Non Tech Assessment re Promotion and General Usage

[Les Henderson]

I was put onto Habari by a big fan user and thought I'd try to get it running because I like to support what might be perceived to be underdogs. After dickering with it a bit from the perspective of a person who doesn't hold a degree in Computer Science or Artificial Intelligence I have to note that I see opportunities for improvement, not of the program but the way it is promoted and supported.

I don't say this to be critical but rather that I am excited about seeing an underutilized opportunity. I love Open Source and free things but realize that they require a lot of devotional free labour and kind contributions to keep alive. I've run a free resource for a decade and it's cost me tens of thousands in unwanted legal fees and more again for my time.

Presently I find the documentation way over the heads of even someone like myself who can usually figure things out, given enough time. I wonder if the core group of supporters would be horribly distraught if I arranged to organize and fund a more user friendly users group website that I'd have to fund with Adsense?

Then I could approach it from a noob's perspective and hopefully get more people on board as users, rather than let it languish and fade away, something I fear I see happening. I'm open to ideas and discussions and really mean no unintended offence.

Anyway, I get a lot of foolish brainstorms about adoption when I see things I like that are suffering. We have several dogs and cats that came as strays. Ha.

[Owen Winkler]

On 12/30/2012 7:48 PM, Les Henderson wrote:
>
> Presently I find the documentation way over the heads of even someone
> like myself who can usually figure things out, given enough time. I
> wonder if the core group of supporters would be horribly distraught if I
> arranged to organize and fund a more user friendly users group website
> that I'd have to fund with Adsense?

What would you like to build? Maybe we can set it up on our hosting and
give you and other contributors access to it.

You're welcome to produce your own site and put Adsense on it, but if
the reason for Adsense is to cover the costs, we can possibly get around
that.

Owen

[Les Henderson]

Money's not a big issue for me and hosting is pretty cheap. Sometimes though it is a stumbling block for smart young minds with a limited beer budget and causes good projects to needlessly cease operations.

My concern is seeing other similar projects take off while this one appears to be slowly losing interest from its core supporters. This may a totally wrong assumption based solely on seeing people set up Habari-based sites a year or so back, all excited, and then letting them sit unchanged since then, as they move onto another tech challenge. Lots of "I love Habari but now I'm running with Drupal or Concrete5, or building a Mars lander in my basement".

Then there is the gap in postings here in Google Groups and general lack of noob questions. 500 odd members for a 5 year project? I just think there is a missing market between someone like me and your current user base and I'd like to somehow kickstart it into action before it's too late.

Maybe I'm way off base here and this is just natural selection at work, but I've often seen where the melding of totally different skill sets creates a stronger organization. I've also seen where inflexible originators refuse to loosen their grip as they alienate even their strongest supporters.

Right now, I'd just like to hear what direction people hope to see Habari going in and what they see as non-tech issues that need improvement. Maybe I'm not needed at all if I'm wrong in my assessment. Maybe just talking about it will fix things. Maybe the volunteer base has gotten so small that it's too much for them to keep up?

If I didn't get the glowing testimonial and see a site in active vibrant use, I think I would have gone elsewhere based on a few fixable shortfalls. It would just be a shame if a growing base was needlessly lost by not trying to help.

[ringmaster]

I don't see evidence that Habari is dying, or that some natural
selection has somehow made it too late for Habari to succeed. Of
course, my own idea of success for Habari has different criteria than
most people's.

If there are particular shortfalls you'd like to highlight that might
engender adoption, this is the right place to discuss those. I don't
know what shortfalls you've discovered yet, so I can't help do
anything about them.

If we need a separate venue for noob questions, and there's a tool we
can use to collect those better than what we have already, I'm anxious
to hear it.

As far as a hoped direction for Habari to continue in, maybe you could
lead the rest of us with some thoughts of your own?

Owen

[Les Henderson]

Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone or imply the worst. I'm just giving voice to my initial reactions as a potential user who would rather see things improve than simply walk away. Clearly you want it to succeed as well, but it helps to define and quantify what you mean by success.

Just by comparison, I belong to a forum of tablet users for a brand that is somewhat obscure. It now has over 2000 members and is very active, after just a year. That's what I envision here, times five. Instead it's 500 with a few posts a month. I'd also expect more than one person defending her honour. Perhaps even an outright flame-fest. Ha.

A few of the things that I felt were roadblocks were:

- a requirement to join a group to ask questions.
- the assumption that I was familiar with setting up and running blogs.Not everyone has run the Wordpress gauntlet.
- a confusing maze within the wiki which somehow made finding themes hard
- the belief that old themes would not work with new version
- the impression that few people currently support theme and plug-in dev.
- the impression that users know what github is
- github entries that give no description of what plug-in does
- no idea who the key people are since they deserve recognition
- links to sites using it appear dormant and unused
- warnings to not add themes since they would soon appear elsewhere but no indication when
- no sense of upfront user community spirit (I'm sure you party working on the back end)

Again, just my impressions. My own site is currently crap so I shouldn't even talk but there are good reasons for that. And yours isn't either. I think it just needs more of a sense of community from the non-dev side of things is all.

[Morgante Pell]

Hi Les,

Thank you for popping in and offering to help.

While the community might occasionally seem quiet, do realize there is a very active team of core developers working to make Habari a top-notch application. Plugins and themes are readily available, and if there's a plugin which you need that doesn't already exist someone will very likely code it for you.

However, it must be said that we do often fail to cater to the needs of entry users. We're working on addressing this in some ways (such as through a plugins directory), but would be happy to hear what other ideas you have.

I must note that I don't envision Habari disappearing in any outcome. The core team actively uses it for many projects and therefore is dedicated to keeping it updated, though we might occasionally neglect other users out there.

Best,

Morgante

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[Owen Winkler]

Our community is oddly troll-resistant. I think they'd rather ignore it
than fight. And it is holiday season, after all. Apparently, I'm the
only one stuck at home, working.

Habari currently falls into a weird niche, where its users need not know
why all the underlying code works, but they're likely to need to roll up
their sleeves a bit and get their hands dirty. As you've noticed,
Habari can be rough for someone who knows nothing about running blogs or
code or HTML, because it fits in that niche. It's most likely that it
remains there because it's difficult for its developers to step back far
enough to realize what they need to explain to the common person
installing it.

That said, it would be lovely to have someone on the front side working
to discover and implement (or pass on to developers for implementation)
what features/services would please common end-users.

A good portion of the issues you've described have to do with our
woefully incomplete addons directory, which is meant to house plugins
and themes. This will supplant the wiki and other listings as the
primary source of addons.

I'm happy to work with someone who is interested in enhancing Habari's
user-facing image, though my time is primarily spent in the coding
trenches, building Habari and using it for paying client work. If you
had some immediate action items that you think we could execute on to
hopefully increase novice user adoption, I'll help as I can, and I'm
sure other people would, too.

Owen

[Les Henderson]

I'll do what I can when time permits. I hope I can set something up that will take on its own momentum since, like you, I have many irons in as many fires. I tried to think up a good name for a forum site domain but apparently your group, the squatters and the Ugandans took all the good ones. Ha.

I settled on habarians.com since the term was used here in the groups over the years and not much elsewhere. I'll let you know when it is set up with categories I think will be helpful to the average user.

As for immediate suggestions I highly recommend that you add a couple items to the top left navigation block of the wiki to include links to Manual, Plugins, Theming, Installation. That alone would have saved me quite some time running around.

[Les Henderson]

Early days yet but I have something online which might give some idea of what I propose might be helpful. If the use of the logo is an issue, let me know. It will take a fair amount of work to get it up to snuff so please be patient.

http://www.habarians.com/mybb/index.php

I'm trying to do it up as a chronology, or road map, of my own experience as a user.

[Michael C. Harris]

Hi Les,

I agree that we lack quality user-focused documentation and that customisation can be difficult for new and less technical users. A complete renovation and refocus of the wiki would likely receive support. Is there a reason you've chosen to start a forum rather than working on the existing wiki? Easier to start with a clean slate perhaps? I'm definitely happy to talk about how we can improve or replace our documentation.

You should also know that we've tried running a separate forum in the past; it was eventually shut down, mostly due to the fact that it's difficult for the people who know stuff to effectively provide support on too many channels. See https://groups.google.com/d/topic/habari-dev/71L-3y5fxyM/discussion.

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IRC: michaeltwofish #habari

[Les Henderson]

Hi Michael,

Apart from not having any idea how to edit the Wiki, I find that forums, despite all their problems, have more of a tendency to generate community spirit and voluntary support. Even when knuckleheads like me don't know the right answer, they are still often willing to help. Many hands make light work.

Sometimes it clicks and other times the forums just sit dormant. I've had failures with them so I know they can be problematic. I don't anticipate burdening the dev team with support issues but it would be nice to have some as members.

As mentioned, I currently belong to a tablet user forum with topics that range from high level rooting code to a discussion of early days in the computer industry called Old Timer's Corner. Lots of laughs and general interest discussions as well as the actual purpose of the site. Somehow it works. http://www.forum.lepanlife.com/index.php

There's not much wrong with the documentation for those that know the process, but I'll try to offer suggestions as I notice things. I'm actually trying to do things in a way that I can note any concerns or roadblocks I have and how I resolved them. Once I've figured it all out, it's too late. I'd be just another person wondering why everyone isn't as smart as me. Ha.

I'll just keep plugging away at it for now and hope for the best. It might just end up as the basis for a manual in the end. Still helpful, just different. The funny thing is I now won't have time for blogging so I don't need Habari.

[Les Henderson]

While I am trying my best to indirectly motivate this group into a state of pride-induced euphoria I would be remiss to not present some of the shortfalls I have encountered thusfar.

Again, I wish no disrespect but I have to note that the more I research this project, the more broken links and dated Habari-related posts I find amongst the blogs of even its core members.

Obscurity seems to be the norm so far. Plugins are not only bereft of any sense of adequate description but most are admittedly outdated with year old promises to update them so that they run on the latest version, which was .6 at that time.

I can see, only from your personal interactions, that the actual program is cutting edge but the marketing and promotion is shite. Seriously, if I can't find current praise or user reviews from the founders themselves then something needs work. I just hope that my efforts can help in some small way.

Meritocracy has its place, but perhaps you occasionally need input from someone who has no vested interest and can speak out without being banned from the dev commune. I sincerely want to help since it is obvious that everyone involved is as genuinely altruistic as I feel I am myself.

Go Team Go.

[chrisjdavis]

Hey Les.

Welcome to the asylum, glad you could make it!

You make a number of good points, some of which we are already aware, some of which we are not. We are diligently working on refactors and redesigns of various components of our project, ranging from the main project website, to the extend/add-ons directory people have already mentioned. I agree with Ringmaster when he said that we are far from dying. Habari is more alive and cutting edge today than it has ever been, we are just finding it difficult to do the work necessary to make it cutting edge and powerful, and also to pimp it as such.

Something people tend to forget is that projects like WordPress did not have dedicated communities of volunteers and great documentation over night. It took years, and quite a bit of money to get to that point. A mass exodus from another blogging platform helped in that regard as well. As someone who was their for the first release of WordPress after the b2 fork, I can attest to that. I was in the trenches, helping to make WP what it is today. We are a young project by most standards and it shows, good and bad.

I love the fact that you are fired up to get in the trenches and lend a hand. We need more people who are willing to get in and get stuff done on the non-code front. We value those types of contributions greatly. I will do my best to try and be present in the forum, but as was mentioned earlier it can be difficult and frustrating to provide support in that type of environment.

[Les Henderson]

Ha. Consider me your pimp then.

As a fellow writer and member of the humble class I don't want to come off sounding like a circus barker or someone trying to make you lot into something you aren't. I just find the untold story rather fascinating as I put the pieces together on my own.

You are all so humble it's like watching a bunch of my fellow Canadians doing an apology circle. "After you" "No, after you." "I'm sorry, you first." "Sorry, did I interrupt your apology?" No one ever moves through the door.

I find it inviting though, just knowing I can help in some small way, and that it will be appreciated just for the effort. Getting out of the asylum might not be as easy as getting in.

I'll keep trying to get booted out with all the insults though. I've noticed that very few of your personal Habari blogs have a search function on them or any index of blog entries or even a sitemap. The only way to delve deeper into them is to use Google which is hardly an advert for the product.

The best site I've seen using it isn't even from one of the devs. The bulk of yours would deter me from using it at all. Please, all of you, take an hour to update to .9 and add some proper navigation. Working on the engine is pointless if your car has no wheels.

[Doug Stewart]

> You are all so humble it's like watching a bunch of my fellow Canadians doing an apology circle. "After you" "No, after you." "I'm sorry, you first." "Sorry, did I interrupt your apology?" No one ever moves through the door.

I've heard this referred to as a "Canadian Stand-off".

-Doug

[Sean T. Evans]

Here's the thing. That humbleness and the lack of marketing are part
of why Habari is as good as it is. No-one working on this project is
in it for any reason other than the fact that they're passionate about
creating great software. Unfortunately, that's one of our weaknesses
as well. We have amazing, amazing coders who don't worry about how
many users we have. They also tend to, when they have some time, make
the code better at the expense of all of the public-facing aspects.
Our strength is our weakness, and it's something we've been aware of
for some time.

We would love to have people who were as passionate about the front
facing aspects of the project take the lead on those things. We'd be
even happier if they were as talented as our coders. That's the very
nature of meritocracy. If you take the lead, we will follow. If you're
not comfortable editing the wiki, feel free to file tickets about
things that need to be updated and replaced. We'll try to get things
up to scratch. One of the things we've held as central on this project
is the idea of "ownership". We want the people in our community to
feel that Habari belongs to all of us and you can take the lead
without waiting for permission. Go for it!

[Les Henderson]

The funny thing is that the more I find out about what it can do, and what you have done, the more impressed I am. Trouble is, for the average user and often everyone, most of the info is hidden or spread out way too thinly. Lack of marketing is not a positive nor a strength. It is a shortfall that can be corrected without any harm to the spirit you have nurtured and wish to preserve.

To even begin to decipher what a lot of plugins are supposed to do I'm actually having to view lines of comment code for clues. Colin Seymour's work and documentation, as an exception so far,  is the ideal role model of what should exist. Kudos to Ben Carpenter as well.

I'm still trying to bring it all together so that I can understand it first, then expand upon it so that even lesser mortals can as well. Currently I feel I'm deciphering the Da Vinci code just to find a basic description.

One thing I've observed and would like to suggest is the following. Meritocracy is great for the core program but I truly feel that each theme and plugin developer should be able to toot their own horn and get full attributed praise for their work. I also feel that no matter how altruistic you want to be, it is only human to appreciate praise as an individual.

Therefore I am highlighting individuals and their work on the forum in the hope that they will take more of a vested interest in keeping their creations current and fully supported. If they wish to share or acknowledge other contributors that I've left out, that just spreads the joy. Having lots of mini-marketers strengthens the brand without detracting from the humility factor that is expected while working on the core engine.

Not sure if that makes any sense but I think it would maintain the good things while removing some of the restrictions that hold you back. People will still do what they do for the same altruistic reasons but won't feel guilty about feeling proud about something they've created that's uniquely theirs.

Right now I suspect everyone worries about getting shunned for taking any personal credit for absolutely anything Habari. I have no need or desire for any personal credit but I have no such qualms about giving it to others who deserve it. They shouldn't feel ashamed for receiving it.

Meritocracy for the Core. Pride for the Plugins. Tributes for the Themes.

[Morgante Pell]

Hi Les,

While I agree that marketing certainly is something we can focus on, I'm not quite sure if I understand your points regarding meritocracy.

Valuing individual contributions is absolutely the *core* of meritocracy. We certainly encourage and facilitate people getting credit where it's due. This translates all the way down to the code and XML for plugins, where multiple authors can be defined. This enables original authors to claim credit while still giving the community credit if/when projects are maintained by the community.

Thus, I'm not entirely sure where the line between meritocracy and pride/tribute lies. Perhaps you could explain where you've sensed this?

I've certainly never felt ashamed for claiming credit on any of the plugins and themes I created, and have been fully supported in having my own home for them at http://lab.morgante.net

Our hope is that the add-on directory will provide a more cohesive method for discovering and recognizing plugins (and their authors). Maybe you'd be interested in contributing feedback to that as we develop it?

Best,

Morgante

[Les Henderson]

I suppose it is just the impression I get to somehow explain why eighty percent of all promotional type posts I find on Habari are from 2007/08.

It's like you all went dark and started plugging away at making it great without anyone outside the PMC circle knowing about it. Well, it's long past time to turn on some lights and properly showcase your great works.

I know how hard it is to organize and maintain continuous and growing public support and interest in something you barely have time to maintain, let alone improve and provide support for on a volunteer basis.

I also realize that you guys and girls are super busy and have regular lives. so I really don't mean to be critical except when I find it super frustrating, like the fact you have no search function or apparent ability to read any past entries on the main site. Where is the navigation to get to something like http://habariproject.org/en/habari-0-3dr-released ? Is the site even run using Habari?

Anyway, I just thought you might need some suggestions on trying to figure out why there are glaring promotional shortfalls while you clearly excel not only in tech but also literary skills. I end up wasting hours reading your great blog articles and forget what I'm supposed to be doing.

My objective is to try to explain my outsider feelings before I get fully swept up in the devotional aura of the Habari culture. Then dare let anyone criticize the elusively seductive beast that hides deep within the bowels of Github.

"I'm not entirely sure where the line between meritocracy and pride/tribute lies."

Neither do I, really. Even though I suggested where a line could be drawn, it was in order to generate some feedback, motivation and ideas for improvement, if anyone but me perceived it as a problem, that is.

Thanks for giving me more to think about, as well as the link to your themes and plugins. I've yet to get to you.

http://www.habarians.com/mybb/Forum-The-Heroes-of-Habari

[Les Henderson]

I'm sure I don't need to keep making my point since you are fully aware of the situation but I just found another post from 2008 at http://readwrite.com/2008/09/28/will_habari_be_the_next_wordpress that has the subheading of

It's Not New, They Just Need Better Marketing!

The Habari Project has been around for a couple of years now, so you may have heard of it before. If not, don't worry - you're not alone.

[Michael Flux]

Hi Les,

I've been following this thread for the last week and thought I'd finally chime in.  It's nice to see new people still showing interest in Habari... When I was  my blog in 2009 I spend many weeks looking at just about every single CMS under the sun.  On one hand I really wanted to use WP just because of how popular it is - however you spin it it's nice using a product around which the whole world revolves.  Then I came upon Habari -- daaamn, what a change!  Stunning clean interface, everything is quick, no distracting crap everywhere etc.  Naturally I was instantly hooked.  Now fast-forward a couple years, and the blog that I used to update daily I haven't even touched in a couple years.  Now I don't in any way mean to come off sounding as if I'm in any way pushing my own laziness onto Habari...  ...but you know that feeling you get when you use something new and shiny? -- you get a new vacuum and all of the sudden you're vacuuming daily, you get a new phone and you're playing with it nonstop etc.  To some extent that was the feeling that completely faded back then when it came to Habari for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habari#Release_history - that really summarizes one of the biggest problems.  I started using Habari at version 0.4 - fast forward 5 years, and we're still not even at 1.0 - but ok ok, perhaps there is still a ton of great features that the core developers didn't feel like it was worth a big version number.  Security fix, security fix, security fix, security fix, security fix.  I mean if I'm a brand new user right now and I look at that, I feel like I just started using Windows XP in the year 2010 where the only future that it has is some security updates every 6 months.  Lets be honest, you look at that and it just screams half-dead/dying project to anyone who isn't a part of the core.

Now, that aside, a couple years ago, as ringmaster may remember (at the time I was using Ink/InkMaster usernames in the IRC channel) I actually really wanted to give Habari a new face - even started making some mockups back then.  http://cl.ly/image/2J2h203l310K  - but then I got a bit bored and unfortunately too many other things came up which forced me to halt all of that.

I really do want Habari to start progressing.  I really, really want it to take off.  Excluding things like SquareSpace, I'm still yet to find any CMS systems for blogs that would be as elegant, all of them just feel disgustingly bloated (looking at WP here).  So for what it's worth Les, I'm a front-end developer/designer and I specialize/love to work with the very simple, easy to navigate, use etc interfaces - really exactly what Habari is trying to come off as.  Both my michaelflux.com website, and the screenshot I linked to above are quite poor representations of my current work as both of those are 3-4 years old.  But while I have a very limited amount of time, I'd love to help you out in any ways I can.

Morydd, "We would love to have people who were as passionate about the front facing aspects of the project take the lead on those things."

Perhaps I'm just that person? - of course if the rest of the community is actually interested in developing the brand and there isn't any silly opposition along the lines of 'If there are more than 500 users, it' too mainstream!" :p

Les, on a separate note, I'm currently living with 8 cats, all 8 which we picked up from the streets ourselves - though only 4 are "ours", rest are fosters which hopefully will be adopted out soon! :)

Michael

[Les Henderson]

See. I knew there were others who felt somewhat the same and could still express their love of Habari, warts and all.

The fact that both Michael and I have run animal rescue groups would be too funny if it wasn't such a sad topic at times. We both must see Habari as something that could use a foster family. Not that anyone is abusing it, but it's like you've had it tied up in the back yard for five years. Time to unleash it and let it go for a run.

Michael, even dated, your site is a sensational example of what would have sold me on Habari since a picture is worth a thousand lines of code. I admittedly have no skills in the design area. My forte is writing, research, organizing and demystifying. I've tried to bring together all the great Habari info that is scattered across many old blogs in the hopes that centralizing will bring SEO relevance to the brand.

I propose that we work together on having you fix up a feature-set example of Habari in action which could showcase other great Habari-run sites along with postings about various plugins and themes. We could even use some of the ACL features to allow anyone interested the ability to contribute. After all, it's supposed to be a key cutting edge feature but I've yet to see it in action anywhere. Be great if we could convince a news chain to adopt it for use.

I'd like to keep in under one roof at habarians.com but that's just because I see the disparity of currently only using another tool (mybb) to promote it. I realize it's a big job but I'm newly energized knowing I have like-minded support. Thanks for the boost.

PS: My wife liked you the moment I mentioned your rescue efforts. That instant trust is something we need to generate with first time visitors to all things Habari.

Les

[Michael Flux]

Somewhat off topic thought, and this is no more than just my personal opinion of course, but I can't but be getting the feeling almost like the word 'habarians' come off sounding a tad on the childish/silly side.  I guess to me at least, a 'central directory' would appear to be a bit more trustworthy and legitimate if it was all revolving around the habariproject.org domain.  I guess what I feel like is that the website at the core of everything needs to improve and be the all encompassing, highly organized and very densely packed source of information - rather than additional 3rd party websites which just feel tacked on at the end of the day. Thoughts?

[Les Henderson]

As for the domain name, sappy for sure, though I found it used exclusively in this group. But even if I had something better like AllThingsHabari it may still not address your concerns, which I appreciate and understand.

Then again, maybe we need more of those millions of people who record every moment of their life to get using Habari. Two separate markets whereby the core site doesn't offend the sensibilities of developers and the masses don't get turned off by the techno-babble.

Since even Apple and Wordpress have lots of fan sites and blogs that offer relevant non-corporate approved content there must be something to the concept.

I'll be the first to admit that I tend to strike while the iron is hot, and then often fizzle out (as in get just as busy as the rest of you). I doubt that I would have devoted the last week to building up the forum if I had had to wait for feedback and consensus approval since even responses here are understandably a tad delayed.

I just think I'll feel more of a responsibility to keep it going if it's under my control and I mentioned earlier on that I'd like to perhaps monetize it at some point. I don't care if it ever pans out financially but if I throw a lot of time at it and can make a buck to eventually cover the cost of hiring a web developer, great. Other projects would instantly make more if I used the same amount of time to work on them.

Habari's success equals my success sort of thing.

I guess there are lines between all out altruism and fiscal sensibility. No one here is giving up their day job to devote their life to this, nor should they be expected to. That may be one of the things holding Habari back.

I'm sure even Michael knows you can't take in every stray if you don't have the ongoing resources and motivation -  though I do have friends with over 20 cats that manage it, albeit with difficulty and the continuous heartache and expense of illness and death. We stopped at five cats and three dogs.

You know, I feel bad even saying all this. I feel like a traitor even though greed is not my motivation. Hope for the success and recognition of everyone involved is. I think that's what I sensed has been happening here.

[Les Henderson]

Never heard of this open source project before, but I like the way they present and promote themselves. I see a lot of similarities in what Habari could be. Visit the site and just change Piwik into Habari.

http://piwik.org/the-piwik-team/