Chase Credit Card - Good Deal?
Neighbor
I am looking to buy a home and running really low on cash.
I got a Chase Credit Card with credit line of $10,000 approved. It
claims 0% APR on all purchases and balance transfer until Jan 2007. I
guess that I have to be aware of all possible charges before using it.
The charges I can foresee by calling them is as following:
max $75 finance on balance transfer check and conveniece check
min payment per month = 2% of the balance
I plan to pay it off before Jan 2007.
Is this really a good deal that I should utilize?
Thanks,
Neighbor
Neighbor
William R Wood
too high. Pay credit cards off in full every month.
If you must borrow money, go to a legitimate bank, not some off the wall
loan shark type outfit, and take out a normal loan at a much lower rate.
And do your best to pay that loan off early. Protect your credit rating at
all costs. Much of what you do today is affected by your credit score.
Regards,
Bill Wood
Fountain Hills, AZ
"Neighbor" <neighb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129234552.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
William R Wood
There is something very fishy about the offer you describe. No interest on
money borrowed or balances transferred until January 2007????? That's well
over a year from now. I never heard of a card company doing that and, if
its true, there is a major kicker hidden in there somewhere. Watch out, and
find out what the kicker is. In fact let us know the exact name of the card
so we can look it up on Chase's website.
Regards
Bill Wood
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ec9OymM...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
William R Wood
is not guaranteed. Chase can change it anytime they want. I recently
applied for a Chase card that sounded good in the promotion but when I
actually got the card and read the fine print, all of the alleged benefits
were bogus. I called and immediately cancelled the card.
Right now the best credit card I can find is the Citi Dividend Platinum
Select - 5% cashback on gas, groceries and drugs, 1% cashback on everything
else. Pay the card in full every month and you don't need to worry about
the interest rate.
Regards
Bill Wood
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ec9OymM...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Neighbor
from them last night. 3.99% APR lift time.
Not sure what to do with Chase. But it is 0% APR fixed through
introductory period. I might use it as well. Will call to find out.
Barrnabas Collins
wrote:
>There is something very fishy about the offer you describe. No interest on
>money borrowed or balances transferred until January 2007?????
What would be fishy about that?
Most likely it is no interest until January 2007, at which point it
jumps up to 18%+ interest. (Depending on your state).
Oh and enough fees to choke a horse.
> That's well
>over a year from now. I never heard of a card company doing that and, if
>its true, there is a major kicker hidden in there somewhere. Watch out, and
>find out what the kicker is. In fact let us know the exact name of the card
>so we can look it up on Chase's website.
Some cards offer an "introductory" rate to lure you in and then end
it somewhere down the road when it the interest rate spikes up.
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Unknown
Regards,
.
There's one thing you must be sure of - will they consider that a balance transfer, or a cash advance?
Some offers will let you use the 0% deal on the convenience checks, but sometimes if you write them to
yourself, there is a high interest rate because they consider it a cash advance. As long as you're
sure it's good for 0%, and you'd definitely force yourself to pay it off, it's a good deal.
Vasiliy Zaitsev
PGP Key: 0xF8F5619A
Unknown
There is something very fishy about the offer you describe. No interest on
money borrowed or balances transferred until January 2007????? That's well
over a year from now. I never heard of a card company doing that and, if
its true, there is a major kicker hidden in there somewhere. Watch out, and
find out what the kicker is. In fact let us know the exact name of the card
so we can look it up on Chase's website.
Regards
Bill Wood
That's not fishy at all. I get them from chase all the time. The last time I took advantage of one
was in July. I transferred the last $12,000 of a max high of $52,000 to a 0% Chase card that is 0%
through next September. It's now down to $8,500 left. It's a beautiful thing to see every dollar of
a $1000 monthly payment go towards the principle. To get the balances down so quickly, I got several
transfer offers that were 2.8% until the balance was paid off. For me, low interest cards, and
setting everything up on auto-payment were the key. Oh yeah, and not using the damn things anymore.
Credit cards can be spawn of the devil if you use them irresponsibly, which I used to.
William R Wood
which demonstrates that this promotion is a scam to trap the unwary. If you
make a mistake and violate any of the fine print conditions, you are looking
at very high rates.
If this deal was clean I would take out 10 of these cards (these offers are
coming in the mail from Chase and several other CC companies at the rate of
3-4 a day) and use a cash advance to buy a 100,000 CD for a year. Then pay
off the credit cards at 0% when the CD comes due and keep the interest on
the CD :) I could make a quick $4,500 with that deal. Chase knows this and
they are not going to sit there and let people pull that maneuver on them.
This is one of those too good to be true offers and it still smells fishy to
me.
If you try it I wish you good luck.
Bill Wood
"Neighbor" <neighb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129316249....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Unknown
which demonstrates that this promotion is a scam to trap the unwary. If you
make a mistake and violate any of the fine print conditions, you are looking
at very high rates.
If this deal was clean I would take out 10 of these cards (these offers are
coming in the mail from Chase and several other CC companies at the rate of
3-4 a day) and use a cash advance to buy a 100,000 CD for a year. Then pay
off the credit cards at 0% when the CD comes due and keep the interest on
the CD :) I could make a quick $4,500 with that deal. Chase knows this and
they are not going to sit there and let people pull that maneuver on them.
This is one of those too good to be true offers and it still smells fishy to
me.
If you try it I wish you good luck.
Bill Wood
.
.
.
It is a "clean" deal. They make money because they know most people will not actually pay them off in
the time limit, or they will at some time be late on a payment. That's basically what's in the fine
print - if you are late on a payment they MAY raise the rate to something like 12%, and if you go 30
more days past due, they consider it in default and jack the rate to 27% or something ridiculous like
that. As for your example with the CDs, they normally can only be used for balance transfers, not
cash advances, and also cannot be used to pay off other chase accounts.
If you set it up as an automatic payment so it cannot be late, and actually pay them off in the time
limit, they are a great deal. When I was paying off my ridiculous $54,000 total debt, I used to
bounce from 12 month 0% deal to another one when the first one ran out.
It's just like those rebate deals at electronics stores where you can get a full rebate, making the
item essesentially free except for the sales tax. They still make money on those, because they can
predict with actuarial tables how many people will actually mail them back correctly and on time.
It's a surprisingly low number, something like only 30% that actually get the rebates. I'm sure the
percentage of people that actually pay off 0% loans in the time limit is the same, if not lower.
William R Wood
"Vasiliy Zaitsev" <fo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9Judne1UNIIV-8ze...@giganews.com...
snip> .
Vasiliy,
OK you convinced me. The Chase deal does allow cash advances at 0% APR.
I'm calling them on Monday to apply for 10 cards. I only have 3 Citi
Dividend cards which gives me $900 cashback per year but that shouldn't
bother them since I pay the cards in full every month. I have zero other
debts and a high credit score so they might do it. I must have been
thinking of 5 year CDs when I said I could make $4500. Capital One has a
one year CD at 3.85% so that will only produce $3850 on $100K. But I'll
take it. I will setup the Chase card for monthly autopay from my checking
account for the 2% minimum payment.
Only proviso is that you have to stand behind your promise that this is a
clean deal. I'll send you a bill for any finance charges they nail me with
:)
Regards,
Bill Wood
William R Wood
>
snip
>
> That's not fishy at all. I get them from chase all the time. The last
> time I took advantage of one
> was in July. I transferred the last $12,000 of a max high of $52,000 to a
> 0% Chase card that is 0%
> through next September. It's now down to $8,500 left. It's a beautiful
> thing to see every dollar of
> a $1000 monthly payment go towards the principle. To get the balances
> down so quickly, I got several
> transfer offers that were 2.8% until the balance was paid off. For me,
> low interest cards, and
> setting everything up on auto-payment were the key.
$52K! Wow that must have made sound sleep a little difficult :)
I am impressed by your self discipline to get rid of that massive debt.
Many people would have filed for bankruptcy and stiffed the creditors. Nice
to see that there are still some folks like you who believe in personal
responsibility.
I am totally against using credit cards to borrow money but I must admit you
certainly seem to be able to handle it.
> Oh yeah, and not using the damn things anymore.
>
> Credit cards can be spawn of the devil if you use them irresponsibly,
> which I used to.
Now here I disagree; I say use credit cards for everything possible!! Just
pay the bill in full each month or use one of the 0% APR deals that you have
obviously mastered :)
Credit cards are a powerful tool for responsible consumers. Use a cashback
or other reward card and let the credit card pay you to borrow money from
them for FREE most of the year. Since most cards give you a 21 day grace
period, you can finance your entire life on free credit for 75% of every
year forever. And the card will pay you to do it. With the 3 Citi Dividend
cards we have I am getting almost $900 cashback per year. Most of our bills
are on auto pay from the credit card and the credit cards are on auto pay
from our checking account. We buy food, clothes, gas, drugs, and everything
else possible on the card in addition to the auto paid bills. The Citi card
pays 5% on groceries, gas and drugs and 1% on everything else. I have never
paid a penny in finance charges or other fees, since we pay every bill in
full each month. Plus the credit card protects you if you have a problem
with a vendor. You can reverse the charge if you get screwed. This has
saved me a lot of pain the few times that I had to use it.
Regards
Bill Wood
Barrnabas Collins
wrote:
>There is something very fishy about the offer you describe. No interest on
>money borrowed or balances transferred until January 2007????? That's well
>over a year from now. I never heard of a card company doing that and, if
>its true, there is a major kicker hidden in there somewhere. Watch out, and
>find out what the kicker is. In fact let us know the exact name of the card
>so we can look it up on Chase's website.
The kicker is probably the interest skyrockets in January 2007. (18%
plus fees up the ying yang.)
>Credit cards can be spawn of the devil if you use them irresponsibly, which I used to.
The key is pay them off each month before the grace period ends. The
credit card companies hate dead beats like me who pay off their
balance before the grace period ends.
Chris Cowles
hoping is you'll think you're going to pay it off but won't, for some
reason. Then you're paying market rates, which are exorbitant.
Some charge a % transfer fee, some charge a % transfer fee with a cap, as in
this case, and some charge no transfer fee for the special deal. If you have
high certainty of paying it off on time, it's a great deal. I took Chase and
others up on these offers and simply stuck the cash in a money market
account and earned interest. The interest more than covered the transfer
fee. (I only do it if the fee is capped.) I pay them back with their own
money before the market rates kick in.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:%231e10qM...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Chris Cowles
irresponsibly...".
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:O%23jxbLd...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
William R Wood
You are right.
Thanks
Bill
"Chris Cowles" <NoS...@For.me> wrote in message
news:u2xynjm0...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
William R Wood
You are right again. I investigated more carefully and do not see any
kicker. Except of course the one you mention about some folks not actually
paying the debt off before the high rates kick in. I am definitely going to
borrow as much as they will let me and buy CDs now that short term rates are
up to a decent level. And I will definitely pay them back the day before
the high rates kick in :)
Thanks again
Bill
"Chris Cowles" <NoS...@For.me> wrote in message
news:%23TN0oim...@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Chris Cowles
rate. Some switch you to a higher rate (I translate "may" to "will") if
you're late on payments on ANY agreement with them, not necessarily on the
account in question. Some switch to a higher rate if you're late on a
payment to ANY vendor, not necessarily them.
They're obviously expecting to trap people with less-than-excellent money
management skills. Bring back the days of usury laws. Some of these banks
oughta get seriously burned.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:uBzmsXn0...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Mark Horn
> I only have 3 Citi
> Dividend cards which gives me $900 cashback per year but that shouldn't
> bother them since I pay the cards in full every month.
(Ears perk up and head tilts) ???
You have 3 citi dividend cards? They let you apply for more than
one? I have one that I maxed out my rebate (and pay off my balance
every month). I went and got a chase card that had the same deal.
I'd have rather stayed with citi.
William R Wood
Yes we have 3 Citi Dividend cards, each with about $6K credit limit. They
will divide your total credit limit equally among your cards if you request
that. We use each card for about 4 months a year. As soon as the $300
annual cashback limit is hit on the first card, we switch to the next card.
That way we keep getting cashback awards all year. So far it looks like 3
cards is enough for our spending level. Some people might need 4-5 or even
more cards to cover a whole year. Citi will give you as many cards as your
credit rating supports. I told them their setup is wacky. Why not just
increase the annual cashback limit so we can use just one card. They said
they were thinking about it but so far the limit is still $300 so we have no
choice but to use multiple cards.
I also tried a Chase card which sounded like the Citi Dividend card until I
actually got the Chase card and read all the fine print. The Chase card had
tiers as I recall that limited cashback awards and was not nearly as good a
deal as the Citi card so I cancelled it without ever using it.
The fine print on the Chase card we tried is why I was leery about the 0%
offers other folks have mentioned in this thread. I am definitely looking
into the 0% deals and if they really check out after I study the fine print
and do the actual math, I will borrow as much as they will give me and buy a
CD or just put the money in a money market account and pay them back with
their own money. I use ING Direct, an internet only bank, to store cash and
they now pay 4.2% on a 12 month CD and 3.4% on money market accounts with no
minimum balance or fees.
Regards
Bill Wood
"Mark Horn" <ma...@hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrndl5ma...@home.hornclan.com...
Mark Horn
> I also tried a Chase card which sounded like the Citi Dividend card until I
> actually got the Chase card and read all the fine print. The Chase card had
> tiers as I recall that limited cashback awards and was not nearly as good a
> deal as the Citi card so I cancelled it without ever using it.
There is a chase card that does that, but I'm pretty sure that it's
not the one that I have. I read the fine print, but of course I
could have missed or misunderstood something. Here's the card that
I have:
Here's the fine print on the rewards:
http://www.firstusa.com/xcards4/ccards/chase_cashplus_ch01/CashPlusBrochure.pdf
That being said, I may simply call Citi and ask them to open up
another card for me and cancel the chase card. I only need one more.
On the other hand, opening up a chase card, using it for a couple
of months then closing it, followed by opening up another citi
card may have a deliterious impact to my credit score. I think
I'll only do that if the chase card turns out to be significantly
different than the citi card.
> I am definitely looking
> into the 0% deals and if they really check out after I study the fine print
> and do the actual math, I will borrow as much as they will give me and buy a
> CD or just put the money in a money market account and pay them back with
> their own money.
There are lots of people trying this. Here are some examples:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/01/pf/rp_tong/index.htm
http://arbyte.us/blog_archive/2005/10/Arbitrage_BT.html
http://savvysaver.blogspot.com/2005/09/app-o-rama.html
This appears to work. Personally, it requires a level of tracking
that I'm not willing to take on. Additionally, having read the
fine print of my credit cards, I know that anytime I miss a payment
anywhere on anything, it may impact the fee structure & interest
rate on any balance that I carry. I think it's just simpler and
lower risk not to carry any balance.
> I use ING Direct, an internet only bank, to store cash and
> they now pay 4.2% on a 12 month CD and 3.4% on money market accounts with no
> minimum balance or fees.
I've just started with Emigrant Direct. They pay 4% on money market
accounts (also no min balance and no fees).
William R Wood
Your Chase card looks good to me - appears to be exactly like my Citi
Dividend. Your Chase card is definitely better than the Chase card I had.
Personally I don't see any reason for you to get another Citi card since
your Chase card looks fine and you already have it.
Opening and closing cards does not adversely affect your credit score from
what I have read. Plus I have opened and cancelled a ton of credit cards
and my score is still fine. What does hurt is having too many open cards
with untapped credit.
You may be right about the hassle of maintaining one of these 0% loan
maneuvers. Unless they really let me borrow a lot of money so that the work
is justified, I will forget it. A small loan, say $10K would only produce
about $400 interest in a year. No way am I going to all that effort for
$400. I'm not worried about missing payments however because I have all of
our bills on autopay from our credit card or checking account. I really
love autopay.
Thanks for the tip on Emigrant Direct. I checked their website and it looks
like they are doing ING one better.
http://www.emigrantdirect.com/
I love competition.
Regards
Bill
"Mark Horn" <ma...@hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrndl7ch...@home.hornclan.com...
Unknown
>
> That's not fishy at all. I get them from chase all the time. The last
> time I took advantage of one
> was in July. I transferred the last $12,000 of a max high of $52,000 to a
> 0% Chase card that is 0%
> through next September. It's now down to $8,500 left. It's a beautiful
> thing to see every dollar of
> a $1000 monthly payment go towards the principle. To get the balances
> down so quickly, I got several
> transfer offers that were 2.8% until the balance was paid off. For me,
> low interest cards, and
> setting everything up on auto-payment were the key.
$52K! Wow that must have made sound sleep a little difficult :)
> Oh yeah, and not using the damn things anymore.
>
> Credit cards can be spawn of the devil if you use them irresponsibly,
> which I used to.
Now here I disagree; I say use credit cards for everything possible!! Just
pay the bill in full each month or use one of the 0% APR deals that you have
obviously mastered :)
Credit cards are a powerful tool for responsible consumers. Use a cashback
or other reward card and let the credit card pay you to borrow money from
them for FREE most of the year. Since most cards give you a 21 day grace
period, you can finance your entire life on free credit for 75% of every
year forever. And the card will pay you to do it. With the 3 Citi Dividend
cards we have I am getting almost $900 cashback per year. Most of our bills
are on auto pay from the credit card and the credit cards are on auto pay
from our checking account. We buy food, clothes, gas, drugs, and everything
else possible on the card in addition to the auto paid bills. The Citi card
pays 5% on groceries, gas and drugs and 1% on everything else. I have never
paid a penny in finance charges or other fees, since we pay every bill in
full each month. Plus the credit card protects you if you have a problem
with a vendor. You can reverse the charge if you get screwed. This has
saved me a lot of pain the few times that I had to use it.
Regards
Bill Wood
.
.
Oh yeah, I now use credit cards all the time. I only meant that people that are trying to pay off
large balances on them should stop using them. Until you can pay them off every month and keep a 0
balance, the best thing is to stop using them and live off cash until they're paid off. The best
thing about this is it forces you to learn to live within your means so when they are paid off, you
won't just run them up again. As far as the rewards cards, some of them are a scam. We use our
Aadvantage citi card for my wife's practice, and have already used 3 free tickets from it. But some
of the rewards programs are a scam. Like the Amex one for instance. It costs $105 per year for card
membership and the rewards program. I've been in the program like 10 years or so and have something
like 50,000 points. I've spent over $1,000, and only have enough points to buy something worth about
$400. Not a good deal. I'm going to finally buy something, and then probably cancel the Amex Green
card. I don't need to pay someone for the priviledge of paying them even more money.
Unknown
Regards
Bill Wood
Bill - have you checked out www.Emigrant-direct.com bank? They have a 4% SAVINGS account! with no
fees. You can get 4% and still stay completely liquid. And also with no fees, no minimums.
William R Wood
snip
>
> Bill - have you checked out www.Emigrant-direct.com bank? They have a 4%
> SAVINGS account! with no
> fees. You can get 4% and still stay completely liquid. And also with no
> fees, no minimums.
> Vasiliy Zaitsev
> PGP Key: 0xF8F5619A
Vasiliy,
Yes and thanks. I just heard about this bank this morning from Mark Horn.
I will be opening an account there right away - 4% for liquid funds is a
heck of a deal.
Regards
Bill
Mark Horn
> Personally I don't see any reason for you to get another Citi card since
> your Chase card looks fine and you already have it.
I prefer the citi web site much more than the chase web site.
The former is easier to navigate, which is something I have to do
every time I pay my bill (see below).
> I'm not worried about missing payments however because I have all of
> our bills on autopay from our credit card or checking account. I really
> love autopay.
I normally pay everything on time, but I have missed at least once
in the past 5 years. That miss rate makes me very nervous with
things like 0% balance transfers where 0% could suddenly become 24%.
I personally avoid autopay. I much prefer to manually initiate all
of my payments. I'm not quite at the trust level of letting other
people decide when they want to extract money from my accounts.
I'd much rather be in control of that. I have some services that
require autopay so I grudgingly use it. In general, if a service
offers me autopay as an option, I don't take it. But I have many
friends who love it. Different strokes.
> I love competition.
Amen!
Chris Cowles
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:%236IFwDz...@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> You may be right about the hassle of maintaining one of these 0% loan
> maneuvers. Unless they really let me borrow a lot of money so that the
> work is justified, I will forget it. A small loan, say $10K would only
> produce about $400 interest in a year. No way am I going to all that
> effort for $400. I'm not worried about missing payments however because I
> have all of our bills on autopay from our credit card or checking account.
> I really love autopay.
It might take you a total of 2 hours to get it all set up. I'd like to make
$200 per hour.
William R Wood
"Chris Cowles" <NoS...@For.me> wrote in message
Good point! Maybe I should reconsider. I guess I am also counting the
worry factor and the fine print about the card issuer having the ability to
change the terms of the deal which might force me to pay off the loan early.
I don't really understand what they can get away with, if anything, by way
of changing the rules mid-deal. I'm still thinking about it and will
investigate further as soon as I get time.
Regards,
Bill Wood
William R Wood
Mark,
I felt the same way about autopay when I first heard about it but, as I now
see it, autopay does not mean you are giving up any control whatsoever.
What you are actually doing is shifting the responsibility for timely
payment from yourself to the creditor. And that is very good for us
consumers. You still control payment because you are the one who
authorizes the arrangement and you have the ability to cancel or change it
at any time, no questions asked. Plus the creditor does not have authority
to extract money from your accounts when they want - their authority is
limited to the payment amount (which you can challenge if necessary) on
their prior written statement to be charged against your account no earlier
than the specified due date. This means that your creditors are paid on the
last day possible which allows you to earn interest on your money right up
to the last second. And if the creditor pays itself late, that's their
problem, not yours :) I have been using autopay for many years and have
never had a creditor misuse the arrangement in any way. My finances pretty
much run themselves and all I have to do is make sure our checking account
has enough money in it to cover the autopays. This is pretty much automatic
as well since I use automatic direct deposits to cover that :)
Its almost magical how it works: various people put money in my checking
account automatically and other people take it out (hopefully leaving me a
little left over). The only thing I have to do is click "Update Now" in
Money and check to make sure everything is going as planned. I don't write
any checks, no stamps, no envelopes, no reminders, no hassles. I love the
internet.
Regards
Bill
Mark Horn
When I say "autopay" I mean that (for example) my VoIP provider has
my credit card and bills my credit card on their billing schedule.
I find this to be an incredible hassle. The vendors don't seem to
have fixed dates. They're relatively fixed, but the jump around
because of weekends and holidays.
The problem that I have with this is accounting for it in Money.
It's been my experience that transaction downloads for transactions
that are scheduled bills match exceptionally poorly unless they're
already entered into the register. What this means is that I
have to manually enter every single one of my autopays before I
get the transaction d/l. This is one of the most annoying things
about autopays. When do I manually enter the bill in Money so that
my transaction download will work? And since I have to manually
enter the bill anyway, why not just do a manual EPAY?
Suffice it to say, I'd rather be in control of the dates and times
that transactions get entered into my Money register. I'd rather
not have a vendor decide that the 15th lands on a Monday holiday
so they're going to move it up to 12th.
I'd be interested in knowing how you've got everything set up so
that it works seemlessly. Because my experience with autopays is
that they're more hassle than manually initiated EPAYs.
Chris Cowles
> When I say "autopay" I mean that (for example) my VoIP provider has
> my credit card and bills my credit card on their billing schedule.
> I find this to be an incredible hassle. The vendors don't seem to
> have fixed dates. They're relatively fixed, but the jump around
> because of weekends and holidays.
As does the payments you initiate, I imagine.
If you don't set them up for auto entry into Money, and you download
statements, Money generally matches the downloaded transaction to the one in
your schedule and records it for you on the correct date. I find it
painless, and the date variation harmless.
Neighbor
Between the lines, I learn more than what I initially asked.
I decided to max out the credit line with my Chase Card.
Thank all your folks!
Mark Horn
>> They're relatively fixed, but the jump around
>> because of weekends and holidays.
>
> As does the payments you initiate, I imagine.
True. But the difference is that I'm in control. I never have to
worry about the payment not being in the register when I receive
the downloaded transaction.
> If you don't set them up for auto entry into Money, and you download
> statements, Money generally matches the downloaded transaction to the one in
> your schedule and records it for you on the correct date. I find it
> painless, and the date variation harmless.
I don't worry about the date variation. But I've run into troubles
with downloaded transactions *NOT* matching a scheduled transaction.
And then the budget gets completely screwed up. I've had it happen
where I downloaded a transaction that did not match the scheduled
transaction, so I enter the scheduled transaction after the d/l
transaction and now my budget thinks that I planned on spending twice
as much in that particular category. I've had so much pain with
that in the past that I don't mess around with it anymore. I make
sure that my scheduled transactions are entered into my register
*BEFORE* I d/l the transaction and all is well. Autopays make that
hard because I'm not in control. EPAYs leave me in control.
Mark Horn
>> I find it
>> painless, and the date variation harmless.
>
> I don't worry about the date variation.
Oops. I got confused and was thinking of something else. I do
worry about the date variation. Not knowing exactly what date
something is going to happen makes hit hard to anticipate when to
pre-enter autopay transactions.
Mark Horn
> They're obviously expecting to trap people with less-than-excellent money
> management skills. Bring back the days of usury laws. Some of these banks
> oughta get seriously burned.
Oh, geez, no. Don't do that. That's a recipe for disaster.
When the market defines how much you have to pay in interest in
order to get deposits, but a law caps how much you can charge in loan
interest, the entire economy is ripe for trouble.
Throw in a little inflation and suddenly, you've got a situation
where it costs a bank more to take a deposit than they can recover
in any loans. Banks will simply cease lending money, exacerbating
inflation (the supply of money is down so the cost of everything
will go up). This was bad when we went through it in the 70's.
I don't want to see it again.
William R Wood
> On 2005-10-17, William R Wood <w.w...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Its almost magical how it works: various people put money in my checking
>> account automatically and other people take it out (hopefully leaving me
>> a
>> little left over). The only thing I have to do is click "Update Now" in
>> Money and check to make sure everything is going as planned. I don't
>> write
>> any checks, no stamps, no envelopes, no reminders, no hassles. I love
>> the
>> internet.
>
> When I say "autopay" I mean that (for example) my VoIP provider has
> my credit card and bills my credit card on their billing schedule.
> I find this to be an incredible hassle. The vendors don't seem to
> have fixed dates. They're relatively fixed, but the jump around
> because of weekends and holidays.
I have Vonage for VoIP and they do exactly what you say. I don't see any
issue at all with payment dates. They do jump around a little but I don't
care.
>
> The problem that I have with this is accounting for it in Money.
> It's been my experience that transaction downloads for transactions
> that are scheduled bills match exceptionally poorly unless they're
> already entered into the register. What this means is that I
> have to manually enter every single one of my autopays before I
> get the transaction d/l. This is one of the most annoying things
> about autopays. When do I manually enter the bill in Money so that
> my transaction download will work?
Virtually all of our expenses including Vonage are scheduled bills in Money.
I do enter scheduled payments into the Money register (right click the bill
and choose Enter Into Register which takes 3 mouse clicks) about 3-4 weeks
early because I want to see the effect of the bills on my bank balance in
advance. I don't recall any problems with matching downloads. I do have
some occasional mismatches but I don't care, I just fix them.
> And since I have to manually
> enter the bill anyway, why not just do a manual EPAY?
Because shifting responsibility for timely payment to the creditor is far
more important to me. Plus I like to pre-enter scheduled Bills and Deposits
into the register which must be done manually. Plus EPAYS are much more
work than entering scheduled transactions into the register.
>
> Suffice it to say, I'd rather be in control of the dates and times
> that transactions get entered into my Money register. I'd rather
> not have a vendor decide that the 15th lands on a Monday holiday
> so they're going to move it up to 12th.
I see your point but I don't understand why you feel this way. What counts
is getting the bill paid on time and you are placing that burden on yourself
when the creditor will accept that responsibility for free and they pay
themselves at the last minute which you cannot afford to do due to the risk
of late payment.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing how you've got everything set up so
> that it works seemlessly. Because my experience with autopays is
> that they're more hassle than manually initiated EPAYs.
What works seamlessly is the automatic payments which are what counts. My
bills are always paid on time and I have zero risk of late payment. If I
have to fiddle with a date or some mismatch I don't care. I don't really
remember any such problems but if they crop up I would just fix them and
forget it. Basically Money matches my downloads perfectly whether I enter
them into the register myself or not.
I agree that user initiated EPAYS are easy but there is no way that is any
easier than what I do which is pre-enter scheduled bills and click Update
Now to download transaction data. EPAYS, if we are talking about the same
thing, mean I log onto my bank's website, click Bill Payments, click the
list of pre-defined payees, find the creditor in the list, type the amount
and date and click send. All that definitely takes way longer that what I
do in Money.
But, and this is only my opinion of course, the details of execution between
EPAYS and autopays are irrelevant to me. I want to shift payment timing
responsibility to my creditors and that's why autopay is so valuable. I
would do autopay even if it was 10 times the trouble of EPAY. You are
obviously a careful guy and can handle the payment timing. I want to be
able to ignore payment timing and worry about having fun :) I can leave and
go camping or take a trip to Colorado or whatever at the drop of a hat and
not worry about bills getting paid.
William R Wood
You might try this again sometime if you feel like fiddling. I definitely
do not have to pre-enter scheduled bills that are on autopay into the Money
register. Money sees them in the list of scheduled bills and matches them
perfectly to downloads and the scheduled bill is then marked as paid in
Bills and Deposits.
Regards
Bill Wood
William R Wood
> On 2005-10-17, Chris Cowles <NoS...@For.me> wrote:
>>> They're relatively fixed, but the jump around
>>> because of weekends and holidays.
>>
>> As does the payments you initiate, I imagine.
>
> True. But the difference is that I'm in control. I never have to
> worry about the payment not being in the register when I receive
> the downloaded transaction.
This I don't understand. If I do not pre-enter scheduled bills, Money still
sees them and matches them to my downloads. In other words the transaction
does not have to be in the register to get matched.
>
>> If you don't set them up for auto entry into Money, and you download
>> statements, Money generally matches the downloaded transaction to the one
>> in
>> your schedule and records it for you on the correct date. I find it
>> painless, and the date variation harmless.
>
> I don't worry about the date variation. But I've run into troubles
> with downloaded transactions *NOT* matching a scheduled transaction.
> And then the budget gets completely screwed up. I've had it happen
> where I downloaded a transaction that did not match the scheduled
> transaction, so I enter the scheduled transaction after the d/l
> transaction and now my budget thinks that I planned on spending twice
> as much in that particular category. I've had so much pain with
> that in the past that I don't mess around with it anymore. I make
> sure that my scheduled transactions are entered into my register
> *BEFORE* I d/l the transaction and all is well. Autopays make that
> hard because I'm not in control. EPAYs leave me in control.
I never had this happen that I can remember. But I would not enter a
scheduled transaction after it failed to get matched by a downloaded
transaction since that obviously would create a duplicate or if I did I
would delete the downloaded one. Wait a minute, maybe I do remember
this happening when I first setup new scheduled items. I think
this goes away, however, if you let Money download the transactions a few
more times. Money learns what to do somehow.
Regards
Bill
Chris Cowles
"William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:uzSsoaL1...@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>
> I see your point but I don't understand why you feel this way. What
> counts is getting the bill paid on time and you are placing that burden on
> yourself when the creditor will accept that responsibility for free and
> they pay themselves at the last minute which you cannot afford to do due
> to the risk of late payment.
I concur. So what if it's 2 days earlier that you thought it might be? Does
that mean $0.07 lost interest? I don't stretch my finances so tight that I'm
worried about a bill arriving a day or two early, or a deposit arriving a
day or two late. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm
privileged to have enough slack in my checking account to do that. Others
are not so fortunate.
> What works seamlessly is the automatic payments which are what counts. My
> bills are always paid on time and I have zero risk of late payment.
I concur. The penalty of a payment being one day late far outweighs any
interest or control losses of letting it happen automatically. Besides, the
vendor TELLS YOU IN ADVANCE when it's going to post.
> I agree that user initiated EPAYS are easy but there is no way that is any
> easier than what I do which is pre-enter scheduled bills and click Update
> Now to download transaction data. EPAYS, if we are talking about the same
> thing, mean I log onto my bank's website, click Bill Payments, click the
> list of pre-defined payees, find the creditor in the list, type the amount
> and date and click send. All that definitely takes way longer that what I
> do in Money.
ePay can mean simply entering a transaction into your register, even
automatically from the bill schedule. That assumes your bank supports direct
bill payment from Money, which mine does. That's much simpler that what you
describe. It sounds like Mark's does, too, although I do not agree with his
apparent concern about the bill schedule. However, that's Mark's checking
account, not mine, and he can pay his bills however makes him most
comfortable. Personally, I don't want to waste the anxiety. I have plenty of
other things to expend effort on.
William R Wood
"Chris Cowles" <NoS...@For.me> wrote in message
>
snip
>
>> I agree that user initiated EPAYS are easy but there is no way that is
>> any easier than what I do which is pre-enter scheduled bills and click
>> Update Now to download transaction data. EPAYS, if we are talking about
>> the same thing, mean I log onto my bank's website, click Bill Payments,
>> click the list of pre-defined payees, find the creditor in the list, type
>> the amount and date and click send. All that definitely takes way longer
>> that what I do in Money.
>
> ePay can mean simply entering a transaction into your register, even
> automatically from the bill schedule. That assumes your bank supports
> direct bill payment from Money, which mine does. That's much simpler that
> what you describe. It sounds like Mark's does, too, although I do not
> agree with his apparent concern about the bill schedule. However, that's
> Mark's checking account, not mine, and he can pay his bills however makes
> him most comfortable. Personally, I don't want to waste the anxiety. I
> have plenty of other things to expend effort on.
> --
> Chris Cowles
> Gainesville, FL
>
>
>
Chris,
I think you are right about Mark's EPAY being more automatic now that you
mention it. My bank does not support direct bill payment so I have to do it
manually. I don't really mind manual billpay since I only use it rarely -
only when payees refuse to take a credit card - but direct billpay would be
much easier than what I described.
By the way I want to thank you for the heads up about the Cash Flow Forecast
tool in Money. I have been fooling with it today and it actually appears to
work. It looks so good that I can now terminate my current practice of
pre-entering my scheduled bills and deposits into the register 3-4 weeks
early which lets me see my projected cash balances in advance. Using the
Cash Flow tool instead will save me quite a bit of work and also help my
wife who is a little confused by the pre-entering concept. I have been
teaching Janet how to run Money so she is not lost when I drop dead one of
these days :)
Regards,
Bill Wood
Chris Cowles
>
> By the way I want to thank you for the heads up about the Cash Flow
> Forecast tool in Money.
Actually, it was Dick who clarified for both of us how to make it work
right, but you're welcome.
If your real email is w.w...@cox.net, I strongly suggest you change that in
your newsreader setup. You're a sitting duck for spambots that harvest email
address from newsgroups. If OE, for example, use Tools> Accounts> (pick
account)> Properties> Email Address. Change it to something like
w.woodremo...@cox.net to obscure your real address somewhat, or make
it totally bogus. Spambots may have gotten intelligent enough to remove the
garbage automatically, but I doubt it.
William R Wood
"Chris Cowles" <NoS...@For.me> wrote in message
>
> "William R Wood" <w.w...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:OpGLbTS1...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>
>> By the way I want to thank you for the heads up about the Cash Flow
>> Forecast tool in Money.
>
> Actually, it was Dick who clarified for both of us how to make it work
> right, but you're welcome.
Yes, Dick's info was very helpful too and I want to thank him as well.
>
> If your real email is w.w...@cox.net, I strongly suggest you change that
> in your newsreader setup. You're a sitting duck for spambots that harvest
> email address from newsgroups. If OE, for example, use Tools> Accounts>
> (pick account)> Properties> Email Address. Change it to something like
> w.woodremo...@cox.net to obscure your real address somewhat, or
> make it totally bogus. Spambots may have gotten intelligent enough to
> remove the garbage automatically, but I doubt it.
>
Good point. I changed it.
Thanks
Bill
Mark Horn
> I concur. So what if it's 2 days earlier that you thought it might be? Does
> that mean $0.07 lost interest?
No. What it's meant in the past is a screwed up budget. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.money/msg/6d834bdb57f961a2
Occasionally, I forget about one of my autopays and I end up
experiencing this problem all over again. And my only solution
is to be in complete control of when entries get put into my
register. I'd really like to know exactly how to do it so that
I don't experience this problem. I'm not theoretically opposed
to autopays. I just can't figure out how to get them to work for
me without completely screwing up my financial tracking system.
> ePay can mean simply entering a transaction into your register, even
> automatically from the bill schedule. That assumes your bank supports direct
> bill payment from Money, which mine does. That's much simpler that what you
> describe. It sounds like Mark's does, too
Yes. That's correct.
Mark Horn
> that mean $0.07 lost interest?
No. It means a screwed up budget. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.money/msg/6d834bdb57f961a2
Every so often I forget about one of my autopays and I'm
re-introduced to this problem. That being said, I'm not
fundamentally opposed to autopays. I just can't figure out how to
get them to work for me without screwing up my financial tracking
software. I'd love to hear how to get it to work so that I can avoid
the problems that I'm experiencing. Up to this point, the only way
to avoid the problem is to maintain as much control as possible.
But I'm open to other ways of getting it to work.
> ePay can mean simply entering a transaction into your register, even
> automatically from the bill schedule. That assumes your bank supports direct
> bill payment from Money, which mine does. That's much simpler that what you
> describe. It sounds like Mark's does, too
That's correct.
Unknown
> I love competition.
Amen!
.
.
When I say autopay, I mean autoPAY, not autoDRAFT which is what you're concerned about. What you are
concerned about is others automatically drafting money from your account. I don't much like that
either. By autopay, I mean what Chase allows doing, or if you have MS Money, you can do it inside
there as well. I had (there's just one left now, hurray!) all my credit card companies setup as
Payees, and can schedule how much and when the payments were sent to them. If you are going to be
short one month or have an emergency come up, you just go in and change it to send a different day. I
schedule the payments about 10 days ahead of time, and you'll never have to worry about another late
payment. One caution: still check the statements every month. I got a late payment on one of them
once, and found that it was because they suddenly decided to move my due date up about a week.
Bastards. I didn't get my rate jacked up because of it, but I had to call them to get it refunded,
which wasted about an hour of my life that I will never get back.
As an aside, if you want to get out of debt fast, and have multiple accounts, this is a great way to
do it. Set up the minimum, or a little bit more, to every account except the ones with the highest
interest rate. That one, you send as much extra as you can afford. Then when that one's paid down,
you take the amount you were paying them, and add it to the one with the next highest interest rate,
etc. When you're down to the last one or two cards, your payment will be very large because it will
be an accumulation of all the other payments from all the other cards that are now paid off. The
great thing is that this gets them paid off very quickly, and your current total monthly payment can
stay constant until they are all paid off.
William R Wood
<snip>
Vasiliy,
Just for clarification, I am using autoDraft, not autoPay. Autopay, as you
describe it, is virtually worthless to me because it fails to do the main
thing I want - shift the burden of timely payment from me to the creditor.
As you readily admit, the creditor can change a payment due date and mess up
your schedule resulting in a late charge. Then you must get on the phone
and waste time getting the late fee or finance charge removed. Plus other
screwups are possible which could result in late payment and more phone
calls. Plus with autopay, you have to pay early to make sure the creditor
gets paid on time. This means that your money stops earning interest sooner
than necessary. These says Emigrant Direct is paying 4% on money market
accounts. By scheduling your payments 10 days early you are loosing
interest on your money. Ten days interest every month for the rest of your
life adds up to a significant sum you are loosing.
Autodraft is the only solution that always gets your bills paid on time with
zero risk of late payment and it is cost free and risk free. When you
authorize autodraft, the creditor is bound by that authorization which is
limited to payment of a statement that you receive in advance (which gives
you the opportunity to challenge the charges and even revoke payment
authority if necessary) and payment must be made no sooner than the due
date. Late payment is the creditor's problem, not yours. The result it
that your bills get paid at the latest possible time for free without risk
to you and you earn interest on your funds for a longer period each month.
Think about it and you will get rid of autopay and switch to autodraft :)
Autodraft works, I have been using it for many years with absolutely zero
problems. In fact I am now in the process of setting up my 3rd Citi
Dividend Card for autodraft from our checking account.
Regards,
Bill Wood
Fountain Hills, AZ
Chris Cowles
"William R Wood" <secret@???.net> wrote in message
news:epA0gJx1...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>
> Autodraft is the only solution that always gets your bills paid on time
> with zero risk of late payment and it is cost free and risk free. When
> you authorize autodraft, the creditor is bound by that authorization which
> is limited to payment of a statement that you receive in advance (which
> gives you the opportunity to challenge the charges and even revoke payment
> authority if necessary) and payment must be made no sooner than the due
> date.
The authorization you sign probably grants authority for the creditor to
change the payment date. That said, I strikes me that concern about the
exactitude of the payment schedule is exaggerated. We're talking about
credit cards here, and the creditor always puts the payment due date on the
printed statement you receive every month, well in advance of the payment
date. (Some may choose not to receive paper, but the information is
available to you one way or another.)
In fact, my experience is quite the opposite of the early draft that people
seem to fear. A couple of my cards post a credit to my account on the due
date. But what's happening is that's when they actually initiate the draft
from my checking account. Bureaucracies being what they are, the draft
doesn't post to my checking account for a few days, meaning *I* get the
benefit of the float. If I initiated an electronic payment from my checking
account, the opposite would be true.
This horse is dead.
Unknown
Regards,
.
.
.
As far as the interest thing goes, the Emigrant direct is a savings account, I pay bills from my
checking account that pretty much always has a very low balance so the extra 7 days of interest
doesn't add up to much. I put enough money into it to pay all the bills and meet the minimum balance
so I don't pay service fees, and the rest goes into savings.
But I had something happen one time that convinced me to not use autodraft ever again. When I was
with Texas Commerce Bank, they were purchased by Chase Manhattan (like 10 years ago or so) and I had
several autodrafts setup to get an additional 1/2% discount off a car loan. When they made the switch
to the new Chase Manhattan systems, instead of making a $622 draft, they somehow moved the decimal
over and it was a $6220 draft. Oh, it was lots of fun. Drained my checking account, drained my
overdraft protection line of credit ($2000 more) and then everything after that went boing, boing,
boing. They took care of everything, but what a total PITA. Initially, there were $900 in overdraft
fees from the bank, and about $1200 more from the places I wrote checks to. It happend just a few
days after I had paid the rent check (still lived in an apartment in those days), the phone, cell
phone, a few credit cards, electric bill, grocery store, etc. I spent about 2 weeks getting
everything straightened out. This was all in the days before online banking so I didn't even know
about it until I started getting all these returned check notices in the mail.
If you like autodraft better, it's a good idea for a lot of people. But for me, I like to say when I
send a payment to someone.