Has this George Smith even read our book?

[Srimukunda]

Hare Krishna,

It's a shame that Rocana allows less than journalism on his webpage, but to print nonsense by this George Smith and not allow any rebuttal by HKS itself is dispicable and Rocana should be banned from publishing on the Internet.

Has he read Srila Prabhupada Siddhanta?  And what section and page number does he have a problem with?  Let him criticize HKS by rebutting Srila Prabhupada Siddhanta Book.  The book is HKS, so tell the HKS specifically what you disagree with by giving us the page number of the section in question.  No one has done thisin the 7 years since the book was first published.  Not Rocana, not the GBC, no one except Prat---- whose only criticizism was we used the wrong FONT. So George Smith, tell the HKS what part of Srila Prabhupada Sidddhanta Book you disagree with.  Put up or shut up, with all do respect of course.

Ys 

Srimukunda dasa

From the mind of Michael Sandoval via iPhone 

On Aug 22, 2011, at 9:20 PM, Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

True!

---

From: has...@hotmail.com
To: vidu...@hotmail.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; agha...@hotmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; das...@yahoo.com.sg; dasd...@aol.com; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gokul...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; praty...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; rgswa...@yahoo.com; saks...@tpg.com.au; srim...@yahoo.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; urdh...@aol.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; yasod...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Krishna Janmastami - brought to you by... subway?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:39:17 -0300

It is quite obvious that ND is now promoting the sale of slaughtered animals, they are directly promoting violence in toto. Not only that, they continue to feed off who they claim is their spiritual founder. He no longer is and has never been for many many years. This is not an isolated incident, they are loosing ground.
 
Cut out the Subway logo and protect the dieties in the picture. Find out if Subway authorised this, go deep.
 
Ys  Hasti Gopala Dasa

---

From: vidu...@hotmail.com
To: a.kris...@hkm-group.org; agha...@hotmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; das...@yahoo.com.sg; dasd...@aol.com; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gokul...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; praty...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; rgswa...@yahoo.com; saks...@tpg.com.au; srim...@yahoo.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; urdh...@aol.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; yasod...@yahoo.com
Subject: Krishna Janmastami - brought to you by... subway?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 02:48:20 -0600

Interesting Janmastami pamphlet from New Dwarka (LA)

(see attachment)

This was one of the pages in the booklet. 

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

So Why not write tell them all what you wrote below and get them to address the various issues.  Seems that it shouldn't be that difficult... With love, Your servant, B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna --- On Tue, 8/23/11, Srimukunda <srimu...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Vidura Das]

Haribol Srimukunda and all Prabhu's here. pamho. AGTSP!

This recent article from Rocana is laughable. All of his articles are, but this one especially. Accusing Yasoda of claiming to be one of the "liberated sages"? Seriously? That's all Rocana could come up with? Rocana said:

In examining this part of Yasodanandana's position paper we read in support of the quoted verse above what he offers to us as being Srila Prabhupada's purport, but which is actually not, although had I not double-checked, I would have failed to discover this fact and accepted that it was. 

Let's take a look at this quote that he's rambling about:

"There cannot be mistakes, illusion, cheating, or imperfect perception in the words of liberated sages... Srila Vyasadeva revealed these statements after perfect realization, and therefore they are perfect, for liberated sages like Vyasadeva never commit errors in their rhetorical arrangements... Since the Personality of Godhead and His plenary portions and self-realized souls are all transcendentally situated, they cannot be misled by such deficiencies "(10) Adi 2.86

Now let's take a look at the definition of the common punctuation mark put into use in the above quote known as the ellipses, or series of dots:

noun (plural ellipses /-sīŋŊz/)

- the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.

- a set of dots indicating an ellipsis.

Superfluous:

"being more than enough."

Contextual:

"considered together with the surrounding words or circumstances."

What I have to say to this George character:

Dear George, if you had "double-checked" a dictionary first you would have never written your article to begin with. Unless, of course, you were solely intent on defaming someone, regardless of the merit of the accusations. The punctuation used in the quote implies all of the above definitions. It was appropriately used by the author to demonstrate His point, while still indicating to the reader that there is information being left out.

You compare this editing to the editing of the books themselves, but again you fail to understand the simple difference between the two. The books are being edited by the BBT in the author's name, meaning that whatever is being changed or added is supposed to be accepted as the author's work. As we all know, this is highly offensive and unethical since the author is no longer here to approve of such changes. However, in the case of citations, individual writers are at complete liberty to summarize works by an author providing that individual use the proper punctuation marks intended for that very purpose. This law of writing indicates to any learned audience that the quote being cited is not in entirety and that the provided source should thereby be consulted. I therefore urge you, with respect, to consult a grammar book and educate yourself in this manner. It is an honest mistake and i'm sure we can all forgive you if you come to admit the fault.

If you cannot commit to the above, what you need to do is show your readers just how Yasodanandana Prabhu's summarized quote in any way diverts from the essential meaning of it's source. You would also then need to provide some proof of how Yasodanandana applies the quote to Himself and in His own words. You at least owe this to readers of the sampradaya sun.

Thank you, Haribol.

Your Servant,

Vidura Das
 

p.s. I do not know this george's email address. Nor do I really care to get it through to him. The whole accusation itself is absolutely desperate and ridiculous at that.

I give permission, though, to anyone and everyone to forward this to George on my behalf. Not to the sampradaya sun, but to George. I do not wish to participate in the sampradaya sun's dishonest website policies by submitting articles under their domain.

---

Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:58:45 -0700
From: srimu...@yahoo.com

Subject: Has this George Smith even read our book?

To: vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: has...@hotmail.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; agha...@hotmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; das...@yahoo.com.sg; dasd...@aol.com; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gokul...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; praty...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; rgswa...@yahoo.com; saks...@tpg.com.au; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; urdh...@aol.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; yasod...@yahoo.com

[charles dowson]

Rochon and the Sun are a washout...like gravel situated at the bottom of the stream of gold...swifts of fine soil infected with dead insects and twigs. Nothing there with life but bacteria. The real Sun is evaporating the polluted waters of wasted energetic pulses. There is nothing left to respond to because there is no real challenge but how to waste more time effectively and when we do that it is like slam dunking with a mannequin as an opponent. TAAA DAAA!  ROCANA DASA!! :)
 
BY the way, ROCANA DASA...I am in review of my Return Of Truth short story and preparing for the final chapter...I had promised it to the SamSun first but lo and behold you have banned me from your sacred script! So it will go to everyone else...for free to re-edit, correct, etc. but not for you. It is my first attempt at a short story with massive mistakes but it is honest. You and the Sam Sun's readers shall not pass!!!

It is the first known Hare Krsna end of the world sci fi story with Srila Prabhupada and his disciples as the hero's!! 
 
Srila Prabhupada's servant, dasa dasa anudasa!
 
Hasti Gopala Dasa

---

From: vidu...@hotmail.com
To: srimu...@yahoo.com
CC: has...@hotmail.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; agha...@hotmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; das...@yahoo.com.sg; dasd...@aol.com; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gokul...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; praty...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; rgswa...@yahoo.com; saks...@tpg.com.au; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; urdh...@aol.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; yasod...@yahoo.com; yoho...@yahoo.com; vidu...@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Has this George Smith even read our book?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 22:50:13 -0600

[Pratyatosa]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Srimukunda <srimu...@yahoo.com> wrote:

No one has done thisin the 7 years since the book was first published.  Not Rocana, not the GBC, no one except Prat---- whose only criticizism was we used the wrong FONT.

Dear Srimukunda Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

What I said has nothing to do with choice of font. I said that the Srila Prabhupada Siddhanta book does not include the Sanskrit diacritics. There is absolutely no excuse for that. The books that my wife and I published in the early 90s, one of which was 500 pages long, all included the Sanskrit diacritics. What is your excuse?

Just copy/paste the entire book into the text box on <http://pratyatosa.com/AddDiacritics.cgi>, click the "Add diacritics" button, and there you have it! No more excuses for disobeying Srila Prabhupada!

BTW, have you obeyed Srila Prabhupada's instruction to take vanaprastha at age 50?

Prabhupada: In reply to Jayadvaita’s questions, henceforward the policy for using diacritic markings is that I want them used everywhere, on large books, small books and also BTG. If there is any difficulty with the pronunciation, then after the correct diacritic spelling, in brackets the words "pronounced as _," may be written. So even on covers the diacritic markings should be used. We should not have to reduce our standard on account of the ignorant masses. Diacritic spelling is accepted internationally, and no learned person will even care to read our books unless this system is maintained. (Letter to Jadurani, 31 December, 1971)

You and your HKS are simply an embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada!

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Sean Hartigan]

This mailing list is an embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada. All I have seen for several months now is quarrels and bickering within the quarrels and bickering. What is the point?

--
You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[Vidura Das]

Ah, i'm sure (well I hope) Srila Prabhupada will excuse some of the HKS's apparent shortcomings in the grammatical area. After all, there are a lot of larger issues that need correcting today. I'm sure that Srila Prabhupada would greatly disapprove of the changing of His books for example, and that if any individual came out to expose these offenses, I doubt that Srila Prabhupada would reject that effort on the basis of pronunciation of words. Of course, Srila Prabhupada wanted these diacritics to be there so that we will be seen as professional and scholarly to the mass public (and, of course, for proper pronunciation). However, the whole question of being professional went down the drain when they stole the movement from Srila Prabhupada and started doing things their way. Not that we are now at liberty to do things however we want, but simply that there are greater problems today and therefore the relatively smaller blunders should be maturely looked over for the time being. The issue now is how to reclaim that movement at least. When people complain about things like diacritics, actually that should be good news for the HKS. It shows that they have done such a good job presenting Srila Prabhupada's essential teachings that even the envious cannot find fault in that area - only in pronunciation. Perhaps the fault finding of a sincere endeavor by devotee's is the real embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada?

I personally agree with the points in the SPS book, so lack of criticism in that area is very encouraging to me and i'd like to thank you Pratyatosa for encouraging the book in that way.

Thank you, Haribol.

Your Servant,

Vidura Das

p.s. I like your website there. I'm sure it will serve as a great service in the diacritic area. The name of the website itself is a bit... egocentric? But i'm sure that can be looked over by the mature audience while in view of the higher purpose being served.

 All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:26:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?
To: srimu...@yahoo.com
CC: pari...@btinternet.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Vidura Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

The Hare Krishna Society (HKS) seems to be yet another excuse for not following Srila Prabhupada's oft repeated order for all of his male disciples to take vanaprastha at age 50. This means mandatory retirement at age 50. No more maintaining houses, motor vehicles or wives. No more jobs or businesses. No more administering temples, farms, or preaching centers. All of these things should, upon reaching the age of 50, be turned over to our grownup sons or at the very least, to the 2nd generation.

More below.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ah, i'm sure (well I hope) Srila Prabhupada will excuse some of the HKS's apparent shortcomings in the grammatical area.

Strawman argument. To include the Sanskrit diacritics has nothing to do with grammar.
 

After all, there are a lot of larger issues that need correcting today. I'm sure that Srila Prabhupada would greatly disapprove of the changing of His books for example, and that if any individual came out to expose these offenses, I doubt that Srila Prabhupada would reject that effort on the basis of pronunciation of words.

If it's OK to disobey Srila Prabhupada's order about the Sanskrit diacritics, an order which is very easy to follow, then why not also disobey his order on chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs? Unlike the diacritics order, these orders are not always so easy to follow. Where does the disobedience of the spiritual master end?

Of course, Srila Prabhupada wanted these diacritics to be there so that we will be seen as professional and scholarly to the mass public (and, of course, for proper pronunciation). However, the whole question of being professional went down the drain when they stole the movement from Srila Prabhupada and started doing things their way. Not that we are now at liberty to do things however we want, but simply that there are greater problems today and therefore the relatively smaller blunders should be maturely looked over for the time being.

Excuses, excuses, excuses!

The issue now is how to reclaim that movement at least. When people complain about things like diacritics, actually that should be good news for the HKS. It shows that they have done such a good job presenting Srila Prabhupada's essential teachings that even the envious cannot find fault in that area - only in pronunciation.

Conversely if someone finds fault with <http://pratyatosa.com/>, then he must be envious, and if "ego" is the only fault that such an envious person can find, then it must be good news! :-)
 

Perhaps the fault finding of a sincere endeavor by devotee's is the real embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada?

To point out that the ISKCON leaders have disobeyed Srila Prabhuipada's "ritvik henceforward" order is not fault finding, but to point out that the HKS is disobeying his "diacritics henceforward" order is?

I personally agree with the points in the SPS book, so lack of criticism in that area is very encouraging to me and i'd like to thank you Pratyatosa for encouraging the book in that way.

I'm not the one who brought up the subject. Srimukunda Dasa did. He brought it up in the form of another one of his mean spirited strawman arguments, and he didn't even have the decency to spell out my whole name. Even Rocana is'nt that low!

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Vidura Das]

The envious will always find some fault. Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers always had something to say about Him. They were so eager to see the small things and overlook the real good that's coming out of it. They didn't want to cooperate out of envy. They didn't offer any help - they simply criticized. If you feel so strongly about the diacritics, then why don't you offer to help the problem by using your handy-dandy little "pratyatosa" website that you made? Why just ramble on and on about it? Raise some money and re-print the SPS book, no one's stopping you. In fact i'm sure it would be greatly appreciated. Do you even care about Srila Prabhupada's movement? Then try to cooperate with those who are also trying to make a sincere endeavor. No one is perfect. Do you claim to be following every single order that Srila Prabhupada ever gave? If not, then I can ask you the same question: "where does the disobedience end?"

You say:

"The Hare Krishna Society (HKS) seems to be yet another excuse for not following Srila Prabhupada's oft repeated order for all of his male disciples to take vanaprastha at age 50."

You accuse ME of straw man arguments? Your argument is based on what "seems to be". Can you show me what is there, instead of what seems to be there according to your imagination? Show me specifically which part of the SPS book that you disagree with. Not it's format, not it's punctuation, pronunciation, grammar, spelling, font color, no - show me what real point you disagree with. Stop beating around the bush.

"To point out that the ISKCON leaders have disobeyed Srila Prabhuipada's "ritvik henceforward" order is not fault finding, but to point out that the HKS is disobeying his "diacritics henceforward" order is?"

Wow, are you really comparing the two? Maybe you should write a Final Order book on diacritics, that'll give you something to do. You can call it "The Final order on pronunciation within ISKCON". 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:17:43 -0400

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?

To: vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Pratyatosa]

What did you, Srimukunda, and Damaghosa say to Srila Prabhupada when each of you reached the age of 50 years? Did you thumb your noses at him saying, "None of your disciples follow ALL of your instructions, so is it OK if we simply pretend that you never said, over and over again, take vanaprastha at age 50?"

Ys, Ptd

[Vidura Das]

First answer my previous question: Do you claim to be following all of the orders of Srila Prabhupada perfectly?

 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:51:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?
To: vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Joseph Langevin]

Srila Prabhupada on what is a sannyasi:

".... Therefore, action in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is always superior to renunciation, which always entails a risk of falling. Renunciation without Kṛṣṇa consciousness is incomplete, as is confirmed by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ
mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo vairāgyaṁ phalgu kathyate:

Renunciation by persons eager to achieve liberation of things which are related to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, though they are material, is called incomplete renunciation." Renunciation is compete when it is in the knowledge that everything in existence belongs to the Lord and that no one should claim proprietorship over anything. One should understand that, factually, nothing belongs to anyone. Then where is the question of renunciation? One who knows that everything is Kṛṣṇa's property is always situated in renunciation. Since everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything should be employed in the service of Kṛṣṇa. This perfect form of action in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is far better than any amount of artificial renunciation by a sannyāsī of the Māyāvādī school...."

Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Karma-yoga-Action in Krsna Consciousness : Bg 5.2 : PURPORT :

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ

kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ

sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca

na niragnir na cākriyaḥ

SYNONYMS

śrī bhagavān uvāca—the Lord said; anāśritaḥ—without shelter; karma-phalam—the result of work; kāryam—obligatory; karma—work; karoti—performs; yaḥ—one who; saḥ—he; sannyāsī—in the renounced order; ca—also; yogī—mystic; ca—also; na—not; nir—without; agniḥ—fire; na—nor; ca—also; akriyaḥ—without duty.

TRANSLATION

The Blessed Lord said: One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic: not he who lights no fire and performs no work.

Purport

In this chapter the Lord explains that the process of the eightfold yoga system is a means to control the mind and the senses. However, this is very difficult for people in general to perform, especially in the age of Kali. Although the eightfold yoga system is recommended in this chapter, the Lord emphasizes that the process of karma-yoga, or acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is better. Everyone acts in this world to maintain his family and their paraphernalia, but no one is working without some self-interest, some personal gratification, be it concentrated or extended. The criterion of perfection is to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and not with a view to enjoying the fruits of work. To act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the duty of every living entity because all are constitutionally parts and parcels of the Supreme. The parts of the body work for the satisfaction of the whole body. The limbs of the body do not act for self-satisfaction but for the satisfaction of the complete whole. Similarly, the living entity who acts for satisfaction of the supreme whole and not for personal satisfaction is the perfect sannyāsī, the perfect yogī.

The sannyāsīs sometimes artificially think that they have become liberated from all material duties, and therefore they cease to perform agnihotra yajñas (fire sacrifices), but actually they are self-interested because their goal is becoming one with the impersonal Brahman. Such a desire is greater than any material desire, but it is not without self-interest. Similarly, the mystic yogī who practices the yoga system with half-open eyes, ceasing all material activities, desires some satisfaction for his personal self. But a person acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness works for the satisfaction of the whole, without self-interest. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has no desire for self-satisfaction. His criterion of success is the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, and thus he is the perfect sannyāsī, or perfect yogī. Lord Caitanya, the highest perfectional symbol of renunciation, prays in this way:

na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye.
mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi.

"O Almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor to enjoy beautiful women. Nor do I want any number of followers. What I want only is the causeless mercy of Your devotional service in my life, birth after birth"

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 6: Sankhya-yoga : Bg 6.1 :

Real sannyāsa-yoga or bhakti means that one should know his constitutional position as the living entity, and act accordingly. The living entity has no separate independant identity. He is the marginal energy of the Supreme. When he is entrapped by material energy, he is conditioned, and when he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, or aware of the spiritual energy, then he is in his real and natural state of life. Therefore, when one is in complete knowledge, one ceases all material sense gratification, or renounces all kinds of sense gratificatory activities. This is practiced by the yogīs who restrain the senses from material attachment. But a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has no opportunity to engage his senses in anything which is not for the purpose of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, a Krsna conscious person is simultaneously a sannyāsī and a yogī. The purpose of knowledge and of restraining the senses, as prescribed in the jñāna and yoga processes, is automatically served in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If one is unable to give up the activities of his selfish nature, then jñāna and yoga are of no avail. The real aim is for a living entity to give up all selfish satisfaction and to be prepared to satisfy the Supreme. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has no desire for any kind of self-enjoyment. He is always engaged for the enjoyment of the Supreme. One who has no information of the Supreme must therefore be engaged in self-satisfaction because no one can stand on the platform of inactivity. All these purposes are perfectly served by the practice of Kṛṣṇa consciousness

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 6: Sankhya-yoga : Bg 6.2 : PURPORT


"As described in the second verse of this chapter, this devotional service is not only easy, but it can be performed in a happy mood. One does not need to undergo any severe penance and austerity. He can live this life in devotional service, guided by an expert spiritual master, and in any position, either as a householder or a sannyāsī, or a brahmacārī; in any position and anywhere in the world, he can perform this devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and thus become actually mahātmā, a great soul"
Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 9: The Most Confidential Knowledge : Bg 9.14

"... Anyone who has no other interest but to dedicate his life to the service of the Lord is actually a sannyāsī Such a person always thinks of himself as an eternal servant, dependant on the supreme will of the Lord. As such, whatever he does, he does it for the benefit of the Lord. Whatever action he performs, he performs it as service to the Lord. He does not give serious attention to the fruitive activities or prescribed duties mentioned in the Vedas. For ordinary persons it is obligatory to execute the prescribed duties mentioned in the Vedas, but although a pure devotee who is completely engaged in the service of the Lord may sometimes appear to go against the prescribed Vedic duties, actually it is not so...".

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 9: The Most Confidential Knowledge : Bg 9.28 : PURPORT :

"...Such directions are given in authoritative scriptures such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā, or from a bona fide spiritual master. Because the spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master, saintly persons and scriptures direct in the same way. There is no contradiction in these three sources. All actions done under such direction are free from the reactions of pious or impious activities of this material world. The transcendental attitude of the devotee in the performance of activities is actually that of renunciation, and this is called sannyāsa. Anyone acting under the direction of the Supreme Lord is actually a sannyāsī and a yogī, and not the man who has simply taken the dress of the sannyāsī, or a pseudo-yogī..."

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 10: The Opulence of the Absolute : Bg 10.3

"... Real renunciation means that one should always think himself part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Therefore he has no right to enjoy the results of his work. Since he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, the results of his work must be enjoyed by the Supreme Lord. This is actually Krṣna consciousness. The person acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is really a sannyāsī, one in the renounced order of life. By such mentality, one is satisfied because he is actually acting for the Supreme. Thus he is not attached to anything material; he becomes accustomed to not taking pleasure in anything beyond the transcendental happiness derived from the service of the Lord. A sannyāsī is supposed to be free from the reactions of his past activities, but a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness automatically attains this perfection without even accepting the so-called order of renunciation. This state of mind is called yogārūḍha, or the perfectional stage of yoga, as confirmed in the Third Chapter: yas tv ātma-ratir eva syāt. One who is satisfied in himself has no fear of any kind of reaction from his activity..."

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 18: Conclusion-The Perfection of Renunciation : Bg 18.49 : PURPORT

---

From: Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com>
To: praty...@gmail.com
Cc: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; Puranjana Prabhu <ange...@yahoo.com>; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasoda nandana <yasod...@yahoo.com>; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; bangalore <b...@iskconbangalore.org>; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; hasti gopal <has...@hotmail.com>; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jaya gouranga <jayagou...@sbcglobal.net>; Jivadhara <jiva...@yahoo.com>; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; Madhusudhan <rs.madh...@gmail.com>; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; Nimai <nimai51...@yahoo.com>; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stella singh <stellas...@yahoo.com>; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; vadi <prabhu...@hotmail.com>; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: Has this George Smith even read our book?

[Vidura Das]

Perfect quotes. Thank you Srila Prabhupada for clearing that up.

Your Servant,

Vidura Das
 

---

Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:38:08 -0700
From: yasod...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi
To: vidu...@hotmail.com; praty...@gmail.com
CC: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[tim lee]

Varnaprastha is part of a functioning society of varnasrama. We really do not have that at present. Married ISKCON people cannot really "take varnaprastha" and resign from mundane society, renounce their material situation, and live in a holy place under the protection of ISKCON, or under the protection of their grown up sons because most of their gurukuli children can barely maintain themselves -- if they are lucky. Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to gradually relinquish material life in a society wide manner, a complete system of support,  where the senior devotees of his society would get care for themselves in the holy places UNDER the umbrella of ISKCON, where they could chant in a peaceful way and advance.   I would not do that independently even if I was wealthy, I have to avoid the holy places since they would probably have me assassinated there. As for care, one brahmachari named Radha kunda was dying over there while living under a tree, and some heartfelt lady put him in a hospice at her expense seeing that he was being negected. He still died, in part because he was not treated well.   This is why some of us are glad for the material society that has taken care of us despite all its defects, there is basically no care for us seniors in current ISKCON. To advise people to give up their material situation right now, at any age, and renounce their material possession to go live in a holy place under the care of ISKCON, is not practical and could casue a lot of problems for people, as it did with poor Radha kunda. He did not get care and neither we should expect any either.   On the other hand we should be renounced from our  wives after age 50 in terms of physical lusty attractions, that is another thing. So this varnasrama was requested, but never implemented, and it cannot be implemented on an individual basis very practically. And in fact we may find our wives after age 50 are our best association and encouragement, so in that case its better to keep connected, but to try and keep the relation more spiritual. We need to make a fully functioning care system for varnasrama, otherwise, many women will simply become more ISKCON victims of their men leaving their responsibilities, so its something we need to consider very carefully since so many women have already been tossed under the bus. ys pd

[Vidura Das]

Very true. 

---

Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:56:52 -0700
From: ange...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Has this George Smith even read our book?
To: praty...@gmail.com; vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[mahasrnga dasa]

Dear Jayadvaita Swami I have seen the last couple of letters between yourself and Mahasrnga Prabhu as a response to his letter to Ekanatha Prabhu.  No doubt he is somewhat direct in his speaking, which may be due to frustration. In your response you mention. >In academic circles, it is not at all considered unethical. >On the contrary, when responsibly done it is considered a >valuable service. (See http://www.bbtedit.com/node/120.) Node/120 reads:  Restoring lost or mangled text to great works of literature is an endeavor scholars and educated readers highly value, and publishing houses with impeccable reputations for scholarly integrity have published posthumously edited works by such authors as Melville, Thoreau, Faulkner, Hemingway, Orwell, Joyce, Robert Frost, Mark Twain, and James Fenimore Cooper. Srila Prabhupadas works are not lost or mangled.  The work you are doing is not restoration, neither are you editing, you are changing.  Many senior devotees I know here in India feel that the editing is a valuable service but they also feel that there are too many changes that do nothing to make the subject any clearer. Then you say: >And the history of our sampradaya shows editing of the work >of a departed acarya done even by such an illustrious figure >as Srila Jiva Gosvami. (See http://www.bbtedit.com/node/121.) Node/121 reads:  The fourteenth chapter of the Bhakti-ratnakara contains four letters written by Sri Jiva Gosvami to Srinivasa Acarya. In the first letter, Jiva writes that he is still proofreading/correcting the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu of Srila Rupa Gosvami, who by then had passed away. Was it that, the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu was already in print under the direction of Srila Rupa Gosvami and then after he departed Sri Jiva-Gosvami was then re-proofreading/correcting.  Or was it that the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu by Rupa Gosvami had not been printed and Sri Jiva Gosvami was getting it ready by proof reading?  This is unclear to me. To finish: >In any case, I hope you'll feel always enlivened by reading >whichever editions of Srila Prabhupada's books you prefer. >And I hope you'll always buy them from the BBT and encourage >other devotees to do so. (See http://www.BBTonly.com.) BBTonly.com:  Of course the letter from Srila Prabhupada is very clear and easy for anyone to understand.  Even without this letter every serious devotee in ISKCON knows, only the BBT can print and that only BBT books should be brought. Although, as you mention above, I do hope you give us the choice of reading your changed editions or the original, with all it faults. The BBT should make both available to Temples to choose which editions they want to read and sell, is it not. I therefor make a personal request to the BBT Trustees that the unchanged editions be available, even at a higher cost.  I know we here in Jaipur would be happy to pay a little extra.  I add Bhima Prabhu and Jasomatinandan Prabhu as BBT Trustees for Inida.  I add Ananda Tirtha Prabhu as he runs BBT in India, I add Devakinandan Prabhu as he is our Co-Zonal Secretary for Rajasthan and I add Basu Ghosh Prabhu as he is an excellent editor. Your servant Pancaratna Dasa Temple President ISKCON Jaipur Chairman India Regional Governing Body 2010/2011. >Hare Krsna Maharaja, >PAMHO.  AGTSP. >Thank you for responding to not only my concerns but the deep felt concerns >of thousands and thousands of devotees, disciples and people of the world >about the changes to Srila Prabhupada's books. >There is no question of ever agreeing on you and Dravida's continuing >effort to prove your intellectual superiority above Prabhupada's.  I'm not >sure if it comes from your ethical background or just false ego but you >will no doubt be taken to task in your future life. >You got permission from the zonal acarya infamous 11 GBC's to change the >diacritical marks for around 100 misprints somewhere around 1980 which only >passed by one vote.  They gave you permission because they were so busy >offending other devotees that they just didn't want to deal with you. You >then took the liberty to make thousands and thousands of unauthorized >changes backing up their diluted agenda of the times. >Since then you have added added additional members to your disrespectful >team continuing to change words, sentence structure, meanings and the >contexts of Srila Prabhupada's realizations. I know you to be quite intelligent but why you don't see this as offensive to someone who is and was a cent percent pure devotee of Krsna is beyond my comprehension. If you believed in the words of His Divine Grace then you would understand that there must be a reaction for this egotistical nonsense. I'm sure you've been told this in countless ways in the past so I won't dwell on it here but as a old comrade in arms I would hope and pray that you do a rethink of your past actions and perhaps mellow in your old age. No one lives forever and Lord Krsna is in total charge of who and when a soul is ripped out of their body.  Even if rather untimely, like TKG! I won't read your defensive websites and counter you tit for tat.  You're way smarter in that department than I am and we could argue until the cows come home.  But please try and see that a lot of your changes have political innuendos influenced by the polluted GBC's of yesteryear's.  Anyone and everyone were mislead by their ruse as gurus but most of the older devotees have woken up by reading Srila Prabhupada's books. If you continue to change Prabhupada's words at least put yours or Dravidas name as the author and stop insulting your spiritual master. Your servant in service to Srila Prabhupada. Mahasrnga dasa --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Jayadvaita Swami <jsw...@pamho.net> wrote: > From: Jayadvaita Swami <jsw...@pamho.net> > Subject: Book changes > To: mahasrn...@yahoo.com > Cc: "Dravida (das) ACBSP (San Diego - USA)" <Dravid...@pamho.net>, "Ekanatha ACBSP" <eka...@gmail.com> > Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 12:41 PM > > > Dear Mahasrnga Prabhu,

> > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila

> Prabhupada. > > Thank you for your letter. Whether we agree or disagree on > any given topic, I'm happy to hear from you and remember > you. > > I've noted your point -- that editing after the author's > departure is "offensive and unethical" -- but I wonder on > what authority you say this. > > In academic circles, it is not at all considered unethical. > On the contrary, when responsibly done it is considered a > valuable service. (See http://www.bbtedit.com/node/120.) > > And the history of our sampradaya shows editing of the work > of a departed acarya done even by such an illustrious figure > as Srila Jiva Gosvami. (See http://www.bbtedit.com/node/121.) > > Srila Prabhupada instructed his editors to make sure his > books were free from mistakes. > >    See > >       http://www.bbtedit.com/node/20 >       http://www.bbtedit.com/node/10 >       http://www.bbtedit.com/node/260 > > And he never said "Until I leave this world." (See > http://www.bbtedit.com/node/13.) > > I suppose we are supposed to believe that the author > "approved" of all the editorial errors left in his books at > the time of his departure. This is a belief I respectfully > choose not to share. (See http://www.bbtedit.com/node/203.) > > In any case, I hope you'll feel always enlivened by reading > whichever editions of Srila Prabhupada's books you prefer. > And I hope you'll always buy them from the BBT and encourage > other devotees to do so. (See http://www.BBTonly.com.) > > On this anniversary of Srila Prabhupada's appearance: May > we always feel a sense of friendship and a common cause in > Srila Prabhupada's service. > > I look forward to having your company again, at the > earliest. > > Hoping this finds you in good health, > > Your servant, > > Jayadvaita Swami > --------------------------- > www.jswami.info > > > >> > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject:     book changes > > Date:     Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:02:24 > -0700 (PDT) > > From:     mahasrnga dasa <mahasrn...@yahoo.com> > > To:     Ekanatha <eka...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > Hare Krsna Ekanatha prabhu, > > > > Could you please pass this along to JAS and Dravida > prabhus.

> > > > The books are being edited by the BBT in the author's > name, meaning that whatever is being changed or added is > supposed to be accepted as the author's work. As we all know, this > is highly offensive and unethical since the author is no longer > here to approve of such changes. However, in the case of > citations, individual writers are at complete liberty to > summarize works by an author providing that individual use the proper > punctuation marks intended for that very purpose. This law of > writing indicates to any learned audience that the quote being cited is > not in entirety and that the provided source should thereby > be consulted. > >

> > Thank you and I hope all is well. > > > > Maha

[Pratyatosa]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

First answer my previous question: Do you claim to be following all of the orders of Srila Prabhupada perfectly?

No.

Now the ball's in your court.

What did you, Srimukunda, and Damaghosa say to Srila Prabhupada when each of you reached the age of 50 years? Did you thumb your noses at him saying, "None of your disciples follow ALL of your instructions, so is it OK if we simply pretend that you never said, over and over again, 'Take vanaprastha at age 50?'"

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Taking vanaprastha has nothing to do with what ISKCON is doing or what the Prabhupadanugas are doing. Vanaprastha literally means, "Go to the forest." This can be done alone or with one's wife. It traditionally means wearing tree bark for clothing, sleeping under a tree, and living on the fruits, roots, and other edibles that grow naturally in the forest. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a "functioning society of varnasrama."

But in a letter to Ekayani dd, Srila Prabhupada wrote:

"...best thing is to go to the forest...But, then no one will see them and how our preaching work will go on?"

Now, however, we have unlimited preaching opportunities on the Internet, so, for the first time, it is possible to do both!

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

No matter how many quotes you may come up with, Yasoda nandana Prabhu, the fact remains: Srila Prabhupada said over and over again that his male disciples should take vanaprastha (mandatory retirement) at age 50. Yet, most of his disciples, when they reach the age of 50, simply pretend that Srila Prabhupada was whistling in the wind!

Vanaprastha is an extremely drastic change to one's life style and yet they go on with their lives without making any changes whatsoever! The way in which these aged disciples of Srila Prabhupada go on with their householder lifestyle is outrageous. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can tell that they are fragrantly violating Srila Prabhupada's repeated instructions. They might as well walk around drinking a beer and then proudly post a video of that illicit activity on the Internet! How is that any different from what Vidura, Srimukunda, and Damaghosa are so proudly doing?

At the very least they should be a little bit humble and admit that they are not brahmanas or ksatriyas, and that they are therefore not qualified to take vanaprastha.

Ys, Ptd

[parijata]

The suspense is building Hasti - please don't keep us waiting too much longer!! :-D

----- Original Message -----

From: charles dowson

To: vidu...@hotmail.com ; Sri Mukunda Prabhu ; Rochon Prabhu

Cc: a.kris...@hkm-group.org ; agha...@hotmail.com ; amey...@gmail.com ; Anuttama Devi Dasi ; b...@iskconbangalore.org ; b...@hkm-group.org ; Kanea Prabhu ; c...@iskconbangalore.org ; das...@yahoo.com.sg ; dasd...@aol.com ; Gadai Dasa ; gaura...@gmail.com ; gokul...@gmail.com ; gopal...@hotmail.com ; Prabhupadanugas web site ; iskconban...@gmail.com ; istag...@googlegroups.com ; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net ; jiva...@yahoo.com ; july9...@yahoo.com ; Kanhaiya Dasa Anudasa ; Varaha Prabhu ; krishn...@hotmail.com ; Madhuha Prabhu ; rs.madh...@gmail.com ; Mahadana devi Dasi ; mahasrn...@yahoo.com ; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk ; Gopinatha Acharya Prabhu ; m...@iskconbanglore.org ; nalin...@aol.com ; nimai51...@yahoo.com ; nimai...@yahoo.com ; Nityananda Rama dasa ; Parijata Devi Dasi ; Pratyatosa Prabhu ; prtha_d...@hotmail.com ; Puranjan Prabhu ; Radha Govinda Swami ; Saksi Prabhu ; Srimaya Prabhu ; stellas...@yahoo.com ; suvy...@gmail.com ; Ugresa Prabhu ; Upadesamrta Prabhu ; urdh...@aol.com ; prabhu...@hotmail.com ; va...@hkm-group.org ; Yasodanandan Prabhu 1 ; Pradumna Prabhuji

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:12 AM

Subject: RE: Has this George Smith even read our book?

Rochon and the Sun are a washout...like gravel situated at the bottom of the stream of gold...swifts of fine soil infected with dead insects and twigs. Nothing there with life but bacteria. The real Sun is evaporating the polluted waters of wasted energetic pulses. There is nothing left to respond to because there is no real challenge but how to waste more time effectively and when we do that it is like slam dunking with a mannequin as an opponent. TAAA DAAA!  ROCANA DASA!! :)
 
BY the way, ROCANA DASA...I am in review of my Return Of Truth short story and preparing for the final chapter...I had promised it to the SamSun first but lo and behold you have banned me from your sacred script! So it will go to everyone else...for free to re-edit, correct, etc. but not for you. It is my first attempt at a short story with massive mistakes but it is honest. You and the Sam Sun's readers shall not pass!!!

It is the first known Hare Krsna end of the world sci fi story with Srila Prabhupada and his disciples as the hero's!! 
 
Srila Prabhupada's servant, dasa dasa anudasa!
 
Hasti Gopala Dasa

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From: vidu...@hotmail.com
To: srimu...@yahoo.com
CC: has...@hotmail.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; agha...@hotmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; das...@yahoo.com.sg; dasd...@aol.com; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gokul...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; praty...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; rgswa...@yahoo.com; saks...@tpg.com.au; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; urdh...@aol.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; yasod...@yahoo.com; yoho...@yahoo.com; vidu...@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Has this George Smith even read our book?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 22:50:13 -0600

Haribol Srimukunda and all Prabhu's here. pamho. AGTSP!

This recent article from Rocana is laughable. All of his articles are, but this one especially. Accusing Yasoda of claiming to be one of the "liberated sages"? Seriously? That's all Rocana could come up with? Rocana said:

In examining this part of Yasodanandana's position paper we read in support of the quoted verse above what he offers to us as being Srila Prabhupada's purport, but which is actually not, although had I not double-checked, I would have failed to discover this fact and accepted that it was. 

Let's take a look at this quote that he's rambling about:

"There cannot be mistakes, illusion, cheating, or imperfect perception in the words of liberated sages... Srila Vyasadeva revealed these statements after perfect realization, and therefore they are perfect, for liberated sages like Vyasadeva never commit errors in their rhetorical arrangements... Since the Personality of Godhead and His plenary portions and self-realized souls are all transcendentally situated, they cannot be misled by such deficiencies "(10) Adi 2.86

Now let's take a look at the definition of the common punctuation mark put into use in the above quote known as the ellipses, or series of dots:

noun (plural ellipses /-sēz/)

[Punya Das]

tell the gbc not to change my books  Prabhupada chose the cover Prabhupada choose pictures Prabhupada lectured on the verses Prabhupada DoNotChange my books     you say we can read either versions But that is not the issue  what is being distributed in mass to the conditioned souls  just the fact that you changed the cover is enough for me to believe that you have crossed the line . one of  vaisaseka team told me as he swapped the books in the berkley temple book stand taking down the orginals and replacing with the new version that only these new books should be distributed in the temples there are to many mistakes in the old ones  did any body ever consider doing an opinion poll with the devottes who dedicated their lives to book distribution js is a great soul but we all make mistakes   time will tell   personally spent my first 12 years fully engaged in book distribution and if i ever have the opportunity to serve srila prabhupada in that capacity again it wont be with it wont be with Js and vaisaseka mad elephants  Do NOT Change my books  hey Vaisaseka what part of that dont you understand history books will show this as the biggest mistake ever made

--

[Vidura Das]

I asked first  :)

So the ball was in your court before it was in mine!

Besides, your question is based on the assumption that you have followed every single one of Srila Prabhupada's orders perfectly and still are, regardless of it's practicality. Kindly confirm this assumption so that we may move on.

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:12:47 -0400

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?
To: vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Vidura Das]

"Tapas or austerity is especially meant for the retired life. One should not remain a householder throughout his whole life; he must always remember that there are four divisions of life,brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So after gṛhastha, householder life, one should retire. If one lives for a hundred years, he should spend twenty-five years in student life, twenty-five in householder life, twenty-five in retired life and twenty-five in the renounced order of life. These are the regulations of the Vedic religious discipline. A man retired from household life must practice austerities of the body, mind and tongue. That is tapasyā. The entire varṇāśrama-dharma society is meant for tapasyā."

Bg 16: The Divine and Demoniac Natures

"The scientific system of varṇāśrama-dharma divides the human life into four divisions of occupation and four orders of life. The four orders of life as brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī are to be followed by all, irrespective of the occupational division."

The Pandavas Retire Timely : SB 1.15.39

"This training can be begun at any stage of life, or even a few seconds before death, but the usual procedure is for one to get the training from very early life, from the stage of brahmacarya,and gradually progress to the gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa orders of life. The institution which gives such training is called varṇāśrama-dharma, or the system of sanātana-dharma, the best procedure for making the human life perfect."

The First Step in God Realization : SB 2.1.15

 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:29:17 -0400

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?

To: ange...@yahoo.com
CC: vidu...@hotmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Vidura Das]

The order to take sannyasa was just as present as the order to take vanaprastha. Therefore to argue about vanaprastha is tantamount to arguing against taking sannyasa. Yasodanandana Prabhu then gave quotes which truly defined what sannyas really is. You chose to ignore those quotes as if they did not apply to the argument at hand. However, they very much do. You are defeated. You can go on rambling but the "fact remains" that you have ignored evidence from Srila Prabhupada.

"Prabhupāda: "I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a śūdra. I am not a brahmacārī, I am not a gṛhastha, I am not a vānaprastha..." Because our Vedic civilization is based on varṇa and āśrama. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied all these things: "I do not belong to any one of these." Then what is Your position? Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: [Cc. Madhya 13.80] "I am eternally servant of the maintainer of the gopīs." That means Kṛṣṇa. And He preached: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is our identification. We are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa."

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 4.1 -- Bombay, March 21, 1974

So this is... Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, those who have decided to serve Kṛṣṇa only, they are no longer in the categories of sva-dharma, the bodily sva-dharma, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, vānaprastha. He is transcendental. That is confirmed in every śāstra. So so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious, so long our bodily concept of life is not completely eradicated, we must follow the sva-dharma of the body. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, ity ādi. But when actually advanced, that is mahā-bhāgavata. We should not imitate that, but our process is the more we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we become transcendental to this bodily concept of life, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

[...]

So anyone who engages himself without any reservation to the service of the Lord, he is not within the category of these eight varṇāśrama-dharma. He's transcendental. Sa brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. So as a Kṛṣṇa consciousness person, he can act like anything by the order of Kṛṣṇa. He can act as a brāhmaṇa, he can act as a śūdra, because his main business is to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. He's no longer within the category of this sva-dharma.

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 2.31 -- London, September 1, 1973

 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:53:45 -0400

Subject: Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

To: yasod...@yahoo.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; dasd...@aol.com
CC: vidu...@hotmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[tim lee]

Srila Prabhupada suspended sannyasa. I am not for varnaprastha, sannyasa or anything else where the women will be at the mercy of an uncertain situation and / or until the women of ISKCON have some secure protections, at the moment this is almost non-existing i.e. women who are not protected suffer and are exploited -- sometimes terribly. There needs to be a a system for their protection if the man is going to become renounced, either partially or fully. ys pd

[Pratyatosa]

When Srila Prabhupada was urged by his Gaudiya Math godbrothers to take vanaprastha, whether or not the "women of [the Gaudiya Math] had some secure protections" was not an issue. He followed the Vedic system of turning the protection of his wife over to his grownup sons. We should try to follow his example.

Do you think that many of the female members  of ISKCON were not being mislead, exploited, and abused at the time that Srila Prabhupada was physically present? And yet Srila Prabhupada never said that there could be any exceptions to his rule for all of his male disciples to take vanaprastha at age 50.

If a wife has the bad karma of having an irresponsible husband who didn't give her any sons capable of protecting her, then she can accept the austerities of the husband and stay with him during his vanaprastha years.

In any case, taking vanaprastha has absolutely nothing to do with what ISKCON is doing or what the ritviks are doing.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Then it must be good to be "off one's rocker" because my #1 website, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, gets more than 100 visits a day! Sometimes it gets more than 200 visits in one day!

On the other hand, whereas the ISKCON temple there in Seattle gets hundreds of guests for Janmastami, Damagosha's temple only gets about 10! He started his temple well over a decade ago. Why has he made so little progress? Could it be because he unapologetically refuses to follow Srila Prabhupada's "diacritics henceforward" order? Could it be because he unapologetically refuses to follow Srila Prabhupada's "vanaprastha at age 50" order? Could it be because he married a karmi? (Why would any devotee man do such a thing unless his motivation was to have the karmi standard of "illicit sex on demand?")

Ys, Ptd

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Srimukunda <srimu...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hare Krishna,

He can insult me, but why bring such a great devotee such as Damagosha into  this?  He's off his rocker, no wonder here why he beat his wife with a belt thinking it was Prabhupadas desire.

Ys 

Srimukunda dasa

[Pratyatosa]

What I do or do not do has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I am simply a messenger of Srila Prabhupada's crystal clear instruction to all of his male disciples: "Vanaprastha at age 50." (paraphrased)

Why are you refusing to answer one simple question?:

What did you, Srimukunda, and Damaghosa say to Srila Prabhupada when each of you reached the age of 50 years? Did you thumb your noses at him saying, "None of your disciples follow ALL of your instructions, so is it OK if we simply pretend that you never said, over and over again, 'Take vanaprastha at age 50?'"

Ys, Ptd

[Bhakta Mark]

Exactly.

Case in point, is Pratyatosa's wife Urmila. Her sons are unable to
protect her from her false pride and desires for garnering self-
destructive forms of adoration and distinction.

She sought to become a rubber stamped Diksa Guru (her rationalizations
as to why having no bearing on the fact she decided to go ahead with
it).

She was exploited by the pro-feminism/equality faction of Iskcon
leadership who prayed on her womanly weakness when they invited her to
break multiple rules of etiquette by sitting on the Vyasasana during
Morning Program in Mayapura giving a lecture to Sanyasis no less, and
she accepted.

And if these things are any indication of what she is doing as she
travels the world moving from one fawning group of admirers to
another, instead of staying at her son's home and cooking, cleaning,
and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted, I'd say
she is far from protected from the biggest danger a woman faces. Her
own false independence.

[Anuttama devi dasi]

If each of would try his/her best to do what we can to please our spiritual master and stop trying to deride what our godbrothers/godsisters are doing, we might be more likely to please Srila Prabhupada.

[Vidura Das]

One thing you don't understand about Srila Prabhupada is that He is very practical. The most important thing He pushed was to chant 16 rounds and read His books. Those are the most vital aspects of Krsna Consciousness. Those are our vows during initiation. We have to do what is practical. Suppose your wife didn't have any sons to watch over her? Suppose she lived in a city where she needs to work to pay her rent? Etc. Would you advise a husband to just drop everything and leave His wife broke without support, no where to go, no temple to go to - all because he insists on taking up the role of vanaprastha?

So to answer your question, if someone turns 50 and finds that it is not entirely practical to take vanaprastha due to His current situation, then i'm sure that I, or anyone else would try to explain that situation to Srila Prabhupada. Chanting 16 rounds is a whole different story. Of course, if by some amazing chance, chanting or reading was impossible to do for a disciple, then Srila Prabhupada would probably instruct that disciple to simply do some service. Obviously the order to chant 16 rounds and read His books daily would have to be put aside for that disciple. This is all based on practicality. So Pratyatosa, if you are able to take vanaprastha, leave your wife in good hands with her sons or other family or safe organization (excluding ISKCON of course because they are criminals), then you know what, good for you. But that's YOUR individual case. Others may not have that luxury or capability. Do you think that Srila Prabhupada wanted His sannyasi's to go and chastise everyone in or around there 60's who had not yet taken sannyasa? If they weren't chanting 16 rounds then, yes. But not because they couldn't take sannyasa! And don't you dare say that sannyasa has nothing to do with it because vanaprastha wholly revolves around sannyasa. Which actually reminds me that you totally ignored my other question. I'll repeat it:

The order to take sannyasa was just as present as the order to take vanaprastha. Therefore to argue about vanaprastha is tantamount to arguing against taking sannyasa. Yasodanandana Prabhu then gave quotes which truly defined what sannyas really is. You chose to ignore those quotes as if they did not apply to the argument at hand. However, they very much do. You are defeated. You can go on rambling but the "fact remains" that you have ignored evidence from Srila Prabhupada.

With that said,

I'd like you to show me the places where Srila Prabhupada so explicitly orders that all of His disciples must, without fail, take vanaprastha.

Your Servant,

Vidura Das
 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:18:37 -0400

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?

To: vidu...@hotmail.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; dasd...@aol.com

CC: pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[narasimha stewart]

Dear Godbrothers,

 

Please accept my obeisance. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

It seems highly improper to fault Vaisnavas for not properly following the Varnashrama program which prescribes four ashrams and ideally vanaprastha at age 50 or "slightly older". Never saw any instruction wherein Srila Prabhupada demanded that all his male disciples foramally accept the vanaprastha order at age 50 or else go to hell for disobeying. Even Prabhupada, whose example is perfect, did not do so immediately at age 50 or as far as we know, formally.

 

Also, who can judge who is really a vanaprastha or sannyasi? As Yasoda nandana's quotes from Prabhupada below show and is also found throughout the books, real renunciation is to use everything in Krshna consciousness. Who will be the judge unless we are living with that person night and day?

 

To fault a devotee like Damaghosa for preaching regularly but not getting big results seems offensive. Prabhupada never insisted that everyone be a big preacher and get  big results. What is the use of getting big crowds for eating a feast improperly cooked and offered?

 

We are looking for real devotees to join the real mission of Prabhupada. Many bogus religious leaders gather big flocks because they are peddling something cheap. Diamond buyers are rare. Walmart buyers are common.

 

It is also offensive to accuse someone as being a karmi who is engaged without pay or recognition in the service of the Deity, such as is Damaghosa's good wife.  

 

It also offensive to deride the sincere service of many devotees based on ones personal likes and dislikes regarding editorial policy. Srila Prabhupada Siddhanta was an effort of dozens of devotees and we invited as many devotees as possible to participate in its creation.  

\

It also is an offense to accuse a devotee of marrying for the sake of illicit sex. Can we understand all the circumstances and motives?

 

All this seems like the talk of those who can't speak philosophically or quote scriptural conclusions.

 

Vanaprastha and sannyasa may sometimes be helpful for preaching but the process for going back to Godhead in this age is chanting Hare Krishna and accepting the bona fide spiritual master as ones savior and guide and guru. This is the real conclusion. Unfortunately devotees have been misled into believing they cannot accept Prabhupada as their initiating guru. They are thus not learning to hear from Srila Prabhupada exclusively and with rapt attention. It would offensive not to point out these facts.

 

We may all have personal shortcomings, particularly from the point of view of strict varna ashrama. This is kali yuga. Real va is hard to follow individually and alone without the help of a real society of devotees and organized communities.

 

But no one is barred from speaking the truth and chanting Hare Krishna. It is useless to say, "Because you are not perfect, you cannot preach."

 

We should rather say, "Because you are not perfect you should not present yourself as a guru, becuse this is very offensive and destructive and causes all hope of establishing va to go to hell. Such cheating and false pretense is never auspicous, even though you are acquiring many less intelligent followers."

 

Most devotees are struggling to follow the really essential instructions regarding the process of devotional service. Partly, at least, this due to the fall of the iskcon institutions and their policy of banning Prabhupada's disciples and aspiring disciples.

 

I suggest everyone in this email string carefully read SPS and do a follow up study of Prabhupada's books based on these published quotes.

 

The main part of this book 95 percent simply states postive facts and does not point the finger at anyone or any group. There is only two place wherein we warn of the sever deviations that have ruined the maya iskcon.

 

You want big results as a test? Look at ISKCON Bangalore. This is the real ISKCON. Let us all strive to cooperate with Srila Prabhupada's sincere disciples, whether they are big preachers or not.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that the danger with attacking everyone's faults is that eventually one may offend a Vaisnava.

 

Hope you are all well.

 

ys, Narasimha das

[Vidura Das]

Very nice Prabhu. Well said.

Your Servant,

Vidura Das
 

---

Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:48:49 -0700

Subject: Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

From: gokul...@gmail.com
To: praty...@gmail.com
CC: srimu...@yahoo.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; dasd...@aol.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

Hare Krsna Mark prabhu, All glories to Srila Prabhupada. PAMFO I hope your sadhana and bhajan are going well. Replying your email in one aspect, nothing to do with your comments regarding Urmila prabhu: Just so you'll know, in certain place, under the jurisdiction of certain people in positions of authority within ISKCON, women who were submissive and surrendered, cooking, cleaning, etc., were getting battered around. They were not feminists, but surrendered and submissive servants, following Srila Prabhupada's instructions.  For women to live according to the behavior designated for women in the Vedas, this also requires that men live according to the behavior designated for men in the Vedas, otherwise if women are living according to the Vedic criteria, but men aren't, then you have exploitation and abuse of women. I don't know if you were living in any of the ISKCON temples pre 1977, but such abuses were going on. And no one here should MISunderstand, as I am NOT putting ANY "blame" on Srila Prabhupada, because Srila Prabhupada taught us PERFECTLY. The problem is that there were certain people who either did not understand properly, or who were just out and out SICKOS, and some people were "preaching" the WRONG thing(s)... In my own personal experience within ISKCON - I can't speak for others - I did NOT see any "feministic philosophy" during these years. (Then I was sent to the African continent for so many years to render service, so whatever was happening elsewhere in ISKCON, I have no idea.) Thus, I don't know if you have any awareness of the exploitations and abuses going on within those years, through which feminism in regards to ISKCON/Krsna devotees may have arisen.  There was a LOT of abuse within ISKCON of children and women, and MANY HORRIBLE things being said AND DONE!!! in these regards, and a LOT of people have been VERY!!! TRAUMATIZED!!! by it. When Srila Prabhupada was asked how one could tell a Vaisnava, Srila Prabhupada replied that a Vaisnava is a perfect gentleman. For women to be proper ladies, the men need to be proper gentlemen. If one expects women to be (live as Vedic) women, but feels that men can do whatever they want (and not live according to the criteria given in the Vedas), then you have insanity. May we be safely situated under the shelter of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet, Those of our Guru Varga, the Vaisnavas, and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Your servant, B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna --- On Fri, 8/26/11, Bhakta Mark <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

-- You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

Agreed

Your servant, B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

--- On Fri, 8/26/11, Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: istag...@googlegroups.com Cc: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com

-- You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[Bhaktatraveler]

Nice new age image that has no real answer to a community effort, nor does it support or portend by nature to bring us together. Like it was given to us from Prabhupada with the explanations of DVD. We are to live together as a team divided by guna and karma.

It is not all one, we are not all equal in service. Some will lead(giving instructions, chastising, praising) others will follow. When your(devotee community) ready to follow this purport with Srila Prabhupada as the head brahmana then you will have progress. Otherwise what you have today as a movement will not improve. I have said this for 38 yrs, still no one listens the messenger of genius(Srila Prabhupada). To busy with anything else except DVD.

SB. 8.2.30

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.

---

From: Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com>

To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 12:09 PM

Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

If each of would try his/her best to do what we can to please our spiritual master and stop trying to deride what our godbrothers/godsisters are doing, we might be more likely to please Srila Prabhupada.

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

Dear Puranjana prabhu, Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. PAMFO I hope your sadhana and bhajan are going well. What you're saying regarding devotee women NOT being protected is THE FACT!!! in SO MANY cases. And we all know that Srila Prabhupada was most practical in implementing Krsna consciousness, doing so according to time, place, circumstance. I know - but don't know where is the purport, so maybe someone can look and find it on the Vedabase - that Srila Prabhupada wrote in one purport that I saw (I believe in Bhagavad-Gita?) that if someone is following Krsna consciousness properly it is not necessary for one to leave the grhastha ashram. In terms of time, place, circumstance: Considering the LACK of maturity, and the SO MANY MISunderstandings that are there, and get propagated under the "banner" of so-called "Krsna consciousness," better a husband (if this is his desire) stay with his wife to see to her protection and on-going Krsna consciousness. (We've even see men who leave their wives, take sannyas, then end up having sex with other women, sometimes getting married to a different woman and sometimes not (getting married, but still having sex as a "sannyasi").  So considering all the various factors, why a "problem" if a man chooses to stay with his wife, that he and she are both protected by this? Regarding vanaprastha" There are four stages of vanaprastha (vaikhanasa, valakhilya, audumbara and phenapa): One is when the husband and wife stay together but there is no (more) sexlife.

May we be safely situated under the shelter of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet, Those of our Guru Varga, the Vaisnavas, and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.

Your servant, B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

--- On Thu, 8/25/11, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: "Joseph Langevin" <yasod...@yahoo.com>, "sri m" <srimu...@yahoo.com>, "Damaghosa Dasa" <dasd...@aol.com>, "Pratyatosa" <praty...@gmail.com> Cc: "Vidura Das" <vidu...@hotmail.com>, "pari...@btinternet.com" <pari...@btinternet.com>, "lak...@webtv.net" <lak...@webtv.net>, "in...@prabhupadanugas.eu" <in...@prabhupadanugas.eu>, "kurmano...@live.com" <kurmano...@live.com>, "urdh...@aol.com" <urdh...@aol.com>, "a.kris...@hkm-group.org" <a.kris...@hkm-group.org>, "amey...@gmail.com" <amey...@gmail.com>, "anutt...@gmail.com" <anutt...@gmail.com>, "bangalore" <b...@iskconbangalore.org>, "brahm...@hotmail.com" <brahm...@hotmail.com>, "b...@hkm-group.org" <b...@hkm-group.org>, "chapa...@gmail.com" <chapa...@gmail.com>, "c...@iskconbangalore.org" <c...@iskconbangalore.org>, "gada...@yahoo.com" <gada...@yahoo.com>, "gaura...@gmail.com" <gaura...@gmail.com>, "gopal...@hotmail.com" <gopal...@hotmail.com>, "hasti gopal" <has...@hotmail.com>, "iskconban...@gmail.com" <iskconban...@gmail.com>, "istag...@googlegroups.com" <istag...@googlegroups.com>, "jaya gouranga" <jayagou...@sbcglobal.net>, "Jivadhara" <jiva...@yahoo.com>, "kanhaiya...@hotmail.com" <kanhaiya...@hotmail.com>, "khad...@wmconnect.com" <khad...@wmconnect.com>, "krishn...@hotmail.com" <krishn...@hotmail.com>, "madhu...@gmail.com" <madhu...@gmail.com>, "Madhusudhan" <rs.madh...@gmail.com>, "mahadh...@gmail.com" <mahadh...@gmail.com>, "mahasrn...@yahoo.com" <mahasrn...@yahoo.com>, "makevr...@gmail.com" <makevr...@gmail.com>, "m...@iskconbanglore.org" <m...@iskconbanglore.org>, "nalin...@aol.com" <nalin...@aol.com>, "Nimai" <nimai51...@yahoo.com>, "nimai...@yahoo.com" <nimai...@yahoo.com>, "nityanan...@gmail.com" <nityanan...@gmail.com>, "prtha_d...@hotmail.com" <prtha_d...@hotmail.com>, "srim...@yahoo.com" <srim...@yahoo.com>, "stella singh" <stellas...@yahoo.com>, "suvy...@gmail.com" <suvy...@gmail.com>, "ugre...@gmail.com" <ugre...@gmail.com>, "upade...@googlemail.com" <upade...@googlemail.com>, "vadi" <prabhu...@hotmail.com>, "va...@hkm-group.org" <va...@hkm-group.org>, "july9...@yahoo.com" <july9...@yahoo.com>, "gokul...@gmail.com" <gokul...@gmail.com>, ange...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 8:38 PM

Srila Prabhupada suspended sannyasa. I am not for varnaprastha, sannyasa or anything else where the women will be at the mercy of an uncertain situation and / or until the women of ISKCON have some secure protections, at the moment this is almost non-existing i.e. women who are not protected suffer and are exploited -- sometimes terribly. There needs to be a a system for their protection if the man is going to become renounced, either partially or fully. ys pd

--

[mark mclaughlin]

Deride.  Verbal form of the noun, Derision. Derision-  a : the use of ridicule or scorn to show contemptb : a state of being laughed at or ridiculed : a state of being derided. ********** Pointing out the faults in someone's presentation of siddhanta, by providing examples of where their own activities do not conform to the philosophy they are espousing, is not an example of derision. It is the depiction of objective fact in order to indicate their logical fallacy.  It could be considered chastisement since it is true.  It is certainly not derision. Pointing out such inconsistencies is actually meant to defend the faith of those participants and onlookers who may be swayed by the faulty presentation of siddhanta.  As such it IS a service to the Acarya whose instructions are being misrepresented. --- On Fri, 8/26/11, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

__._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE A bad score is 598. A bad idea is not checking yours, at freecreditscore.com.<img width="1" height="1" alt="" src="http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=ccd20e96-d009-11e0-8ce2-83cbc53abf95&T=1c9icfe2s%2fX%3d1314380133%2fE%3d1705075991%2fR%3dgroups%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dH%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d2629741454%2fH%3dY29udGVudD0iRmluYW5jZTtQaG90b3M7RXZlbnRzO0dvO01haWw7QnJpZWZjYXNlO0Jvb2ttYXJrO0hvdGpvYnM7UG9kY2FzdHM7TWVzc2VuZ2VyOyIgZGlzYWJsZXNodWZmbGluZz0iMSIgc2VydmVJZD0iY2NkMjBlOTYtZDAwOS0xMWUwLThjZTItODNjYmM1M2FiZjk1IiBzaXRlSWQ9IjQ0NTI1NTEiIHRTdG1wPSIxMzE0MzgwMTMzMDcxOTM4IiA-%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d28228962&U=13ctsr6ir%2fN%3dcW.0OtBDRqo-%2fC%3d791726.14818010.14570270.10835568%2fD%3dMKP1%2fB%3d6449876%2fV%3d1"> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . __,_._,___

[Pratyatosa]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'd like you to show me the places where Srila Prabhupada so explicitly orders that all of His disciples must, without fail, take vanaprastha.

1. Bring up VedaBase 2003.

2. Hit the F2 key.

3. Enter the following (including the quotes):

"fifty years"  vanaprastha

4. You get 36 hits.

5. Click "OK" and check out the hits.

6. Repeat the above with:

"50 years"  vanaprastha

7. You get 2 more hits, both saying, "...after 50 years of life one has to take to Vanaprastha, ..."

Ys, Ptd

[Srimukunda]

Hare Krishna,

What he fails to realize is that weare living in vastly different circumstances, than when made these instructions,  that's why he is a dangerous cult member, unable to think on his own.

Ys 

Srimukunda dasa

From the mind of Michael Sandoval via iPhone 

[Bhakta Mark]

Mother, I was making a point in the context of this discussion, and by
way of explanation allow me to make a distinction here.

If there were to be a true feminist, they would do as you suggest and
try and reform men and women simultaneously.

However, the feminist/equal rights cadre who I refer to are those who,
for selfish promotion, suggest to the downtrodden women, that they can
and should do the duties of men, be independent of men, and that there
is ultimately no difference between the sexes.

These so called proponents of feminism/equal rights espouse such
options because the are incapable themselves of acting properlsy, and
cannot arrange a proper situation in which women would be encouraged
and able to engage in activities which are most harmonious with their
psycho-physical natures.

Thus they garner the attention of the downtrodden and seem as heroes,
up to the point where the victim finds the halfway measures have led
to a dead end and they are no better off. New boss, slightly
different but ultimately just as bad as the new boss.

In conclusion, I am not disparaging or deriding Urmila, because I am
aware that she has been misguided. And THAT is my point in refuting
Pratyatosa's suggestion that she has been properly protected by her
sons by illustrating how she has not.

And the positive alternative I have always offered is for everyone to
read Srila Prabhupada's explicit instructions on how to live
communally by dividing according to natural quality and talent or work
(guna and karma or DVD), and then lets get together and do it to set
the example that others may or may not follow. Seriously. As
Pratyatosa das points out quite rightly, we already have plenty of
experience and examples of what not to do.

Hare Krsna



On Aug 26, 1:08 pm, "B. Radha-Govinda Swami \(ACBSP\)"

<rgswami...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hare Krsna Mark prabhu,
> All glories to Srila Prabhupada. PAMFO I hope your sadhana and bhajan are going well.
>
> Replying your email in one aspect, nothing to do with your comments regarding Urmila prabhu:
> Just so you'll know, in certain place, under the jurisdiction of certain people in positions of authority within ISKCON, women who were submissive and surrendered, cooking, cleaning, etc., were getting battered around. They were not feminists, but surrendered and submissive servants, following Srila Prabhupada's instructions. 
> For women to live according to the behavior designated for women in the Vedas, this also requires that men live according to the behavior designated for men in the Vedas, otherwise if women are living according to the Vedic criteria, but men aren't, then you have exploitation and abuse of women.
> I don't know if you were living in any of the ISKCON temples pre 1977, but such abuses were going on. And no one here should MISunderstand, as I am NOT putting ANY "blame" on Srila Prabhupada, because Srila Prabhupada taught us PERFECTLY. The problem is that there were certain people who either did not understand properly, or who were just out and out SICKOS, and some people were "preaching" the WRONG thing(s)...
> In my own personal experience within ISKCON - I can't speak for others - I did NOT see any "feministic philosophy" during these years. (Then I was sent to the African continent for so many years to render service, so whatever was happening elsewhere in ISKCON, I have no idea.)
> Thus, I don't know if you have any awareness of the exploitations and abuses going on within those years, through which feminism in regards to ISKCON/Krsna devotees may have arisen. 
> There was a LOT of abuse within ISKCON of children and women, and MANY HORRIBLE things being said AND DONE!!! in these regards, and a LOT of people have been VERY!!! TRAUMATIZED!!! by it.
> When Srila Prabhupada was asked how one could tell a Vaisnava, Srila Prabhupada replied that a Vaisnava is a perfect gentleman. For women to be proper ladies, the men need to be proper gentlemen. If one expects women to be (live as Vedic) women, but feels that men can do whatever they want (and not live according to the criteria given in the Vedas), then you have insanity.
>
> May we be safely situated under the shelter of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet, Those of our Guru Varga, the Vaisnavas, and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.
>
> Your servant,
>
> B. Radha-Govinda
>
> Hare Krsna
>

> --- On Fri, 8/26/11, Bhakta Mark <markmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[Srimukunda]

Just for laughs can you tell us again why you beat your wife with a belt?

From the mind of Michael Sandoval via iPhone 

On Aug 26, 2011, at 4:18 AM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

What I do or do not do has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I am simply a messenger of Srila Prabhupada's crystal clear instruction to all of his male disciples: "Vanaprastha at age 50." (paraphrased)

Why are you refusing to answer one simple question?:

What did you, Srimukunda, and Damaghosa say to Srila Prabhupada when each of you reached the age of 50 years? Did you thumb your noses at him saying, "None of your disciples follow ALL of your instructions, so is it OK if we simply pretend that you never said, over and over again, 'Take vanaprastha at age 50?'"

Ys, Ptd

[Joseph Langevin]

They are vaishnava prasthas.

---

From: Srimukunda <srimu...@yahoo.com>
To: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com>; Damaghosa Dasa <dasd...@aol.com>; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; Puranjana Prabhu <ange...@yahoo.com>; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasoda nandana <yasod...@yahoo.com>; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; bangalore <b...@iskconbangalore.org>; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; hasti gopal <has...@hotmail.com>; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jaya gouranga <jayagou...@sbcglobal.net>; Jivadhara <jiva...@yahoo.com>; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; Madhusudhan <rs.madh...@gmail.com>; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; Nimai <nimai51...@yahoo.com>; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stella singh <stellas...@yahoo.com>; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; vadi <prabhu...@hotmail.com>; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 5:07 PM

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?

[Joseph Langevin]

How does anyone know that we are not following a vanaprastha/preaching lifestyle?

ys ynd

---

From: Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com>
To: gokul...@gmail.com; praty...@gmail.com
Cc: Sri Mukunda <srimu...@yahoo.com>; yasoda nandana <yasod...@yahoo.com>; dasd...@aol.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; Puranjana Prabhu <ange...@yahoo.com>; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; bangalore <b...@iskconbangalore.org>; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; hasti gopal <has...@hotmail.com>; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jaya gouranga <jayagou...@sbcglobal.net>; Jivadhara <jiva...@yahoo.com>; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; Madhusudhan <rs.madh...@gmail.com>; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; Nimai <nimai51...@yahoo.com>; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stella singh <stellas...@yahoo.com>; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; vadi <prabhu...@hotmail.com>; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

[Vidura Das]

Thank you, Pratyatosa, for directing me to the many general statements by Srila Prabhupada where he describes the vedic system. Those quotes, however, cannot serve as an explicit instruction to His disciples when taking into consideration the many other quotes that Srila Prabhupada gives regarding our practical situation in relation to vanaprastha, sannyasa, etc. 

One reason why Srila Prabhupada has stated these general rules is because they go down in vedic civilization. Therefore it is only proper to bring His disciples to light on that matter:

"The only qualification you require, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted when he was talking with Rāmānanda Rāya, he was prescribing one after another different processes. Karma, jñāna, yoga, dhyanavista, bhakti, so many things, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was denying one after another, eho bāhya āge kaha, "This is not. This is external." He began from the varṇāśrama-dharma, because that is the beginning of civilization."

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 7th Canto -- Calcutta, March 7, 1972

And what else does Lord Caitanya say in that regard?

"So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that it is giving immediate lift to everyone to come to the transcendental platform, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. But general state is varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he was discussing with Rāmānanda Rāya, he first of all said, "What is the aim of life?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu (was) asking. So Rāmaṇanda Raya replied that "First of all to begin this varṇāśrama dharma." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra: "Yes, this is all right. But this is external. If you know something better, please tell me." So in this way, step by step, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... This varṇa, āśrama, dharma, karma-tyāga, karma-sannyāsa, and karma-miśra-bhakti, jñāna-miśra-bhakti—everything was described by Rāmānanda Rāya, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu not rejected. He said, "It is all right, but if you know something better..." Then at last, when Rāmānanda said... (aside:) Stop it. When Rāmaṇanda said that, quoting one verse from Śrīmad-Bhagavatam, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, that it doesn't matter what you are. You remain in your post. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Through the oral reception if you hear about Kṛṣṇa, then you become perfect. That is the statement."

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.1 -- Madras, January 2, 1976

"Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that there is no question of changing position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras. But in a regulative way there are steps, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti."

Room Conversation -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C

"This is the process. If we hear about Kṛṣṇa...Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain in your position. Don't change. Either you are brāhmaṇa or śūdra or gṛhastha or sannyāsī, it doesn't matter. But you hear about Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. This is the first-class process."  

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.30 -- Bombay, November 30, 1974

"thāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain in your position, in your place. You do not require to change it."

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.4 -- Bombay, November 4, 1974

"You may be a brāhmaṇa, you may be kṣatriya, you may be śūdra, you may be sannyāsī, you may be so on, so on, you may be American, you may be Indian, whatever you may be, that doesn't matter. Remain in your place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Simply hear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ."

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.40 -- Los Angeles, June 6, 1976

"So if you become dear friend like Arjuna of Kṛṣṇa, or God, then in whatever position you remain, you are mahātmā, great soul. That is required. It is not that... In the Kali-yuga, in this age, it is very difficult to accept renounced order of life. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended that "You remain in your position—it doesn't matter—but become a mahātmā, great soul." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ manobhir prāyaśo jito ajita. The process is how to become mahātmā."

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 -- Johannesburg, October 22, 1975

 "One may stay in whichever āśrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyāsa."

The Elephant Gajendra's Crisis : SB 8.2.30 : Purport

Indian man: Is it right that all the responsibility should be cleared up before...

Prabhupāda: You cannot clear up all the responsibility. Therefore up to fiftieth year. After that, whatever is done, that's all. (Sanskrit) But our philosophy is there is no question of giving up this or taking up that. Simply take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. Either in family life or...

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1976, Toronto

---

Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:11:59 -0700
From: srimu...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?

To: yasod...@yahoo.com
CC: vidu...@hotmail.com; dasd...@aol.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; yasod...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Joseph Langevin]

Dear Pratyatosh et al

Kindly accept my obeisances

1) Fact:  Sri Mukunda dasa is not married. He lives very austere and is constantly preaching and distributing  books. As a further point of information, you may kindly note that he is not yet 50.

2) Fact :   As an additional  point of information, Damaghosa dasa is not married to a karmi. His wife is a devotee. I have met and spoken to her many times. She is engaged all day in serving the deities. They both are engaged in full time preaching and growing food to render service to the deities.

3) With regards to your statement :   "...Yet, most of his disciples, when they reach the age of 50, simply pretend that Srila Prabhupada was whistling in the wind! The way in which these aged disciples of Srila Prabhupada go on with their householder lifestyle is outrageous" 

I cannot speak for the other disciples and what they may or not be pretending, I do know that the devotees who are participating in the Hare Krishna Society, including Sri Mukunda, Damaghosa dasa, and yours truly, are engaged in preaching and distributing books, holding programs kirtans etc.

With all due respect, I respectfully suggest that you should not disparage Sri Mukunda and Damaghosa.  It is not only offensive but grossly inaccurate.

As for whether Damaghosa dasa is a brahmana, his deity worship and preaching speak for itself. He is an  exemplary fixed-up vaishnava brahman who has helped many devotees in their spiritual lives, and he is constantly preaching.

The devotees affiliated with HKS, and many other Prabhupada devotees, are also similarly engaged in distributing books, preaching and carrying Srila Prabhupada's mission whether they are grhasthas, v   ana prasthas (krishnaprasthas) or brahmacaris, and preaching the glories of Lord Krishna's pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada.

yena tena prakarena mannh krishna nivesayet

Someway or other, one should fix the mind upon Sri Krishna

NOD

Yours in Srila Prabhupada's service

With sincere regards for all your services to Srila Prabhupada.

Yasoda nandana dasa

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>; sri m <srimu...@yahoo.com>; Damaghosa Dasa <dasd...@aol.com>
Cc: Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com>; "pari...@btinternet.com" <pari...@btinternet.com>; "lak...@webtv.net" <lak...@webtv.net>; Puranjana Prabhu <ange...@yahoo.com>; "in...@prabhupadanugas.eu" <in...@prabhupadanugas.eu>; "kurmano...@live.com" <kurmano...@live.com>; "urdh...@aol.com" <urdh...@aol.com>; "a.kris...@hkm-group.org" <a.kris...@hkm-group.org>; "amey...@gmail.com" <amey...@gmail.com>; "anutt...@gmail.com" <anutt...@gmail.com>; bangalore <b...@iskconbangalore.org>; "brahm...@hotmail.com" <brahm...@hotmail.com>; "b...@hkm-group.org" <b...@hkm-group.org>; "chapa...@gmail.com" <chapa...@gmail.com>; "c...@iskconbangalore.org" <c...@iskconbangalore.org>; "gada...@yahoo.com" <gada...@yahoo.com>; "gaura...@gmail.com" <gaura...@gmail.com>; "gopal...@hotmail.com" <gopal...@hotmail.com>; hasti gopal <has...@hotmail.com>; "iskconban...@gmail.com" <iskconban...@gmail.com>; "istag...@googlegroups.com" <istag...@googlegroups.com>; jaya gouranga <jayagou...@sbcglobal.net>; Jivadhara <jiva...@yahoo.com>; "kanhaiya...@hotmail.com" <kanhaiya...@hotmail.com>; "khad...@wmconnect.com" <khad...@wmconnect.com>; "krishn...@hotmail.com" <krishn...@hotmail.com>; "madhu...@gmail.com" <madhu...@gmail.com>; Madhusudhan <rs.madh...@gmail.com>; "mahadh...@gmail.com" <mahadh...@gmail.com>; "mahasrn...@yahoo.com" <mahasrn...@yahoo.com>; "makevr...@gmail.com" <makevr...@gmail.com>; "m...@iskconbanglore.org" <m...@iskconbanglore.org>; "nalin...@aol.com" <nalin...@aol.com>; Nimai <nimai51...@yahoo.com>; "nimai...@yahoo.com" <nimai...@yahoo.com>; "nityanan...@gmail.com" <nityanan...@gmail.com>; "prtha_d...@hotmail.com" <prtha_d...@hotmail.com>; "srim...@yahoo.com" <srim...@yahoo.com>; stella singh <stellas...@yahoo.com>; "suvy...@gmail.com" <suvy...@gmail.com>; "ugre...@gmail.com" <ugre...@gmail.com>; "upade...@googlemail.com" <upade...@googlemail.com>; vadi <prabhu...@hotmail.com>; "va...@hkm-group.org" <va...@hkm-group.org>; "july9...@yahoo.com" <july9...@yahoo.com>; "gokul...@gmail.com" <gokul...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

1. My wife's actions have been approved by her 2 sons.

2. Women are always to be considered innocent. Please don't be so hard on her.

3. When you are a member of an organization, such as ISKCON, you have to follow the rules of the organization. To not do so would be hypocrisy. My wife is simply following the directions of the ISKCON GBC.

4. You obviously don't understand Srila Prabhupada very well:

"Prabhupada personally asked women to give class and lead kirtans in front of sannyasis, in front of him, in India, and in the West. He consistently wrote that women should be preachers and give class. He never said or practiced anything differently." (Urmila Devi Dasi)

"The nursery school program is very good. That is good that the mothers are being freed to increase their devotional service. It is not that women should only produce children, but they are meant for advancing in devotion." (Letter to: Jayatirtha  --  Bombay 20 November, 1975)

"...since both the boys and the girls are being trained to become preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Krsna consciousness. Therefore, to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. These jealous fools who criticize the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satisfied with their own foolishness because they cannot think of how to spread Krsna consciousness by adopting ways and means that are favorable for this purpose. Their stereotyped methods will never help spread Krsna consciousness. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture those who strayed from Krsna consciousness." purport CC Adi 7.31-32

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, <http://rtvik.com/>, <http://pratyatosa.com/>, <http://feedacow.com/>, <http://llbest.com/>

[Pratyatosa]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com> wrote:

How does anyone know that we are not following a vanaprastha/preaching lifestyle?

Vanaprasthas do not:

1 ... maintain a house, temple, farm, or preaching center.

2. ... maintain a car or even drive one.

3. ... grow a garden.

4. ... work at a job or business.

All 4 of the above are the business of grhasthas.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Narasimha Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

You are correct. There are many very successful ritvik preaching projects:

1. ISKCON Bangalore.

2. Srila Prabhupada's MP3 CDs.

3. Srila Prabhupada's DVDs.

4. http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/

5. http://harekrsna.org/

6. http://causelessmercy.com/

Now, the intelligent thing to do is to give up the projects which are simply an embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada such as HKS and PSS. It's no longer the 60s/70s. Starting a temple in America which grows larger and larger by leaps and bounds is no longer possible. Therefore, why beat our heads against the wall, trying to start an alternative to ISKCON when it's impossible? Better to try something else or to join the ritvik projects which are successful.

BTW, I could use some help with <http://causelessmercy.com/a/>.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:48 PM, narasimha stewart <gokul...@gmail.com> wrote:

Narasimha

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Yasoda nandana Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I have tried to answer your points below.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Pratyatosh et al

Kindly accept my obeisances

1) Fact:  Sri Mukunda dasa is not married. He lives very austere and is constantly preaching and distributing  books. As a further point of information, you may kindly note that he is not yet 50.

Then what is he? A brahmacari? Starting a preaching center is not the business of a brahmacari. It's grhasta business.

2) Fact :   As an additional  point of information, Damaghosa dasa is not married to a karmi. His wife is a devotee. I have met and spoken to her many times. She is engaged all day in serving the deities. They both are engaged in full time preaching and growing food to render service to the deities.

If she is a devotee, then what is her spiritual name? Who is her guru?

3) With regards to your statement :   "...Yet, most of his disciples, when they reach the age of 50, simply pretend that Srila Prabhupada was whistling in the wind! The way in which these aged disciples of Srila Prabhupada go on with their householder lifestyle is outrageous" 

I cannot speak for the other disciples and what they may or not be pretending, I do know that the devotees who are participating in the Hare Krishna Society, including Sri Mukunda, Damaghosa dasa, and yours truly, are engaged in preaching and distributing books, holding programs kirtans etc.

With all due respect, I respectfully suggest that you should not disparage Sri Mukunda and Damaghosa.  It is not only offensive but grossly inaccurate.

As for whether Damaghosa dasa is a brahmana, his deity worship and preaching speak for itself. He is an  exemplary fixed-up vaishnava brahman who has helped many devotees in their spiritual lives, and he is constantly preaching.

The devotees affiliated with HKS, and many other Prabhupada devotees, are also similarly engaged in distributing books, preaching and carrying Srila Prabhupada's mission whether they are grhasthas, v   ana prasthas (krishnaprasthas) or brahmacaris, and preaching the glories of Lord Krishna's pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada.

A real brahmana takes vanaprastha at age 50 like his guru ordered him to do. As soon as he refuses to obey that instruction, he ceases to be a brahmana. Sudras are not qualified to take vanaprastha, so why doesn't he simply be a little humble and admit that he's a sudra?

BTW, when I first pointed out to you and the other members of the HKS that Srila Prabhupada ordered that anything published on paper in his name must include the Sanskrit diacritics, there was no sign or humility. Why? Why no apology? Why no explanation? Why simply ad hominem attacks designed to harm my reputation?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

Hare Krsna Mark prabhu,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. PAMFO I hope your sadhana and bhajan are going well.

The Vedas, fully perfect, are given from Krsna, also included, the psychology regarding the "wiring" of both male and female, and thus the different duties based on such different "wiring," (of course with individual personality taken into account). If all of us (as followers of Srila Prabhupada) were to be following what Krsna has given, there would be the perfect balance on all levels. As we know, there are many male and female devotees who are so off, coming from their desire to control over others. Having served within ISKCON for so many years, I've had the (nasty) experiences of having to live with (and sustain) the abusiveness of both male and female controllers (in positions of authority) under whose control I was subordinate to, as have many other devotees. Regardless of whether its a man or woman who is a control freak, and acts on their tendencies in a wrong way, including "preaching" wrongly to others on this basis, there is going to be trouble. It is because of the "offness" of both male and female "devotees" who were as off as they were, that ISKCON is in the state it is. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said to string the verse trinad api sunicena... around our neck, which we know has still not been understood by so many of both males and females who have come to Srila Prabhupada, and are still causing harm to others. May we somehow be safely situated under the shelter of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet, Those of our Guru Varga, the Vaisnavas, and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. With love,

Your servant, B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

--- On Fri, 8/26/11, Bhakta Mark <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>. -- You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

[Vidura Das]

Just see, he is defeated. He ignores all the given quotes as if they didn't exist. 

"As for detachment from children, wife and home, it is not meant that one should have no feeling for these. They are natural objects of affection, but when they are not favorable to spiritual progress, then one should not be attached to them. The best process for making the home pleasant is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If one is in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can make his home very happy because this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very easy. One need only chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, accept the remnants of foodstuffs offered to Kṛṣṇa, have some discussion on books like Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and engage oneself in Deity worship. These four will make one happy. One should train the members of his family in this way. The family members can sit down morning and evening and chant together Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. If one can mold his family life in this way to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, following these four principles, then there is no need to change from family life to renounced life. But if it is not congenial, not favorable for spiritual advancement, then family life should be abandoned. One must sacrifice everything to realize or serve Kṛṣṇa, just as Arjuna did. Arjuna did not want to kill his family members, but when he understood that these family members were impediments to his Kṛṣṇa realization, he accepted the instruction of Kṛṣṇa and fought and killed them. In all cases, one should be detached from the happiness and distress of family life because in this world one can never be fully happy or fully miserable. Happiness and distress are concommitant factors of material life. One should learn to tolerate, as advised in Bhagavad-gītā. One can never restrict the coming and going of happiness and distress, so one should be detached from the materialistic way of life and be automatically equiposed in both cases. Generally, when we get something desirable, we are very happy, and when we get something undesirable, we are distressed. But if we are actually in the spiritual position, these things will not agitate us. To reach that stage, we have to practice unbreakable devotional service; devotional service to Kṛṣṇa without deviation means engaging oneself in the nine processes of devotional service, chanting, hearing, worshiping, offering respect, etc., as described in the last verse of the Ninth Chapter. That process should be followed. Naturally, when one is adapted to the spiritual way of life, he will not want to mix with materialistic men. That would go against his grain. One may test himself by seeing how far he is inclined to live in a solitary place without unwanted association."

Bhagavad-gita As It Is - texts: 8-12 - Purport by Srila Prabhupada

So now along with this quote, you must address the other previous quotes I have given, along with the quotes Yasodanandana Prabhu has given.

By the way, the lies you have thus far spoken against various devotee's here immediately qualify you to be a Sudra. A real Brahman means truthfulness. What is above even the Brahmanas are those sincerely engaged in devotional service, Vaisnavas. Therefore you have committed the biggest offense by describing such devotees as nondevotees on the basis of simply not having a formal initiation. I implore you to seek the definition of real initiation from Srila Prabhupada's books.

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 07:08:41 -0400

Subject: Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

To: yasod...@yahoo.com
CC: srimu...@yahoo.com; dasd...@aol.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Bhakta Mark]

Dear Pratyatosa das,

You don't get it, and probably won't in this lifetime. Good luck
anyway.

Hare Krsna

On Aug 27, 6:48 am, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances.
> All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> 1. My wife's actions have been approved by her 2 sons.
>
> 2. Women are always to be considered innocent. Please don't be so hard on
> her.
>
> 3. When you are a member of an organization, such as ISKCON, you have to
> follow the rules of the organization. To not do so would be hypocrisy. My
> wife is simply following the directions of the ISKCON GBC.
>
> 4. You obviously don't understand Srila Prabhupada very well:
>

> *"Prabhupada personally asked women to give class and lead kirtans in front

> of sannyasis, in front of him, in India, and in the West. He consistently
> wrote that women should be preachers and give class. He never said or

> practiced anything differently."* (Urmila Devi Dasi)
>
> *"The nursery school program is very good. That is good that the mothers are

> being freed to increase their devotional service. It is not that women
> should only produce children, but they are meant for advancing in devotion."

> * (Letter to: Jayatirtha  --  Bombay 20 November, 1975)
>
> *"...since both the boys and the girls are being trained to become

> preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their
> brothers who are preaching Krsna consciousness. Therefore, to engage both
> boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to
> spread the Krsna consciousness movement. These jealous fools who criticize
> the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satisfied with
> their own foolishness because they cannot think of how to spread Krsna
> consciousness by adopting ways and means that are favorable for this
> purpose. Their stereotyped methods will never help spread Krsna
> consciousness. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord
> Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture

> those who strayed from Krsna consciousness."* purport CC Adi 7.31-32

[larry freeman p]

A grihastha or householder like you; you are also tridandi.   Because you have sacrificed everything, your life, your home, and your child, so you are a tridandi sannyasi, in fact.    Continue this attitude seriously and sincerely, so you will be also as good as a sannyasi, even though you are in the dress of a grihasta.
Letter to Rupanuga
August 30, 1968

[tim lee]

Thanks, yes I often re-post Dhamaghosha's letters on my blog http://krishna1008.blogspot.com, as well as photos of his programs and so on. Very inspiring indeed. I would rather go to his program of 25 people than go to a mish-mash new age interfaith cobbled up ISKCON programs where people worship bogus gurus -- and where they preach that our Prabhupada worship is maya. As for Dhamaghosha's wife, she is assisting him with his preaching effort so she gets credit for his bona fide preaching no matter what. The point for me personally is that right now I am working with a group of devotees locally to preach about Srila Prabhupada. I am not going to live forever, and so want to see some younger people taking up the flag of Prabhupada's worship to keep the mission going forward, and I am trying to do that. Hence, for me to move away to live isolated in the forest would stop my preaching endeavors as well as make it very difficult for me to live at all since there are no jobs in rural California. I'd be homeless in no time and thus would never be able to continue my internet preaching, where I get inquiries all the time. So the first instruction is -- we have to do what is practical to execute our preaching, that is the overall instruction from Srila Prabhupada -- "do the needful." And he said "preaching is the essence." The need for us right now is for preaching in the cities, and I simply wish there were more people here helping me do that, it is the need of the hour. We are also working with some people who live at the local temple and we are helping with some of their temple programs, so for me to leave them in the dust and move to the forest would be harmful to them and to our effort to establish Srila Prabhupada as the acharya. To say everyone must move away to the forest is simply not practical, nor would it benefit the preaching that is now going on. The most important thing is preaching, it trumps all other considerations. ys pd

[Vasudev Keshav Dasa]

Hare Krishna

 

PAMHO, AGTSP

 

I keep receiving emails of SP quotes/lectures from Damaghosa prabhu which are all like nectar. He selects certain portions of SP lectures and highlights them which I find it very inspiring.

 

I always look forward to receive these emails from him. It has helped me a lot in my spiritual life. That way I see him always preaching. I have my sincere regards and appreciation for him and his preaching.

 

I felt very sad when I got the recent emails about him.

 

I would greatly appreciate if such emails stop immediately as it is leading to Vaishnava Aparadha.

 

SP Quote:

So just try to help them by giving them Krishna Consciousness and the best way to do this is to set the example by being very enthusiastic to do anything and everything to please Krishna, even we may have to make sacrifice. Follow the regulative principles very strictly, and be ready to tolerate all kind of setbacks and disappointments. The difference between a devotee and a nondevotee is this, just like the bee and the fly: the bee always is attracted by the honey and flies go to the open sores. So the devotee is only attracted by the good qualities in other people and does not see their faults. He is friend to everyone and in this way he finds his life sublime. Of course we are not ourselves perfect, so sometimes there may be something, and we may lose our enthusiasm to do something—but these things come and go and you should not bother very much with them. Just be attached to Krishna and try always to think how to please Him, and He will personally rescue His devotee from all kinds of unfavorable situations. Even we may not like to do the work, if we work very hard for Krishna soon we lose our attachment and become satisfied just to be serving Krishna, and as long as at least 16 offenseless rounds daily are being chanted, know it for certain that our anxieties will disappear very soon.

REF:::

Letter to: Badarinarayana

—

Delhi

18 November, 1971

71-11-18

 

Thank you

Ys

Vasudev Keshav Das

 

From: Joseph Langevin [mailto:yasod...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 7:34 AM
To: Pratyatosa; sri m; Das Aol.Com
Cc: Vidura Das; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; Puranjana Prabhu; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; Agrani Krishna Dasa; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; Bharatarshabha Dasa; brahm...@hotmail.com; Bharatarshabha Dasa; chapa...@gmail.com; Chanchalapathi Dasa; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; hasti gopal; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jaya gouranga; Jivadhara; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; Madhusudhan; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; Nimai; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stella singh; Suvyakta Gmail; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; vadi; Vasudev Keshav Dasa; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi

 

Dear Pratyatosh et al

"... Anyone who has no other interest but to dedicate his life to the service of the Lord is actually a sannyāsī Such a person always thinks of himself as an eternal servant, dependant on the supreme will of the Lord. As such, whatever he does, he does it for the benefit of the Lord. Whatever action he performs, he performs it as service to the Lord. He does not give serious attention to the fruitive activities or prescribed duties mentioned in the Vedas For ordinary persons it is obligatory to execute the prescribed duties mentioned in the Vedas, but although a pure devotee who is completely engaged in the service of the Lord may sometimes appear to go against the prescribed Vedic duties, actually it is not so...".

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 9: The Most Confidential Knowledge : Bg 9.28 : PURPORT :

"...Such directions are given in authoritative scriptures such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā, or from a bona fide spiritual master. Because the spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master, saintly persons and scriptures direct in the same way. There is no contradiction in these three sources. All actions done under such direction are free from the reactions of pious or impious activities of this material world. The transcendental attitude of the devotee in the performance of activities is actually that of renunciation, and this is called sannyāsa. Anyone acting under the direction of the Supreme Lord is actually a sannyāsī and a yogī, and not the man who has simply taken the dress of the sannyāsī, or a pseudo-yogī..."

Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 10: The Opulence of the Absolute : Bg 10.3

[Agrani Krishna Dasa]

Hare Krishna,

 

PAMHO, AGTSP

 

Same here.

 

Thank you

 

Ys

Agrani Krishna Das

[Vidura Das]

Very nice.

---

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Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:15:07 +0000

[parijata]

That is what i have thought - we are not in our twenties, neither do we live in devotee communities sadly.  We can only just keep trying to do our best...

----- Original Message -----

From: Srimukunda

To: Yasoda

Cc: Vidura Das ; dasd...@aol.com ; pari...@btinternet.com ; lak...@webtv.net ; Puranjana Prabhu ; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu ; yasoda nandana ; kurmano...@live.com ; urdh...@aol.com ; a.kris...@hkm-group.org ; amey...@gmail.com ; anutt...@gmail.com ; bangalore ; brahm...@hotmail.com ; b...@hkm-group.org ; chapa...@gmail.com ; c...@iskconbangalore.org ; gada...@yahoo.com ; gaura...@gmail.com ; gopal...@hotmail.com ; hasti gopal ; iskconban...@gmail.com ; istag...@googlegroups.com ; jaya gouranga ; Jivadhara ; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com ; khad...@wmconnect.com ; krishn...@hotmail.com ; madhu...@gmail.com ; Madhusudhan ; mahadh...@gmail.com ; mahasrn...@yahoo.com ; makevr...@gmail.com ; m...@iskconbanglore.org ; nalin...@aol.com ; Nimai ; nimai...@yahoo.com ; nityanan...@gmail.com ; prtha_d...@hotmail.com ; srim...@yahoo.com ; stella singh ; suvy...@gmail.com ; ugre...@gmail.com ; upade...@googlemail.com ; vadi ; va...@hkm-group.org ; july9...@yahoo.com ; gokul...@gmail.com

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:11 AM

Subject: Re: Has this George Smith even read our book?

Hare Krishna,

[mark mclaughlin]

Dear Pratyatosa das.   I was happy to ignore this message of yours and drop out of the discussion.  I have not been back to the google group you moderate since then and did not plan to visit again.  But now that you have come to this yahoo group, if feel obliged to continue to defeat your position.   I will start with your last point (#4) and then quickly address the other 3.

4. You obviously don't understand Srila Prabhupada very well:

"Prabhupada personally asked women to give class and lead kirtans in front of sannyasis, in front of him, in India, and in the West. He consistently wrote that women should be preachers and give class. He never said or practiced anything differently." (Urmila Devi Dasi) "The nursery school program is very good. That is good that the mothers are being freed to increase their devotional service. It is not that women should only produce children, but they are meant for advancing in devotion." (Letter to: Jayatirtha -- Bombay 20 November, 1975) "...since both the boys and the girls are being trained to become preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Krsna consciousness. Therefore, to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. These jealous fools who criticize the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satisfied with their own foolishness because they cannot think of how to spread Krsna consciousness by adopting ways and means that are favorable for this purpose. Their stereotyped methods will never help spread Krsna consciousness. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture those who strayed from Krsna consciousness." purport CC Adi 7.31-32 my reply. First of all, a quote from your wife and a dollar fifty gets me a bagel with cream cheese and nothing more.   Regarding those 2 quotes from Srila Prabhupada, those 2 and every conceivable quote regarding women and preaching have recently been dealt with. Your wife and other devotees such as Akruranatha das, Kulapavana das, and others have attempted to excuse away your wife's misguided activities recently on a thread on Dandavats.com. The thread began as a glorification of her lecture in Mayapura.  What transpired next is nothing short of an epic battle. The indomitable Sita dasi proceeded to level flawless constructive criticism of the situation and, 412 posts later, has consistently and single handedly defeated all of her opponents. Every quote used by her opponents, including the one's that Pratyatosa das used in this response, were expertly shown to be inapplicable in context of the comprehensive body of instructions regarding the matter.  Sita dasi painstakingly and perfectly chose quoted instructions from the Vedabase to counter each one used out of context by those defending the misguided actions of the GBC and Urmila on that fateful occasion. The only justice I can do in this matter is to refer anyone interested to go to that thread on Dandavats and witness for themselves the graceful and empowered display of concise argument regarding this issue.  412 posts which have treated every possible excuse from every conceivable angle.   As to Pratyatosa's other 3 points.

1. My wife's actions have been approved by her 2 sons.

1.  Either your son's are not qualified and thus incapable of protecting their mother, or she refuses what good protection they may have offered.  Either way, the result is the same for her.  However, if the son's are giving proper advice, they are in the clear with the Lord regardless of her heeding it or not.  If they are not, you have failed in protecting her by turning her over to son's who are not competent, and have set your son's up for failure.

2. Women are always to be considered innocent. Please don't be so hard on her.

2.  I am not being hard on her.  She does a perfectly good job being hard on herself.   Those who encourage her to deviate, and hold her and her situation up as an example of propriety, are the one's doing a disservice to both her and those reading about her.  I am simply pointing out the truth of the matter in an objective fashion with no derision or lack of compassion as you imply. (Unless you are one who values the false compassion of sentimental coddling at the expense of siddhanta).

3. When you are a member of an organization, such as ISKCON, you have to follow the rules of the organization. To not do so would be hypocrisy. My wife is simply following the directions of the ISKCON GBC.

3.  Does Pratyatosa consider that the fallen neophytes who have deviated from Iskcon standards are now the proprietors and stewards of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon?  To me that is an absurd notion.  They abandoned Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon in principle quite long ago. HIS Iskcon is not a bunch of buildings nor is it a group of misguided bureaucratic committees conspiring to dupe the general public. Of course some days Pratyatosa das will appear to align himself with my above statement quite vociferously, and then when it suits his agenda, suddenly only NON hypocrites follow the pseudo Iskcon GBC.  You can't have it both ways, and to try and do so is the very definition of hypocrisy Pratyatosa. It is quite simple. Those who choose to be a member of the criminal mafioso must follow the rules of the organization they belong to.  Are they to be lauded for their loyalty and not criticized?   I vowed to myself to stay away from the Google group you moderate.  I will keep that vow, though I am sending a copy of this reply there.  I will not visit there, but will always visit Caturbahu's yahoo group. Hare Krsna ys B.Mark --- On Mon, 8/29/11, howardcharlesbest <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: howardcharlesbest <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: [HareKrsnaDhama] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 29, 2011, 11:16 PM

Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! 1. My wife's actions have been approved by her 2 sons. 2. Women are always to be considered innocent. Please don't be so hard on her. 3. When you are a member of an organization, such as ISKCON, you have to follow the rules of the organization. To not do so would be hypocrisy. My wife is simply following the directions of the ISKCON GBC.

4. You obviously don't understand Srila Prabhupada very well:

"Prabhupada personally asked women to give class and lead kirtans in front of sannyasis, in front of him, in India, and in the West. He consistently wrote that women should be preachers and give class. He never said or practiced anything differently." (Urmila Devi Dasi) "The nursery school program is very good. That is good that the mothers are being freed to increase their devotional service. It is not that women should only produce children, but they are meant for advancing in devotion." (Letter to: Jayatirtha -- Bombay 20 November, 1975) "...since both the boys and the girls are being trained to become preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Krsna consciousness. Therefore, to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. These jealous fools who criticize the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satisfied with their own foolishness because they cannot think of how to spread Krsna consciousness by adopting ways and means that are favorable for this purpose. Their stereotyped methods will never help spread Krsna consciousness. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture those who strayed from Krsna consciousness." purport CC Adi 7.31-32

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, <http://rtvik.com/>, <http://pratyatosa.com/>, <http://feedacow.com/>, <http://llbest.com/>

--- In HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com, Bhakta Mark <markmac108@...> wrote: > > Exactly. > > Case in point, is Pratyatosa's wife Urmila. Her sons are unable to > protect her from her false pride and desires for garnering self- > destructive forms of adoration and distinction. > > She sought to become a rubber stamped Diksa Guru (her rationalizations > as to why having no bearing on the fact she decided to go ahead with > it). > > She was exploited by the pro-feminism/equality faction of Iskcon > leadership who prayed on her womanly weakness when they invited her to > break multiple rules of etiquette by sitting on the Vyasasana during > Morning Program in Mayapura giving a lecture to Sanyasis no less, and > she accepted. > > And if these things are any indication of what she is doing as she > travels the world moving from one fawning group of admirers to > another, instead of staying at her son's home and cooking, cleaning, > and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted, I'd say > she is far from protected from the biggest danger a woman faces. Her > own false independence.

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[Pratyatosa]

So, Bhakta Mark Prabhu, in your subjective opinion, Mother Sita defeated my wife in a debate on Dandavats. I'm sure that others have a different opinion. Who, in your opinion would win a "Who gives the best Sunday feast lecture?" contest, or a "Who gives the best Bhagavatam class?" contest?

The past is the past. What, in your opinion, should my wife do in the future to dovetail her God given preaching talent/propensity to give classes/lectures to large groups of people?

If Srila Prabhupada didn't want his female disciples to preach, then why did he send them out on book distribution?

How can you dismiss my wife's testimony when you were not even there at the time? See if you can find anyone who was actually there with Srila Prabhupada at that time to contradict anything that she said.

First you criticize my wife for not following any authority. Then when I tell you which authority she is following, you denigrate her authorities. Which authority do you propose that she follow? You?

Ys, Ptd

[P Conroy]

our best , by far, preacher , at Krsna lunch is Chaitanya dasi 

she makes more devotee's here than everyone else put together 

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[mark mclaughlin]

Dear Pratyatosa das, The fact of who is the victor in any debate or argument is never a matter of opinion. It is based on fact, always.  That there sometimes appear to be various opinions as to who spoke the truth and won a debate is testament to the FACT that some people are in denial of the truth, and some are honest and can see the truth.  This is how it always has been, and always will be. There is no subjectivity in deciding who has won a debate.  That is a cheating method.  Of course we all know there have been few, if any, true debates between devotees.  In a true debate, the participants must be thoroughly honest and OBJECTIVE.  If they cannot trust themselves fully in this regard, they must then choose an elder, whose judgement they both trust, to mediate, and vow to abide by the elder's decision. The reason for these stringent guidelines is that, in a debate, the person who is able to use logic and reason, and even better sastra or descending authority, to defeat the other's position, is considered a superior in knowledge, and potential teacher to the loser, who is theoretically grateful for both the knowledge gained from the defeat and the possibility of seeking further guidance from a new found superior. What I have witnessed over the years fall into 2 categories.   1. A superior defeats an inferior.  The superior shows up with the intent to debate (teach). The inferior shows up to argue and defend a losing position at all costs for personal aggrandizement, and will never admit defeat but devolve to every rationalization and logical fallacy in the book to "save face", and when that fails they walk away in a huff after doing their best to impugn the victors character. 2. Two inferiors both show up to defend illogical positions and the truth is never even mentioned. That said, your first question to me was presumptuous and indicates you either have no idea of what the debate on Dandavats was really about, or you are ascribing a straw man position to Sita dasi and myself.   you wrote

If Srila Prabhupada didn't want his female disciples to preach, then why did he send them out on book distribution?

Neither I, nor Sita dasi, ever spoke or implied that Srila Prabhupada did not want his female disciples to preach.  You could never ever reproduce such an direct statement or implication from me or her. Many neophytes appeared on that thread ascribing that very same straw man position, and Sita dasi was patient to point out each time that it was a concoction, and pointed the accuser to the exact posts in the beginning of the thread that showed her real position. This sort of thing was one reason for the 412 posts.   You came much closer to understanding the essence of Sita dasi's challenge when you asked the question as to how a woman dovetails their inclination to speak about Krsna.  Yet you illogically conflate a person's inclination to preach to a talent for preaching to "large groups".  Just thought I would point out your bias there. Sita dasi and I concur that both the choice to invite, and accept, a woman to sit the Vyasasana and lecture to that particular audience on that particular day was counter to Srila Prabhupada's own guidelines as to both who should preach to whom, and in what venue such should be done.  And it was, according to Srila Prabhupada. This question and all other's in that context were thoroughly answered by Srila Prabhupada and his position was represented perfectly in context, using quotes, by Sita dasi over the months long debate.  If you are truly after knowledge in this regard, I again recommend you to the source.  I feel no need to reinvent the wheel, Sita dasi did the heavy lifting and was brilliant. As far as your wife's testimony, I treat it like all testimony, as completely irrelevant.  A debate is about facts in evidence, common established knowledge, and in the best case, Sastra and the recorded words of Guru.   As far as denigrating your wife's authority figures, I have done no such thing.  You obviously don't know what the word "denigrate" means or you wouldn't have used it.  Speaking the truth is never an attack on anyone's character, but may be perceived as such by a person who is found out to be in the wrong.  The facts in evidence point to misguidance.  That misguidance comes either internally from one's own deluded mind,  or externally by following incompetent authority.  It is what it is.   Denigration is a falsity propagated as truth to defame the character of another. The truth spoken as a corrective measure is welcome chastisement to the honest, but can be perceived as denigrating to those hoping to maintain an illusory self image.   Hare Krsna ys B.Mark --- On Tue, 8/30/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: [HareKrsnaDhama] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com

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[Pratyatosa]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 12:22 PM, mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Neither I, nor Sita dasi, ever spoke or implied that Srila Prabhupada did not want his female disciples to preach.  You could never ever reproduce such an direct statement or implication from me or her.

Then what did you mean, Bhakta Mark Prabhu, when you said, on <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/a8ddfec4844fdae2> that she should "stay at her son's home cooking, cleaning, and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted?"

Ys, Ptd

[mark mclaughlin]

WHAT ABOUT TEACHING YOUNG CHILDREN IS NOT DIRECT PREACHING?  AND EVEN BETTER, PREACHING TO DEVOTEES! WHAT ABOUT RAISING CLEANING AND COOKING FOR A DEVOTEE HUSBAND AND SONS IS NOT INDIRECT PREACHING?  WE ALL HAVE HEARD SRILA PRABHUPADA'S EXAMPLE THAT THE PERSON SWEEPING THE TEMPLE IS PREACHING TOO. AND WHEN YOU EXAMINE THE CHRONOLOGY, AND THUS EVOLUTION OF HIS INSTRUCTIONS ON STRI DHARMA, WHAT I MENTIONED IS GENERALLY WHAT HE WANTED EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS WOMEN DISCIPLES TO DO. HE SAID THEIR PREACHING WAS TO BE TEACHING CHILDREN AND GLORIFYING KRSNA LIBERALLY WHILE IN DAILY COMMUNION WITH THE OTHER LADIES BOTH OLD AND YOUNG. YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT IN THE BEGINNING HE GAVE ALL SORTS OF ENCOURAGEMENT TO HIS NEOPHYTE DISCIPLES ACCORDING TO THEIR DEMONIAC TENDENCIES TO BE "INDEPENDENT" AND MIX WILLY NILLY WITH THE OTHER SEX.  AND SINCE THERE WERE ONLY 20 DISCIPLES AT ONE POINT, THE WOMEN WERE ENCOURAGED TO DO ALL SORTS OF EXCEPTIONAL ACTIVITIES.  BUT OVER TIME HE DEMANDED THAT WE GIVE THOSE HABITS UP, AND GAVE EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS FOR EACH CATEGORY OF DEVOTEE AS TO HOW TO CONDUCT THEMSELVES MORE STRICTLY ACCORDING TO DVD SO THAT WE COULD ADVANCE AND REPRESENT HIM BETTER. OR ELSE YOU WOULDN'T BE SO STRIDENT AND DEMANDING TO EVERY MALE DEVOTEE YOU MEET THAT THEY MUST ACCEPT VANAPRASTHA AT 50 OR BE A NONSENSE IN YOUR EYES. YOU CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, AND I CERTAINLY WONT LET YOU.

--- On Wed, 8/31/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: [HareKrsnaDhama] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com

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[Pratyatosa]

Too puffed up to admit that you made a mistake when you said that my wife should "stay at her son's home cooking, cleaning, and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted?" What about book distribution to the general public? Are you saying that Srila Prabhupada didn't want women to do that?

You've got it backwards, Bhakta Mark Prabhu. According to <http://www.dandavats.com/?p=3462>, Srila Prabhupada started off on a higher level and then lowered it. He didn't start off on a lower level and then raise it as you seem to think.

"Krsna has given everyone something extraordinary and to serve Krsna with one's extraordinary talent means successful life."  (Letter to Sukadeva, Calcutta, 4 March, 1973)

Do you think that "everyone" means "men?" Of course not! And if women also each have something extraordinary, are they not supposed to use it in Krishna's service? If not, then how do women have a successful life? Perhaps you are making the mistake of seeing women as objects instead of as persons.

Ys, Ptd

[tim lee]

Dear Prabhus, Urmila is compromised with the bogus GBC guru illicit sex system, plain and simple. She is thus not qualified to speak or lecture anywhere since she has not understood the siddhanta. She is fully affiliated with the deviant GBC guru's program; and its main exponents; and she is a long standing member of their group, and indeed she has been all along. We simply do not agree with Urmila and her GBC bogus guru's program that says in numerous of their documents that Krishna's acharyas / successors / and / or gurus are falling down all the time into debauchery, its not our siddhanta. Urmila has not publicly recanted any of these bogus GBC's position papers, annual reports, publications and views, in all these decades, rather she keeps turning up on more and more and more and more of their committees, forums, web sites, publications, documents, etc. She is with them. This is not bona fide vanaprastha or anything else, it is compromised association with the bogus guru's project. She is not part of the Vedic culture by compromise with those saying Vedic guru successors are debauchees, this is an attack on Vedic culture and its authority structure and she is part of that sabha. ys pd

[mark mclaughlin]

Pratyatosa das, When I used that generalization, which basically sums up what Srila Prabhupada wanted from women in his movement, I left out mending clothes.  Does that mean I think Srila Prabhupada didn't want women to mend clothes?   I didn't mention associating with other women.  Does that mean I think they should never leave the house?   I didn't mention congregational chanting in a temple, or in public.  Does that mean I think they should never accompany a Sankirtana party in the streets? According to you, I am that narrow minded.  Whatever... As per your modus operandi, you will grasp on to any utterance I make that you might be able to spin to your advantage.  You will reply with that piece ONLY, in order to sidestep the need to address all the points I constantly make that defeat your concocted positions. Which is why I left your kangaroo court forum the other day and didn't look back.  But since you have barged into this forum that I helped create and help to moderate,  I will continue to respond to your tired act until you desist. First you insist that I have things backwards, yet amazingly (but not suprising to anyone who is familiar with your brand of hypocrisy), you cite as your evidence an entire article written by a person belonging to the very groups you publicly denounce time and again! One Ravindra Swarupa das,  a rubberstamped Guru, a faux GBC member, and perhaps the most publicly prominent sophist and apologist of all things wrong with Iskcon.   And your point drawing a conclusion from his rascal rubbish?  Ascribing yet another straw man position to me.  That I believe that Srila Prabhupada started on a lower lever and raised it higher.  Instead of "the other way around" I don't even have to fry my brain reading the words of Ravindra to know what you are insinuating here.   As those of us with half a brain have been able to see through your transparent charade from the beginning, we know you are in perfect hypocritical agreement with the GBC position that all the fallen neophytes who screwed up everything are actually pure Vaisnavas and therefore don't need to implement Varnasrama amongst themselves for their own advancement, but maybe someday should put on a show of Varnasrama for the benefit of the public. Yet you insist when it suits your public image that every male devotee who hasn't fulfilled the Vanaprasta transition by 50 is a disobedient rogue.  While in the next breath admitting you don't follow it perfectly, nor can you, blah blah blah. You need help, and until you seek it, you will continue to be destructive and offensive in your dealings on the internet.  Which is why if you come to this forum again without making a change in your approach to a more honest one, I will approach the owner of the forum and suggest cancelling your membership so as to prevent the mad elephant routine that has trampled the Prabhupadanuga forum and caused consternation in every single person on that forum and have publicly said so to your face. Exactly similar to your wife's dealings on that thread on Dandavats.  Dozen's of devotees stepped forward with very reasonable critiques using quotes.  She did nothing but deny any validity to anything anyone said, but simply defended her actions using quotes out of context and never addressing the exact points raised.  As if everyone else was crazy to even suggest that she could possibly have any fault or need improvement. I actually have more respect for her.  She is honest about her dishonesty.  You pretend and play both sides in a schizophrenic fashion, which is why your well wishers have been suggesting you seek professional help in the matter. At which point you further prove our assessment by denouncing the psychiatric and psychological sciences as quackery and unnecessary for devotees in order to avoid acting on such advice. This coming from the person who holds the scientists of this world on a pedestal in matters of their astronomical, geophysical, and technical acumen to the point of holding their opinions over those of your presumed Spiritual Master and the Vedas themselves. I wish you well because you chant Hare Krsna.  I wish you would stop forcing me to embarrass you, which you can do by coming back down to earth and clearing your mind before engaging with me again. ys B.Mark

--- On Wed, 8/31/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: [HareKrsnaDhama] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com

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[Pratyatosa]

So, Bhakta Mark Prabhu, you are now saying that when you said that my wife should "stay at her son's home cooking, cleaning, and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted," it did not exclude going on Harinama sankirtana or distributing Srila Prabhupada's books to the general public. Therefore, according to you, it could also include dovetailing my wife's #1 God given talent/propensity: giving Bhagavatam classes and Sunday feast lectures in front of hundreds of devotees/guests. Are you envious because you are not qualified to do this?

Now you have lowered yourself to the level of attempted character assassination and ad hominem attacks. Does this mean that you are admitting defeat?

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Puranjana Prabhu, I already answered all of this 8 years ago on <http://www.vnn.org/>:

I think many devotees already know my position on gurus within ISKCON:

"The original 11 "gurus" took control of ISKCON illegally in 1978 through the agency of lies, the hiding and destroying of documents, the hiding and destroying of audio recordings, banning, beating, and even murdering godbrothers, etc. This can be proven in a court of law. Therefore, they are offenders and anyone who joins up with them are equally offenders. If they aren't punished in this lifetime, then they will have to suffer even more in the future. They are all extreme offenders of Shrila Prabhupada."

At the same time, I believe that my wife, is more qualified to be an ISKCON "guru" than 50%, or maybe even 90%, of the present ISKCON "gurus" whom I've come into contact with. Also, Shrila Prabhupada has said that women are innocent:

"Children, brahmana, and here it is said stri, woman. According to Vedic politics, the children and brahmana, old men and woman, they have no fault. They are out of all laws of the state. Their fault will never be taken as seriously. They are innocent. They require protection. Now the agitation is that woman should have equal rights with man. So that is not Vedic idea. Vedic idea is that woman should be always protected. She is not independent. Just like child." (730513SB.LA)

"Child, brahmana, cow, and woman, they are to be given protection by the laws of Vedic instruction. They have to be protected. So this should be very carefully done. Stri-sudra-dvija-bandhunam. Stri, they are considered either as innocent as the child or as innocent as the animal. So they should be given always protection." (750615SB.HON)

...If women are misguided, then 100% of the bad karma is upon the heads of the men who have misguided them. Therefore could it be that she, if the GBC decides to accept her nomination, will be ISKCON's first non-criminal "living guru" since 1978?

(<http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0309/ET20-8357.html>)

Ys, Ptd

[mark mclaughlin]

I am sorry you must resort to putting words into my mouth.  But from you I expect nothing less at this point.  And you insult the intellegence (per usual) of everyone else who can read. The fact that you can't tell the difference between walking in a Sankirtana procession, and sitting on the Vyasasana, at morning program on a high holy day in the holiest Dhama, lecturing to supposed advanced male Sannyasis, speaks volumes about your willingness to ignore meaningful etiquette to promote your agenda of so called equality.   Especially from one who purports that we should make distinctions between varnas and asramas, to the point of being offensively addicted to berating any 50 year old male devotee who hasn't completely withdrawn to at least 200 miles from all devotee association, to live alone in an apartment eating microwaved food from the salvation army, and calling them disobedient useless non-devotees. And your equating a person's ability to speak about Krsna to a god given talent for lecturing people from the Vyasasana in front of "hundreds" of people is pathetic, and speaks to your families tendency toward great hubris. Also pathetic is your equating a person's caution in sitting on the Vyasasana in a way that honors Srila Prabhupada's instructions with being unqualifed to speak about Krsna.  It was only a brief week that I officially wrested a temple from bogus control and gave class in the morning, but I sat on a mat to the side of the temple room, and it mattered not how many living entities were in attendence, but I don't expect a proud buffoon to expect such a sentiment. You decry feminism one day, and are its greatest supporter the next. You speak with a forked tongue. Do it again on this forum, and you are out.  You have your little hypocritical playground over at Google.  You will not have such a venue here. Hare Krsna ys B.Mark

--- On Thu, 9/1/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [HareKrsnaDhama] Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thursday, September 1, 2011, 12:14 PM

So, Bhakta Mark Prabhu, you are now saying that when you said that my wife should "stay at her son's home cooking, cleaning, and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted," it did not exclude going on Harinama sankirtana or distributing Srila Prabhupada's books to the general public. Therefore, according to you, it could also include dovetailing my wife's #1 God given talent/propensity: giving Bhagavatam classes and Sunday feast lectures in front of hundreds of devotees/guests. Are you envious because you are not qualified to do this? Now you have lowered yourself to the level of attempted character assassination and ad hominem attacks. Does this mean that you are admitting defeat?

Ys, Ptd

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 11:25 AM, mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:   Pratyatosa das, When I used that generalization, which basically sums up what Srila Prabhupada wanted from women in his movement, I left out mending clothes.  Does that mean I think Srila Prabhupada didn't want women to mend clothes?   I didn't mention associating with other women.  Does that mean I think they should never leave the house?   I didn't mention congregational chanting in a temple, or in public.  Does that mean I think they should never accompany a Sankirtana party in the streets? According to you, I am that narrow minded.  Whatever... As per your modus operandi, you will grasp on to any utterance I make that you might be able to spin to your advantage.  You will reply with that piece ONLY, in order to sidestep the need to address all the points I constantly make that defeat your concocted positions. Which is why I left your kangaroo court forum the other day and didn't look back.  But since you have barged into this forum that I helped create and help to moderate,  I will continue to respond to your tired act until you desist. First you insist that I have things backwards, yet amazingly (but not suprising to anyone who is familiar with your brand of hypocrisy), you cite as your evidence an entire article written by a person belonging to the very groups you publicly denounce time and again! One Ravindra Swarupa das,  a rubberstamped Guru, a faux GBC member, and perhaps the most publicly prominent sophist and apologist of all things wrong with Iskcon.   And your point drawing a conclusion from his rascal rubbish?  Ascribing yet another straw man position to me.  That I believe that Srila Prabhupada started on a lower lever and raised it higher.  Instead of "the other way around" I don't even have to fry my brain reading the words of Ravindra to know what you are insinuating here.   As those of us with half a brain have been able to see through your transparent charade from the beginning, we know you are in perfect hypocritical agreement with the GBC position that all the fallen neophytes who screwed up everything are actually pure Vaisnavas and therefore don't need to implement Varnasrama amongst themselves for their own advancement, but maybe someday should put on a show of Varnasrama for the benefit of the public. Yet you insist when it suits your public image that every male devotee who hasn't fulfilled the Vanaprasta transition by 50 is a disobedient rogue.  While in the next breath admitting you don't follow it perfectly, nor can you, blah blah blah. You need help, and until you seek it, you will continue to be destructive and offensive in your dealings on the internet.  Which is why if you come to this forum again without making a change in your approach to a more honest one, I will approach the owner of the forum and suggest cancelling your membership so as to prevent the mad elephant routine that has trampled the Prabhupadanuga forum and caused consternation in every single person on that forum and have publicly said so to your face. Exactly similar to your wife's dealings on that thread on Dandavats.  Dozen's of devotees stepped forward with very reasonable critiques using quotes.  She did nothing but deny any validity to anything anyone said, but simply defended her actions using quotes out of context and never addressing the exact points raised.  As if everyone else was crazy to even suggest that she could possibly have any fault or need improvement. I actually have more respect for her.  She is honest about her dishonesty.  You pretend and play both sides in a schizophrenic fashion, which is why your well wishers have been suggesting you seek professional help in the matter. At which point you further prove our assessment by denouncing the psychiatric and psychological sciences as quackery and unnecessary for devotees in order to avoid acting on such advice. This coming from the person who holds the scientists of this world on a pedestal in matters of their astronomical, geophysical, and technical acumen to the point of holding their opinions over those of your presumed Spiritual Master and the Vedas themselves. I wish you well because you chant Hare Krsna.  I wish you would stop forcing me to embarrass you, which you can do by coming back down to earth and clearing your mind before engaging with me again. ys B.Mark

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[Pratyatosa]

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 4:42 PM, mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

The fact that you can't tell the difference between walking in a Sankirtana procession, and sitting on the Vyasasana, at morning program on a high holy day in the holiest Dhama, lecturing to supposed advanced male Sannyasis, speaks volumes about your willingness to ignore meaningful etiquette to promote your agenda of so called equality.

 

Bhakta Mark Prabhu, you said that my wife should "stay at her son's home cooking, cleaning, and educating the young children like Srila Prabhupada wanted." Then, surprisingly, you make the statement that your ignorant, biased, chauvinistic, misogynistic statement did not exclude going on Harinama sankirtana or distributing Srila Prabhupada's books to the general public! You obviously did this in order to make a desperate attempt to avoid, at all cost, admitting that you might have made a mistake. Where is the Vaisnava humility?

Also pathetic is your equating a person's caution in sitting on the Vyasasana in a way that honors Srila Prabhupada's instructions with being unqualifed to speak about Krsna.  It was only a brief week that I officially wrested a temple from bogus control and gave class in the morning, but I sat on a mat to the side of the temple room, and it mattered not how many living entities were in attendence, but I don't expect a proud buffoon to expect such a sentiment.

The difference is that my wife was following the direction of the GBC, and you were just following the direction of your own fertile, speculative brain. Like I said before, if you are a member of an organization, such as ISKCON, then you have to follow the rules of that organization. Otherwise, you are simply a hypocrite.

Ys, Ptd

[Bhaktatraveler]

I was just following orders did not wash at the Nurumberg trials and does not wash in a DVD movement. Even the sudra has to be intelligent enough to not go against the spiritual master's directives. What to speak of a woman that YOU say is the best of the bunch and should be a guru. is also opposed to logic coming from a supposedly die hard rtvik. Blah. So my wife is following her authorities into hell and at the same time is highly qualified to give SB class is an idea that is directly in opposition to logic!!! Shilling much? RCB

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: [HareKrsnaDhama] Re: Srila Prabhupada regarding who is a sannyasi To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com

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<img width="1" height="1" alt="" src="http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=a2e82896-d657-11e0-b413-5b6dcbd2db9b&T=1c92er7to%2fX%3d1315073270%2fE%3d1705075991%2fR%3dgroups%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dH%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d1095784784%2fH%3dY29udGVudD0iRmluYW5jZTtQaG90b3M7RXZlbnRzO0dvO01haWw7QnJpZWZjYXNlO0Jvb2ttYXJrO0hvdGpvYnM7UG9kY2FzdHM7TWVzc2VuZ2VyOyIgZGlzYWJsZXNodWZmbGluZz0iMSIgc2VydmVJZD0iYTJlODI4OTYtZDY1Ny0xMWUwLWI0MTMtNWI2ZGNiZDJkYjliIiBzaXRlSWQ9IjQ0NTI1NTEiIHRTdG1wPSIxMzE1MDczMjcwNDczOTY5IiA-%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d9E238962&U=13cm2oo37%2fN%3dfGr1PNj8elg-%2fC%3d493064.14543979.14562481.13298430%2fD%3dMKP1%2fB%3d6060255%2fV%3d1"> A bad score is 598. A bad idea is not checking yours, at freecreditscore.com.<img width="1" height="1" alt="" src="http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=a2e82896-d657-11e0-b413-5b6dcbd2db9b&T=1c8tkv75v%2fX%3d1315073270%2fE%3d1705075991%2fR%3dgroups%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dH%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d203260215%2fH%3dY29udGVudD0iRmluYW5jZTtQaG90b3M7RXZlbnRzO0dvO01haWw7QnJpZWZjYXNlO0Jvb2ttYXJrO0hvdGpvYnM7UG9kY2FzdHM7TWVzc2VuZ2VyOyIgZGlzYWJsZXNodWZmbGluZz0iMSIgc2VydmVJZD0iYTJlODI4OTYtZDY1Ny0xMWUwLWI0MTMtNWI2ZGNiZDJkYjliIiBzaXRlSWQ9IjQ0NTI1NTEiIHRTdG1wPSIxMzE1MDczMjcwNDczOTY5IiA-%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d9E238962&U=13cidrvi8%2fN%3de2r1PNj8elg-%2fC%3d791726.14847541.14590405.10835568%2fD%3dMKP1%2fB%3d6449876%2fV%3d1">

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