Why do people still use canvas?
Niall
My thoughts
1. Tradition
2. Lightweight
3. "springy" feel
4. Weave is much deeper that gessoed board
Having said that, I only ever use a rigid plastic foam board
that I buy through work (signmakers)
Its 15 euros (about 15 dollars) for an 4' x 8' board (5mm thick)
its light, non porous, easy to cut & sand edges
and has an light eggshell finish and is white in colour
I can easily put edges on it that are strong enough to
hang off and look like canvas edges
(for frameless gallery mount style)
Cheers
Niall
Richard <cool_a...@z.com> wrote in message
news:fttf2vovg0ogpinkv...@4ax.com...
> *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>
>
> You can buy plywood and hardboard very cheaply at places like Home
> Depot, and probably even cheaper at some other places. Why bother to
> buy a canvas? Hardboard is much more sturdy and helps oil paintings
> avoid cracking. I saw some "natural fiber" boards and plywood at an
> art store and they cost way more than the same thing at Home depot.
> I recently got some free hardboard & plywood from someone who
> remodeled their home and had lumber left over. I plan on gessoing them
> and painting on them with oil paint. BTW, I think the uncut canvas at
> The Art Store is a rip off, because it costs half as much as a
> streched & gessoed canvases they sell. If you throw in the price of
> their stretcher bars, you end up paying about the same and therefore
> save no money by stretching your own canvas. And why go to all that
> trouble or expense when you can just gesso a piece of hardboard? I've
> also started making my own frames with home molding and a miter box.
> I'm not going to pay $40 to $200 for a frame. Also, if I make my own
> frames and can do woodcarving, I can customize them to my own taste
> and my individual paintings.
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeed.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== 100,000 Groups! - 19 Servers! - Unlimited Download! =-----
>
G*rd*n
| You can buy plywood and hardboard very cheaply at places like Home
| Depot, and probably even cheaper at some other places. Why bother to
| buy a canvas? Hardboard is much more sturdy and helps oil paintings
| avoid cracking. I saw some "natural fiber" boards and plywood at an
| art store and they cost way more than the same thing at Home depot.
| I recently got some free hardboard & plywood from someone who
| remodeled their home and had lumber left over. I plan on gessoing them
| and painting on them with oil paint. BTW, I think the uncut canvas at
| The Art Store is a rip off, because it costs half as much as a
| streched & gessoed canvases they sell. If you throw in the price of
| their stretcher bars, you end up paying about the same and therefore
| save no money by stretching your own canvas. And why go to all that
| trouble or expense when you can just gesso a piece of hardboard? I've
| also started making my own frames with home molding and a miter box.
| I'm not going to pay $40 to $200 for a frame. Also, if I make my own
| frames and can do woodcarving, I can customize them to my own taste
| and my individual paintings.
I have been warned (in this newsgroup) that many kinds of
board, including masonite and plywood, may emit gasses which
can loosen or otherwise affect the paint on them. Another
disadvantage is fragility -- often the edges, especially the
corners, of a large painting on hardboard get broken. Weight
may also be a problem for larger works.
--
(<><>) /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 11/14/02 <-adv't
Dr. Slick
> I have been warned (in this newsgroup) that many kinds of
> board, including masonite and plywood, may emit gasses which
> can loosen or otherwise affect the paint on them. Another
> disadvantage is fragility -- often the edges, especially the
> corners, of a large painting on hardboard get broken. Weight
> may also be a problem for larger works.
Plywood does have a tendancy to chip on the edges. A canvas on
the other hand, if it is dropped and the stretcher bars damaged, can
be re-mounted on new stretcher bars.
Also, the springiness and bounce of a stretched canvas is
supposed to be better for the smoothness of a paint stroke. You won't
get the same feel with a canvas board.
Masonite, although it may not last as long, seems to be a great
background color to work on without the gesso (see Frazetta).
Slick
Bob C
> Also, the springiness and bounce of a stretched canvas is
> supposed to be better for the smoothness of a paint stroke. You won't
> get the same feel with a canvas board.
>
All painting supports give you a different feel. Canvas stretched on
stretcher bars is different from canvas on a panel is different from
unstretched canvas is different from painting on panel is different from
painting on paper. Cotton duck canvas is different from rough linen is
different from smooth linen. I paint on all of these (except for
unstretched canvas) selecting the support which best suits the work.
- Bob C.
Peter H.M. Brooks
"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
> I have been warned (in this newsgroup) that many kinds of
> board, including masonite and plywood, may emit gasses
>
kinds of fuckwit emit gasses of a noxious quality...
Don't worry, if you ignore them and keep to the artistic essentials you
might be fine!
--
The grandeur of real art, on the contrary, . . . is to rediscover, grasp
again and lay before us that reality from which we become more and more
separated as the formal knowledge which we substitute for it grows in
thickness and imperviousness--that reality which there is grave danger we
might die without ever having known and yet which is simply our life, life
as it really is, life disclosed and made clear . . . .
- Vladimir Nabokov "Marcel Proust (1871-1922)"
Ivor E. Black
>I paint on all of these (except for
>unstretched canvas) selecting the support which best suits the work.
And one other important reason - you can roll up
a bunch of canvases whereas you can't roll up
hardboards or other rigid supports. My inventory
is so large that I'd have to have four times
the room I now have to store stretched canvases
or other rigid paintings that are now rolled and
kept in one ordinary closet.
Noumenon
you are really indefatigable!
Number of naive questions you have asked for last few months can fill up
a heavy volume.
It's good that you do some thinking, but do you do some reading and
researching
on you own?
It's damn easy to ask someone, when you are too bloody LAZY to find
answers by yourself!
Gosh!...
=== why BOARD is WORSE than CANVAS: ===
- less durability [in general];
- higher moisture absorption (with subsequent corruption of paint
structure) OR;
- [on the contrary] faster shrivelling with subsequent scaling off of
paint;
- warping;
- disintegration of glue and binding media of fibre in board;
- faster oxidation of paint [due to mentioned factors and
irregular/uneven breathing of board -
difference in density, etc];
The use of board can be improved by finding proper primer & gesso,
and yet it's less dependable and NOT TESTED by TIME as canvas...
[not to say that it's aesthetically bad - painting on board looks cheap
and cheesy
like an outdoor billboard]
Weaving the Conundrum
-=| NOUMENON |=-
NightMist
wrote:
>
>You can buy plywood and hardboard very cheaply at places like Home
>Depot, and probably even cheaper at some other places. Why bother to
>buy a canvas? Hardboard is much more sturdy and helps oil paintings
>avoid cracking. I saw some "natural fiber" boards and plywood at an
>art store and they cost way more than the same thing at Home depot.
>I recently got some free hardboard & plywood from someone who
>remodeled their home and had lumber left over. I plan on gessoing them
>and painting on them with oil paint.
I paint a fair bit on hardboard, though wood panals are my preference.
I prefer a rigid surface to the springier surface you get with canvas.
I also find that I like the ability to control the surface texture,
which you can also do with canvas just not as easily IME.
The thing with plywood though, is you have to be picky about it.
Construction grade weighs a ton and the surface is just not the thing.
Furniture grade on the other hand, while more expensive, is lighter
and has a very suitable faceing.
May I suggest sealing the board , either hardboard or wood, first?
It's also easy to cradle either wood or hardboard if you need to
bypass framing for some reason. You should brace anything 24" square
or larger to prevent warping anyway.
>BTW, I think the uncut canvas at
>The Art Store is a rip off, because it costs half as much as a
>streched & gessoed canvases they sell. If you throw in the price of
>their stretcher bars, you end up paying about the same and therefore
>save no money by stretching your own canvas. And why go to all that
>trouble or expense when you can just gesso a piece of hardboard? I've
>also started making my own frames with home molding and a miter box.
>I'm not going to pay $40 to $200 for a frame. Also, if I make my own
>frames and can do woodcarving, I can customize them to my own taste
>and my individual paintings.
I use canvas duck from:
When I have a commission that specifies canvas.
I have a mitre box and hand planes and a dremel, so making stretcher
bars is not all that traumatic.
Framemaking is not all that hard, you just have to remember that very
likely the buyer is going to remove the painting from your tasteful
and complimentary frame, and stick it in some gilt and gaudy
monstrosity. (G) I'd love to hire my framing out, but the only guy
who does it locally is a complete idiot.
Barbara
--
everybody is somebodys chew toy
Nomen Nescio
> Why bother to buy a canvas? Hardboard is
> much more sturdy and helps oil paintings
> avoid cracking.
The only reason is ignorance. Artists are generally the least cerebral
people you will ever meet. They simply don't read anything technical,
especially not quasi-scientific books like Ralph Mayer's "The Artists
Handbook". Mayer (and others!) calls canvas the "worst" support for
painting, and the guaranteed eventual failure of canvas-supported
works underlines the veracity of his words. The other reason is
tradition -- artists are the most reactionary Luddites you'll ever
find on the planet, for example their attitude to water-soluble oils,
which are struggling to gain acceptance despite the toxicity of
solvent-based oils.
Other people in this thread have maligned Masonite in various ways,
citing constituents that outgas or some such rubbish. This is all
bullshit from lazy, uneducated minds who do not want to tax themselves
with research into the facts. Masonite is a pure, natural product of
heat and pressure-compressed woodpulp that glues together with natural
wood lignins released by the pulp under pressure. *Some* Masonite has
other additives (formaldehyde or other water-repulsives), but not the
common-or-garden masonite/hardboard, which is light brown in color.
With a few coats of acrylic gesso to prevent bleeding of lignin to the
picture surface, and a frame or bracing to protect the edges, it gives
a CHEAP, PERMANENT, ARCHIVAL support.
I use 5mm (quarter inch) thick Masonite so that I don't have to use
bracing/cradling. It's a little heavy for very large works, is all. If
you want to go super-large, look at diptych/triptych format or use
another support.
Some Painter
> You can buy plywood and hardboard very cheaply at places like Home
> Depot, and probably even cheaper at some other places. Why bother to
> buy a canvas? Hardboard is much more sturdy and helps oil paintings
> avoid cracking. I saw some "natural fiber" boards and plywood at an
> art store and they cost way more than the same thing at Home depot.
> I recently got some free hardboard & plywood from someone who
> remodeled their home and had lumber left over. I plan on gessoing them
> and painting on them with oil paint. BTW, I think the uncut canvas at
> The Art Store is a rip off, because it costs half as much as a
> streched & gessoed canvases they sell. If you throw in the price of
> their stretcher bars, you end up paying about the same and therefore
> save no money by stretching your own canvas. And why go to all that
> trouble or expense when you can just gesso a piece of hardboard? I've
> also started making my own frames with home molding and a miter box.
> I'm not going to pay $40 to $200 for a frame. Also, if I make my own
> frames and can do woodcarving, I can customize them to my own taste
> and my individual paintings.
The only reason is ignorance. Artists are generally the least cerebral
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
k
The eye should not be lead where there is nothing to see.
Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
Noumenon <ArtE...@Concentric.Net> wrote in message
news:3E2916AB...@Concentric.Net...
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
k
The eye should not be lead where there is nothing to see.
Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:99803551397786a2...@dizum.com...
Ivor E. Black
dau...@my.studio says...
>I use 5mm (quarter inch) thick Masonite so that I don't have to use
>bracing/cradling. It's a little heavy for very large works, is all. If you
>want to go super-large, look at diptych/triptych format or use another
>support.
I am a long-time user of Masonite and similar
hardboard who agrees with you. I've painted full
sheets of 1/4 inch thick masonite and can vouch
for it's weight and lack of need for stiffeners,
but a heavy frame is almost a must for wall
hanging. I have no problems with 1/8 inch thick
hardboard bowing in dimensions up to about
36 inches. Beyond that size I'd opt for the 1/4
inch. My oils AND acrylics on gessoed hardboard
date back over 30 years and look as good as the
day they were painted and some were never
framed. Edge chipping of hardboard IS a concern
and proper handling to avoid same is a must.
Incidentally, the screen pattern on the back side
of true Masonite panels is a real challenge to
paint on. I tried it a few times and it has a
marvelous effect, depending on the subject matter.
I've seen other artists do the same with good
results.
G*rd*n
| dau...@my.studio says...
| >I use 5mm (quarter inch) thick Masonite so that I don't have to use
| >bracing/cradling. It's a little heavy for very large works, is all. If you
| >want to go super-large, look at diptych/triptych format or use another
| >support.
bla...@noemailever.com (Ivor E. Black):
| I am a long-time user of Masonite and similar
| hardboard who agrees with you. I've painted full
| sheets of 1/4 inch thick masonite and can vouch
| for it's weight and lack of need for stiffeners,
| but a heavy frame is almost a must for wall
| hanging. I have no problems with 1/8 inch thick
| hardboard bowing in dimensions up to about
| 36 inches. Beyond that size I'd opt for the 1/4
| inch. My oils AND acrylics on gessoed hardboard
| date back over 30 years and look as good as the
| day they were painted and some were never
| framed. Edge chipping of hardboard IS a concern
| and proper handling to avoid same is a must.
|
| Incidentally, the screen pattern on the back side
| of true Masonite panels is a real challenge to
| paint on. I tried it a few times and it has a
| marvelous effect, depending on the subject matter.
| I've seen other artists do the same with good
| results.
Some of the problems which may occur with masonite,
including the outgassing derided by "anonymous", are mentioned
in the threads in which the following messages are embedded.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=KfxUOOGuu0U4IBBLRX8gbKmFbGUq%404ax.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=37c008e0.0%40oracle.zianet.com
One of the messages summarizes the problems as:
1- the outgassing problem in which formaldehyde is emitted
from the wood causing cracks and bubbles in the painting
2- bends easily under gravity and pull of the paint/gesso
3- is very sensitive to water which makes it rot
4- is easily damaged on the sides and corners
I used to have some paitings on masonite that got to be about
30 years old before they were destroyed, and I observed no
changes to the paint that I could positively identify as due
to chemical interaction with the masonite. However, they
tended to bend regardless of gravity; I believe this is due
to mechanical difference between the painted and unpainted
sides of the board. To solve this problem, one can put some
acrylic medium on the back (assuming one is working with
acrylics) which ought to balance the possible contraction of
the paint on the front.
As for the other problems, I was merely passing along what
was written here a few years ago.
Nomen Nescio
| Some of the problems which may
| occur with masonite, including the
| outgassing derided by "anonymous",
| are mentioned in the threads in which
| the following messages are embedded.
| [snip]
| One of the messages summarizes the
| problems as: 1- the outgassing
| problem in which formaldehyde is
| emitted from the wood causing cracks
| and bubbles in the painting 2- bends
| easily under gravity and pull of the
| paint/gesso 3- is very sensitive to
| water which makes it rot 4- is easily
| damaged on the sides and corners I
| used to have some paintings on
| masonite that got to be about 30 years
| old before they were destroyed, and I
| observed no changes to the paint that I
| could positively identify as due to
| chemical interaction with the masonite.
| However, they tended to bend
| regardless of gravity; I believe this is
| due to mechanical difference between
| the painted and unpainted sides of the
| board. To solve this problem, one can
| put some acrylic medium on the back
| (assuming one is working with acrylics)
| which ought to balance the possible
| contraction of the paint on the front.
| As for the other problems, I was
| merely passing along what was written
| here a few years ago.
I re-checked my new, updated copy of the Mayer book, and you are
correct. The original Mayer book was *extremely* critical of canvas,
calling it the worst support imaginable, and praising Masonite as the
best. The new book, extensively edited not by the careful and
pernickety Mayer but by his _son_, goes the other way entirely,
lambasting Masonite and saying very little that is critical of canvas.
I prefer the father's opinions to the son's, and here's why:
1) The son does not have any idea what he is talking about technically
when it comes to Masonite. On one page (p. 300) he talks about the
outgassing "adhesives" that are "added to Masonite", then on another
(303) he describes how Masonite is made _without_ adhesives.
Masonite's only adhesive (I called the manufacturer and checked) is
lignin, part of the wood itself, released during the compaction
process. Lignin does not outgas. What outgasses in Masonite? Mayer
Jnr. Says it is "acidic vapors" made far worse by the "adhesives". I
invite you to call your local Masonite manufacturer and enquire into
the process of making Masonite yourselves. I am talking here of "wet
process" or "wet/dry" process UNTEMPERED Masonite only. More technical
details here:
http://www.eggtempera.com/rtdarticle.html
2) The objection to "chipping of edges" is trivial. If framed, this
chipping simply does not occur at all.
3) My own experience. I have never, ever seen any of the flaws
described occur, even in old paintings on Masonite. My own paintings
going back over twenty five years are still perfect. What does that
tell you? Are the paintings suddenly going to fail in another ten
years? Pah–leeze! The stories you hear about very old Masonite
paintings falling off their supports and so on, if true (and I doubt
them), may have a lot to do with the completely different make-up of
the paints and boards of those early days. What sort of priming was
used (vinyl or true acrylic?) What sort of board (tempered or
untempered?) How many layers of ground (one, two, three? I use three)
etc
In addition, the objection, voiced by a poster, about the "expansion
and contraction" of masonite boards is risible. Masonite’s
hydro-expansivity is 0.25%. I invite you to compare that to the
unbelievable degree of movement experienced in a canvas due to
hydro-expansivity! LOL!
In summary, I have heard absolutely no reliable reason as to why
Masonite is not the premier support for easel painting. I distrust
*completely* the opinions of Mayer Jnr. His about–face on canvas is a
sure sign he is not as trustworthy a source as his father. IMO, he
suffers from "woolly thinking". His amendments to his father's book
are slapdash, incomplete and poorly researched. I now seriously
question the usefulness of the new edition.
Nomen Nescio
> The new book, extensively edited not by the
> careful and pernickety Mayer but by his
> _son_, goes the other way entirely,
My mistake: the book was changed by someone called Steven Sheehan, who
is not related to Mayer as far as I know. All of my criticisms of the
new editor still apply.
Ivor E. Black
says...
>3) My own experience. I have never, ever seen any of the flaws
>described occur, even in old paintings on Masonite.
I haven't either, and as I've already stated,
my oldest paintings on Masonite, or an equivalent
hardboard, are over 30 years old. And I have
used TEMPERED as well as untempered with equal
success.
BUT - and this is crucial - I have always
sanded the Masonite with a heavy duty electric
sander and the coarsest sandpaper I could buy
before applying gesso to BOTH front and back
sides of the board. And always at least two
coats. There has been no warp, no woof, and
no other problems that I've encountered.
I'm sorry to hear the Mayer book is now being
cheapened by thoughtless editing. I've always
referred to it as the "Bible for painters."
Ivor E. Black
I have found Masonite and other similar
hardboards to be superior surfaces for
encaustics too. I like the rough screen
pattern side of Masonite for that medium.
Andrew D
>Richard <cool_a...@z.com>:
>| You can buy plywood and hardboard very cheaply at places like Home
>| Depot, and probably even cheaper at some other places. Why bother to
>| buy a canvas? Hardboard is much more sturdy and helps oil paintings
>| avoid cracking. I saw some "natural fiber" boards and plywood at an
>| art store and they cost way more than the same thing at Home depot.
>| I recently got some free hardboard & plywood from someone who
>| remodeled their home and had lumber left over. I plan on gessoing them
>| and painting on them with oil paint. BTW, I think the uncut canvas at
>| The Art Store is a rip off, because it costs half as much as a
>| streched & gessoed canvases they sell. If you throw in the price of
>| their stretcher bars, you end up paying about the same and therefore
>| save no money by stretching your own canvas. And why go to all that
>| trouble or expense when you can just gesso a piece of hardboard? I've
>| also started making my own frames with home molding and a miter box.
>| I'm not going to pay $40 to $200 for a frame. Also, if I make my own
>| frames and can do woodcarving, I can customize them to my own taste
>| and my individual paintings.
>I have been warned (in this newsgroup) that many kinds of
>board, including masonite and plywood, may emit gasses which
>can loosen or otherwise affect the paint on them.
Yet many artists have used such boards for decades. It seems to be just
another one of those great unknowns with opinions varying from technical
to bigoted.
I recently read a book on conservatory and the end result was that they
recommened no surface as the ultimate. Every surface, including
traditional linen canvas, had its drawbacks. For example:
Canvas warps over time and the stretcher bars must be adjusted properly to
cater for the change. For this reason, the stretcher bars must be
"stretcher bars" (adjustable) and not simply a wooden frame.
Canvas left open at the rear is susceptible to being torn or at least
stretched if leant against an object.
Canvas must also be suitably primed to protect it from oil paint.
Andy D.
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
G*rd*n
| >I have been warned (in this newsgroup) that many kinds of
| >board, including masonite and plywood, may emit gasses which
| >can loosen or otherwise affect the paint on them.
right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D):
| Yet many artists have used such boards for decades. ...
So have I. Nevertheless it was my thankless duty to warn all
and sundry about _outgassing_, although one would think as
Usenetniks we would all be highly tolerant of it due to
extended exposure.
--
(<><>) /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 1/19/03 <-adv't
Ivor E. Black
right@the_end.of.my_tether says...
>I recently read a book on conservatory and the end result was that they
>recommened no surface as the ultimate. Every surface, including
>traditional linen canvas, had its drawbacks. For example:
Good observation. The fact that much of the
religious art of past centuries - all those
altar paintings - were done on wood at a time
when the materials were generally inferior to
those we use today speaks volumes for paintings
on wooden supports of all kinds. Even the
Fayam encaustics of the Egyptian era were
done on wood supports. The support is not
the issue, IMO, but rather the way the support
is prepared (primed/gessoed/sized/etc)
for painting that is important.