[AUDIT] Enable Django Quick Start / Database Evolution Support
lazaridis_com
system:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Persist
At this point, Django's persistency layer seems intresting, but the
evaluation uncovered a few weaknesses, most importantly the lack of
schema evolution support:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation
Overview of resulting simplification issues:
* Replace command "django-admin.py" by "django-admin" or "django"
* Replace command "manage.py" by "django"
* Enable sqlite3 database / filename by default
* Externalize database settings (e.g. dbdefault.py)
* Enable Admin application by default
* Create a superuser by default (e.g. user:admin / pass:django)
* Rename "startapp" to "createapp"
* Provide basic Database Evolution (e.g. add field)
Solving those Issues would allow to produce a Django-Quick-Start which
could be taken within 5 minutes (+ Installation Effort), which would
allow intrested parties to come quickly in contact with Django.
I would be intrested to creat a skeleton for the "Database Schema
Evolution" (I have implemente a very simply one for a Ruby ORM).
To do so, I would need some feedback from the developers list.
Can I rely on this?
-
You can find more information about the overall project here:
http://lazaridis.com/pj/index.html
.
Joseph Kocherhans
>
> At this point, Django's persistency layer seems intresting, but the
> evaluation uncovered a few weaknesses, most importantly the lack of
> schema evolution support:
>
> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation
Schema evolution support has already been discussed at length. See:
http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/SchemaEvolution but it's not
implemented yet.
You also may want to add SqlAlchemy to your list. It's pretty cool,
although in the early stages of development. There's a Google Summer
of Code project just starting to add schema evolution support to
SqlAlchemy as well.
> Overview of resulting simplification issues:
>
> * Replace command "django-admin.py" by "django-admin" or "django"
> * Replace command "manage.py" by "django"
These are kind of appealing to me, but my inner skeptic just screams
"name churn". Adrian Holovaty is the final word on things like this
though.
> * Enable sqlite3 database / filename by default
I personally wouldn't want this. Where do you propose putting the
database file? I *always* use absolute paths for sqlite db's. If you
use relative paths, it's relative to your current directory, not
relative to the location of the settings file. This could get really
confusing for newbies if they execute manage.py from a different
working directory.
> * Externalize database settings (e.g. dbdefault.py)
You can do this already... that's the beauty of using python for
settings. Just import * or whatever from the appropritate module in
your main settings file.
> * Enable Admin application by default
This has been discussed and dismissed serveral times already.
> * Create a superuser by default (e.g. user:admin / pass:django)
-1. The slight convenience doesn't make up for the security implications IMO.
> * Rename "startapp" to "createapp"
Once again, name churn.
> Solving those Issues would allow to produce a Django-Quick-Start which
> could be taken within 5 minutes (+ Installation Effort), which would
> allow intrested parties to come quickly in contact with Django.
You could provide your own project skeleton that would take care of
all of this. There's no real need to change Django to accomplish any
of the items above. I'd argue that splitting out the database config
makes things *more* complicated. Part of the beauty of django is that
it doesn't (in the paraphrased words of someone else, I forget who)
"shit all over your filesystem like rails"
> I would be intrested to creat a skeleton for the "Database Schema
> Evolution" (I have implemente a very simply one for a Ruby ORM).
See the link above.
> To do so, I would need some feedback from the developers list.
>
> Can I rely on this?
People are generally pretty helpful, but skeptical here. You generally
need code and use cases to back up your ideas. Like any open source
project though, we all work for free, so no promises.
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up. Everyone here
pretty much has the current way things work engrained in our brains at
this point and it's nice to see other perspectives. Your quick start
looks promising. I hope you keep working on it.
Joseph
Jacob Kaplan-Moss
> At this point, Django's persistency layer seems intresting, but the
> evaluation uncovered a few weaknesses, most importantly the lack of
> schema evolution support:
This is actually one of the accepted Summer of Code projects for
Django, so the best answer is perhaps to way until the end of the
summer to see what happens with it.
Jacob
Kenneth Gonsalves
> Schema evolution support has already been discussed at length.
> See: http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/SchemaEvolution but it's
> not implemented yet.
there is a django soc project for this
--
regards
kg
http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
ಇಂಡ್ಲಿನಕ್ಸ வாழ்க!
Derek Anderson
Eugene Lazutkin
>
>> schema evolution support:
>
> This is actually one of the accepted Summer of Code projects for
> Django, so the best answer is perhaps to way until the end of the
> summer to see what happens with it.
...or he can discuss it with Derek Anderson (the student) and Kenneth
Gonsalves (the mentor) to make sure that Derek doesn't miss anything
important. It is better to do it here in the list so others have an
opportunity to help too.
Thanks,
Eugene
Kenneth Gonsalves
> > This is actually one of the accepted Summer of Code projects
> > for Django, so the best answer is perhaps to way until the
> > end of the summer to see what happens with it.
>
> ...or he can discuss it with Derek Anderson (the student) and
> Kenneth Gonsalves (the mentor) to make sure that Derek doesn't
> miss anything important. It is better to do it here in the list
> so others have an opportunity to help too.
as we are both here on the list, we can do it here
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/25/06, lazaridis_com <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> At this point, Django's persistency layer seems intresting, but the
>> evaluation uncovered a few weaknesses, most importantly the lack of
>> schema evolution support:
>>
>> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation
>
> Schema evolution support has already been discussed at length. See:
> http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/SchemaEvolution but it's not
> implemented yet.
I've overflown the document and will provide some feedback within a
seperate thread.
> You also may want to add SqlAlchemy to your list. It's pretty cool,
ok, done:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Persist
> although in the early stages of development. There's a Google Summer
> of Code project just starting to add schema evolution support to
> SqlAlchemy as well.
The two projects should cooperate a little (in context of their schema
evolution subsystems):
http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/wiki/CooperationProcess#SubsystemLevel
>> Overview of resulting simplification issues:
>>
>> * Replace command "django-admin.py" by "django-admin" or "django"
>> * Replace command "manage.py" by "django"
>
> These are kind of appealing to me, but my inner skeptic just screams
> "name churn".
I have created additionally a fictional django product. It should become
clear that Simplicity and Product-Identity (of the django product) would
be increased by this name change:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductFictional
> Adrian Holovaty is the final word on things like this though.
I assume "Adrian Holovaty" is the Django Project Lead?
Is there a Team Overview available?
>> * Enable sqlite3 database / filename by default
>
> I personally wouldn't want this. Where do you propose putting the
> database file? I *always* use absolute paths for sqlite db's. If you
> use relative paths, it's relative to your current directory, not
> relative to the location of the settings file. This could get really
> confusing for newbies if they execute manage.py from a different
> working directory.
The setup for Newcomers and Evaluators would be simplified this way.
The resulting possible problems can be solved by several ways (e.g.
syncdb creates folder /db/default.db and and absolute path to this file,
if necessary). Note: solution suggestion is just given as an example.
>> * Externalize database settings (e.g. dbdefault.py)
>
> You can do this already... that's the beauty of using python for
> settings. Just import * or whatever from the appropritate module in
> your main settings file.
Ok, I understand that I can do it.
But my main intrest is, to have this as a default, thus the definition
of multiple databases is possible (dbdevelope, dbtest, dbdeployed).
An alternative would be, to allow multiple database configurations
within the existent config file.
>> * Enable Admin application by default
>
> This has been discussed and dismissed serveral times already.
Comparing with other systems, this admin interface is one of the
strongest points of Django.
Remember that not every user is able to take all the setup barriers.
>> * Create a superuser by default (e.g. user:admin / pass:django)
>
> -1. The slight convenience doesn't make up for the security implications IMO.
The implementation could be e.g. with an command-line option "-s":
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductFictional#CreatetheDatabase
>> * Rename "startapp" to "createapp"
>
> Once again, name churn.
ok
>> Solving those Issues would allow to produce a Django-Quick-Start which
>> could be taken within 5 minutes (+ Installation Effort), which would
>> allow intrested parties to come quickly in contact with Django.
>
> You could provide your own project skeleton that would take care of
> all of this. There's no real need to change Django to accomplish any
> of the items above. I'd argue that splitting out the database config
> makes things *more* complicated. Part of the beauty of django is that
> it doesn't (in the paraphrased words of someone else, I forget who)
> "shit all over your filesystem like rails"
Of course I could provide an own project skeleton.
But my goal is, to select products/projects that care a lot about
simplicity/usability and especially "low barrier to entry".
An possibility would be, to allow multiple project templates (or
skeletons) for "django-admin startproject", e.g. by a 2nd parameter
(which would default to the existent project template, thus no breakage
is introduced).
-
As to my "Selection Case Project":
"This Project is Committed to Users of Open Source Products."
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/ProjectOverview
>> I would be intrested to creat a skeleton for the "Database Schema
>> Evolution" (I have implemente a very simply one for a Ruby ORM).
>
> See the link above.
>
>> To do so, I would need some feedback from the developers list.
>>
>> Can I rely on this?
>
> People are generally pretty helpful, but skeptical here. You generally
> need code and use cases to back up your ideas.
Ok. I will open a seperate thread on the schema evolution.
> Like any open source
> project though, we all work for free, so no promises.
I think the Django Project has everything to create and provide
commercial services around it. The incomings could be used to increase
the development speed and quality further.
> Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up. Everyone here
> pretty much has the current way things work engrained in our brains at
> this point and it's nice to see other perspectives.
It is _very_ important, to see the newcomer point of view, which I have
presented.
> Your quick start looks promising. I hope you keep working on it.
I will do so, but it can only write an efficient quick-start if django
itself is efficient in context of a 'quick-start'.
As mentioned above, the goal is something like this:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductFictional
[Sidenote: In the past, I had contacted the ruby-on-rails project,
pointing out the importancy of a single-file setup. They have reacted,
and provided a very simple user entry.]
> Joseph
Thank you for your thorough comments.
.
Ilias Lazaridis
I cannot wait so long and additionally I sense several problems for the
SoC project:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
> Jacob
.
Tom Tobin
While we appreciate your enthusiasm, your contributions might be
better received if you took some time to more thoroughly understand
the Django project and its community. It seems that you have an
interest in analyzing various software for what you find to be
"flaws"; while any useful and well-crafted contribution to the project
is welcome regardless of the motivation of its author, it seems that
your motivation is leading you to hasty conclusions and unnecessary
actions. Many of the points you raise regarding Django are either
trivial or downright mistaken; furthermore, your attempt to
independently replicate work that has already been spoken for and due
for completion (as a Summer of Code project) is effort better spent
elsewhere.
Take a step back, see what other people are doing and how they're
doing it, take note of what tends to be appreciated and what tends to
be criticized, and you'll be on your way. :-)
pub...@kered.org
>> Django, so the best answer is perhaps to way until the end of the
>> summer to see what happens with it.
>
> I cannot wait so long and additionally I sense several problems for the
> SoC project:
>
> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
ilias, you post this as if your URL detailed any of the following:
*) a design
*) a reason for your rush
*) the problems you sense for the SoC project
i'm open to input if you have it, but this isn't of use as-is.
thanks,
derek
je...@jeffcroft.com
>
> Is there a Team Overview available?
Disclaimer: I don't intend this to be rude, so forgive me if it sounds
that way...
Is it possible, given you haven't read the very first link on the
Django Site
(http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/faq/#who-s-behind-this),
that you may not really have enough background information on this
project to make such sweeping suggestions?
Ilias Lazaridis
>> I assume "Adrian Holovaty" is the Django Project Lead?
>>
>> Is there a Team Overview available?
>
> Disclaimer: I don't intend this to be rude, so forgive me if it sounds
> that way...
>
> Is it possible, given you haven't read the very first link on the
> Django Site
> (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/faq/#who-s-behind-this),
Thank you for the link.
> that you may not really have enough background information on this
> project to make such sweeping suggestions?
No, it is not.
First of all, I tend to go to the project page, to get the list of the
developers. But this information is missing.
I've added the link to the developers on the main project page:
http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/WikiStart?version=139
(to any responsible: please feel free to cancel this alteration)
-
Additionally: The fact that I have _not_ the full domain knowledge (=
background information) enables me to make those "sweeping suggestions"
from a newcomers point of view (who cares not much about project details
and internals, but just about his own convenience during product usage).
The suggestions are available, the project can either use them or reject
them:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductFictional
.
James Bennett
> background information) enables me to make those "sweeping suggestions"
> from a newcomers point of view (who cares not much about project details
> and internals, but just about his own convenience during product usage).
I guess the thing, to me personally at least, is this:
You pop up on the list out of nowhere and preface your emails with an
all-caps "AUDIT" notification. Yet a number of the suggestions you've
made in the course of this "audit" seem to indicate that there's still
quite a bit of homework you've left undone.
And don't take this personally, but after seeing links back ot your
site in every one of your posts, I clicked through and did some
reading. The site is confusing, a number of things are unlabeled or so
badly labeled that I can't figure out what they are, and your
"samples" listing includes a prominent disclaimer not to assume that
you've ever actually worked with the projects you did these audits on.
All of that makes me more than a little bit skeptical of what's going
on here.
--
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
-- George Carlin
Ilias Lazaridis
>>> This is actually one of the accepted Summer of Code projects for
>>> Django, so the best answer is perhaps to way until the end of the
>>> summer to see what happens with it.
>> I cannot wait so long and additionally I sense several problems for the
>> SoC project:
>>
>> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
>
> ilias, you post this as if your URL detailed any of the following:
> *) a design
Under "results", the document contains a working draft:
http://code.djangoproject.com/attachment/ticket/2043/simple_evolution_support.diff
> *) a reason for your rush
Although I do not understand why I should justify my rush:
deadlines, active projects
> *) the problems you sense for the SoC project
und "results" document contains a pointer to a message:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/msg/6524e591fa8e80b8
> i'm open to input if you have it, but this isn't of use as-is.
Those document is not meant to provide you or the Django team suggestions.
As stated within the mailinglist message, I can create a more specific
overall plan if the project/team is intrested:
"If the team is intrested in further elaborations, please let me know. "
-
If you have comments, please let me know within this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/msg/6524e591fa8e80b8
> thanks,
> derek
.
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/31/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> Additionally: The fact that I have _not_ the full domain knowledge (=
>> background information) enables me to make those "sweeping suggestions"
>> from a newcomers point of view (who cares not much about project details
>> and internals, but just about his own convenience during product usage).
>
> I guess the thing, to me personally at least, is this:
>
> You pop up on the list out of nowhere and preface your emails with an
> all-caps "AUDIT" notification. Yet a number of the suggestions you've
> made in the course of this "audit" seem to indicate that there's still
> quite a bit of homework you've left undone.
The term 'Audit' explained here:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/ProjectOverview
> And don't take this personally, but after seeing links back ot your
> site in every one of your posts, I clicked through and did some
> reading. The site is confusing, a number of things are unlabeled or so
> badly labeled that I can't figure out what they are, and your
> "samples" listing includes a prominent disclaimer not to assume that
> you've ever actually worked with the projects you did these audits on.
> All of that makes me more than a little bit skeptical of what's going
> on here.
Please feel free to send me any concrete criticism about my website via
private email (your comments are very welcome).
.
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/31/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
>>> On May 25, 2006, at 11:27 AM, lazaridis_com wrote:
>>>
>>>> At this point, Django's persistency layer seems intresting, but the
>>>> evaluation uncovered a few weaknesses, most importantly the lack of
>>>> schema evolution support:
>>> This is actually one of the accepted Summer of Code projects for
>>> Django, so the best answer is perhaps to way until the end of the
>>> summer to see what happens with it.
>> I cannot wait so long and additionally I sense several problems for the
>> SoC project:
>>
>> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
>
> While we appreciate your enthusiasm, your contributions might be
> better received if you took some time to more thoroughly understand
> the Django project and its community.
I have deadlines.
And my personal projects have of course priority.
> It seems that you have an
> interest in analyzing various software for what you find to be
> "flaws";
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/ProjectOverview
> while any useful and well-crafted contribution to the project
> is welcome regardless of the motivation of its author, it seems that
> your motivation is leading you to hasty conclusions and unnecessary
> actions.
It just seems so.
> Many of the points you raise regarding Django are either
> trivial or downright mistaken;
I would appreciate If you would become more concretely here.
> furthermore, your attempt to
> independently replicate work that has already been spoken for and due
> for completion (as a Summer of Code project) is effort better spent
> elsewhere.
This has been discussed already.
I do not replicate any work, but I have provided a limited _solution_
for a problem which I have _now_.
I haven taken additional effort to make this usable for other users and
for the project.
Of course I could ignore the existence of the team and the SoC project
fully, and maden my personal evolution support.
But I prefere to synchronize efforts and to share results.
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
> Take a step back, see what other people are doing and how they're
> doing it, take note of what tends to be appreciated and what tends to
> be criticized, and you'll be on your way. :-)
I have deadlines.
And my personal projects have of course priority.
.
Jay Parlar
> background information) enables me to make those "sweeping suggestions"
> from a newcomers point of view (who cares not much about project details
> and internals, but just about his own convenience during product usage).
That's not very good justification for not learning some of the basic
aspects of the framework. It's a lot like the people who come onto
c.l.p. (comp.lang.python) for the first time, and start complaining
about dynamic typing or lack of interfaces, or some other design
choice they didn't understand.
Hopefully you can find a good median point where you can get your work
done without frustrating everyone here.
Jay P.
James Bennett
> The term 'Audit' explained here:
>
> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/ProjectOverview
That page is a lot of marketing speak along with a note that open
source projects can order your services at a "reduced rate". So now
you sound like you're conducting the email equivalent of a sales call
on us. There's a nasty word for making unsolicited sales calls via
email, you know.
> Please feel free to send me any concrete criticism about my website via
> private email (your comments are very welcome).
OK, let's see what we find on your site:
* http://lazaridis.com/index.html <-- despite being fairly wordy, this
doesn't actually tell me what you do. You "audit"? For "strengths and
weaknesses?" Are you a usability consultant? A hardware consultant? An
efficiency consultant? A marketing consultant? You'll help me define a
"Coherent Requirements System", but you can't even give me a coherent
one-page description of what you do, so why should I believe you can
give me a coherent description of what I do?
* http://lazaridis.com/services/index.html <-- OK, so if I actually
click through from your home page you'll tell me what you do. Let's
set aside for a moment the fact that if I'm a potential client I've
already left your site to look at someone else, and take a gander at
this flowchart. To start with you'll "retrieve first impressions".
That's a good start, but why should I trust your ability to do this
reliably given that your own site doesn't give a good first
impression? The rest of this chart is so vague in its descriptions of
steps that it's hard to know what's going on. Will I be getting a
report from you? Will you be writing code? Do you bring in third-party
consultants to help with the "transform" step?
* http://lazaridis.com/services/description.html <-- OK, now I know a
little more; at various points you'll give me reports and apparently I
can pay you to act on them. How do you conduct "hardware verification"
over the Internet? I still don't know if I'm dealing with you or with
subcontracting consultants when we get to the "Transform" stage. You
say you offer "Website Redesign"; where are the samples of your design
work?
* http://lazaridis.com/samples/index.html <-- disclaims any actual
customer relationship with the projects you say you've audited. To an
experienced eye this is an indication that you have yet to find a
customer for your services, and that you have never actually conducted
a professional project audit.
* http://lazaridis.com/samples/com/ActiveState/index.html <-- Perhaps
David Ascher, if he's reading this, could clarify whether you've ever
had a customer relationship with ActiveState, since you won't say.
Your suggestions are "Free", "Change", "Simplify"; "Free" for
non-commercial use -- where's a statistic to back up this suggestion
as being good for increasing ActiveState's sales of Komodo? "Change"
how? "Simplify" how? It says "This sample demonstrates how a simple
website review can lead to several findings which affect product
management and marketing." No, it doesn't demonstrate anything; the
only concrete suggestions you've made are the "free for non-commercial
use", which doesn't have anything to do with the usability of the
site, and to change "killer" to "dynamic", which you don't provide any
explanation for. How do these suggestions affect product management
and marketing?
* http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo <-- the first line of this page
seems to indicate that they were doing you a favor, not that you were
providing them a service. Which is it? "The documentation is not yet
completed." What good is this as an example for me as a potential
customer if I can't see the results? And I've clicked through several
wiki pages but still can't find concrete details of both the
suggestions you made and whether, when implemented, they resulted in
Schevo achieving its goals more effectively.
* http://lazaridis.com/samples/com/ActiveState/continue.html <--
"Please remember: one main goal of thes sample is to showcase the
services." "More information within the service section." If this is
showcasing the services, why do I have to go to a different page to
get concrete descriptions of the services? And the "services" section
has already been covered above; I'm still confused about how exactly
you work. And, like a number of pages on your site, there's a typo. If
your own site is lackign even in copyediting, how can I expect you to
improve mine?
* http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/graph/overview.html <-- At this
point I just feel like making you read Edward Tufte over and over
again. All the flowcharts in this section could easily be replaced by
a few short paragraphs explaining each step of the process, with a
link at the end to request more documentation. Ideally, each step
would list an example of how it was applied on a particular project
and what it contributed to the eventual result.
* http://lazaridis.com/pj/index.html <-- Again with the flowcharts.
Also, according to the color key for this chart you've got a step
which is still underway despite a later step in the process, which can
only be reached after the completion of the still-in-process step,
being "fulfilled". How did that happen?
* http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/example/definition.html <-- This
flowchart seems to be saying that 51% efficiency yields 51% output. In
other words, you've used a flowchart to tell me that 0.51 == 0.51.
Were you afraid my system had floating-point rounding errors? And why
is this under "method"? Does your method only provide 51% efficiency?
* http://lazaridis.com/about/index.html <-- where are your
credentials? Relevant study and work experience? How long have you
been working in IT? How long have you been doing whatever it is that
you claim to do?
* http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html <-- Oh, it's here. I see
you've worked for "Software Company". I've worked for them, too! And
you've worked for "Startup Company" and "Hardware Vendor" and "Own
Project". This is your *resume* -- this is where you have to name
names to make claims, or potential clients simply will not trust you.
Based on this brief audit of your site, I have to say that if I were a
business I would not want to contract for your services.
And one more thing: you've said, in response to the existing schema
evolution project, that "I sense several problems for the SoC
project". Yet the page on your wiki you linked below that statement
did not provide any indication of this; it simply stated that Django
is "difficult to understand", apparently because Django is
object-oriented.
Could you provide a more concrete description of the problems you say
you sense? You mention that you can further document what you're
talking about "if the project/team is interested", but I'm unsure
whether this means you'll only tell us if we pay you; if that's the
case, and if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a check
to be mailed.
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/31/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> Additionally: The fact that I have _not_ the full domain knowledge (=
>> background information) enables me to make those "sweeping suggestions"
>> from a newcomers point of view (who cares not much about project details
>> and internals, but just about his own convenience during product usage).
>
> That's not very good justification for not learning some of the basic
> aspects of the framework.
This is not a justification.
And an efficient tool should assist a user to become productive immediately.
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Product#Functionality
There are webframeworks which provide this functionality.
An of course: a person without any domain-knowledge, is best able to
evaluate the entry-level functionality of those tools.
> Hopefully you can find a good median point where you can get your work
> done without frustrating everyone here.
I think you exaggregate ("everyone here").
And: I have find my way to combine my intrestst with the users intrests.
I hope this project finds it way, too.
.
James Bennett
Naming it 'django' would likely cause confusion, leading users to
believe that it runs an entire Django-powered site. There is a web
server built in to it, but this web server is explicitly not for
production use. Just cutting the '.py' off the end doesn't seem to
carry enough concrete usability enhancement to justify making a
backwards-incompatible change in Django; if you have solid data to
back up this suggestion could you please supply it?
> * Replace command "manage.py" by "django"
And confuse it with the other one that we'll be renaming to 'django'?
> * Enable sqlite3 database / filename by default
This would require us to dictate a location and name for the database;
this might not be consistent with what the user wishes, or even with
the filesystem permissions the user possesses, in which case the very
act of starting Django up would yield an error message.
> * Externalize database settings (e.g. dbdefault.py)
Why?
> * Enable Admin application by default
Why? In the past users of Django have complained about it creating
tables and installing applications by default, which is why Django
does not do so now.
> * Create a superuser by default (e.g. user:admin / pass:django)
This is a severe security risk.
> * Rename "startapp" to "createapp"
Why? It doesn't create the app. It starts the process of creating the app.
> * Provide basic Database Evolution (e.g. add field)
Irrelevant because schema evolution is being worked on.
James Bennett
> Please feel free to send me any concrete criticism about my website via
> private email (your comments are very welcome).
I seem to have screwed that up by forgetting that replies go to the
list by default. My apologies for the mistake.
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/25/06, lazaridis_com <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> * Replace command "django-admin.py" by "django-admin" or "django"
Thanks for your reply, but the discussion has evolved a little.
I had already replied to the reply of Mr. Joseph Kocherhans:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/msg/a34947ba90eabee6
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/31/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> Please feel free to send me any concrete criticism about my website via
>> private email (your comments are very welcome).
>
> I seem to have screwed that up by forgetting that replies go to the
> list by default. My apologies for the mistake.
For me it's not a problem.
I request feedback normally publically within usenet:
Website, after publishing pre-beta of services:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/b0e3487ef8b13eed
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/b0e3487ef8b13eed
Services, after publishing pre-release of services:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/bf87921ef017b70f
-
Thank you for your feedback.
I was not prepared to get such a huge amount.
I will process it within the next days.
.
Jay Parlar
>
> And an efficient tool should assist a user to become productive immediately.
>
> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Product#Functionality
>
> There are webframeworks which provide this functionality.
>
What exactly are you basing that claim "an efficient tool..." on?
There are a multitude of tools available that are incredibly
efficient, but require a large learning curve (think high end
video/audio editing applications, scientific computing apps, etc.). I
think when you focus *too* much on being productive immediately, you
often lose out in the long term.
I'm not saying that Django shouldn't have some effort on that, after
all, it's the web framework for "perfectionists with deadlines", but
you have to beware of blanket statements like you made. They hurt
credibility.
Jay P.
John Melesky
> Comparing with other systems, this admin interface is one of the
> strongest points of Django.
>
> Remember that not every user is able to take all the setup barriers.
If Django were an application intended to be used by end-users, then i
might buy this argument. But it's not. It's a framework for developers.
From the front page:
>>>>
Django was designed to handle two challenges: the intensive deadlines of
a newsroom and the stringent requirements of the experienced Web
developers who wrote it. It lets you build high-performing, elegant Web
applications quickly.
<<<<
Note the phrase "experienced Web developers". If someone can't deal with
having to decide which RDBMS to use, and put that in a conf file, then
they're hardly a developer. If someone can't find in the documentation
how to enable the admin interface, they're not likely a developer.
If someone is thrown by the fact that the admin scripts have ".py" at
the end, they're certainly not a Python developer, and likely not a
developer at all.
I'm not saying Django is a perfect framework, not at all, but none of
your suggestions do anything to make a developer's job easier, newcomer
or otherwise. Instead, they seem more useful to the proverbial "Aunt
Tillie", who is manifestly not the target user.
-johnnnnnnnnn
Kenneth Gonsalves
in addition google is shelling out money and support for this project
and it is not going to look good or help our relationship with
google, or django's image if people were to preempt or try to make
futile an SOC project approved of both by django and google
--
regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
http://avsap.org.in
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/31/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> And an efficient tool should assist a user to become productive immediately.
>>
>> http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Product#Functionality
>>
>> There are webframeworks which provide this functionality.
>>
>
> What exactly are you basing that claim "an efficient tool..." on?
taken from the above link:
"
Functionality
* Base Functionality - domain knowledge not neccessary (Product
encapsulates).
* Advanced Functionality - domain knowledge partly necessary.
* Expert Functionality - domain knowledge neccessary, partly
programming skills.
* Analyst Functionality - domain knowledge and analytic /
abstraction / programming skills necessary.
"
> There are a multitude of tools available that are incredibly
> efficient, but require a large learning curve (think high end
> video/audio editing applications, scientific computing apps, etc.).
those are other domains, but the above "Functionality Requirements"
should be valid for those domains, too.
> I
> think when you focus *too* much on being productive immediately, you
> often lose out in the long term.
I understand this.
But there are methods to deal with this, fro the quick-start topic here
e.g. a "multiple project templates" (as stated in another message):
django-admin.py startproject eval newcomer-project
django-admin.py startproject eval # uses standard-project
> I'm not saying that Django shouldn't have some effort on that, after
> all, it's the web framework for "perfectionists with deadlines", but
> you have to beware of blanket statements like you made. They hurt
> credibility.
I don't think that my statements are blanket.
I've provided demonstrations and even concrete results
(refactoring/implementation):
Newcomer first contact (as is):
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation
Newcomer first contact (as it could become, reduced steps)
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoProductFictional
Schema Evolution Draft:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
Concrete Working Patch:
http://code.djangoproject.com/attachment/ticket/2043/simple_evolution_support.diff
.
Ilias Lazaridis
I think you've missinterpreted the writings in the frot-page.
Django cares about simplicity, and of course developers are users too.
"Django is a high-level Python Web framework that encourages rapid
development and clean, pragmatic design."
"It lets you build high-performing, elegant Web applications quickly."
"Django focuses on automating as much as possible and adhering to the
DRY principle."
source: http://www.djangoproject.com/
-
Automation is of course essential for any development tool:
http://lazaridis.com/core/product/case.html
.
Ilias Lazaridis
I don't think that anyone "preemt's" or "tries to make futile" this the
SoC project.
.
Adrian Holovaty
OK, everybody, let's settle down... This is slowly turning into a
really lame argument that's not much fun to read.
More smiles! More comradery! More friendliness!
Ilias, thanks for your contributions. We'll examine each one of them
on a case-by-case basis, but I cannot guarantee that all or any of
them will be committed.
Adrian
--
Adrian Holovaty
holovaty.com | djangoproject.com
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 5/31/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>> I think you've missinterpreted the writings in the frot-page.
>
> OK, everybody, let's settle down... This is slowly turning into a
> really lame argument that's not much fun to read.
>
> More smiles! More comradery! More friendliness!
>
> Ilias, thanks for your contributions.
my pleasure.
> We'll examine each one of them
> on a case-by-case basis, but I cannot guarantee that all or any of
> them will be committed.
Of course (please examine them in the given context, which is "newcomer,
first contact").
-
I have understood the doubts of the people which have written and I will
try to create a document which hopefully will clarify everything.
-
btw: As it looks at this point, I will most possibly select django for a
personal project.
The fact that a SoC project is dedicated to implement Schema Evolution
and this document provided by the executin student:
https://kered.org/blog/2006/05/24/summer-of-code/
were relevant factors for my decision.
.
Tom Tobin
>
> smart...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > You can try this EnergyKey
> > http://www30.webSamba.com/SmartStudio
> > This may be help you.
> > Now I always use EnergyKey, it helps me so much in my work.
>
> very intresting tool!
There's an interesting phenomenon you may wish to add to your "audit"
knowledge; it's called "spam".
Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov
mentioned here:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/138966
On 25-mei-2006, at 18:27, lazaridis_com wrote:
>
> For a long term project, I am selecting a python based persistency
> system:
--
Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov
please send all personal mail to
me at julik.nl
Carlo C8E Miron
>
> I would advise all respected Django contributors to follow the path
> mentioned here:
>
> http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/138966
and maybe also
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias
;)
--
Carlo C8E Miron, ICQ #26429731
--
Disclaimer:
If I receive a message from you, you are agreeing that:
1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient".
2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and
make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it
lends itself to. In particular, I may quote it on USENET or the WWW.
3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company.
4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality that
may be included on your message.
Jay Parlar
>
> On 6/2/06, Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov <julian.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would advise all respected Django contributors to follow the path
> > mentioned here:
> >
> > http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/138966
>
> and maybe also
>
> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias
>
> ;)
Something seemed "off" the whole time with that guy, but he seemed to
be doing too much research into Django to be a real troll. He must
have a LOT of free time.
Jay P.
Nicola Larosa (tekNico)
Didn't want to steal your thunder, pal, but since you weren't speaking
up, I did. Thanks for that URL! :-)
--
Nicola Larosa - http://www.tekNico.net/
Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov
On 2-jun-2006, at 22:14, Carlo C8E Miron wrote:
>
> On 6/2/06, Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov <julian.t...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I would advise all respected Django contributors to follow the path
>> mentioned here:
>>
>> http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/138966
>
> and maybe also
>
> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias
Half of Google to be precise. Subject closed.
Derek Anderson
Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov
On 2-jun-2006, at 22:14, Carlo C8E Miron wrote:
>
> On 6/2/06, Julian 'Julik' Tarkhanov <julian.t...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I would advise all respected Django contributors to follow the path
>> mentioned here:
>>
>> http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/138966
>
> and maybe also
>
> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias
Quite a history:
http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00291.html
http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jspa?
forumID=27&messageID=3439721&threadID=122131&q=
and a response from Hani is the best to date, hats off.
Jorge Gajon
like this.
It makes you question if someone is paying him to do this, or if he
has a serious psychological condition that deserves its own branch of
study.
Good thing he got spotted sooner than later.
Kenneth Gonsalves
On 03-Jun-06, at 10:37 PM, Jorge Gajon wrote:
> Unbelievable how can someone spend so much time and effort on trolling
> like this.
>
> It makes you question if someone is paying him to do this, or if he
> has a serious psychological condition that deserves its own branch of
> study.
>
> Good thing he got spotted sooner than later.
and he is pretty good - although he irritated me from the start, as
being new to the devel list i thought that he was a senior hand and
bent over backwards to be polite to him ...
Nagy Károly
>On 03-Jun-06, at 10:37 PM, Jorge Gajon wrote:
>
>
>
>>Unbelievable how can someone spend so much time and effort on trolling
>>like this.
>>
>>It makes you question if someone is paying him to do this, or if he
>>has a serious psychological condition that deserves its own branch of
>>study.
>>
>>Good thing he got spotted sooner than later.
>>
>>
>
>and he is pretty good - although he irritated me from the start, as
>being new to the devel list i thought that he was a senior hand and
>bent over backwards to be polite to him ...
>
>
Statistically proven performance:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/about (look at right
column)
I assume he has/had some other aliases (can't remember, 3-4 week ago was
a girl nickname with same attitude)
What is the point?
Charlie.
--
"...s minden mestert kinevettem, ki nem nevetett önmagán."
GPG public key: http://www.rendszergazda.com/gpg/charlie-gpg-public-key.asc
Kenneth Gonsalves
On 04-Jun-06, at 1:48 PM, Nagy Károly wrote:
> I assume he has/had some other aliases (can't remember, 3-4 week
> ago was
> a girl nickname with same attitude)
> What is the point?
maybe he is doing a thesis or some sort of survey ;-)
Ian Holsman
him that way.
(or it's a language issue).. anyway..
on another topic.. has anyone tried tagthe.net ? it looks pretty cool.