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Aaron Wood  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 10:12 am
From: Aaron Wood <freshinkcreat...@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 07:12:34 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 10:12 am
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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I agree with regards to a universal contextual help icon. What about a question mark? That seems to be pretty much universal.

 
Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director
The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

the end of May (after the 2.5.5 release).
>>>>Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots

you posted in your forum.
>>>>Getting a full branch to test made the difference.

>>>>I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are

in many respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make
them incompatible.
>>>>Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of

code changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd,
including legacy.

>>>>This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to

re-implement an International Menu which had been "forgotten"
when the joomla.org family of sites design was revamped.

>>>>My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with
your branch.
>>>>You should not dismiss them though too fast.
>>>>CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make

bluestork usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now
have some experience to share.

>>>>Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an

implementation can anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few
words.

>>>>I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain

to you with screenshots where I think are the main culprits +
suggesting some improvements.

>>>>If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with
details.

>>>>Friendly

>>>>JM

>>>>Hi Kyle,

>>>>Cool. Overall CMS related communication

takes place on the CMS and JBS lists .   So I'm glad you've
now made your first (I think ) foray into the world where your
 work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never
thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had.
It's really important that the people who will in the end have
responsibility for long term maintenance get to know the code. 
 Probably you will want to listen for feed back on the general
list too since the admin templates has big implications for the
independent developer community and of course anything that touches
core outputs.  Most important I think is to get something into
the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can try it out
and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to subscribe to
the issue report with the work since that way you will get email with
each comment.

>>>>There is a great community out there that

will do testing in all kinds of settings including every language and
every kind of assistive device you can think of.

>>>>Of course there are months to go and no

one expects that what you have now is ready for prime time, but early
feed back is way better than later feed back so let's go for
it. 

>>>>>I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5

site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the
sooner we have things to  test the sooner we can start coding and
testing out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option
to switch templates. 

>>>>>Elin

>>>>>On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter
wrote:

>>>>>Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware

of this post (how are you btw, been a while :)
>>>>>To your points, yes it's still very much under

construction and lots left to do. So far it's been just me but I've
made lots of progress in a short while. My plan is to do a 1st round
of updates on everything to get the markup standardized and the new
template built, then make rounds (and rounds) of UX improvements, test
accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.

>>>>>I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter,

skype and in the ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive  feedback
from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to
update their components and completely standardize them), template
developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this
feedback https://twitter.com/# !/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen
unified excitement like that in our community before.

>>>>>Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about

design. I can guarantee you that all aspects of usability and
experience will be improved and that the most modern and effect UX
design patterns and styles are being applied here.

>>>>>If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always

around and up for it in any of these channels:
>>>>>http://ux.joomla.org/forum
>>>>>https://twitter.com/#!/ kyleledbetter
>>>>>skype: pixelpraise
>>>>>email: kyle.ledbetter <at> community.joomla.org

>>>>>Hope all is well on your end and looking forward to

working together to deliver this exciting new experience

toolbar broken, Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items
associations, etc.)

>>>>>>Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally
speaking.

>>>>>>1. This template's name should be called "Scroller"

instead of "Strapped"  ( ;-)  ), for the need to
scroll all over the UI is so important that we immediately feel the
urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the scrolls there
were sometimes important but not systematic.

>>>>>>2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on

left with a fixed width is creating many issues.
>>>>>>Even in English, andat fortiori in other

languages, the labels occupy 2 or more lines for some.
>>>>>>This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns

heads of the Managers.
>>>>>>The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in
English.

>>>>>>3. No RTL consideration at all for now

>>>>>>4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons.

Colour is an important bonus for usability.

>>>>>>5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for

everything == lost of time

>>>>>>I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change
these issues.

>>>>>>Feedback welcome.

>>>>>>JM

>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>Please

keep the Subject wording in your answers

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>>>>>>------------------------------ -----------------------------
>>>>>>Jean-Marie Simonet 
/  infograf768
>>>>>>Joomla Production Working
group
>>>>>>Joomla! Translation
Coordination Team 

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...

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JM Simonet  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 1:08 pm
From: JM Simonet <infograf...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:08:48 +0200
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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>Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on
>twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is
>more room :)

I have seen this, Kyle. Nice.
As I already told you, I do not Tweet.
I am keeping an eye on your branch. at least for the Usability issues.

The fixed-width fields and columns is still a big issue, as I
demonstrated to you the other day. As well as the left menu stealing
our real-estate.

BTW: one can't install sample data with your branch

JM
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JM Simonet  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 1:20 pm
From: JM Simonet <infograf...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:20:04 +0200
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 1:20 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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In Spanish it is
¿  ( &#xBF; )
and in some languages, it's not used at all.

JM

At 7:12 -0700 29/04/12, Aaron Wood wrote:

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>Please keep the Subject wording in your answers

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-----------------------------------------------------------
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Aaron Wood  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 1:25 pm
From: Aaron Wood <freshinkcreat...@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:25:48 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 1:25 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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I thought in spanish there was the upside down one before the question, and the regular one after?
    I may be mistaken, spanish class was 20 years ago.
However, you are correct that it is not used in other languages. Having said that, I still think it should be recognizable by most people as a symbol for a question or help.
    This bears thinking upon...

 
Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director
The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

contextual help icon. What about a question mark? That seems to be
pretty much universal.

> 
>Sincerely,
>>Aaron Wood, Creative Director
>The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

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Team 
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Terrance Arthur  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 1:30 pm
From: Terrance Arthur <terryart...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:30:11 -0400
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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Unlike question marks or life preservers a Red Cross has been a universal
symbol for help/aid since 1881.

Terry Arthur

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Aaron Wood <freshinkcreat...@yahoo.com>wrote:


 
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brian teeman  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 3:01 pm
From: brian teeman <jooml...@googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 12:01:50 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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On Sunday, 29 April 2012 18:30:11 UTC+1, terryarthur wrote:

> Unlike question marks or life preservers a Red Cross has been a universal
> symbol for help/aid since 1881.

> Sorry but thats not true the red cross is not a global symbol for help/aid

as can be seen by the correct official name [image: IFRC]<http://www.ifrc.org/en/>


 
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Terrance Arthur  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 4:10 pm
From: Terrance Arthur <terryart...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:10:16 -0400
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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@Brian,

I'm afraid your knowledge of Joomla! far exceeds you understanding of the
ICRC. It would have saved both of us some time if you had simply researched
you reply prior to dismissing my suggestion.

The ICRC is part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement
and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies so
that is not it's proper name.  To quote Wikipedia "The ICRC is the oldest
and most honored organization within the IRC and one of the most widely
recognized organizations in the world, having won three Nobel Peace Prizes
in 1917, 1944, and 1963."

I agree you are correct that adding a crescent might make it more universal
but the Red Cross is a universal international symbol and has been since
the 1950's. The Red Cross is recognized by all the signers of the Geneva
Coventions. See this page on the site you referenced
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?ReadForm&id=375&ps=P which is a pretty
exhaustive list of the countries of the world. The Red Cross is
specifically named in article 9.

So can we agree the cross/crescent symbol would be completely universal?

Terry Arthur

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 3:01 PM, brian teeman <jooml...@googlemail.com>wrote:


 
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brian teeman  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 5:25 pm
From: brian teeman <jooml...@googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:25:41 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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I'm not into arguing or pettiness. the fact is that the red cross is not a
global symbol that would be immediately recognised by everyone in the world
to mean help and assistance which is the whole point of the original
suggestion. I certainly would not recommend adding a crescent ot the cross
to make a universal symbol - if nothing else both of those marks are very
protected symbols and can not be abused


 
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elin  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 5:54 pm
From: elin <elin.war...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:54:05 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 5:54 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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Can we not get into Middle Eastern politics?
Let's see what Kyle comes up.

Elin


 
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brian teeman  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 6:00 pm
From: brian teeman <jooml...@googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 6:00 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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On Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:54:05 UTC+1, elin wrote:

> Can we not get into Middle Eastern politics?

It is nothing to do with the Middle East  - the Red Crescent is not
restricted to the Middle East

> Let's see what Kyle comes up.

I agree 1000%


 
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Terrance Arthur  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 6:10 pm
From: Terrance Arthur <terryart...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:10:26 -0400
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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@Brian, Elin

Ok let's forget about the Red Cross/Red Crescent and just take a look at
ISO 7001? Oh, look the international standard is a cross.

I'm sure Kyle doesn't mind me making suggestions and can speak for himself
if he wants to do all the thinking himself.

Terry

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 6:00 PM, brian teeman <jooml...@googlemail.com>wrote:


 
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elin  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 7:31 pm
From: elin <elin.war...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:31:10 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 7:31 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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Terry,

It's totally fine to make suggestions, what I am suggesting is that we not
get into a flame war about it and the related political and religious
issues or the different uses of these symbols. I, at least, would be
thankful if we do not go down that path.  I also would consider it helpful
if discussions did not include personal comments.

So now we know why people invented the life preserver icon .. it doesn't
use a ? or i and doesn't have religious connotations.

Of course we could use this one ...

http://s3.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/NXcvK.jpg

Elin


 
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Nick Savov  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 7:37 pm
From: "Nick Savov" <n...@iowawebcompany.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:37:01 -0500
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 7:37 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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lol  @ the image :)
~~~


 
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Terrance Arthur  
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 More options Apr 29 2012, 10:32 pm
From: Terrance Arthur <terryart...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:32:46 -0400
Local: Sun, Apr 29 2012 10:32 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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@Elin,

Thanks for the permission to contribute to the list. I'll try to conduct
myself better in the future.

For some reason I had the idea that actual facts were pertinent and should
be articulated but what does the International Standards Organization know
anyway?

Terry

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 5:25 PM, brian teeman <jooml...@googlemail.com>wrote:


 
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JM Simonet  
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 More options Apr 30 2012, 1:21 am
From: JM Simonet <infograf...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 07:21:01 +0200
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 1:21 am
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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Folks,
the present icon in 2.5 is the interrnational
sign for "Life Saver" on life buoys

http://images.search.conduit.com/search?q=life%20buoys%20icon&ctid=CT...

Why reinvent the wheel? ;-)

JM

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Joomla Production Working group
Joomla! Translation Coordination Team

 
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TJ Baker  
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 More options Apr 30 2012, 1:51 am
From: TJ Baker <zaridan....@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:51:31 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 1:51 am
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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Thanks Paulo... What you and others say about space being cramped makes perfect sense..... I concede my opinion :)
I do like your mention of 'breadcrumbs' and that's brought to mind that perhaps we could have 'site title / page title' breadcrumbs in the header, with the titles formatted as typical breadcrumbs might be?......

I'm still hung up on having a large logo/site title with what looks like another large heading in the page title just floating there next to it......

TJ Baker
Team Joomlashack
www.joomlashack.com

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 28, 2012, at 10:13 PM, Paulo Griiettner <griiett...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

read more »


 
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TJ Baker  
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 More options Apr 30 2012, 1:54 am
From: TJ Baker <zaridan....@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:54:47 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 30 2012 1:54 am
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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Ermmmm, I meant I retract my opinion, and concede your points .... :p

TJ Baker
Team Joomlashack
www.joomlashack.com

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 28, 2012, at 10:13 PM, Paulo Griiettner <griiett...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

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Russ Winter  
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 More options May 1 2012, 6:05 pm
From: Russ Winter <winte...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 08:05:22 +1000
Local: Tues, May 1 2012 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
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I agree with JM, the life-saver icon depicts "help" in the non-medical
sense of the word, more so than the Red Cross, in my region, at least, the
Red Cross is primarily used by Medical groups, meaning "Medical Aid" I
don't think it would directly convey the type of "Help" or "assistance"
that we would be conveying to users.

On 30 April 2012 15:54, TJ Baker <zaridan....@gmail.com> wrote:

...

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