner:
> >>
> >> > Peter K??hlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> writes:
> >> >
> >> > <noisome "Hadronic" nonsense snipped>
> >> >
> >> >> I rather program all new stuff in Qt C++ directly
> >> >
> >> > Sure you do. With or without null pointer dereferencing? You are not and
> >> > never were a programmer. The cat is out of the bag ...
> >>
> >> Idiot.
> >
> > If you Linux zealots are trying to compare your free software to
> > commercial programs like Nuendo, you are out of your collective minds.
> >
> > http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Steinberg-Nuendo-4-
> > Advanced-Audio-and-Post-Production-System?sku=703099
> >
> > Nuendo is $1799.99 BTW, not $5000.00 like you Linux morons claim and it
> > is worth every penny.
>
> Hey flatfish, wrong thread. Nothing about professional audio in Hadron and
> Peter's little set-to.
>
> I left the cross-post in so that rec.audio.pro will be forewarned should
> someone succumb to your silly "wasp and spider in a jar" troll.
Why not try actually reading the OP instead of sticking your head up
Roy's ass....
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/745be977e32dca
93?hl=en
We are now entering into the holiday of cheer. Linux has shown itself
to be a worthy operating system for many mission critical server and
stable desktop environment tasks. Music is an area Linux shines.
With humour regarding a COLA troll, who seemed to have lost its way. I
am glad I don't need $5,000 US to front a home music studio.
[quote]
Singer [Flatfish] wrote:
> philicorda wrote:
>> Singer [Flatfish] wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Linux is a good solution for some things, making music isn't one
>>> of them.
>> Have you tried any of the music software on Linux?
> Yes I have. It took me 3 days just to get Jack running without Xruns
> on a Delta 1010.
> Then there was Ardour crashing intermittantly on a save.
http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=1865#bugnotes
[quote]
ID: 0001865 [ardour] bugs crash always 09-11-07 14:23
Reporter sebos69
Assigned To paul
Priority normal Resolution fixed
Status resolved
Product Version 2.0
Summary 0001865: ardour crashes when loading session
Description With ardour 2.05 SVN
when I try to re-open a saved session, ardour crashes without any
message (only "segmentation fault"
I join the saved session, this is the only information I have....
[/quote]
[quote]
Notes (0004354) sebos69 09-11-07 18:44
Nevermind, the crash disappeared after an upgrade... you can delete the
bug. Sorry for the noise
[/quote]
> Of course that was after realizing I had to run all these things as
> root to get priority.
http://ardour.org/system_requirements
[quote]
It is not possible for regular users on a normal Linux system to get
solid realtime performance, and so to avoid having to run all your audio
software as root (a very bad idea), there is a second kernel patch that
is very desirable. This is the "capabilities" patch. Its very small, but
it allows ordinary users to gain access to the powerful real-time
scheduling policies and memory locking of the Linux kernel.
[/quote]
> Then I was getting sample mismatch and "device already in use"
> messages which is where I discovered that there is a difference
> between "Default" and Hw0:0, despite Hw0:0 BEING default or something
> like that. Then of course I learned that arts is not really the same
> as artsd or whatever the server version is called. I don't remember,
> but I had to kill some sound process to get Jack to even run.
> Linux has way too many sound drivers, just like Linux has way to many
> versions.
Oh, really?
> All it does is confuse things for the user. I never did get it to run
> in realtime mode.
> And like I said the interface with Ardour is terrible. Rosegarden
> isn't too bad but it's no Cubase. And what about the list of plugins
> I listed, like Ivory or control surfaces and firewire interfaces?
Current version of Cubase full is $1,000 US.
> I gave up on Linux and audio after screwing with it for about 5 days.
> Why bother? Like the typical Linux application you'll spend all your
> time screwing around trying to make it work instead of actually using
> it.
> I installed Nuendo in 10 minutes and was up and running. Linux is at
> least 10 years behind the other platforms when it comes to music and
> audio and until the powers that control Linux's destiny decide to
> settle on one sound system, it will remain that way.
Nuendo 3 is $2,500 US.
I have a couple comments.
Pricey proprietary applications will always have nice features in them.
This is expected, the provider does this to meet needs and is warranted
to be compensated for them.
However, pricey products does not a professional make.
Linux available tools mentioned above along with other Linux
applications meet niches, have professional developers and sponsors.
Some of it is provided as a labour of love.
In some ways it may miss some "spit and polish". However, they can be
made to work, require a little more work, but IMHO, once one has gotten
them up and running, can accomplish significant work.
Example, to create professional results, a photographer on a budget can
make do with a Yashica FX3 manual SLR, selectively purchased cost
effective lenses, high powered budget minded flashes (Vivitar 285), home
made PVC flash stands, aluminised home builder's foam board for
reflectors, etc. (BTDT). He doesn't need 5K quid worth of equipment.
Another example, a musician does not need a professional model Yamaha
saxophone costing $5K US to produce professional results. Yes, that sax
will have slightly smoother action, perhaps a little better intonation
(in tune) through its range and a slightly better tone indistinquishable
to the average listener).
I've played Buffet pro clarinets from the '70s that did not play in
tune. I had to play them in tune. First clarinet that played in tune
was a Selmer Bundy beginner model plastic clarinet of the '80s.
Expensive equipment does not a professional make.
Not all of us have the financial resources to purchase high end hardware
and software applications. That will not stop us from producing high
quality results.
If you do not have the patience to select the appropriate operating
system or patches for real time work, spending a little time in setting
up the environment, making use of the different available tools to
accomplish same result and imagination, by all means, invest $5,000 US
into your home studio.
For the rest of us who work and do this as a hobby, or even professional
who have a niche to meet and budget to manage, we will make these cost
effective tools and applications work. We don't need an investment
portfolio to fund our projects.
[/quote]
27 Sep 2007
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/f8ff83eaf9d...
--
HPT
Hey, if your asshole poster HPT wants to compare Nuendo with his free
Linux alternatives, then it is open season.
He is scrambling already, twitching and frothing.
Yea it's real easy foisting the Linux DAW solutions on amateaurs who
don't know any better and are probably Linux zealots to begin with.
Let's see what happens when you try and foist the same Linux crap on
professionals.
Are you up to it?
I am....
Let's see what professionals think of Linux vs Nuendo......
That's why rec.audio.pro was left in....
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> In article <hgjppr$jj0$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> ahls...@launchmodem.com says...
>>
>> Hadron pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>> > Peter K??hlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> writes:
>> >
>> > <noisome "Hadronic" nonsense snipped>
>> >
>> >> I rather program all new stuff in Qt C++ directly
>> >
>> > Sure you do. With or without null pointer dereferencing? You are not and
>> > never were a programmer. The cat is out of the bag ...
>>
>> Idiot.
>
> If you Linux zealots are trying to compare your free software to
> commercial programs like Nuendo, you are out of your collective minds.
>
> http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Steinberg-Nuendo-4-
> Advanced-Audio-and-Post-Production-System?sku=703099
>
> Nuendo is $1799.99 BTW, not $5000.00 like you Linux morons claim and it
> is worth every penny.
...that still puts it into the 0.00001% userbase and "so what" category.
[deletia]
--
If some college kid can replicate your "invention" without seeing |||
any of the details of your patent then you have been granted a patent / | \
on the "idea" and not the actual implementation.
Keoki
guess the post refers to a situation similar to what I ran into, a Mac/
PC veteran musician checking Linux out for music apps unique to it:
Beast, Ounk, Rosegarden, Blue, PD, AlgoScore, Strasheela, Waon,
GranuLab...
There is gold in them Linux hills, but getting to will be still a
challenge. I chronicled my attempts on LinuxForums.org; ("Adventures
in Linux MIDI" thread) - 18 of 20 distros I tried had issues with JACK
from the outset. In private emails I was told I should pursue the
issue deeper, get under the apps' hood to get things working. How a
musician would do that, I'm not sure. So I floated a suggestion to
those experts, let's take on one of the nice music distros then (e.g.
Open Artist) fix the dozen or so found issues together and do a
"making Open Artist work on your computer" sort of thread / manual
about the process to document it for mere mortals.
Something in my suggestion triggered such a major reaction, there were
no further emails... :-)
> In article <hgk0tp$gd...@news.eternal-september.org>,
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> Without going into qualifying the words "crap" and "professionals", I
> guess the post refers to a situation similar to what I ran into, a Mac/
> PC veteran musician checking Linux out for music apps unique to it:
> Beast, Ounk, Rosegarden, Blue, PD, AlgoScore, Strasheela, Waon,
> GranuLab...
>
> There is gold in them Linux hills, but getting to will be still a
> challenge. I chronicled my attempts on LinuxForums.org; ("Adventures
> in Linux MIDI" thread) - 18 of 20 distros I tried had issues with JACK
> from the outset. In private emails I was told I should pursue the
> issue deeper, get under the apps' hood to get things working. How a
> musician would do that, I'm not sure. So I floated a suggestion to
...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
Musicians aren't stupid. They certainly aren't stupid when it comes
to their own profession and the related tools.
[deletia]
Some wannabe Garage Band user may have no chops but that's a different
kettle of fish.
--
...as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
|||
/ | \
Keoki
> ...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
> musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
> with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
I'm not aware of any seminal synth album (Wendy Carlos? Vangelis? Jean
Michel Jarre?) created by hacking synths to death. Nor did Chopin,
Gershwin or Rachmaninoff hack the piano to death. (Although the latter
came pretty close to it by his playing :-) Yes, you can find a group
of people hacking anything to death, from toasters to musical
instruments. For some reason, history shows us no correlation to the
group who accomplished musical works of lasting merit.
"Musicians are not stupid?" Some are, some aren't. Just like people
who love to hack things or major composers, or nuns, soup lovers. It's
an unrelated factor.
JEDIDIAH
>
>> ...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
>> musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
>> with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
>
> I'm not aware of any seminal synth album (Wendy Carlos? Vangelis? Jean
> Michel Jarre?) created by hacking synths to death. Nor did Chopin,
Your pet composers never experimented with tech therefore none of them did?
You're not a musician by any chance.
Artists may be "smart" when it comes to their own speciality but they can
be dumb as bricks when it comes to anything else.
--
The best OS in the world is ultimately useless |||
if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates. / | \
philicorda
> Without going into qualifying the words "crap" and "professionals", I
> guess the post refers to a situation similar to what I ran into, a Mac/
> PC veteran musician checking Linux out for music apps unique to it:
> Beast, Ounk, Rosegarden, Blue, PD, AlgoScore, Strasheela, Waon,
> GranuLab...
>
> There is gold in them Linux hills, but getting to will be still a
> challenge. I chronicled my attempts on LinuxForums.org; ("Adventures in
> Linux MIDI" thread) - 18 of 20 distros I tried had issues with JACK from
> the outset. In private emails I was told I should pursue the issue
> deeper, get under the apps' hood to get things working. How a musician
> would do that, I'm not sure.
Hey, I resemble that remark. I don't know who else you contacted after
emailing me, but that is not representative of what I wrote, which was:
"I can tell you what my troubleshooting advice will be already though:
1) Make sure the downloaded 'Open Artist' ISO has the correct MD5 sum,
and verify the burnt DVD.
2) Make sure the buffer size, sample rate and period size is correct in
QJackcontrol, and that jack is running in real time mode.
3) If necessary, select the real time kernel on bootup.
I would not want to go much deeper than that because:
1 You should not have to. If whoever wrote the distro messed something
up enough to require extensive de-bugging just to get started, and the
problem is not something particular to your computer hardware, then it
might be best to move on."
Essentially I told you check the install DVD is good and check the
soundcard settings.
That is not too dissimilar to the advice I'd give to someone on a fresh
install Windows/OSX. Ie, if you get soundcard problems, check the buffer
size. Particularly with a built in motherboard soundchip like the ALC883.
The error message screenshots in your review also indicated a problem
with the soundcard buffer size, so it seems a logical thing to do.
I'd like to know how many of those 18 broken distros would work after
doing that. (I'm not being sarcastic, I would actually like to know.)
Daniel Gawade
Seriously I see absolutely no reason (pun intended) to use Linux for any
serious audio production work and I can't figure out why these threads keep
going on and on. The bottom line always ends up being musicians and audio
engineer types, the kind that make music, not 200 speaker simulation
devices, have troubles with Linux and audio production.
Sure you can spend all your waking hours trying to get ardour, jack, jill
and the rest of the gang that's lost on the hill, working or like I said you
can download Reaper and be up and running in less than a minute. If you use
it for small time work, pay the $60.00 and be done with it. How much is all
that time you wasted trying to make Linux work worth?
Linux is great for some things, Android phones for one, but music production
isn't one of them and while exceptions exist they are very rare. Some people
are still using BEOS, OS/2 and other dinosaur systems and always hoping that
someday their chosen messiah will rise from the bit bucket. Whatever floats
your canoe.
"philicorda" <phili...@NOOSSPPPAAMMM.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hD91n.13196$OJ6....@newsfe26.ams2...
Chris Ahlstrom
> On Jan 6, 11:17?am, JEDIDIAH <j...@nomad.mishnet> wrote:
>
>> ...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
>> musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
>> with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
>
> I'm not aware of any seminal synth album (Wendy Carlos? Vangelis? Jean
> Michel Jarre?) created by hacking synths to death.
Indeed, you are not aware.
I suppose you also think Keith Emerson had somebody set up all those
oscillators and ring modulators for him, too.
And Larry Fast never hacked PAIA gear to create new sounds.
Or Walter Sear, or Zajda.
Morton Subotnik never spent hours coaxing sounds out of a Bukla synthesizer,
or cutting and splicing endless sections of tape to make "The Wild Bull".
> "Musicians are not stupid?" Some are, some aren't. Just like people
> who love to hack things or major composers, or nuns, soup lovers. It's
> an unrelated factor.
I liked DJ Keoki's (sp?) mix he did with the Speed Racer Porn mix.
Yeah, he never hacked anything, either.
Anyway, you're nuts. The musician's on the leading edges have almost always
had a superb technical mastery of the *guts* of their instruments and a
great interest in musical technology.
--
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would
be a merrier world.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
Chris Ahlstrom
> Or he could download Reaper, install it and be running in 60 seconds.
> Seriously I see absolutely no reason (pun intended) to use Linux for any
> serious audio production work and I can't figure out why these threads keep
> going on and on. The bottom line always ends up being musicians and audio
> engineer types, the kind that make music, not 200 speaker simulation
> devices, have troubles with Linux and audio production.
> Sure you can spend all your waking hours trying to get ardour, jack, jill
> and the rest of the gang that's lost on the hill, working or like I said you
> can download Reaper and be up and running in less than a minute. If you use
> it for small time work, pay the $60.00 and be done with it. How much is all
> that time you wasted trying to make Linux work worth?
> Linux is great for some things, Android phones for one, but music production
> isn't one of them and while exceptions exist they are very rare. Some people
> are still using BEOS, OS/2 and other dinosaur systems and always hoping that
> someday their chosen messiah will rise from the bit bucket. Whatever floats
> your canoe.
Just shaddap and play yer guitar.
I no longer deal with computer music much these days, but the software and
audio systems on Linux, however they compare to such systems on Windows
these days, are orders of magnitude faster and more powerul than the stuff
we used to use on Ataris and PCs. And, just like any platform, sometimes
you have issues to fix.
If someone wants to use Linux to do serious audio work, who are you to tell
them there's no reason to?
--
They have been at a great feast of languages, and stolen the scraps.
-- William Shakespeare, "Love's Labour's Lost"
Daniel Gawade
"Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
news:hi3b6u$cep$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
I don't play the guitar.
> I no longer deal with computer music much these days
Then you really have nothing worthwhile to say about the subject do you?
> If someone wants to use Linux to do serious audio work, who are you to
> tell
> them there's no reason to?
I'm not, which is why I ended with "whatever floats your canoe".
Learn to read the message in it's entirety before opening your trap and
making an ass of yourself.
Daniel Gawade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggFzkyd288
I would hate to have been his keyboard technician :)
"Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
news:hi3ap6$cep$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
Richard Crowley
> If someone wants to use Linux to do serious audio work,
> who are you to tell them there's no reason to?
We would have to find them first.
Seems unlikely that there are ANY people doing serious audio
production (regular tracking, editing, in a for-profit operation.)
on ordinary Linux systems (ie not embedded in a product).
Chris Ahlstrom
Actually, I think I'm the reasonable one here.
--
Are you ever going to do the dishes? Or will you change your major to biology?
Laurence Payne
wrote:
>...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
>musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
>with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
Maybe a few did. I remember the quote from an engineer at Sequential
Circuits (who made the Prophet 5) that most units returned for service
still had the factory patches installed.
Chris Ahlstrom
> Keith Emerson you say? You will love this classic clip.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggFzkyd288
>
> I would hate to have been his keyboard technician :)
He sure made that keyboard scream!
Regrettably, he was in Chicago a few decades ago and I never managed to get
to that concert.
--
You may worry about your hair-do today, but tomorrow much peanut butter will
be sold.
Keoki
> The musician's on the leading edges have almost always
> had a superb technical mastery of the *guts* of their instruments and a
> great interest in musical technology.
Mastery of the instrument's *playing*, absolutely, it's a hallmark of
most great composers.
Hacking the instruments internals to death, as the original poster
described it - there's no correlation between people doing that and
achieving any famous musical work. Someone might even argue that
hacking an instrument's (or OS's) internals equals time not spent on
mastery of the instrument's actual playing, and is thus a negative
factor. I don't have a position on that. But the gist of our
difference falls as well to what we define as "famous". My definition
of "famous" begins at guys like Gershwin or Vangelis. You highlighted
Morton Subotnick. I did a quick listen on Amazon; with all due respect
I don't think Gershwin and Subotnick (or your other nominees) are
quite in the same category. I might be wrong. Let's wait and see which
one the public remembers in 50 years.
Daniel Gawade
> Actually, I think I'm the reasonable one here.
Not really, but maybe we both got off on the wrong foot. My point is that
Linux just is not ready to start replacing programs like Protools, Nuendo,
Samplitude, Sonar and so forth in professional studios and the main reason
is because the people who have to use these programs have a difficult time
making them work.
You would be hard pressed to find a more attentive audience than musicians
especially when the "Free word" is mentioned. We all want free or low cost
solutions that we can create with and musicians tend to be at the low end of
the monetary food chain, in general.
The problem is, Linux just can't compare to even low cost alternatives for
the Mac or Windows. Yes, you will find the developers of these programs
making all kinds of comments about the power of these Linux programs, and
they are correct but it all becomes a moot point when even the basic pro
level hardware and plugins are not supported.
You are not going to find a musician who is running Waves plugins playing
around with the LADSPA plugins because he decides to use Linux.
What it boils down to is really what is the advantage of Linux?
What real world advantage does Linux and Linux audio programs give me over
Mac or Windows?
Forget about having the source code. I wouldn't know what to do with it.
Free?
Ok, that's one that wets my whistle, but exactly what am I getting for free?
I can get Audacity for Windows for free as well.
I can get MuLab or Reaper or any number of other programs for free or very
low cost.
Assuming I run a Linux audio targeted distribution like 64studio, that means
I have to run 2 separate systems. One for my general work and one for audio.
How is that superior?
See where I am going with this?
As a musician I am pounding on the Linux door, but when the wench answers
and hands me a fist full of Linux DVD's to try, I just don't have the time
to re-invent the wheel just to have it not be round anymore.
owl
JEDIDIAH
Some did, some didn't, still others took sledge hammers to them.
--
"Microsoft looks at new ideas, they don't evaluate whether
the idea will move the industry forward, they ask, |||
'how will it help us sell more copies of Windows?'" / | \
-- Bill Gates
Daniel Gawade
news:sofada...@rooftop.invalid...
> Music died about 10-15 years ago anyway.
A lot of people and musicians will agree with you. I certainly do but with a
qualification.
The good music is not, for the most part in the mainstream media.
It's in your local clubs, college radio stations etc.
You would be amazed how much raw talent is out there and by the same token
you will probably never hear it because these people may not be marketable.
from the perspective of the suits.
Think Susan Boyle.
I recently drove from CT to FL in a Hertz rental and after about 5 hours of
trying to listen to mainstream radio I called them up and asked them to turn
on the Sirrius option. I found out it was on all the time, silly me, but the
point is music really does suck these days.
An affordable project studio has been a 2 edged sword.
On one hand it has allowed people to create, record, master and produce
their own works which would have required a truckload of gear back in the
70's.
On the other hand, it has allowed people to create, record, master and
produce their own works which would have required a truckload of gear back
in the 70's.
Whenever this discussion comes up I ask people where the 5-10 hit albums
are?
Carol King Tapestry.
Boston.
Fleetwood Mac Rumours (yea I remember Tusk too ).
AeroSmith Toys in the Attic
ELP
Kenny Loggins
Chicago
The 5th Dimension
The Tops
Jackson 5
EWF
Where are groups of this caliber?
People who could actually sing and/or play real time?
Sit Carol King down at a piano in your living room and guess what?
You have her albums.
Oh, yea she actually did that one already.
What we have today is a huge collection of no talent cut and paste musicians
who couldn't hold a tune in a basket if Auto Tune were not connected to it
via an umbilical cord.
Sad but true and I don't blame kids when they pirate music.
Who the hell wants to spend $18.99 on a CD that has one, maybe 2 "hits" on
it.
A waste of money.
AZ Nomad
vanished from the airwaves.
Jazz is doing ok as long as you ignore smooth jazz crap.
Daniel Gawade
"AZ Nomad" <azno...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote in message
> It depends on the genre. Rock certainly died 1/1/1980 as the instrumental
> solo
> vanished from the airwaves.
>
> Jazz is doing ok as long as you ignore smooth jazz crap.
Rock, pop, Top 40 and AOR died.
Some of the smooth jazz stuff isn't too bad, David Benoit for example.
Most is like elevator music though.
P.S. AOR = Album Oriented Rock for you young stuff....
owl
If you're talking about totally instrumental songs, yeah. But the
guitar solo actually reached its peak in the 80's. The music in general
was crap, but the guitar work, taken in isolation, was phenomenal.
I prefer late 60's early 70's rock, but I have to acknowledge the
guitar talent from the 80's. That's the heyday of neo-classical metal,
which is where you find some of the greatest guitarists of all time.
I disagree with 1/1/1980 for the death of rock in general.
For example, 13 years later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3FTiWRXF8
> Jazz is doing ok as long as you ignore smooth jazz crap.
Jazz never did anything for me.
Richard Crowley
> Jazz never did anything for me.
Rock never did anything for me.
Kadaitcha Man
> Rock never did anything for me.
You've repeated that ad infinitum since a big one landed on your head.
--
Test signature
owl
> "owl" <o...@rooftop.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sofada...@rooftop.invalid...
>> Music died about 10-15 years ago anyway.
>
> A lot of people and musicians will agree with you. I certainly do but with a
> qualification.
> The good music is not, for the most part in the mainstream media.
> It's in your local clubs, college radio stations etc.
>
> You would be amazed how much raw talent is out there and by the same token
> you will probably never hear it because these people may not be marketable.
> from the perspective of the suits.
>
> Think Susan Boyle.
>
Interesting character. Good voice. But I prefer total-package types
who actually create write their own music/lyrics. Susan Boyle is just
a singer of other people's songs, as far as I know.
> I recently drove from CT to FL in a Hertz rental and after about 5 hours of
> trying to listen to mainstream radio I called them up and asked them to turn
> on the Sirrius option. I found out it was on all the time, silly me, but the
> point is music really does suck these days.
>
I had a trial of XM on a new car I bought a couple years ago. I let it
expire. To much top-40 rotation in those genre stations. I usually
ended up listening to that fast tempo noisy modern stuff, I forget
what it's called, but I think it's for raves or whatever they call
parties these days. But I got bored with that because all the songs
sound the same.
> An affordable project studio has been a 2 edged sword.
> On one hand it has allowed people to create, record, master and produce
> their own works which would have required a truckload of gear back in the
> 70's.
>
> On the other hand, it has allowed people to create, record, master and
> produce their own works which would have required a truckload of gear back
> in the 70's.
>
> Whenever this discussion comes up I ask people where the 5-10 hit albums
> are?
> Carol King Tapestry.
> Boston.
> Fleetwood Mac Rumours (yea I remember Tusk too ).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Greatest band of all time IMHO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJyzijG0I0k
> AeroSmith Toys in the Attic
> ELP
> Kenny Loggins
> Chicago
> The 5th Dimension
> The Tops
> Jackson 5
> EWF
>
> Where are groups of this caliber?
> People who could actually sing and/or play real time?
>
That's what I want to know. Where is all the talent today?
I'm too old to go out clubbing to find unpromoted bands.
Where are the industry talent scouts? Are there any left?
Somebody needs to summon Colonel Parker's ghost and get something
going, because NOTHING IS HAPPENING. MUSIC SUCKS.
> Sit Carol King down at a piano in your living room and guess what?
> You have her albums.
> Oh, yea she actually did that one already.
>
> What we have today is a huge collection of no talent cut and paste musicians
> who couldn't hold a tune in a basket if Auto Tune were not connected to it
> via an umbilical cord.
>
> Sad but true and I don't blame kids when they pirate music.
> Who the hell wants to spend $18.99 on a CD that has one, maybe 2 "hits" on
> it.
> A waste of money.
>
I really don't think they even know what good music is. I jammed with
this twenty-something guitarist recently, and I showed him some truly
great examples of older guitar-oriented music, and he just had this blank
look on his face the whole time. I mean, how can *any* guitarist listen
to Buck Dharma solo and not be totally stoked?
GreyCloud
Heck, I still can't get any DVD player to work on Linux even using Suns
VirtualBox software. Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it
works, there are areas that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and
just plain hard to get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose
chase. Which means you will probably give up and go elsewhere.
The Linux community needs to solve these problems about playback of
commercial DVDs, the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click
download and install solution, etc. The docs also need to be worked
over very carefully for accuracy and clarity and put into a central
indexed document.
The complexity is huge, and one doesn't need to pull his hair out
looking all over the world for a scrap of information relating to a problem.
Right now, no operating system is close to being this way.
Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
installing new software. I can go to the depths of technical
complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for windows
as well. I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as I was a
Linux advocate in the past, but the main problem of 'Average User' of
acquiring software and installing still exists. I've used Solaris and
many versions of linux, but only windows and OS X makes it easy. The
downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And some
of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've yet
to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
Kadaitcha Man
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Daniel Gawade <0hdann...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Think Susan Boyle.
> Interesting character. Good voice. But I prefer total-package types
> who actually create write their own music/lyrics. Susan Boyle is just a
> singer of other people's songs, as far as I know.
Said the self-appointed music critic who probably sings like a cat's
choir, dogs only.
--
Test signature
GreyCloud
That seems to place you possibly in the 60s age bracket. Yes?
> Where are groups of this caliber?
Hehehe... none that I know of. Nothing earth shattering these days.
> People who could actually sing and/or play real time?
>
Far and few between.
> Sit Carol King down at a piano in your living room and guess what?
> You have her albums.
> Oh, yea she actually did that one already.
My wife loves her music because she can sing in her range as well.
>
> What we have today is a huge collection of no talent cut and paste
> musicians who couldn't hold a tune in a basket if Auto Tune were not
> connected to it via an umbilical cord.
>
Actually, the only ones left are the new Country Western musicians.
They seem to be making a big success lately, and I'm not a fan of that
stuff, but lately is sounding pretty good as things are changing.
> Sad but true and I don't blame kids when they pirate music.
> Who the hell wants to spend $18.99 on a CD that has one, maybe 2 "hits"
> on it.
> A waste of money.
>
I know. :-(
If the music is tops, I pay for it.
GreyCloud
Not really. The top heavy metal guitarist plays a lot of solo parts.
Of course I may very well be mistaken on what you mean by instrumental
solos.
Kadaitcha Man
> I like the philosophy of Linux and how it
> works, there are areas that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and
> just plain hard to get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose
> chase. Which means you will probably give up and go elsewhere. The
> Linux community needs to solve these problems
Nah. The smart ones set themselves up as founders of open source
organisations, con tens of thousands of developers to contribute their
time and skills for no pay and little to almost no recognition, then they
sell up to commercial interests for hundreds of millions of dollars,
billions in some recent cases.
What's left apart from some cash-flushed former open source organisation
directors and tens of thousands of really pissed-off developers?
That, as I also stated more than a decade ago, is the problem that the
Linux community needs to solve. Even fucking Blind Freddy could have seen
it coming. Only a fucking nuttard would donate their time and convince
themselves that it was "free".
Of course, the real irony is this:
The tens of thousands of really pissed-off developers who donated their
time "free", have realised that their time was not, by any stretch of the
imagination, actually free; indeed it amounted to hundreds of millions of
dollars, and sometimes billions of dollars of value. For if it were free,
the now cash-flushed former open source organisation directors would have
pointed to the GPL and said, "Hey, we don't want your stinking money.
It's all free anyway! See...?"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You'd have to be a complete and utter fucking
nutter to get sucked in by the "free, as in speech" bullshit line.
It ain't free. It can't be free; because the commercial world has put a
dollar value on it.
So much for open source, hey.
--
Test signature
owl
... except honor you with a song in your name, including a great solo by
one of the gods of guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdstwaxhcU
When Jazz ever starts to get the whole emotion thing, let me know.
Classical gets it. Rock gets it. Even Pop gets it. What happened
with Jazz?
Now's the time for Jazz if ever there will be a time. All other genres
are producing crap at the moment. Jazz can run unopposed. But I predict
fail. Even if Jazz is all there is on the radio, people will cover
their ears and scream for somebody to turn it off.
owl
Thanks a lot for bringing *cats* into this. NOT.
Don Pearce
wrote:
>If you're talking about totally instrumental songs, yeah. But the
>guitar solo actually reached its peak in the 80's. The music in general
>was crap, but the guitar work, taken in isolation, was phenomenal.
>I prefer late 60's early 70's rock, but I have to acknowledge the
>guitar talent from the 80's. That's the heyday of neo-classical metal,
>which is where you find some of the greatest guitarists of all time.
This says otherwise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cLWO-8RBes
d
owl
My god, that nearly put me to sleep. I saw Beck in '76, in a multi-band
concert, with Aerosmith. LOL. Needless to say, he was upstaged.
Here's a later-than-eighties example of skillful neo-classical metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjfUMLeKd5E
Jeff Beck does not have the skillz to play that. That's why he
does not attempt it.
But this is more my taste:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFyfKcanJ6k
Jeff Beck does not have the *feeling* to play that. (Hell, nobody else
does).
Hell, I'd even rather listen to this accordian monster than jazz guitar
(or jazz anything):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPzBQsg17w
Jeff Beck is overrated, like Jimmy Page (but not nearly as overrated
as Eric Crapton).
Definition of Jazz: If you hit the wrong note, just make like Pee Wee
and pretend you meant to do that.
Alexis Machine
> Rock never did anything for me.
Then you have problems.
Alexis Machine
> All other genres are producing crap at the moment.
Uh - not so.
There is a lot of good rock music being created today.
owl
OK. I have to admit I've got a concert DVD by these guys, and they rock
their asses off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTiGlNDnOtE
Do you have any suggestions for anything else in that groove?
(I'm an old geezer and don't get out much) :)
TomB
On 2010-01-07, the following emerged from the brain of Chris Ahlstrom:
> Keoki pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> On Jan 6, 11:17?am, JEDIDIAH <j...@nomad.mishnet> wrote:
>>
>>> ...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
>>> musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
>>> with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
>>
>> Michel Jarre?) created by hacking synths to death.
>
> Indeed, you are not aware.
>
> I suppose you also think Keith Emerson had somebody set up all those
> oscillators and ring modulators for him, too.
ELP, what a great band. Rick Wakeman is another great keyboard player,
and also known as a 'synth hacker'.
There has always been a lot of 'geekyness' in music and arts. I
once saw a documentary about the golden mean, and study proved that
some classical pieces were entirely composed against the math of the
golden mean.
--
I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns
on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.
~ Groucho Marx
Laurence Payne
<0hdann...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>You would be amazed how much raw talent is out there and by the same token
>you will probably never hear it because these people may not be marketable.
>from the perspective of the suits.
>
>Think Susan Boyle.
OK, I'm thinking. A pleasant voice, but equalled 10 times over in any
West End theatre chorus. A person who seemed quite incapable of
starting any sort of career by herself. But, within the peculiar
context of that TV talent show, she was marketable.
Mad as a Box of Frogs
Kadaitcha Man <an...@no.email> wrote:
>Some foo
/linux/h:j
/kadaitcha/f:j
--
Master of Puppets We are all Rich Rosen
DENSA Life Achievement � Am I the only one with half a brain?
William Poaster
Why is this crossposted to comp.os.linux.advocacy?
High Plains Thumper
> On 2010-01-06, Keoki<ofc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Without going into qualifying the words "crap" and "professionals",
>> I guess the post refers to a situation similar to what I ran into,
>> a Mac/ PC veteran musician checking Linux out for music apps unique
>> to it: Beast, Ounk, Rosegarden, Blue, PD, AlgoScore, Strasheela,
>> Waon, GranuLab...
>>
>> There is gold in them Linux hills, but getting to will be still a
>> challenge. I chronicled my attempts on LinuxForums.org;
>> ("Adventures in Linux MIDI" thread) - 18 of 20 distros I tried had
>> issues with JACK from the outset. In private emails I was told I
>> should pursue the issue deeper, get under the apps' hood to get
>> things working. How a musician would do that, I'm not sure. So I
>> floated a suggestion to
>
> ...um. You are aware right that when syths were first introduced to
> musicians that they pretty much hacked them to death and did things
> with them that the original engineers didn't expect.
>
> to their own profession and the related tools.
>
> [deletia]
>
> Some wannabe Garage Band user may have no chops but that's a
> different kettle of fish.
Kettle of fish? Post certainly rings of a Flatfish post,
generalisations of Linux performance ("18 of 20 distros I tried had
issues with JACK from the outset", "get under the apps' hod to get
things working", "How a musician would do that"), posting from Google
Groups through a Go-Daddy server, etc.
--
HPT
Rick
You can't get a DVD to play? On what distro?
> Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it
> works, there are areas that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and
> just plain hard to get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose
> chase. Which means you will probably give up and go elsewhere. The
> Linux community needs to solve these problems about playback of
> commercial DVDs,
All my DVDs will pay in PCLInuxOS, Ubuntu and OpenSuse.
> the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click
> download and install solution, etc.
What is hard about installing from a repository? Or about downloading an
rpm or deb, and then double-clicking it?
> The docs also need to be worked
> over very carefully for accuracy and clarity and put into a central
> indexed document.
Are you saying the all the docs for OS X and every OS X app are all
indexed in one single document?
> The complexity is huge, and one doesn't need to pull his hair out
> looking all over the world for a scrap of information relating to a
> problem. Right now, no operating system is close to being this way.
.. ahhh .. I guess not...
>
> Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
> UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
> installing new software.
Keep in mind that installing new software is very friendly on most Linux
based distros.
> I can go to the depths of technical
> complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
> can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for windows
> as well. I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as I was a
> Linux advocate in the past, but the main problem of 'Average User' of
> acquiring software and installing still exists. I've used Solaris and
> many versions of linux, but only windows and OS X makes it easy. The
Searching for OS X and Windows software is easier than searching for
Linux based software? Uh huh. Sure.
> downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And some
> of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
> available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've yet
> to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
Good for you. I've yet to catch a virus, let alone any malware for
around 10 years now... using Linux based systems.
--
Rick
Chris Ahlstrom
>> Actually, I think I'm the reasonable one here.
>
> Not really, ...
Yes, I am *perfectly* reasonable! :-)
> but maybe we both got off on the wrong foot.
Well, that's why someone cross-posted.
> My point is that
> Linux just is not ready to start replacing programs like Protools, Nuendo,
> Samplitude, Sonar and so forth in professional studios and the main reason
> is because the people who have to use these programs have a difficult time
> making them work.
I'll take your word for it. I've tinkered with Rosegarden and Ardour, and
have had little trouble with ALSA and Jack.
Another reason would be that those products are produced by professional
companies, and so they get set up to work for you, and marketed. I
personally haven't seen a lot of marketed Linux audio stuff, though it is
out there.
> You would be hard pressed to find a more attentive audience than musicians
> especially when the "Free word" is mentioned. We all want free or low cost
> solutions that we can create with and musicians tend to be at the low end of
> the monetary food chain, in general.
>
> The problem is, Linux just can't compare to even low cost alternatives for
> the Mac or Windows. Yes, you will find the developers of these programs
> making all kinds of comments about the power of these Linux programs, and
> they are correct but it all becomes a moot point when even the basic pro
> level hardware and plugins are not supported.
> You are not going to find a musician who is running Waves plugins playing
> around with the LADSPA plugins because he decides to use Linux.
So you are saying the vendors generally don't support Linux in this area.
> What it boils down to is really what is the advantage of Linux?
Cost.
> What real world advantage does Linux and Linux audio programs give me over
> Mac or Windows?
That, I don't know. As I noted, I barely tinker with music anymore (my old
MT-32 sits idle, for example, and I have not upgraded Cakewalk in ages).
However, if I got back into it, I am obviously not going to pay for or
pirate packaged solutions. So, for me, it would be Linux (which is by far
my preferred platform anyway).
> Forget about having the source code. I wouldn't know what to do with it.
No, but many others can, for you.
> Free?
> Ok, that's one that wets my whistle, but exactly what am I getting for free?
> I can get Audacity for Windows for free as well.
> I can get MuLab or Reaper or any number of other programs for free or very
> low cost.
Apparently you can run Reaper in wine with great performance.
> Assuming I run a Linux audio targeted distribution like 64studio, that means
> I have to run 2 separate systems. One for my general work and one for audio.
> How is that superior?
Hmmmm, I know of musicians who have more than one guitar. How is *that*
superior?
> See where I am going with this?
Yes. You're saying there are more prepackaged "solutions" available on
Windows. That is all.
> As a musician I am pounding on the Linux door, but when the wench answers
> and hands me a fist full of Linux DVD's to try, I just don't have the time
> to re-invent the wheel just to have it not be round anymore.
Here's one guy who feels differently:
http://linux-sound.org/ardour-music.html
Love the suit!
Here's another:
Anyway, I always get a little suspicious when claims are made in a field
where you can have everything from a know-nothing diva, to a few dudes with
some guitars and amps, to a group that is essentially a sound lab, all doing
"professional" music.
--
Artistic ventures highlighted. Rob a museum.
Chris Ahlstrom
> Daniel Gawade wrote:
>>
>> Not really, but maybe we both got off on the wrong foot.
>
> Heck, I still can't get any DVD player to work on Linux even using Suns
> VirtualBox software. Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it
> works, there are areas that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and
> just plain hard to get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose
> chase. Which means you will probably give up and go elsewhere.
> The Linux community needs to solve these problems about playback of
> commercial DVDs, the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click
> download and install solution, etc.
Grey, you're seriously wrong in the above.
> The docs also need to be worked
> over very carefully for accuracy and clarity and put into a central
> indexed document.
> The complexity is huge, and one doesn't need to pull his hair out
> looking all over the world for a scrap of information relating to a problem.
> Right now, no operating system is close to being this way.
>
> Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
> UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
> installing new software. I can go to the depths of technical
> complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
> can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for windows
> as well. I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as I was a
> Linux advocate in the past, but the main problem of 'Average User' of
> acquiring software and installing still exists. I've used Solaris and
> many versions of linux, but only windows and OS X makes it easy. The
> downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And some
> of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
> available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've yet
> to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
YMMV!
--
A horse! A horse! My kingdom for a horse!
-- Wm. Shakespeare, "Richard III"
Chris Ahlstrom
> "owl" <o...@rooftop.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sofada...@rooftop.invalid...
>> Music died about 10-15 years ago anyway.
>
> A lot of people and musicians will agree with you. I certainly do but with a
> qualification.
> The good music is not, for the most part in the mainstream media.
> It's in your local clubs, college radio stations etc.
>
> You would be amazed how much raw talent is out there and by the same token
> you will probably never hear it because these people may not be marketable.
> from the perspective of the suits.
>
> Think Susan Boyle.
Think streaming radio.
> Sad but true and I don't blame kids when they pirate music.
> Who the hell wants to spend $18.99 on a CD that has one, maybe 2 "hits" on
> it.
> A waste of money.
I actually bought a CD, 11:11 by Rodrigo y Gabriela. The old dude at the
Barnes & Noble had it playing.
Use the command-line app jack to rip, a script to master, and a script to
burn, and now it's in the car.
--
You display the wonderful traits of charm and courtesy.
Alexis Machine
> Do you have any suggestions for anything else in that groove?
> (I'm an old geezer and don't get out much) :)
>
Check out Drist, Drenalin and Craving Lucy. They're not big-name groups but
very good.
Jake Chaffie
> Yes, I am *perfectly* reasonable! :-)
When are you *perfectly* reasonable?
> I am seeking forgiveness from those I have mistreated over the last 30
> years before I die. I know I sound like a bastard, don't I? But that
> is my past, and it's one I'm ashamed of. I know that this will
> probably be rejected, and if its not, I will be judged harshly anyway.
> But please, understand that I am not the same person anymore as the
> one who did all those horrible things. I have really changed, and
> would like to have forgiveness, not just from you, but from society.
> If you don't forgive me I'll know you're all a bunch of cunts.
Good grief! How ghastly.
> Well, that's why someone cross-posted.
That's why you should have one in your garage.
> I'll take your word for it. I've tinkered with Rosegarden and Ardour,
> and have had little trouble with ALSA and Jack.
I've told you that for years.
> Another reason would be that those products are produced by
> professional companies, and so they get set up to work for you, and
> marketed. I personally haven't seen a lot of marketed Linux audio
> stuff, though it is out there.
It's an indication.
> So you are saying the vendors generally don't support Linux in this
> area.
Linux is a 4 letter word.
> What do you do when you see an endangered animal that eats only
> endangered plants?
Messy.
> Cost.
It'll be expensive. Can you afford it?
> That, I don't know. As I noted, I barely tinker with music anymore
> (my old MT-32 sits idle, for example, and I have not upgraded Cakewalk
> in ages). However, if I got back into it, I am obviously not going to
> pay for or pirate packaged solutions. So, for me, it would be Linux
> (which is by far my preferred platform anyway).
I would have.
> I have not lost my mind. It's backed up on disk somewhere.
Eat me.
> If at first I do succeed, I try not to look astonished.
How terribly alarming.
> No, but many others can, for you.
I don't have anything else to do.
> Apparently you can run Reaper in wine with great performance.
Has the treatment for your alcohol addiction and dependence problems
worked yet?
> Hmmmm, I know of musicians who have more than one guitar. How is
> *that* superior?
Sony's got some great cd players.
> Yes. You're saying there are more prepackaged "solutions" available
> on Windows. That is all.
Yes?
> Here's one guy who feels differently:
Who needs teeth?
> http://linux-sound.org/ardour-music.html
I am wondering who your intended audience is.
> Love the suit!
I think you are falling in love with me.
> I am thinking about having sex for the first time, but I know from my
> friends that it hurts, and I know through alittle experimentation that
> I am positive it would be painful for me, I want to know if there is a
> guy who can break me in, in the least painful way..Or am I doomed?
You break me up.
> Here's another:
What are you doing in this neck of the woods?
I just wish I could believe you.
> I have just been informed after being tested and tested and tested and
> all signs are pointing to ADD. I am very very confused. At First I
> though I just had a lot of energy and am normally very aggressive. I
> was hoping it would only be Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
I consider you to be a waste of time.
> Anyway, I always get a little suspicious when claims are made in a
> field where you can have everything from a know-nothing diva, to a few
> dudes with some guitars and amps, to a group that is essentially a
> sound lab, all doing "professional" music.
I always get a little suspicious when claims are made in a field where
me can have everything from a know too.
Kadaitcha Man
> I actually bought a CD,
Fuck me dead. Wonders never cease.
--
Test signature
chrisv
>Jeff Beck is overrated, like Jimmy Page (but not nearly as overrated
>as Eric Crapton).
Best ever was Hendrix. No question in my mind. Van Halen close
behind.
Apanetjerekhem XV
news:rdrbk5h3ck4lvt65g...@4ax.com:
> No question in my mind.
No mind, no question.
--
A test sig
Scott Dorsey
>Hacking the instruments internals to death, as the original poster
>described it - there's no correlation between people doing that and
>achieving any famous musical work.
Bach doesn't count?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
anahata
> Assuming I run a Linux audio targeted distribution like 64studio, that
> means I have to run 2 separate systems. One for my general work and one
> for audio. How is that superior?
That's not a Linux vs. Windows issue. Many Windows DAW users also have
ther DAW standalone, not networked and not used for anything else, for
good reasons, mostly to do with stable and predictable performance of the
DAW.
--
Anahata
ana...@treewind.co.uk ==//== 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk
Chris Ahlstrom
Guitars?
John McLaughlin
Eric Clapton
Leo Kottke
Segovia
All different.
Decent modern duos:
Shahin & Sepehr
Strunz & Farah
Rodrigo y Gabriela
It's like Linux apps, every one has their own list of favorites!
--
Caution: Keep out of reach of children.
DFS
> I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as I was a
> Linux advocate in the past,
Until you decided to drop the dishonest posing.
> but the main problem of 'Average User' of
> acquiring software and installing still exists.
Yes. A few months ago I asked cola "advocate$" to tell me how to install
software not in the repos. I got two half-ass replies:
1) RTFM
2) use different apps
All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even in the
year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
techie-kludge-nightmare.
See http://www.digikam.org/drupal/download for an example
Don't forget that Linux made your Mac smoke when you tried to install it.
Such a piece of ....
Scott Dorsey
>
>Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
>UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
>installing new software. I can go to the depths of technical
>complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
>can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for windows
>as well.
Actually not. After years of using Solaris package management (and the
somewhat cruder rpm package management), OSX is like going back in time
twenty years. You can install stuff, but every package comes with its
own installer, and you can't necessarily uninstall anything cleanly.
It's getting better, mind you.
Daniel Gawade
> That seems to place you possibly in the 60s age bracket. Yes?
Actually 42 years young. Based on my taste in music, my friends think I've
been re-incarnated.
GreyCloud
OpenSuse 11.2. x64 version too. Every website that I go to to solve
this problem... it never works.
>> Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it
>> works, there are areas that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and
>> just plain hard to get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose
>> chase. Which means you will probably give up and go elsewhere. The
>> Linux community needs to solve these problems about playback of
>> commercial DVDs,
>
> All my DVDs will pay in PCLInuxOS, Ubuntu and OpenSuse.
>
Ok, which media player are you using, and what are the steps to getting
the necessary files that don't break dependency rules?
>> the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click
>> download and install solution, etc.
>
> What is hard about installing from a repository? Or about downloading an
> rpm or deb, and then double-clicking it?
>
If the repository doesn't have what you want, then you have to look
around for another one that does have it. This leads to wild goose chases.
>> The docs also need to be worked
>> over very carefully for accuracy and clarity and put into a central
>> indexed document.
>
> Are you saying the all the docs for OS X and every OS X app are all
> indexed in one single document?
>
Under XCode, yes.
They include Java, C, C++, Python, Ruby, Cocoa, Objective-C, X11, system
calls, system programming guidlines, kernel extensions,... the list goes
on. A lot of these references have links to other on line sources.
Mind you that it isn't perfect, but very close.
>> The complexity is huge, and one doesn't need to pull his hair out
>> looking all over the world for a scrap of information relating to a
>> problem. Right now, no operating system is close to being this way.
>
> .. ahhh .. I guess not...
>
>> Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
>> UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
>> installing new software.
>
> Keep in mind that installing new software is very friendly on most Linux
> based distros.
>
Well, I downloaded thru the depository MPlayer and it installed ok. But
it couldn't play a commercial dvd. I downloaded a lot of stuff thru the
depository search function. But one item is behind the times ...
NetBeans on the repository is only 6.5 when in fact the latest is at
6.8. So I went to Netbeans.org and downloaded the latest Linux rpm and
let Yast do its thing. Even tho it is easy for me to do, it still isn't
as automated as it should be... if you are the one that decides you want
to download the software, it also stands to reason that you also want it
installed and running... which in OS X case it does just that for you.
No muss no fuss.
>> I can go to the depths of technical
>> complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
>> can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for windows
>> as well. I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as I was a
>> Linux advocate in the past, but the main problem of 'Average User' of
>> acquiring software and installing still exists. I've used Solaris and
>> many versions of linux, but only windows and OS X makes it easy. The
>
> Searching for OS X and Windows software is easier than searching for
> Linux based software? Uh huh. Sure.
>
Of course it is. No different than any other os. The problems come in
when you want that software download installed and running correctly.
I've found a lot of software on OpenSuse, like VLC for instance, that
downloaded ok... installed ok... but when it ran... well it started to
load (with the bouncing vlc symbol for a long time) then it just
disappeared. The second try it ran for a short time then crashed with a
pop-up dialog box wanting to know if you want to file a bug report.
This is where I just uninstalled vlc. Vlc works fine on OS X.
>> downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And some
>> of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
>> available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've yet
>> to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
>
> Good for you. I've yet to catch a virus, let alone any malware for
> around 10 years now... using Linux based systems.
>
Of course. Both oses have a common root: open source. All it takes to
be successful is a well integrated and managed package.
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Daniel Gawade wrote:
>>> Not really, but maybe we both got off on the wrong foot.
>> Heck, I still can't get any DVD player to work on Linux even using Suns
>> VirtualBox software. Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it
>> works, there are areas that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and
>> just plain hard to get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose
>> chase. Which means you will probably give up and go elsewhere.
>> The Linux community needs to solve these problems about playback of
>> commercial DVDs, the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click
>> download and install solution, etc.
>
> Grey, you're seriously wrong in the above.
>
I figured I'd catch a lot of flack over this one, but I'm standing my
ground on this one. None of the Linux distros work correctly under any
virtual environment. I've ran into more screw ups than I can shake a
stick at. If the average user that isn't software savvy or computer
savvy... they are going to run away from these kinds of problems.
Keoki
You do resemble, but my post was a composite of the several emails I
got. So you are correct, I'm not quoting your message verbatim.
By the way, you are the hero of the group. After I floated the idea in
email of creating a "fixing up X distro to work on your computer" on
LinuxForums.org to all, you are the one who didn't disappear. :-)
If someone wants to go through all 18 misbehaving distros with the 3-
step process you described (or even an expanded version of it), I'll
gladly snail mail all these distro discs I burned to his/her address.
As long as I receive a firm promise beforehand to complete the task
fully and post the results in the same thread here
so that we have everything documented in one place for consistency.
On Jan 6, 2:09 pm, philicorda <philico...@NOOSSPPPAAMMM.ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> Hey, I resemble that remark.
Keoki
> Jazz is doing ok as long as you ignore smooth jazz crap.
Richard Crowley
> Why ignore it, that's my favorite jazz genre.
>> Jazz is doing ok as long as you ignore smooth jazz crap.
Children think that only THEIR preference (for anything)
is valid.
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud wrote:
>> I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as I was a
>> Linux advocate in the past,
>
> Until you decided to drop the dishonest posing.
>
Back then Linux was progressing steadily forward. Then a point was
reached where audio output and media playing seemed to be a stop point.
I have yet to see any true breakthrus to making it an easy install that
just works for the end user. I suppose that if I pay Redhat their $150
for the desktop linux that this would work well... but then that also
defeats the point of it being free. Which is why I moved to OS X.
Even Sun Microsystems purchased box when installed won't play commercial
Dvds, and they even admit that they aren't in that particular business
with respects to drm stuff.
>
>
>> but the main problem of 'Average User' of
>> acquiring software and installing still exists.
>
> Yes. A few months ago I asked cola "advocate$" to tell me how to install
> software not in the repos. I got two half-ass replies:
>
> 1) RTFM
> 2) use different apps
>
> All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even in the
> year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
> techie-kludge-nightmare.
>
This problem of software installation still remains and it is between a
debian installation and a Redhat style of installation. If the library
versions aren't just so-so you get a dependency warning flag and you
have to go elsewhere for your software. Bottom line for the linux
systems builders: when you download software, it also means you want it
installed and able to run it without any user intervention. If Apple
can do it, then so can Linux, but they haven't figured it out yet.
I've yet to get any media player for dvds to work yet in two different
virtual machines now. I've tried the latest Fedora, OpenSuse, Kubuntu,
Ubuntu linuxes, and under two virtual machines and no luck.
> See http://www.digikam.org/drupal/download for an example
>
> Don't forget that Linux made your Mac smoke when you tried to install it.
>
That was on a G5 processor. I'm using a dual core intel now. (iMac)
Keoki
Bach would count big time but what clavichord or pipe organ did he
assemble (or reassemble)? "Hacking an instrument to death" means
digging under the hood to build or significantly fix something. I am
not aware of Bach doing anything such.
He certainly mastered several instruments playing, as a good composer.
That's not "hacking", that's mastering the instrument. People seem to
mix three different occupations here, I'll attempt to make the
distinction clear.
1. People who hack instruments, or programs or OSs - your Stradivaris,
Alphonse Saxes, Les Pauls, the Ableton Developer Team, Linux-heads -
it's instrument builders.
2. People who hack instruments, or programs or OSs to coax something
new out - in Chris's post: Subotnick, Fast, DJ Keoki etc - composers
who innovate
3. People who create a synthesis of all knowledge from the two
preceding groups that is greater than the sum of its parts - the
"great" composers, e.g. Gershwin
When I say there is no historic correlation of the great composers in
group 3 getting involved with "hacking instruments to death" what
Group 1 does, that's all I mean. There may be an example I'm not aware
of, but it will be an exception, not the rule. And I'm not making a
judgment here as to which of the 3 groups is more important, either -
the food chain would not exist with either part missing.
The point I'm trying to make, these are 3 different groups which
should not be confounded. An instrument (or distro) builder in group 1
is as different from a great composer in group 3 as he would be from
an eye doctor. Saying you are a great composer because you hack
instruments to death (or even, invent new things like the composers in
group 2) makes no more sense than saying, you are a great composer
because you are an eye doctor. Sure, some great composers might have
been (or will be in the future) eye doctors or distro builders or
whatever, but it's an exception, not the rule.
Keoki
get a stack of Kenny G CDs in the mail... :-)
Scott Wilkie, Paul Taylor, Boney James, Richard Elliot, Jessy J, etc.
(In no particular order)
AZ Nomad
and assholes can't help but bitch about it.
Chris Ahlstrom
> DFS wrote:
>>
>> All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even in the
>> year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
>> techie-kludge-nightmare.
>
> This problem of software installation still remains and it is between a
> debian installation and a Redhat style of installation. If the library
> versions aren't just so-so you get a dependency warning flag and you
> have to go elsewhere for your software. Bottom line for the linux
> systems builders: when you download software, it also means you want it
> installed and able to run it without any user intervention. If Apple
> can do it, then so can Linux, but they haven't figured it out yet.
Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for years
on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily and
reliably.
> I've yet to get any media player for dvds to work yet in two different
> virtual machines now. I've tried the latest Fedora, OpenSuse, Kubuntu,
> Ubuntu linuxes, and under two virtual machines and no luck.
For RedHat-based distros, you need to add the rpmfusion repositories, to get
the DVD CSS stuff and certain codecs.
For Debian, you need to add the debian-multimedia.org repositories.
You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI package
manager.
Your Google skills have failed you!
And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip insulting
and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
--
You never hesitate to tackle the most difficult problems.
TomB
On 2010-01-07, the following emerged from the brain of Chris Ahlstrom:
> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> DFS wrote:
>>>
>>> All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even in the
>>> year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
>>> techie-kludge-nightmare.
>>
>> This problem of software installation still remains and it is between a
>> debian installation and a Redhat style of installation. If the library
>> versions aren't just so-so you get a dependency warning flag and you
>> have to go elsewhere for your software. Bottom line for the linux
>> systems builders: when you download software, it also means you want it
>> installed and able to run it without any user intervention. If Apple
>> can do it, then so can Linux, but they haven't figured it out yet.
>
> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for years
> on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily and
> reliably.
On Debian you can even do realtime with the stock kernel nowadays. I
can't get the amazing latency I get with a rt-patched kernel, but it
is more than good enough. And that's with an onboard hda_intel device.
On Debian Lenny/Sid you even get the choice to enable realtime for the
audio group, so you no longer need to fiddle with
/etc/security/limits.d manually.
--
Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do
is smoke pot and smell bad.
~ Eric Cartman
Clogwog
news:9serzf...@rooftop.invalid...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Don Pearce <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:59:35 +0000 (UTC), owl <o...@rooftop.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>If you're talking about totally instrumental songs, yeah. But the
>>>guitar solo actually reached its peak in the 80's. The music in general
>>>was crap, but the guitar work, taken in isolation, was phenomenal.
>>>I prefer late 60's early 70's rock, but I have to acknowledge the
>>>guitar talent from the 80's. That's the heyday of neo-classical metal,
>>>which is where you find some of the greatest guitarists of all time.
>>
>> This says otherwise
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cLWO-8RBes
>>
>> d
>
> My god, that nearly put me to sleep. I saw Beck in '76, in a multi-band
> concert, with Aerosmith. LOL. Needless to say, he was upstaged.
>
> Here's a later-than-eighties example of skillful neo-classical metal
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjfUMLeKd5E
> Jeff Beck does not have the skillz to play that. That's why he
> does not attempt it.
>
> But this is more my taste:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFyfKcanJ6k
> Jeff Beck does not have the *feeling* to play that. (Hell, nobody else
> does).
>
> Hell, I'd even rather listen to this accordian monster than jazz guitar
> (or jazz anything):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPzBQsg17w
>
> Jeff Beck is overrated, like Jimmy Page (but not nearly as overrated
> as Eric Crapton).
You never saw Clapton in Osaka with George Harrison in 1991 playing "While
my guitar....", now did you!
This guy has more blues in his little finger than the guitar botchers,
described here, in their whole body!
This one comes close to the osaka version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ExeenX3pU
Or listen to Key to the Highway (Derek and the Dominos version 9:43)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK9E6-Eu3-Y
Don Pearce
wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cLWO-8RBes
>>
>> d
>
>My god, that nearly put me to sleep. I saw Beck in '76, in a multi-band
>concert, with Aerosmith. LOL. Needless to say, he was upstaged.
In your mind only, I'm afraid. Beck is the man the guitarists go to
watch.
d
Rick
I have used OpenSuse 11.2, 32 0r 64, I do have 11.1. DVDs play.
>
>>> Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it works, there are areas
>>> that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and just plain hard to
>>> get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose chase. Which means
>>> you will probably give up and go elsewhere. The Linux community needs
>>> to solve these problems about playback of commercial DVDs,
>>
>> All my DVDs will pay in PCLInuxOS, Ubuntu and OpenSuse.
>>
>>
> Ok, which media player are you using, and what are the steps to getting
> the necessary files that don't break dependency rules?
I use VLC, Xine and Mplayer. IRRC, I have installed them all from
repositories. In OpenSuse and Ubuntu, I always ad the community
repositories.
>
>
>>> the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click download and
>>> install solution, etc.
>>
>> What is hard about installing from a repository? Or about downloading
>> an rpm or deb, and then double-clicking it?
>>
>>
> If the repository doesn't have what you want, then you have to look
> around for another one that does have it. This leads to wild goose
> chases.
And what central location has every Mac or Windows app available?
>
>>> The docs also need to be worked
>>> over very carefully for accuracy and clarity and put into a central
>>> indexed document.
>>
>> Are you saying the all the docs for OS X and every OS X app are all
>> indexed in one single document?
>>
>>
> Under XCode, yes.
> They include Java, C, C++, Python, Ruby, Cocoa, Objective-C, X11, system
> calls, system programming guidlines, kernel extensions,... the list goes
> on. A lot of these references have links to other on line sources. Mind
> you that it isn't perfect, but very close.
That isn't anywhere near every OS X app.
>
>
>>> The complexity is huge, and one doesn't need to pull his hair out
>>> looking all over the world for a scrap of information relating to a
>>> problem. Right now, no operating system is close to being this way.
>>
>> .. ahhh .. I guess not...
>>
>>> Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
>>> UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
>>> installing new software.
>>
>> Keep in mind that installing new software is very friendly on most
>> Linux based distros.
>>
>>
> Well, I downloaded thru the depository MPlayer and it installed ok. But
> it couldn't play a commercial dvd.
Did you download and install the codecs and DeCSS?
> I downloaded a lot of stuff thru the
> depository search function. But one item is behind the times ...
> NetBeans on the repository is only 6.5 when in fact the latest is at
> 6.8. So I went to Netbeans.org and downloaded the latest Linux rpm and
> let Yast do its thing. Even tho it is easy for me to do, it still isn't
> as automated as it should be... if you are the one that decides you want
> to download the software, it also stands to reason that you also want it
> installed and running... which in OS X case it does just that for you.
> No muss no fuss.
Uh huh. Every OS X under the sun is housed in one convenient location...
>
>>> I can go to the depths of technical
>>> complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
>>> can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for
>>> windows as well. I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as
>>> I was a Linux advocate in the past, but the main problem of 'Average
>>> User' of acquiring software and installing still exists. I've used
>>> Solaris and many versions of linux, but only windows and OS X makes it
>>> easy. The
>>
>> Searching for OS X and Windows software is easier than searching for
>> Linux based software? Uh huh. Sure.
>>
>>
> Of course it is. No different than any other os.
It is both easier and the same as any other OS?
> The problems come in
> when you want that software download installed and running correctly.
> I've found a lot of software on OpenSuse, like VLC for instance, that
> downloaded ok... installed ok... but when it ran... well it started to
> load (with the bouncing vlc symbol for a long time) then it just
> disappeared. The second try it ran for a short time then crashed with a
> pop-up dialog box wanting to know if you want to file a bug report. This
> is where I just uninstalled vlc. Vlc works fine on OS X.
I just launched VLC and popped in HHGTG. I am not watching the
dolphins ...
>
>
>>> downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And some
>>> of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
>>> available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've yet
>>> to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
>>
>> Good for you. I've yet to catch a virus, let alone any malware for
>> around 10 years now... using Linux based systems.
>>
> Of course. Both oses have a common root: open source. All it takes to
> be successful is a well integrated and managed package.
Synaptic does a pretty good job.
--
Rick
owl
Saw him in the mid-80's backing up Muddy Waters.
> This guy has more blues in his little finger than the guitar botchers,
> described here, in their whole body!
Try thinking outside the pentatonic box.
> This one comes close to the osaka version:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ExeenX3pU
>
Unfortunately for Crapton, a Les Paul does not play itself.
And what's with the shitty tone?
> Or listen to Key to the Highway (Derek and the Dominos version 9:43)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK9E6-Eu3-Y
>
If you're gonna solo on a Les Paul, you better be Gary Rossington, Slash,
or Neil Young.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMRv32DOo1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGeDMw2Hi1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOR0zLL7UlU
owl
Err... I am a guitarist. And I think his music is boring.
owl
> On 07 Jan 2010, owl wrote:
>
>> Do you have any suggestions for anything else in that groove?
>> (I'm an old geezer and don't get out much) :)
>>
>
> Check out Drist, Drenalin and Craving Lucy. They're not big-name groups but
> very good.
Thanks. I'll check them out.
GreyCloud
I've tried OpenSuse 11.1 as well. The only difference is that I'm using
suns VirtualBox and also VMWare Fusion. Could it be that both of these
virtual programs are screwing over dvd playback in some fashion?
>
>>>> Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it works, there are areas
>>>> that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and just plain hard to
>>>> get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose chase. Which means
>>>> you will probably give up and go elsewhere. The Linux community needs
>>>> to solve these problems about playback of commercial DVDs,
>>> All my DVDs will pay in PCLInuxOS, Ubuntu and OpenSuse.
>>>
>>>
>> Ok, which media player are you using, and what are the steps to getting
>> the necessary files that don't break dependency rules?
>
> I use VLC, Xine and Mplayer. IRRC, I have installed them all from
> repositories. In OpenSuse and Ubuntu, I always ad the community
> repositories.
>
How about giving out the community repository url. I can probably use
that one pretty bad right now.
>>
>>>> the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click download and
>>>> install solution, etc.
>>> What is hard about installing from a repository? Or about downloading
>>> an rpm or deb, and then double-clicking it?
>>>
>>>
>> If the repository doesn't have what you want, then you have to look
>> around for another one that does have it. This leads to wild goose
>> chases.
>
> And what central location has every Mac or Windows app available?
>
For dependencies... this isn't a problem for OS X. Windows? I don't
know as I don't use it.
>>>> The docs also need to be worked
>>>> over very carefully for accuracy and clarity and put into a central
>>>> indexed document.
>>> Are you saying the all the docs for OS X and every OS X app are all
>>> indexed in one single document?
>>>
>>>
>> Under XCode, yes.
>> They include Java, C, C++, Python, Ruby, Cocoa, Objective-C, X11, system
>> calls, system programming guidlines, kernel extensions,... the list goes
>> on. A lot of these references have links to other on line sources. Mind
>> you that it isn't perfect, but very close.
>
> That isn't anywhere near every OS X app.
>
The rest of the docs are in the system help file. Some are linked to urls.
>>
>>>> The complexity is huge, and one doesn't need to pull his hair out
>>>> looking all over the world for a scrap of information relating to a
>>>> problem. Right now, no operating system is close to being this way.
>>> .. ahhh .. I guess not...
>>>
>>>> Keep in mind that OS X is a certified UNIX os that is pretty much BSD
>>>> UNIX based. Yet it is very friendly to the user in regards to
>>>> installing new software.
>>> Keep in mind that installing new software is very friendly on most
>>> Linux based distros.
>>>
>>>
>> Well, I downloaded thru the depository MPlayer and it installed ok. But
>> it couldn't play a commercial dvd.
>
> Did you download and install the codecs and DeCSS?
>
No, I just used a one click solution that was offered for both VLC and
MPlayer. Nothing was ever said on these web sites about where else to
go to get codecs and DeCSS for OpenSuse x64. These I'd like to get if
these are necessary.
>> I downloaded a lot of stuff thru the
>> depository search function. But one item is behind the times ...
>> NetBeans on the repository is only 6.5 when in fact the latest is at
>> 6.8. So I went to Netbeans.org and downloaded the latest Linux rpm and
>> let Yast do its thing. Even tho it is easy for me to do, it still isn't
>> as automated as it should be... if you are the one that decides you want
>> to download the software, it also stands to reason that you also want it
>> installed and running... which in OS X case it does just that for you.
>> No muss no fuss.
>
> Uh huh. Every OS X under the sun is housed in one convenient location...
>
All of the programs that I've downloaded from various websites have
always worked. Why? Easy... there aren't any dependencies to worry about.
>>>> I can go to the depths of technical
>>>> complexity, or just use it as is with whatever software I want that I
>>>> can find on the internet. The same can be pretty much said for
>>>> windows as well. I'll probably catch a lot of catcalls over this, as
>>>> I was a Linux advocate in the past, but the main problem of 'Average
>>>> User' of acquiring software and installing still exists. I've used
>>>> Solaris and many versions of linux, but only windows and OS X makes it
>>>> easy. The
>>> Searching for OS X and Windows software is easier than searching for
>>> Linux based software? Uh huh. Sure.
>>>
>>>
>> Of course it is. No different than any other os.
>
> It is both easier and the same as any other OS?
>
The reason it is far easier on both of these oses, is that there aren't
any dependencies to worry about... either they install and work or they
don't. And I'm only guessing about windows, but on the Mac things are
extremely easy.
>> The problems come in
>> when you want that software download installed and running correctly.
>> I've found a lot of software on OpenSuse, like VLC for instance, that
>> downloaded ok... installed ok... but when it ran... well it started to
>> load (with the bouncing vlc symbol for a long time) then it just
>> disappeared. The second try it ran for a short time then crashed with a
>> pop-up dialog box wanting to know if you want to file a bug report. This
>> is where I just uninstalled vlc. Vlc works fine on OS X.
>
> I just launched VLC and popped in HHGTG. I am not watching the
> dolphins ...
>
>>
>>>> downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And some
>>>> of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
>>>> available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've yet
>>>> to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
>>> Good for you. I've yet to catch a virus, let alone any malware for
>>> around 10 years now... using Linux based systems.
>>>
>> Of course. Both oses have a common root: open source. All it takes to
>> be successful is a well integrated and managed package.
>
> Synaptic does a pretty good job.
>
But does OpenSuse 11.2 use that?
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> DFS wrote:
>>> All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even in the
>>> year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
>>> techie-kludge-nightmare.
>> This problem of software installation still remains and it is between a
>> debian installation and a Redhat style of installation. If the library
>> versions aren't just so-so you get a dependency warning flag and you
>> have to go elsewhere for your software. Bottom line for the linux
>> systems builders: when you download software, it also means you want it
>> installed and able to run it without any user intervention. If Apple
>> can do it, then so can Linux, but they haven't figured it out yet.
>
> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for years
> on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily and
> reliably.
>
It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
flatfish was getting at. Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac and
then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox or buy
VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't work.
>> I've yet to get any media player for dvds to work yet in two different
>> virtual machines now. I've tried the latest Fedora, OpenSuse, Kubuntu,
>> Ubuntu linuxes, and under two virtual machines and no luck.
>
> For RedHat-based distros, you need to add the rpmfusion repositories, to get
> the DVD CSS stuff and certain codecs.
>
> For Debian, you need to add the debian-multimedia.org repositories.
>
> You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
>
Then the OpenSuse website should have all this stuff made available out
in plain view in their installation section, which it isn't.
So, which repositories do I need to poke into Yast to get things going
for MPlayer? I've already downloaded VLC thru a repository and that one
installed ok, but when I launched it... it died. Then I tried it again,
and it crashed and up came a pop-up and asked if I wanted to file a bug
report. I call that Piss-Poor programming.
> Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI package
> manager.
>
> Your Google skills have failed you!
>
> And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip insulting
> and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
>
Ah,... I'm still here, just waking up to a few thing that should have
progressed but has either been overlooked or that the developers just
don't get it yet. When I have a fully certified UNIX running and
everything that I want to download and automatically install properly, I
call that progress and ease of use. You shouldn't *HAVE* to go out and
chase down libraries... they should be included. This sort of wild
goose chase is a thing of the past... the future is now.
Hadron
"The" Guitarists.
owl
LOL.
Alexis Machine
> Thanks. I'll check them out.
cdbaby.com is a great place to find unknown bands.
Rick
I have not tried to play DVDs in any VM, and I don't use Virtual Box,
just VMWare Workstation. I do know that accelerated video is problematic
in VMs.
>
>>>>> Tho I like the philosophy of Linux and how it works, there are areas
>>>>> that are badly disjointed like sound, video, and just plain hard to
>>>>> get libraries... which leads you on a wild goose chase. Which means
>>>>> you will probably give up and go elsewhere. The Linux community
>>>>> needs to solve these problems about playback of commercial DVDs,
>>>> All my DVDs will pay in PCLInuxOS, Ubuntu and OpenSuse.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Ok, which media player are you using, and what are the steps to
>>> getting the necessary files that don't break dependency rules?
>>
>> I use VLC, Xine and Mplayer. IRRC, I have installed them all from
>> repositories. In OpenSuse and Ubuntu, I always ad the community
>> repositories.
>>
>>
> How about giving out the community repository url. I can probably use
> that one pretty bad right now.
In OpenSuse they are listed in Yast. You select add repositories,
Community, and then choose the ones you want. IIRC, you select the
Universe and Multiverse repositories in Ubuntu, docs for that are widely
available. IIRC, in PCLOS, the Extra and non-free sections of
repositories are already in use.
>
>
>>>>> the coherent synched libraries, getting a one-click download and
>>>>> install solution, etc.
>>>> What is hard about installing from a repository? Or about downloading
>>>> an rpm or deb, and then double-clicking it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If the repository doesn't have what you want, then you have to look
>>> around for another one that does have it. This leads to wild goose
>>> chases.
>>
>> And what central location has every Mac or Windows app available?
>>
>>
> For dependencies... this isn't a problem for OS X. Windows? I don't
> know as I don't use it.
Yes, libraries and such do change very quickly within FOSS/OSS systems.
On many distros you have to install the codecs to play some media,
libdvdcss, which allows for the decoding of encrypted DVDs.
That's because the underlying libraries aren't upgraded as much. Still,
stick with software from the repositories and you shouldn't have those
issues.
>
>
>>> The problems come in
>>> when you want that software download installed and running correctly.
>>> I've found a lot of software on OpenSuse, like VLC for instance, that
>>> downloaded ok... installed ok... but when it ran... well it started to
>>> load (with the bouncing vlc symbol for a long time) then it just
>>> disappeared. The second try it ran for a short time then crashed with
>>> a pop-up dialog box wanting to know if you want to file a bug report.
>>> This is where I just uninstalled vlc. Vlc works fine on OS X.
>>
>> I just launched VLC and popped in HHGTG. I am not watching the
>> dolphins ...
>>
>>
>>>>> downside of windows is obvious... viruses and nasty malware. And
>>>>> some of that malware can make a person go to drink. The only os now
>>>>> available that hasn't given me any serious troubles is OS X. I've
>>>>> yet to catch a virus, let alone any malware in over 6 years now.
>>>> Good for you. I've yet to catch a virus, let alone any malware for
>>>> around 10 years now... using Linux based systems.
>>>>
>>> Of course. Both oses have a common root: open source. All it takes
>>> to be successful is a well integrated and managed package.
>>
>> Synaptic does a pretty good job.
>>
>>
> But does OpenSuse 11.2 use that?
OpenSuse uses Yast's Software management module, and yes, it is at least
as good as Synaptic.
--
Rick
Rick
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>>> DFS wrote:
>>>> All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even
>>>> in the year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
>>>> techie-kludge-nightmare.
>>> This problem of software installation still remains and it is between
>>> a debian installation and a Redhat style of installation. If the
>>> library versions aren't just so-so you get a dependency warning flag
>>> and you have to go elsewhere for your software. Bottom line for the
>>> linux systems builders: when you download software, it also means you
>>> want it installed and able to run it without any user intervention.
>>> If Apple can do it, then so can Linux, but they haven't figured it out
>>> yet.
Let's look at you statement: If Apple can do it, then so can Linux. Apple
is a company. Linux is not. Do you mean the various distribution
packagers?
>>
>> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for
>> years on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily
>> and reliably.
>>
>>
> It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
> flatfish was getting at. Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac and
> then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox or buy
> VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't work.
Virtual Box and VMWare don't work on OS X?
>
>>> I've yet to get any media player for dvds to work yet in two different
>>> virtual machines now. I've tried the latest Fedora, OpenSuse,
>>> Kubuntu, Ubuntu linuxes, and under two virtual machines and no luck.
>>
>> For RedHat-based distros, you need to add the rpmfusion repositories,
>> to get the DVD CSS stuff and certain codecs.
>>
>> For Debian, you need to add the debian-multimedia.org repositories.
>>
>> You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
>>
>>
> Then the OpenSuse website should have all this stuff made available out
> in plain view in their installation section, which it isn't.
They don't because it is apparently illegal in some places to include
various and dvdcss with the distro. But it is very easy to install those
from easily enabled repositories.
>
> So, which repositories do I need to poke into Yast to get things going
> for MPlayer? I've already downloaded VLC thru a repository and that one
> installed ok, but when I launched it... it died. Then I tried it again,
> and it crashed and up came a pop-up and asked if I wanted to file a bug
> report. I call that Piss-Poor programming.
Did you file a bug report? Did you look around for filed bug reports?
>
>> Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI
>> package manager.
>>
>> Your Google skills have failed you!
>>
>> And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip
>> insulting and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
>>
>>
> Ah,... I'm still here, just waking up to a few thing that should have
> progressed but has either been overlooked or that the developers just
> don't get it yet. When I have a fully certified UNIX running and
> everything that I want to download and automatically install properly, I
> call that progress and ease of use. You shouldn't *HAVE* to go out and
> chase down libraries... they should be included. This sort of wild
> goose chase is a thing of the past... the future is now.
Frequent updates can lead to having to chase dependencies, and IP laws
cause users of mostly Free systems to have to chase codecs and decryption
software.
--
Rick
Clogwog
There is no "shitty tone", you have to see an otologist!
The Osaka version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_IAhVJfXVw
From 2.07 and 3.52: a *real* "weeping guitar"- 6.10 Clapton & Harrison
playing together: a masterpiece!!!!!
>
>> Or listen to Key to the Highway (Derek and the Dominos version 9:43)
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK9E6-Eu3-Y
>>
>
> If you're gonna solo on a Les Paul, you better be Gary Rossington, Slash,
> or Neil Young.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMRv32DOo1U
This really sucks bad! Yegh!!!!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGeDMw2Hi1Y
Slash is good, especially, knocking on heavens door!, French hippodrome
performance is the best version for me!
I saw him perform in Goffertpark Nijmegen in 1995!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOR0zLL7UlU
Neil is a gem, one of the best artists ever, like Clapton!! :-p
b.t.w.
Do you know Jan Akkerman?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpV5InLw52U&feature=related
Michael
This guy pwns them.
Chris Ahlstrom
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for years
>> on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily and
>> reliably.
>
> It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
> flatfish was getting at.
Flatfish is full of shit, Greycloud -- a crank and a troll.
Although he at least hits the mark once and a while.
> Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac and
> then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox or buy
> VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't work.
I'm talking about live boxes, of course, but virtual machines should be
less problematic (except for USB, which apparently is disable in the OSE
edition).
>> You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
>
> Then the OpenSuse website should have all this stuff made available out
> in plain view in their installation section, which it isn't.
Ask Rick. For Debian and Fedora/RedHat, these extra repositories are
unofficial, but *easy* to find.
> So, which repositories do I need to poke into Yast to get things going
> for MPlayer? I've already downloaded VLC thru a repository and that one
> installed ok, but when I launched it... it died. Then I tried it again,
> and it crashed and up came a pop-up and asked if I wanted to file a bug
> report. I call that Piss-Poor programming.
Run it from the command-line. Almost certainly, you bypassed a
dependency that the package manager would have installed for you.
>> Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI package
>> manager.
>>
>> Your Google skills have failed you!
>>
>> And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip insulting
>> and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
>
> Ah,... I'm still here, just waking up to a few thing that should have
> progressed but has either been overlooked or that the developers just
> don't get it yet. When I have a fully certified UNIX running and
> everything that I want to download and automatically install properly, I
> call that progress and ease of use. You shouldn't *HAVE* to go out and
> chase down libraries... they should be included. This sort of wild
> goose chase is a thing of the past... the future is now.
And, indeed, with Debian, and even with Fedora (though a little less so),
I experience all that you want *now*. It was not all that bad in the past,
for a programmer type, but now that stuff is *incredibly* easy, barring the
occasional corner case.
Linux (and BSD) *has* progressed, amazingly so. Maybe OpenSUse is a little
more primitive in DVD/codecs arena, I don't know, as I have never used SUse.
--
He is now rising from affluence to poverty.
-- Mark Twain
chrisv
>>
>> owl <o...@rooftop.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>> Err... I am a guitarist. And I think his music is boring.
>>
>> "The" Guitarists.
Who do the shit-brained lying assholes like, "Hadron"?
--
"In addition most of the COLA faithful claim to filter GGs becuase
ONLY clueless nOObs and windows using idiots use it." - Hadron
Quark, lying shamelessly
Snit
7:26 AM:
>> Hadron quacked:
>>>
>>> owl <o...@rooftop.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>> Err... I am a guitarist. And I think his music is boring.
>>>
>>> "The" Guitarists.
>
> Who do the shit-brained lying assholes like, "Hadron"?
Funny how you refuse to comment on your own lies:
-----
Ignore Shit's lies. When you get past the deliberately vague
and evasive language, it comes down to "you are anti-choice
if you do not support the choice to restrict choice".
Shit is a worthless, trolling asshole.
-----
You mock people's online names, you make up stories about people, and you
spew silly insults. Then you whine that you think others act as you...
what, mad that Hadron steals your schtick?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
GreyCloud
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 18:01:29 -0700, GreyCloud wrote:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>>>
>>>> DFS wrote:
>>>>> All the other cola cockroaches scattered because they know that even
>>>>> in the year 2010, their bullshit "operating system" is still a
>>>>> techie-kludge-nightmare.
>>>> This problem of software installation still remains and it is between
>>>> a debian installation and a Redhat style of installation. If the
>>>> library versions aren't just so-so you get a dependency warning flag
>>>> and you have to go elsewhere for your software. Bottom line for the
>>>> linux systems builders: when you download software, it also means you
>>>> want it installed and able to run it without any user intervention.
>>>> If Apple can do it, then so can Linux, but they haven't figured it out
>>>> yet.
>
> Let's look at you statement: If Apple can do it, then so can Linux. Apple
> is a company. Linux is not. Do you mean the various distribution
> packagers?
I've just showed you proof that a UNIX system can be integrated together
to provide a very user friendly environment for the average user to work
in. Linux can be just as good and is very feasible. So the distro
cobblers can do it if they just put their minds to it. First... they
should test out their claims and their software on a few well known
platforms to work out the kinks. Secondly, the yast can be improved
along with others to make software installation. When it downloads
software from a user decision, then it can unzip or untar the package,
install the package in the appropriate places, do dependency checks...
and if the dependency check fails, it should go out and search for the
required libs as needed to complete the job without user intervention
until the install is complete. Like I said, if Apple can do it, so can
Linux.
>
>>> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for
>>> years on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily
>>> and reliably.
>>>
>>>
>> It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
>> flatfish was getting at. Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac and
>> then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox or buy
>> VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't work.
>
> Virtual Box and VMWare don't work on OS X?
>
You don't read too well,... these packages work... and so does linux,
but not all of their packages work inside linux. VCL crashes, their
included media player crashes, and MPlayer comes up but doesn't work.
I've included all the necessary codecs and libraries that other websites
said would be needed to make Mplayer work.
>>>> I've yet to get any media player for dvds to work yet in two different
>>>> virtual machines now. I've tried the latest Fedora, OpenSuse,
>>>> Kubuntu, Ubuntu linuxes, and under two virtual machines and no luck.
>>> For RedHat-based distros, you need to add the rpmfusion repositories,
>>> to get the DVD CSS stuff and certain codecs.
>>>
>>> For Debian, you need to add the debian-multimedia.org repositories.
>>>
>>> You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
>>>
>>>
>> Then the OpenSuse website should have all this stuff made available out
>> in plain view in their installation section, which it isn't.
>
> They don't because it is apparently illegal in some places to include
> various and dvdcss with the distro. But it is very easy to install those
> from easily enabled repositories.
>
Well, they don't work. Why is that?
>> So, which repositories do I need to poke into Yast to get things going
>> for MPlayer? I've already downloaded VLC thru a repository and that one
>> installed ok, but when I launched it... it died. Then I tried it again,
>> and it crashed and up came a pop-up and asked if I wanted to file a bug
>> report. I call that Piss-Poor programming.
>
> Did you file a bug report? Did you look around for filed bug reports?
>
Right after a crash? Yes I did file it. Along with the long report
that the crash analyzer printed out.
I suspect the problem is in VirtualBox.
>>> Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI
>>> package manager.
>>>
>>> Your Google skills have failed you!
>>>
>>> And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip
>>> insulting and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
>>>
>>>
>> Ah,... I'm still here, just waking up to a few thing that should have
>> progressed but has either been overlooked or that the developers just
>> don't get it yet. When I have a fully certified UNIX running and
>> everything that I want to download and automatically install properly, I
>> call that progress and ease of use. You shouldn't *HAVE* to go out and
>> chase down libraries... they should be included. This sort of wild
>> goose chase is a thing of the past... the future is now.
>
> Frequent updates can lead to having to chase dependencies, and IP laws
> cause users of mostly Free systems to have to chase codecs and decryption
> software.
>
Which then leads to an opportunity for the Linux developers to sell a
product.
Like, whynot?
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for years
>>> on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works easily and
>>> reliably.
>> It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
>> flatfish was getting at.
>
> Flatfish is full of shit, Greycloud -- a crank and a troll.
> Although he at least hits the mark once and a while.
I know, but on a few occasions he hits the mark on the head.
But I think he also has fun pulling on a lot of peoples chains too.
I remember when TMax trolled flatfish pretty hard for a while. :-))
Those were fun days.
>
>> Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac and
>> then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox or buy
>> VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't work.
>
> I'm talking about live boxes, of course, but virtual machines should be
> less problematic (except for USB, which apparently is disable in the OSE
> edition).
>
I still think the main problem is VirtualBox. It really is doing some
strange things on occasion, like popping up a "Do you want to shut down
the virtual machine?" or that I have to click on full screen mode to
force it to go to full screen. On bootup of linux it doens't go to full
screen all the time. This VB is at version 3.x now and is still
problematic even for Solaris 10. The really odd thing is that I type in
arch on Linux console and get x64, but on Solaris 10 it still shows i86.
On the processor usage bar in solaris on one installation run it worked
fine,... and the next installation it stays frozen.
So I'm pinning the problem squarely on VirtualBox. VMware won't work
anymore after moving to snow leopard, so I have two choices: either buy
a new updated VMWare Fusion or go out and buy an unloaded PC and then
try Linux on that. I'm sure it would work,... but I have doubts about
the media player working correctly.
>>> You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
>> Then the OpenSuse website should have all this stuff made available out
>> in plain view in their installation section, which it isn't.
>
> Ask Rick. For Debian and Fedora/RedHat, these extra repositories are
> unofficial, but *easy* to find.
>
I found them and added them in. Still no joy.
>> So, which repositories do I need to poke into Yast to get things going
>> for MPlayer? I've already downloaded VLC thru a repository and that one
>> installed ok, but when I launched it... it died. Then I tried it again,
>> and it crashed and up came a pop-up and asked if I wanted to file a bug
>> report. I call that Piss-Poor programming.
>
> Run it from the command-line. Almost certainly, you bypassed a
> dependency that the package manager would have installed for you.
>
Actually, Yast does a good job of doing that. It caught a few
dependency problems and corrected them by searching other repositories.
But I still believe that if Apple can do it on their BSD derived UNIX,
then so can Linux, in regards to a one click download that auto unzips
and installs. There is no reason linux can't do that.
I believe that if the distro cobblers get something like that going,
then Linux will go mainstream overnight. Especially in the webbrowser
where you go to a website like Youtube and it says you need to update
Adobe Flash player... should get it for you automatically.
>>> Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI package
>>> manager.
>>>
>>> Your Google skills have failed you!
>>>
>>> And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip insulting
>>> and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
>> Ah,... I'm still here, just waking up to a few thing that should have
>> progressed but has either been overlooked or that the developers just
>> don't get it yet. When I have a fully certified UNIX running and
>> everything that I want to download and automatically install properly, I
>> call that progress and ease of use. You shouldn't *HAVE* to go out and
>> chase down libraries... they should be included. This sort of wild
>> goose chase is a thing of the past... the future is now.
>
> And, indeed, with Debian, and even with Fedora (though a little less so),
> I experience all that you want *now*. It was not all that bad in the past,
> for a programmer type, but now that stuff is *incredibly* easy, barring the
> occasional corner case.
>
> Linux (and BSD) *has* progressed, amazingly so. Maybe OpenSUse is a little
> more primitive in DVD/codecs arena, I don't know, as I have never used SUse.
>
Which one is your preference? Debian or Fedora?
BTW, my first Linux distro was Slackware a long time ago.
Chris Ahlstrom
> I know, but on a few occasions he hits the mark on the head.
> But I think he also has fun pulling on a lot of peoples chains too.
> I remember when TMax trolled flatfish pretty hard for a while. :-))
> Those were fun days.
Yeah, TMax was the one whom I first saw use the phrase
Monopoly crapware
> I still think the main problem is VirtualBox. It really is doing some
> strange things on occasion, like popping up a "Do you want to shut down
> the virtual machine?" or that I have to click on full screen mode to
> force it to go to full screen. On bootup of linux it doens't go to full
> screen all the time. This VB is at version 3.x now and is still
> problematic even for Solaris 10. The really odd thing is that I type in
> arch on Linux console and get x64, but on Solaris 10 it still shows i86.
> On the processor usage bar in solaris on one installation run it worked
> fine,... and the next installation it stays frozen.
> So I'm pinning the problem squarely on VirtualBox. VMware won't work
> anymore after moving to snow leopard, so I have two choices: either buy
> a new updated VMWare Fusion or go out and buy an unloaded PC and then
> try Linux on that. I'm sure it would work,... but I have doubts about
> the media player working correctly.
VirtualBox is nice, but even XP can act a little flaky in it.
I had VirtualBox on Debian go belly up on my the other day. Looked like a
Debian update caused it. I uninstalled all the VirtualBox packages,
reinstalled the bare bones, then, when VirtualBox still wouldn't run,
did the two-step it told me to do, and then it worked again.
>> Ask Rick. For Debian and Fedora/RedHat, these extra repositories are
>> unofficial, but *easy* to find.
>
> I found them and added them in. Still no joy.
Dang.
However, make sure you fully undo any abortive work you might have done
(like installing stuff from source or lesser-know repositories).
> Actually, Yast does a good job of doing that. It caught a few
> dependency problems and corrected them by searching other repositories.
> But I still believe that if Apple can do it on their BSD derived UNIX,
> then so can Linux, in regards to a one click download that auto unzips
> and installs. There is no reason linux can't do that.
Well, my Linux (Debian) does just that.
> I believe that if the distro cobblers get something like that going,
> then Linux will go mainstream overnight. Especially in the webbrowser
> where you go to a website like Youtube and it says you need to update
> Adobe Flash player... should get it for you automatically.
I've never had that work right.
> Which one is your preference? Debian or Fedora?
I prefer Debian still, though I have only installed Fedora on one machine, a
laptop.
Debian has a lot more packages. For example, it has a large number of
gkrellm plugins, while Fedora lacks most of them.
Debian, I think, handles assembling the distro a little better.
Debian's package management is more stable and a lot faster, as far as I can
tell.
Fedora also layers on the SELinux and PulseAudio systems. Your mileage may
vary on those.
With either one, though, I am able to set things up the way I like them.
> BTW, my first Linux distro was Slackware a long time ago.
I tried that a couple of years ago, and it was easy to configure, though not
so easy to track dependencies.
--
Q: How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: You won't find a lawyer who can change a light bulb. Now, if
you're looking for a lawyer to screw a light bulb...
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> Rick wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 18:01:29 -0700, GreyCloud wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>>>>
>>>>> DFS wrote:
>>> It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
>>> flatfish was getting at. Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac and
>>> then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox or buy
>>> VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't work.
>>
>> Virtual Box and VMWare don't work on OS X?
>>
>
> You don't read too well,... these packages work... and so does linux,
> but not all of their packages work inside linux. VCL crashes, their
> included media player crashes, and MPlayer comes up but doesn't work.
> I've included all the necessary codecs and libraries that other websites
> said would be needed to make Mplayer work.
...to be clear this is supposed to be Ubuntu we're talking about? This is
the distribution that has the best 3rd party codec handling bar none? It's
better than Windows and lightyears beyond MacOS (due to an NIH mindset
more than anything else).
Open the file, let the media player use the package manager to sort out
the requirements and then be merrily on your way. Dreamy compared to MacOS.
[deletia]
>> They don't because it is apparently illegal in some places to include
>> various and dvdcss with the distro. But it is very easy to install those
>> from easily enabled repositories.
>>
>
> Well, they don't work. Why is that?
You need to install 3rd party software. You've never installed 3rd
party software on whatever platform you happen to be using?
What's to sell?
The Ubuntu packaging system takes care of everything that is not a
possible violation of the DMCA. For the relative inconvenience of needing
to install decss manually the fact that everything else is automatic is
not a bad tradeoff really.
--
Sophocles wants his cut. |||
/ | \
Rick
And, AGAIN, Apple is a single company. Linux is not.
Yast doesn't unzip or untar. I highly doubt it ever will. It was not
designed to extract and install zip or tar files.
When a user installs software from a repository using Yast, dependencies
are installed.
>
>
>>>> Bullshit, Greycloud. A lot of us here have been doing this stuff for
>>>> years on Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora, and it almost always works
>>>> easily and reliably.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It isn't bullshit and you know it. Now I'm beginning to see what
>>> flatfish was getting at. Tell you what... go out and buy a new iMac
>>> and then download your favorite Linux distro and also Suns VirtualBox
>>> or buy VMWare fusion and then get back to me on why these just don't
>>> work.
>>
>> Virtual Box and VMWare don't work on OS X?
>>
>>
> You don't read too well,...
Actually, I read quite well.
> these packages work... and so does linux,
> but not all of their packages work inside linux. VCL crashes, their
> included media player crashes, and MPlayer comes up but doesn't work.
> I've included all the necessary codecs and libraries that other websites
> said would be needed to make Mplayer work.
Maybe, just maybe you have a borked install.
>
>
>>>>> I've yet to get any media player for dvds to work yet in two
>>>>> different virtual machines now. I've tried the latest Fedora,
>>>>> OpenSuse, Kubuntu, Ubuntu linuxes, and under two virtual machines
>>>>> and no luck.
>>>> For RedHat-based distros, you need to add the rpmfusion repositories,
>>>> to get the DVD CSS stuff and certain codecs.
>>>>
>>>> For Debian, you need to add the debian-multimedia.org repositories.
>>>>
>>>> You add them by finding and installing a small RPM or DEB package.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Then the OpenSuse website should have all this stuff made available
>>> out in plain view in their installation section, which it isn't.
>>
>> They don't because it is apparently illegal in some places to include
>> various and dvdcss with the distro. But it is very easy to install
>> those from easily enabled repositories.
>>
>>
> Well, they don't work. Why is that?
Dunno. I don't have access to your system to look around.
>
>
>>> So, which repositories do I need to poke into Yast to get things going
>>> for MPlayer? I've already downloaded VLC thru a repository and that
>>> one installed ok, but when I launched it... it died. Then I tried it
>>> again, and it crashed and up came a pop-up and asked if I wanted to
>>> file a bug report. I call that Piss-Poor programming.
>>
>> Did you file a bug report? Did you look around for filed bug reports?
>>
>>
> Right after a crash? Yes I did file it. Along with the long report
> that the crash analyzer printed out.
> I suspect the problem is in VirtualBox.
If the problem is with VirtualBox, how is it a Linux distro problem?
>
>>>> Once that is done, all the stuff you want is available in your GUI
>>>> package manager.
>>>>
>>>> Your Google skills have failed you!
>>>>
>>>> And whatever happened to the old Greycloud, the one that would rip
>>>> insulting and stupid jerks like DFS a new half-inch?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Ah,... I'm still here, just waking up to a few thing that should have
>>> progressed but has either been overlooked or that the developers just
>>> don't get it yet. When I have a fully certified UNIX running and
>>> everything that I want to download and automatically install properly,
>>> I call that progress and ease of use. You shouldn't *HAVE* to go out
>>> and chase down libraries... they should be included. This sort of
>>> wild goose chase is a thing of the past... the future is now.
>>
>> Frequent updates can lead to having to chase dependencies, and IP laws
>> cause users of mostly Free systems to have to chase codecs and
>> decryption software.
>>
> Which then leads to an opportunity for the Linux developers to sell a
> product.
> Like, why not?
Mandriva sells software. Go look there.
--
Rick
Snit
4:26 PM:
...
>> I've just showed you proof that a UNIX system can be integrated together
>> to provide a very user friendly environment for the average user to work
>> in. Linux can be just as good and is very feasible. So the distro
>> cobblers can do it if they just put their minds to it. First... they
>> should test out their claims and their software on a few well known
>> platforms to work out the kinks. Secondly, the yast can be improved
>> along with others to make software installation. When it downloads
>> software from a user decision, then it can unzip or untar the package,
>> install the package in the appropriate places, do dependency checks...
>> and if the dependency check fails, it should go out and search for the
>> required libs as needed to complete the job without user intervention
>> until the install is complete. Like I said, if Apple can do it, so can
>> Linux.
>
> And, AGAIN, Apple is a single company. Linux is not.
In your opinion.
By the way, does your opinion imply you do not think Linux, not being a
company, cannot grow to be as good as OS X because Apple is? If not, why
even bring up the comment about Apple being a company?
> Yast doesn't unzip or untar. I highly doubt it ever will. It was not
> designed to extract and install zip or tar files.
In your opinion.
> When a user installs software from a repository using Yast, dependencies
> are installed.
In your opinion.
...
>> You don't read too well,...
>
> Actually, I read quite well.
In your opinion.
>> these packages work... and so does linux,
>> but not all of their packages work inside linux. VCL crashes, their
>> included media player crashes, and MPlayer comes up but doesn't work.
>> I've included all the necessary codecs and libraries that other websites
>> said would be needed to make Mplayer work.
>
> Maybe, just maybe you have a borked install.
And maybe not!
...
>>> They don't because it is apparently illegal in some places to include
>>> various and dvdcss with the distro. But it is very easy to install
>>> those from easily enabled repositories.
>>>
>>>
>> Well, they don't work. Why is that?
>
> Dunno. I don't have access to your system to look around.
In your opinion.
...
>> Right after a crash? Yes I did file it. Along with the long report
>> that the crash analyzer printed out.
>> I suspect the problem is in VirtualBox.
>
> If the problem is with VirtualBox, how is it a Linux distro problem?
Is it your opinion that it is not?
...
>>> Frequent updates can lead to having to chase dependencies, and IP laws
>>> cause users of mostly Free systems to have to chase codecs and
>>> decryption software.
>>>
>> Which then leads to an opportunity for the Linux developers to sell a
>> product.
>> Like, why not?
>
> Mandriva sells software.
In your opinion.
> Go look there.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
GreyCloud
Unless you are trying to run Linux under a virtual machine under OS X.
So far it just doesn't work. I lay the blame on the virtual machine,
not linux.
GreyCloud
> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> I know, but on a few occasions he hits the mark on the head.
>> But I think he also has fun pulling on a lot of peoples chains too.
>> I remember when TMax trolled flatfish pretty hard for a while. :-))
>> Those were fun days.
>
> Yeah, TMax was the one whom I first saw use the phrase
>
> Monopoly crapware
I wonder where he is today?
>
>> I still think the main problem is VirtualBox. It really is doing some
>> strange things on occasion, like popping up a "Do you want to shut down
>> the virtual machine?" or that I have to click on full screen mode to
>> force it to go to full screen. On bootup of linux it doens't go to full
>> screen all the time. This VB is at version 3.x now and is still
>> problematic even for Solaris 10. The really odd thing is that I type in
>> arch on Linux console and get x64, but on Solaris 10 it still shows i86.
>> On the processor usage bar in solaris on one installation run it worked
>> fine,... and the next installation it stays frozen.
>> So I'm pinning the problem squarely on VirtualBox. VMware won't work
>> anymore after moving to snow leopard, so I have two choices: either buy
>> a new updated VMWare Fusion or go out and buy an unloaded PC and then
>> try Linux on that. I'm sure it would work,... but I have doubts about
>> the media player working correctly.
>
> VirtualBox is nice, but even XP can act a little flaky in it.
>
I've had much better luck with VMWare Fusion, but I'm going to drop
these VMs until they mature.
> I had VirtualBox on Debian go belly up on my the other day. Looked like a
> Debian update caused it. I uninstalled all the VirtualBox packages,
> reinstalled the bare bones, then, when VirtualBox still wouldn't run,
> did the two-step it told me to do, and then it worked again.
>
Believe me, VirtualBox is flaky on OS X. On occasion it will just pop
up a dialog box asking if I want to shut down the virtual machine while
I'm in the middle of doing something on Suse.
Looks like I'm going to have to buy a new PC without anything on it.
Debian is the one distro I have never used, so that one will have to be
the next go on a new PC.
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> On 2010-01-08, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 18:01:29 -0700, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>>> GreyCloud pulled this Usenet boner:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DFS wrote:
[deletia]
>>> product.
>>> Like, whynot?
>>
>> What's to sell?
>>
>> The Ubuntu packaging system takes care of everything that is not a
>> possible violation of the DMCA. For the relative inconvenience of needing
>> to install decss manually the fact that everything else is automatic is
>> not a bad tradeoff really.
>>
>
> Unless you are trying to run Linux under a virtual machine under OS X.
> So far it just doesn't work. I lay the blame on the virtual machine,
> not linux.
Any chance that we will ever be able to test MacOS under similar
circumstances?
--
Apple: Because only pirates are power users. |||
/ | \