Email from openstreetmaps

[Gabriel]

Hello,
i just got this email:

So you're copying information from OpenStreetMap into Google Map
Maker?

OpenStreetMap releases its data with an open content license which is
designed to make the data free and easy to re-use. The data is
collectively owned by the contributors and distributed with full open
access to the underlying data. This project is overseen by the not-
for-
profit OpenStreetMap foundation. (It's a great project. You might want
to think about contributing to it)

Now for the bad news...

The openstreetmap license does not allow people to distribute the data
under more restrictive licensing terms (google's licensing terms for
example) Now I'm sure you haven't been doing this on a large scale,
but just so you know, copying information into Google Map Maker from
OpenStreetMap is probably* a breach of their licensing terms and is
something quite a few OpenStreetMap contributors would disapprove of.
Please refrain from doing this.

[* I am not a lawyer]






Since when a road name is copyrighted?
and also GMM= Greek, OSM=English


Thanks,
Gabriel

[kezzyhomeros]

What shall I do against OpenStreetMap.org then? One of their users
have stolen my content from Wikimapia.org :) This is World Wide Web,
unfortunately you cannot prove everything.

[Harry Wood]

My email was in response to this old discussion
http://groups.google.com/group/google-mapmaker/browse_thread/thread/457280bf982eb7ea/bb2771d4213f1225
...in which you seem to imply that you have been copying "roads and
areas" from openstreetmap and other sources.

> Since when a road name is copyrighted?

So you are copying road names from any source you fancy in fact??

I would point you to a help page here explaining that this is not
allowed... but I can't actually find such a help page. Copyright
issues (and disclaiming all responsibility) feature heavily in
google's terms of service: http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/terms_mapmaker.html
But it surprises me that google appears to have made very little
effort to inform users about issues surrounding the sourcing of the
map information from other websites.

I wonder... does google share your belief that road names are not
copyrighted? ...or maybe they think that with crowd sourcing
indirection, and with their corporate might, it's fine for them to
ignore map copyrights of any data providers operating in these
countries. Steal their data whilst trampling all over them.

> and also GMM= Greek, OSM=English

Well actually both sites support gathering of name data in both
languages. So you're not copying road names then? That's fine. As long
as we're clear :-)

[Armen]

Hi Harry,

First of all congratulations to your team (you included I assume) for
such a huge and capable mapping platform. This thread was the first
place I heard of OpenStretMap project. I checked it out and it's an
impressive project. Reading the above posts I have some questions. But
before that I need to say what you say *in general* is correct. I say
in general because there are a lot of nuances involved which can not
be clarified easily (if at all). But to tell the truth I don't approve
of your approach on this issue and specially your reply (email was
very polite) and I'm sure I'm not alone on this. You know very well
that there are contributors to your project which do something
similar, drawing maps using other maps/data as source. Do you write
them personal emails too?

>> Since when a road name is copyrighted?

> So you are copying road names from any source you fancy in fact??

- Let me give you an example, I'm sure others can find dozens more in
their area. Here is a link on openstreetmap. I'm strongly suspicious
it is NOT generated by gps tracks, it's been imported from a file or
was created by consulting other maps (files/data). Have you been this
critical about your maps too? The link I'm sending is an area that I
live, so I know it very well, so if it's been submitted by a user I'd
love to meet him/her in person to see how they've come with such an
accurate drawing (to the level of building walls) without consulting
anything else, if it's a file of any sort I'd love to know where you
got it from? Because as far as I know all the vector maps of our area
is copyrighted (if not stated I assume them to be copyrighted). If
it's been submitted for free it's most probably a violation of
copyright on submitting party's side and you know it very well (as you
explain to and remind others about the concept). I'm sure others can
find similar areas in their countries. So maybe after all it's better
to be a little tolerable. Sometimes some tolerance results in more
order and is eventually better for the whole.

http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=40.20011&lon=44.49054&zoom=17&layers=B000FTF

And thanks for all the work that has been done on Yerevan map it looks
cool!
Armen

[kel...@gmail.com]

Hi Armen

The map you give a link to does not appear to have broken copyright in
its making, but I think you are correct to say it was not made using a
GPS receiver.
Creating tracks using a gps then converting those tracks into roads is
not the only way to map in OSM.

Many organisations are making their mapping data available to OSM,
some people have access to out-of-copyright maps, some people have
access to professional grade GPS kit, all of which can lead to very
accurate maps.

Also, Yahoo has made their "satellite" imagery available to OSM for
mapping purposes, amd I am very confident this is how the area you
link to has been mapped. If you click on the Edit Tab on the page you
link to (after creating an account) you will be able to edit the map
using the Yahoo Satellite Imagery. Its very clear this area has good
imagery available and has been traced over.

Yahoo's "satellite" imagery is very bad compared to Google's. Its a
real shame that while many companies across our planet our going out
of their way to make available mapping data for the OSM project,
Google cant/wont give access to their satellite imagery. OSM is
providing a people across our planet with a source of mapping "with an

open content license which is designed to make the data free and easy
to re-use".

I can understand the reasons for contributing to Google Map Maker, you
the user, gets free access to better maps of your area. OSM will take
a long time to catch up with google maps and probably will never have
access to high quality satellite imagery. (And on google you dont have
to worry about footpaths being labelled cylclepaths by the cyclists
that seem to dominate OSM!), But if I am going to give up a bit of
time to help create a map of my area, I'm going to do it for a project
that intends to make ALL the underlying data available for free and
easy to re-use, and wont sell my work for a profit!

Since you know the area in the map you linked to, maybe you could
create an account on OSM and improve it using the Satellite Imagery?

Cheers
Jason

[Lior Ron]

Hi Harry, 

we're definitely not encouraging anyone to ignore maps copyrights, on the contrary. If you read our terms of service you'll clearly see the usage guidelines strongly discourage that  http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/terms_mapmaker.html

but to make it more visible, we added this to our posting guidelines http://groups.google.com/group/google-mapmaker/web/suggested-posting-guidelines?_done=/group/google-mapmaker%3F and would like to echo other comments made before - map makers: please use your local knowledge while mapping and not external maps.

Lior. 

[Harry Wood]

Armen

> You know very well that there are contributors to your project which do something
> similar, drawing maps using other maps/data as source. Do you write
> them personal emails too?

Yes actually. If I see a clear cut case of a user copying information
into OpenStreetMap from copyrighted source I will write them message
asking them not to. Others are encouraged to do the same: http://bit.ly/osmcopyvio
As Jason has explained, the example you found is probably not a
copyright violation in fact. But on OpenStreetMap we also publish a
great deal of help information explaining what is allowed and what is
not allowed when sourcing information.

On May 29, 2:30 am, Lior Ron <lior.mapma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> we added this to our posting guidelineshttp://groups.google.com/group/google-mapmaker/web/suggested-posting-...

Yes. That's the kind of information I would expect to find in the
google map maker help pages:
http://sites.google.com/site/mapmakeruserhelp/home
...or even linked from the map maker interface itself. I'm amazed that
the google map maker site doesn't make this information more prominent
(and that it's only just been written) Of course users will copy from
other maps if the only information you provide about copyright is to
say "it's your responsibility" within the T&Cs.

[Armen]

Hi Jason!

Thanks for your kind reply and invitation! :) I created an account and
had a quick look around. OSM has "splitting roads" feature!!! :)

And you are right about satellite imagery, when one creates an account
and logs in then they have access to sat images too. If I knew this I
would try to come up with a better example ;) but actually much for
the better that I didn't. But you know what I'm talking about, being
*too* strict (down to street names entered by an individual!) will
harm everyone eventually.

And it's a damn cool project you are doing!
All the best,
Armen

[AM909]

From a practical standpoint: Copyrighted maps (and other works) are
known to contain security features - intentional, unimportant, errors
that are specifically designed to trap copiers. If the combination of
errors appears in another work, it's obvious where it came from. It's
not clear whether out-of-copyright sources, like UN or USGS maps,
contain similar features. So, regardless of whether you believe in
copyrights or not, don't directly copy things in bulk. Someone will
probably catch it eventually.

From another standpoint: I liken the issue to that of plagiarism in
school. Particularly in earlier years, any writing a student does will
technically be a reproduction of some other, likely copyrighted, work
(s). In later years, they teach you to use your own language, multiple
sources, reconcile the differences, cite those sources in footnotes/
endnotes/bibs, and add some original thought, if appropriate, to come
up with something that is more than a sum of the original parts
(sources) that were used. It also helps catch those pesky copyright-
security features above, since you will never see them in more than
one source (unless, of course, the second source plagiarized the
original :) ). Having said all that, there is obviously a huge gray
area between the black and the white. You will find the subject to be
written about (perhaps ad-nauseum) in standard practices for any
educational institution, organization, or company.

As a practical matter, most people have little actual place knowledge.
We work and live within reasonable proximity, and don't travel too
much***. Until and unless there is a huge swell of support for map-
making endeavors like MM and OSM, to where people in every city/town/
village/jungle can somehow be brought to contribute their knowledge,
we that are dedicated to a somewhat-complete, usable, and accurate
result must use (multiple) outside references.

Most of us don't want to be copyright lawyers^^^. We just want to make
maps of our world to help ourselves and, hopefully, the world in the
process.


ObEndNotes:

*** I, OTOH, traveled a lot in my work life, and so can contribute
more directly, but still not without reference material.

^^^ I am not a lawyer either.

[AM909]

I seem to have left off the following:

Based on all this, I believe that, if you look up the name of a street
in two independent sources, find a news reference or website for a
business located on the street, etc., it's fair to edit that street
and name it, both in MM and in OSM. Copyrights are meant to protect
outright copying of a significant work, not the sharing of knowledge,
particularly about things as public as placenames.