Tester newsgroups
Chris Ilias
Firefox2 Beta1, it has really been amplified. Testers of nightlies, and
development releases (alphas, betas, RCs) don't really have an obvious
newsgroup, where they can get together to:
- confirm/triage bugs
- discuss recent code changes
- provide peer support for those changes
Such newsgroups would be analogous to the "Build" forums on
MozillaZine[2][3][4]. It was suggested that the mozilla.dev.apps.*
groups be used, but Mike Conner wants mozilla.dev.apps.firefox to be for
design discussion and usability issues, and bugzilla used for confirmed
bug reports[5].
While I agree that b.m.o should be the ultimate place for bugs, the
builds forums have proven to be a very useful tool. Testers not familiar
with bugzilla's interface can contribute to testing, start learning
about the code (branching, structure), and start learning how to use
bugzilla. More popular bugs are made known to more testers, resulting in
less duplicates. Testers are more aware of recent significant changes
that may be the cause of new bugs.
From a user support point of view, such forums act like a preview for
expected FAQs that may occur with a new release. By knowing what
questions users of a new release may have, we can have the answers
prepared in advance.
Testers are starting to use the Mozilla newsgroups for such discussion,
and there's no obvious place for them to post. If not
mozilla.dev.apps.*, then where? mozilla.dev.quality? The user support
groups? If there are no appropriate groups, should they be created?
[1]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.mozilla-org/browse_thread/thread/6611da202b1c398a>
[2]<http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=23>
[3]<http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=29>
[4]<http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=6>
[5]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.firefox/msg/2d972c7684d72ded>
--
Chris Ilias
mozilla.test.multimedia moderator
Mozilla links <http://ilias.ca>
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Chris Ilias
> This issue has been brought up before[1], but with the recent release of
> Firefox2 Beta1, it has really been amplified. Testers of nightlies, and
> development releases (alphas, betas, RCs) don't really have an obvious
> newsgroup, where they can get together to:
> - confirm/triage bugs
> - discuss recent code changes
> - provide peer support for those changes
Whoops. I accidentally set the reply-to to the dev-quality list, rather
than dev-mozilla-org. :-[ Follow-ups should go to dev-mozilla-org.
gwtc
> _Chris Ilias_ spoke thusly on 01/08/2006 4:37 PM:
>> This issue has been brought up before[1], but with the recent release of
>> Firefox2 Beta1, it has really been amplified. Testers of nightlies, and
>> development releases (alphas, betas, RCs) don't really have an obvious
>> newsgroup, where they can get together to:
>> - confirm/triage bugs
>> - discuss recent code changes
>> - provide peer support for those changes
>
> Whoops. I accidentally set the reply-to to the dev-quality list, rather
> than dev-mozilla-org. :-[ Follow-ups should go to dev-mozilla-org.
FF 2.0b1, and they think its the latest *final release*, when in
reality its just a testing program. They don't know any better. So,
maybe the bonecho, alphas, betas, and RCs should be placed in another
directory, like Testing, rather than the Release directory.
--
Maxims for the Internet Age: In Gates we trust.
Andrew Schultz
> Such newsgroups would be analogous to the "Build" forums on
> MozillaZine[2][3][4]. It was suggested that the mozilla.dev.apps.*
> groups be used, but Mike Conner wants mozilla.dev.apps.firefox to be for
> design discussion and usability issues, and bugzilla used for confirmed
> bug reports[5].
For SeaMonkey that sort of conversation does go on in
mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey (which is welcome), but we have less traffic
(for both developer discussions and tester discussions). #seamonkey on
moznet is similar, with both types of discussions.
--
Andrew Schultz
aj...@buffalo.edu
http://www.sens.buffalo.edu/~ajs42/
Jay Patel
work. If people are ok with that, I welcome all testers to start
discussing their experience/testing with the alphas, betas, and RC1
here.
If another group is preferred, I suggest mozilla.dev.beta or
mozilla.dev.quality.beta (if we can have such a group, there are
probably other "sub" groups that we can have under
mozilla.dev.quality).
- Jay
Dave Liebreich
> Firefox2 Beta1, it has really been amplified. Testers of nightlies, and
> development releases (alphas, betas, RCs) don't really have an obvious
> newsgroup, where they can get together to:
> - confirm/triage bugs
> - discuss recent code changes
> - provide peer support for those changes
I'm not sure the current charter of mozilla.dev.quality includes the
discussions of the second and third items in that list. I also suspect
that developers working on automated test frameworks would be put off
from discussing such efforts here if the volume of non-technical posts
increased.
So I ask:
1) Why do we need a newsgroup? Can't we just point folks to the forums?
2) I read mconnor's post, and I don't infer that he wants to limit
mozilla.dev.apps.firefox just to design and usability feedback. He does
direct that particular poster to the forums.
So I vote for keeping such discussion and support in the mozillazine
build forums.
--
Dave Liebreich
Test Architect, Mozilla Corporation
Melchert Fruitema
>> This issue has been brought up before[1], but with the recent release of
>> Firefox2 Beta1, it has really been amplified. Testers of nightlies, and
>> development releases (alphas, betas, RCs) don't really have an obvious
>> newsgroup, where they can get together to:
>> - confirm/triage bugs
>> - discuss recent code changes
>> - provide peer support for those changes
> I'm not sure the current charter of mozilla.dev.quality includes the
> discussions of the second and third items in that list. I also
> suspect that developers working on automated test frameworks would be
> put off from discussing such efforts here if the volume of
> non-technical posts increased.
>
> So I ask:
>
> 1) Why do we need a newsgroup? Can't we just point folks to the forums?
Anyway, Forums are not equivalent to Newsgroups.
> 2) I read mconnor's post, and I don't infer that he wants to limit
> mozilla.dev.apps.firefox just to design and usability feedback. He
> does direct that particular poster to the forums.
could find is a question raised by Chris Ilias about where to direct
testers to discuss possible bugs.... Which was somewhat misunderstood by
Mike, I think.
<x>
--
Kind regards,
Melchert
MacOS 10.3.9/Firefox 1.5/Thunderbird 1.5
Andrew Schultz
>> This issue has been brought up before[1], but with the recent release of
>> Firefox2 Beta1, it has really been amplified. Testers of nightlies, and
>> development releases (alphas, betas, RCs) don't really have an obvious
>> newsgroup, where they can get together to:
>> - confirm/triage bugs
>> - discuss recent code changes
>> - provide peer support for those changes
>
>
> I'm not sure the current charter of mozilla.dev.quality includes the
> discussions of the second and third items in that list. I also suspect
> that developers working on automated test frameworks would be put off
> from discussing such efforts here if the volume of non-technical posts
> increased.
It seems reasonable that there isn't a single newsgroup that's
appropriate for all of the things Chris mentioned and for all apps.
There are a lot of newsgroups and I'd guess most people that read them
read more than one. Discussing recent code changes is probably
something that is more appropriate for the m.d.apps. newsgroups, or
perhaps a more relevant one for Gecko changes. I'm not really sure what
"peer support" is (discussing workarounds for serious regressions?), so
it's hard to say where it would fit best.
Chris Ilias
> I'm not really sure what
> "peer support" is (discussing workarounds for serious regressions?), so
> it's hard to say where it would fit best.
Peer support for recent code changes would be something like a tester
not liking the close tab button being moved to each tab, and wonders if
there's a way to reverse it.
Andrew Schultz
> Peer support for recent code changes would be something like a tester
> not liking the close tab button being moved to each tab, and wonders if
> there's a way to reverse it.
OK. That sort of thing might be more appropriate for the
mozilla.support. newsgroups, in part because there could be a lot of
discussion (especially if it gets into advocacy) that developers won't
be interested in. Trunk testers might get away with posting to the
developer newsgroups, especially for bug workarounds.
--
Andrew Schultz
ajsc...@verizon.net
http://www.sens.buffalo.edu/~ajs42/
Chris Ilias
> It seems reasonable that there isn't a single newsgroup that's
> appropriate for all of the things Chris mentioned and for all apps.
> There are a lot of newsgroups and I'd guess most people that read them
> read more than one. Discussing recent code changes is probably
> something that is more appropriate for the m.d.apps. newsgroups, or
> it's hard to say where it would fit best.
> OK. That sort of thing might be more appropriate for the
> mozilla.support. newsgroups, in part because there could be a lot of
> discussion (especially if it gets into advocacy) that developers won't
> be interested in. Trunk testers might get away with posting to the
> developer newsgroups, especially for bug workarounds.
That looks good to me. Instead of having a place for testers to go,
where the post belongs depends on the nature of the content.
Bug triaging: mozilla.dev.quality
Opinions regarding code changes: mozilla.dev.apps.*
Support for recent changes: mozilla.support.*
There's a bit of a grey area, when someone posts about a problem they're
having, and doesn't specify if he/she is looking for confirmation or
just looking for help; but we'll just ask. :-)
Gervase Markham
> I think mozilla.dev.quality is probably the best place for this type of
> work. If people are ok with that, I welcome all testers to start
> discussing their experience/testing with the alphas, betas, and RC1
> here.
I agree. The quality newsgroup is for whatever the QA community wants to
or needs to discuss. If volume gets so great that people are put off
from reading the group, then we should analyse the traffic at that time
and look for a good way to split the group into more manageable chunks.
Gerv
JoeS
server load problems http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=449585
I've used the forums instead of newsgroups for Thunderbird nightly issues because basically it was
the only place to see "realtime" reaction to conditions on the trunk with input from the dev side.
JoeS
Justin Wood (Callek)
perhaps you were looking more for the "realtime" aspects of IRC?
~Justin Wood (Callek)
AC
> Jay Patel wrote:
>> I think mozilla.dev.quality is probably the best place for this type of
>> work.
>
> or needs to discuss. If volume gets so great that people are put off
> from reading the group, then we should analyse the traffic at that time
> and look for a good way to split the group into more manageable chunks.
Disagree. Please keep the test framework development newsgroup separate
from the many app-specific triage discussions.
* People in many projects may be interested in following the development
of test frameworks, but not in following all the application-specific
triage discussions, especially for products they are not working on.
Since there is enough discussion to threaten disrupting the
mozilla.dev.app.firefox, mozilla.dev.app.thunderbird, etc. newsgroups,
then it would also disrupt the mozilla.dev.quality newsgroup.
* Consider the difference between mozilla.dev.i18n and mozilla.dev.l10n:
mozilla.dev.i18n discussions are by framework developers making it
possible to localize to any/all locales, while mozilla.dev.l10n
discussions are for localizers carrying out localizations and
notifications of string changes.
The mozilla.dev.quality discussion is more like i18n: developers of
frameworks making it possible to create and track repeatable tests; the
proposed additional traffic would be like more like l10n: testers
focusing on triaging bugs (and working around changes) they find in a
particular app, both via formal tests and via normal use.
Jay Patel wrote:
> If another group is preferred, I suggest mozilla.dev.beta or
> mozilla.dev.quality.beta
Unfortunately 'beta' doesn't sound like it covers the alpha builds.
Too bad the name mozilla.dev.builds is already taken; it would cover
nightlies and alphas as well as betas, and would match better to the
mozillazine forum names.
Maybe mozilla.dev.buildtesting ...?
Or mozilla.dev.bugtriage... ?
Chris Ilias
Bringing back this discussion, because it has become an issue in
mozilla.support.firefox.
Since this thread finished, I have allowed nightly, alpha, and beta
users to use the support newsgroups for support. Lately, there have been
a lot of questions from Firefox 3 users, and some subscribers have been
complaining about it.
I still think having a separate newsgroup, equivalent to the Firefox
builds forum on Mozillazine would be a good thing; however I understand
that it is still on-topic in the support newsgroup.
Amidst the discussion in mozilla.support.firefox, the idea came up for a
mozilla.support.firefox.prerelease newsgroup. I think that would be a
great solution to the above issue. What do you all think?
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
Justin Wood (Callek)
My only concern is people might find themselves posting to .prerelease
in regards to security update RCs, where the issue is more likely to be
one that would affect any stable version by the same release number.
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Chris Ilias
> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> Amidst the discussion in mozilla.support.firefox, the idea came up for
>> a mozilla.support.firefox.prerelease newsgroup. I think that would be
>> a great solution to the above issue. What do you all think?
>
> My only concern is people might find themselves posting to .prerelease
> in regards to security update RCs, where the issue is more likely to be
> one that would affect any stable version by the same release number.
I think if person is using an RC of security update, the prerelease /is/
the proper place for their support question.
Justin Wood (Callek)
> On 4/8/08 11:13 PM, _Justin Wood (Callek)_ spoke thusly:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>
>>> Amidst the discussion in mozilla.support.firefox, the idea came up
>>> for a mozilla.support.firefox.prerelease newsgroup. I think that
>>> would be a great solution to the above issue. What do you all think?
>>
>> My only concern is people might find themselves posting to .prerelease
>> in regards to security update RCs, where the issue is more likely to
>> be one that would affect any stable version by the same release number.
>
> I think if person is using an RC of security update, the prerelease /is/
> the proper place for their support question.
>
I would argue only if the issue is likely specific to the prerelease
rather than the official release, and in theory the "security only"
releases wouldn't need their own support-branch here. SUMO itself
(forums too) wouldn't diverge for it.
Unless you plan to fork and/or add an extra forum for most of the
volunteer people (once FF3 is out and they would then choose to help
those who ask regular questions about FF3.0.1rc)
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
»Q«
Right now, so few people test those security update candidates that
it's not causing significant traffic in any group. If it ever starts
generating real traffic, I think it would have to be up to the OP to
decide whether it's an rc-specific question or if it's more general.
Al Billings
> Amidst the discussion in mozilla.support.firefox, the idea came up for a
> mozilla.support.firefox.prerelease newsgroup. I think that would be a
> great solution to the above issue. What do you all think?
I think this would be a very good idea. I've been looking for a better
place to funnel discussions of the release candidate builds (which go
into the "beta" channel before final release) for Firefox 2.x and will
need th same for 3.x later.
Al Billings
QA Lead for Security Releases
Justin Wood (Callek)
I suppose I could live with that.
My concern is that I just suspect actual people who are able/willing to
help from an alpha/beta/nightly support channel (such as this seems to
be) will be scarce for a good while after Firefox 3 ships.
And those who do notice they have an "rc" might post to the prerelease
list thinking it only belongs there, when it would be a general FF3
support question.
It is not a blocking concern in my mind, just one I hope "we" can watch
out for and keep ahead of.
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)