Re: How do I link a single business contact to multiple accounts?
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have monitored
this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single
business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More to
the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more surprising is
that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final words in
your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who
encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This
apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design and re-
design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking
restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have commented
about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly
demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue to
have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this
linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as well.
You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business contact
record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is
something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work around
for.
This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are
numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for many-
to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a
misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any
committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a greater
incentive to do so.
-THP
MrJodie wrote:
>I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's
>making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? The
>person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes
>sense, right?
--
Message posted via OfficeKB.com
http://www.officekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/outlook-bcm/200611/1
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
There is also no ability with BCM to link one business contact record
directly to another business contact record like you can between regular
Outlook contact records. You also cannot directly link 1 BCM account record
to another account record nor can you create any type of sub-account
structure among any account records. You will have to move up into the more
complicated and expensive MS CRM application to do any of this eventhough
most smaller business users would easily benefit from such features. The
ease of navigation alone among linked items would make this worthwhile.
The great marketing myth that MS initially has tried to perpetuate is that
the "size" of one's business somehow dictated the targeted intention of BCM's
intended functionality. This began with a very limited notion that "most"
small business user needs were very rigid and definable in this regard.
There seems to be an apologist mindset for BCM that remains ever since this
limited design perspective began.
This apparent disconnect continues to amaze me and it really annoys some
folks here when I consistently sound off about what I believe to be a very
correctable design problem.
-THP
MrJodie
You're not going to get an argument here. I may not know BCM, because I've
just started using it at a new job, but I do know software, including several
mid-large scale CRM programs. The last company that I worked for developed
it's own CRM using the programmer pool they had in place (3 people) using an
MS SQL back-end with a proprietary GUI over the top. It worked better than
this fully integrated MS Office product.
Truthfully, I was trying to use BCM instead of setting up a database in
Access, but I think it's unavoidable, at this point. <sigh> Microsoft makes
things easier by making them more difficult. At least they guarantee that
I'll have plenty of reasons for keeping another dangerous geek off the
streets.
Thank you for your candor and all the helpful information. Keep up the
great work!
- Jodie
Michael Tissington
It not a complete CRM but it is designed for you to easily build on.
"MrJodie" <MrJ...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:06919F02-154E-4CF3...@microsoft.com...
MrJodie
Thanks, I'm going to give it a try. I am always looking for a better way to
do things, believe me, and offering that free single user license is PERFECT.
Because my new boss likes to be sure before he spends. He's not a Scrooge,
just very cautious. Thanks for the tip!
- Jodie
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
Here are a couple of additional BCM alternative options to consider:
www.avidian.com
www.mxcontact.com
The MX Contact is more complicated but extremely customizable and the Avidian
Prophet is very simple to employ depending upon your needs. Both offer "many-
to-many" relational linking capability.
-THP
MrJodie wrote:
>Michael,
>
>Thanks, I'm going to give it a try. I am always looking for a better way to
>do things, believe me, and offering that free single user license is PERFECT.
> Because my new boss likes to be sure before he spends. He's not a Scrooge,
>just very cautious. Thanks for the tip!
>
>- Jodie
>
>> You may want to take a look at our product called http://www.SQLView.net
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
Leonid S. Knyshov
> I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's
> making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible?
> The
> person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes
> sense, right?
This is not possible.
The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You
can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account
as a workaround.
There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight
integration with Small Business Accounting.
Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product
can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this
deficiency? My guess is not very many.
The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was
significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
--
Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO
Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com
MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003
Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner
See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM
Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)!
http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
- UniTech@discussions.microsoft.com NRG - UniTech
regional objective. However MS is International and has chosen NOT to
regionalise the Small Business Accounting 2007! As such the rational is
abusing UK or other international users who take the time and money to commit
to the product if it is stubbed off so poorly.
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
with its design intentions or to put more directly, its oversights. The
limited linking capability of the Opportunity Records is unforgivable. Many
of my opportunities involve more than just 1 person to close a sale. Many
companies I call upon have divisions within them. The inability to create
sub-accounts or even to link one account to another (ACT does this easily) is
a very real obstacle.
There are always ways to create workarounds but in my opinion, a user should
not have to make these trade-offs when it comes to such basic functional
features.
-THP
NRG - UniTech wrote:
>All sounds very excusable if you’re a software house with only a local US
>regional objective. However MS is International and has chosen NOT to
>regionalise the Small Business Accounting 2007! As such the rational is
>abusing UK or other international users who take the time and money to commit
>to the product if it is stubbed off so poorly.
>
>> > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's
>> > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible?
>[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was
>> significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
--
soeyken
Creating a copy of contacts I would surely not recommend, I also think
the thight integration with Small Business Accounting is no good excuse
for not implementing a real world scenario. Does everybody with BCM
needs Small Business Accounting anyway. We surely do not.
I'm currently living with this flaw BUT...
I'm also looking to other products like MxContacts because of 2
primarly basic functions
1. linking a single business contact with multiple accounts (design
flaw in BCM)
2. sharing a calendar
realy basic stuff, that still does not appear in BCM 2007 ;o(
I'm also replying because I'm affected ;o)
Greetings,
Soeyken
akelogorian
to be desired. There is no doubt that the entire Office 2007 Suite is, in
general a great deal better than previous systems. BCM however, certainly in
the B2TR version, lacking a great deal. (see my other comments in this
forum), but if you approach it on the basis that the more pressure that is
placed on Microsoft from outside of the States, the more the likelihood that
they will join the "Global" Community, and realise that there are far more
software buyers outside of the States than inside, and as far as business
software is concerned, most of us do things differently than them.
Oh!, and we won't change to thier system either.
Microsoft, don't kill the golden goose!! Get it right before you RTM, next
time.
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
US as well would help MS join the entry CRM community. I hate to say it
because it sounds like typical MS bashing but it seems that this software
giant is far too cozy and has too much of a dominating view of their
marketplace. The incentives just aren't there for them to innovate much in
some of the product lines so instead you get to live with workarounds and
clever target marketing excuses. Office 2007 looks nicely improved in a lot
of ways but some very substantive oversights remain with BCM that are tough
to trade off for many. I wish it were otherwise.
-THP
akelogorian wrote:
>There are aspects of the MS software release protocols that still leave a lot
>to be desired. There is no doubt that the entire Office 2007 Suite is, in
>general a great deal better than previous systems. BCM however, certainly in
>the B2TR version, lacking a great deal. (see my other comments in this
>forum), but if you approach it on the basis that the more pressure that is
>placed on Microsoft from outside of the States, the more the likelihood that
>they will join the "Global" Community, and realise that there are far more
>software buyers outside of the States than inside, and as far as business
>software is concerned, most of us do things differently than them.
>Oh!, and we won't change to thier system either.
>
>Microsoft, don't kill the golden goose!! Get it right before you RTM, next
>time.
>
>> Leonid,
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)!
>> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
--
Message posted via http://www.officekb.com
Luther
competitor other application is more international?
The hierarchy in BCM that the people you sell to belong to companies
predates SBA. And in itself predates BCM. It is a pattern for
organizing data that complements the majority of small business
scenarios.
If BCM has made the correct design tradeoffs for a small business sales
tool (despite the marketing goop slopped on top, BCM is neither a
contact manager nor a CRM app) it will come to dominate that niche. If
not, competitors with a better design will take that market. The fact
its competitors come to this newsgroup trying to steer customers their
way, and not vice-versa, bodes well for BCM's future.
Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend
years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't
designed to plow your fields?
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't
The only reason I hang around the van dealership is because there are a lot
of folks that are innocently drawn to use the van and are mistakenly led to
believe that they can plow their fields without the need for a tractor. I
say to MS: Build a tractor and let us dispense with the needless distraction
of the van in the first place. MS should stop wasting time trying to
convince small business that they should be happy with a van and don't need a
tractor.
To each their own interpretation.
I enjoy reading your predictable loyalty Luther.
-THP
Luther wrote:
>I heard BCM 2007 will be localized into nearly thirty locales. Which
>competitor other application is more international?
>
>The hierarchy in BCM that the people you sell to belong to companies
>predates SBA. And in itself predates BCM. It is a pattern for
>organizing data that complements the majority of small business
>scenarios.
>
>If BCM has made the correct design tradeoffs for a small business sales
>tool (despite the marketing goop slopped on top, BCM is neither a
>contact manager nor a CRM app) it will come to dominate that niche. If
>not, competitors with a better design will take that market. The fact
>its competitors come to this newsgroup trying to steer customers their
>way, and not vice-versa, bodes well for BCM's future.
>
>Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend
>years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't
>designed to plow your fields?
>
>> Not only from outside of the United States but more pressure from inside the
>> US as well would help MS join the entry CRM community. I hate to say it
>[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> >> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)!
>> >> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
--
Message posted via OfficeKB.com
http://www.officekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/outlook-bcm/200611/1
Luther
such. And that instead of helping users understand the product you are
deliberately misleading them through obfuscation.
If your argument was that the product is not really a business contact
manager or a CRM tool because it doesn't do such and such, then you
would have a valid line of criticism. You would also be correct if you
pointing out what is supposed to work, but is broken.
But to say that BCM is "broken" because it organizes people into the
organizations they work for, and that instead it should allow (and in
effect require) users to enter relationships between people and
organization, is plain wrong.
Microsoft intentionaly chose a very common design pattern that many
others also use. It's a tradeoff between simplicity and complexity.
Many businesses sell things to companies and they have to communicate
with employees of those companies.
Look at this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.outlook.bcm/browse_thread/thread/484a85baa521e658
The question is if BCM organizes contacts by company, and response is
that's the only feature the responder uses.
BCM deliberately organizes data in this manner because that is what
works for many small businesses. It is not broken because you have
different requirements.
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
I have never stated that BCM is "broken." It was always very stable and
reliable for me when I used it. As opposed to obfuscation, I could not be
any more clear with my consistent comments. Based upon my own normal, day-to-
day experience of using BCM to meet the standard real-world needs of my
business, I have concluded that BCM is NOT broken but rather, it is just
needlessly LIMITED in its designed functionality.
You are correct that BCM really is indeed a business contact manager and a
CRM tool. There is no denying that for any reason regardless of what it
specifically does or does not do. What it is designed to do, it consistently
does very well. I would merely like to see its intended design be expanded
so that it can better meet the most BASIC of needs for more its potential
users. Why argue in favor of defending more limits vs. less? If other
similar entry CRM products can easily do certain things then BCM can too.
There is no need to make excuses and apologize for what it lacks. If there
were more incentive, certain improvements could have been readily
incorporated by now after so many years. I have been playing around with the
online demo of the 2007 release and the next v.3.0 BCM is very pretty. It
has some nicely improved features. What has me sounding the alert however is
that there are still some glaring oversights that eliminate a LOT of common
users who would like to incorporate it.
I believe it is a false choice to say this is a trade off between complexity
and simplicity. We all agree that simplicity is good. My car would be much
more "simple" I guess if it did not have a steerng wheel or if it had a
transmission that lacked reverse. It is just easier to drive when it has
these features that enable me to do what I basically need to do in order to
effectively drive the car. We are not talking about feature options such as
power windows or leather upholstery here!
BCM does enable you to organize people into the organizations that they work
for. That is a good thing. However, there is only 1 very limited way to do
this in BCM and that is within a 1 (organization) to many (contacts)
relationship. With BCM, once you link a contact to 1 organization only, you
are then locked in to limiting that contact from being able to be linked to
any other organization and that simply is not the way many business
relationships operate in the real world. Even more limiting is the overly
"simple" Opportunity Record that does let you link the opportunity to either
1 Contact or 1 Account record but once it is linked to only 1 record, no
other record is allowed to be linked to that Opportunity. Most opportunities
in the REAL WORLD do not develop in such a limited vacuum!
Again, based upon my own fairly common and mainstream business needs
experience, I am incredulous to believe the statement that BCM deliberately
organizes data in this manner because that is what works for many small
businesses. Call me rare and odd if you must but I beg to differ in my
assessment of what "works" for many small businesses.
I guess it all comes down to how high or low of a level of expectation one
places upon basic design and common function.
Maybe I have it all wrong with my analysis here and MOST people indeed do not
really "need" to have a steering wheel or a reverse gear in their cars.
Maybe that really does work just fine for their "requirements."
-THP
Luther wrote:
>The matter at hand is not loyalty to a product, but correctness as
>such. And that instead of helping users understand the product you are
>deliberately misleading them through obfuscation.
>
>If your argument was that the product is not really a business contact
>manager or a CRM tool because it doesn't do such and such, then you
>would have a valid line of criticism. You would also be correct if you
>pointing out what is supposed to work, but is broken.
>
>But to say that BCM is "broken" because it organizes people into the
>organizations they work for, and that instead it should allow (and in
>effect require) users to enter relationships between people and
>organization, is plain wrong.
>
>Microsoft intentionaly chose a very common design pattern that many
>others also use. It's a tradeoff between simplicity and complexity.
>Many businesses sell things to companies and they have to communicate
>with employees of those companies.
>
>Look at this thread:
>http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.outlook.bcm/browse_thread/thread/484a85baa521e658
>
>The question is if BCM organizes contacts by company, and response is
>that's the only feature the responder uses.
>
>BCM deliberately organizes data in this manner because that is what
>works for many small businesses. It is not broken because you have
>different requirements.
>
>> [Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend
>> years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't
>[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
Waseem
> can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this
> deficiency? My guess is not very many.
>
> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was
> significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
I do not mean to be rude, but are you discussing business on planet earth?
I hope my business and that of others will prosper by getting additional
projects (accounts) from the same client (Business Contact).
I am interested in repeat business from the same client; many, many times!
Best Wishes
Waseem
soeyken
This link should help you
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.outlook.bcm/msg/32d0db6b014fb289
thx to Luther ;o)
Nevertheless it doesn't help all of us :o(
I want to link a single contact to multiple accounts...
Greetings,
soeyken
Luther
companies or institutions.
soeyken
Just to let you know -and all the others-
I've started a vote about this subject ;o)
You can vote for it here:
just read it here:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.outlook.bcm/browse_thread/thread/19ee155b150ed433
Or read it in whatever favorite reader ;o)
Greetings,
soeyken
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com schreef:
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com
MORE than only one of these new Project entity items at a time? If this is
the case in the new v.3, why not allow and include this more versatile
relational functionality also for both the Account Record entity and the
Opportunity Record entity? In reality, every Sales Opportunity process is a
"Project" to be completed hopefully with an intended close of a sale. Each
Opportunity process involves a series of stages and various contributing
tasks, meetings, etc. that all relate to the successful accomplishment of the
Opportunity's intended outcome. There are several other Outlook-centric
entry CRM apps that actually use the same record item in their design and
allow you to change the name to indicate the record either as an Opportunity
or a Project but they are essentially the same functional entity with just a
tweak of the verbage.
BCM's design seems headed in the right direction...ever so slowly.
With BCM I sometimes feel like a cheerleader at a Turtle race always yelling
"Go-Tortoise-GO!"
-THP
Luther wrote:
>BCM 3 (2007) has a Project type. Accounts are intended to be used for
>companies or institutions.
>
>> > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product
>> > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this
>[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)!
>> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
--