Rims: Mavic Crosstrail or TAG FRX5 ?

[Jerome Daoust]

There has been some previous discussion...

From Bob:
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/87003d70ad4617ac
Tag Wheels!! If you are serious about using the bike off road,
use
a standard wheel set using good quality spkes, hubs and rims. Reasons
for not using them are as follows as far as my experience with the
wheels goes:
They are heavier than traditional wheels which means you loose a lot
of turning accuracy and control. The bike feels very "groggy" when
turning into a corner and if you are riding accross uneven terrain,
they tend to lead you in the direction they want to go in. The reason
for this is that they are much more flexible than traditional wheels.
this is great for having a nice smooth ride, but naff if you actually
want to ride hard. because the wheels are actually heavier than
traditional wheels it means you loose performance both under
acceleration and braking alike. It also slows the response of the
suspension too as you are making more unsprung wieght! I had an Opti
bike set up brand new with the 5spokes and wasn't thrilled about it.
They look great don't get me wrong, but personally that's all they
offer. I can't begin to imagine how they would ride if used on a non
powered bike, but all I can see is that it would be a hinderance!
Also
on the pair that I road, the finish was terrible. Both wheels were so
out of shape I thought they were eggs, and riding along on a smooth
stretch of raod was bumpier than taking them across a gravel track.
Again after riding the bike with the tags on we swapped them for the
Mavic wheel set under my reccomendation and the perfarmance was
noticably increased much to the owners surprise, disbelief and
happiness!!
I'm sure than not all of these wheels are finished as badly as the
ones I used, but I would deffinatley say get a test ride before you
part with any cash (compare performance between normal wheels and
tags
ON THE SAME BIKE so you have a direct comparison). Also as a last
thought, I don't know how likely it is for these wheels to shatter
and
or brake in general, but if they brake I'm know it'll be a lot more
catastrofic than braking a spoke, and much more permanent. Another
though that just cropped up, WARRANTY! Are the wheels coverd for e-
bike use??
http://www.tagwheels.com/warranty.aspx
Sorry to be so negative about them, but after using them it left a
very sour taste in my mouth considering how much you have to pay for
them!

From Jamie:
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/2c58b7376928da15
Be serious about breaking them. If they break then you probably died
during the incident. I can destroy a professionally hand built spoked
wheel of any make, spoke, whatever in 1 hr of up and down stair
riding
and my TAG wheels have never let me down. I have ridden down 2 miles
of river bed in Greagle Ca on my Opti at 20+ mph plus numerous oh
fuck
rocky trails there, double flated thick downhill tubes at 35 psi,
ridden home on rear flats with 5 miles of rocks and nothing has
damaged them. For any one who will ride there Opti off road to its
true capacity and you will never experience the true capacity with
out
them, the TAGs are the only answer. Sorry to here about out of round
unit but mine are perfect. I am not sponsered by anyone but my 28 yrs
of mountain biking experience. Not to be rude but if they feel more
flexable lateraly than spoke wheels, they are barely, but to be
honest
you are not riding correctly if you feel that, follow the carve
energy
line, try not to turn, have fun. I also know of people doing Whistler
flating at the top and still doing all the 20+ ft drops all of them
all the way down, no damage. Regular wheel trash can, TAG wheel new
tube and ride.


I looked into the weight of each set and found...

Mavic Crosstrail
http://www.mavic.com/mtb/products/crosstrail.995210.1.aspx
weight: 1750 g per pair (3.855 lb)
front wheel: 795 g (1.751 lb)
rear wheel: 955 g (2.104 lb)

TAG FRX5
Prive premium over Mavic Crosstrail: + 525 $US
http://www.tagwheels.com/frx5.aspx
Weight per wheel (without hub) 1597 g (3.518 lb)
Weight for a pair: 3194 g (7.035 lb)

So the TAG wheel set (2 wheels) would weigh more by...
1444 g (3.181 lb)
or on average per wheel...
722 g (1.590 lb)

[cakey]

In fairness I agree with Jamie . Tags are the way to go off road the
extra speed is a wheel killer . The trueness is my only concern . But
I have emailed tag and the md said if they are not true send them back
and we will replace them. Cannot say fairer than that ....

> Mavic Crosstrailhttp://www.mavic.com/mtb/products/crosstrail.995210.1.aspx

> weight: 1750 g per pair (3.855 lb)
> front wheel: 795 g (1.751 lb)
> rear wheel: 955 g (2.104 lb)
>
> TAG FRX5

> Prive premium over Mavic Crosstrail: + 525 $UShttp://www.tagwheels.com/frx5.aspx

[Jerome Daoust]

Bob adds...
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/e87055115177c455

That sounds fare enough guys! Just stating the FACTS as I know them
so far!


Again this is only my PERSONAL opinion and experience of what I've
had the chance to work with. I was stating the effects the wheels
have
on the bike. However, I'm a true supporter of a proper spoked wheel,
and use them on my trials bike where i give them an absulute beating
every time I go out on my bike. Just to let you know how good a
proper
build can be, I use 36 hole rims and hubs, and DT-Swiss DB spokes. On
my rear wheel which takes all the flack I can put it through, there
are only 12 spoke that actually cross each other, all the rest are
radial, and it has not needed to be trued in the 6 mounths that Ive
used it in! It's been used for 12ft straight drop offs, gap juumps to
hand rails, drop offs to hand rails, just stacking and falling off in
rediculous places and all it wants is more abuse!!


http://www.dsbiketrials.co.uk/gallary.html This is how I roll!! I
can ride a bike!! (pics are a few years old now though! Moved on to
bigger and better stuff!!)


I build a lot of wheels, mainly for e-bikers at the moment, but have
built wheels that have been taken to places of extreme off-raoding
and
they have been the only parts of a bike that survived from a 100ft
drop off the side of a mountain!!! I've seen people's "profesionally
hand built" wheels that were absolute crap, and would of lasted
better
if it were a machine built wheel!! To put it in perspective from my
eyes; of all the wheels I've EVER built (going on for 8 years, and
many hundreds!!), I only know of one person who snapped a spoke, and
that was someone who I recomended SHOULDN'T have the wheel built in
the first place and decided to ignor my advice, and one person who
destroyed a wheel by landing 5ft short of a 30ft gap jump but was
still able to ride the bike after the crash. He did more damage to
himself than my wheels! I also put it to you, that if you can indeed
"destroy" a pro wheel build (no matter how well built), then YOU
don't
know how to ride a bike or don't care enough to look after it!!! And
you SHOULD be able to feel what's going on with your equipment and be
able to feel the difference at all times otherwise your repair bills
must be huge!!! Look, sorry to be rude, but I've seen it all as far
as
how and why things brake on bikes, and when you amplify the speed,
wieght of bike, terrain you wouldn't normally be riding on, and the
frequency you do it all at and the SKILL of the rider (or lack there
of), there are a lot more imaginative ways of things letting go when
you least expect it. This happens even faster if the rider doesn't or
can't feel whats going on, or is fighting, with the equipment. Most
brakeages happen through people's (for lack of a better word),
ignorance.


Maybe these TAGs use a much better quality composite than I gave them
credit for, but I have seen what happens to composite wheels when
they
do go, and the thought of someone hurtling down a mountain and having
it happen to them is just a bit scarey for me!! I look forward to the
updates about the wheels as I'm open to new suggestions about new
technologies when it comes to stuff like this so I can offer the
right
advice to people who ask, but hey the door swings both ways. Please
be
aware that I'm not trying to sell you anything and not trying to ruin
a products reputation if that's how it seems, but just trying to put
across the pros and cons of any given system against it's intended
useage. Likewise I wouldn't for a second even entertain the idea of
using one of my wheels with only 12 crossing spokes for Opti's, as
again, it doesn't offer the right performance for that application.
Although, if anyone would like to take the challenge of braking one
of
my wheel sets to compare against the TAGs, bring it on I'm game!! :-)


PS. Please don't ride on tyres with no air in them, it WILL screw
your
rims/wheels and tyres. School boy error!!! As is getting the flat in
the first place if it was a pinch flat?? Must look where you are
going
and avoid the sharp bits. This would be classed as missuse and or
negligence AND deffinately abuse! Here is the quote from the TAG
warranty!


"This warranty DOES NOT cover the normal wear and wearing of parts
and
does not apply to damage due directly or indirectly to misuse, abuse,
negligence, improper assembly or assembly with incompatible products,
accidents, crashes, repairs, alterations or modifications outside our
facilities, a lack of maintenance, and or delivery and transport
damage."


Sorry so long again, but VERY passionate about biking and I know
wheels inside and out!!


:-)

[cakey]

Interesting what you could offer me in wheel build and what the price
would be . Always willing to try a new wheel .

On Nov 28, 5:44 pm, Jerome Daoust <EyesToThe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob adds...http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/e87055115177c455

[Jerome Daoust]

Bob adds:
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/msg/e2dd2437be045254

Hi Jerome,

Glad to be offering something to have a gander at! Saw the thread
earlier!
Basically the origanal question was about which wheels to use, and
obviously the guys at Opti. reccomend the TAGs both aftermarket and
on
the OE products they supply with the bikes. Nothing wrong with that
at
all, but people were asking what the BEST wheels were to use!!
My simple answere is that the tags aren't that good purley because
they weigh nearly 2kg each!! Basic wheel theology is that to get the
best out of whatever it is you ride, you need light wheels so you can
get the best performance both in acceleration and braking, and being
able to turn quicker and get more controlable cornering. I mean
Motorbike companies must spend thousand if not millions on developing
the lightest AND stiffest wheels they can so on thier race bikes so
they get the edge even with the same HP. It makes a huge difference.
It's the difference between first and second and they will do
anything
to make it better!


Now bareing in mind these Tags weight twice as much as the crossmax
wheels they also supply, it will affect the performance even more.
Now
at the same time I have made practical comparisons between both
wheelsets on Richard Papa's bike. When he got his, the Tags were
nowhere near round or straite causing uncontrollable wobbles and
vibrations and the cornering was terrible! Under my reccomendation, I
suggested swapping for the Mavics and he was blown away by the
difference it made! Better acceleration and braking not to mension
that you could stear the thing on a penny!!
The second thing about having a lighter wheel is unsprung weight when
it comes to suspension. The lighter a wheel, the quicker the
suspension can react giving better traction and stability on the road
or off depending on your prefferences and save ware and tare on any
number of other connected components.


Just to put the weight issue in the extreme, the lightest weight
front
wheel I'v ever made weighed in at just over 3/4 lb for a non disc
wheel (V-brake specific) and is still riding today after 5/6 years of
use!!! You can get very reliable spoked wheels that last a lifetime
of abuse.
On the flex front, if you start using a tyre that's too fat for the
frame and have flexible wheels, you are going to start braking frames
as the tyre will take away the metal before it even hints at waring
it'self down!! Beleive me it happens and my friend dissagreed and
snapped a £500 trials frame to his surprise. PLus flex will steer you
where it wants to go rather than where you WANT to go!! Its all about
control and response!


I could talk about wheels, and all the different variables all day.
Bottom line, the tags WILL work fine, but if you want the best from
your machine I know you can do better!!


Have a good weekend guys!

[Jerome Daoust]

> Bob wrote
> ... the guys at Opti. recomend the TAGs both aftermarket and

> on the OE products they supply with the bikes.

That was not my experience. Those I spoke with at headquarters steered
me away from the TAGs, stating exactly what you said (benefits of
reduced unsprung weight).

Other very minor arguments against the TAGs that have not been stated
yet:
- More vulnerable to crosswinds.
- Makes your bike look more like a motorcycle which may raise unwanted
attention on some policed bike paths.

As I see it: Unless you will be applying extreme abuse on your
wheelset, one should avoid the heavier TAG rims.
But why do they have to look so damn sexy good?

[ElectricDirt]

Bob nothing but respect to your skills. Funny thing after Jim Turner
watched me do some casual stair riding on my 600 he let me ride one of
the new 800Li bikes with crossmax wheel set under the promise to stay
off the stairs. It was slightly quicker no faster, did not steer any
better, in fact for me it was less stable but I am use to my bikes
gyro dynamics and can adjust to new bike with time. There are no cross
wind problems with TAGs on a Optibike check my video Optibike Dual Cam
Adventure #1 at 6:45 thru 7:44 min the cross wind that day, notice top
of ridge line is a direct cross wind of 30mph in fact it is always
somewhere between 15 and 40+ mph. Come to think of it I dont see any
steer problems either. Wow that was when I just got the bike, the old
days for me, I did have the first one in California, maybe the west
coast. Really that bike is the original OB1 it was the most expensive
Opti they ever sold when I got it the first one with TAG wheels, I
felt very special to own such a magnificent and unique bike. Well I am
so glad more people ride them to share that feeling you have when you
have one. Jamie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDR-ZPcnRCY&feature=related

[lowco2]

I'll add a few inexperienced thoughts here.
I've owned dozens of bikes. I'm very light (140 lbs) xc racer or road
racer and have always had spoked wheels, and never had to true or
worry about them. I ride hard-tails off road and never broke one.
Never had a problem until I met the beast known as my 800li. This
thing throws torque like nobody's business and I've loosed (not
broken, yet) spokes on those new mavic wheels. I'm seriously
considering the TAG 3-spokes for my type of riding. That's saying
something from a guy like me. I think the 3-spokes will balance the
light look I'm after on my Nevada One bike.
--John

On Nov 28, 2:14 pm, ElectricDirt <liveitproduct...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Bob nothing but respect to your skills. Funny thing after Jim  Turner
> watched me do some casual stair riding on my 600 he let me ride one of
> the new 800Li bikes with crossmax wheel set under the promise to stay
> off the stairs. It was slightly quicker no faster, did not steer any
> better, in fact for me it was less stable but I am use to my bikes
> gyro dynamics and can adjust to new bike with time. There are no cross
> wind problems with TAGs on a Optibike check my video Optibike Dual Cam
> Adventure #1 at 6:45 thru 7:44 min the cross wind that day, notice top
> of ridge line is a direct cross wind of 30mph in fact it is always
> somewhere between 15 and 40+ mph. Come to think of it I dont see any
> steer problems either. Wow that was when I just got the bike, the old
> days for me, I did have the first one in California, maybe the west
> coast. Really that bike is the original OB1 it was the most expensive
> Opti they ever sold when I got it the first one with TAG wheels, I
> felt very special to own such a magnificent and unique bike. Well I am
> so glad more people ride them to share that feeling you have when you

> have one. Jamiehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDR-ZPcnRCY&feature=related

[ElectricDirt]

I weigh 165lbs and broke every frame except my Ellsworth Dare and my
Opti and countless wheels. The worst thing about normal wheels is when
doing 25+mph on rocky section and flatting, tire goes flat way before
it is possible to stop, and then the rim section where the tire bead
is, is ruined, maybe even flat sectioned the rim. This permanently
distorts the rim and a total rebuild= more money no ride bike or
rotate new with broken being rebuilt rim again and again. Well maybe
the TAGs are only for hardcore MB like Cakey and myself maybe not, but
they are the best for a bike with a 800 watt, surge probably 2500 watt
+ creepy amount of torque, 60lb machine that easily will make 35+ with
me on it and climb pure rock, read hard to walk up or down trails
especially with a 42 ring and a lot of practice. If you commute on
street only ride what ever turns you on. For me I can not even think
of going back to spoke wheels ever. It is like getting on a crass
country bike after riding a downhill bike for a year, you will break
that cross country bike in one ride because you have risen to a new
level of bike ability tolerance, been there done that, woops! Oh one
more thing if you really want better stopping performance then get
203mm rotors I boiled the small ones on the first hard ride. Remember
that the Standard Optibike is perfect for John Q Public, and just a
few upgrades away from ready for Off Road Racer X. Jamie

[Bike_On]

E-dirt and Cakey,

You guys are sick with how you treat your bikes. 25mph over
rocks...no thanks.

About the Mavic rims and the torque on the wheel/spokes. On a tip
from another rider, I put PURPLE Loctite on my real wheel threads.
Not BLUE, Not RED, but PURPLE. It will help hold the alignment and
still allow adjustability. RED and BLUE is too strong.

Dan

[lowco2]

I may be old-school, but I was taught to use linseed oil on the spoke
threads. Just added enough stickyness to hold a bit but you can move
them. Maybe purple loctite is just linseed oil with a dye?
--J

> > > > > But why do they have to look so damn sexy good?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jerome Daoust]

Another option: Aerospoke wheels:
http://groups.google.com/group/optibike-owners-group/browse_thread/thread/ccbcfc46e572b104?hl=en#