OT (grant-related, not Riv-related): lo-carb, high fat & protein, ketosis, &c.

[David Banzer]

First off, this isn't necessarily Riv-related, or even bike-related technically, but it is Grant-related. If this falls outside the parameters of this list, let me know, and Jim feel free to delete.

I've been following Grant's new blog for his new book and am genuinely interested in the diet/exercise viewpoint that he discusses and follows.
I guess my questions are (and answers probably should be offlist I guess):
Anyone follow a similar diet?
Your general experiences?
Your reasons for adopting this diet, and your experience in the transition period?
Difficulties?
What would you bring on a lengthy bike ride (bike-related!) or overnight?
Thanks,
David
Chicago

[Jon in the foothills of Central Colorado]

I've lost 20 lbs since June.

 I have read some of Grant's blog from his new book and I have read Just Ride. He has many good points

What works for me: no carbs.No toast or grains for breakfast. Milk has lots of sugar. I'll eat 2 scrambled eggs with some chopped turkey and onions.No more Friday pizza night.No more homemade bread.I  snack on fruit..a few nuts ,apples my fave.I drink lots of water.I SOMETIMES do eat pancakes BEFORE a strenuous bike ride.  I ride my road bike for 90 miles/week, intense exercise and weight loss. I don't eat any carbs after exercise . I drink coconut water during and after exercise..It works for me for recovery(low calories, 400 gms potassium) No energy drinks or sugar filled fruit juice. Eat dinner early as possible.No snacking after dinner. It's okay for your stomach to feel hungry or empty.VERY IMPORTANT..portion size, portion size. My wife and I split a rib eye, or chicken breast.Switch from 12" plate to 9" plate.Cut out fried food... you can roast or grill. or steam vegetables and meat.Same for fish.Stay away from prepared foods from the grocery.They are full of sodium and fat. Cook from scratch.Substitute Greek yogurt for sour cream.I don't drink alcohol.Eat lots of salads but limit those heavy salad dressings.

Everyone is different....As you age your metabolism slows and it takes more to burn off the calories.

That's what works for me. Hope that get's you motivated. I feel better.It's easier to climb those hills.

Jon

[Mathew Greiner]

My son is on a ketogenic diet for seizure control, so I know a fair amount about the mechanics of ketosis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/magazine/21Epilepsy-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I tried an Atkins variation last year. It worked well, but it was hard for me to maintain. I quit after about 8 weeks.

Transition happens around two weeks in. There were two or three days of sluggishness, much like days that I maybe didn't get as much sleep as I like. Right in the middle of those days I had one day-—more like 8 hours—where I felt outright sick. Not severely so, but enough that I spent the day on the couch. It's possible that I was just sick.

For a while I had really sore legs. Enough to keep me from sleeping. Turned out that's a common side effect, and is correctable with a potassium supplement (works fast-take them from the get go and you'll have no problems).

After transition, I always felt good. Plenty of energy for short daily jogs and whatever biking I wanted.

If your fat and proteins are in the right ratio and carbs are essentially eliminated, excess calories are not really an issue. You can eat how much you want and still lose. You probably won't, though. My appetite declined and I didn't mind feeling hungry. I was not in an environment that encouraged success in this, though. And I really, really missed veggies and any sort of little bit of sweetness.

My question for Grant has been this (it's a tough one for me): without toast, what do you use to soak up egg yolks at breakfast? Been meaning to send him a postcard just to ask that.

[grrlyrida]

I lost 30 lbs doing a modified whole 30. I cut out all grains, dairy (which I rarely ate anyway) and sugar. But the best thing that happened was that my asthma disappeared. I stopped using my advair and rescue inhalers. I've been asthmatic for 25 years! After the 1st month I planned to go back to my regular diet, but kept with the program and now it has become part of my lifestyle. I did try to eat some grains for my birthday, but I suffered so at night with asthma that I never tried any again. I eat egg whites, rarely, because I don't like the taste of yolks. I still won't touch dairy and my sugar addiction seems to be under control too. I don't eat any frozen or processed foods. Because I'm professionally trained pastry chef, I substituted flours with nut flours. Now I make cauliflower wraps, cashew flour biscuits, rutabaga pasta, etc. I don't eat beef, pork or chicken, so I eat a lot of seafood and fish. I also cut out those processed soy products and tofu. Now I eat fish, vegetables, fruit and nuts. I eat cocoa, but not often. I use stevia, not sugar. For baked goods I'll use almond flour for cookies or cakes and dates or honey as the sweetener. But eating baked goods is a once a month endeavor for me now. In my tea is unsweetened almond milk. I also log everything I eat through lose it.com. It keeps me honest. 

Unfortunately I'm a Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott girl and won't camp. Maybe some other posters can speak on what to bring on overnight bike trip. I know I keep a package of nuts and a piece of fruit with me when I'm out and about just incase I get hungry and food options are poor.

[Deacon Patrick]

David,

I replied off list. Let me know if you didn't get it (I know it can be squirrelly sometimes). I forgot to mention, but my wife reminded me that it also cured by acid reflux and allergies/sinus issues I'd had for years.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mojo]

I started a low carb diet in fall 2011. I found giving up my sugar addiction quite dramatic, but bacon helped. I lost 12 lbs. My blood numbers improved,: triglycerides went from 230 to 70, LDL from 36 to 54, LDL remained unchanged so my total cholesterol actually increased.. I eat no sugars in the mornings, typically eggs veges meat coffee. I eat plenty of full fat dairy & handfulls of almonds daily. I never drink sweet drinks (but am having a German beer per day on this trip). Cheating is allowed every day & some days I choose not to. Hunger is very different, no longer a desperate crash. I carry nuts & jerky during aerobic exercise. I no longer honk, just begin to wind down until fat levels are topped off. Two friends joined me with this new diet & have had more dramatic results.

I have become strongly convinced that sugar is highly addictive and toxic.

[Mojo]

Stoopid autocorrect... HDL is now in the 50s. And I no longer bonk....

[blakcloud]

I need to lose weight quickly as a requirement for a hernia operation. The hospital suggested a low carb diet, which I tried. One month later I had lost twenty pounds from 191 to 171. The diet was hard for me as I drink at least one coke a day with a chocolate bar, I love pasta, and all kinds of bread. The diet was a success, my operation is over and I am two weeks into recovery.

The diet did two things, I lost weight (to be expected) but more importantly I started watching what I eat. It was a complete change in how I thought about food, it certainly made me more mindful of when I eat, why I eat and portion sizes. I don't follow the same restrictive diet but I do follow a similar approach by keep it low carbs. During the diet I was always hungry and even now I find myself hungry quite a bit but I don't' indulge. As Jon said above, it's alright to be hungry. Sometimes I know I am hungry out of boredom more than anything else and that isn't a reason to eat. 

I haven't figured out the meat portion of my new way of eating but typically I don't eat a lot of meat as  my Japanese wife cooks mostly Japanese food which usually means very small portions of meat. So I don't know about the bacon part. I am looking forward to reading Grant's new book. Somehow I think it will be similar to his first book. Some of it I will agree with and some of it I think will be hogwash.

As for bike related overnights, can't help you there. You couldn't pay me to camp. Like grrlyrida, I am a hotel kind of person.

[BenG]

I started low-carb diet on Sunday 10/26, at 195# dressed for work.  I clicked over when Grant blogged that fat accumulating on the outside is an indicator of things going on inside.  So far the change has been relatively easy - one grocery trip, some low blood sugars (like 47, 50, 53, 57) and some high ones (like 234, 268) as I adjust my insulin pump program while my body processes change.  I use fatsecret.com to look up carb content in everything, and I still dose insulin according to actual carb content, low as it is.  Reduction in insulin load is about 50% per day so far.  Blood sugar deviates less, and are centered where I want them.  Lost 3 pounds last week.  Rode my 20mi round trip commute twice and was fine, enjoyed it.

I'm encouraged, looking forward to another week. And to showing outcomes to my endocrinologist, who is also a type1 diabetic on a pump.  She's skinny and her pump's glucose display is usually right around 70, so maybe it'll just be "I told you so".  Should be fun.

 

[Wayne Naha]

I've been doing this diet since the middle of August, and I've lost 21 pounds to date.  My main reason for adopting the diet was to lose weight, and increase my level of fitness.  My weight made exercise awful because of knee and joint pain.  I don't recall any particular difficulties during the transition period, with the exception of some rather persistent diarrhea.  There were times when I didn't dare cough!  The diet is not hard for me to stick to, though I have had dreams about cookies.  I miss bread, but mostly as a convenience, as in not requiring a knife and fork, or not getting your hands messy and making for easier lunches to pack.  My blood pressure is lower, but that's about it, as far as any other health benefit.  As for what to bring on an overnight ride, one of the things that happens on this diet is a reduced need and desire to eat, because you are running off your fat stores.  So you can bring less.  For an overnight, I'd bring nuts, sardines, hard boiled eggs, etc.  For a day trip, just the nuts.  Maybe even nothing if starting out with a good breakfast.

[Corwin]

I've been cutting back on carbs for about four years. I watched the Gary Taubes videos recorded by Grant a couple months after they were posted on Youtube. Still kicking myself for not attending in person. After watching the videos, I decided to read Good Calories, Bad Calories. That book changed my life.

Now I understand how I can go for a long run or bike ride, lose five pounds or so (possibly all water) and then gain it all back (and more!) eating the "endurance athelete's" dinner of pasta. I no longer eat pasta. Still eat the sauces (especially pesto!) though.

About food for sub24O - I would take some hard cheese, Framani Chorizo and canned oysters. Probably some raw veggies too - like carrots or cherry tomatoes.

Not sure why Grant does not love kale - perhaps he's never tried this kale salad:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/RCP02206/Tuscan-Kale-Salad.html

I adopted the change after watching friends and family suffer from diabetes and related conditions. Never had a big problem keeping the weight off - but it's sure a lot easier now. I guess my only difficulty transitioning was with potassium. I get terrible leg cramps when I don't consume enough potassium. Before going low carb, I used to control this by eating a few bananas each week. After going low carb, nothing seemed to work. Tried V8 juice. Tried potassium supplements. No help. Then I discovered there are 800 mg of potassium in a large russet. Now I eat a large, baked russet (lots of butter) every three weeks or so. No more cramps.

Good luck. And let us know how it goes.


Corwin

On Sunday, November 2, 2014 12:24:52 PM UTC-8, David Banzer wrote:

[Jason Hartman]

Not to hijack the thread, but is there any reason that a thin healthy person with good cholesterol, blood numbers, etc, should even consider this diet?

Is there any other benefit to be had?

Jay Hartman. 

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[Deacon Patrick]

If "good cholesterol" means "low cholesterol" then you are likely not improving heart health any and are depriving your brain and neurological systems of a nutrient they need (cholesterol), leading to higher rates of altzheimer's, MS, and more. 

With abandon,

Patrick

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[sameness]

A canned sardine, Roquefort, coconut and yogurt omelette is its own reward.

Knock it back with a steaming mug of ghee tea and world is your, err... oyster.

Jeff "I Test My Blood with a Gränsfors" Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

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[Jason Hartman]

No, not at all. The last time it was checked, my good cholesterol was 100 and my bad was 130. I love sardines, and fish in general. I just haven't given up on carbs. 

Would it make a difference?

That is what I want to know. Is this a diet just for people who are overweight? Or with health problems in general?

Curious minds and all that. 

Jay Hartman. 

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/04/2014 09:06 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:

If "good cholesterol" means "low cholesterol" then you are likely not improving heart health any and are depriving your brain and neurological systems of a nutrient they need (cholesterol), leading to higher rates of altzheimer's, MS, and more.

I think he's referring to HDL & LDL, as for example in this quote:  "Although your doctor may have told you to lower your total cholesterol, it's important to raise your high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, which is known as the "good" cholesterol. It might sound like a mixed message, but reducing "bad" low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol and increasing HDL cholesterol may lower your risk of heart disease."

[Patrick Moore]

Once again, let's not forget that millions, if not billions, of people lived and live healthily -- at least, free of diseases endemic to modern Western diets -- by eating largely grains, vegetables, and a little fish and meat. The Japanese are not known for diabetes, heart disease, obesity, or short lives. My mother has lived for 91 years largely on white rice and very little fat.

This does not mean that a high fat, high protein diet won't help some people, but it does mean that a high fat, high protein diet is not needed by everyone.

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[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing so.”

                                                                                    -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money. 

                                                                               -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying

[Patrick Moore]

I forgot to add that my mother has controlled type 2 diabetes and heart disease for 25 years by cutting back on fats and sugars and eating, again, rice, vegetables, and styrofoam chicken. She didn't get diabetes and heart disease by eating rice, vegetables, and styrofoam chicken. We buy her long grain rice in 50 lb bags at Costco.

[Ron Mc]

While I'm not quite lean and racy, I've never been overweight in 57 years - I see friends all around me leaning out to gaunt with new diets while other friends slide into type II diabetes.  My sister has become a food nazi and preaches carb evils to anyone who will listen - her residual cravings have not improved her mood or judgment.  A 53-y-o gentleman uphill from me died of a heart-attack this weekend - going for a walk.  I have a friend from high school I used take hiking and wade-fishing - I don't do it any more because last time I was afraid he was going to pass on my watch.  I still vote for all things in moderation and keep getting stronger on your bike.  I;m going to eat my kolache now.  

[Addison Wilhite]

I'll throw one other variable into this conversation.  Environmentally speaking, meat production in this country (and others) has a terrible cost.  Yes, there are options for those who can afford it, to buy organic, make sure the animals are treated "humanely" and not pumped with antibiotics, etc. etc.  That ability/luxury feels like a really smug 1st world problem to me.   I'm no longer a vegetarian but I've largely kept to a very "meat lite" diet because I personally feel it's irresponsible not to.  Kind of similar to my "car lite" lifestyle.  That's my choice.  But I also try to keep an eye on all components of my diet included simple carbs which are quite bad as well.  Moderation!

I guess I'm the contrarian who at almost 48, avoids bacon and is about to run his first marathon.  I'm 5'6" and 140 lbs. with no health issues (knock on wood).  On a biking note...my power output since getting back into running has really been noticeable.  I'm riding most everything in the big ring which is kind of fun.

Regards,

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Educator: Professional Portfolio

Blogger: Reno Rambler 

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee

[Deacon Patrick]

The problem you describe, Addison, is not with meat itself, but with modern animal husbandry practices, which largely are the result of feeding animals grain rather than their natural diet of grass and wild foraging. Hormones and antibiotics and pesticides are not generally needed for grass fed animals, and they get to live life on the open range. Proper grazing practices actually help promote strong plant growth and prevent the arid-ization of land. These practices are easily and cheaply implemented in third world countries.

You are right, that current grain-fed meat costs less than grass fed. This is because our nation has a highly subsidized (and thus false) grain economy. Get ride of grain subsidies and prices are at parody.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Trenker]

I would say that parody has been achieved.

[Deacon Patrick]

Och! Parity. Good catch!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Evan]

Jay Hartman: I, too, have asked that question: Namely, if I'm already slender and healthy and reasonably fit, would a low-carb, high-fat diet make me healthier still? Perhaps it would. And perhaps Grant's book will help to explain. In the meantime, I think Gary Taubes said something to the effect of this: If you're fat, carbs did it. If you're not fat, you're not fat.

[Chris Lampe 2]

Believing that carbs are the sole or even primary cause of obesity requires you to completely disregard the bulk of humanity that exists on a high carb diet and yet is healthy.  

I follow a lot of nutrition websites, including several run by folks with PhD's in the biological sciences and who do professional research in nutrition and obesity.  They say that nobody in the relevant scientific community takes Taube's theory seriously.  Research reportedly shows that low-carb and low-fat diets have equally dismal results at one year out.  These same scientists admit that some people do seem to benefit from a low-carb diet but it is very far from a requirement.  In fact, one of the most well respected bloggers (she wrote a well loved criticism of "The China Studay" and it's call for a vegan or vegetarian diet) presented a talk in which she found that among diabetics, a low-carb diet controls the systems but a low-fat diet (<10% fat and primarily vegetarian) actually CURES diabetes.  

My favorite blogger is a guy named Stephan Guyenet.  He's an obesity researcher and his theory is that it's simply a calorie surplus that is caused by a combination of factors.  Excess refined carbs are definately one of them but his primary emphasis is food palatability, which theorizes that certain combinations of fat, salt, sugar and refined carbohydrates alters our neurological appetite regulation, causing us to overeat.  Our horrible food environment is also noted as a culprit.   His personal recommendation is a diet of whole foods (a good idea that few could argue with and that most diets incorporate) with an emphasis on starches and vegetables with smaller amounts of animal proteins.....just like the blue zone people who have the highest longevity rates in the world.  

It's way more complex than just carbs.  

[Chris Lampe 2]

I would invite anyone who is interested in alternative viewpoints to follow the link provided here and read some of Dr. Guyenet's work.  Pay particular attention to the "tasteless liquid through a straw" experiment.  The results indicate that something really is different in the brains of obese people vs the brains of normal weight people.  

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/food-reward-dominant-factor-in-obesity.html

[Bill Lindsay]

Gary Taubes writes a book.  Somebody who doesn't agree says "It's way more complex than just carbs"

Stephan Guyenet wirtes a blog.  Somebody who doesn't agree says.  "It's way more complex than just calories in vs calories out"

Both "critics" are factually correct in saying it's more complex than just one thing.  But neither of those two writers claim that it's just one thing.  I'll check out Stephan Guyenet, and I liked the tasteless liquid post, but I don't see how that's in any way counter to Gary Taubes.  When I read Taubes book, it made me want to eat less pizza, and cut out soda entirely.  Now I snack on nuts instead of Doritos.  I don't think Guyenet would tell me I made a bad decision.  There's a lot more common ground than people make it out to be.  Both would say "eat less garbage".  

The thing that Taubes critics seem to consistently miss is Taubes entire argument is based not on carbs, but on genetics.  Everything about the diet you need to find for yourself is you developing a workaround for the genetic hand you were dealt.  Some people eat lots of carbs and stay skinny, because their genetic hand allows it.  Good for them.  You should only expect to get the same results as that person if you copy their diet and their genetics.    

 

[Deacon Patrick]

Alternative viewpoints to what? Low carb? The standard American diet? I didn't see any new information there and I saw nothing that refutes a low carb approach. One reality I've personally experienced, and the science supports, is that meals high in fat (in my case, 80-90% of calories come from fat) are amazingly satiating and filling and satisfying and also trigger the "I'm full" as appropriate. The result is the same as the experiments Guyenet cites, but with the added benefit of amazing, tasty food.

These folks went on a self-regulated calorie negative diet, which by definition means they were in ketosis most of the time (possibly all the time), getting nearly all their energy from their body's fat stores. This would seem to confirm the health benefits of switching from sugar burning/fat storing to fat burning, which is precisely what a paleo or low carb diet does.

Also, those studies do not explore the question "Why did those folks have issues with the pleasure center of their brain, causing them to over eat?" One very plausible explanation, which the science supports, is it is the result of the carb/insulin cycle altering brain as well as body chemistry. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for posting this, Chris. My own guiding principle in such matters is "nil novum sub sole" and my guiding rule is that any theory (in diet as in other matters) that purports to be radically different will go away within a decade.

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[Patrick Moore]

Incidentally, remembering the story in Daniel about the captives turning away the rich meats offered by the king and turning out healthier than everyone else on a diet of legumes, I was amused and appalled to see that even this has been turned into a theory and a diet.

[Patrick Moore]

Patrick: how do you explain the Japanese? They are notorious for longevity, low chronic ailments, and a diet low on bacon and steak and high on rice.

This is a serious question, not a challenge.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Deacon will answer as well, in his own inimitable manner, but the answer is obvious:  because they are genetically predisposed to be that way  

Gary Taubes talks about Japan specifically in his writing.  There's no conflict or contradiction or controversy about Japan.  

[franklyn]

Taube's book just gave me, and just about every Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, East Inidan, and Vietnamese person an excuse to ignore Grant's new book, since all of our ancestors mainly ate grains--mostly rice, and never seemed to exhibit pandemic obesity and the chronic diseases that come with them. I am really glad about it since I am a vegan for other reasons. 

so glad...

Franklyn

[franklyn]

Wait, didn't the irish mainly subsist on potatoes, or is that a myth? If they did, did they have a obesity epidemic, or was the life expectancy so short that most folks died of something else before they got fat?

Wait, what's the life expectancy of our paleo ancestors? 

Franklyn

[Patrick Moore]

Indians, Nepalese, Filipinos, Kenyans (posho), Italians, Chinese, French, Irish, Polish, pre-modern Europeans, and on and on and on ...

Your answer doesn't work, it seems to me.

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[Patrick Moore]

Do I detect irony?

Quite seriously: I don't deny that some people have benefited in some ways from the "paleo" diet. What I dispute is that it represents a universal norm. History shows that it does not do so.

I think that we have to look elsewhere for the pandemic of obesity and chronic diseases that plague modernity.

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[Chris Lampe 2]

I'm not totally anti-Taubes and in fact, when I first read his books, I bought it hook-line-and-sinker but further reading of other viewpoints and more importantly, actual researchers and experts in the field (Taubes is a journalist, albeit a very intelligent and physics educated journalist) has convinced me that Taubes' focus is just too narrow.  Last I heard he was moving more toward a "sugar is the devil" viewpoint and collaborating with Dr. Lustig on a new book.  I think that's a more specific shot in the right direction.  Also, to give Taubes credit, he founded an organization with another blogger (whose name I forget but it's very Greek) to fund research into his ideas.  

I would encourage people to do their own reading and come to their own conclusions about this stuff.  I think the Ancestral Health folks are on the right track with their emphasis on natural meats, vegetables, fruits and nuts.  They are coming around to accepting starchy tubers and rice as acceptable but this wasn't the case a few years ago when Taubes was a leading influence for them.  Humans have too many genetic markers for digesting starches to assume that these mostly carb foods are bad for us.  A resistance to grass grains, sugar and vegetable oils is much easier to support.  

[Chris Lampe 2]

Researchers are now saying that a person could almost live on potatoes alone and be healthy.  They actually have almost all the nutrients necessary to sustain life.   This probably wouldn't work for someone who already has Type 2 Diabetes but a normal weight person probably isn't going to get fat eating potatoes.  

[Deacon Patrick]

Patrick,

Excellent question. I know this gets explored and, to my mind, answered in "The Perfect Health Diet" -- but the general concept is that the traditional diet, on Okinawa for example, was very high fat (pork) and some rice and tubers (safe starches). The newer generation(s) eating less meat and fat and more rice are experiencing the "diseases of civilization," which were previously unheard of in those parts.

Additionally, the religious practice of intermittent fasting on a regular basis dramatically helps heal the body, with the body entering into autophagia, in which the many and various "leftover" bits floating around are consumed and used for energy rather than lingering and causing problems. From my reading,t here are two camps that consistently live a long time: high fat/low carb (natural fats, not industrial, and high in leafy greens) or some version of intermittent fasting and intentional calorie restriction (like the diet of a monk).

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

1. I think a vast array of diets work for different people.  Do you agree?

2. I think the reason a vast array of diets work for different people because people differ.  Do you agree?

3. I think a bad combination of Diet x Genetics can have bad results.  Do you agree?

4. I think that the diet that works for person A might not work for person B, because they might be different.  Do you agree?

5. I think everyone would be better off (at least no worse off) with zero Doritos and soda pop.  Do you agree?

I think we might be 5 for 5 on this, Patrick Moore.  Sometimes you are determined to disagree with me, but I think you're going to have to look hard to find a reason on this.  

[Patrick Moore]

But that doesn't explain the mainstream Japanese diet and the noted longevity and general health of the mainstream Japanese. Nor the health of starch eating populations over the greater part of history.

[Patrick Moore]

This doesn't answer the question! Are you saying that the Paleo diet works well for a very small number of people?

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[Bill Lindsay]

I don't know how many people the Paleo diet does not work for.  I don't know how many people get fat on leafy greens and healthy meat.  I don't know how many people cut the sugars and get fatter.  I don't know how many people cut bread from their diet and get fatter.  I do know that Paleo is very Pro-Carb.  The favorite paleo snack is a sweet potato microwaved.  I do know that Paleo is rice-ambivalent.  My Filipino wife feeds me plenty of rice.  

[Ron Mc]

If we're going to get paleo, let's talk about lifespan.  Paleo lifespan was in the teens - it moved into the 40s with the advent of grain agriculture.  

If a diet works for you, more power to you, just don't impale other healthy people with it.  

Let's talk about obesity.  It's also paleo.  It's your body deciding that you mean to do this - store up fat, so your metabolism drops and you store up fat.  

BTW, when you gain weight, you add fat cells, When you lose weight, your fat cells never decrease, they just lean out.  So maintaining a healthy weight and an active metabolism goes a long to naturally regulating your diet.  

Also don't stick "American" fast fooddiet  on those of us who don't eat it.  I did have French Fries once this year - they were pretty good - they didn't hurt me.  

[Deacon Patrick]

You are right, Patrick. It does not explain it. But it is explainable (and I think part of the explanation is found in a more accurate understanding of the mainstream Japanese diet and the actual number of calories they are getting. They are far closer to paleo than perhaps you are thinking?). I'd be happy to loan you my Perfect Health Diet Kindle edition if you would like. That way you can look into it directly. PM me and I'll try and figure out how to do that.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Actually, Paleo is a poor diet description, as it is really an umbrella that hold a LOT of specific camps. Some paleo embraces white rice and potatoes and sweet potatoes/yams as a great way to get safe starches (starches free of anti-nutrients, like found in grains) -- so 2-4 fistfuls of rice or other safe starches are just fine. This is how I ate, once every 24 hours, before going ketogenic full time.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

There is simply too much we do not know to say the paleo lifespan was (pick your number). This offers some reasons why: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/bone-dating-life-span/#axzz3IKPGQaXH

and this:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/life-expectancy-hunter-gatherer/#axzz3IKPtXtv5

There may even be evidence to indicate that people evolved to have a large number of elderly "grandparents" with them, to help with the children while parents provided. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/hunter-gatherer-lifespan/#axzz3IKPtXtv5

As for the variety of "paleo diets": http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-hunter-gatherer-diets-varied/#axzz3IKPtXtv5

With abandon,

Patrick

[Goshen Peter]

Well I love candy and chocolate but isn't processed sugar essentially a poison that our body reacts to when we eat it?

[Ron Mc]

I love honey, eat a few skittles and Mrs. Annie's Pecan brittle.  It's not my diet, but I have a sweet tooth.  Part of that is my mother is the best dessert cook on the planet and wow, her blackberry cobler - my dad grows the berries in his garden.  Bacon - I occasionally buy a few slcies at the deli counter.  When I eat it, it goes in my breakfast tacos (my papas are perfect) and right after that, I'll either bicycle 30 miles or wade 5.  

[Ron Mc]

as should add my honey is local wild honey - I think it helps me fight allergies.  I could be wrong, and won't write a book about it.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/06/2014 05:02 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:

There is simply too much we do not know to say the paleo lifespan was (pick your number).

There never was any such thing as "the paleo life" any more than there was a single "paleo" diet.  There were many different paleolithic life styles and many different diets.

[Ron Mc]

another thing I don't get.  If people are out running, riding bikes, etc. to be healthy, burn calories, increase their metabolism, why at rest stops do they pump down gummies and energy drinks?  

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 4:11:29 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Why do most folks lump chocolate with sugar? I love chocolate. We make our own with coconut butter, butter, vanilla, ceylon cinnamon and cocoa powder. No sugar required. Deep, dark, rich, ridiculous silky deliciousness. Grin. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Goshen Peter]

Come on Deacon, you know most people don't go and make their own chocolate, if only. at 50 hours a week with kids and all the other crap I am luck to get time to drive and buy a damn chocolate bar, haha. I kid but I think this touches on another issue with any change in eating habits-time and money. Most people who eat poorly have little of both, at least IMO. When you are pressed for time or money you get what you can, which in this county is unhealthy processed food for most people, unfortunately.

--

[Daniel D.]

Fad diets come and go.  I've lost 35 pounds this year, I'm lighter now than I was graduating high school.  Actually started out wanting to lose just ~15 pounds  that I was over my usual weight but just kept on going.  Didn't do anything extreme just tracked my calories in/out and rode more/longer.  Easy stuff like only eating half that massive burrito and saving the other half for another meal.  My cholesterol's always been good and my blood pressure's down.  For most eating more sensibly and exercising works pretty darn well.

[Deacon Patrick]

Agreed, Peter. Hence part of the sin of grain subsidies. But the cost of healthy food is far less than it at first may seem. When we factor in the direct savings in dental costs and chronic health issues for which our family took various medications like allergies, sinus infections, acid reflux, and even dramatic decreases in colds and flues, we made up much of the difference in costs. As for time, it takes time to drive places, get food, wait for it. If people want to eliminate processed food from their diet, they can. The barriers are mostly false.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Oh, and a five minute batch of chocolate lasts me three months and costs a fraction of what a three month supply of any chocolate bar would cost, let alone one with 90% cocoa, little to no sugar, all organic, with butter and coconut oil, soy lecithin free, and I don't know what all else even the "good" bars have in them.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Goshen Peter]

I agree, but you are talking about long term savings over short term costs, for a lot of people on a fixed income the only options are short term. What this country needs is more access to fresh foods, in that way I miss the city, where you can go buy fruit or veggies from all around the world at anytime really anywhere.

[Robert F. Harrison]

Patrick, 

I take it you are going to leave us with a list of ingredients but no recipe? While I admit I like a bit of experimentation, I'm pretty sure I'd mess it up. So...um...just what is that recipe again?

Aloha,

Bob

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Wu Name: Tha Eurythmic King of Nowhere

[Goshen Peter]

Hear hear, I do love dark chocolate, umm really all chocolate......

[Deacon Patrick]

Och! Right. Sorry lads! Most cruel of me. My wife cooks like I run and ride: by feel. So she doesn't measure and has no written recipe. I asked for her best guess and she said:

1 cup: Cocoa butter/coconut oil/butter/ghee in preferred combo totaling 1 cup melted. Coconut oil/butter/ghee increase the silkiness/softness and melt in your mouth smoothness but lower the melting point. Cocoa butter raises the melting point and increases the "chew." If only coconut oil and/or cocoa butter are used, it can be stored at room temperature quite a long time before getting fuzzy. With butter, refrigerate. 

1 cup: cocoa powder

Spices to taste (optional): vanilla extract, ceylon cinnamon powder, chilli powder, sea salt. A splash of Islay "Water of Life" is amazing!

If sweeter is desired: ground dates or honey or coconut sugar or your preferred sweeter to taste.

Also great with a nut butter added.

Melt the fat on low heat until entirely liquid, but do not heat it. Remove from heat. Immediately stir in cocoa powder till blended and smooth. Add spices and sweeter to taste (we add none). While still warm, use a rubber spatula to spread into a waxed paper covered plate or baking pan. Cool in refrigerator. Cut into chunks, and enjoy!

Brain depending, this will last me two weeks to 3+ months. I'm almost done with my most recent batch, made in the spring.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Cost wise, we know several families of 8 who are paleo who spend $1k a month on food (but they don't do organic or grass fed/wild caught). But their kids are not yet teens. We have a teen and tween and two youngers and our budget is higher than that. We also buy only organic and grass fed/wild forage/wild caught. I eat less than my 11 and 13 year old daughters, by a long shot. Must be payback, because I ate 10,000 calories a day in high school when I had to track it for a few weeks. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[justin...@gmail.com]

THERE IS ONE GROK. KNEEL BEFORE GROK!

I guess squat before Grok would make more sense.

Anyways.

-J

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/06/2014 08:49 PM, justin...@gmail.com wrote:

THERE IS ONE GROK. KNEEL BEFORE GROK!

I guess squat before Grok would make more sense.

"Sense" has been conspicuous by its absence around here for a long, long time.

Are you now arguing for paleo monotheism?

[Ron Mc]

now wait a minute here - grain is not sin - Joseph saved civilization by tithing the world's grain supply.  Grain is not evil - it is the foundation of all civilization.  Not picking on Grant here, but at some point it's the people writing books who are duping the public more than the triglyceride factories.  I was fat, now I'm not, you should be like me.  No, I'm not like you, I've always been active and healthy.  My grandfather was a grain and pig farmer and he lived to 96.  My grandmother made biscuits and cornbread at every meal (the dogs got the breakfast cornbread, and they lived healthy lives, too).  

[Deacon Patrick]

The grain of today is not the grain of Jesus or Joseph. It has been selectively bread to withstand bugs and blights and climates, which means more grows for the same effort, at the price of anti-nutrients that can wreak havoc on health. It is also interesting to note that based on fossil record dental caries came about with the rise of agriculture and did not exist before.

At least for me, grain is a "fall back food" -- if my choice is eat it or starve, grain is indeed the bread of life.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Ron Mc]

no food can wreak havoc on any person's health.  Only the person can do that by the choices they make.  Fad diets count among bad choices - rank them up there with Jacqueline Suzanne novels, because that is where they belong - they are the fast food of the publishing industry.  

[Patrick Moore]

Now this may well be true; any sources for more information about it?

[Bill Lindsay]

"No food can wreak havoc on any person's health"

That's very well played.  It's like "guns don't kill people, people kill people".  Bad foods don't cause poor health, eating bad foods cause poor health.

Rhetorical yoga, but it's true.  Refined sugar won't cause any health problems, provided you don't consume too much of it.  Peanuts don't kill people with peanut allergies, provided they don't eat them.  Gluten won't wreck a celiac, provided the celiac doesn't eat the gluten.  

[Deacon Patrick]

The simple answer is no, I'd have to search for them to find them again. 

It is intriguing that sprouting, fermenting, and soaking were pretty standard ways of preparing grains for consumption before easily obtainable processed flour. Those processes decrease the amount of anti-nutrients. We tried this with oats at one point, finding old Scottish recipes for soaked/fermented oats that sat out for a week or more. What we learned was it lessened the anti-nutrients, but there was no way to duplicate the fermenting process that farmers allowed to happen BEFORE harvesting the oats, leaving them on the stalk. That would be fascinating to try to see if it makes a difference.

The Weston Price Foundation may be a good place to start looking. http://www.westonaprice.org

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

N+1

Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Friday, November 7, 2014 12:38:05 PM UTC-7, Trenker wrote:

I wonder what the average weight of a Rivendell owner is?

:-)

[Bill]

So if we eliminate agriculture we'll all have perfect teeth and get rid of those pesky "anti-nutrients", whatever they are, as well?

[Ron Mc]

I'm 6'3" and 215 lbs.  My blood pressure today is the same as when I was 19, though I was 15 lbs lighter when I was 19.  

[Deacon Patrick]

On a personal and familial scale, yes. That is precisely what happened. Pre-paleo dental bill per child before they reached five: $4,000. Since paleo? Only the cost of checkups. Some cavities even vanished. Tooth care involves brushing with baking soda, flossing, and swishing mouth with coconut oil. No tooth paste or mouth wash. Beth is fresh and clean? Why? Friendly bacteria. 

 

Bill, in the age of the internet, there is no excuse for ignorance such as "anti-nutrients, whatever they are" so I presume you have no interest in finding out? In case you or others do, however, here is the impeccable yet oddly trusted Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinutrient

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

It's hard to get annoyed at people who discover a way of eating that makes them feel much better in many different ways, so I have no beef against the -- what do you call'ems, those who eschew starch and eat mostly protein and fat. My own take is that this is just one more example of how people thrive on so many different diets. The Inuit, of course, were traditionally notorious for living largely on meat, fat, and fish and, from what I've read, they were normally healthy. OTOH, Orthodox monks, who never eat meat, and eat dairy only on special occasions -- the very strict eat only vegetables, and oil only on non-strict-fast days -- are themselves notororious for living long and healthy lives, free in particular from the chronic ailments (almost wrote aliments) suffered by the old accustomed to what I think should be called the American commercial diet. 

I was amused and annoyed to see that there is even a formal diet, with websites, called the Daniel diet, after Daniel who refused Nebuchadnezzer's rich palace food for legumes and who, with his friends, were healthier after several months on them than the better fed.

[Patrick Moore]

Dinner tonight: I'd like to hear what others have eaten over the last 32 days. "2" because I can't remember beyond that. I:

Thurs night: big bowl of spaghetti with olive oil, salt, black pepper, red pepper; 6 pieces of toast with butter. Bad even by my standards, but I didn't feel like going to the store.

Tonight: big stir fry of onions and Bell and Hatch peppers, to be eaten wrapped in large flour tortillas with non-dairy mayo (nothing against Hellman's, it's what I got at Costco.

Red wine in plenty. Black coffee, tea with cream and sugar.

[Deacon Patrick]

Today's meal (I love you, Patrick, but I'm not going back 32 days. Grin.):

Breakfast: 2 cups homemade bone broth, licorice root chi tea with grass fed cream.

brain snack (for when my brain wants something, but I'm not hungry: dark chocolate (see above post) with chili pepper, coffee. Oddly, flavonoids seem to satisfy brain cravings when I've been "bran slammed." 

Lunch: huge (pie pan filled with various dark greens) salad with cheddar cheese and cream dressing and cod fish taco-free taco with home fermented salsa.

Dinner: one egg with cheddar cheese and chili pepper.

This is quite typical, and my morning and evening meal rarely changes.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Eric Norris]

Hmmmm. I will have to ask my dentist next time I see her if cavities can, in fact, “vanish.” That would be wonderful.

—Eric

On Nov 7, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:

Some cavities even vanished. 

[Bill]

My dentist made some cavities disappear by installing crowns.

[Grant Petersen]

Many of the issues brought up here are addressed (I address them) in the book. Not to say that my addressing them carves them into even limestone, but the book can speak for itself and me, and I'd hate for somebody to hear "ketosis" or "diabetes" and assume that I'm wacky on either of those.
I think entres No. 82-83-84 make a compelling argument for a nutrient-dense low-carb diet. One of those, summed up, goes like this: We have a digestive system nearly identical to the digestive system of every carnivore. It's a simple, one-stomach chamber system (monogastric). It lacks the enzymes and complexity needed to digest cellulose, the structural component of plants---which isn't to say we don't digest any of them, but we cannot digest cellulose without the enzyme cellulase, and we carnivores make at most just tiny amounts of that.
Herbivores digest cellulose by fermenting it. In a ruminant (cow, deer), the first stomach chamber is the biggest, and its purpose is fermenting the roughage, breaking it down. Then it gets belched up and chewed again as a cud, mixed with more enzymes ...then is swallowed and sent through more machinery that we don't have, and after a long trip thru the large intestine, additional digestion by fermentation takes place in the cecum.
Apes have a cecum, because they eat roughage and need it.
Our appendix is a devolved/atrophied cecum. It's about as big around as a ball point pen or a fat pencil, and is two to six inches long, typically, and its chamber is narrow...and food can get in there, but sometimes doesn't get out, and then we get appendicitis or something else.
The point is, over the nearly 3 million years of evolution, from ape to Homo whatever, a diet largely of heinous meat has allowed our digestive system to reconfigure to what it is now: Carnivoristic. It's so much like a dog's.

People've been eating plants in large quantities for at most 11,000 years. Middle easterners have the longest exposure to carbs, and as a defense, they've evolved saliva with a higher concentration of amylase in it, which predigests the starch before it triggers a huge glucose response. But carbs (in mass qty) came to Africans and Native Americans and Mexicans and some others much later, and they have not had time to adapt. It's not a white-and-black difference, though---the "high amylase" spit is still no match for the juices an processes an herbivore has to digest roughage.
And even with all that roughage-digesting machinery, the digestion is so incomplete that they have to eat constantly to fuel themselves for even the most lazy lives (in the case of a cow). And they poop constantly, to make room for more food. They're digesting machines, but inefficient ones at that.

A human on a high-fiber/plant-based diet is at a serious disadvantage. We've evolved the ability to communicate, but throw into that mix the influences of marketing and commerce and ego and all that, and it's no wonder we're confused.

My book has no original thoughts, thank goodness. I didn't cogitate on stuff and make sense of it in my head before putting it on paper and declaring it truth. The information is out there and has been out there for decades. The past twenty years or so have taught us a lot more, and now the level of understanding how it works is quite high.

There are ethical arguments on both sides, and I address some of those, too. Maybe all of them. But for me, it comes down to this: People and the animals fed by people are the only animals on earth that eat food that is incompatible with their digestive system. Many, not all, of the problems we have are nearly unique to people, and some of those problems might be related to eating funky food.

In the book I try to simplify things. Since I'm simple - minded, it came natural to me.
At eatbacondontjog.com I show fantastic food fotos of some actual meals. Many contain leaves...even though I don't thoroughly digest them. On that site you'll also see we have an anagram contest going. Scroll down a few posts. Kind of fun.

eatbacondontjog.com

G

[hangtownmatt]

On Friday, November 7, 2014 6:09:30 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

The grain of today is not the grain of Jesus or Joseph. It has been selectively bread to withstand bugs and blights and climates, which means more grows for the same effort, at the price of anti-nutrients that can wreak havoc on health.

And to take this a step further what about Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO)?  Sure, this can help to avoid pesticides, but why should I eat grains that even a bug has the sense to NOT eat?  I am in no way a Paleo (or whatever they call themselves) but this bothers me to no end.

Matt

[hangtownmatt]

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 12:35:19 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Incidentally, remembering the story in Daniel about the captives turning away the rich meats offered by the king and turning out healthier than everyone else on a diet of legumes, I was amused and appalled to see that even this has been turned into a theory and a diet.

 

Appalled?  Why would you be appalled?

Matt

[Garth]

Yes Patrick Moore !
It is all rather silly .   All these "names" for diets . HaH !   

The funny thing about them all, is that once they are defined , they are impossible to follow , as they create a prison within their own rules .

For every theory, there is another to refute it. For every refute, there is a counter . It never ends .

So to I, it's all false . Truth , real Truth to I , is irrefutable , unchangeable and Eternally Good (and I do not mean this as a corporeal perspective only).  And no man-made diet or way is any of those .  All these false ways of eating or fasting are an attempt to Free themselves from self begotten subjective woes of living , and the only true way to do this , is to see clearly the falsity of self begotten woe itself .  That food or conditions are never the matter, but the Spirit who is All , is the only matter as without the Spirit of the man, there is no man .

The irony is , we're All Already Free !  So all these attempts to free ourselves with this and that way of eating and doing all eventually fail because there is no bondage to free oneself from !  

[Ron Mc]

bad science has always made for entertaining reading

[Ron Mc]

what blows my mind is that nobody argues simply for a healthy attitude - don't graze on junk, which is the exact cause of American obesity (it's not an Illuminati plot). Everything is extreme, rather than balanced.  Point at everybody else and call them carb-mongers.  The Only Answer is Death to All Carbs - bollocks.  You got a tough row to hoe with the fiber is bad argument, especially with all my MD friends who daily eat their cereal religiously and blame it for their good health.  
My grilled salmon caesar was great last night.   

I also have the world's simplest relleno recipe - a can of lump crabmeat (not from China), skin two sticks of boudin, blend with grated white cheese, stuff in a pepper and roast (oven or sidebox smoker).  

[Ron Mc]

BTW, if you get rid of mega-food-industrial conspiracies, then no one is responsible for your state of health other than yourself.  

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Rellenos Ron:

 

My favorite pic of the morning – that looks tasty!

 

Tom

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[Patrick Moore]

This is what I don't see. Corn came to North America even later than to middle America, yet the better part of two whole continents built flourishing civilizations on corn and a couple of other vegetables (those were the dietary basis, though of course they ate other things. Much of the rest of SA built theirs on potatoes. And per the "1491" theorists, who give good evidence, these cultures were not far behind Europe in just their material sophistication and population numbers.

When I say "built on corn" I mean just that. Corn was for the Hopi (I know this second hand, since my brother is close to the Hopi) what an icon is to the Orthodox, or perhaps even what icons and the Eucharist are to the Orthodox.

You don't do that if your diet is making you chronically sick for hundreds of years.

There are 24 Federally recognized tribes in NM; all of these (the Navajo by trade) ate diets largely composed of maize. 

On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 8:06 PM, Grant Petersen <eatbaco...@gmail.com> wrote: But carbs (in mass qty) came to Africans and Native Americans and Mexicans and some others much later, and they have not had time to adapt.

[Patrick Moore]

Because such things show ideological fervor and not scientific dispassion.

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[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing so.”

                                                                                    -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money. 

                                                                               -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying

[justin...@gmail.com]

1491 was an amazing read.

-J

[Aaron Young]

I'm not a nutritionist, but I do practice medicine if that counts for anything.

In medicine when there is a disease that has many different possible treatments it indicates we really don't have a good treatment yet, or we don't understand the disease very well yet. I think this is why there are so many conflicting thoughts on the "best" diet, and suggests that nutrition is really complicated and we don't have a full understanding of it yet. At least not in a way that we can recommend one diet for all people on one hand, or specific, individualized diets on the other hand. If we have figured out nutrition, then we would know it and there would be much less controversy.

I don't know, but my guess is the answer lies in our individual genetics, which can vary widely, so a one-size-fits-all approach will probably never work. Perhaps in the future when we really figure out nutrition we will be able to suggest a diet based on an individual's genome. Certainly there is nothing wrong with trying different dietary approaches in the meantime.

Till then at least there is something we can all agree on: "Just Ride", right? :)

Aaron "Please don't ever call me Dr. unless it's Dr. Squirrel" Young
The Dalles, OR

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 06:45 Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Because such things show ideological fervor and not scientific dispassion.

On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:25 PM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 12:35:19 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Incidentally, remembering the story in Daniel about the captives turning away the rich meats offered by the king and turning out healthier than everyone else on a diet of legumes, I was amused and appalled to see that even this has been turned into a theory and a diet.

 

Appalled?  Why would you be appalled?

Matt

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[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing so.”

                                                                                    -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money. 

                                                                               -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying

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[LeahFoy]

I, for one, am grateful Eat Bacon Don't Jog has been written. I happen to be one of those folks who simply cannot handle a high-carb diet. I come from a family with rampant diabetes - both types - and though I'm only 33 and NOT overweight, my lab results revealed prediabetes last month. Clearly, carbs affect me. The dr was concerned with the high cholesterol, (I have really high HDL AND elevated LDL) and started lecturing about fatty foods. New, high-quality research talks about high cholesterol as a direct result of high blood glucose - not fatty foods. I pointed that out, but he didn't seem to want to hear about THAT. He didn't even care about my on-the-edge A1C! I told him I would NOT be put on a statin and that I'm making some changes and he can re-evaluate in 3 months. I reject candy/baked goods/ sugar outright now, and I stick with high-fat foods instead. I don't worry about salt. I'm taking coconut oil in my coffee or out of the jar, and if I do decide to incorporate a small amount of rice or potato in a meal, I swallow 2 T diluted unfiltered, organic apple cider vinegar, which has a Metforamin-type effect on blood glucose. Ideally, I'd never consume these foods, but for now, I'm limiting them and using the cider vinegar. If that has to change in the future, I'm sure I'll get there. For now, all these other changes are about what I can handle.

My understanding of the corn issue is that corn today is not what it was "back then." Maybe that is an explanation for how early American cultures we able to sustain themselves on a high-corn diet. I don't know. Also, I do know that Egypt was one of the first, if not THE first civilization with a high-carb/grain diet and scientists have observed massive heart and vessel disease in them. Which, as we now know, high carbs = heart disease as well.

[Ron Mc]

Leah, please don't be offended, but you started off with "high-carb diet".  I don't think high-anything diet can be good for anybody.  The only high thing that is good for any of us is high activity.  Like going for a bike ride.  I just got home from 30 miles and finished with that tough climb back into my neighborhood.  

[LeahFoy]

Ron, I'm not offended. High carb diet is what we have in the USofA and that is what I'm referring to. Doctors have been saying the high-carb diet is great - been saying it for decades, and we see that it is not. Low-fat, lots of grains, low-fat pasta and rice, it's all been touted as superior to saturated fat. I hold a bachelor's of science in nursing, and am a registered nurse and that is very much what was pushed. (I've since hung up my stethescope in favor of raising kiddos, but I doubt this has drastically changed.)

[Ron Mc]

ok - thanks

[hangtownmatt]

There is plenty of science to back up the Daniel Diet.  I think you take issue because a group of people got their diet's name and inspiration from the Bible.  I doubt you are appalled by the names of diets derived from non-Christian entities  (ex. Paleo).  What if they got their name and inspiration from the Navajo Indians? Would you be appalled?  I seriously doubt it.

Matt

[Eric Norris]

There are many plants that have naturally developed toxins so that insects won’t eat them. A plant “that even a bug has the sense not to eat” isn’t necessarily bad. 

—Eric “Not Genetically Modified” N

P.S. Many insects have themselves developed toxins that make them unpalatable to other insects. Monarch butterfly, for example. 

[Philip Williamson]

Humans, like bears, pigs, and rats, are omnivores.
"A true carnivore cannot move its jaw from side to side to grind its food."
There are monogastric herbivores, like horses and rabbits. Using cows' guts to prove humans must be carnivores is rhetoric, not science.
http://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BIO309-OC-3.8.1-Comparison-of-Digestive-Systems-FINAL.pdf

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Kendallspower]

I have worked with a bear trainer (on set) that brought a half grizzly half brown bear that refused to eat meat. He told me that he has encountered one other that was vegetarian.

There are no absolutes...