Masonite - yes or no.
Andrew D.
commercial illustrator (damned computers spoil everything!). Many things
intrigue me when I read the various do's and dont's. One of my major
queries is with regard to supports.
I work in acrylic and notice that a lot of acrylic artists tend to work on
primed (Gesso'd) masonite. However many books suggest masonite is a poor
product to use in framing. Is it the case that acrylic is resistant to the
problems masonite would otherwise cause or are the problems relatively
insignificant compared to its usefulness as a working surface?
I am also interested to hear how other artists go about setting a price on
their originals?
P.S. Any tips on painting decent Australian trees would be appreciated! :)
Andy.
conq...@wantree.com.au
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Moonstone
content I am not sure of problems in framing.however a good alternative is
the mdf or medium density fibreboard available quite cheaply in hardware
shops.
Tina
Andrew D. <wnat...@omen.net.au> wrote in message
news:wnatives-131...@per5-49.wantree.com.au...
Ponderable
would that be masonite?).
I like the surface and the fact that you can go to a lumber yard, have them cut
to size, and come home with 100 panels. I cut 1x2s to size and glue them on the
back (mostly to have something to attach the frame to when the painting is
done). 1x3s for larger paintings (and the larger works are where it gets tricky
as 1x3s tend to warp over time - and also they make for a heavy painting). I do
two panels at a time, face to face, using C clamps.
The one important tip is that before gessoing you have to rough up the surface
with strong sandpaper. Remove the shiny surface and give the gesso enough
texture to sink into. After sanding, remove the dust with a wet spong.
I usually give the panel 3 or 4 coats, sanding with fine sandpaper between
coats.
No advice on painting Australian trees.
Tim Folzenlogen
mesken
wrote:
>I have recently plunged myself into fine art after a few years as a
>commercial illustrator (damned computers spoil everything!). Many things
>intrigue me when I read the various do's and dont's. One of my major
>queries is with regard to supports.
>
>I work in acrylic and notice that a lot of acrylic artists tend to work on
>primed (Gesso'd) masonite. However many books suggest masonite is a poor
>product to use in framing. Is it the case that acrylic is resistant to the
>problems masonite would otherwise cause or are the problems relatively
>insignificant compared to its usefulness as a working surface?
>
There are 4 possible problems with masonite and mdf:
1- the outgassing problem in which formaldehyde is emitted from the
wood causing cracks and bubbles in the painting
2- bends easily under gravity and pull of the paint/gesso
3- is very sensitive to water which makes it rot
4- is easily damaged on the sides and corners
I work on mdf (which is more or less the same type of stuff as
masonite: pressed and glued wood fibres) and I haven't had an
outgassing experience (but I also have 15-20 layers of gesso :-) As a
matter of fact: most experiences I've heard here about masonite or mdf
are good. Mayer talks about the necessity of a 1 mm thick gesso layer
(which is one liter of gesso covering 1 square meter). I guess it's
better to be safe than sorry but the experiences I've heard about it
make this danger a small one (ofcourse I can't speak about this
because my gesso layers are 1 mm thick :-) Besides: nowadays there's a
lot less glue involved (for mdf there are european norms considering
the amount of formaldehyde resulting in class a and class b mdf, class
a has the lesser amount of glue).
The bending problem is a very real one however. If you place leaning
against a wall it will bend due to gravity. This warping is not
permanent however and mdf/masonite will not warp permanently naturally
like wood. It's an absolute necessity to equalize the pull of the
gesso layers by applying some gesso layers (about 4 should be enough)
on the back. One of my 10 mm mdf boards has warped because I used
traditional gesso (with hide glue and stuff) on the front and some
layers of acrylic gesso on the back. The traditional gesso had a much
greater pull than the flexible acrylic gesso and the board is a loss.
Masonite which is not of sufficient thickness should be braced
ofcourse. Do this with glue, not with nails or something for they are
flexible and might tear through the wood.
The water sensitivity is easily dealt with since you do both sides
with primer. Actually I do it all around, the sides as well. Some will
disagree since they believe the gas will not be able to escape through
anything else but the gesso.
The damaging can be dealt with by rounding off the sides and the
corners with sand paper. This has an additional advantage if you cover
everything with gesso. The gesso will be less likely to crack on
rounded edges than on straight edges (as if you have this problem with
acrylic gesso, you do have this problem with traditional gesso
however).
>I am also interested to hear how other artists go about setting a price on
>their originals?
>
Hell, I don't know :-) But realize that typical galleries want about
half. Furthermore you need to take into account the material costs
(and stuff like possible rent for studio, wear and tear of your
kolinskies, etc. :-) Also: how many hours did you spend on it? You
wouldn't want to make less than a toilet cleaner. Ofcourse it needs to
be good stuff if you put a high price on it.
>
>P.S. Any tips on painting decent Australian trees would be appreciated! :)
>
Sorry, never been there :-)
mesken
>I've been working on masonite for years. I see no problem (knock on wood - or
>would that be masonite?).
>
>I like the surface and the fact that you can go to a lumber yard, have them cut
>to size, and come home with 100 panels. I cut 1x2s to size and glue them on the
>back (mostly to have something to attach the frame to when the painting is
>done). 1x3s for larger paintings (and the larger works are where it gets tricky
>as 1x3s tend to warp over time - and also they make for a heavy painting). I do
>two panels at a time, face to face, using C clamps.
>
>The one important tip is that before gessoing you have to rough up the surface
>with strong sandpaper. Remove the shiny surface and give the gesso enough
>texture to sink into. After sanding, remove the dust with a wet spong.
>
Yes, this also goes for its close cousin mdf. There's also a variety
of masonite (I believe they call it tempered masonite) which is
unsuitable for painting because it is treated with an oily substance
to impregnate it. It's darker than the regular masonite.
I remove the dust with a vacuum cleaner and after that I don't use
water to sponge it but ammonia since it removes any traces of grease
(of your hands for example) and it evaporates quickly. It does stink
like hell however and you might even be knocked out so keep some
windows open :-)
>I usually give the panel 3 or 4 coats, sanding with fine sandpaper between
>coats.
>
You might even slightly dampen the dry coat with a wet sponge before
applying the next coat. Makes the brush run easier.
Iva Reddnos
>>I've been working on masonite for years. I see no problem (knock on wood - or
>>would that be masonite?).
>There's also a variety
>of masonite (I believe they call it tempered masonite) which is
>unsuitable for painting because it is treated with an oily substance
>to impregnate it. It's darker than the regular masonite.
The Masonite or NOT Masonite for painters has been
debated ad infinitum in this forum in the past. I
have used Masonite, BOTH tempered and un-tempered
for over 40 years and my works are in as good shape
today as they were when painted, so I come down
on the side of USE IT! Only in the latest editions
of Mayer's ARTIST HANDBOOK have Masonite and similar
products been downgraded -- used to be Mayer thought
it was 'wonderful.'
Iva Reddnos
>There are 4 possible problems with masonite and mdf:
I think that the recent downgrading of Masonite
is due to CONSERVATORS who dislike it for the
reasons you put forth. I am on the side with the
thousands of artists who have used it successfully
over many years of painting and still use it today
for small-sized works. I would not use it for
larger works for all the reasons you mention,
prefering stretched canvas if it gets over about
two feet in any direction.
Ken Beyer
I don't want to get into a 'discussion' about using masonite and other particle based boards as a support; some artist would swear by it other's...well, they just don't like it (personally I do fall into the later!!).
I para-phrase a friend who does picture framing (for me and other artists)....
Masonite, mdf, in fact any particle based board regardless of how good it is to paint on is a real bastard to frame.
.....because of the way and from what it's made, it constantly
sheds dust, regardless as to how well you've sanded the edges, wiped it
down and primed the surface (on both sides!), the bastard stuff keeps shedding
bits, which always make themselves know when you've put the back
on a picture and taped it up!
I've lost countless hours having to remove a tiny speck of dust
that has been missed, the customer bringing back the painting to be re-framed
just to remove this tiny speck.....
[This is of course if you are mounting the picture behind glass with a coloured mount, oil mounting (frame only) presents no real problems.]
So whilst it may be brilliant to paint on, keep in mind the problems that may occur if you don't treat the board properly (I don't know how you do that and be polite at the same time!!) before framing.
Ken Beyer
UK based artist painter
http://www.telinco.co.uk/beyer
"Andrew D." wrote:
I have recently plunged myself into fine art after a few years as a
commercial illustrator (damned computers spoil everything!). Many things
intrigue me when I read the various do's and dont's. One of my major
queries is with regard to supports.
I work in acrylic and notice that a lot of acrylic artists tend to work on
primed (Gesso'd) masonite. However many books suggest masonite is a poor
product to use in framing. Is it the case that acrylic is resistant to the
problems masonite would otherwise cause or are the problems relatively
insignificant compared to its usefulness as a working surface?
I am also interested to hear how other artists go about setting a price on
their originals?P.S. Any tips on painting decent Australian trees would be appreciated! :)
Andy.
lake
feet. Anything larger, it's tendency to warp causes problems.
-Lake
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Larry Seiler
on
> primed (Gesso'd) masonite.
I have paintings done 20 years ago that are perfectly fine on masonite, and
a good number of my peers that have used their originals for the print
industry have sold their works on masonite for many years.....$30,000 on
up.
With the tempered variety...roughing up the surface with sandpaper first,
then several coats of acrylic. The tempered backsides also gessoed should
keep moisture out.
What I am preferring these days is gluing canvas to the board. I was gluing
them to masonite...but found birch veneer much lighter. As a plein air
painter...bringing a half-dozen panels afield, weight adds up and is a
concern.
They're cheap to make and prepare this way. Also...with paint on the
canvas...the board simply is a support and that's all.
I apply the canvas with acrylic medium.
peace,
Larry
Larry Seiler
artist's site- http://cwinc.net/larryseiler
WetCanvas Artists page- (shorter and quicker loading)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Gallery/S/Larry_Seiler/index.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw
Iva Reddnos
says...
>I have paintings done 20 years ago that are perfectly fine on masonite, and
>a good number of my peers that have used their originals for the print
>industry have sold their works on masonite for many years.....$30,000 on
>up.
I see that some of these posts are coming from folks
NOT in the USA so I'm wondering if they're talking
of the same materials we in the USA are used to calling
Masonite. As I've said MANY times now in this forum,
I have used Masonite and similar pressed-wood materials
for nearly 40 years without any problems. AND I've
done commercial installations painted on 4' X 8'
full-size sheets using acrylics that were no problem
from a warping or any other standpoint. These works
were framed by the establishment that commissioned the
mural-sized paintings but NOT protected under glass.
Moving full-size sheets like this from the studio to
the establishment where they were installed could
present a problem if not done carefully. I had no
problems and the eight works were all moved successfully,
albeit locally.
Webb family
In answer to your query about Australian trees - why are they any different
to any other trees? Just curious - I'm a lurker on this newsgroup and
though I enjoy reading, as an *emerging* artist (whatever that may mean-
I don't relate to the label but its on the box I've been relegated into)
feel out of my league amongst the Intelligentsia here but being an Aussie
I can't really understand the problem. If observation isn't the issue,
then
perhaps it would help to look at the work of some of the Australian
greats of landscape art - apart from the obvious ones such as Arthur
Streeton,
Russell Drysdale, Hans Heysen, J.J. Hilder, try Patrick Hockey's early
student work , and Robert Juniper and Fred Williams are superb.
Regards,
Maggie
Brother Alphabet
"Andrew D." wrote:
> I have recently plunged myself into fine art after a few years as a
> commercial illustrator (damned computers spoil everything!).
So many things about that line give me those "make snide remarks"
impulses. Must...resist...urge...to...use...sar...casm...
> Many things
> intrigue me when I read the various do's and dont's. One of my major
> queries is with regard to supports.
"Jockey" makes a decent product. :)
> I work in acrylic and notice that a lot of acrylic artists tend to work on
> primed (Gesso'd) masonite. However many books suggest masonite is a poor
> product to use in framing.
> Is it the case that acrylic is resistant to the
> problems masonite would otherwise cause or are the problems relatively
> insignificant compared to its usefulness as a working surface?
Masonite, IMO, is a much better surface than canvas, at least for the
work I've been doing for the last few years. In addition, I seriously
hate to stretch a canvas. I know that's almost blasphemous, but I hate
it. It's tedious and boring. As soon as I can afford it, I will hire a
carpenter to do my frames and then maybe I will stretch my own again.
For now, though, gessoing the masonite bores me to death, and that's
about the only preparation work I can stand. :)
I must admit that my first experience with masonite (presentation-wise)
was a nightmare. Thankfully, the frames held up for the show, but within
a few months, the larger pieces FELL OFF THE WALL!!! Argh! :)
Fortunately, the pieces owned by other folks had been reframed after the
show, so only those I kept had the disasters! :)
The problem: BAD BAD BAD framing method combined with extremely heavy
painting. It was suggested to me by a supposed materials expert that F26
industrial adhesive would create a permanent, "unbreakable" seal between
the masonite sheet and the 1x2 strip the frame was made of. This was
true. The F26 did not break at all.
Here's what I was told to do:
1. Apply F26 to 1x2 strip
2. Affix 1x2 to rear of painting
3. Tack 1x2 in place with 1 3/4" brad
4. Tack lattice strips (or other thin wood strips) around edges (using
the 1x2s as the base)
5. Bolt hanging wire (cable) to 1x2s
6. Hang painting
The secret nasty truth: The masonite the fool sold me was finished only
on one side. I did not even THINK about the fibrous quality of
unfinished masonite. I just thought to myself "leroy says it's ok..."
F26, like any other sticky substance, will eventually tear away from
porous or fibrous surfaces, taking huge chunks of that surface with it!
ARGH! So 3 of my favorite pieces from that series were ruined by the F26
staying put while the painting fell away. I was sitting in my living
room playing with my stupid bastard cat (his name was 'Cat', and I
attached words to it which were appropriate to his behavior/demeanor)
when the big one fell. (I remember this clearly, and you'll see why).
The cat was on my lap staring at my eyeballs...I had this fear that he
was looking at them move and planned to swat them when they did...I
would make a face at him and he would put his paw on my upper lip as if
to say "cut that out". So, I had just made a face and Cat had just put
his paw on my upper lip when the 4x8 foot impastoed collage on masonite
popped off its frame. It crashed to the floor. Cat, being feline,
immediately ran...upstairs...taking the most direct route, which was
directly behind my chair, which meant up and over my head, and he did so
with great speed and with claws out. I had a slice down my upper lip to
my chin, among other claw wounds, plus a ruined painting (the keystone
of the series), and some broken knick-knacks.
And the moral of the story is: Don't use F26 to secure wood to masonite.
If the masonite doesn't give, the wood will. :) Best method: Take
masonite to frame store, let them deal with it, sue them if their frames
fall apart.
> I am also interested to hear how other artists go about setting a price on
> their originals?
Originals, as opposed to the "limited edition prints" many sell-outs
make of their paintings?
Hmm. Well, I price mine based upon how big they are. Makes it easier. :)
Hehe. Naw, really I price mine based upon how much time I spent, mow
much materials were used, AND how much I like the piece.
> P.S. Any tips on painting decent Australian trees would be appreciated! :)
Do you want to paint the whole tree or just the trunk or what? I guess a
large brush for the trunks or one of those paint sprayers would work
best if you want to paint the tree, leaves and all. :)
Hutto
Webb family
the locals paint bikinis on them :-)
Regards
Maggie
Nuart26070
Do you find masonite works well with
oil paint? Do you find masonite to be
weather-resistant if in a non-heated
building? Or would it tend to crack?
Ponderable
I paint with oil. I've probably done 700 paintings on masonite. At one time I
worked in unheated studio for a year (NYC - got cold). Never had a problem.
However, there are some very cheap (in quality) brands of masonite out there.
The lumber yard I work with is always getting in something different. One brand
in particular was very poor. You could pick the back stuff off around the
edges. Using that, one time, while tacking a lattice frame to the 1x2 backing,
the 1x2 fell off. This was probably the same problem another mentioned here and
blamed it on the adhesive.
Look for a masonite with a screen imprint on the back. I find this is best for
adhesive purposes. Use 1/4 inch thickness.
Someone else (the guy whose paintings fell apart) said he used adhesive and
then brads. That's ridiculous. Who wants brad heads on the painting surface?
Use C clamps, 4 or 5 inches apart and wood glue. Clamp 2 at a time face to face
so the clamp does not dig into the painting surface.
Of course, you do all this before you gesso or the two surfaces will bond. I'm
sure you have noticed that gesso bonds to gesso even when dry.
I love masonite because I do a lot of scraping off of texture and reworking
areas. Masonite has no give. It's also great if you work with straight lines
for the same reason.
The only real problem you have with it is if you work large, and even then it
is the wood backing which tends to warp. That and the fact that large means
heavy.
I have no idea what these other people are talking about when they say their
edges crumble and stuff. Are they playing soccer with their paintings or
something? You just gotta take care of your work is all.
I mean, some people work on paper. You gonna trell me masonite is more fragile
than paper?
Tim Folzenlogen
Iva Reddnos
says...
>The only real problem you have with it is if you work large, and even then it
>is the wood backing which tends to warp. That and the fact that large means
>heavy.
I don't know what qualifies as "large" but I've NEVER
used any sort of stiffeners OR backing. My full-sheet
of 4' X 8' and half-sheet 4' X 4' works were placed up
against a wall and then framed so that the frames held
them in place. I've also attached similar sized works
to walls using glues made for that purpose called 'panel
adhesives.' These are NOT works that were meant to last
forever -- they were commercial commissions that had a
finite life intended. I handled the full-sheet works with great
care when transporting, of course, but once they were
in place there was no problem with bowing or warping.
I used one-quarter inch thick sheets for these and weight
is definitely on the 'heavy' side, as one might imagine.
I used Masonite brand but now I can't find it any longer,
having to settle for "no-name" varieties made in Canada,
which seem to be just as good as the old Masonite but
don't have the screen impression on one side -- often being
smooth on one side and 'almost-smooth' on the other.
I ALWAYS machine-sand the entire surface before applying
acrylic gesso, using the coarsest sandpaper I can find.
Oh yes. I had two full-sheet works placed back to back
in one fast-food place. They were also framed and formed
a partition between the serving area and the seating area.
Andrew D.
<ja...@ra.msstate.edu> wrote:
+"Andrew D." wrote:
+> I have recently plunged myself into fine art after a few years as a
+> commercial illustrator (damned computers spoil everything!).
+
+So many things about that line give me those "make snide remarks"
+impulses. Must...resist...urge...to...use...sar...casm...
+> Many things
+> intrigue me when I read the various do's and dont's. One of my major
+> queries is with regard to supports.
+"Jockey" makes a decent product. :)
Glad to see your staying serious here ;-) ...
+> I work in acrylic and notice that a lot of acrylic artists tend to work on
+> primed (Gesso'd) masonite. However many books suggest masonite is a poor
+> product to use in framing.
+> Is it the case that acrylic is resistant to the
+> problems masonite would otherwise cause or are the problems relatively
+> insignificant compared to its usefulness as a working surface?
+Masonite, IMO, is a much better surface than canvas, at least for the
+work I've been doing for the last few years. In addition, I seriously
+hate to stretch a canvas. I know that's almost blasphemous, but I hate
+it. It's tedious and boring. As soon as I can afford it, I will hire a
+carpenter to do my frames and then maybe I will stretch my own again.
+For now, though, gessoing the masonite bores me to death, and that's
+about the only preparation work I can stand. :)
+I must admit that my first experience with masonite (presentation-wise)
+was a nightmare. Thankfully, the frames held up for the show, but within
+a few months, the larger pieces FELL OFF THE WALL!!! Argh! :)
+Fortunately, the pieces owned by other folks had been reframed after the
+show, so only those I kept had the disasters! :)
[snip]
+The secret nasty truth: The masonite the fool sold me was finished only
+on one side. I did not even THINK about the fibrous quality of
+unfinished masonite. I just thought to myself "leroy says it's ok..."
+F26, like any other sticky substance, will eventually tear away from
+porous or fibrous surfaces, taking huge chunks of that surface with it!
+ARGH! So 3 of my favorite pieces from that series were ruined by the F26
+staying put while the painting fell away. I was sitting in my living
+room playing with my stupid bastard cat (his name was 'Cat', and I
+attached words to it which were appropriate to his behavior/demeanor)
+when the big one fell. (I remember this clearly, and you'll see why).
+The cat was on my lap staring at my eyeballs...I had this fear that he
+was looking at them move and planned to swat them when they did...I
+would make a face at him and he would put his paw on my upper lip as if
+to say "cut that out". So, I had just made a face and Cat had just put
+his paw on my upper lip when the 4x8 foot impastoed collage on masonite
+popped off its frame. It crashed to the floor. Cat, being feline,
+immediately ran...upstairs...taking the most direct route, which was
+directly behind my chair, which meant up and over my head, and he did so
+with great speed and with claws out. I had a slice down my upper lip to
+my chin, among other claw wounds, plus a ruined painting (the keystone
+of the series), and some broken knick-knacks.
Hmmm, you make a great argument for sticking with illustration board!
[snip]
+> P.S. Any tips on painting decent Australian trees would be appreciated! :)
+Do you want to paint the whole tree or just the trunk or what? I guess a
+large brush for the trunks or one of those paint sprayers would work
+best if you want to paint the tree, leaves and all. :)
Thanks for that, I'll hire an airless spray-kit and an extension ladder
this weekend and get to it. Thanks for taking the time to respond and for
your restraint from drifting into the sarcastic.
Andrew D.
exercise was worthwhile....I think.
I'll run a few of the arguments past some local artists and framers and
try to decide from there if the move to masonite is for me.
br...@wralaw.com
In article <wnatives-131...@per5-49.wantree.com.au>,
nat...@omen.net.au (Andrew D.) wrote:
> I work in acrylic and notice that a lot of acrylic artists tend to
work on
> primed (Gesso'd) masonite. However many books suggest masonite is a
poor
> product to use in framing. Is it the case that acrylic is resistant
to the
> problems masonite would otherwise cause or are the problems relatively
> insignificant compared to its usefulness as a working surface?
The rough side of Masonite can be very absorbent but is otherwise
fine to paint on... The material itself is questionable, often
acidic, volatile, has the chemical signature of something that will
long term damage the paints and maybe not last as a support...
Unfortuantely canvas and paper are still the way to go, there are
"other" supports made for artists that you might try as well...
Ciao...
It would be termed "suitable for student work" but since that work
is that which I am most sentimental about I feel royally screwwed
by the art supply companies, I didn't even know that there were
any archival problems till after my sophomore year in college...
Bryn
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.