Re: Pratyatosa Blocks my mails. He is NOT Ritvik he is Pretender

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Could it be that Mahesh Prabhu is envious that my wife has her own non-profit corporation which is about to publish 84 high quality, high-tech Krishna conscious children's books? Is he so presumptuous that he thinks that she has time to debate with him about the guru issue when she is in the middle of traveling all over Europe, and has a publishing deadline to meet, a publishing deadline which devotee children, parents and teachers all over the world are depending upon her to meet?

Is he upset because I criticized his buddy, Rocana Prabhu, a notorious ritvik basher? Mahesh, like Rocana, seems to want to put down both the ISKCON "gurus" and the ritviks so that he can puff himself up and be the big, big "guru" himself! Mahesh is a regular contributor to the Sampradaya Sun, so where does his loyalty really lie? My theory is that he, like Nara Narayana Visvakarma and Praghosa Prabhus have done in the past, is simply pretending to be a ritvik in order to get his foot in the door so that he can sow discord among the ritviks. IMHO, his neophyte, fanatical, blind follower rhetoric and his impersonal "snow job" response to many emails are simply an embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada.

In any case, my stance is openly declared on my website <http://rtvik.com/>, which doesn't say anything that is completely irrelevant, such as which level of devotee is allowed to be an initiating guru. Neither does it say that the May 28th conversation is just as important as the July 9th letter. (See <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/web/levels-of-authority>.) These are favorite topics of those who are trying to undermine the unassailable position put forth on <http://rtvik.com/>.

Those of you who do not like the way that the Prabhupadanuga forum is being run are welcome to start your own forum or to continue beating a dead horse on your tiny mailing list among which an even tinier number of devotees, mostly non-ritviks, even bother to respond.

Last time I checked, there were 193 members of the Prabhupadanuga forum, an all-time high. All followers of Srila Prabhupada are welcome to join (no permission required) and/or send submissions to the Prabhupadanuga forum via emails to <istag...@googlegroups.com>, but please keep in mind that all submissions are currently being moderated, so they may take up to several hours to actually appear on <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosth>.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator/Owner, The Google Prabhupadanuga Group <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosth>

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 9:04 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hare Krsna Lalshmi

What about this list? I think we just might have hit on something here with our line of talk, or else why the censoring? Are we again the victims of underhanded back door dealings? Is this really what you devotees want in your lives? Get the heck off line and commune with devotees in real life.

Could it be an honest glitch?

Hare Krsna

RCB

---

From: larry freeman p <lak...@webtv.net>
To: Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; markm...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdh...@aol.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 8:37:21 PM

Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Blocks my mails. He is NOT Ritvik he is Pretender

this is a condensed list.
it seems many here are blocked.
Mahesh is convinced Pratyatosa is not fully a ritvik?
at least include whoever you want to receive an email, every time you send an email.

[Bhaktatraveler]

Yes it is your world. we are just, what? Did not I and others not give you full support in the beginning of the forum. Didn't this initial forum list of names and addresses come from a free flowing list? Or am I in more illusion? 

I need a time out! Off line.

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>
Cc: larry freeman p <lak...@webtv.net>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urmila/Edith Best <urmilad...@gmail.com>; Rocana dasa <s...@harekrsna.com>; Bir Krishna das Goswami (Organizer) <Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; "istag...@googlegroups.comgosthi" <istag...@googlegroups.com>; july9th Dasa <july9...@yahoo.com>; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>; Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, July 18, 2010 9:09:19 AM

Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Blocks my mails. He is NOT Ritvik he is Pretender

[Patrick Hedemark]

Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu   PAMHO AGTSP Hare Krsna   I have never "pretended" to be a "ritivik" prabhu.   I have consistently accepted ONLY the definition of ritivik representative of the acharya as officiating acharya; defined by HDG Srila Prabhupada as "regular guru BUT BY MY ORDER" as opposed to the concocted term "priest" as promulgated by the still uninitiated Bengali Lawyer Krsna Kant Desai, Rocan Das, Gaura Kesava Das and Kailasa Chandra.   I have done whatever I can - to emphasize this correct understanding of Srila Prabhupada's very simple arrangements for his ISKCON mission for the last 6 years and running.   You may disagree with this and embrace Krsna Kant Desai's invention. That is certainly your freedom to do but in my IMHO - anyone who accepts his definition will remain perpetually stuck in a paralyzed position. No man who is taking such responsibility for Srila Prabhupada as the Jagat Guru - extending the absolute position and influence of HDG Srila Prabhupada across the globe on his behalf - is again - IMHO - at liberty to teach other than absolute respect for The Spiritual Master and his bonafide reprsentatives.   I completely reject anyone's attempt to portray this simple, practical and necessary arrangement of Srila Prabhupada of Srila Prabhupada as other than his recorded statements clearly establish it to be.   IMHO opinion - anyone who rejects it - is free to do whatever they like - but there capacity to accomplish all that Srila Prabhupada asked of us - will not come remotely close to lasting and full sucess.   Ritivik means "empowered representative" and this empowerment is at the discretion of the actual Jagat Guru and Eternal Founder Acharya of ISKCON -HDG Srila Prabhupada. It may be "wholesale" and encompass ful control of the "property, position and prestige" of The Jagat Guru's mission/estate - OR - as in the case of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON - the empowerment is "restricted" to a partial and "conditional" authority. The gurus in ISKCON - acting on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and HIS mission - are NOT authorized to claim such "wholsale" authority over and control of the above mentioned "position, property and prestige" of HIS ISKCON mission. This authority he left in the able and designated hands of the local Temple President - and protected  by the "vigilant oversight and very strong management" of his GBC Commission.   This is all supported by his very clear statements on all of this to the GBC on May 27th and May 28th of 1977.   I hope this clears up any confusion on your part.   YS   Praghosa   --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Blocks my mails. He is NOT Ritvik he is Pretender

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Caturbahu Prabhu, thank you very much for your support over the past few months that the Prabhupadanuga forum has been in existence.

In the last 24 minutes, 23 people have viewed the forum by going to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>. If one person goes to the forum almost every minute to check out what's been posted recently, that's nothing to sneeze at! It shows that a lot of people are interested.

The Prabhupadanuga forum was started a little more than a year ago by Madhudvisa Prabhu, the famous ritvik who almost single handedly started the Bhaktivedanta MP3 Ministry. Then, without even asking me, he made me a co-owner. That meant that the forum now had 2 members! :-)

This was at a time when I had no idea how to start a forum, let alone how to moderate one. He then asked me whether or not I was willing to run it, because he didn't have time. I told him that I would give it a try, and the rest is history.

To this day, there are still multiple owners/moderators, so even if I leave my body tomorrow, the forum can go on.

Even though the forum is far from perfect, neither are our material bodies. And yet we still manage to use these imperfect bodies in Krishna's service. Therefore, let us simply again make the best use of a bad bargain, and try to use the imperfect Prabhupadanuga forum in Krishna's service.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Praghosa Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

In early 1998, you wrote an open letter to me which was published on VNN.ORG:

For anyone to continue quoting the conversations of May 28th as being relevant to Srila Prabhupada's Final Order on the subject of initiations in ISKCON, is in reality-disgraceful!! Even a young child in grammar school has learned that the Month of July follows the month of May-not visa versa! The conversations of May 28th were preceded by many others and followed by many others. Some taped-Some not! They have value precisely because we can see how simple Srila Prabhupada's approach to the subject was and how motivated were those who kept inquiring, even after he answered very clearly Satsvarupa Swami's original question. "Yes I will appoint some of you to act as officiating acharyas". But these taped conversations have been referred to in the past as "The appointment tapes". A status that has now been completely rejected by the devotees who so tenaciously pursued the position of guru from 1986 onward! So just what is the significance of these taped conversations remains unclear for the men who look to these tapes as some type of authorization. They are not clear and united as to what these tapes actually authorize them to do! But these tapes are not capable of being utilized for that at all precisely because after all was "said" and then "done" Srila Prabhupada eliminated the need to speculate even one iota. He distilled the results of undoubtedly many conversations on the subject in the simple, clear, concise, and very to the point, directive that he had sent to each and every Temple President and GBC on the ninth of July! Simple for the simple! Difficult for those who would have liked for him to have sent something else!

What you said then completely contradicts what you are saying now. Now you are quoting the May 28th conversation like it is more important than the July 9th written, signed directive to all temple presidents and GBC men! In 1998, you are even calling your future self disgraceful!

At that time, you seemed to be seeing things clearly. Now you seem to have gotten yourself again covered over by maya. In early 1998 you were what the ISKCON ritvik bashers call a "ritvik." Now you deny that you were ever a ritvik or that you ever even pretended to be a ritvik. Why are you afraid to admit that you have obviously flip-flopped?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Urdh...@aol.com]

Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu

Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Your attempt to paint Mahesh prabhu as a ritvik basher (by comparing him to Rocana)  is just ridiculous and will not succeed, because all the articles posted by Mehesh prabhu proof the opposite.

On the other hand this GKD who is allowed to post his mayavadi articles freely, is by his writings definitely not a ritvik.

But it is a fact that you block people from this forum, not only Mahesh, but my self too and many other devotees also, if they write something critical about you.

You big ego does not allow any critical comments if they concern your person.

As you stated: Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator/Owner, The Google Prabhupadanuga Group

Yes you are the OWNER and the moderator and therefore you are blocking and screening people out, if they dare writing something critical to your person.

Yes you can do that, that is ok since you are the owner, but don't tell anybody that is a free forum for all.

And it is not a Prabhupadanuga forum, because in the past you are blocking Prabhupadanugas and allowing non Prabhupadanugas to write their nonsense articles.

And it is not a Ritvik forum either, because there are so many non ritviks posting also.

And Srila Prabhupada is blasphemed on this forum and those who defend him are called blind followers.

I hope my posting is not an offence and will be published.

Your servant
Urdhvaga das



 

-----------------------------------------------------

mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Thema: Re: Pratyatosa Blocks my mails. He is NOT Ritvik he is Pretender
Datum: 18.07.2010 20:52:19 Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit
Von: mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk
An: bhaktat...@yahoo.com, praty...@gmail.com
Kopie an: lak...@webtv.net, urmilad...@gmail.com, s...@harekrsna.com, Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net, amey...@gmail.com, ange...@yahoo.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kurmano...@live.com, magf...@wowway.com, miloni...@yahoo.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, sudhras...@gmail.com, urdh...@aol.com, yasod...@yahoo.com
Internet-eMail:



Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
 
1) You are suggesting I am envious of your wife - NO!  On the contrary, I think she is a sad case for wanting to be a GURU which is RESERVED  for Mahabhagavata (Srila Prabhupada). Best she stick to writing childrens books.

2) Regards Rocana Prabhu, I will say this OPENLY I thank you very much Rocana Prabhu, for EXCELLENTLY presenting my articles on Ritvik philosophy. Give credit where it is due.

Have you ever considered that persons like him may just have been blown away from Ritvik Philosophy because YOUR manners in dealing with him?
Convincing a person is also about manners in as much as addressing the philosophical content. How do you know he has not been impressed with what I have presented on Ritvik Philosophy?

Please read the presentation of my articles - they speak for themselves:
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ritvik System Is Bonafide

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WHEN I order

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Srila Prabhupada's Disciple

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ritvik - **Representative**

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Formalities

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Brahmana (Kanistha)

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Become Guru by Order, That's All

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The rescuer must be liberated

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tattva-darsinah

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

He is not a liberated person

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris



http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



ys mahesh

--- On Sun, 18/7/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Blocks my mails. He is NOT Ritvik he is Pretender
To: "Bhaktatraveler" <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>
Cc: "larry freeman p" <lak...@webtv.net>, "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Urmila/Edith Best" <urmilad...@gmail.com>, "Rocana dasa" <s...@harekrsna.com>, "Bir Krishna das Goswami (Organizer)" <Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net>, "Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP]" <amey...@gmail.com>, "tim lee" <ange...@yahoo.com>, "John Hanton" <hanto...@hotmail.com>, "istag...@googlegroups.comgosthi" <istag...@googlegroups.com>, "july9th Dasa" <july9...@yahoo.com>, kurmano...@live.com, magf...@wowway.com, miloni...@yahoo.com, "Patrick Hedemark" <pdhed...@yahoo.com>, "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>, "urdhvaga USA." <urdh...@aol.com>, "Yoland Y. Langevin" <yasod...@yahoo.com>, "Greg Jay" <jay....@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 18 July, 2010, 14:09

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Could it be that Mahesh Prabhu is envious that my wife has her own non-profit corporation which is about to publish 84 high quality, high-tech Krishna conscious children's books? Is he so presumptuous that he thinks that she has time to debate with him about the guru issue when she is in the middle of traveling all over Europe, and has a publishing deadline to meet, a publishing deadline which devotee children, parents and teachers all over the world are depending upon her to meet?

Is he upset because I criticized his buddy, Rocana Prabhu, a notorious ritvik basher? Mahesh, like Rocana, seems to want to put down both the ISKCON "gurus" and the ritviks so that he can puff himself up and be the big, big "guru" himself! Mahesh is a regular contributor to the Sampradaya Sun, so where does his loyalty really lie? My theory is that he, like Nara Narayana Visvakarma and Praghosa Prabhus have done in the past, is simply pretending to be a ritvik in order to get his foot in the door so that he can sow discord among the ritviks. IMHO, his neophyte, fanatical, blind follower rhetoric and his impersonal "snow job" response to many emails are simply an embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada.

In any case, my stance is openly declared on my website <http://rtvik.com/>, which doesn't say anything that is completely irrelevant, such as which level of devotee is allowed to be an initiating guru. Neither does it say that the May 28th conversation is just as important as the July 9th letter. (See <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/web/levels-of-authority>.) These are favorite topics of those who are trying to undermine the unassailable position put forth on <http://rtvik.com/>.

Those of you who do not like the way that the Prabhupadanuga forum is being run are welcome to start your own forum or to continue beating a dead horse on your tiny mailing list among which an even tinier number of devotees, mostly non-ritviks, even bother to respond.

Last time I checked, there were 193 members of the Prabhupadanuga forum, an all-time high. All followers of Srila Prabhupada are welcome to join (no permission required) and/or send submissions to the Prabhupadanuga forum via emails to <istag...@googlegroups.com>, but please keep in mind that all submissions are currently being moderated, so they may take up to several hours to actually appear on <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosth>.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator/Owner, The Google Prabhupadanuga Group <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosth>

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 9:04 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hare Krsna Lalshmi

What about this list? I think we just might have hit on something here with our line of talk, or else why the censoring? Are we again the victims of underhanded back door dealings? Is this really what you devotees want in your lives? Get the heck off line and commune with devotees in real life.



Could it be an honest glitch?


Hare Krsna


RCB

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Urdhvaga Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

1. I never said that Mahesh Prabhu is a "ritvik basher."

2. I don't generally block emails that are critical of me. Do you have an example? On the other hand, those who have a better idea on how to run the forum are welcome to make a suggestion, but please do it privately. That's been forum policy almost since day 1.

3. Rocana Prabhu is just using Mahesh. Rocana doesn't allow strong pro-ritvik arguments on his website. For example,  he refuses to publish any article which has a link to <http://rtvik.com/>. Instead he publishes Mahesh's weak minded "On my order" and "Initiating guru must be uttama" arguments, which are not really pro-ritvik arguments, but are simply anti-ISKCON "guru" arguments. Rocana and Mahesh like these arguments, because the more that they can find fault with the ISKCON "gurus," the more they can artificially puff themselves up. IMHO, these weak arguments hurt rather than help the ritvik cause. Not only are they irrelevant, but they are very easy to defeat.

4. Below you will see that Mahesh is accusing my wife of being in it for the money and for being deceitful, simply because she refused to debate the guru issue with him. The subject of the thread was "Proof That the Sampradaya Sun Cannot Be Trusted." It was an open debate between 3 members of my family and the Sampradaya Sun staff. Then, completely out of the blue, Mahesh changes the title of the thread to "Kanistha or Madhyama do NOT give Diksa" and challenges my wife to debate with him! His action was totally uncalled for and totally inappropriate. It proves that he is not in control of his senses. He even admits that he was upset over Rocana being criticized. Obviously, he took his anger out on my wife on a completely unrelated subject. His unwarranted reply to my wife's private email to him, which she did not give him permission to make public, is not the only reason why he is banned from the forum, but it was the last straw.

Mahesh Prabhu has been estranged from the forum in the past also. I hope that again it is only temporary.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Kanistha or Madhyama do NOT give Diksa
To: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>, Urmila/Edith Best <urmilad...@gmail.com>,...

Prabhus

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Please accept my humble obeisances

Hare Krsna!

 

As we can ALL see the TRUTH speaks for itself Pratyatosa was NOT going to reply and Neither is his wife - THEY ARE COMPROMISED - IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY - DECEIT.

--- On Sat, 17/7/10, Urmila devi dasi/Dr. Edith Best <urmilad...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Urmila devi dasi/Dr. Edith Best <urmilad...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Kanistha or Madhyama do NOT give Diksa

To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, 17 July, 2010, 16:54

On 7/17/2010 5:53 PM, Mahesh Raja wrote:
> Urimila dasi Prabhu

> All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

> Please accept my humble obeisances.
> Can you please tell me if Kanistha and Madhyama can give Diksa or not.
>

I am not interested in this discussion and will not reply to further texts on this topic.

Your servant, Urmila devi dasi
---------- End of forwarded message ----------

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Urdhvaga Prabhu, I found the following comment by Tamoharadasa MSc on your website <Rocana Prabhu (ACBSP): Reform yes, but I hate the Ritviks>:

"Only wishy-washy or watered-down versions of ritvik are allowed at the Sampradaya Sun, so don’t be fooled into thinking there is any freedom of speech there, except the freedom to be used by the Sampradaya Sun to promote Rocana’s own pre-approved ideas. He approves and selects only those articles which support his designs and philosophy. You will never get a holistic picture from Rocana prabhu’s site, so don’t be misguided by his strongly-biased propaganda machine."

I completely agree. The above testimony is more evidence that Mahesh Prabhu is simply being used by Rocana to promote the ISKCON "guru" bashing "On my order" and "Initiating guru must be uttama" arguments, which seem on the surface to be pro-ritvik, but which, in actuality are easily defeated, and are, therefore, simply an embarrassment to the ritviks. Better to stick with the simple, straightforward arguments presented on <http://rtvik.com/>, a link to which Rocana would never give in a million years, because he knows that he cannot defeat it.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Mahesh Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

1. The Nectar of Instruction, verse 5 purport states: "A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, ..."<http://bit.ly/9S3Wio>.

2. Srila Prabhupada authorized the ISKCON GBC body to act on his behalf. Therefore they have been authorized by Srila Prabhupada to authorize diksa gurus in accordance with the above quoted purport.

3. But what about the July 9th letter, you may ask? While it's true that the ISKCON GBC has thus far chosen to ignore the July 9th, 1977 letter, such ignoring of Srila Prabhupada's written, signed documents is not without precedent. They have been ignoring the voting provision of the DOM ever since 1970. Srila Prabhupada had 7 years to declare the GBC to be bogus for their obvious negligence, but he never did. However, Srila Prabhupada's managerial decisions for ISKCON cannot be ignored forever, even by the GBC. The longer that the GBC men put off full compliance with Srila Prabhupada's orders, the more that they are going to have to suffer, and the more that Srila Prabhupada's beloved Hare Krishna Movement will be unnecessarily stymied.

For one to promote such easily defeated arguments in the name of the ritviks is simply an embarrassment to the ritviks.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Pratyatosa das prabhu wrote: *Kanisthas and Madhyamas CAN be diksa gurus if they are authorized by their guru to do so. *  Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa +++++++++++++++   EVEN accepting YOUR argument - you say IF they are AUTHORISED. NO they are NOT authorised AT ALL .Here is the PROOF that ONLY MAHABHAGAVAT is AUTHORISED:     Madhya 24.330  The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse                       maha-bhagavata-srestho                      brahmano vai gurur nrnam                        sarvesam eva lokanam                       asau pujyo yatha harih      The guru MUST be situated on the TOPMOST platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the TOPMOST class.   NoD 8                 Offenses to Be Avoided    The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows:  (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.   For Kanistha or Madhyama adhikari to go against THIS instruction is they have ZERO spiritual life - finnished!  CRYSTAL CLEAR - TRANSPARENT INSTRUCTION. This is Srila Prabhupada who has stated THIS. With the authority of Caitanya Caritamrta. Do you accept it NOW?    ys mahesh

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Mahesh Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

You have replied with another one of your snow-jobs, which almost no one bothers to read.

You have also given your own concocted interpretation of NoI 5, but the ISKCON GBC obviously interprets it differently. Srila Prabhupada authorized the ISKCON GBC body to represent him, not you or Rocana Prabhu.

If you are actually a ritvik, like you claim to be, then why are you wasting your time, spinning your wheels? Let's just stick to the simple, straightforward logic of <http://rtvik.com/>, and not get distracted in this way.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

Please accept my humble Obeisances Hare Krsna!   NoI 5                               In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.   The quote in question:  Please note there is NO MENTION of Diksa. BUT it does say INSUFFICENT GUIDANCE this is SIKSA. There ARE siksa disciples also. You are  PRESUMING IT IS DIKSA. The quote is NOT saying DIKSA.  Furthermore, Diksa as per DEFINATION can NOT be given by contaminated soul. Kansitha is CONTAMINATED  soul he can NOT give DIKSA and MADHYAMA is RECEPIENT of DIKSA.   We are NOT talking about FORMALITY 1st and 2nd initiation:   761016iv.cha Conversations Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.   What we are taking about is when the RECEPIENT of DIKSA WHO IS  MADHYAMA ADHIKARI  has got SPIRITUAL INITIATION. Krsna is TRANSFERED in the HEART of MADHYAMA adhikari FROM Uttama Adhikari. (Divya janana HRDAYA Prokasito). AT THIS POINT - THE SINS ARE VANQUISHED. HIS RELATIONSHIP IS REVEALED (dasya, sakhya,vatsalya or madhurya). He relishes the mellows (RASAS) of devotional service in either servant,friend etc. This is WHY diksa is so important. He CAN SEE Krsna and his SVARUPA (constitutional position is REVEALED to him) IN HIS HEART. (spiritual televison in heart)  Only a MAHA BHAGAVATA can give THIS DIKSA. WHY? Because a MAHABHAGAVATA carries Krsna in his heart.   SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb    As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva's mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one's own heart.          Now we will study what  Diksa  is because we want to determine if Kanistha or Madhyama can give Diksa. Madhya 15.108  The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya    Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):                                         divyam jnanam yato dadyat                      kuryat papasya sanksayam                     tasmad dikseti sa prokta                      desikais tattva-kovidaih      "Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."   Madhya 4.111  Sri Madhavendra Puri' s Devotional Service   Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination. BUT since Kanistha adhikari  (QUALIFIED Brahmana)  is HIMSELF  contaminated  HOW CAN HE GIVE DIKSA to another WHO becomes freed from ALL material contamination.   This is completely illogical!    Bg 7.14 P            Knowledge of the Absolute    Another meaning of guna is rope; it is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself--he must be helped by a person who is unbound. Because the bound cannot help the bound, the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore, only Lord Krsna, or His bona fide representative the spiritual master, can release the conditioned soul.   SB 9.19.25 P      King Yayati Achieves Liberation    The word vidhuta, meaning "cleansed," is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango 'sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. 770214r2.may Conversations Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava. Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing. Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall down. Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari. Prabhupada: Kanistha? Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes. Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari. arcayam eva haraye pujam yah sraddhayehate na tad-bhaktesu canyesu sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava. Hari-sauri: No question of? Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.   3)    Madhyam  adhikari is the RECEPIENT of  Diksa so HOW can we say that he gives Diksa?  Madhyama adhikari means MIDDLE stage he is at the RECEIVING end of Diksa.   NoI 5  A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service. Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama TRANSLATION "At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.   TEXT 193 sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya TRANSLATION "When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.   TEXT 194 martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma niveditatma vicikirsito me tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai TRANSLATION " 'The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.' PURPORT This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139). ANTYA 4 TEXT 193 "When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.   Bg 4.19 T Transcendental Knowledge yasya sarve samarambhah kama-sankalpa-varjitah jnanagni-dagdha-karmanam tam ahuh panditam budhah TRANSLATION One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every act is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker whose fruitive action is burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge. PURPORT Only a person in full knowledge can understand the activities of a person in Krsna consciousness. Because the person in Krsna consciousness is devoid of all kinds of sense-gratificatory propensities, it is to be understood that he has burned up the reactions of his work by *perfect knowledge of his constitutional position as the eternal servitor* of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is actually learned who has attained to such perfection of knowledge. Development of this knowledge of the eternal servitorship of the Lord is compared to fire. Such a fire, once kindled, can burn up all kinds of reactions to work.    Srila Prabhupada does NOT say that Madhyama Adhikari or Kanistha adhikaris are Diksa guru in the paragraph (NOI 5). So NOBODY should PRESUME they are diksa guru.  Insufficent guidance means INSTRUCTION (SIKSA). The quote is NOT talking about DIKSA.   Now, ANYONE who says GBC can authorize Mahabhagavatas to give DIKSA is a MADMAN. There is BIG difference between FORMALITY initiation (1st and 2nd initiation) AND the DIKSA given to MADHAYAM adhikari by the Mahabhagavata.   Note: If you want Krsna televised (DIKSA) in your heart - you can ONLY get that from MAHA BHAGAVATA (our beloved Srila Prabhupada) by chanting OFFENCELESS. And that is available at MADHYAMA adhikari stage.    SB 2.9.35 P    Answers by Citing the Lord' s Version    Therefore, although He is present in every atom, the Supreme Personality of Godhead may not be visible to the dry speculators; still the mystery is unfolded before the eyes of the pure devotees because their eyes are anointed with love of Godhead. And this love of Godhead can be attained only by the practice of transcendental loving service of the Lord, and nothing else. The vision of the devotees is not ordinary; it is purified by the process of devotional service. In other words, as the universal elements are both within and without, similarly the Lord's name, form, quality, pastimes, entourage, etc., as they are described in the revealed scriptures or as performed in the Vaikunthalokas, far, far beyond the material cosmic manifestation, are factually being televised in the heart of the devotee. The man with a poor fund of knowledge cannot understand, although by material science one can see things far away by means of television. Factually, the spiritually developed person is able to have the television of the kingdom of God always reflected within his heart. That is the mystery of knowledge of the Personality of Godhead.   LCFL                   Life Comes From Life Srila Prabhupada. But there are better telephones that they do not know about. In Bhagavad-gita, Sanjaya demonstrated this when he was sitting with his master, Dhrtarastra, and relating all the affairs that were taking place far away on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. Sanjaya's vision was actually greater than the telephone. It was mystic television. It was television within the heart, for he was sitting in a room far from the battlefield and still seeing everything that was occurring there. In Bhagavad-gita, Dhrtarastra inquired of Sanjaya, "How are my sons and nephews? What are they doing?" Then Sanjaya described how Duryodhana was going to Dronacarya, what Dronacarya was speaking, how Duryodhana was replying, and so on. Even though these activities were too far away to be seen by ordinary eyes, Sanjaya could see and describe them through his mystic power. That is real science.   KB 80     The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana    "If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one's father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one. Whereas Srila Prabhupada has given the Ritvik system (9TH JULY 1977) FORMALITIES of 1st and 2nd initiation can be done by others BUT it MUST UNDERSTOOD THE -ONE- INITATOR IS SRILA PRABHUPADA.     ys mahesh

[Mahesh Raja]

Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obeisances Hare Krsna!

You are presenting yourself a Ritvik. This is just a FALSE FRONT. Actually you support your wife and the bogus GBC. YOU are COMPROMISED. You do NOT fool ANYONE.   ys mahesh

--- On Mon, 26/7/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

[larry freeman p]

actually to this 'group'
don't both Pratyatosa and Mahesh accept 'ritvik'?
and even present ritvik as the 'answer'?
both are preaching this positively,
in their best 'way'.
Pratyatosa has an excellent website expertly promoting ritvik;
ritvik.com
Mahesh has an extensive array of quotes that also can help promote ritvik.
maybe his quotes can be manipulated by GBC manipulators?
but, for some the 'truth' is simple,
and his quotes can help.
so, if Rocana wants to advertise ritvik via Mahesh's quotes, at least it gets the ritvik position 'out there'; more so.
as Prabhupad said:  good press or bad press, it's all promoting, etc.
instead of shooting each other, constantly,
at least we all agree:  phony gurus cause chaos, and ritvik is the simple 'answer'.
Prabhupad's 'final order', 'henceforward'.

[Ken McLEOD]

Dear Pratyatosa

even though you would probably never listen to Kirtananda. He told me personally that the GBC were never, ever, to function in the manner that you are claiming, eg: the GBC represent Srila Prabhupada and are therefore authorized to 2/3rd vote in the gurus. This is an absurd misrepresentation. The GBC were meant to meet once a year briefly, but instead they now meet for day's on end for politics due to this invented heresy. Hundreds of voted in gurus competing for good little worker bees and Srila Prabhupadas daksina can never ever be for the greater good of Iskcon. Let them go out on their own if they are as qualified as they are being presented, and then we will see what they are made of!

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 21:40:00 -0400
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?
To: mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk
CC: Urdh...@aol.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com

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[ameyatma das [ACBSP]]

Again

I am short on time, and will most likely only make this one post on this.   I am jumping in the middle of an on-going argument,   but,  what i saw was Pratyatosh quote from NOI    that :

"A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples,

this is not really a quote, it is a partial quote at best.   The entire purport is explaining that one must take association and shelter of the Uttama Adhikari.  And just reading one sentence before, the full sentence quoted and the sentence after gives a whole other meaning.   
"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

I do not agree with your rash statement that Mahesh is snow-jobbing... in fact,   i really question where you are at...        

In a preceeding paragraph Srla Prabhupad also said :  " Indeed, the advanced uttama-adhikari Vaisnava devotee should be accepted as a spiritual master."   As I said, the entire purport drives one to the conclusion of only taking shelter and association of the Uttama Adhikari.    Srila Prabhupad says that one should not become a spiritual master unless he become uttama-adhikari.  Then, he follows this immediately by saying that a Neophyte on the INTERMEDIATE platform CAN also accept disciples, BUT.... such disciples must be on the SAME plaform AND they cannot advance very well toward the Ultimate Goal of life under his INSUFFICIENT guidance.       Analyze this further.   From the person accepting the disciples....   Prabhupad clearly states that no one should accept disciples until he attains to the Uttama Adhikari platform.   So, anyone who has NOT attained the highest perfectional stage, and yet presents himself as Guru is right out of the bag already acting AGAINST the instructions of Srila Prabhupad.     Then Prabhupad says that a Neophyte CAN accept disciples, BUT...   This word "CAN" means just that.   A neophyte Can,  but, not without consequences for those who accept him as their guide.     Before we go further,      note the contradictory words Prabhupad uses...   He first calls this person who CAN take disciples as a NEOPHYTE,  but, then clarifies just what sort of Neophyte he is speaking of.    A neophyte on the INTERMEDIATE Platform.   In this purport Srila Prabhupad was speaking of 3 stages,  a Kanishtha Adhikari, Madyama Adhikari and Uttama Adhikari.   Generally when Srila Prabhupad uses the word Neophyte he would be referring to the Kanistha platform,   but, here he obviously is not. Here he explicitly qualifies this neophyte as one on the Intermediate platform.  Previously in that same purport Srila Prabhupad used the English word Intermediate for the Sanskirt word Madhyama.   The actual meaning of the word Madhyam is Middle or Intermediate.  Srila Prabhupad is not meaning Kanistha, but explicitly states Intermediate, or Madhyam- Middle - platform.   But, why is such person called NEOPHYTE?   Because,   they are not yet on the highest level.   AND,  they are engaging in activities which are strongly discouraged.   Srila Prabhupad had just said, prior to the quote in question, that:  "However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will eventually become degraded."    Then he says that one should not become guru unless one is Uttama Adhikari.   Thus, someone who is on the Intermediate level,   and takes disciples,   he is, in fact, trying to Imitate the Behavior of the Maha Bhagavat, or Uttama Adhikari.      By such IMITATION one will eventually become DEGRADED.     Thus,   someone who is one the Middle platform who takes disciples is, in effect, trying to IMITATE the Maha Bhagavat,    thus, even though that devotee is on the Intermediate platform, he is actually a NEOPHYTE.   And, by his actions of IMITATING the real MahaBhagavat, he will eventually become Degraded.     This is Precisely what all of us have been witnessing for the past 33 years.  One Neophyte Madhyam after another trying to Imitate SP and in the end, becoming degraded. 

Still, he CAN take disciples,   BUT,   the disciples should be on the SAME Platform.  This is another interesting comment.  Previously in the purport Srila Prabhupad states that one can rise to the Middle platform only after taking initiation.   Then, how can one be on the SAME intermediary level to take shelter of another intermediate devotee?    Thus, is this section speaking of Diksha or Siksha only????    If one has not already taken diksha,  then one cannot be on the Intermediary platform.   But, Prabhupad says the Intermediate devotee 'can' take disciples,   but, they must be on the Same Intermediate level first....    then he must not be referring to Diksha guru, but Siksha guru...  and giving their siksha to devotes who are already initiated or on the middle platform.    Even IF we are speaking of Diksha,    still,   the understanding i get from this purport, as a whole,     is that one should ONLY seek association, guidance (siksha) and DIKSHA from the Uttama Adhikari,   even though a Neophyte Madhyama 'can' take disciples,    it is NOT at all advised,  or desired.    They will more or less be stuck at that level....
 
In conclusion, Srila Prabhupad says, clearly,  Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

I find that simply taking a partial quote     that a neophyte madhyama 'can' accept disciples without surrounding that partial quote with the full explanation is simply misleading others.  It is irresponsible and comes under the Cheating tendency.   NO ONE should ever encourage anyone that they 'can' take initiation from anyone less than Uttama Adhikari.  That is exactly the conclusion Srila Prabhupad explicitly states in this purport.  No Where in the whole purport is he encouraging that one can take from less then highest devotee.  He discourages it.   Thus, to follow his guidance means that one should only do the same, and only encourage others that they should only take shelter association and guidance from the Uttama Adhikari.  Period.    

We must preach the TRUTH   boldly.  Those who are taking up the position of Guru who are NOT on the Uttama platform are simply NEOPHYTES who are trying toIMITATE the Maha Bhagavat.  Srila Prabhupad clearly states that the fate of these imitators is they will eventually become degraded.   This is the Truth of the matter.  And, that is the Truth that has been Absent in ISKCON for 33 long years.   

Pratyatosh speaks of the 'gbc' as being entrusted with the duty of Representing Srila Prabhupad.   Actually, from the DOM to his Last Will,   Srila Prabhupad called them EXECUTORS of his instructions.  Executors of the will of HDG.    They are to EXECUTE his instructions,  Execute his orders.   That is their Dharma, their constitutional position.   Thus,   when they cease to execute his order,   they have CEASED being his authorized GBC representatives.     

From the very beginning even before Srila Prabhupad departed we have raw direct experience of these men disobeying SP's instructions.   They lost their qualifications to be called GBC many years ago.    The most DAMNING evidence that they have not executed Srila Prabhupad instructions is the 1974 Topmost Urgency document, which just surfaced and became known to us just a few short years ago.    This is a clear, written decree, signed with witnesses, where Srila Prabhupad gave a clearly defined written order,    simple order, to take that very document and amend all of ISKCON's corporations with that simple document.   That he said, was a TOPMOST URGENT order given by him in writing, with signature, stating it was to be done  IMMEDIATELY.   It was never properly and fully executed by those men who claimed to be the gbc.    

That, is the starting place where a thorough investigation must be undertaken by unbiased brahamans to find out WHY it was not followed, and who did not follow it,  and why, how and who kept this document secret all those years.   

Dont' talk to me about GBC   until this issue is resolved.   Those who do NOT execute SP's instructions are, by Prabhupad's own definition of the term,   NOT GBC.   So far, the current so-called gbc have not shown One Speck of interest to finally EXECUTE this still standing Written Order by SP.   Rather, they have been meeting and planning for years how to nulify this order, to write their own defiant amendments, intending to totally make the order by SP null and void.   This is not the definition of GBC,   who are defined by SP to be EXECUTORS of his instructions.   

This 1974 decree is the key.  It is the litmus test for determining if one is a real GBC or not.   Any one who proclaims themselves GBC who claims that this decree is not to be executed is simply a cheater.   A rogue and rascal,   and those cheaters should be removed from Srila Prabhupad's mission and a new and REAL GBC be elected to replace them,  A REAL GBC are those men who give their Lives, cent-per-cent, to EXECUTE SP's instructions.   The 1974 Topmost Urgency Decree was left by SP and Krishna as a means to re-correct his mission,   when the proper time comes.  All we can do is pray that the time will come within our lifetime,   but,  it will come, eventually.  
 
ys ameyatma das

[Madhusudana dasa]

well said

---

From: ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>
To: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 8:38:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Ameyatma Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

In parts of your email you are talking about me. In another part of it you seem to be talking to me, but it's not clear. When is the last time that you said "Dear .... Prabhu," "PAMHO," "AGTSP," or even "Prabhu?" You say, "i really question where you are at... , " but the same thing could be said about you, could it not?

You say that the GBC is bogus because they don't follow the DOM, but at what point did they become bogus? If they weren't bogus for not following the DOM after 7 years, then why are they bogus after not following it for 40 years? If they were bogus in 1977, after not following the DOM for 7 years, then why didn't Srila Prabhupada tell us that they were bogus? Are we simply supposed to take your word for it that now they are bogus? You seem to simply make things up as you go along, with no exact quotes to back it up.

Why don't you have any time? Srila Prabhupada said over and over again that his disciples take vanaprastha at age 50! You must be well past that age by now. When are you going to finally start following Srila Prabhupada's instructions and take vanaprastha? (No more sex, no more house, no more car, no more job, and no more business!) If the GBC is, according to you, bogus for not following every single one of Srila Prabhupada's instructions all of the time, then where does that leave you? Why not simply have your wife and kids become part of the devotee community at ISKCON Bangalore? Why make things so complicated?

What I said to Mahesh Prabhu still stands. You have not said anything which even comes close to defeating it:

1. The Nectar of Instruction, verse 5 purport states: "A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, ..."<http://bit.ly/9S3Wio>.

2. Srila Prabhupada authorized the ISKCON GBC body to act on his behalf. Therefore they have been authorized by Srila Prabhupada to authorize diksa gurus in accordance with the above quoted purport.

3. But what about the July 9th letter, you may ask? While it's true that the ISKCON GBC has thus far chosen to ignore the July 9th, 1977 letter, such ignoring of Srila Prabhupada's written, signed documents is not without precedent. They have been ignoring the voting provision of the DOM ever since 1970. Srila Prabhupada had 7 years to declare the GBC to be bogus for their obvious negligence, but he never did. However, Srila Prabhupada's managerial decisions for ISKCON cannot be ignored forever, even by the GBC. The longer that the GBC men put off full compliance with Srila Prabhupada's orders, the more that they are going to have to suffer, and the more that Srila Prabhupada's beloved Hare Krishna Movement will be unnecessarily stymied.

For one to promote such easily defeated arguments in the name of the ritviks is simply an embarrassment to the ritviks.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[mark mclaughlin]

Pratyatosa das wrote: 2. Srila Prabhupada authorized the ISKCON GBC body to act on his behalf. Therefore they have been authorized by Srila Prabhupada to authorize diksa gurus in accordance with the above quoted purport.

Acting on his behalf is limited to following the precise instructions He gave.  There are many things Srila Prabhupada did that the GBC is certainly not authorized to imitate. The GBC were never authorized to authorize Diksa Gurus.  They did not recieve that authorization.  In any even that is something a person can do through realization only, not appointment. They can certainly observe and monitor all Siksa going on through neophytes and Madhyams, and are authorized to give correction or even excommunication to anyone giving Siksa that diverges from Srila Prabhupada's instructions.  That is about it.  The information in the NOI 5 purport can not in any logical way be construed as an order to ordain Neophyte Diksa Guru's within Iskcon, especially with all the other contrary information in the very same purport, not to mention the Ritvik order. Hare Krsna ys B.Mark Date: Monday, July 26, 2010, 8:36 AM

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

You, like Ameyatma Prabhu, seem to be simply making things up as you go along, with no quotes to back it up. For example, where is a quote to back up, "The GBC were never authorized to authorize Diksa Gurus?" You seem to be promoting a system of anarchy. Srila Prabhupada always kept who got 1st and 2nd initiation under the strict control of himself, the GBC representatives, and the temple presidents. Why should today be any different?

Even though the "on my order" and the "only uttamas can perform diksa" arguments are easily defeated, IMHO, the following pro-ritvik argument, even though it is not included on <http://rtvik.com/>, is nevertheless very compelling:

1. From <http://bit.ly/axjUmV>: "... as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation."

2. From <http://bit.ly/9AMWxG>: "I will never die. ... I shall live forever in my books ..."

3. From <http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=8098>: "He reasons ill that Vaisnavas die ..."

4. From <http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9902/ET17-3077.html>: "Iskcon Is Srila Prabhupada's Body ..."

Therefore, we shouldn't think that, within Srila Prabhupada's own institution, we can accept disciples on our own behalf. Srila Prabhupada obviously tricked the "guru wannabes" by writing what he did in #1 above. Since Srila Prabhupada is eternally present in his books and especially in his beloved ISKCON, we are therefore prohibited by statement #1 above from taking on disciples on our own behalf, especially within ISKCON.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Bhaktatraveler]

Hmmmmmm, does Mahesh Raja have a point?

RCB

---

From: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Cc: Urdh...@aol.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 9:51:05 PM

[Bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Pratyatosa d

2. Srila Prabhupada authorized the ISKCON GBC body to act on his behalf. Therefore they have been authorized by Srila Prabhupada to authorize diksa gurus in accordance with the above quoted purport.

Never anywhere did Srila Prabhupada say anyone could appoint diksa gurus, there is only one diksa Guru in ISKCON, IS_A_CON is another thing altogether. This is simply an embarrassment to the Rtvik conclusions. Your either in ISKCON or IS_A_CON. In or out, please get off the fence! No 3 is crap too. Your in essence saying that because a thing has been done badly, there is no reason now to change back to the right way. And it would give precedent to do other things wrongly.

Bangalore is the new boss same as the old boss, no DVD is a scam. Vaisyas in charge again!

Hare Krsna

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 8:36:15 AM

Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

[Bhaktatraveler]

Yes well put and correct.

RCB

---

From: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 9:21:47 AM

Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

[Bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Pratyatosa

The GBC can not appoint initiating guru that take disciples on their own behalf. Yet your wording would indicate just such a conclusion.

A rtvik is not a diksa guru. Srila Prabhupada is! Initiation is not given by the rtvik as such. Rtvik presides over the formality, local  senior men recommend the candidate and give siksa. Srila Prabhupada remains always as the diksa GURU, rtvik is only a deputy!

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
Cc: ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 10:06:28 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

--

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Caturbahu Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Reinstating Srila Prabhupada's ingenious ritvik system of initiations is the obvious solution, and since it is Srila Prabhupada's crystal-clear prescription for future initiations within ISKCON, it's not a matter of if; it's a matter of "When?"

The sooner that the GBC finally surrenders to the inevitable, the better. The ritvik system will give the GBC men and the temple presidents more control over initiations, not less. Then ISKCON can again start functioning like a good ship with a good captain, and the Hare Krishna Movement will again take off like a rocket! :-)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Pratyatosa d

This is well and good, but what about the rtvik as giver of diksa, as in bhakti lata bija? Are you saying that the appointed rtvik gives this bija as a regular diksa guru?

Hare Krsna

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 10:59:38 AM

Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

[Pratyatosa]

Of course not. Srila Prabhupada called them "ritvik representatives of the Acarya." Do you think that Srila Prabhupada appointed that motley crew of 11 to be regular diksa gurus? To think that way is an insult to Srila Prabhupada!

Ys, Ptd

[Bhaktatraveler]

So what do you mean when you say the GBC can appoint diksa gurus?

"2. Srila Prabhupada authorized the ISKCON GBC body to act on his behalf.
Therefore they have been authorized by Srila Prabhupada to authorize diksa
gurus in accordance with the above quoted purport."

Hare Krsna

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com

Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:22:42 AM

Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

[Pratyatosa]

You have taken it out of context. Please read the whole thing:

http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/53994a514a57b389

Ys, Ptd

[mark mclaughlin]

PAMHO Pratyatosa das You said. "The GBC have been authorized by Srila Prabhupada to authorize Diksa gurus." This claim of yours was made on the strength of another statement that you made. "Srila Prabhupada authorized Iskcon GBC to act on His Behalf." You concluded that "acting on behalf" logically leads to "authorizing Diksa Gurus". Perhaps you are referring to the fact that, on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, they have the power to do exactly what SP did do, and would do now. That is to PROHIBIT neophytes and madhyams from giving Diksa within Iskcon, and PROHIBIT neophytes or madhyams from giving any Siksa instruction not in line with our Guru's Vani. The GBC and Ritviks are supposed to be overseeing the local Temple Presidents as well as the senior, intermediate, and junior disciples who are in that local jurisdiction.  If they are all observed to be following the standards, they are not interfered with. It wouldn't matter if the TP was a madhyam, and everyone else in the temple was Madhyam or Kanistha.  The STANDARD is that the TP may accept a new man as candidate for initiation, and send that recommendation to the Ritvik.  In the mean time he may give relevant Siksa instructions according to Srila Prabhupada's vani.  When the Ritvik sends word that he has accepted the aspirant on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, then the TP supervises a ceremony and the new initiate is linked up to UTTAMA adhikari by Diksa.  Thus we have intermediate and beginner devotees in a temple giving relevant Siksa according to their understanding, and helping with the Diksa initiation process on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, as deputies. So as you can see, the GBC has no power to authorize Diksa Gurus because within Iskcon that position is already filled by the inconceivable potency of the order of the Maha-Bhagavat Acarya and his merciful plan to offer a link to himself in such a way.  I am not making this up.  This is the system. Hare Krsna ys B.Mark

You, like Ameyatma Prabhu, seem to be simply making things up as you go along, with no quotes to back it up. For example, where is a quote to back up, "The GBC were never authorized to authorize Diksa Gurus?" You seem to be promoting a system of anarchy. Srila Prabhupada always kept who got 1st and 2nd initiation under the strict control of himself, the GBC representatives, and the temple presidents. Why should today be any different?

--- On Mon, 7/26/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this? To: "mark mclaughlin" <markm...@yahoo.com>

[Bhaktatraveler]

Ok I see what your saying there. But I have to wonder how it is that you are so supportive of your wife being a guru in IS_A_CON. How to reconcile such a thing?

But what about your post to Ameyattma stating that .......

"You say that the GBC is bogus because they don't follow the DOM, but at what
point did they become bogus? If they weren't bogus for not following the DOM
after 7 years, then why are they bogus after not following it for 40 years?
If they were bogus in 1977, after not following the DOM for 7 years, then
why didn't Srila Prabhupada tell us that they were bogus? Are we simply
supposed to take your word for it that now they are bogus? You seem to

simply make things up as you go along, with no exact quotes to back it up."

1. Does it really matter a what point the GBC became bogus?

2. The "then why didn't Srila Prabhupada tell us that they were bogus?" is a strawman! He did tell you. He disband them a couple of times. Prabhupada told you in His books about the standards that equate to high class devotees, you chose to follow a cult. Why did Prabhupada name monkeys to high position of rtviks? Does not make the rtvik instruction bogus as much as Prabhupada not disbanding the GBC before His samadhi does not make them authorized. 

3. Bogus is as bogus does!!!!!!!!!

Hare Krsna

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; ameyatma das [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Urdh...@aol.com; lak...@webtv.net; urmilad...@gmail.com; s...@harekrsna.com; Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net; ange...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; july9...@yahoo.com; kurmano...@live.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com

Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:41:50 AM

Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this?

[Pratyatosa]

All that I'm saying is, why water things down, like Mahesh is doing, just so that we can get something published on the Sampradaya Sun? Something which may seem, on the surface, to be pro-ritvik, but which, in actuality is simply an embarrassment to the ritviks?

Rocana's guru-tattva philosophy is a joke. I haven't heard of one single devotee who takes him seriously. A few devotees humor him so that they can get published on his website, but that's about it. I wouldn't be surprised if our Prabhupadanuga forum already gets more hits than the Sampradaya Sun. If not, then it's just a matter of time. Rocana and his wife work very hard to put new stuff up on their website each and every day, but they only have a Google Page Rank of 3. Madhudvisa's <http://prabhupadabooks.com/> site, on the other hand, was started much more recently and he doesn't have to do anything to maintain it. It never changes! Yet it has a Google Page Rank of 4! (See <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/browse_thread/thread/74f9696891f2c2f9/> for more devotee website Google Page Ranks.)

Puranjana Prabhu is in charge of the ISKCON "guru" bashing department. He's doing a much better job of it than any of us could ever even hope to do, and he's not compromising in order to try to get something published on the Sun. For one thing, his "guru" bashing web pages also include Rocana<http://harekrsna.org/gbc/black/rocana.htm>.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

The only reason that the GBC has been forced to make so many complicated rules pertaining to the "gurus" is because they have ignored the July 9th letter. Now things are very confusing, especially for the new recruits. Therefore, let's try to encourage other ISKCON temples to follow in the footsteps of the most successful ISKCON temple: ISKCON Bangalore.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Oops! My mistake. According to <http://www.prchecker.info/check_page_rank.php> <http://harekrsna.com/> has a Google Page Rank of 3, but <http://harekrsna.com/sun/> is 4, which is the same as <http://chakra.org/>, but which is better than <http://dandavats.com/> (GPR = 3).

[mario pineda]

Hare Krishna.

The only way that ISKCON will implement the DOM, the July 9th directive and the last will and testament, is if they are taken to court.  Someone should go to a qualified attorney with these documents and ask if they are bases for ISKCON to either adopt these documents and siddhanta or give up the ISKCON name.

I think that the Turley law firm that won the molestation case for he children, may be a good law firm to consult with.

Jai Srila Prabhupada!

Mahatma dasa

--

[mark mclaughlin]

Dear Prabhu, You made some claims about GBC authority and whether that GBC is loyal and proper or heinously fallen is beside the point.  You mistakenly ascribed a power to them they were never given, nor meant to have. Just because they are doing that thing does not mean they were authorized to do it.  Saying that the only reason they are doing it is because they disobeyed the Ritvik order is one way of putting it, but is irrelevant to your faulty claim. This is an intellegent circle of devotees, and what you said did not make sense.  That was the reason a couple of us chimed in.  If it had been correct, you would have been able to your defend you claim with evidence when challenged.  So what you leave us with is another reiteration of your ritvik position which has not changed since I have been listening to you. If you want to try to convince the GBC society of west bengal to use the ritvik system among their stolen temples, you have my blessing and I hope it works out.  But if that crusade of yours is going to require you to say things that aren't exactly in line with siddhanta in order to cajole these men into some compromise with you, you should not expect a very nice result and also realize some devotees will just call you on it especially in a public forum. It would be nice if they all got a clue and had an epiphany, but i can't plan my life around such an unlikely eventuality which even if it ever did occur after years of struggle, would then proceed to result in massive power struggles and infighting for more years.  In the meantime I will continue try and follow more instructions in my own life as I can add new ones and everyone else is on their own. Hare Krsna ys B.Mark

--- On Mon, 7/26/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pratyatosa Prabhu can you,your wife Urmila dasi plus SAC defeat this? To: "mark mclaughlin" <markm...@yahoo.com> Cc: "ameyatma das [ACBSP]" <amey...@gmail.com>, "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, Urdh...@aol.com, bhaktat...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, urmilad...@gmail.com, s...@harekrsna.com, Bir.Krishna...@pamho.net, ange...@yahoo.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kurmano...@live.com, magf...@wowway.com, miloni...@yahoo.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, sudhras...@gmail.com, yasod...@yahoo.com

[Pratyatosa]

Yes, Mahatma Prabhu, "Speak softly and carry a big stick!"

Speaking softly is what I've been trying to do. The "big stick" is a lawsuit. We have a good case. The question is, "Is the time right?"

Here are some ideas:

http://pratyatosa.com/ClassActionLawsuit2.htm

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[tim lee]

AINDRA DASA (AD): Without having come to the perfectional stage of para bhakti, raga-mayi-bhava-bhakti, in one’s service to guru and Krishna, none can legitimately claim to have personally gained revelation of the deepest imports of the scriptures.

 

[PD: Aindra dasa is saying that while many ISKCON leaders have claimed to be gurus, acharyas and even "Vishnupada parampara members" and so on, these grandiose claims are "not legitimate" because "none can legitimately claim to have personally gained revelations ... without having come to the perfectional stage." Aindra dasa later explains that these ISKCON leaders have merely "externally" annointed themselves by artificially "rubber stamping" themselves with such grandiose titles.

Srila Prabhupada constantly warned about this process of artificially advertising oneself as guru and self realized ... "without having personally gained revelations of the deepest imports of the scriptures" and he says this in many instances, as he does for example in May of 1977:

Bhavananda: (After you depart Srila Prabhupada) There will be men, I know. There will be men who want to try and pose themselves as Guru.
Tamala Krishna: That was going on many years ago. Your Godbrothers were thinking
like that. Madhava Maharaja...
Bhavananda: Oh, yes. Oh, ready to jump.
Srila Prabhupada: Very strong management required and vigilant observation.
(Room Conversation, May 27th, 1977)

In other words, Srila Prabhupada repeatedly warned against artificialy "guru" outcroppings, and he wanted his followers to "vigilantly manage" his society so these deviations would not occur. It is now self-evident that "vigilant managing" to prevent false gurus has not been done. The orders to be vigilant against false gurus was not only meant for just the ISKCON leaders, it is also the duty of the rank and file devotees to insure that the integrity of ISKCON is upheld. In any case Aindra is saying the claims of perfectional guru status without factual realization is "not legitimate."]

Read more: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=52199499&blogId=537572664#ixzz0uqOh4us3