Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished parts. (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic.
2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed width is creating many issues. Even in English, and at fortiori in other languages, the labels occupy 2 or more lines for some. This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the Managers. The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
3. No RTL consideration at all for now
4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an important bonus for usability.
5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == lost of time
I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
Feedback welcome.
JM
--
>Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 Joomla Production Working group Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
As far as I know new templates are new features and have to go through the same testing and commenting as anything else. Once something is accepted then the JBS takes over and solves any problems that are found.
It would probably be a good idea to collect some screen shots in various languages that use longer strings since that will also have to be accounted for. If you pass them along then perhaps that team can solve.
This isn't a comment about that specific template (which I can't say I have looked at in depth) but baseline requirements for any template would for me have to include working in RTL working in languages that use long words meet the same accessibility standards (508, etc) that Hathor and Beez meet. I'll leave that to the experts but if someone using only a tracker ball or a screen reader can't use it then I don't think it's okay to ship. But we have months to make things work.
My main concern in general is that no existing site or template break during the move to 3.0.
> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished > parts. > (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, > Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) > Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" > ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we > immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the > scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic. > 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed > width is creating many issues. > Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy > 2 or more lines for some. > This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the > Managers. > The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an > important bonus for usability.
> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == > lost of time
> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
> Feedback welcome.
> JM
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose > or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 > Joomla Production Working group > Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
Might be good to link to the 508 and other accessiblity testing you are speaking about so that folks understand what is expected. I can't remember extensive tracker ball and screen reader testing but even if a few of these items are identified it can be a good jumping off point for those working together on the new templates.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:46 PM, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote: > As far as I know new templates are new features and have to go through the > same testing and commenting as anything else. Once something is accepted > then the JBS takes over and solves any problems that are found.
> It would probably be a good idea to collect some screen shots in various > languages that use longer strings since that will also have to be accounted > for. If you pass them along then perhaps that team can solve.
> This isn't a comment about that specific template (which I can't say I > have looked at in depth) but baseline requirements for any template would > for me have to include > working in RTL > working in languages that use long words > meet the same accessibility standards (508, etc) that Hathor and Beez > meet. I'll leave that to the experts but if someone using only a tracker > ball or a screen reader can't use it then I don't think it's okay to ship. > But we have months to make things work.
> My main concern in general is that no existing site or template break > during the move to 3.0.
> Elin
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:55:04 PM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >> unfinished parts. >> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) >> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >> systematic. >> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a >> fixed width is creating many issues. >> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy >> 2 or more lines for some. >> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >> Managers. >> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >> important bonus for usability.
>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >> lost of time
>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> JM
>> --
>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >> ------------------------------**----------------------------- >> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >> Joomla Production Working group >> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! CMS Development" group. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/Q_K2orkY9-AJ. > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
Usually under an article featured at joomla.org there is a link to
discussion (people.joomla.org), but not this time.
I think this would be quite helpful, as UX team could get impressions
from users.
As I understand, this group and ux.joomla.org is focused on
developers.
On Apr 18, 4:10 am, Amy Stephen <amystep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Might be good to link to the 508 and other accessiblity testing you are
> speaking about so that folks understand what is expected. I can't remember
> extensive tracker ball and screen reader testing but even if a few of these
> items are identified it can be a good jumping off point for those working
> together on the new templates.
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:46 PM, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As far as I know new templates are new features and have to go through the
> > same testing and commenting as anything else. Once something is accepted
> > then the JBS takes over and solves any problems that are found.
> > It would probably be a good idea to collect some screen shots in various
> > languages that use longer strings since that will also have to be accounted
> > for. If you pass them along then perhaps that team can solve.
> > This isn't a comment about that specific template (which I can't say I
> > have looked at in depth) but baseline requirements for any template would
> > for me have to include
> > working in RTL
> > working in languages that use long words
> > meet the same accessibility standards (508, etc) that Hathor and Beez
> > meet. I'll leave that to the experts but if someone using only a tracker
> > ball or a screen reader can't use it then I don't think it's okay to ship.
> > But we have months to make things work.
> > My main concern in general is that no existing site or template break
> > during the move to 3.0.
> > Elin
> > On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:55:04 PM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
> >> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the
> >> unfinished parts.
> >> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken,
> >> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
> >> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
> >> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of
> >> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so
> >> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5
> >> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not
> >> systematic.
> >> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a
> >> fixed width is creating many issues.
> >> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy
> >> 2 or more lines for some.
> >> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the
> >> Managers.
> >> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
> >> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
> >> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an
> >> important bonus for usability.
> >> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything ==
> >> lost of time
> >> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
> >> Feedback welcome.
> >> JM
> >> --
> >> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> >> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not
> >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
> >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
> >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
> >> ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> >> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
> >> Joomla Production Working group
> >> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
> > To view this discussion on the web, visit
> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/Q_K2orkY9-AJ.
> > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
Angie did and does testing with actual users who rely on assistive technology. The results of one round of that were, in fact, we and the idea for and then picked the Hathor project for GSoC in 2009 and have been happily at the forefront of providing access to all to all aspects of web interaction since 1.6 was released.
On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:10:55 PM UTC-4, Amy Stephen wrote:
> Might be good to link to the 508 and other accessiblity testing you are > speaking about so that folks understand what is expected. I can't remember > extensive tracker ball and screen reader testing but even if a few of these > items are identified it can be a good jumping off point for those working > together on the new templates.
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 7:46 PM, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As far as I know new templates are new features and have to go through >> the same testing and commenting as anything else. Once something is >> accepted then the JBS takes over and solves any problems that are found.
>> It would probably be a good idea to collect some screen shots in various >> languages that use longer strings since that will also have to be accounted >> for. If you pass them along then perhaps that team can solve.
>> This isn't a comment about that specific template (which I can't say I >> have looked at in depth) but baseline requirements for any template would >> for me have to include >> working in RTL >> working in languages that use long words >> meet the same accessibility standards (508, etc) that Hathor and Beez >> meet. I'll leave that to the experts but if someone using only a tracker >> ball or a screen reader can't use it then I don't think it's okay to ship. >> But we have months to make things work.
>> My main concern in general is that no existing site or template break >> during the move to 3.0.
>> Elin
>> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:55:04 PM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
>>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >>> unfinished parts. >>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >>> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) >>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >>> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >>> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >>> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >>> systematic. >>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a >>> fixed width is creating many issues. >>> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels >>> occupy 2 or more lines for some. >>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >>> Managers. >>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >>> important bonus for usability.
>>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >>> lost of time
>>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>>> Feedback welcome.
>>> JM
>>> --
>>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >>> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >>> ------------------------------**----------------------------- >>> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >>> Joomla Production Working group >>> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Joomla! CMS Development" group. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/Q_K2orkY9-AJ. >> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post (how are you btw, been a while :) To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to update their components and completely standardize them), template developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community before.
Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being applied here.
> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished > parts. > (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, > Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) > Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" > ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we > immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the > scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic. > 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed > width is creating many issues. > Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy > 2 or more lines for some. > This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the > Managers. > The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an > important bonus for usability.
> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == > lost of time
> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
> Feedback welcome.
> JM
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose > or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 > Joomla Production Working group > Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has big implications for the independent developer community and of course anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get email with each comment.
There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you can think of.
Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later feed back so let's go for it.
I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch templates.
On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post > (how are you btw, been a while :) > To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left > to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short > while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the > markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and > rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the > ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback > from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to > update their components and completely standardize them), template > developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback > https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified > excitement like that in our community before.
> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can > guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved > and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being > applied here.
>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >> unfinished parts. >> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) >> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >> systematic. >> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a >> fixed width is creating many issues. >> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy >> 2 or more lines for some. >> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >> Managers. >> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >> important bonus for usability.
>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >> lost of time
>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> JM
>> --
>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >> Joomla Production Working group >> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation.
We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end of May (after the 2.5.5 release).
Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you posted in your forum.
Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them incompatible.
Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including legacy.
This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family of sites design was revamped.
My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your branch.
You should not dismiss them though too fast.
CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some experience to share.
Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some improvements.
If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
>Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and >JBS lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) >foray into the world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in >directions you never thought about, and in general given a workout >like it never has had. It's really important that the people who >will in the end have responsibility for long term maintenance get to >know the code. Probably you will want to listen for feed back on >the general list too since the admin templates has big implications >for the independent developer community and of course anything that >touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get something >into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can try >it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to >subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will >get email with each comment.
>There is a great community out there that will do testing in all >kinds of settings including every language and every kind of >assistive device you can think of.
>Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you >have now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better >than later feed back so let's go for it.
>I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single >2.5 site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. >So the sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding >and testing out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the >option to switch templates.
>Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this >post (how are you btw, been a while :)
>To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots >left to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress >in a short while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on >everything to get the markup standardized and the new template >built, then make rounds (and rounds) of UX improvements, test >accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
>I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and >in the <http://ux.joomla.org>ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive >overwhelmingly positive feedback from all types of folks, component >developers (who are all onboard to update their components and >completely standardize them), template developers, and end users. To >get a quick pulse check all this >feedback <https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0>https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 >< I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community >before.
>Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I >can guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will >be improved and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns >and styles are being applied here.
>Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >unfinished parts.
>(No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar >broken, Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items >associations, etc.)
>Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >"Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old >1.5 templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but >not systematic.
>2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a >fixed width is creating many issues.
>Even in English, and at fortiori in other languages, the labels >occupy 2 or more lines for some.
>This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of >the Managers.
>The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >important bonus for usability.
>5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything >== lost of time
>I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>Feedback welcome.
>JM
>--
>>Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
>This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are >not the
>intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, >please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
>Joomla Production Working group
>Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
Joomla Production Working group
Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
Obviously the questions for upgraders and new installs are very different. With new installs you can basically make huge changes, although I would opt to give people the option of switching to the old look at least for 3.0, maybe not offering the old look at all by 3.5. (Kind of like Ubuntu gave you an easy way to switch back to Gnome desktop initially but now you need to install it if you want it).
We're definitely going to have to have overrides one way or another since we shouldn't break existing templates for people upgrading. Some of us had informally discussed switching to the Hathor layouts except for the button for the filter bars since they are better than the core layouts in a number of ways (having benefited from coming after the core ones were done).
I'm wondering if we can do something for upgrading users like what Google does with it's "this is the new design do you want to go back to the old one?" question for people who are using Bluestork (and for Hathor assuming the new meets all the Hathor standards). For people with other admin templates this will be particularly important, in fact for 3.0 we might start with a 'this is the old design do you want to try the new" question and then switch the question to "this is new do you want to go back to old?", and then by 3.5 we stop shipping the old but offer downloads.
On Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:57:27 AM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
> Hello Kyle,
> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation. > We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end of > May (after the 2.5.5 release). > Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you > posted in your forum. > Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many > respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them > incompatible. > Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code > changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including > legacy.
> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an > International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family > of sites design was revamped.
> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your > branch. > You should not dismiss them though too fast. > CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork > usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some > experience to share.
> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can > anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you > with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some > improvements.
> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
> Friendly
> JM
> Hi Kyle,
> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS > lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the > world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never > thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's > really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility > for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to > listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has > big implications for the independent developer community and of course > anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get > something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can > try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to > subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get > email with each comment.
> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of > settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you > can think of.
> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have now > is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later feed > back so let's go for it.
> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 > site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the > sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing > out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch > templates.
> Elin
> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post > (how are you btw, been a while :)
> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left > to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short > while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the > markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and > rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the > ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback > from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to > update their components and completely standardize them), template > developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback > https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified > excitement like that in our community before.
> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can > guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved > and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being > applied here.
> If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always around and up for > it in any of these channels:
> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished > parts.
> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, > Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" > ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we > immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the > scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic.
> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed > width is creating many issues.
> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy > 2 or more lines for some.
> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the > Managers.
> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an > important bonus for usability.
> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == > lost of time
> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
> Feedback welcome.
> JM
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not > disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! CMS Development" group. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/z1RkcUZG5EUJ. > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose > or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 > Joomla Production Working group > Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
It's going to be impossible to use Kyle's work and maintain 100% B/C to 2.5.
Kyle's had to touch a lot of Platform files to change the HTML markup to
follow suit with Bootstrap's standards. That said, it would be possible to
update both Bluestork and Hathor's CSS to cope with this, but for say
AdminPraise (I know, bad example considering who the project is run by),
they'd have to have a 2.5 and 3.0 version because of the changes in the
HTML. And Bluestork and Hathor both won't carry over a 100% similar look
since there are some changes in the markup to cope with.
Part of the goal is to standardize the CSS if I'm not mistaken. Maybe this
would be a good way to show that it's possible to use non-Bootstrap
templates with the new markup by following a standard CSS so that it's
easier to install new templates.
From: elin <elin.war...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:37 PM
To: <joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback
Obviously the questions for upgraders and new installs are very different.
With new installs you can basically make huge changes, although I would opt
to give people the option of switching to the old look at least for 3.0,
maybe not offering the old look at all by 3.5. (Kind of like Ubuntu gave
you an easy way to switch back to Gnome desktop initially but now you need
to install it if you want it).
We're definitely going to have to have overrides one way or another since we
shouldn't break existing templates for people upgrading. Some of us had
informally discussed switching to the Hathor layouts except for the button
for the filter bars since they are better than the core layouts in a number
of ways (having benefited from coming after the core ones were done).
I'm wondering if we can do something for upgrading users like what Google
does with it's "this is the new design do you want to go back to the old
one?" question for people who are using Bluestork (and for Hathor assuming
the new meets all the Hathor standards). For people with other admin
templates this will be particularly important, in fact for 3.0 we might
start with a 'this is the old design do you want to try the new" question
and then switch the question to "this is new do you want to go back to
old?", and then by 3.5 we stop shipping the old but offer downloads.
On Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:57:27 AM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
> Hello Kyle,
> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation.
> We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end of May
> (after the 2.5.5 release).
> Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you posted
> in your forum.
> Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many
> respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them incompatible.
> Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code changes,
> we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including legacy.
> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an
> International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org
> <http://joomla.org> family of sites design was revamped.
> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your branch.
> You should not dismiss them though too fast.
> CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork usable
> (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some experience to
> share.
> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can anyway
> be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you with
> screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some
> improvements.
> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
> Friendly
> JM
>> Hi Kyle,
>> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS lists
>> . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the world
>> where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never thought
>> about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's really
>> important that the people who will in the end have responsibility for long
>> term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to listen for
>> feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has big
>> implications for the independent developer community and of course anything
>> that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get something into
>> the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can try it out and
>> start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to subscribe to the issue
>> report with the work since that way you will get email with each comment.
>> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of
>> settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you can
>> think of.
>> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have now is
>> ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later feed back
>> so let's go for it.
>> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 site
>> that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the sooner we
>> have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing out things
>> like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch templates.
>> Elin
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
>>> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post (how
>>> are you btw, been a while :)
>>> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left to
>>> do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short
>>> while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the
>>> markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and
>>> rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
>>> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the
>>> ux.joomla.org <http://ux.joomla.org> forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly
>>> positive feedback from all types of folks, component developers (who are all
>>> onboard to update their components and completely standardize them),
>>> template developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this
>>> feedback https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen
>>> unified excitement like that in our community before.
>>> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can
>>> guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved
>>> and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being
>>> applied here.
>>>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished
>>>> parts.
>>>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken,
>>>> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
>>>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>>>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped"
>>>> ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we
>>>> immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the
>>>> scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic.
>>>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed
>>>> width is creating many issues.
>>>> Even in English, and at fortiori in other languages, the labels occupy 2 or
>>>> more lines for some.
>>>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the
>>>> Managers.
>>>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>>>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>>>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an
>>>> important bonus for usability.
>>>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything ==
>>>> lost of time
>>>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>>>> Feedback welcome.
>>>> JM
>>>> --
>>>>> Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
>>>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose
>>>> or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
>>>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
>>>> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
>>>> Joomla Production Working group
>>>> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
>> --
>> You received this message because
> And Bluestork and Hathor both won't carry over a 100% similar look since there are some changes in the markup to cope with.
This leads to an interesting question. Bootstrap is designed in a way to heavily describes how something should look like trough classes. This goes kinda contrary to the CSS idea of being able to change how things looks by adapting the stylesheet instead of the markup but I suppose it's the only way to write a CSS "framework" that isn't application specific.
However I'm not sure we should use these - for lack of a better word - unsemantic class names in places that can't be changed trough layout overrides. One example may be our ACL widget (https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/commit/80fde2712...). Now the current class name "pane-sliders" certainly isn't semantic but neither is "tabbable tabs-left". Indeed this is already going to be weird if we wanna put them on the right side for an RTL layout. What we could do is just use the id (maybe even a better one than "permissions-sliders" since that contains the slider again).
The downside is that this would use more CSS. What do others think?
While the class names in Bootstrap aren't perfectly semantic, they're lightyears beyond where we currently are in Joomla and we get so much for free by using Bootstrap. I've barely had to add any UI elements to support any type of UI you can imagine, which is exactly what Joomla needs since components are so varied and versatile. Also we'll continuously add to it and extend Bootstrap to meet 3pd dev needs so they don't have to innovate outside the core UI and therefore get right back where we are today, where each new component feels like an entirely different CMS with it's own unique UI and unique CSS classes, etc, leading to a terribly disconnected user experience and impossibly disconnected UI that makes training and styling a nightmare.
Also in reference to Bluestork and J 2.5 stuff: we're in this effort because we all recognized a problem that needs to be fixed and we can't fix it if we have to try and create a new library of UI while still trying to fully support the old, lacking UI we'll end up limiting what the new UI/UX can do (since time and resources are limited). 2.5 is LTS and people can stick with is as long as they need. 3.0 is an entirely new version number than can (and should) have new, improved UI/UX to not only catch up, but surpass others out there. We all have to commit and work together to get this massive job done. Basically, if you want the old standards and old UI, you can use the old CMS, it's impossible to have both living in the same place.
What I really hope happens next is that we can collaborate and all bring our expertise to the table to divided and conquer. For example, I really need help and guidance in best practices for building things properly for the API and core, and of course identifying things like RTL, translation, accessibility issues (which has already started in this thread and I appreciate it). I'm a UX guy but really need help in properly updating the core as Rouven has already been doing.
Lots to do in a short amount of time, but lots of excitement and promise lining up for 3.0, who's ready to knock this out? :)
-Kyle
On Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:07:56 PM UTC-5, Rouven Weßling wrote:
> On 22.04.2012, at 20:11, Michael Babker wrote:
> > And Bluestork and Hathor both won't carry over a 100% similar look since > there are some changes in the markup to cope with.
> This leads to an interesting question. Bootstrap is designed in a way to > heavily describes how something should look like trough classes. This goes > kinda contrary to the CSS idea of being able to change how things looks by > adapting the stylesheet instead of the markup but I suppose it's the only > way to write a CSS "framework" that isn't application specific.
> However I'm not sure we should use these - for lack of a better word - > unsemantic class names in places that can't be changed trough layout > overrides. One example may be our ACL widget (
> https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/commit/80fde2712...). > Now the current class name "pane-sliders" certainly isn't semantic but > neither is "tabbable tabs-left". Indeed this is already going to be weird > if we wanna put them on the right side for an RTL layout. What we could do > is just use the id (maybe even a better one than "permissions-sliders" > since that contains the slider again).
> The downside is that this would use more CSS. What do others think?
Yes anything with left or right really needs to be renamed if you want to avoid confusion, as we have been through before, one person's semantic becomes another person's crazy very very quickly. (This is why in Beez you see before and after describing the placement of one sidebar on either side of the body rather than right and left.) As soon as people start making overrides too, all the semantic naming becomes not just non-semantic but anti-semantic (which is why neutral names with strings or comments describing the usage in the actual template is the best thing.) Writing for the whole wide world of people who use all kinds of layouts we have not anticipated is hard, but we do have to know that it's going to happen that people will push anything in the core very very hard and far.
LTS means that enterprise with a lot of custom applications requiring the old platform does not have to migrate, but the goal for 3.0 is for no migration problems period and we should hope lots of people upgrade either to 3.0 and 3.1 (and I but better admin UI will be a motivation for this). We have major work to do to make up for the pain we caused with 1.6-2.5 to risk that bad reputation of incompatible upgrades again. Using a major extension that hasn't be upgraded to the current platform is a reason not to upgrade. I don't think we should expect that choice of template is a reason not to upgrade. Fortunately, many fewer people change admin templates than front end templates and I suppose hypothetically people with admin access have better skills than those who don't have it and the costs of some rough edges are not as great as in the front end, but still for people have invested time and/or money in the back end design, it's asking a lot so we need to work on it.
I'm definitely for updating the current templates as models of how to do it if that is possible.
So as usual we need to work together to solve problems and challenges, and I don't mean that in a cynical or sarcastic way at all. It's not easy doing this work and meeting the needs of several million existing websites and several million that will launch with 3.0 will be challenging. By working our way through this for the next few months I think we'll probably come up with better solutions than we might have thought possible. We've seen this before.
> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished > parts. > (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, > Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) > Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" > ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we > immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the > scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic. > 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed > width is creating many issues. > Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy > 2 or more lines for some. > This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the > Managers. > The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an > important bonus for usability.
> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == > lost of time
> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
> Feedback welcome.
> JM
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose > or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 > Joomla Production Working group > Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
That will give you one more way to connect with people. In it, like you have done in the magazine articles, etc., link to the github repo, the UX location, this list, (in addition to the People group you have been using, the UX forum, the magazine articles, and twitter.) Hopefully, you'll have some time to work, too, in addition to pulling in help and good ideas. ;-)
We're pretty much guaranteed to not agree on class names. What I encourage be done is that we pass values into the HTML fields and modules and various locations and try not to hardcode them in. That will help separate the presentation layer from the HTML.
Also, I would encourage someone to create an Admin template using Foundation, or another framework environment. That way, it will be much easier to lift those presentation elements out of the rendering.
That will save us from a futile debate on semantics -- and make sure there is good flexibility.
I'm back working on a project at the University. I'll see what types of usability/accessibility labs and testing facilities might be available. I think we all agree that supporting our international community and accessibility is important to everyone.
Now - all this talk about one project. Let's get some other efforts fired up. Who else is contributing code for 3.0? Should be a great release.
For the left VS right stuff, I think it's as simple as conditionally changing those from the "left" classname to "right" for RTL and everything will pop into place perfectly w/ Bootstrap.
For the markup and LTS, my 3.0 effort isn't just the admin template, it's changing the entire markup of Joomla to standardize and support component and template devs so they don't have to innovate outside the core and all get on the same page. Most of them are already following the new Bootstrap and JUX markup standards for 3.0 versions of their components, ditching their own theming and non-standard styles, etc. So when a user moves to 3.0 they'll need to update everything and magically get standards across the board. I know that's best-case scenario, but it's the vision and main driving force in all this. Because in reality, the JUX is about the experience in Joomla once you've extended it to meet your needs (aka install 10 components).
Imagine the Google Apps user experience (since we're using the new google groups). When you go from Mail to Calendar to Docs to Groups, it's now a seamless user experience where you select your App in the top nav and then get an App-specific left nav and toolbar. This is the exact model I'm following for the 3.0 admin, where when you move from Content to JomSocial to RedShop to Kunena to K2, etc, it all feels like the same system. This is why I'm so excited about what's happening. Everyone's lining up to get on the same page as a community and system. We just need all the proper standard JUI available for them.
On Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:59:07 PM UTC-5, elin wrote:
> Yes anything with left or right really needs to be renamed if you want to > avoid confusion, as we have been through before, one person's semantic > becomes another person's crazy very very quickly. (This is why in Beez you > see before and after describing the placement of one sidebar on either side > of the body rather than right and left.) As soon as people start making > overrides too, all the semantic naming becomes not just non-semantic but > anti-semantic (which is why neutral names with strings or comments > describing the usage in the actual template is the best thing.) Writing > for the whole wide world of people who use all kinds of layouts we have > not anticipated is hard, but we do have to know that it's going to happen > that people will push anything in the core very very hard and far.
> LTS means that enterprise with a lot of custom applications requiring the > old platform does not have to migrate, but the goal for 3.0 is for no > migration problems period and we should hope lots of people upgrade either > to 3.0 and 3.1 (and I but better admin UI will be a motivation for this). > We have major work to do to make up for the pain we caused with 1.6-2.5 to > risk that bad reputation of incompatible upgrades again. Using a major > extension that hasn't be upgraded to the current platform is a reason not > to upgrade. I don't think we should expect that choice of template is a > reason not to upgrade. Fortunately, many fewer people change admin > templates than front end templates and I suppose hypothetically people with > admin access have better skills than those who don't have it and the costs > of some rough edges are not as great as in the front end, but still for > people have invested time and/or money in the back end design, it's asking > a lot so we need to work on it.
> I'm definitely for updating the current templates as models of how to do > it if that is possible.
> So as usual we need to work together to solve problems and challenges, and > I don't mean that in a cynical or sarcastic way at all. It's not easy > doing this work and meeting the needs of several million existing websites > and several million that will launch with 3.0 will be challenging. By > working our way through this for the next few months I think we'll probably > come up with better solutions than we might have thought possible. We've > seen this before.
> Elin
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:55:04 PM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >> unfinished parts. >> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) >> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >> systematic. >> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a >> fixed width is creating many issues. >> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy >> 2 or more lines for some. >> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >> Managers. >> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >> important bonus for usability.
>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >> lost of time
>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> JM
>> --
>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >> Joomla Production Working group >> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
Just throwing my 2 cents in, I think the value of creating the views first and then going through a iteration process with Kyle is the direction we should be heading. I would be glad to provide user testing for the new admin template, and or organize a usability study with the community. * * * * *Gary Brooks *garybro...@cloudaccess.net *Phone: * +1-231-421-7160 Ext: 7161 Direct Office: +1-231-421-7161 ***Skype id: *garyjaybrooks2000 *Fax: * 313-899-7032 *Web: * http://www.cloudaccess.net *Address:* 10850 Traverse Hwy, Suite 4480 | Traverse City, Michigan 49684
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Kyle Ledbetter <
kyle.ledbet...@pixelpraise.com> wrote: > For the left VS right stuff, I think it's as simple as conditionally > changing those from the "left" classname to "right" for RTL and everything > will pop into place perfectly w/ Bootstrap.
> For the markup and LTS, my 3.0 effort isn't just the admin template, it's > changing the entire markup of Joomla to standardize and support component > and template devs so they don't have to innovate outside the core and all > get on the same page. Most of them are already following the new Bootstrap > and JUX markup standards for 3.0 versions of their components, ditching > their own theming and non-standard styles, etc. So when a user moves to 3.0 > they'll need to update everything and magically get standards across the > board. I know that's best-case scenario, but it's the vision and main > driving force in all this. Because in reality, the JUX is about the > experience in Joomla once you've extended it to meet your needs (aka > install 10 components).
> Imagine the Google Apps user experience (since we're using the new google > groups). When you go from Mail to Calendar to Docs to Groups, it's now a > seamless user experience where you select your App in the top nav and then > get an App-specific left nav and toolbar. This is the exact model I'm > following for the 3.0 admin, where when you move from Content to JomSocial > to RedShop to Kunena to K2, etc, it all feels like the same system. This is > why I'm so excited about what's happening. Everyone's lining up to get on > the same page as a community and system. We just need all the proper > standard JUI available for them.
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:59:07 PM UTC-5, elin wrote:
>> Yes anything with left or right really needs to be renamed if you want to >> avoid confusion, as we have been through before, one person's semantic >> becomes another person's crazy very very quickly. (This is why in Beez you >> see before and after describing the placement of one sidebar on either side >> of the body rather than right and left.) As soon as people start making >> overrides too, all the semantic naming becomes not just non-semantic but >> anti-semantic (which is why neutral names with strings or comments >> describing the usage in the actual template is the best thing.) Writing >> for the whole wide world of people who use all kinds of layouts we have >> not anticipated is hard, but we do have to know that it's going to happen >> that people will push anything in the core very very hard and far.
>> LTS means that enterprise with a lot of custom applications requiring the >> old platform does not have to migrate, but the goal for 3.0 is for no >> migration problems period and we should hope lots of people upgrade either >> to 3.0 and 3.1 (and I but better admin UI will be a motivation for this). >> We have major work to do to make up for the pain we caused with 1.6-2.5 to >> risk that bad reputation of incompatible upgrades again. Using a major >> extension that hasn't be upgraded to the current platform is a reason not >> to upgrade. I don't think we should expect that choice of template is a >> reason not to upgrade. Fortunately, many fewer people change admin >> templates than front end templates and I suppose hypothetically people with >> admin access have better skills than those who don't have it and the costs >> of some rough edges are not as great as in the front end, but still for >> people have invested time and/or money in the back end design, it's asking >> a lot so we need to work on it.
>> I'm definitely for updating the current templates as models of how to do >> it if that is possible.
>> So as usual we need to work together to solve problems and challenges, >> and I don't mean that in a cynical or sarcastic way at all. It's not easy >> doing this work and meeting the needs of several million existing websites >> and several million that will launch with 3.0 will be challenging. By >> working our way through this for the next few months I think we'll probably >> come up with better solutions than we might have thought possible. We've >> seen this before.
>> Elin
>> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:55:04 PM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:
>>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >>> unfinished parts. >>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >>> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.) >>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >>> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >>> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >>> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >>> systematic. >>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a >>> fixed width is creating many issues. >>> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels >>> occupy 2 or more lines for some. >>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >>> Managers. >>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >>> important bonus for usability.
>>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >>> lost of time
>>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>>> Feedback welcome.
>>> JM
>>> --
>>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >>> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >>> ------------------------------**----------------------------- >>> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >>> Joomla Production Working group >>> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
I notice that you are using a DIV with class="control-label", AFAIK it is because you can not add CSS class name to form field label (as Bootstrap required)? If it true then you may want to check my pull request https://github.com/joomla/joomla-platform/pull/1169
That pull would allow us to specify CSS class name for form field label via form manifest file. That can save a lot of markup too.
> > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! CMS Development" group. > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
Hi Viet, Thanks for your post, I'll be updating to get the "control-label" class on the label, didn't know that was possible :) Having the class on the <div around the label isn't necessarily a bad thing though, the Bootstrap guys made the class less specific for cases exactly like this. -Kyle
> I notice that you are using a DIV with class="control-label", AFAIK it is > because you can not add CSS class name to form field label (as Bootstrap > required)? If it true then you may want to check my pull request > https://github.com/joomla/joomla-platform/pull/1169
> That pull would allow us to specify CSS class name for form field label > via form manifest file. That can save a lot of markup too.
> Viet
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:58 AM, Sam Moffatt <pasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com >> . >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Joomla! CMS Development" group. >> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
On Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:57:27 AM UTC-5, infograf768 wrote:
> Hello Kyle,
> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation. > We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end of > May (after the 2.5.5 release). > Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you > posted in your forum. > Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many > respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them > incompatible. > Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code > changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including > legacy.
> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an > International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family > of sites design was revamped.
> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your > branch. > You should not dismiss them though too fast. > CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork > usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some > experience to share.
> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can > anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you > with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some > improvements.
> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
> Friendly
> JM
> Hi Kyle,
> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS > lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the > world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never > thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's > really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility > for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to > listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has > big implications for the independent developer community and of course > anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get > something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can > try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to > subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get > email with each comment.
> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of > settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you > can think of.
> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have now > is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later feed > back so let's go for it.
> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 > site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the > sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing > out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch > templates.
> Elin
> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post > (how are you btw, been a while :)
> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left > to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short > while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the > markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and > rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the > ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback > from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to > update their components and completely standardize them), template > developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback > https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified > excitement like that in our community before.
> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can > guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved > and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being > applied here.
> If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always around and up for > it in any of these channels:
> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished > parts.
> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, > Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" > ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we > immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the > scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic.
> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed > width is creating many issues.
> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy > 2 or more lines for some.
> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the > Managers.
> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an > important bonus for usability.
> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == > lost of time
> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
> Feedback welcome.
> JM
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not > disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! CMS Development" group. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/z1RkcUZG5EUJ. > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
> --
> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose > or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the > intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 > Joomla Production Working group > Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
Love the work Kyle, but not liking the page title next to the site title...as presented, at least. Something about it feels clunky, for lack of a better term.
The page title in the image where it's shown below the site title seems to make good UI sense, as in, this is where the user is, and these items to the right are actions that can be done here.
Just my tuppence... If that's even worth anything anymore, with inflation, recessions and what not :)
Keep up the great work! It's awesome and exciting to see!
> Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is more room :)
> More updates coming
> -Kyle
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:57:27 AM UTC-5, infograf768 wrote:
> Hello Kyle,
> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation.
> We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end of May (after the 2.5.5 release).
> Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you posted in your forum.
> Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them incompatible.
> Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including legacy.
> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family of sites design was revamped.
> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your branch.
> You should not dismiss them though too fast.
> CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some experience to share.
> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some improvements.
> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
> Friendly
> JM
>> Hi Kyle,
>> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has big implications for the independent developer community and of course anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get email with each comment.
>> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you can think of.
>> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later feed back so let's go for it.
>> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch templates.
>> Elin
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
>> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post (how are you btw, been a while :)
>> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
>> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to update their components and completely standardize them), template developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community before.
>> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being applied here.
>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished parts.
>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic.
>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed width is creating many issues.
>> Even in English, and at fortiori in other languages, the labels occupy 2 or more lines for some.
>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the Managers.
>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an important bonus for usability.
>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == lost of time
>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> JM
>> --
>>> Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
>> Joomla Production Working group
>> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team >> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/z1RkcUZG5EUJ.
>> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
> -- >> Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
> Joomla Production Working group
> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/mWz82v1-qZoJ.
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
TJ... I like you very much, but I have to disagree to you in this point of
view... The title going up make's more sense, because, there, is a vacant
spot and on small screens, the space where it currently are, will be needed
for the buttons. Besides that, the title can be long as well, and I would
even suggest to that title work's like a breadcrumb, with links to go back
to parents if it is more than one...
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:55 AM, TJ Baker <zaridan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Love the work Kyle, but not liking the page title next to the site
> title...as presented, at least. Something about it feels clunky, for lack
> of a better term.
> The page title in the image where it's shown below the site title seems to
> make good UI sense, as in, this is where the user is, and these items to
> the right are actions that can be done here.
> Just my tuppence... If that's even worth anything anymore, with inflation,
> recessions and what not :)
> Keep up the great work! It's awesome and exciting to see!
> On Apr 27, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Kyle Ledbetter <
> kyle.ledbet...@pixelpraise.com> wrote:
> Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on
> twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is more
> room :)
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:57:27 AM UTC-5, infograf768 wrote:
>> Hello Kyle,
>> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation.
>> We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end
>> of May (after the 2.5.5 release).
>> Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you
>> posted in your forum.
>> Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
>> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many
>> respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them
>> incompatible.
>> Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code
>> changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including
>> legacy.
>> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an
>> International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family
>> of sites design was revamped.
>> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your
>> branch.
>> You should not dismiss them though too fast.
>> CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork
>> usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some
>> experience to share.
>> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can
>> anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
>> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you
>> with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some
>> improvements.
>> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
>> Friendly
>> JM
>> Hi Kyle,
>> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS
>> lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the
>> world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never
>> thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's
>> really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility
>> for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to
>> listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has
>> big implications for the independent developer community and of course
>> anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get
>> something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can
>> try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to
>> subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get
>> email with each comment.
>> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of
>> settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you
>> can think of.
>> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have
>> now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later
>> feed back so let's go for it.
>> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5
>> site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the
>> sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing
>> out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch
>> templates.
>> Elin
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
>> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post
>> (how are you btw, been a while :)
>> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left
>> to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short
>> while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the
>> markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and
>> rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
>> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the
>> ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive **feedback
>> from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to
>> update their components and completely standardize them), template
>> developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback
>> https://twitter.com/#**!/search/joomla%203.0<https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0>< I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community before.
>> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can
>> guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved
>> and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being
>> applied here.
>> If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always around and up for
>> it in any of these channels:
>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the
>> unfinished parts.
>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken,
>> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of
>> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so
>> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5
>> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not
>> systematic.
>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed
>> width is creating many issues.
>> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy
>> 2 or more lines for some.
>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the
>> Managers.
>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an
>> important bonus for usability.
>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything ==
>> lost of time
>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> JM
>> --
>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not
>> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
>> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >> msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/**z1RkcUZG5EUJ<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/z1RkcUZG5EUJ>
>> .
>> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.**com<joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@
>> **googlegroups.com <joomla-dev-cms%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >> group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB<http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB>
>> .
On Friday, April 27, 2012 12:14:49 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
> Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on > twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is more > room :)
> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:57:27 AM UTC-5, infograf768 wrote:
>> Hello Kyle,
>> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation. >> We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end >> of May (after the 2.5.5 release). >> Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you >> posted in your forum. >> Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
>> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many >> respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them >> incompatible. >> Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code >> changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including >> legacy.
>> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an >> International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family >> of sites design was revamped.
>> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your >> branch. >> You should not dismiss them though too fast. >> CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork >> usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some >> experience to share.
>> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can >> anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
>> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you >> with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some >> improvements.
>> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
>> Friendly
>> JM
>> Hi Kyle,
>> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS >> lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the >> world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never >> thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's >> really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility >> for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to >> listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has >> big implications for the independent developer community and of course >> anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get >> something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can >> try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to >> subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get >> email with each comment.
>> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of >> settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you >> can think of.
>> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have >> now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later >> feed back so let's go for it.
>> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 >> site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the >> sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing >> out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch >> templates.
>> Elin
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
>> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post >> (how are you btw, been a while :)
>> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left >> to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short >> while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the >> markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and >> rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
>> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the >> ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback >> from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to >> update their components and completely standardize them), template >> developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback >> https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified >> excitement like that in our community before.
>> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can >> guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved >> and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being >> applied here.
>> If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always around and up for >> it in any of these channels:
>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >> unfinished parts.
>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >> systematic.
>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed >> width is creating many issues.
>> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy >> 2 or more lines for some.
>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >> Managers.
>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >> important bonus for usability.
>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >> lost of time
>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> JM
>> --
>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Joomla! CMS Development" group. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/z1RkcUZG5EUJ. >> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
>> --
>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >> Joomla Production Working group >> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
Is the help link on the top bar the contextual help or is it still the top help menu? Have you just not dealt with that button (and the preferences button) on the tool bar yet? I think it would be really good to have a contextual help icon that is more universal than the life preserver (I always wonder how people who live in land locked places interpret that one).
On Sunday, April 29, 2012 9:57:48 AM UTC-4, elin wrote:
> Kyle,
> That's a big help, the crowded-ness in that space right now is a big issue > in the current managers even in English.
> Elin
> On Friday, April 27, 2012 12:14:49 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
>> Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on >> twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is more >> room :)
>> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:57:27 AM UTC-5, infograf768 wrote:
>>> Hello Kyle,
>>> I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation. >>> We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end >>> of May (after the 2.5.5 release). >>> Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you >>> posted in your forum. >>> Getting a full branch to test made the difference.
>>> I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many >>> respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them >>> incompatible. >>> Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code >>> changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including >>> legacy.
>>> This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an >>> International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.orgfamily of sites design was revamped.
>>> My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your >>> branch. >>> You should not dismiss them though too fast. >>> CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork >>> usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some >>> experience to share.
>>> Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can >>> anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.
>>> I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you >>> with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some >>> improvements.
>>> If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.
>>> Friendly
>>> JM
>>> Hi Kyle,
>>> Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS >>> lists . So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the >>> world where your work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never >>> thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's >>> really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility >>> for long term maintenance get to know the code. Probably you will want to >>> listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has >>> big implications for the independent developer community and of course >>> anything that touches core outputs. Most important I think is to get >>> something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can >>> try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to >>> subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get >>> email with each comment.
>>> There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds >>> of settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you >>> can think of.
>>> Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have >>> now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later >>> feed back so let's go for it.
>>> I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 >>> site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the >>> sooner we have things to test the sooner we can start coding and testing >>> out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch >>> templates.
>>> Elin
>>> On Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14:10 PM UTC-4, Kyle Ledbetter wrote:
>>> Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post >>> (how are you btw, been a while :)
>>> To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots >>> left to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a >>> short while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get >>> the markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and >>> rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.
>>> I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in >>> the ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive >>> overwhelmingly positive feedback from all types of folks, component >>> developers (who are all onboard to update their components and completely >>> standardize them), template developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse >>> check all this feedback https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < >>> I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community before.
>>> Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can >>> guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved >>> and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being >>> applied here.
>>> If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always around and up for >>> it in any of these channels:
>>> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the >>> unfinished parts.
>>> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, >>> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
>>> Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>>> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of >>> "Strapped" ( ;-) ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so >>> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 >>> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not >>> systematic.
>>> 2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed >>> width is creating many issues.
>>> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels >>> occupy 2 or more lines for some.
>>> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the >>> Managers.
>>> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>>> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>>> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an >>> important bonus for usability.
>>> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == >>> lost of time
>>> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>>> Feedback welcome.
>>> JM
>>> --
>>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >>> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Joomla! CMS Development" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/-/z1RkcUZG5EUJ. >>> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> joomla-dev-cms+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.
>>> --
>>> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*
>>> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not >>> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the >>> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please >>> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768 >>> Joomla Production Working group >>> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
