I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have monitored this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More to the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more surprising is that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final words in your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design and re- design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have commented about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue to have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as well. You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business contact record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work around for.
This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for many- to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a greater incentive to do so.
-THP
MrJodie wrote: >I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's >making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? The >person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes >sense, right?
There is also no ability with BCM to link one business contact record directly to another business contact record like you can between regular Outlook contact records. You also cannot directly link 1 BCM account record to another account record nor can you create any type of sub-account structure among any account records. You will have to move up into the more complicated and expensive MS CRM application to do any of this eventhough most smaller business users would easily benefit from such features. The ease of navigation alone among linked items would make this worthwhile.
The great marketing myth that MS initially has tried to perpetuate is that the "size" of one's business somehow dictated the targeted intention of BCM's intended functionality. This began with a very limited notion that "most" small business user needs were very rigid and definable in this regard. There seems to be an apologist mindset for BCM that remains ever since this limited design perspective began.
This apparent disconnect continues to amaze me and it really annoys some folks here when I consistently sound off about what I believe to be a very correctable design problem.
>I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have monitored >this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single >business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More to >the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more surprising is >that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final words in >your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
>Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who >encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This >apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design and re- >design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking >restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have commented >about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly >demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue to >have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this >linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as well. >You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business contact >record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is >something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work around >for.
>This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are >numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for many- >to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a >misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any >committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a greater >incentive to do so.
>-THP
>>I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's >>making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? The >>person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes >>sense, right?
You're not going to get an argument here. I may not know BCM, because I've just started using it at a new job, but I do know software, including several mid-large scale CRM programs. The last company that I worked for developed it's own CRM using the programmer pool they had in place (3 people) using an MS SQL back-end with a proprietary GUI over the top. It worked better than this fully integrated MS Office product.
Truthfully, I was trying to use BCM instead of setting up a database in Access, but I think it's unavoidable, at this point. <sigh> Microsoft makes things easier by making them more difficult. At least they guarantee that I'll have plenty of reasons for keeping another dangerous geek off the streets.
Thank you for your candor and all the helpful information. Keep up the great work!
"mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com" wrote: > Additional comment:
> There is also no ability with BCM to link one business contact record > directly to another business contact record like you can between regular > Outlook contact records. You also cannot directly link 1 BCM account record > to another account record nor can you create any type of sub-account > structure among any account records. You will have to move up into the more > complicated and expensive MS CRM application to do any of this eventhough > most smaller business users would easily benefit from such features. The > ease of navigation alone among linked items would make this worthwhile.
> The great marketing myth that MS initially has tried to perpetuate is that > the "size" of one's business somehow dictated the targeted intention of BCM's > intended functionality. This began with a very limited notion that "most" > small business user needs were very rigid and definable in this regard. > There seems to be an apologist mindset for BCM that remains ever since this > limited design perspective began.
> This apparent disconnect continues to amaze me and it really annoys some > folks here when I consistently sound off about what I believe to be a very > correctable design problem.
> -THP
> mrtimpeterson wrote: > >Mr. Jodie,
> >I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have monitored > >this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single > >business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More to > >the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more surprising is > >that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final words in > >your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
> >Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who > >encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This > >apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design and re- > >design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking > >restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have commented > >about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly > >demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue to > >have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this > >linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as well. > >You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business contact > >record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is > >something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work around > >for.
> >This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are > >numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for many- > >to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a > >misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any > >committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a greater > >incentive to do so.
> >-THP
> >>I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > >>making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? The > >>person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > >>sense, right?
> You're not going to get an argument here. I may not know BCM, because > I've > just started using it at a new job, but I do know software, including > several > mid-large scale CRM programs. The last company that I worked for > developed > it's own CRM using the programmer pool they had in place (3 people) using > an > MS SQL back-end with a proprietary GUI over the top. It worked better > than > this fully integrated MS Office product.
> Truthfully, I was trying to use BCM instead of setting up a database in > Access, but I think it's unavoidable, at this point. <sigh> Microsoft > makes > things easier by making them more difficult. At least they guarantee that > I'll have plenty of reasons for keeping another dangerous geek off the > streets.
> Thank you for your candor and all the helpful information. Keep up the > great work!
> - Jodie
> "mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com" wrote:
>> Additional comment:
>> There is also no ability with BCM to link one business contact record >> directly to another business contact record like you can between regular >> Outlook contact records. You also cannot directly link 1 BCM account >> record >> to another account record nor can you create any type of sub-account >> structure among any account records. You will have to move up into the >> more >> complicated and expensive MS CRM application to do any of this eventhough >> most smaller business users would easily benefit from such features. The >> ease of navigation alone among linked items would make this worthwhile.
>> The great marketing myth that MS initially has tried to perpetuate is >> that >> the "size" of one's business somehow dictated the targeted intention of >> BCM's >> intended functionality. This began with a very limited notion that >> "most" >> small business user needs were very rigid and definable in this regard. >> There seems to be an apologist mindset for BCM that remains ever since >> this >> limited design perspective began.
>> This apparent disconnect continues to amaze me and it really annoys some >> folks here when I consistently sound off about what I believe to be a >> very >> correctable design problem.
>> -THP
>> mrtimpeterson wrote: >> >Mr. Jodie,
>> >I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have >> >monitored >> >this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single >> >business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More >> >to >> >the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more >> >surprising is >> >that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final >> >words in >> >your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
>> >Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who >> >encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This >> >apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design >> >and re- >> >design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking >> >restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have >> >commented >> >about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly >> >demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue >> >to >> >have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this >> >linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as >> >well. >> >You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business >> >contact >> >record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is >> >something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work >> >around >> >for.
>> >This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are >> >numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for >> >many- >> >to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a >> >misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any >> >committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a >> >greater >> >incentive to do so.
>> >-THP
>> >>I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. >> >>It's >> >>making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this >> >>possible? The >> >>person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it >> >>makes >> >>sense, right?
Thanks, I'm going to give it a try. I am always looking for a better way to do things, believe me, and offering that free single user license is PERFECT. Because my new boss likes to be sure before he spends. He's not a Scrooge, just very cautious. Thanks for the tip!
> > You're not going to get an argument here. I may not know BCM, because > > I've > > just started using it at a new job, but I do know software, including > > several > > mid-large scale CRM programs. The last company that I worked for > > developed > > it's own CRM using the programmer pool they had in place (3 people) using > > an > > MS SQL back-end with a proprietary GUI over the top. It worked better > > than > > this fully integrated MS Office product.
> > Truthfully, I was trying to use BCM instead of setting up a database in > > Access, but I think it's unavoidable, at this point. <sigh> Microsoft > > makes > > things easier by making them more difficult. At least they guarantee that > > I'll have plenty of reasons for keeping another dangerous geek off the > > streets.
> > Thank you for your candor and all the helpful information. Keep up the > > great work!
> > - Jodie
> > "mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com" wrote:
> >> Additional comment:
> >> There is also no ability with BCM to link one business contact record > >> directly to another business contact record like you can between regular > >> Outlook contact records. You also cannot directly link 1 BCM account > >> record > >> to another account record nor can you create any type of sub-account > >> structure among any account records. You will have to move up into the > >> more > >> complicated and expensive MS CRM application to do any of this eventhough > >> most smaller business users would easily benefit from such features. The > >> ease of navigation alone among linked items would make this worthwhile.
> >> The great marketing myth that MS initially has tried to perpetuate is > >> that > >> the "size" of one's business somehow dictated the targeted intention of > >> BCM's > >> intended functionality. This began with a very limited notion that > >> "most" > >> small business user needs were very rigid and definable in this regard. > >> There seems to be an apologist mindset for BCM that remains ever since > >> this > >> limited design perspective began.
> >> This apparent disconnect continues to amaze me and it really annoys some > >> folks here when I consistently sound off about what I believe to be a > >> very > >> correctable design problem.
> >> -THP
> >> mrtimpeterson wrote: > >> >Mr. Jodie,
> >> >I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have > >> >monitored > >> >this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single > >> >business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More > >> >to > >> >the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more > >> >surprising is > >> >that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final > >> >words in > >> >your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
> >> >Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who > >> >encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This > >> >apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design > >> >and re- > >> >design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking > >> >restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have > >> >commented > >> >about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly > >> >demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue > >> >to > >> >have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this > >> >linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as > >> >well. > >> >You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business > >> >contact > >> >record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is > >> >something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work > >> >around > >> >for.
> >> >This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are > >> >numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for > >> >many- > >> >to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a > >> >misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any > >> >committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a > >> >greater > >> >incentive to do so.
> >> >-THP
> >> >>I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. > >> >>It's > >> >>making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this > >> >>possible? The > >> >>person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it > >> >>makes > >> >>sense, right?
The MX Contact is more complicated but extremely customizable and the Avidian Prophet is very simple to employ depending upon your needs. Both offer "many- to-many" relational linking capability.
-THP
MrJodie wrote: >Michael,
>Thanks, I'm going to give it a try. I am always looking for a better way to >do things, believe me, and offering that free single user license is PERFECT. > Because my new boss likes to be sure before he spends. He's not a Scrooge, >just very cautious. Thanks for the tip!
> I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > The > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > sense, right?
This is not possible.
The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account as a workaround.
There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight integration with Small Business Accounting.
Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this deficiency? My guess is not very many.
The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was significantly enhanced for Office 2007. -- Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
All sounds very excusable if you’re a software house with only a local US regional objective. However MS is International and has chosen NOT to regionalise the Small Business Accounting 2007! As such the rational is abusing UK or other international users who take the time and money to commit to the product if it is stubbed off so poorly.
"Leonid S. Knyshov" wrote: > "MrJodie" <MrJo...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message > news:B0A1E0AB-292D-438B-8E08-4A5C87BA42C6@microsoft.com... > > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > > The > > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > > sense, right?
> This is not possible.
> The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You > can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account > as a workaround.
> There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight > integration with Small Business Accounting.
> Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > significantly enhanced for Office 2007. > -- > Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO > Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com > MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 > Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner > See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
More apologizing and excuses won't correct that BCM still needs a LOT of work with its design intentions or to put more directly, its oversights. The limited linking capability of the Opportunity Records is unforgivable. Many of my opportunities involve more than just 1 person to close a sale. Many companies I call upon have divisions within them. The inability to create sub-accounts or even to link one account to another (ACT does this easily) is a very real obstacle.
There are always ways to create workarounds but in my opinion, a user should not have to make these trade-offs when it comes to such basic functional features.
-THP
NRG - UniTech wrote: >All sounds very excusable if you’re a software house with only a local US >regional objective. However MS is International and has chosen NOT to >regionalise the Small Business Accounting 2007! As such the rational is >abusing UK or other international users who take the time and money to commit >to the product if it is stubbed off so poorly.
>> > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's >> > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? >[quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was >> significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
Creating a copy of contacts I would surely not recommend, I also think the thight integration with Small Business Accounting is no good excuse for not implementing a real world scenario. Does everybody with BCM needs Small Business Accounting anyway. We surely do not.
I'm currently living with this flaw BUT... I'm also looking to other products like MxContacts because of 2 primarly basic functions
1. linking a single business contact with multiple accounts (design flaw in BCM) 2. sharing a calendar
realy basic stuff, that still does not appear in BCM 2007 ;o( I'm also replying because I'm affected ;o)
Leonid S. Knyshov wrote: > "MrJodie" <MrJo...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message > news:B0A1E0AB-292D-438B-8E08-4A5C87BA42C6@microsoft.com... > > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > > The > > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > > sense, right?
> This is not possible.
> The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You > can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account > as a workaround.
> There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight > integration with Small Business Accounting.
> Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > significantly enhanced for Office 2007. > -- > Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO > Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com > MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 > Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner > See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
There are aspects of the MS software release protocols that still leave a lot to be desired. There is no doubt that the entire Office 2007 Suite is, in general a great deal better than previous systems. BCM however, certainly in the B2TR version, lacking a great deal. (see my other comments in this forum), but if you approach it on the basis that the more pressure that is placed on Microsoft from outside of the States, the more the likelihood that they will join the "Global" Community, and realise that there are far more software buyers outside of the States than inside, and as far as business software is concerned, most of us do things differently than them. Oh!, and we won't change to thier system either.
Microsoft, don't kill the golden goose!! Get it right before you RTM, next time.
> Creating a copy of contacts I would surely not recommend, I also think > the thight integration with Small Business Accounting is no good excuse > for not implementing a real world scenario. Does everybody with BCM > needs Small Business Accounting anyway. We surely do not.
> I'm currently living with this flaw BUT... > I'm also looking to other products like MxContacts because of 2 > primarly basic functions
> 1. linking a single business contact with multiple accounts (design > flaw in BCM) > 2. sharing a calendar
> realy basic stuff, that still does not appear in BCM 2007 ;o( > I'm also replying because I'm affected ;o)
> Greetings, > Soeyken
> Leonid S. Knyshov wrote: > > "MrJodie" <MrJo...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message > > news:B0A1E0AB-292D-438B-8E08-4A5C87BA42C6@microsoft.com... > > > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > > > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > > > The > > > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > > > sense, right?
> > This is not possible.
> > The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You > > can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account > > as a workaround.
> > There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight > > integration with Small Business Accounting.
> > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> > The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > > significantly enhanced for Office 2007. > > -- > > Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO > > Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com > > MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 > > Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner > > See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM > > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
Not only from outside of the United States but more pressure from inside the US as well would help MS join the entry CRM community. I hate to say it because it sounds like typical MS bashing but it seems that this software giant is far too cozy and has too much of a dominating view of their marketplace. The incentives just aren't there for them to innovate much in some of the product lines so instead you get to live with workarounds and clever target marketing excuses. Office 2007 looks nicely improved in a lot of ways but some very substantive oversights remain with BCM that are tough to trade off for many. I wish it were otherwise.
akelogorian wrote: >There are aspects of the MS software release protocols that still leave a lot >to be desired. There is no doubt that the entire Office 2007 Suite is, in >general a great deal better than previous systems. BCM however, certainly in >the B2TR version, lacking a great deal. (see my other comments in this >forum), but if you approach it on the basis that the more pressure that is >placed on Microsoft from outside of the States, the more the likelihood that >they will join the "Global" Community, and realise that there are far more >software buyers outside of the States than inside, and as far as business >software is concerned, most of us do things differently than them. >Oh!, and we won't change to thier system either.
>Microsoft, don't kill the golden goose!! Get it right before you RTM, next >time.
>> Leonid,
>[quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! >> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
I heard BCM 2007 will be localized into nearly thirty locales. Which competitor other application is more international?
The hierarchy in BCM that the people you sell to belong to companies predates SBA. And in itself predates BCM. It is a pattern for organizing data that complements the majority of small business scenarios.
If BCM has made the correct design tradeoffs for a small business sales tool (despite the marketing goop slopped on top, BCM is neither a contact manager nor a CRM app) it will come to dominate that niche. If not, competitors with a better design will take that market. The fact its competitors come to this newsgroup trying to steer customers their way, and not vice-versa, bodes well for BCM's future.
Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't designed to plow your fields?
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com wrote: > Not only from outside of the United States but more pressure from inside the > US as well would help MS join the entry CRM community. I hate to say it > because it sounds like typical MS bashing but it seems that this software > giant is far too cozy and has too much of a dominating view of their > marketplace. The incentives just aren't there for them to innovate much in > some of the product lines so instead you get to live with workarounds and > clever target marketing excuses. Office 2007 looks nicely improved in a lot > of ways but some very substantive oversights remain with BCM that are tough > to trade off for many. I wish it were otherwise.
> -THP
> akelogorian wrote: > >There are aspects of the MS software release protocols that still leave a lot > >to be desired. There is no doubt that the entire Office 2007 Suite is, in > >general a great deal better than previous systems. BCM however, certainly in > >the B2TR version, lacking a great deal. (see my other comments in this > >forum), but if you approach it on the basis that the more pressure that is > >placed on Microsoft from outside of the States, the more the likelihood that > >they will join the "Global" Community, and realise that there are far more > >software buyers outside of the States than inside, and as far as business > >software is concerned, most of us do things differently than them. > >Oh!, and we won't change to thier system either.
> >Microsoft, don't kill the golden goose!! Get it right before you RTM, next > >time.
> >> Leonid,
> >[quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > >> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
[Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't designed to plow your fields?]
The only reason I hang around the van dealership is because there are a lot of folks that are innocently drawn to use the van and are mistakenly led to believe that they can plow their fields without the need for a tractor. I say to MS: Build a tractor and let us dispense with the needless distraction of the van in the first place. MS should stop wasting time trying to convince small business that they should be happy with a van and don't need a tractor.
Luther wrote: >I heard BCM 2007 will be localized into nearly thirty locales. Which >competitor other application is more international?
>The hierarchy in BCM that the people you sell to belong to companies >predates SBA. And in itself predates BCM. It is a pattern for >organizing data that complements the majority of small business >scenarios.
>If BCM has made the correct design tradeoffs for a small business sales >tool (despite the marketing goop slopped on top, BCM is neither a >contact manager nor a CRM app) it will come to dominate that niche. If >not, competitors with a better design will take that market. The fact >its competitors come to this newsgroup trying to steer customers their >way, and not vice-versa, bodes well for BCM's future.
>Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend >years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't >designed to plow your fields?
>> Not only from outside of the United States but more pressure from inside the >> US as well would help MS join the entry CRM community. I hate to say it >[quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! >> >> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
The matter at hand is not loyalty to a product, but correctness as such. And that instead of helping users understand the product you are deliberately misleading them through obfuscation.
If your argument was that the product is not really a business contact manager or a CRM tool because it doesn't do such and such, then you would have a valid line of criticism. You would also be correct if you pointing out what is supposed to work, but is broken.
But to say that BCM is "broken" because it organizes people into the organizations they work for, and that instead it should allow (and in effect require) users to enter relationships between people and organization, is plain wrong.
Microsoft intentionaly chose a very common design pattern that many others also use. It's a tradeoff between simplicity and complexity. Many businesses sell things to companies and they have to communicate with employees of those companies.
The question is if BCM organizes contacts by company, and response is that's the only feature the responder uses.
BCM deliberately organizes data in this manner because that is what works for many small businesses. It is not broken because you have different requirements.
mrtimpeterson via OfficeKB.com wrote: > [Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend > years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't > designed to plow your fields?]
> The only reason I hang around the van dealership is because there are a lot > of folks that are innocently drawn to use the van and are mistakenly led to > believe that they can plow their fields without the need for a tractor. I > say to MS: Build a tractor and let us dispense with the needless distraction > of the van in the first place. MS should stop wasting time trying to > convince small business that they should be happy with a van and don't need a > tractor.
> To each their own interpretation.
> I enjoy reading your predictable loyalty Luther.
> -THP
> Luther wrote: > >I heard BCM 2007 will be localized into nearly thirty locales. Which > >competitor other application is more international?
> >The hierarchy in BCM that the people you sell to belong to companies > >predates SBA. And in itself predates BCM. It is a pattern for > >organizing data that complements the majority of small business > >scenarios.
> >If BCM has made the correct design tradeoffs for a small business sales > >tool (despite the marketing goop slopped on top, BCM is neither a > >contact manager nor a CRM app) it will come to dominate that niche. If > >not, competitors with a better design will take that market. The fact > >its competitors come to this newsgroup trying to steer customers their > >way, and not vice-versa, bodes well for BCM's future.
> >Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend > >years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't > >designed to plow your fields?
> >> Not only from outside of the United States but more pressure from inside the > >> US as well would help MS join the entry CRM community. I hate to say it > >[quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> >> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > >> >> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
I have never stated that BCM is "broken." It was always very stable and reliable for me when I used it. As opposed to obfuscation, I could not be any more clear with my consistent comments. Based upon my own normal, day-to- day experience of using BCM to meet the standard real-world needs of my business, I have concluded that BCM is NOT broken but rather, it is just needlessly LIMITED in its designed functionality.
You are correct that BCM really is indeed a business contact manager and a CRM tool. There is no denying that for any reason regardless of what it specifically does or does not do. What it is designed to do, it consistently does very well. I would merely like to see its intended design be expanded so that it can better meet the most BASIC of needs for more its potential users. Why argue in favor of defending more limits vs. less? If other similar entry CRM products can easily do certain things then BCM can too. There is no need to make excuses and apologize for what it lacks. If there were more incentive, certain improvements could have been readily incorporated by now after so many years. I have been playing around with the online demo of the 2007 release and the next v.3.0 BCM is very pretty. It has some nicely improved features. What has me sounding the alert however is that there are still some glaring oversights that eliminate a LOT of common users who would like to incorporate it.
I believe it is a false choice to say this is a trade off between complexity and simplicity. We all agree that simplicity is good. My car would be much more "simple" I guess if it did not have a steerng wheel or if it had a transmission that lacked reverse. It is just easier to drive when it has these features that enable me to do what I basically need to do in order to effectively drive the car. We are not talking about feature options such as power windows or leather upholstery here!
BCM does enable you to organize people into the organizations that they work for. That is a good thing. However, there is only 1 very limited way to do this in BCM and that is within a 1 (organization) to many (contacts) relationship. With BCM, once you link a contact to 1 organization only, you are then locked in to limiting that contact from being able to be linked to any other organization and that simply is not the way many business relationships operate in the real world. Even more limiting is the overly "simple" Opportunity Record that does let you link the opportunity to either 1 Contact or 1 Account record but once it is linked to only 1 record, no other record is allowed to be linked to that Opportunity. Most opportunities in the REAL WORLD do not develop in such a limited vacuum!
Again, based upon my own fairly common and mainstream business needs experience, I am incredulous to believe the statement that BCM deliberately organizes data in this manner because that is what works for many small businesses. Call me rare and odd if you must but I beg to differ in my assessment of what "works" for many small businesses.
I guess it all comes down to how high or low of a level of expectation one places upon basic design and common function.
Maybe I have it all wrong with my analysis here and MOST people indeed do not really "need" to have a steering wheel or a reverse gear in their cars. Maybe that really does work just fine for their "requirements."
Luther wrote: >The matter at hand is not loyalty to a product, but correctness as >such. And that instead of helping users understand the product you are >deliberately misleading them through obfuscation.
>If your argument was that the product is not really a business contact >manager or a CRM tool because it doesn't do such and such, then you >would have a valid line of criticism. You would also be correct if you >pointing out what is supposed to work, but is broken.
>But to say that BCM is "broken" because it organizes people into the >organizations they work for, and that instead it should allow (and in >effect require) users to enter relationships between people and >organization, is plain wrong.
>Microsoft intentionaly chose a very common design pattern that many >others also use. It's a tradeoff between simplicity and complexity. >Many businesses sell things to companies and they have to communicate >with employees of those companies.
>The question is if BCM organizes contacts by company, and response is >that's the only feature the responder uses.
>BCM deliberately organizes data in this manner because that is what >works for many small businesses. It is not broken because you have >different requirements.
>> [Some businesses need tractors and others need utility vans. Why spend >> years hanging around the van dealership whining that their vans weren't >[quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> Message posted via OfficeKB.com >> http://www.officekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/outlook-bcm/200611/1
> Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
I do not mean to be rude, but are you discussing business on planet earth?
I hope my business and that of others will prosper by getting additional projects (accounts) from the same client (Business Contact).
I am interested in repeat business from the same client; many, many times!
"Leonid S. Knyshov" wrote: > "MrJodie" <MrJo...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message > news:B0A1E0AB-292D-438B-8E08-4A5C87BA42C6@microsoft.com... > > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > > The > > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > > sense, right?
> This is not possible.
> The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You > can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account > as a workaround.
> There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight > integration with Small Business Accounting.
> Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > significantly enhanced for Office 2007. > -- > Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO > Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com > MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 > Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner > See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
Waseem wrote: > > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> > The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > > significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
> I do not mean to be rude, but are you discussing business on planet earth?
> I hope my business and that of others will prosper by getting additional > projects (accounts) from the same client (Business Contact).
> I am interested in repeat business from the same client; many, many times!
> Best Wishes > Waseem
> "Leonid S. Knyshov" wrote:
> > "MrJodie" <MrJo...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message > > news:B0A1E0AB-292D-438B-8E08-4A5C87BA42C6@microsoft.com... > > > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > > > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > > > The > > > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > > > sense, right?
> > This is not possible.
> > The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You > > can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account > > as a workaround.
> > There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight > > integration with Small Business Accounting.
> > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> > The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > > significantly enhanced for Office 2007. > > -- > > Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO > > Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com > > MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 > > Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner > > See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM > > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
Waseem wrote: > > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> > The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > > significantly enhanced for Office 2007.
> I do not mean to be rude, but are you discussing business on planet earth?
> I hope my business and that of others will prosper by getting additional > projects (accounts) from the same client (Business Contact).
> I am interested in repeat business from the same client; many, many times!
> Best Wishes > Waseem
> "Leonid S. Knyshov" wrote:
> > "MrJodie" <MrJo...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message > > news:B0A1E0AB-292D-438B-8E08-4A5C87BA42C6@microsoft.com... > > > I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > > > making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? > > > The > > > person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > > > sense, right?
> > This is not possible.
> > The product is designed to allow one contact to work for one company. You > > can create a copy of the original contact to associate with another account > > as a workaround.
> > There is a reason for this, and that reason is the product's tight > > integration with Small Business Accounting.
> > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product > > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this > > deficiency? My guess is not very many.
> > The truth is that BCM is a good product that needs more work and it was > > significantly enhanced for Office 2007. > > -- > > Leonid S. Knyshov, CEO > > Crashproof Solutions, LLC - http://www.crashproofsolutions.com > > MCP Exchange 2003/Small Business Server 2003 > > Microsoft Small Business Specialist Partner > > See the tips and tricks section on my website for video tutorials on BCM > > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! > > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
> I have read too many posts like yours over the years that I have monitored > this newsgroup. The startling and sad reality is that linking a single > business contact with multiple accounts is not possible with BCM. More to > the point, this requested function is NOT supported! Even more surprising is > that some proponents of BCM are actually "proud" of this! The final words in > your post tell all..."so it makes sense, right?"
> Your situation makes perfect sense to those of us in the real world who > encounter these types of business relationships all the time. This > apparently does NOT make sense however to those who continue to design and re- > design BCM over the past 4 years. This built-in 1-to-many linking > restriction is perhaps my biggest critique of this app. I have commented > about this endlessly and my comments are usually dismissed as needlessly > demanding or unrealistic. It appears that BCM v. 3 (2007) will continue to > have this built in limitation as well. Even more amazing is that this > linking limitation also applies to any business opportunity record as well. > You are allowed to link each opportunity ONLY to either one business contact > record or one account record. This one-size-fits-all requirement is > something you will have to either live with or try to concoct a work around > for.
> This design flaw is not a necessity (programming wise) because there are > numerous other relational database programs that have the capacity for many- > to-many linking. In my opinion, this oversight exists either due to a > misinterpretation of its importance to most end users or the lack of any > committment to change it even though it could be done if there were a greater > incentive to do so.
> -THP
> MrJodie wrote: > >I'm trying to link a single business contact with multiple accounts. It's > >making me create a seperate contact for each account. Is this possible? The > >person is the primary contact and owner for both businesses, so it makes > >sense, right?
Does the new upcoming BCM 3 allow one Business Contact Record to be linked to MORE than only one of these new Project entity items at a time? If this is the case in the new v.3, why not allow and include this more versatile relational functionality also for both the Account Record entity and the Opportunity Record entity? In reality, every Sales Opportunity process is a "Project" to be completed hopefully with an intended close of a sale. Each Opportunity process involves a series of stages and various contributing tasks, meetings, etc. that all relate to the successful accomplishment of the Opportunity's intended outcome. There are several other Outlook-centric entry CRM apps that actually use the same record item in their design and allow you to change the name to indicate the record either as an Opportunity or a Project but they are essentially the same functional entity with just a tweak of the verbage.
BCM's design seems headed in the right direction...ever so slowly.
With BCM I sometimes feel like a cheerleader at a Turtle race always yelling "Go-Tortoise-GO!"
-THP
Luther wrote: >BCM 3 (2007) has a Project type. Accounts are intended to be used for >companies or institutions.
>> > Look at it this way, out of several thousand of contacts that this product >> > can manage out of the box, realistically how many are affected by this >[quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> > Send a smile to Microsoft (Office 2007 Beta feedback tool)! >> > http://tinyurl.com/m4omy
