SV+ SPOILERS 7-05 "Action" -- Very Good Ep!

KalElFan

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Oct 25, 2007, 12:09:10 AM10/25/07

to

MAJOR SPOILERS here (SPOILER warning in the thread title
and note crossposts). This episode airs tonight (Thursday) on
The CW but aired last night (Wednesday) on the station that
carries it in Toronto. It's a very good, entertaining episode with
lots going on including...

A Warrior Angel movie is shooting in town. One of the Production
Assistants will end up in Belle Reve by the end of this, because
his fiction/reality contrast setting is set to zero. :-) He's offended
that the movie is letting Warrior Angel's girlfriend live, when she
died in the comics source material (issue #5 as Lex describes it
at one point). So the PA tries to kill the actress by rigging her car
in a scene at the beginning, and when that fails he replaces a gun
in a later scene with a real one with a bullet.

Clark saves the actress (Rachel, played by Christina Milian) both
times. The first time no one sees him do any superheroics, but he
does get credit for saving her including a local headline. The second
time the PA sees Clark with the smoking bullet in his hand and mutters
"nice save... superhero". That sends the PA off on a new reality-
skewing tangent, where he tries to kill Lana because only then
will Clark be able to rise to his save-the-world destiny. So true. :-)

Alas, it all ends horribly, as Clark saves Lana. :-)

Well, we knew that would happen. The ep's actually quite a lot of
fun with several good Action scenes and Christina Milian is Hot.
Rachel is grateful for Clark saving her and sends a limo for him
to come to the set (the Talon). Around then it's discovered her
car was rigged and someone's trying to kill her, so she hides
out at the Kent farm. She uses a script love scene rehearsal to
make a move on Clark at one point, which Lana interrupts. But
for as long as that and her other scenes last the Clark-Rachel
chemistry is great. This episode deserves a follow-up for that
reason alone, just like the Alicia episode did. The ending does
hint at one, with the mention of a sequel to the Warrior Angel
movie being scheduled.

Meanwhile, big developments on the Lionel and Lana front. We
see Lionel experiencing his own Stephen King novel, as a crazy
woman named Marilyn has apparently kidnapped him and used
an animal trap on his arm to chain him to the bed. He manages
to escape later in the ep, only to be bonked on the head with a
shovel. PAN over to the crazy woman wielding it and it's Lana. :-)

Yep, Lana's the one who kidnapped Lionel. He doesn't see who
hit him but figures it out by the end. Lois inadvertently helps Lex
learn that something's happening at the property where Lionel is
being held. Lex rescues him. Marilyn almost stops the rescue
but Lionel hits her on the head with something, and then keeps
hitting her on the head until she'd have to be dead. Lex looks
on somewhat appalled and urging him to stop.

In a sense, Lana was more the murderess of Marilyn than
Lionel was. When Lionel confronts Lana later he calls her on
it having anything to do with protecting Clark. He says it was
pure retribution on her part, very Luthor-like, and warns her
she's slipping into a very dark place from which she may not
be able to return.

Earlier in the episode, Clark actually goes to Lex for information on
the Warrior Angel mythos. It's like old times, and what's so Capital-G
Great about it is that it completely invalidates -- NUKES -- much of
the crapfest that was season 6. They'd have these lines in season
6 about how Lex had become so Evil and there was no going back
between him and Clark, and season 7 Clana spoilers hung over the
series like acid rain... but it turns out it's Lana's the Bitch this year
and she's a much better character in that mode. We got hints of it
before this episode, with the $10 million theft of Lex's money and the
control room where she's monitoring him. But this took her darker
still. The pendulum may swing again if this runs 8 seasons, but Lex
had a line to Clark about good/evil not being black and white but
shades of gray. That's what this episode has restored it to vis-a-
vis Lex and Lana individually, and Clark's relationship with Lex,
and it's a much better dynamic for the series.

All Lex's scenes were good, and there was even a hint that the
new Editor Boy may be Lex's stooge. He tried to kill Lois's story
about the property she thought Lex had bought near the dam (the
one where we learn the kidnapping has taken place). Editor Boy
may have another excuse but hopefully something villainish is up
with him, and quick, because he's an awful character otherwise.

So it was a very good episode. There was a Supernatural one
with the same Hollywood movie backdrop last season. It was
reasonable one-shot fun, and I was prepared for this Smallville
ep to be something like that. Not only was it as much or more
fun, it had that Darker Lana element and the restoration of that
"Gray" dynamic that suits the series better. Maybe next week
it all gets wrecked again, but as at the end of S7, Ep 5, the show
is probably in the best creative position it's been in for a couple
of seasons.

No Kara in the ep but she's back next week in 7-6 "Lara" with
Helen Slater playing Lara.

Bradster

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Oct 25, 2007, 3:58:38 AM10/25/07

to

"KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5oaj7bF...@mid.individual.net...

> MAJOR SPOILERS here (SPOILER warning in the thread title
> and note crossposts). This episode airs tonight (Thursday) on
> The CW but aired last night (Wednesday) on the station that
> carries it in Toronto. It's a very good, entertaining episode with
> lots going on including...
>
> A Warrior Angel movie is shooting in town. One of the Production
> Assistants will end up in Belle Reve by the end of this, because
> his fiction/reality contrast setting is set to zero. :-) He's offended
> that the movie is letting Warrior Angel's girlfriend live, when she
> died in the comics source material (issue #5 as Lex describes it
> at one point). So the PA tries to kill the actress by rigging her car
> in a scene at the beginning, and when that fails he replaces a gun
> in a later scene with a real one with a bullet.

I find it annoying when we have a "behind the scenes" viewpoint within the
show. For me, it seems to "staged" and seems to spoil the "suspension of
disbelief" effect. Otherwise, the little in-jokes about celebrity were kind
of fun.

>
> Clark saves the actress (Rachel, played by Christina Milian) both
> times. The first time no one sees him do any superheroics, but he
> does get credit for saving her including a local headline. The second
> time the PA sees Clark with the smoking bullet in his hand and mutters
> "nice save... superhero". That sends the PA off on a new reality-
> skewing tangent, where he tries to kill Lana because only then
> will Clark be able to rise to his save-the-world destiny. So true. :-)
>
> Alas, it all ends horribly, as Clark saves Lana. :-)

Did you catch the camera angle and the effect of Clark jumping off the roof
to save Lana. It was clearly a jump but for Clark to accelerate and catch
up to Lana he would have needed to accelerate which implies some form of
propulsion. For a second there I thought that Clark was going to slow down
and gently place her on the ground. Technically, this wouldn't have been
flying but "controlled falling" and would have not violated the "no flights,
no tights".

I also like how they painted some fans in the forums and blogs as lunatics.
I wonder if they were referring to any handles in particular? ;-)

>
> Well, we knew that would happen. The ep's actually quite a lot of
> fun with several good Action scenes and Christina Milian is Hot.
> Rachel is grateful for Clark saving her and sends a limo for him
> to come to the set (the Talon). Around then it's discovered her
> car was rigged and someone's trying to kill her, so she hides
> out at the Kent farm. She uses a script love scene rehearsal to
> make a move on Clark at one point, which Lana interrupts. But
> for as long as that and her other scenes last the Clark-Rachel
> chemistry is great. This episode deserves a follow-up for that
> reason alone, just like the Alicia episode did. The ending does
> hint at one, with the mention of a sequel to the Warrior Angel
> movie being scheduled.
>
> Meanwhile, big developments on the Lionel and Lana front. We
> see Lionel experiencing his own Stephen King novel, as a crazy
> woman named Marilyn has apparently kidnapped him and used
> an animal trap on his arm to chain him to the bed. He manages
> to escape later in the ep, only to be bonked on the head with a
> shovel. PAN over to the crazy woman wielding it and it's Lana. :-)

This little vignette seemed disconnected from the rest of the episode until
the end when you see it sort of come together. I like the bad Lionel who
has since returned. I also liked seeing Lex watch his father bludgeon his
captor. You can see the gears going in Lex's head. Perhaps, he is coming
to terms with his craziness as being inherited from his dead and not so bad
after all. As Lex said, good and evil are just shades of gray.

Lex is starting to realize his destiny too (although I suspect he'll get
there before Clark will). I suspect the real drive for Clark to save the
world will come when Lex's megalomania reaches its peak at the end of season
7 with Lex focusing all his hate and anger at those who stand in his way
(Clark being one of them).

I can see Lex's final showdown might result in him aligning forces to face a
foe that exists mostly in his own mind. Lex will be his own worst enemy and
the world's greatest threat. Imagine bringing back Fine, "Vandal Savage",
some other memorable villians. Not to mention, the new secret government
agency and get it all backed and funded by the President as a global
anti-terrorism squad. In order for Clark to put a stop to this he will need
to do the same. However, he will need to finally start to realize the value
of having a separate identity is a symbol so he can be out in the public eye
and still do what he needs to do. This potential showdown will be a great
way to retire Lex from Smallville and allow the show to move into its final
season with all the plots and characters in place.

>
> Yep, Lana's the one who kidnapped Lionel. He doesn't see who
> hit him but figures it out by the end. Lois inadvertently helps Lex
> learn that something's happening at the property where Lionel is
> being held. Lex rescues him. Marilyn almost stops the rescue
> but Lionel hits her on the head with something, and then keeps
> hitting her on the head until she'd have to be dead. Lex looks
> on somewhat appalled and urging him to stop.
>
> In a sense, Lana was more the murderess of Marilyn than
> Lionel was. When Lionel confronts Lana later he calls her on
> it having anything to do with protecting Clark. He says it was
> pure retribution on her part, very Luthor-like, and warns her
> she's slipping into a very dark place from which she may not
> be able to return.

This is also a welcome role for Lana and I am looking forward to see this
darking of her soul.. This could be what finally separates the bond between
Clark and Lana. Clark will realize that even his first great love is not
infallible and will be disappointed (and possibly disgusted) when he learns
the truth of what Lana is up to.

Clark will need to move on and this could be just the ticket. I suspect he
will first try to bring her back to the right side of good and evil.
Ultimately, I suspect she factors into the next phase of development for
Clark somehow (funding a crime fighting organization, working with Chloe as
a watcher). Maybe Lana is some kind of lightning rod for past souls who are
really strong. This time she might channel Isis' entity and become a
superhero able to fight alongside Clark as a friend and peer.

Regardless, moving on from Lana will effectively close this chapter of his
life and finally allow him to realize his destiny. As much as Lana is
preventing Lex from sinker deeper into the pit, she is also preventing Clark
from ascending to his ultimate destiny.

>
> Earlier in the episode, Clark actually goes to Lex for information on
> the Warrior Angel mythos. It's like old times, and what's so Capital-G
> Great about it is that it completely invalidates -- NUKES -- much of
> the crapfest that was season 6. They'd have these lines in season
> 6 about how Lex had become so Evil and there was no going back
> between him and Clark, and season 7 Clana spoilers hung over the
> series like acid rain... but it turns out it's Lana's the Bitch this year
> and she's a much better character in that mode. We got hints of it

Totally agree. Lana is the fulcrum of the seesaw that Lex and Clark and
riding on.

> before this episode, with the $10 million theft of Lex's money and the
> control room where she's monitoring him. But this took her darker
> still. The pendulum may swing again if this runs 8 seasons, but Lex
> had a line to Clark about good/evil not being black and white but
> shades of gray. That's what this episode has restored it to vis-a-
> vis Lex and Lana individually, and Clark's relationship with Lex,
> and it's a much better dynamic for the series.

Definitely agree. They need to tighten the focus on these three characters.
Make them darker and more interesting. Clark must also have a dark side
that he needs to face and deal with in order for him to grow. By denying
his nature, he runs the risk of letting it control him like when he was on
Red K.

>
> All Lex's scenes were good, and there was even a hint that the
> new Editor Boy may be Lex's stooge. He tried to kill Lois's story
> about the property she thought Lex had bought near the dam (the
> one where we learn the kidnapping has taken place). Editor Boy
> may have another excuse but hopefully something villainish is up
> with him, and quick, because he's an awful character otherwise.

Editor boy is too plastic and annoying. Stop overplaying the role. He
ain't a young Perry White.

>
> So it was a very good episode. There was a Supernatural one
> with the same Hollywood movie backdrop last season. It was
> reasonable one-shot fun, and I was prepared for this Smallville
> ep to be something like that. Not only was it as much or more
> fun, it had that Darker Lana element and the restoration of that
> "Gray" dynamic that suits the series better. Maybe next week
> it all gets wrecked again, but as at the end of S7, Ep 5, the show
> is probably in the best creative position it's been in for a couple
> of seasons.
>
> No Kara in the ep but she's back next week in 7-6 "Lara" with
> Helen Slater playing Lara.

Looking forward to this.

BTW, did you like the bit at the end where Rachel gives Clark a give. He
opens it up and it is a red cape. The final scene is of the cape fluttering
in the breeze on the fence as Clark walks back to the farmhouse. It kind of
gave me shivers as they are finally moving in the right direction... Keep
it coming, we are ready for it.

BC

unread,

Oct 25, 2007, 9:41:04 AM10/25/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
news:O0YTi.141954$1y4.135282@pd7urf2no...

>
>>
> Clark will need to move on and this could be just the ticket. I suspect
> he will first try to bring her back to the right side of good and evil.
> Ultimately, I suspect she factors into the next phase of development for
> Clark somehow (funding a crime fighting organization, working with Chloe
> as a watcher). Maybe Lana is some kind of lightning rod for past souls
> who are really strong. This time she might channel Isis' entity and
> become a superhero able to fight alongside Clark as a friend and peer.

Fight who? Fight for fighting's sake? The show needs a villain. It has
more superheroes than Carter has liver pills.

>
>
> Definitely agree. They need to tighten the focus on these three
> characters. Make them darker and more interesting. Clark must also have a
> dark side that he needs to face and deal with in order for him to grow.
> By denying his nature, he runs the risk of letting it control him like
> when he was on Red K.

About all we've seen is his dark side. His brooding over having to conquer
the earth, his brooding over Lana's love, his brooding over Lana loving Lex,
his mistrust in Lex, his brooding over all the meteor freaks being his
fault, his brooding over the deaths of Lana's parents being his fault -- ad
infinitum.

We need a Clark that flies up into the light from the yellow sun to soak up
its power and be enlighten by his over sight of the earth and to realize his
responsibility and not hide from it.

>
>>
>> All Lex's scenes were good, and there was even a hint that the
>> new Editor Boy may be Lex's stooge. He tried to kill Lois's story
>> about the property she thought Lex had bought near the dam (the
>> one where we learn the kidnapping has taken place). Editor Boy
>> may have another excuse but hopefully something villainish is up
>> with him, and quick, because he's an awful character otherwise.
>
> Editor boy is too plastic and annoying. Stop overplaying the role. He
> ain't a young Perry White.

Least likable character ever. He's too young and overacts.

>
>
> BTW, did you like the bit at the end where Rachel gives Clark a give. He
> opens it up and it is a red cape. The final scene is of the cape
> fluttering in the breeze on the fence as Clark walks back to the
> farmhouse. It kind of gave me shivers as they are finally moving in the
> right direction... Keep it coming, we are ready for it.

They've done the cape fan wank bit years ago and it is no indication "they"
are moving in ANY direction. They have yet to do the crushing of a pistol
fan wank and the bending of the rifle barrel fan wank. They've done the
walking through the concrete block wall fan wank once I believe.

KalElFan

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Oct 25, 2007, 10:25:37 AM10/25/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
news:O0YTi.141954$1y4.135282@pd7urf2no...

> BTW, did you like the bit at the end where Rachel gives Clark a
> [gift]...

Yes I did. It's Warrior Angel's cape, but along with the El-Crest and
other things it's a nice nod to his traditional destiny.

Bradster

unread,

Oct 25, 2007, 11:31:53 AM10/25/07

to

"BC" <bcph...@att.net> wrote in message
news:L11Ui.396$%Y6....@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...

>
> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
> news:O0YTi.141954$1y4.135282@pd7urf2no...
>>
>>>
>> Clark will need to move on and this could be just the ticket. I suspect
>> he will first try to bring her back to the right side of good and evil.
>> Ultimately, I suspect she factors into the next phase of development for
>> Clark somehow (funding a crime fighting organization, working with Chloe
>> as a watcher). Maybe Lana is some kind of lightning rod for past souls
>> who are really strong. This time she might channel Isis' entity and
>> become a superhero able to fight alongside Clark as a friend and peer.
>
> Fight who? Fight for fighting's sake? The show needs a villain. It has
> more superheroes than Carter has liver pills.

I suggest that she goes to the dark side until the series finale at which
point Clark knocks some sense into her.

>>
>>
>> Definitely agree. They need to tighten the focus on these three
>> characters. Make them darker and more interesting. Clark must also have
>> a dark side that he needs to face and deal with in order for him to grow.
>> By denying his nature, he runs the risk of letting it control him like
>> when he was on Red K.
>
> About all we've seen is his dark side. His brooding over having to
> conquer the earth, his brooding over Lana's love, his brooding over Lana
> loving Lex, his mistrust in Lex, his brooding over all the meteor freaks
> being his fault, his brooding over the deaths of Lana's parents being his
> fault -- ad infinitum.
>
> We need a Clark that flies up into the light from the yellow sun to soak
> up its power and be enlighten by his over sight of the earth and to
> realize his responsibility and not hide from it.

Fair enough... The brooding is getting old. However, his Red K trip was
refreshing. I just mean that he needs to hit bottom and get over it once
and for all. Perhaps, he should attend a Superheroes Anonymous support
group for awhile...

>
>>
>>>
>>> All Lex's scenes were good, and there was even a hint that the
>>> new Editor Boy may be Lex's stooge. He tried to kill Lois's story
>>> about the property she thought Lex had bought near the dam (the
>>> one where we learn the kidnapping has taken place). Editor Boy
>>> may have another excuse but hopefully something villainish is up
>>> with him, and quick, because he's an awful character otherwise.
>>
>> Editor boy is too plastic and annoying. Stop overplaying the role. He
>> ain't a young Perry White.
>
> Least likable character ever. He's too young and overacts.
>>
>>
>> BTW, did you like the bit at the end where Rachel gives Clark a give. He
>> opens it up and it is a red cape. The final scene is of the cape
>> fluttering in the breeze on the fence as Clark walks back to the
>> farmhouse. It kind of gave me shivers as they are finally moving in the
>> right direction... Keep it coming, we are ready for it.
>
> They've done the cape fan wank bit years ago and it is no indication
> "they" are moving in ANY direction. They have yet to do the crushing of a
> pistol fan wank and the bending of the rifle barrel fan wank. They've
> done the walking through the concrete block wall fan wank once I believe.

I was watching that finale "strut" scene again but this time with my son.
We both that the red cape fluttering on the fence while Clark walked away
seemed out of place. His words were "it looked kinda lame". Who would just
leave a cape on the fence? I suppose...an actor following the script so
that producers have a convenient shot of the red cape and Clark's ass. ;-)

BC

unread,

Oct 25, 2007, 11:43:24 AM10/25/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

news:JF2Ui.141967$th2.54331@pd7urf3no...

>
> "BC" <bcph...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:L11Ui.396$%Y6....@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
>> news:O0YTi.141954$1y4.135282@pd7urf2no...
>>>
>>>>
>>> Clark will need to move on and this could be just the ticket. I suspect
>>> he will first try to bring her back to the right side of good and evil.
>>> Ultimately, I suspect she factors into the next phase of development for
>>> Clark somehow (funding a crime fighting organization, working with Chloe
>>> as a watcher). Maybe Lana is some kind of lightning rod for past souls
>>> who are really strong. This time she might channel Isis' entity and
>>> become a superhero able to fight alongside Clark as a friend and peer.
>>
>> Fight who? Fight for fighting's sake? The show needs a villain. It has
>> more superheroes than Carter has liver pills.
>
> I suggest that she goes to the dark side until the series finale at which
> point Clark knocks some sense into her.

The problem with her "dark" side is that it is twisted to look like the good
side. She looked like she was going to Lex's side then turns on him to then
resurface with Clark. I don't see the writers actually creating a dark and
light Star Wars type of conflict. In Smallville nearly everything is
obscured by gray clouds.

>
>
>>>
>>>
>>> Definitely agree. They need to tighten the focus on these three
>>> characters. Make them darker and more interesting. Clark must also have
>>> a dark side that he needs to face and deal with in order for him to
>>> grow. By denying his nature, he runs the risk of letting it control him
>>> like when he was on Red K.
>>
>> About all we've seen is his dark side. His brooding over having to
>> conquer the earth, his brooding over Lana's love, his brooding over Lana
>> loving Lex, his mistrust in Lex, his brooding over all the meteor freaks
>> being his fault, his brooding over the deaths of Lana's parents being his
>> fault -- ad infinitum.
>>
>> We need a Clark that flies up into the light from the yellow sun to soak
>> up its power and be enlighten by his over sight of the earth and to
>> realize his responsibility and not hide from it.
>
> Fair enough... The brooding is getting old. However, his Red K trip was
> refreshing. I just mean that he needs to hit bottom and get over it once
> and for all. Perhaps, he should attend a Superheroes Anonymous support
> group for awhile...

That group worked for me...oops...errr....cough....ahem....I mean I hear
those groups work. ;-)

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> All Lex's scenes were good, and there was even a hint that the
>>>> new Editor Boy may be Lex's stooge. He tried to kill Lois's story
>>>> about the property she thought Lex had bought near the dam (the
>>>> one where we learn the kidnapping has taken place). Editor Boy
>>>> may have another excuse but hopefully something villainish is up
>>>> with him, and quick, because he's an awful character otherwise.
>>>
>>> Editor boy is too plastic and annoying. Stop overplaying the role. He
>>> ain't a young Perry White.
>>
>> Least likable character ever. He's too young and overacts.
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW, did you like the bit at the end where Rachel gives Clark a give.
>>> He opens it up and it is a red cape. The final scene is of the cape
>>> fluttering in the breeze on the fence as Clark walks back to the
>>> farmhouse. It kind of gave me shivers as they are finally moving in the
>>> right direction... Keep it coming, we are ready for it.
>>
>> They've done the cape fan wank bit years ago and it is no indication
>> "they" are moving in ANY direction. They have yet to do the crushing of
>> a pistol fan wank and the bending of the rifle barrel fan wank. They've
>> done the walking through the concrete block wall fan wank once I believe.
>
> I was watching that finale "strut" scene again but this time with my son.
> We both that the red cape fluttering on the fence while Clark walked away
> seemed out of place. His words were "it looked kinda lame". Who would
> just leave a cape on the fence? I suppose...an actor following the script
> so that producers have a convenient shot of the red cape and Clark's ass.
> ;-)

I feel sorry for your son. I don't know his age but I'm sorry he has to grow
up with a lame Supe. I (we) didn't.

George Peatty

unread,

Oct 25, 2007, 12:34:52 PM10/25/07

to

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:31:53 GMT, "Bradster"
<bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:

>I suggest that she goes to the dark side until the series finale at which
>point Clark knocks some sense into her.

I can think of something a lot better to knock than some sense..

Yabahoobs

unread,

Oct 25, 2007, 2:55:29 PM10/25/07

to

> > Editor boy is too plastic and annoying. Stop overplaying the role. He
> > ain't a young Perry White.
>
> Least likable character ever. He's too young and overacts.
>

Totally agree. The actor looks like a manaquin and the upcoming
romance with him and Lois is pathetic.

> They've done the cape fan wank bit years ago and it is no indication "they"
> are moving in ANY direction. They have yet to do the crushing of a pistol
> fan wank and the bending of the rifle barrel fan wank. They've done the
> walking through the concrete block wall fan wank once I believe.

It's sad to see some fans of this show still strung along like blind
lemmings at ANY reference to the Reeve-esque Supes films. The writers
throw in little bits like that three or four times a season to keep
the viewers from vomiting on their televisions. The cape is ZERO
sign of this show moving in any direction, let alone towards Clarks
final maturation toward Superman.

Yabahoobs

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Oct 25, 2007, 2:56:40 PM10/25/07

to

On Oct 25, 8:25 am, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Bradster" <bdhayREMOV...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

I think (for a change) KalElFan has the right perspective here. It's
a "nice nod". Nothing more. I would even contend its "niceness", but
it's a nod none the less.

Bradster

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Oct 25, 2007, 7:51:26 PM10/25/07

to

"Yabahoobs" <chend...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193338600.5...@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

I got the impression that Clark didn't care much about the cape or his
future destiny or he wouldn't have left it draped over the fence for the
cows to munch on.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 25, 2007, 10:03:41 PM10/25/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

news:2_9Ui.144276$th2.79273@pd7urf3no...

> I got the impression that Clark didn't care much about the cape or his
> future destiny or he wouldn't have left it draped over the fence for the
> cows to munch on.

That may have been the symbolism -- that he still hasn't accepted his
destiny. Also, the "no tights" rule seems unbreakable as far as Welling
is concerned. Walking away from it also works as a reference to that --
the fact Welling ain't wearing the suit on Smallville. It takes the movie-
within-a-TV-series element of the episode up another level to real life.

But while we're on the subject of Welling wearing the suit...

I think they should be casting Welling as Superman in the JLA movie,
and I think Welling should take it, but only if it's performance capture
for all the traditional costume scenes. "Performance Capture" is the
emerging (and I think best) term for realistic-looking CGI animation
of specific actors, so Tom Hanks as the Conductor in Polar Express
for example. Motion Capture (or "mo-cap") is a broader term that
includes non-performance animation.

The director of the JLA movie is George Miller. His first hits were
the Mad Max movies so he's capable of directing a big live action
picture. But he's also done Babe and most recently Happy Feet,
which is why Warner Bros. loves him. Happy Feet didn't just get
Miller an Oscar, it grossed about as much as Superman Returns,
for less than half the cost, none of the executroid ulcers, and it was
fun. It also had a kind of Performance Capture feel to it, albeit in
the form of Robin Williams for example as one of the penguins.

With the JLA movie, if it isn't performance capture on at least any
traditional costume scenes, the movie will probably be a debacle. (If
they plan modernized suits like X-Men then it wouldn't be an issue.)
I read in a Super-Menace post that they've nixed Green Lantern,
and that's why I've qualified it as "probably be a debacle". GL is
inherently the silliest character (with Aquaman but nobody cares what
changes they make to that orange and green). Superman, Batman,
Wonder Woman and Flash have all had live action incarnations,
so the thinking might be that it's plausible to do live JLA.

I don't think so, and the no-name actors won't help in that respect.
The reaction will tend to be "Look! It's a half dozen no name actors
in superhero costumes!" Guffaw City and it's almost inevitably a
train wreck. Miller won't be able to save it. (Lose the loud tights
and capes and it's doable, but there's more market resistance to
that in the case of these characters.)

Use Performance Capture, and all that risk goes away. People
are struck (probably awe-struck) by the animation of not just a
Conductor in Polar Express, but these iconic characters that have
been iconic for half a century and originated in an animated kind
of medium. The Performance Capture process, its specific application
to this JLA movie. would make it a must-see and landmark film. The
non-costume and non-effects scenes -- Clark at the Planet for example --
could be live action. Welling as Superman would be a recognizable,
centerpiece application of it for the movie.

The way the credible Welling speculation got nixed made no sense.
I believe iesb.net that somebody high up was at least recommending
Welling. Gough was the one who came out with the immediate denials
and later "Hollywood doesn't work that way". Huh? It's not just that
Gough has no say in what Warner Bros. does with their JLA movie,
it's that it ought to be good for the movie and for Smallville to have
Welling play the role. The timeframe is such that Welling could shoot
much of his movie scenes after they finish all the Smallville season 7
shooting anyway, and the Superman/Clark scenes are a much smaller
percentage of the movie than they would have been with Superman
Returns. Kara's also available this season to pick up some slack
even if Clark went off to do his training for a few episodes. It would
create PR and buzz for Smallville if Welling were playing the JLA role,
and there's a lot of market overlap that would favor it.

If there was concern about Smallville's status going into this season,
after two all-time viewership lows late last season, the performance
of the show this season addresses that. The premiere ep had the
first year-over-year increase in 5 seasons, viewership is up over last
season, Smallville was The CW's #1 show three of the first four weeks
this season (second the other week), and that while most other shows
on all networks are down from last season (partly because penetration
of DVRs has more than doubled). The CW's most touted new shows
are pulling in half what Smallville is (less in a few cases).

bf

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 12:18:58 AM10/26/07

to

On Oct 25, 2:55 pm, Yabahoobs <chendrik...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's sad to see some fans of this show still strung along like blind
> lemmings at ANY reference to the Reeve-esque Supes films. The writers
> throw in little bits like that three or four times a season to keep
> the viewers from vomiting on their televisions. The cape is ZERO
> sign of this show moving in any direction, let alone towards Clarks
> final maturation toward Superman.

Exactly.. wasn't it obvious that the gift was going to be some
reference to the superman
costume. I found the scene boring. Just like all the talk about Clark
accepting his destiny.
After you see these winks for 7 years, and nothing happening, it gets
boring.
At least Clark was honest and admited he just wanted to hang out on
the farm and stare at Lana
(but not touch her LOL)

bf

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 12:23:12 AM10/26/07

to

On Oct 25, 10:03 pm, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

I doubt anyone would want Welling to play Superman in a movie.
Here's why. They don't want the potential audience to say "Oh, so it
will be a Smallville movie, been there, done that".
Let's face it, Smallvile's popularity has eroded drastically.
Putting Welling as a lead in a Superman movie would be a disaster,
IMO.

BC

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 12:57:05 AM10/26/07

to

"bf" <bfor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193372338.9...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

When I first heard from the Canadian Spoilers that the cape was left on the
fence I thought that it was a fan wank. But after seeing the show it isn't.
It was a simple visual metaphor for his being on the fence about becoming a
superhero.

BC

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 12:58:33 AM10/26/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

news:2_9Ui.144276$th2.79273@pd7urf3no...

It is a visual metaphor for him being "on the fence" bout becoming a
superhero.

I didn't hear but why were they shooting on the Kent farm? Is that
something that Clark really wanted -- to draw attention to a superhero on
his farm?

BC

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 1:04:15 AM10/26/07

to

"KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5od083F...@mid.individual.net...

> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
> news:2_9Ui.144276$th2.79273@pd7urf3no...
>
>> I got the impression that Clark didn't care much about the cape or his
>> future destiny or he wouldn't have left it draped over the fence for the
>> cows to munch on.
>
> That may have been the symbolism -- that he still hasn't accepted his
> destiny. Also, the "no tights" rule seems unbreakable as far as Welling
> is concerned. Walking away from it also works as a reference to that --
> the fact Welling ain't wearing the suit on Smallville. It takes the
> movie-
> within-a-TV-series element of the episode up another level to real life.

It is a visual metaphor -- that's all.

>
> But while we're on the subject of Welling wearing the suit...

What do you mean "we"? You and your alter ego? Puzzling.

Agree. Too dopey.

>
> Use Performance Capture, and all that risk goes away. People
> are struck (probably awe-struck) by the animation of not just a
> Conductor in Polar Express, but these iconic characters that have
> been iconic for half a century and originated in an animated kind
> of medium. The Performance Capture process, its specific application
> to this JLA movie. would make it a must-see and landmark film. The
> non-costume and non-effects scenes -- Clark at the Planet for example --
> could be live action. Welling as Superman would be a recognizable,
> centerpiece application of it for the movie.

Maybe would work -- give it that graphic novel look.

>
> The way the credible Welling speculation got nixed made no sense.
> I believe iesb.net that somebody high up was at least recommending
> Welling. Gough was the one who came out with the immediate denials
> and later "Hollywood doesn't work that way". Huh? It's not just that
> Gough has no say in what Warner Bros. does with their JLA movie,
> it's that it ought to be good for the movie and for Smallville to have
> Welling play the role. The timeframe is such that Welling could shoot
> much of his movie scenes after they finish all the Smallville season 7
> shooting anyway, and the Superman/Clark scenes are a much smaller
> percentage of the movie than they would have been with Superman
> Returns. Kara's also available this season to pick up some slack
> even if Clark went off to do his training for a few episodes. It would
> create PR and buzz for Smallville if Welling were playing the JLA role,
> and there's a lot of market overlap that would favor it.

Vandervoort will be making Aeon Flux II subbing for Chalize Theron since
nobody will notice the difference.

>
> If there was concern about Smallville's status going into this season,
> after two all-time viewership lows late last season, the performance
> of the show this season addresses that. The premiere ep had the
> first year-over-year increase in 5 seasons, viewership is up over last
> season, Smallville was The CW's #1 show three of the first four weeks
> this season (second the other week), and that while most other shows
> on all networks are down from last season (partly because penetration
> of DVRs has more than doubled). The CW's most touted new shows
> are pulling in half what Smallville is (less in a few cases).

Agree that this year is better so far. Last year was a mess.

BC

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 1:06:47 AM10/26/07

to

"bf" <bfor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1193372592....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Isn't Routh in the next film? And Welling is too old for a JLA. I don't
see the argument. I guess they will make more Supe movies until they
completely suck like they did in the Reeve era then forget about it for
15-20 years again.

Anim8rFSK

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 1:44:43 AM10/26/07

to

In article <CBeUi.1707$Vx3...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>,
"BC" <bcph...@att.net> wrote:

The next film isn't even listed as being in pre production any more.

--
Jitterbug phone works! (Third time's a charm!)

Julia Dream

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 1:57:04 AM10/26/07

to

"KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5oaj7bF...@mid.individual.net...

Oh yeah! When Lionel was dragged away by someone in a long dustcoat, I
thought it had to be a man. Then we saw Lionel strapped to a bed in a
cabin, and some heavy-set woman leans over him and says she's glad he's
awake. He asks where he is, and who she is, and the first thing she says
is, "Oh what, no thank you for saving your life?" I immediately thought of
Kathy Bates in "Misery"! That was great!! (I just finished reading that
book a few months ago, after seeing the movie YEARS ago)

>
> Yep, Lana's the one who kidnapped Lionel. He doesn't see who
> hit him but figures it out by the end.

That's what bugs me. How did Lionel figure that out if he didn't actually
see Lana in the woods?? Perhaps he was assuming and hoping to trap her? It
was just odd.

.
>
> All Lex's scenes were good, and there was even a hint that the
> new Editor Boy may be Lex's stooge. He tried to kill Lois's story
> about the property she thought Lex had bought near the dam (the
> one where we learn the kidnapping has taken place). Editor Boy
> may have another excuse but hopefully something villainish is up
> with him, and quick, because he's an awful character otherwise.

I hope that Lois' boss is up to no good as well. I kept wondering why a
newspaper editor would scrap a story like that, unless he was working for
Lex. Would be an interesting storyline.

Becky

David B

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 2:54:52 AM10/26/07

to

Anim8rFSK wrote:

The guys who wrote Superman Returns just dropped out of writing the sequel.
So they need to find new writers for it.

Oct 26, 2007, 10:28:40 AM10/26/07

to

"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ANIM8Rfsk-2476C...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com...

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 5:37:16 PM10/26/07

to

Captain Infinity <Infi...@captaininfinity.us> writes:
>People are struck, but it's not with awe. They're dumbfounded by how
>god-awful it looks. The idea of making the "JLA Express" is the most
>ridiculous and horrifying thing I've heard in a long time.

For sure. It's mindboggling how bad the animation was on "polar express".
it was so bad it was almost creepy. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Message has been deleted

KalElFan

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Oct 26, 2007, 8:53:05 PM10/26/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

news:O0YTi.141954$1y4.135282@pd7urf2no...

> I also like how they painted some fans in the forums and blogs
> as lunatics.

They also had the crazy guy working on the set, so the writing
was skewering their own as well as fandom. It wasn't too heavy-
handed. Another thing that helped is that unlike Supernatural's
ep where they were visiting Hollywood for a one-shot episode (a
"real" haunting there within the story), here Hollywood comes to
Smallville. Smallville had the Warrior Angel comic established in
season 1, so it was perfectly set up for this episode. It's the
direct parallels (a Superman TV series being shot up in Burnaby
B.C.), that the writing most gets to play with. It helped a lot that
Christina Milian worked so well.

They could do a sequel later this season and maybe a double-
episode next season where they're shooting Warrior Angel III,
the last in the trilogy. The in-jokes can be mined again, but more
the parallels and next time it needn't be a PA villain. It might be
more the Smallville weirdness, which is world-renowned within
the story and therefore might even be part of the marketing for
Warrior Angel. It's a heck of a lot more fun than most Smallville
episodes.

> Lana is the fulcrum of the seesaw that Lex and Clark and riding on...

Fulcrum-shmulcrum. :-) She's just a much better character in her own
right when she's dark like this. The idea that Clark and Lex become
mortal enemies because of Lana is more ridiculous than it's ever been
after this episode. If it were just about Lana, Clark and Lex should be
destined for a bar chat a decade from now, where they share their
Top Ten Lana horror stories. :-)

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 8:53:08 PM10/26/07

to

"Julia Dream" <pink...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:QkfUi.13939$lD6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

> I hope that Lois' boss is up to no good as well. I kept wondering
> why a newspaper editor would scrap a story like that, unless he
> was working for Lex. Would be an interesting storyline.

Possible SPOILERS for later in season 7...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

B
E
L
O
W

There was a spoiler I read recently -- it may have been in a Gough
interview -- that there will be a character we learn is working for Lex.
After last night's ep, Editor Boy would fit.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 8:53:18 PM10/26/07

to

"bf" <bfor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1193430521.3...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

> The point is that putting Welling as Superman in a movie automatically

> alienates some potential viewers...

Very few, and for every one of them a bunch more will be alienated by
the second snub. Welling beat out Routh (as well as Shawn Ashmore,
Jensen Ackles and others) for the Smallville role, and Smallville made
the right choice. There was strong support for Welling being cast in
Superman Returns, but at least there the argument that it would have
interfered too much with Smallville was plausible.

> A lot of Superman fans gave up on Smallville now. In season 1-3,
> Welling in a superman movie would've probably been ok.

Virtual no one blames Welling for the problems Smallville has had.
For the vast majority of the Smallville viewership, they'd be more
not less likely to see the JLA movie. For non-Smallville viewers,
it's not going to be a negative that Welling got the role instead
of some no-name Brit who looks even less the part than guys
Welling beat out for the Smallville role. People would see it as
Warner Bros. casting loyalty. With Routh and Bale, they're both
in other theatrical franchises already. Welling should get a shot
at the role here.

He shouldn't want it if it's live action in the tights scenes though.
There's a notoriously awful TV pilot floating around with that, and
if X-Men had had Hugh Jackman prancing around in that yellow,
masked Wolverine thingie or whatever it was it'd have been lights
out on that franchise. A multi-character traditional DC costume
movie needs the Performance Capture animation for those types
of scenes, which are mostly the action scenes that are cheaper
to make using the same technique.

As for Polar Express, it grossed $175 million domestic without the
inherent draw of JLA in a partially animated form. There's a bit
of spooked-out reaction some have to it, but far less so as it's
been used more especially in this kind of context. Some will hate
it but that controversy just helps drum up some buzz. People will
check it out in bigger numbers than they did Polar Express.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 8:53:11 PM10/26/07

to

"bf" <bfor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1193372592....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 25, 10:03 pm, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I doubt anyone would want Welling to play Superman in a movie.
> Here's why. They don't want the potential audience to say "Oh, so
> it will be a Smallville movie, been there, done that".

If he's playing *_Superman_* in a *_JLA_* Movie, it should be
obvious that it's not a Smallville movie. It's not even a Superman
movie, it just has Superman as one of several characters.

All they'd need to do is *reinforce* the obvious in PR, interviews,
marketing, etc. -- that it's a separate movie and Welling happens
to be playing Superman. They should stay away from casting any
other Smallville actors in it.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 9:14:39 PM10/26/07

to

"KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5ofggaF...@mid.individual.net...

I'll amend that a bit. When the Superman movie was still just being
planned a few years back, I suggested a cameo of the Smallville
cast. They'd play different characters on a bus that the movie
Superman would save. A scene like that would reinforce that the
movie wasn't Smallville (or the Smallville future), but it'd still be fun
for Smallville viewers and be an additional draw. They could even
get John Schneider back for it (but again, playing and looking like
some very different character on the bus).

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 10:07:15 PM10/26/07

to

SPOILERS here for an upcoming arc...

"redhawk" <newfou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193435394.9...@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 24, 9:09 pm, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> No Kara in the ep but she's back next week in 7-6 "Lara" with
>> Helen Slater playing Lara.
>
> "Action" had considerable wit and charm, but "Lara" is the one that
> really gets me excited. From the first I learned that Kara was
> joining the show, I have been eagerly awaiting the big Kryptonian
> backstory episode...

Based on what we've seen and the spoilers, they've blown the
Krypton backstory along with the characterization of Kara as
dangerous and possibly evil according to Jor-El.

Even if it somehow resolves as Martian Manhunter having been
captured by Brainiac and he's since been posing as him, planting
memories or whatever, it's effectively another bait and switch.
Yes, they brought back cousin Kara, but they used a bastardized
modern comic crap backstory to introduce her. It'd be funny, if it
wasn't sad, that even the modern comic readers rejected that.
The title dropped 50% in its second issue and it's down more than
another 50% of what was left since then. Its sales are literally less
than 1% of Smallville's viewership anyway, even if readers loved it.

The time lag concept where she arrives 16-18 years later is great,
remaining the same 18 years old (or whatever) because she was
in suspended animation. But they should reboot that concept in a
new series with new producer-writers at the top. Vandervoort and
Ashmore would be fine, and they'd have the opportunity to work
from a blank slate and even cast new actors for the occasional
guest spots (Clark, Ma, Pa, etc.) over the 5-7 year series.

It'll still be interesting to see Helen Slater and whatever they've
done though, because it's New and Smallville needs New this year.
That's what might keep it interesting the rest of the way. There
was a post suggesting they bring Christina Milian in as a regular,
and they could even do that next season. Warrior Angel could
shoot a TV series in Smallville. They could put Milian in the credits
and give her an 11-ep contract like they have Vandervoort and
Ashmore this season, and get Vandervoort and Ashmore started
on their entirely new series set in LA.

redhawk

unread,

Oct 26, 2007, 11:52:56 PM10/26/07

to

"KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5ofkqmF...@mid.individual.net...

> SPOILERS here for an upcoming arc...
>
> "redhawk" <newfou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1193435394.9...@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
>> On Oct 24, 9:09 pm, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> No Kara in the ep but she's back next week in 7-6 "Lara" with
>>> Helen Slater playing Lara.
>>
>> "Action" had considerable wit and charm, but "Lara" is the one that
>> really gets me excited. From the first I learned that Kara was
>> joining the show, I have been eagerly awaiting the big Kryptonian
>> backstory episode...
>
> Based on what we've seen and the spoilers, they've blown the
> Krypton backstory along with the characterization of Kara as
> dangerous and possibly evil according to Jor-El.

I attribute Jor-El's suspicion to Kara being the daughter of Zor-El. The
Kryptonsite photo shows a Zor-El who is a villain straight from central
casting. Zor-El will be the mastermind, Kara just a patsy. Or maybe she
has done some questionable things, but that just fits into the new theme of
"shades of gray" instead of a simplistic good/evil dichotomy. I hope that
Dark Kara is as much fun as Dark Lana, if they do go that direction. ;-)

Probably the biggest surprise for me this season was how Kara and Jimmy
actually made a credible couple. I would not have thought a
Vandervoort-Ashmore pairing could anchor a series, but their Chinese food
and chopsticks scene made a believer out of me.

Bradster

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 12:01:31 AM10/27/07

to

"KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5od083F...@mid.individual.net...

> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

> news:2_9Ui.144276$th2.79273@pd7urf3no...
>
>> I got the impression that Clark didn't care much about the cape or his
>> future destiny or he wouldn't have left it draped over the fence for the
>> cows to munch on.
>
> That may have been the symbolism -- that he still hasn't accepted his
> destiny. Also, the "no tights" rule seems unbreakable as far as Welling
> is concerned. Walking away from it also works as a reference to that --
> the fact Welling ain't wearing the suit on Smallville. It takes the
> movie-
> within-a-TV-series element of the episode up another level to real life.

The rule is Tom's? I would have thought that the studio and producers get
to call the shots...

>
> But while we're on the subject of Welling wearing the suit...
>

> I think they should be casting Welling as Superman in the JLA movie,
> and I think Welling should take it, but only if it's performance capture
> for all the traditional costume scenes. "Performance Capture" is the
> emerging (and I think best) term for realistic-looking CGI animation
> of specific actors, so Tom Hanks as the Conductor in Polar Express
> for example. Motion Capture (or "mo-cap") is a broader term that
> includes non-performance animation.

A few key flying sequences in Superman Returns were obviously completely
CGI. I suppose the average viewer can't tell the difference but I was able
to detect the "plastic" look and unrealistic body mechanics. I think this
technology is almost there but for any closeup work, it isn't ready for
primetime yet.

>
> The director of the JLA movie is George Miller. His first hits were
> the Mad Max movies so he's capable of directing a big live action
> picture. But he's also done Babe and most recently Happy Feet,
> which is why Warner Bros. loves him. Happy Feet didn't just get
> Miller an Oscar, it grossed about as much as Superman Returns,
> for less than half the cost, none of the executroid ulcers, and it was
> fun. It also had a kind of Performance Capture feel to it, albeit in
> the form of Robin Williams for example as one of the penguins.
>
> With the JLA movie, if it isn't performance capture on at least any
> traditional costume scenes, the movie will probably be a debacle. (If
> they plan modernized suits like X-Men then it wouldn't be an issue.)
> I read in a Super-Menace post that they've nixed Green Lantern,
> and that's why I've qualified it as "probably be a debacle". GL is
> inherently the silliest character (with Aquaman but nobody cares what
> changes they make to that orange and green). Superman, Batman,
> Wonder Woman and Flash have all had live action incarnations,
> so the thinking might be that it's plausible to do live JLA.
>
> I don't think so, and the no-name actors won't help in that respect.
> The reaction will tend to be "Look! It's a half dozen no name actors
> in superhero costumes!" Guffaw City and it's almost inevitably a
> train wreck. Miller won't be able to save it. (Lose the loud tights
> and capes and it's doable, but there's more market resistance to
> that in the case of these characters.)

I haven't heard a plausible explanation for why superheroes tend to have
capes... Is there some sound reason? Are they afraid that someone will
check out their butt since they have a habit of wearing their skimpy
underwear on the outside of their superhero bodysuits?

>
> Use Performance Capture, and all that risk goes away. People
> are struck (probably awe-struck) by the animation of not just a

> Conductor in Polar Express, but these iconic characters that have
> been iconic for half a century and originated in an animated kind
> of medium. The Performance Capture process, its specific application
> to this JLA movie. would make it a must-see and landmark film. The
> non-costume and non-effects scenes -- Clark at the Planet for example --
> could be live action. Welling as Superman would be a recognizable,
> centerpiece application of it for the movie.
>

> The way the credible Welling speculation got nixed made no sense.
> I believe iesb.net that somebody high up was at least recommending
> Welling. Gough was the one who came out with the immediate denials
> and later "Hollywood doesn't work that way". Huh? It's not just that
> Gough has no say in what Warner Bros. does with their JLA movie,
> it's that it ought to be good for the movie and for Smallville to have
> Welling play the role. The timeframe is such that Welling could shoot
> much of his movie scenes after they finish all the Smallville season 7
> shooting anyway, and the Superman/Clark scenes are a much smaller
> percentage of the movie than they would have been with Superman
> Returns. Kara's also available this season to pick up some slack
> even if Clark went off to do his training for a few episodes. It would
> create PR and buzz for Smallville if Welling were playing the JLA role,
> and there's a lot of market overlap that would favor it.

X-Files was able to succesfully bridge taking a TV series to film and then
back to the series (mind you, in chronological sequence). In fact, I
believe X-Files was the first TV series to try this.

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 11:26:19 AM10/27/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

news:vKyUi.149953$Da.98601@pd7urf1no...

>
> "KalElFan" <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>> I haven't heard a plausible explanation for why superheroes tend to have
> capes... Is there some sound reason? Are they afraid that someone will
> check out their butt since they have a habit of wearing their skimpy
> underwear on the outside of their superhero bodysuits?

They don't wear kilts because you can't wear underwear with them.
>
>>

Captain Infinity

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 11:53:18 AM10/27/07

to

Once Upon A Time Bradster wrote:

>If Tom doesn't want to go along for the ride
>then I guess they'll have do a great job of casting someone who can make us
>believe the connection between Smallville's Clark and JLA's Superman.

There is no connection. Smallville has absolutely nothing to do with
Superman. It's a completely separate conceptual universe with it's own
set of characters who just happen to have the same names as the Superman
universe characters.

**
Captain Infinity

Bradster

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Oct 27, 2007, 1:01:43 PM10/27/07

to

"Captain Infinity" <Infi...@captaininfinity.us> wrote in message
news:2kn6i3ph2aieupgea...@4ax.com...

> Captain "Screwup" Infinity

I beg to differ. Smallville is an important addition to canon that needs to
be considered when taking the story in new directions. Other retellings
(the comics, movies, past TV series) have all have had to grapple with the
all-important canon as they push the story and characters in new directions.
Just as Star Trek took a single TV series from the late 60s/early 70s and
turned it into successful 40 year TV and film franchise, Smallville has an
opportunity to do the same with their interpretation which seems to have the
most substance and fodder for story-telling.

Super-Menace

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 2:01:57 PM10/27/07

to

In article <5ofkqmF...@mid.individual.net>, KalElFan
<kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Even if it somehow resolves as Martian Manhunter having been
> captured by Brainiac and he's since been posing as him, planting
> memories or whatever, it's effectively another bait and switch.
> Yes, they brought back cousin Kara, but they used a bastardized
> modern comic crap backstory to introduce her. It'd be funny, if it
> wasn't sad, that even the modern comic readers rejected that.
> The title dropped 50% in its second issue and it's down more than
> another 50% of what was left since then. Its sales are literally less
> than 1% of Smallville's viewership anyway, even if readers loved it.

I don't think you can blame poor Supergirl sales on the new origin. I
think the drop in sales can be blamed on Joe Kelly's initial storyline,
which was one of the worst arcs I've read in nearly half a century of
reading this stuff. Why they let Kelly go on and on with it, God
knows. Good way to shoot yourself in the foot on an important
startup, DC. I suppose we're lucky you managed to get the book out in
the first place.

BTW, Kal, I thought it was fun that when Lex caught Lois in his office,
he recognized her instantly, even though she was wearing glasses.

While we're at it: The cape on the fence was (as somebody else has
said) was indeed a visual metaphor, but (as someone else did)
dismissing all these touches as "fan wank" is, well, a little too
world-weary for me.

And: Clark's plunge off the roof was a flight. He controlled his fall
and -- impossibly for a human -- reversed his position to feet-first
when he caught Lana. A human can't change course or position once he
jumps. Every tumble a high diver makes when s/he leaves the board
depends on what motions were made at the moment of jumping.

This has gotten ridiculous. Just let him frickin' fly already.

Super-Menace

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 2:09:37 PM10/27/07

to

In article <X9KUi.152746$th2.140721@pd7urf3no>, Bradster
<bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:

Well, God, yes. The comics have changed Superman's backstory to fall
more in line with what's been going on in "Smallville." Lex had been a
contemporary of Perry White's who grew up with him in Metropolis; he's
now a contemporary of Clark's who started out bad and went worse.

I am beginning to think the Singer franchise is done, which I think
means Routh is done, too. As for Welling -- Kal, I saw a story that
mentioned that the "no tights" rule is written into Welling's contract.
He doesn't want to wear them, either on the show or in personal
appearances. I really don't think he wants to be Superman. Instead,
he seems to want to be one of 12 kids in the "Cheaper by the Dozen"
franchise.

Super-Menace

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 2:13:28 PM10/27/07

to

In article <vKyUi.149953$Da.98601@pd7urf1no>, Bradster
<bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:

> A few key flying sequences in Superman Returns were obviously completely
> CGI. I suppose the average viewer can't tell the difference but I was able
> to detect the "plastic" look and unrealistic body mechanics. I think this
> technology is almost there but for any closeup work, it isn't ready for
> primetime yet.

Agreed here. The only one that fooled me was when Superman tossed the
shuttle into orbit. The severe lighting covered the shortcomings of
the CGI. The final shot of Superman flying into the dawn sky is
beautiful, maybe the best of its kind I've ever seen, but the closeup
of CGI Brandon at the beginning is distracting.

Super-Menace

unread,

Oct 27, 2007, 2:23:20 PM10/27/07

to

In article <vKyUi.149953$Da.98601@pd7urf1no>, Bradster
<bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:

> I haven't heard a plausible explanation for why superheroes tend to have
> capes... Is there some sound reason? Are they afraid that someone will
> check out their butt since they have a habit of wearing their skimpy
> underwear on the outside of their superhero bodysuits?

Woops. Missed this.

Super-heroes have capes because most Golden Age artists were very bad,
and capes were needed to help show motion.

The "underwear" (God, I'm sick of hearing that) are briefs, which were
commonly worn by acrobats and other performers who wore tights during
the era these heroes were originally designed. Acrobats' briefs were
of heavier material and were intended to hide bulges. My guess is that
readers of the time understood all of this without having to be told,
because it was something everybody knew.

Bradster

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Oct 27, 2007, 3:09:01 PM10/27/07

to

"Super-Menace" <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:271020071401572313%fort...@arctic.com.invalid...

Cats can reorient themselves in freefall...errr..."flighty". Humans are
also be to accomplish this feat (even with superpowers) given enough
distance, muscle strength, and flexibility.

Bradster

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Oct 27, 2007, 3:13:01 PM10/27/07

to

> This has gotten ridiculous. Just let him frickin' fly already.

Yes; I can't see why the producers negated that in the first instance.
--
David Barnett

Titus Pullo

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Oct 27, 2007, 9:24:41 PM10/27/07

to

"David Barnett" <dbar...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:_JQUi.5948$>

>> This has gotten ridiculous. Just let him frickin' fly already.
>
> Yes; I can't see why the producers negated that in the first instance.
> --

At this point, the morons who write the show are just pissing off the few
fans they have left.

Message has been deleted

BC

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Oct 27, 2007, 11:09:51 PM10/27/07

to

"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
news:h1MUi.153317$1y4.105470@pd7urf2no...
>

Scientific American did an article on cat's falling. Cats falling from a
height of many stories flatten out and fall like a sky diver and it saves
them injuries. From lower heights they suffer more injuries because they
can't flatten out in time so they break legs. But they can flip over
quickly.

Martin Phipps

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Oct 28, 2007, 5:44:03 AM10/28/07

to

On Oct 27, 8:53 am, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "bf" <bford...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193430521.3...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>

> > The point is that putting Welling as Superman in a movie automatically

> > alienates some potential viewers...
>
> Very few, and for every one of them a bunch more will be alienated by
> the second snub. Welling beat out Routh (as well as Shawn Ashmore,
> Jensen Ackles and others) for the Smallville role, and Smallville made
> the right choice. There was strong support for Welling being cast in
> Superman Returns, but at least there the argument that it would have
> interfered too much with Smallville was plausible.

>
> > A lot of Superman fans gave up on Smallville now. In season 1-3,
> > Welling in a superman movie would've probably been ok.
>

> Virtual no one blames Welling for the problems Smallville has had.
> For the vast majority of the Smallville viewership, they'd be more
> not less likely to see the JLA movie. For non-Smallville viewers,
> it's not going to be a negative that Welling got the role instead
> of some no-name Brit who looks even less the part than guys
> Welling beat out for the Smallville role. People would see it as
> Warner Bros. casting loyalty. With Routh and Bale, they're both
> in other theatrical franchises already. Welling should get a shot
> at the role here.

Officially the director of JLA doesn't want Welling because HE is not
a Smallville fan and doesn't want to make a Smallville movie. Note
that the Flash will be Barry Allen in the movie and not Bart. Nor
will the Martian Manhunter have to be black if Smallville is ignored.
Oh and Lex Luthor won't be the villain: it will be Max Lord. It's
good to have a JLA villain rather than a purely Superman villain.

Martin

Anim8rFSK

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Oct 28, 2007, 9:43:00 AM10/28/07

to

In article <1193564643.2...@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Martin Phipps <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

LOL, the Martian Manhunter can be any color he wants to be.

> Oh and Lex Luthor won't be the villain: it will be Max Lord. It's
> good to have a JLA villain rather than a purely Superman villain.
>
> Martin

--
Jitterbug phone works! (Third time's a charm!)

KalElFan

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Oct 28, 2007, 1:57:49 PM10/28/07

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"Super-Menace" <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote in message

news:271020071409379947%fort...@arctic.com.invalid...

> ... As for Welling -- Kal, I saw a story that mentioned that the
> "no tights" rule is written into Welling's contract...

Yes, for *Smallville* it is though he may only have got that added
when he signed his 8th season contract extension for Smallville,
or earlier extension if the original contract was only 5 years.

There's never been any indication he wouldn't be interested in a
movie payday, whether it's a Metropolis movie series that'd be
a sequel to Smallville, or a separate movie. In fact it was quite
the opposite when Superman Returns was being cast. He gets
passed over for that, which may have had legitimate scheduling
issues but still he got passed over. Now the JLA movie is being
cast and they're also talking about a full reboot of the Superman
movie series, which as you're speculating may not have Routh.

From Welling's point of view, Gough has been saying no tights
since season 1 of Smallville anyway. Then, as Welling is being
asked to extend for an 8th season (or earlier extension), why
should he ever don the suit for a TV show that he's getting paid
to do anyway? They want the option for an 8th season of Clark
Kent, not Superman. Superman -- donning the suit -- means an
additional typecasting risk he has no incentive to take on the TV
side, and meanwhile guys are getting paid movie money for that.

Yes, in retrospect Welling dodged a bullet on the Singer movie.
But maybe one of these next ones click, and even if he doesn't
make a fortune for the first one he'll make it on the sequels like
Maguire did for Spider-Man. If the JLA movie is Performance
Capture animation on the suit scenes, it's even less reason to
be concerned about typecasting or any other downside. As
only one of several heroes, his character isn't carrying the
movie and he won't get blamed even if it fails.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 28, 2007, 1:57:52 PM10/28/07

to

"Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193564643.2...@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 27, 8:53 am, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "bf" <bford...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1193430521.3...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > The point is that putting Welling as Superman in a movie automatically
>> > alienates some potential viewers...
>>
>> Very few, and for every one of them a bunch more will be alienated by
>> the second snub. Welling beat out Routh (as well as Shawn Ashmore,
>> Jensen Ackles and others) for the Smallville role, and Smallville made
>> the right choice. There was strong support for Welling being cast in
>> Superman Returns, but at least there the argument that it would have
>> interfered too much with Smallville was plausible.
>>
>> > A lot of Superman fans gave up on Smallville now. In season 1-3,
>> > Welling in a superman movie would've probably been ok.
>>
>> Virtual no one blames Welling for the problems Smallville has had.
>> For the vast majority of the Smallville viewership, they'd be more
>> not less likely to see the JLA movie. For non-Smallville viewers,
>> it's not going to be a negative that Welling got the role instead
>> of some no-name Brit who looks even less the part than guys
>> Welling beat out for the Smallville role. People would see it as
>> Warner Bros. casting loyalty. With Routh and Bale, they're both
>> in other theatrical franchises already. Welling should get a shot
>> at the role here.
>
> Officially the director of JLA doesn't want Welling because HE is not
> a Smallville fan and doesn't want to make a Smallville movie.

Do you have a link to the interview or other source where George
Miller said that? It's plausible, and interesting, but it's the first time
I've heard that.

> Note that the Flash will be Barry Allen in the movie and not Bart.

Which is good IMO, and I agree with the movie being a completely
new incarnation. It's not Smallville and not the Singer/Routh movie,
but that point's easy to make and doesn't preclude casting Welling.

> Oh and Lex Luthor won't be the villain: it will be Max Lord. It's
> good to have a JLA villain rather than a purely Superman villain.

I have no idea who Max Lord is but I have no problem with it being
a new or JLA villain. I saw one online comment -- purely anecdotal
and hardly indicative of anything -- that the script was based on a
JLA comic story that the poster said was awful. Even if it was, it
doesn't preclude a good adaptation and George Miller ought to be
able to elevate whatever it is. This is yet another reason why I
think the mo-cap and performance capture element, for the action
and costume scenes, is needed though. An animated movie like
The Incredibles does huge box office, same with Shrek and so on,
and the story is given much more latitude by moviegoers. It tends
to be judged more as visual entertainment, including for kids or the
whole family. If they get it right, there's much less risk and bigger
upside.

The JLA movie wouldn't be animated in the Pixar style of Shrek or
The Incredibles, but Performance Capture in the suit and action
scenes will likewise reduce risk and give it that bigger box office
potential. Especially with the no name cast, the movie's much
more a memorable disaster waiting to happen if they try to play
it all as pure live action.

Captain Infinity

unread,

Oct 28, 2007, 2:58:17 PM10/28/07

to

Once Upon A Time KalElFan wrote:

>The JLA movie wouldn't be animated in the Pixar style of Shrek or
>The Incredibles, but Performance Capture in the suit and action
>scenes will likewise reduce risk and give it that bigger box office
>potential. Especially with the no name cast, the movie's much
>more a memorable disaster waiting to happen if they try to play
>it all as pure live action.

You are certifiable.

**
Captain Infinity

KalElFan

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Oct 28, 2007, 3:16:48 PM10/28/07

to

"Super-Menace" <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote in message

news:271020071401572313%fort...@arctic.com.invalid...

> BTW, Kal, I thought it was fun that when Lex caught Lois in his office,
> he recognized her instantly, even though she was wearing glasses.

Yes, that was good and so was Lionel extricating himself from that trap.
It made viewers wince, but there was a Twisted aspect to this episode
that made it fun. Sometimes it was the Lionel and Lana stuff, sometimes
the kinda twisted metaphors or jokes like the cape on the fence, or the
"how dumb is the glasses disguise?" jokes. Bring Warrior Angel to town
shooting a TV series next season, with Christina Milian as a regular.
There's lots of fun and twisted story potential there, for a season.

> And: Clark's plunge off the roof was a flight....

>
> This has gotten ridiculous. Just let him frickin' fly already.

Maybe they will, but I don't think this is anywhere *near* the
major issue for the show that a few posters seem to think it
is. It'd have very little effect on ratings, simply because he
has already flown so much regardless of what they say. It'll
actually have negative effect if they have him make his first
"conscious" flight with any of the three women at this point
(Lois, Lana or Chloe). Chloe would have worked but they've
completely torched her character at this point. It'd easily be
salvageable in a half dozen episodes but they don't seem to
have any desire to do that. Which is very stupid because it
will make seasons 1-6 of the show much more unwatchable.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 28, 2007, 3:16:43 PM10/28/07

to

"redhawk" <newfou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sCyUi.263$%r.209@trnddc01...

> Probably the biggest surprise for me this season was how Kara
> and Jimmy actually made a credible couple. I would not have
> thought a Vandervoort-Ashmore pairing could anchor a series,
> but their Chinese food and chopsticks scene made a believer
> out of me.

I wasn't surprised, especially after seeing Vandervoort in a few
eps of Instant Star over different seasons. Her character did
seem to click (in potential romantic chemistry terms) with a few
different types of characters. The Smallville characterization of
Kara makes it hopeless though. That origin and backstory will
sink the character, relationship and show. The reason the Kara-
Jimmy scenes have worked on Smallville is because they've
been not only independent of her awful origin/backstory, they've
been much more true to the origin/backstory they *should* be
using. She's not the Terminator with a Murderous Father and
Uncle and Dark Evil Deeds in her past. Vandervoort can't pull
that off because no actress can pull that off as Kara/Supergirl.

It ISN'T Kara/Supergirl. Smallville has given us what effectively
amounts to a bait and switch characterization. It's been more
than hinted at with Jor-El and Martian Manhunter and will become
more apparent in these upcoming episodes with Evil Zor-El and
the Aquamarine crystal.

So their only choice is a clean reboot, non-Smallville spin-off.
It'd be a plus for the new series, in a sense, that Smallville got
the origin/backstory wrong and the new series can get it right.
They can also recast Clark, Ma, Pa and so on in recurring roles.
Get new senior PTB.

Even the atrocious non-promotion of Kara by The CW, as they
blew their brains out on Gossip Girl, becomes a plus in this new
series scenario. Assuming The CW plans to continue beyond
this season, "Kara, Supergirl" would launch much better next season
than anything they had this year. Give Smallville a final season 8
while they're at it, but make sure Lots of New is part of it, like having
Christina Milian as a credited regular. Win-win-win all around, and
the origin and backstory crap from this season gets buried like the
Faux Kara from the end of season 3 did.

KalElFan

unread,

Oct 28, 2007, 3:16:53 PM10/28/07

to

"Super-Menace" <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:271020071401572313%fort...@arctic.com.invalid...

> In article <5ofkqmF...@mid.individual.net>, KalElFan

> <kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, they brought back cousin Kara, but they used a bastardized
>> modern comic crap backstory to introduce her. It'd be funny, if it
>> wasn't sad, that even the modern comic readers rejected that.
>> The title dropped 50% in its second issue and it's down more than
>> another 50% of what was left since then. Its sales are literally less
>> than 1% of Smallville's viewership anyway, even if readers loved it.
>
> I don't think you can blame poor Supergirl sales on the new origin. I
> think the drop in sales can be blamed on Joe Kelly's initial storyline,
> which was one of the worst arcs I've read in nearly half a century of
> reading this stuff. Why they let Kelly go on and on with it, God
> knows. Good way to shoot yourself in the foot on an important
> startup, DC. I suppose we're lucky you managed to get the book
> out in the first place.

I don't know who Joe Kelly is, but I'm guessing he took over from
Loeb? Anyway, the book I'm talking about is the one Loeb started.
Issue #1 of the book sold 200,000+ copies a few years back, mainly
by promising or at least teasing the return of Kara again. I bought
that first issue (Kara was drawn anorexic), and it had Kara unsure
who she was and wondering and yada yada yada, while Power
Girl was her rival in a sense. Here's a key line from Kara in the
issue:

"Me? I'm Kara Zor-El. Supergirl. I guess. Eventually. I hope."

So thank them very much for announcing another chain pull, and
I dropped it (still have the issue). Then I learned when checking
the numbers a few months back that I definitely wasn't the only
one who stopped right there. The sales dropped to just over
100,000 for the 2nd issue. So that was the about 50% drop I
mentioned after the first one.

Since issue 2 and its 100,000+, the series has continually dropped
and it's into the 40,000-50,000 range now. So that's the more than
50% drop of what was left with issue 2 -- it's now down almost 80%
or so off its first issue a couple of years ago. It's a spectacular
slide that demonstrates the appeal of Kara but the totally screwed
up execution of the series, starting with that "Is she or isn't she?"
tease in issue 1.

I haven't read the intervening issues. But in several discussions
here on Usenet and on Kryptonsite's Smallville boards, I've seen
them described in sufficient detail and with sufficient venom to
know that it has many critics even among comic readers, as one
would expect when 4 out of 5 buyers have dropped the frakking
thing. That's a way quicker and steeper drop than Peter David
had, and he was saddled with the Matrix Supergirl trying to make
lemonade out of that lemon.

As for this new series that's dropped the 80%, here's what you
said about it 4 months ago for example:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.smallville/msg/71b2eb00892e56c2

"I don't think they quite know what they're doing. The Supergirl
in the Legion title is a traditional take on Kara. She's cute, eager
to please, the whole shebang. The Kara of the Supergirl title is --
bizarre. She was sent to Earth to murder Kal-El (why is not important
here) and her story's become a depiction of her inner struggle about
whether to murder him or not. (She apparently now thinks she
shouldn't.)

"My sense is, from reading fan comments and reviews, that the
Legion Kara is the one people want to see, and the Kara in the
Supergirl title is viewed as an aberration."

In retrospect, you had it bang-on back then and the more I've
learned about the comic title, and what Smallville is doing, the
more apparent that is. The "Kill Kal-El" stuff was an alien mind
whammy as someone corrected you at the time, but that took
18 issues to resolve and there's the Aquamarine Crystal and
the Bad Zor-El and all the rest, which *are* all part of the Kara
origin/backstory that they're using in Smallville.

So that's the only part I'm not clear on about your latest post.
You blame Joe Kelly's story, and seem to be distinguishing it
from the origin story. It may be separate technically, in the
sense that Kara is daughter of Zor-El and cousin of Kal-El.
We agreed in that earlier discussion that that was the essence
of the character, but the rest of this crap negates all that with
an origin/backstory that just isn't workable for Superman or
Supergirl. It's the same as Jor-El being a murderer at the end
of season 3 on Smallville when he conjured up Murderous Faux
Kara. Since Kal-El arrives as a baby, it isn't fatal to Smallville
but still it was very damaging because it also led to the end of
season 2 fiasco.

Warners and The CW (or whatever network) would have to
do a clean reboot for a new Kara series to be viable.

KalElFan

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Oct 28, 2007, 3:28:18 PM10/28/07

to

"Captain Infinity" <Infi...@captaininfinity.us> wrote in message

news:ltm9i310snmadbcfg...@4ax.com...

I'm always willing to accept unconditional surrenders like that, from
notorious know-nothings like yourself who pop in for a piss. But I
much prefer your last round lay-up, where you popped in and waxed
apoplectic and largely out of context, and even on that I got to rub
your know-nothing nose in some box office facts.

Anim8rFSK

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Oct 28, 2007, 4:02:44 PM10/28/07

to

In article <unl4i31d7sba1j3dd...@4ax.com>,
Captain Infinity <Infi...@captaininfinity.us> wrote:

> Once Upon A Time KalElFan wrote:
>

> >Use Performance Capture, and all that risk goes away. People
> >are struck (probably awe-struck) by the animation of not just a
> >Conductor in Polar Express,
>
> People are struck, but it's not with awe. They're dumbfounded by how
> god-awful it looks. The idea of making the "JLA Express" is the most
> ridiculous and horrifying thing I've heard in a long time.
>
>
> **
> Captain Infinity

You like mocrap a *lot* more than I do.

David Johnston

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Oct 28, 2007, 4:14:59 PM10/28/07

to

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:16:43 -0400, "KalElFan"
<kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"redhawk" <newfou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:sCyUi.263$%r.209@trnddc01...
>
>> Probably the biggest surprise for me this season was how Kara
>> and Jimmy actually made a credible couple. I would not have
>> thought a Vandervoort-Ashmore pairing could anchor a series,
>> but their Chinese food and chopsticks scene made a believer
>> out of me.
>
>I wasn't surprised, especially after seeing Vandervoort in a few
>eps of Instant Star over different seasons. Her character did
>seem to click (in potential romantic chemistry terms) with a few
>different types of characters. The Smallville characterization of
>Kara makes it hopeless though. That origin and backstory will
>sink the character, relationship and show. The reason the Kara-
>Jimmy scenes have worked on Smallville is because they've
>been not only independent of her awful origin/backstory, they've
>been much more true to the origin/backstory they *should* be
>using. She's not the Terminator with a Murderous Father and
>Uncle and Dark Evil Deeds in her past. Vandervoort can't pull
>that off because no actress can pull that off as Kara/Supergirl.

Oh please. Supergirl isn't that anyway in Smallville. The character
is being written as innocent of anything her father might have done.

KalElFan

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Oct 28, 2007, 5:16:18 PM10/28/07

to

SPOILERS here for upcoming episodes as well...

"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:6br9i3tbo4su65t62...@4ax.com...

We don't even know that yet. But even if it's true (and in the end it
probably will be true) it's small consolation. It'll just mitigate the
damage as Smallville hopefully moves on to something else, and a
Kara series reboots fresh on its own.

The market for Superman and Supergirl, in mainstream incarnations
even in comics and certainly in major TV series, is not where they
shoot up on Red K and rob banks as they had Clark doing at the
end of season 2, which sent ratings into the tank. Nor is it in having
bait and switch murderous Kara as they did at the end of season 3,
giving the show a 1-ep spike up but then sending it down again.

Along comes the opportunity to introduce a better characterization
of Kara -- her origin and backstory being key to that -- and instead
they adopt this modern comic crap story as their source. Kara's
father as a cartoon-evil murderer -- why? Apparently because in
Smallville Jor-El is just a plain murderer as he was when conjuring up
Faux Kara. So they had to take it to another level and make Zor-El
even worse. Who was the bigger bastard, Papa-El or Uncle-El?
Tune in next week to The CW's new "Kara, Supergirl" spin-off of
Smallville to find out?

Nope, it will not work as a spin-off series. It would have to reboot.
Smallville has frakked it up and it's just not fully apparent yet. We
have strong hints though, from the first ep when Kara was super-
charging at humans she'd surely kill and apparently may have (a
few other dead bodies lying around), to Jor-El warning about how
dangerous she might be, and since then Martial Manhunter doing
the same. Wait for the Dreaded Aquamarine Crystal, Activator
of Evil and Murderous Kara! They did it in the comics that have
left 4 out of 5 buyers fleeing, down to less than 1% of Smallville's
viewership! Why did Smallville follow that? Who knows or cares?
They did and there's no going back.

Thankfully, a few episodes like #3 and #5 have basically ignored
that crap or written around it. If they reboot a Kara series with
Vandervoort and Ashmore it can still work very well. The ratings
for the first episode (first year-over-year increase in five seasons,
best year-over-previous-finale in five seasons) as well as the non-
CW coverage Supergirl got demonstrate the inherent appeal of
Cousin Kara played by Vandervoort. The first Loeb issue's sales
demonstrated the enduring market appeal of Cousin Kara. Since
then the comic has demonstrated what not to do, and so has
Smallville in its following of that. But glimpses of what will work
have shone through on Smallville.

Warners and The CW is better off selling a Kara series as new
anyway, and so now it has even more reason to do that. Give
Smallville a final season 8 at the same time.

Martin Phipps

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Oct 28, 2007, 10:27:14 PM10/28/07

to

On Oct 29, 1:57 am, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Super-Menace" <fortr...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote in message

I think Brandon Routh is a bit better than Welling, who is still
looking too young to play an adult Superman. I would have wanted
Welling for the JLA movie though, although as we are getting Barry
Allen and not Bart as the Flash it is clear that the JLA movie is not
based on Smallville but is a separate entity.

Martin

Martin Phipps

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Oct 28, 2007, 10:43:10 PM10/28/07

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On Oct 29, 1:57 am, "KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>
> > Officially the director of JLA doesn't want Welling because HE is not
> > a Smallville fan and doesn't want to make a Smallville movie.
>
> Do you have a link to the interview or other source where George
> Miller said that? It's plausible, and interesting, but it's the first time
> I've heard that.

I'll have to get back with you on that. I've been reading joblo.com
and superherohype.com

> > Note that the Flash will be Barry Allen in the movie and not Bart.
>
> Which is good IMO, and I agree with the movie being a completely
> new incarnation. It's not Smallville and not the Singer/Routh movie,
> but that point's easy to make and doesn't preclude casting Welling.

True. But casting Welling is problematic because people will be more
likely to expect cross continuity between Smallville and the
(potential) movie series.

> > Oh and Lex Luthor won't be the villain: it will be Max Lord. It's
> > good to have a JLA villain rather than a purely Superman villain.
>
> I have no idea who Max Lord is but I have no problem with it being
> a new or JLA villain. I saw one online comment -- purely anecdotal
> and hardly indicative of anything -- that the script was based on a
> JLA comic story that the poster said was awful.

Did you see the Superman Doomsday cartoon? It would be possible to
take an awful comics storyline and make a pretty decent movie.

> Even if it was, it
> doesn't preclude a good adaptation and George Miller ought to be
> able to elevate whatever it is. This is yet another reason why I
> think the mo-cap and performance capture element, for the action
> and costume scenes, is needed though. An animated movie like
> The Incredibles does huge box office, same with Shrek and so on,
> and the story is given much more latitude by moviegoers. It tends
> to be judged more as visual entertainment, including for kids or the
> whole family. If they get it right, there's much less risk and bigger
> upside.

Yeah, with motion capture they could use Welling's image and make him
a bit older. But that isn't what the director wants.

> The JLA movie wouldn't be animated in the Pixar style of Shrek or
> The Incredibles, but Performance Capture in the suit and action
> scenes will likewise reduce risk and give it that bigger box office
> potential. Especially with the no name cast, the movie's much
> more a memorable disaster waiting to happen if they try to play
> it all as pure live action.

Performance capture would streamline the cuts from "live action" to
special effects. It's a great idea.

Martin

Super-Menace

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Oct 28, 2007, 10:57:59 PM10/28/07

to

In article <1193624834....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Martin Phipps <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I thought I would throw in here that Bart Allen was killed off
recently, and Wally West is back as the Flash. I don't know why they
keep returning to Barry, who's been dead for more than twenty years
now.

Super-Menace

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Oct 28, 2007, 11:07:40 PM10/28/07

to

In article <5ok5h8F...@mid.individual.net>, KalElFan
<kalelfa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't know who Joe Kelly is, but I'm guessing he took over from
> Loeb? Anyway, the book I'm talking about is the one Loeb started.

Yes, that's the same book, and I managed to confuse the issue by
mistakenly using the word "initial." It was Loeb, then Greg Rucka for
one issue, and then Kelly, who sent the reboot down the Almighty Swirl.
Sorry.

We still agree. This doesn't work at all.

Anim8rFSK

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Oct 29, 2007, 12:17:12 AM10/29/07

to

In article <281020072257595685%fort...@arctic.com.invalid>,
Super-Menace <fort...@arctic.com.invalid> wrote:

Well, he's only slightly dead.

Bill Steele

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Oct 29, 2007, 3:26:17 PM10/29/07

to

In article <vKyUi.149953$Da.98601@pd7urf1no>,
"Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:

> I haven't heard a plausible explanation for why superheroes tend to have
> capes...

Back when Superman was leaping instead of flying he once explained that
he used the cape to steer a bit, and it was mentioned that he hid his
Clark Kent suit under the cape (presumably a very compressible suit).

But I think the explanation that artists used the cape to show motion is
the most logical. Explains Captain Marvel, too, even though Black Adam
got along without one.

Batman may have started it. He wore a cape to make himself look like a
bat and scare crooks.

The Shadow used a cape to help him hide in the shadows.

Zorro had a cape because, I think, in those days people wore capes.

Anim8rFSK

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Oct 29, 2007, 9:42:58 PM10/29/07

to

In article <ws21-64C7CE.1...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
Bill Steele <ws...@cornell.edu> wrote:

> In article <vKyUi.149953$Da.98601@pd7urf1no>,
> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:
>
> > I haven't heard a plausible explanation for why superheroes tend to have
> > capes...
>
> Back when Superman was leaping instead of flying he once explained that
> he used the cape to steer a bit, and it was mentioned that he hid his
> Clark Kent suit under the cape (presumably a very compressible suit).
>
> But I think the explanation that artists used the cape to show motion is
> the most logical. Explains Captain Marvel, too, even though Black Adam
> got along without one.
>
> Batman may have started it. He wore a cape to make himself look like a
> bat and scare crooks.

Batman wears a cape because Zorro did.

>
> The Shadow used a cape to help him hide in the shadows.
>
> Zorro had a cape because, I think, in those days people wore capes.

Also the cape disguises your form.

Adam H. Kerman

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Oct 30, 2007, 1:31:59 AM10/30/07

to

Bradster <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:

>I don't for a second believe that this is THE cape. It is just blatantly
>placed symbolism and foreshadowing. Clearly, Clark is not interested in
>pursuing his destiny (even though he told his mom that he was going to once
>all the phantoms were dealt with). He has even convinced Lana to go
>along...althought it appears she has an alterior motive.

I have forgotten the end of last season. How did they write Clark's mom
out of the show? Making her an instant politician was absurd.

Adam H. Kerman

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Oct 30, 2007, 1:37:33 AM10/30/07

to

Bill Steele <ws...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <vKyUi.149953$Da.98601@pd7urf1no>,
> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote:
>
>> I haven't heard a plausible explanation for why superheroes tend to have
>> capes...

>Back when Superman was leaping instead of flying he once explained that
>he used the cape to steer a bit, and it was mentioned that he hid his
>Clark Kent suit under the cape (presumably a very compressible suit).

One of Superman's powers is superspeed ironing.

BC

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Oct 30, 2007, 11:42:53 AM10/30/07

to

"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ANIM8Rfsk-BC3BB...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com...

Actually I think it helps keep Supe dry when he flies through the clouds.
Same for Zorro -- riding in bad weather or on a dewy night. Same for the
BAT lurking on the rooftops but Spidey doesn't need one -- it would only get
tangled in his web. The rest of the super heroes are pretty much just
pussies anyway. :-)

Bill Steele

unread,

>She went off to Congress and was never seen or heard from or mentioned
>again, even though there immediately was a huge disaster in her
>district, etc. etc. etc.. She just vanished from sight and memory.

Thanks. I was worried that there was a plot hole and/or inconsistency in
the Smallville universe.

Anim8rFSK

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Oct 31, 2007, 12:52:04 PM10/31/07

to

In article <47281757$0$47119$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,

Gasp! Never!

~consul

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Oct 31, 2007, 4:20:48 PM10/31/07

to

and thus BC inscribed ...
> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
>> Cats can reorient themselves in freefall...errr..."flighty". Humans are
>> also be to accomplish this feat (even with superpowers) given enough
>> distance, muscle strength, and flexibility.
> Scientific American did an article on cat's falling. Cats falling from a
> height of many stories flatten out and fall like a sky diver and it saves
> them injuries. From lower heights they suffer more injuries because they
> can't flatten out in time so they break legs. But they can flip over
> quickly.

I forget which comedian said it, but I always liked it: If the cat still lands on their feet, you didn't throw it hard enough. :)
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

BC

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Oct 31, 2007, 6:12:10 PM10/31/07

to

"~consul" <con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in message
news:fgao35$dgf$1...@gist.usc.edu...

> and thus BC inscribed ...
>> "Bradster" <bdhayR...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message
>>> Cats can reorient themselves in freefall...errr..."flighty". Humans are
>>> also be to accomplish this feat (even with superpowers) given enough
>>> distance, muscle strength, and flexibility.
>> Scientific American did an article on cat's falling. Cats falling from
>> a height of many stories flatten out and fall like a sky diver and it
>> saves them injuries. From lower heights they suffer more injuries
>> because they can't flatten out in time so they break legs. But they can
>> flip over quickly.
>
> I forget which comedian said it, but I always liked it: If the cat still
> lands on their feet, you didn't throw it hard enough. :)

Isn't it the British that say "Not enough room to swing a cat" when
describing how small a room is?

redhawk

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Oct 31, 2007, 6:26:03 PM10/31/07

to

On Oct 31, 3:12 pm, "BC" <bcpho...@att.net> wrote:
> "~consul" <con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fgao35$dgf$1...@gist.usc.edu...
>
> > and thus BC inscribed ...

> >> "Bradster" <bdhayREMOV...@ATHotmailDOT.com> wrote in message

> >>> Cats can reorient themselves in freefall...errr..."flighty". Humans are
> >>> also be to accomplish this feat (even with superpowers) given enough
> >>> distance, muscle strength, and flexibility.
> >> Scientific American did an article on cat's falling. Cats falling from
> >> a height of many stories flatten out and fall like a sky diver and it
> >> saves them injuries. From lower heights they suffer more injuries
> >> because they can't flatten out in time so they break legs. But they can
> >> flip over quickly.
>
> > I forget which comedian said it, but I always liked it: If the cat still
> > lands on their feet, you didn't throw it hard enough. :)
>
> Isn't it the British that say "Not enough room to swing a cat" when
> describing how small a room is?

http://www.answers.com/topic/not-enough-room-to-swing-a-cat

"not enough room to swing a cat:

Very little space, cramped quarters, as in: There's not enough room to
swing a cat in this tent. This expression, first recorded in 1771, is
thought to allude to the cat-o'-nine-tails, or "cat," a whip with nine
lashes widely used to punish offenders in the British military."

Brits sometimes do say that, but are not referring to a cuddly feline.

BC

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Oct 31, 2007, 7:21:24 PM10/31/07

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"redhawk" <newfou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1193869563....@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

thanks -- I must have gotten that saying confused with the scene from Monty
Python's Holy Grail (I think it was that film) where on a few occasions
someone would swing a cat or beat it into a wall etc. It was during the
"bring out your dead" sequence.

Glad there are other people on here with curiosity. :-)