Forums Shutdown?

[Chris Meller]

I know this has always been a heated topic, but I glanced at the forums (http://habariproject.org/forums in case you didn't know) and was dismayed by the number of questions with simple answers that were never acknowledged simply because no one regularly looks at the forums.

I don't think the right answer is to try and force someone to regularly check them or become a forums czar, so I'd like to once again propose shutting them down and directing people to the habari-dev Google groups page, which really offers exactly the same functionality as the forums (a web-based interface) and has a much wider audience.

[Iñaki Lopez]

Chris, if this helps, just to mention that this is the first time I hear about the forums..

[Andy C]

Habari is a small (but perfectly formed) community.

By extrapolation, why not merge -dev and -users as most forums posts
tend to be from the latter ?

[Chris Meller]

I think -dev and -users both serve distinct purposes. Owen's post about the plugin API change is a good example: -users don't care, they just use the plugin.

I think the forums overlap both -dev and -users and are neglected (not just attention wise but also maintenance and potential security patches, etc.) and fail to serve a distinct purpose.

But my real point was the lack of attention and response. If we say we're going to alienate 5% of our users by eliminating forums (the real number would be significantly less) then I would rather provide exceptional service and support to 95% of our users than poor support to 100%.

> --
> To post to this group, send email to habar...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to habari-dev-...@googlegroups.com
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[Michael C. Harris]

On 3 November 2010 08:59, Chris Meller <ch...@doesnthaveone.com> wrote:
> I know this has always been a heated topic, but I glanced at the forums (http://habariproject.org/forums in case you didn't know) and was dismayed by the number of questions with simple answers that were never acknowledged simply because no one regularly looks at the forums.
>
> I don't think the right answer is to try and force someone to regularly check them or become a forums czar, so I'd like to once again propose shutting them down and directing people to the habari-dev Google groups page, which really offers exactly the same functionality as the forums (a web-based interface) and has a much wider audience.

I agree, I don't think the extra overhead of running separate forums
is justified by their fairly minimal usage and potential to splinter
discussion. The GG interface may not be perfect, but it's good enough
for now.

--
Michael C. Harris, School of CS&IT, RMIT University
http://twofishcreative.com/michael/blog
IRC: michaeltwofish #habari

[Owen Winkler]

On 11/2/2010 6:35 PM, Michael C. Harris wrote:
> On 3 November 2010 08:59, Chris Meller<ch...@doesnthaveone.com> wrote:
>> I know this has always been a heated topic, but I glanced at the forums (http://habariproject.org/forums in case you didn't know) and was dismayed by the number of questions with simple answers that were never acknowledged simply because no one regularly looks at the forums.
>>
>> I don't think the right answer is to try and force someone to regularly check them or become a forums czar, so I'd like to once again propose shutting them down and directing people to the habari-dev Google groups page, which really offers exactly the same functionality as the forums (a web-based interface) and has a much wider audience.
>
> I agree, I don't think the extra overhead of running separate forums
> is justified by their fairly minimal usage and potential to splinter
> discussion. The GG interface may not be perfect, but it's good enough
> for now.
>

+1

Owen

[Randy Walker]

I prefer forums to a mailing list, usually. The Habari Forums have had sort of a circular problem:

1) People would use them more if they didn't have to set up a separate account from trac/wiki.

2) Nobody uses the forums so why bother set up login integration?

Also, the software powering the forums itself was an issue. I don't recall any of the people who were initially for the forums being in favor of Vanilla--it just got thrown up (heh?) as a stop-gap measure. This is also partly the reason why there is no login integration.

I am +1 for migrating from the current forum solution but -1 for eliminating the forums altogether.

If we had integrated login, that'd be one hurdle leapt.

~Randy

P.S. Also, Google Groups is doing away with Welcome Messages, Pages, and Files soon.

[Chris Meller]

Can you illustrate the reasons you find a separately-maintained forum in any way superior to using the Google groups web interface? To me it is identical: read previous messages in a given thread and post responses or start a new thread.

[Randy Walker]

I find that most mailing lists have web interfaces as an afterthought. Forums are usually have better features for categorizing/organizing new topics and for navigating existing topics.

[rick c]

I find it interesting that this thread has generated the most interest
in the shortest period of time of anything that's been posted lately.
I also find it interesting that it was started on -dev, rather than on
the forums or in -users.

That said, I don't think the problem is the lack of login integration.
Those of us who have even a smattering of interest in the forums have
created logins there. If someone doesn't create a login because it's
separate, that's sad.

Rather, from what I remember, the intent was for the forums to be for
user to user help. If that isn't happening, whether because enough
informed users aren't using them or for some other reason, I'd say
there's no need for them at this time. I'd rather than have them at
all than have them neglected.

Rick

>  smime.p7s
> 5KViewDownload

[Chris Meller]

Have you tried the Google Groups search function? It's a change in mindset, but that's Google's strength. I think it more than makes up for the categorization, which is confusing on the forums anyway. The distinction between 'Troubleshooting' and 'Support' categories, for instance. Or is my problem with some code a result of a bug ('Development') or just me doing something wrong ('Troubleshooting')?

And my main point is still the lack of attention. On the first page I see 7 posts with no responses (out of 30). That's not the kind of support I think any of us wants to provide. If someone can give me a meaningful way we can address that, whether it meets the actual features desired for a forum or not, I'll consider the matter settled.

[rick c]

Obviously, that should have been

I'd rather not have them at all than have them neglected.

Rick

[Andy C]

I find the the Google Groups interface awful. Simply awful. The only
decent thing in its favour is the search capability.

I find the forums much more friendly and welcoming. I would rather
forums replaced -users to be honest.

However, the problem isn't forums or mailing lists of Web based
interfaces.

The Habari forums are hardly used, it's almost a self fulfilling
recursive prophecy - the people best placed to energise the forums
don't like them so they don't use them and that's entirely their
choice.

The forums engender much ore of a sense of community IMHO. Profiles,
avatars etc. That is valuable.

I don't mind the Vanilla software - it had some glitches but Randy
seemed to address most of those by configuring or adding plugins.

>  smime.p7s
> 5KViewDownload

[dvector]

Just my two pennies worth as a user, the habariproject.org/forums is
to me the more natural place "as a user" to go and ask questions and
get answers from other users, however if a developer pops in from time
to time even better. Users have an inbuilt desire to help others and
I'm pretty sure the forum will grow as habari grows

Habari-dev Google group I don't believe is as accessible to the
common user / future users. For my part I plan to spend more time at
the forums answering questions

[Nitin]

I believe merging -dev and -users would mean that the mailing list
subscribers don't get to have a choice of filtering out the user-
related posts so they either get both developer and user mail, or none
at all - and I think we might alienate some of the folk here by doing
that to actually pick "none at all."

It's just a thought, but as we say in the Habari community - let the
community decide!

PS: Is your concern is about a lack of responses to posts on -users?

[Nitin]

I would have had the same thing to say as you do, had it not been for
a Google search yesterday. I stumbled upon the Habari forums, and
shortly after, on to the discussion on the IRC channel on "To Forum Or
Not To Forum" (ignore the grammar... that captures the essence of it
anyway). I think we need to get the Habari website to inform users
(and devs) that we do have a forum.

As a user, if I had a problem, I wouldn't join a mailing list, but
Google Groups is much more than just a mailing list - if we've got an
open group, users can post a one-time question to the group without
getting all of the posts to a mailbox. The disadvantage, is that there
doesn't seem to be a way to get email notifications of a reply to that
thread.

Based on that, I'd say: -1... we keep the forums. My thoughts are the
same as Randy's on this one.

I think we ought to have the forums as another way to reach out to
users, but I don't have anything to say about the software powering
the forum except that it ought to support email notifications (I
haven't used the existing forum, so I can't tell if this is a feature
in Vanilla).

PS: Google Groups doesn't have a good group home page, but the
threaded view matches that of GMail and has that familiar look. If
there's one thing that would make me vote against the web interface,
it would be the group home page.

On Nov 3, 2:08 am, Iñaki Lopez <inaki.lo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris, if this helps, just to mention that this is the first time I hear
> about the forums..
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Chris Meller <ch...@doesnthaveone.com>wrote:
>
> > I know this has always been a heated topic, but I glanced at the forums (

> >http://habariproject.org/forumsin case you didn't know) and was dismayed

[Nitin]

Rick,

You got me on that last paragraph where you mention that the forums
are for user-to-user support, and we don't have a lot many users right
now.

It got me thinking about changing my vote, but I'd think the real
problem is we don't have enough users yet and we're more of a
development community so we ought to work toward getting users to try
Habari, and a forum is a great way to let users know that there's a
place they can go to have their problems resolved.

[Nitin]

I guess the lack of attention is something we ought to address
differently. When on the IRC channel, I perform an SVN update whenever
I see a JibbyBot notification. Perhaps a notification for a new forum
thread would attract the same attention?

Just my 2 cents worth. Power to the community!

On Nov 3, 6:18 am, Chris Meller <ch...@doesnthaveone.com> wrote:
> Have you tried the Google Groups search function? It's a change in mindset, but that's Google's strength. I think it more than makes up for the categorization, which is confusing on the forums anyway. The distinction between 'Troubleshooting' and 'Support' categories, for instance. Or is my problem with some code a result of a bug ('Development') or just me doing something wrong ('Troubleshooting')?
>
> And my main point is still the lack of attention. On the first page I see 7 posts with no responses (out of 30). That's not the kind of support I think any of us wants to provide. If someone can give me a meaningful way we can address that, whether it meets the actual features desired for a forum or not, I'll consider the matter settled.
>
> On Nov 2, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Randy Walker wrote:
>
> > I find that most mailing lists have web interfaces as an afterthought. Forums are usually have better features for categorizing/organizing new topics and for navigating existing topics.
>
> > On Nov 2, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Chris Meller wrote:
>
> >> Can you illustrate the reasons you find a separately-maintained forum in any way superior to using the Google groups web interface? To me it is identical: read previous messages in a given thread and post responses or start a new thread.
>
> >> On Nov 2, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Randy Walker wrote:
>
> >>> I prefer forums to a mailing list, usually. The Habari Forums have had sort of a circular problem:
>
> >>> 1) People would use them more if they didn't have to set up a separate account from trac/wiki.
>
> >>> 2) Nobody uses the forums so why bother set up login integration?
>
> >>> Also, the software powering the forums itself was an issue. I don't recall any of the people who were initially for the forums being in favor of Vanilla--it just got thrown up (heh?) as a stop-gap measure. This is also partly the reason why there is no login integration.
>
> >>> I am +1 for migrating from the current forum solution but -1 for eliminating the forums altogether.
>
> >>> If we had integrated login, that'd be one hurdle leapt.
>
> >>> ~Randy
>
> >>> P.S. Also, Google Groups is doing away with Welcome Messages, Pages, and Files soon.
>
> >>> --
> >>> To post to this group, send email to habar...@googlegroups.com
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to habari-dev-...@googlegroups.com

> >>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev

>
> > --
> > To post to this group, send email to habar...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to habari-dev-...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev
>
>
>

>  smime.p7s
> 5KViewDownload

[Chris Meller]

I asked somewhere else in this thread, but can *anyone* explain to me why Google Groups is so supposedly inferior to a forum? Threaded discussions with a great search feature. You browse existing discussions and post new ones. How is that different?

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to understand. Just because they call it a "group" instead of a "forum" doesn't mean it's any different... At least I see very little different.

[Caius Durling]

On 2 Nov 2010, at 21:59, Chris Meller wrote:

> I'd like to once again propose shutting them down and directing people to the habari-dev Google groups page

I've never liked them, mostly because as Chris says, GG web UI is usable enough to replace them, and the people that prefer email get a good email interface to them, unlike most forum software. The only thing I can see which will end this argument is software that has a decent forum frontend with email integration to the ease of use of a mailing list.

Until we find/write/use such software, +1

On 2 Nov 2010, at 22:14, Andy C wrote:

> By extrapolation, why not merge -dev and -users as most forums posts
> tend to be from the latter ?

They are separate things, and has been mentioned elsewhere, being able to subscribe to one but not the other is useful.

-1

C
---
Caius Durling
ca...@caius.name
+44 (0) 7960 268 100
http://caius.name/

[Rich Bowen]

On Nov 2, 2010, at 10:20 PM, rick c wrote:

> Obviously, that should have been
>
> I'd rather not have them at all than have them neglected.

+1

When the forum was initially set up, I said "I'll never remember to
look at it, so let's do it only if there are folks who will remember
to look at it." or words to that effect. If we have a place where
people are posting questions, and those questions are being ignored,
that is actively damaging the users, and actively damaging the
reputation of the project.

If I install SoftwareQ, have a problem, ask a question, and am
ignored, I uninstall it and move on to SoftwareN. Every time. Nobody
has time to be ignored.

--Rich

--
Rich Bowen
rbo...@rcbowen.com

[Rich Bowen]

On Nov 3, 2010, at 7:40 AM, dvector wrote:

> Just my two pennies worth as a user, the habariproject.org/forums is
> to me the more natural place "as a user" to go and ask questions and
> get answers from other users, however if a developer pops in from time
> to time even better. Users have an inbuilt desire to help others and
> I'm pretty sure the forum will grow as habari grows

On the contrary, if posts to the forum are ignored, then the community
will not grow.

To be blunt, either we need folks to step up and answer the questions
there - all of them - or the forum should be discontinued. Either one
of these is an acceptable outcome to me. Ignored questions are NOT
acceptable.

--
Rich Bowen
rbo...@rcbowen.com

[Andy C]

I think some of the clever developer types are being a little
disingenuous here.

I don't remember to check the forums every N days because I am lazy.

I subscribe to a feed of updates. If I can answer a question, I will
attempt to do so.

You're seriously not telling me there isn't software out there to
generate forums -> RSS feed -> email.

Better just to say - I'm not interested in forums with questions from
new Habari users but will read -dev.

[Rich Bowen]

On Nov 11, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Andy C wrote:

> You're seriously not telling me there isn't software out there to
> generate forums -> RSS feed -> email.

It's all very well to say that SoftwareX exists, but until someone
installs and configures it, it doesn't exist in any meaningful sense.

--
Rich Bowen
rbo...@rcbowen.com

[Andy C]

Not on the server. On an individual basis.

[Owen Winkler]

On 11/11/2010 11:13 AM, Andy C wrote:
>
> Better just to say - I'm not interested in forums with questions from
> new Habari users but will read -dev.

This sentiment needs to be quashed before it gets started.

There are plenty of developers subscribed to the -users mailing list who
frequently reply to new users that have questions. To suggest that
developers here are uninterested in helping new users is not only
untrue, it makes me angry.

The suggestion to retire the forums is one focused on improving
developer response to user support and decreasing project maintenance costs.

The forums were an experiment. This is how successful communities work:
You give them the resources they need to grow, and you trim the
resources that don't work or aren't used.

If anyone could provide a valid reason to keep the stale, abandoned
forum in addition to the active, useful Google Group, maybe there would
be an excuse to keep both. But I have heard none.

The forum is currently a blight on Habari's reputation, and a drain of
resources for both maintenance and message threads like these.

This is a call to a formal vote to shut down the forum. +3 sum votes
carries. A +1 vote is to retire the forums. A -1 vote is to keep the
forums. Votes will be tallied at 12:00 GMT on 11/13, and resultant
action taken pursuant to the result of the vote. Even if you've
expressed your opinion before, please re-vote +1/-1 on this thread to be
counted.

My vote is +1, retire the forums. Redirect the forum page to the Google
Groups page for the mailing list.

Owen

[Scott Merrill]

+1 retire the forums, absent a volunteer to take ownership of forum maintenance.

[Colin]

+1 to retire the forums.

> --
> To post to this group, send email to habar...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> habari-dev-...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/habari-dev

--
Colin Seymour
Blog: http://colinseymour.co.uk
Tech Stuff: http://lildude.co.uk
Barefoot Running: http://barefootrunner.co.uk
IRC: lildude #habari

[Matthias Bauer]

+1. Retire the forums.

[Ryan Mullins]

On Nov 11, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Owen Winkler wrote:

> My vote is +1, retire the forums. Redirect the forum page to the Google Groups page for the mailing list.

+1 retire forums.

[Sean T. Evans]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done enough to keep up with
the forums. However, it bothers me quite a bit that "good enough" is
considered acceptable in this (and seemingly only this) aspect of this
project. Additionally, one of the reasons that was brought in favor of
self-hosting as opposed to keeping the project in Google Code was that
there are people who are wary of Google and would rather not have
accounts with them. But most of all I, like Andy C, find it
disingenuous for people who are writing a web publishing engine and,
in all likelihood visit dozens of websites every day and subscribe to
RSS feeds for more, to use the argument "I won't remember to check the
forums."
It also bothers me that the response to the problems with the forum is
to shut them down rather than actually discuss how to solve the
problems with them. I think, for people seeking a forum, a direction
to go to a mailing list is nearly as offputting as a forum with a poor
response rate.

As to how GG is different than a forum, it's quite simple. Load them
side by side and put yourself into the perspective of a new user.
Particularly one who isn't just a new Habari user, but a new bog user.
One says "9 of 3916 messages". Holy crap, where do you start? It's
intimidating. Yes it's a familiar interface (sort of) if you're a user
of Gmail or Reader, but what if you're not?

Yes, a neglected forum is probably as bad or worse than none at all,
but that's a false dichotomy. We have another option. We can _fix_ the
forum.

-1 on closing the forum.

[Sean T. Evans]

-1
Fix the forum, don't close it.

[Chris Meller]

On Nov 11, 2010, at 11:15 PM, Sean T. Evans wrote:

> I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done enough to keep up with
> the forums. However, it bothers me quite a bit that "good enough" is
> considered acceptable in this (and seemingly only this) aspect of this
> project. Additionally, one of the reasons that was brought in favor of
> self-hosting as opposed to keeping the project in Google Code was that
> there are people who are wary of Google and would rather not have
> accounts with them. But most of all I, like Andy C, find it
> disingenuous for people who are writing a web publishing engine and,
> in all likelihood visit dozens of websites every day and subscribe to
> RSS feeds for more, to use the argument "I won't remember to check the
> forums."

More not forcing people to devote time to checking something they have no interest in checking. From my very first message: "I don't think the right answer is to try and force someone to regularly check them or become a forums czar".

> It also bothers me that the response to the problems with the forum is
> to shut them down rather than actually discuss how to solve the
> problems with them.

Absolutely untrue. This is not the first time the problem has been discussed and I think we'd all be more than happy to continue supporting them if there were a reason and we could find a way to offer quality service through them. The whole point is that we haven't found that way.

<snip>

> Yes, a neglected forum is probably as bad or worse than none at all,
> but that's a false dichotomy. We have another option. We can _fix_ the
> forum.

How? You want to fix the forums, that's great. How do you propose doing that, other than forcing developers who don't want to use the forums (for whatever reason, it doesn't matter) to check them? Are you volunteering to hang out there and make them useful? No offense, but I haven't seen you chime in on any of the posts asking questions yet...

The number of very negative responses to the idea of shutting down the forums in this thread is quite distressing to me. I'm all for passionate people, but the idea that anyone who wants the forums to go away hates users... What the hell is up with that? This isn't a US election.

[Chris Meller]

+1, kill them.

[Michael C. Harris]

People are involved in open source projects according to their
interests and available time. Clearly, there haven't been enough
people with the time and interest to adequately maintain the forums.
There's no point anyone getting annoyed about this. You can influence
other people, but you can only change your own behaviour. If you feel
strongly about the forums, make them work.

If it was me, this is what I'd do.

* Regularly check the forums, and encourage others to do so, in a positive way.
* When there's a question, find the information on the wiki, and point
the questioner to it.
* If there's nothing on the wiki, try to get people who are likely to
be able to answer the question to document it on the wiki.
* If you can't get people to write the appropriate documentation, try
to get them to answer the specific question on the forum. Extract
stuff from their answer and put it on the wiki, if appropriate.
* If you can't get people to answer the question on the forums, try to
get them to tell you the answer in some other way, for example on IRC,
and post the answer on the forums yourself. Extract stuff from their
answer and put it on the wiki, if appropriate.

Putting links to specific questions in front of the people who might
be able to answer them might be a way to encourage participation on
the forums.

You might think different tactics could work to reinvigorate the
forums, but telling other people what they should do is guaranteed not
to work.

cheers, Michael

--
Michael C. Harris, School of CS&IT, RMIT University
http://twofishcreative.com/michael/blog
IRC: michaeltwofish #habari

[Amanda Moore]

I use to check the forums pretty regularly but with the lack of posts I stopped. Mostly because the same questions posted in the forum were being posted to the google group as well. If help is needed with maintenance or house cleaning I'm more than happy to devote some time as needed.

---
Amanda M.
mand...@gmail.com
www.manda-moore.com

[ringmaster]

On Nov 11, 12:19 pm, Owen Winkler <epit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is a call to a formal vote to shut down the forum.  +3 sum votes
> carries.  A +1 vote is to retire the forums.  A -1 vote is to keep the
> forums.  Votes will be tallied at 12:00 GMT on 11/13, and resultant
> action taken pursuant to the result of the vote.  Even if you've
> expressed your opinion before, please re-vote +1/-1 on this thread to be
> counted.

Vote passed by a margin of +3. The forum page is now redirected to
the habari-users Google Group.

Owen

[Matt Read]

On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 10:54 AM, ringmaster <epi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vote passed by a margin of +3.  The forum page is now redirected to
> the habari-users Google Group.

interesting that this vote only took place in -dev and not -users.

But I'm not complaining, I don't want to maintain the forums.

[Owen Winkler]

There was a forum message posted referencing this thread.

Owen

[Rich Bowen]

Well, yeah, but nobody reads the forums.

Oh ... yeah.

--
Rich Bowen
rbo...@rcbowen.com

[Chris Meller]

Also, it's a formal vote, which means only PMC votes count (we already had a thread with public opinions), so posting to -users would seem unimportant.

On Nov 16, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Owen Winkler wrote: