OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies !
ultr...@gmail.com
their healthcare plan ... the bbc did not report it but a teen died
while waiting on an ambulance that was setting at the hospital
with a patient inside because the hospitals were full and did not
want to violate a government mandate of a 4 hour must treat law.
Canada people coming here ... England people that have the money
flying to India to have surgery ...
don't worry, those rich liberal Harvard grads will be able to afford
it while those they claim to want to help will be dying waiting for
an ambulance ...
that what socialism does, it ruins a country ...
ultr...@gmail.com
David J Dachtera
(Relax, folks, Boob is just trying to up the post tallies for this year
to stem the downward spiral of VMS. Maybe the "MI5" guy will help him
out.)
ultr...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hillary won ... her socialist healthcare system and these kind
of results like above are getting closer to becoming reality here ...
Andrew
Bob.
47 million Americans have no heath insurance, 8.7 million of those are
children.
Studies have estimated that up to 18,000 people a year die in the US
unnecessarily because they do not have health insurance.
Want to guess which heatlhcare system I would prefer to have as my
safety net???
Regards
Andrew
Richard B. Gilbert
I had no health insurance as a child! I'm not sure that there was such
a thing in the 1940's ! I managed to survive somehow.
Of course medical care was a great deal cheaper then and your life
expectancy was not quite as great as it is now. There were fewer
people, fewer doctors, fewer hospitals, fewer miracle drugs, etc. A lot
of people died, people we could cure today. There are still things we
cannot cure but there is usually some sort of treatment that provides
some sort of relief, extended survival, etc.
Doug Phillips
Here in the US we can be proud of our system where according to the
CDC, each year there are ~1.7 million health care-associated
infections and 99,000 related deaths. An AP article was just published
today about a clinic in Las Vegas:
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/37nlwy>
Yep, the US system's working just great. NOT!
Bob Koehler
>
> I had no health insurance as a child! I'm not sure that there was such
> a thing in the 1940's ! I managed to survive somehow.
That is not the issue. Those who did not survive are the issue.
And now I'll try to stop feeding the troll.
ultr...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
one problem is all those lawsuits from the democrats
trial attorney buddies ... that just makes malpractice
insurance ballon and it is passed on to us ...
so the same people who say they can solve it are part
of the problem ...
another is hospitals going broke from illegals coming
here for free treatment ... just ask people leaving CA
why they are leaving and what is happening to the
hospitals and schools there (taxes) ...
ultr...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
so subsidize the insurance companies to take them on, but
do not socialize the healthcare system! Look at social
security ... another example of lawyers trying to run my
finances, now they want to run my medical decisions ...
no thanks ...
look at the wonderful mess they have made of things in
England ...
your country is socially falling apart Andrew right before
your eyes and you cannot see the train wreck ...
JF Mezei
do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to
oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use
religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the USA) ?
It is interesting that the country that should understand religious
extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many
extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists
political voices and power.
bradhamilton
I would say the "we" in the USA don't "understand" religious extremists
because we generally are tolerant of religion (read: neutral). I think
it would be more accurate to say, post-9/11, that we hate religious
extremism when it is used as an excuse to murder others.
Do religious extremists in the USA have political voices? Yes. Do they
wield political power? Generally, no - there has still been no
establishment of state religion, despite the best efforts of a vocal
minority.
Some may claim that "we" are a Christian nation, simply by force of
numbers, but that ignores the fact that synagogues, mosques, cathedrals,
and congregations stand literally cheek-by-jowl next to each other in
many parts of our country. I grew up across the street from a
synagogue, located one mile away from my (Catholic) church, and
one-and-one-half miles away from one of the first mosques on the East
Coast of the USA.
So, no, I don't think that religious extremists have a death grip on my
country's politics, and our tolerance remains a beacon for those who may
feel oppressed by any particular brand of religion, or by religion in
general.
John Wallace
<ultr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:521cd774-b84c-4318...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 6, 10:04 am, Andrew <andrew_harri...@symantec.com> wrote:
(Normally reluctant to "feed the trolls", but a couple of 'points' to make
here)
> that what socialism does, it ruins a country ...
>
There hasn't been a socialist government in the UK in most folks' living
memory. The Blair era wasn't socialist, it might just as well have been the
Bush era, for all the difference between the two of them in what they *did*.
The Blair legacy has to be measured based on what Blair did, and not on his
speeches and policy statements, because Blair's "achievements" and Blair's
party speeches came from two different worlds.
Blair himself has relatively recently converted to Catholicism and in an
interview has said he'd been worried that folks would consider him a
"religious nutter" if he'd converted while he was PM. For many folks in the
UK, his concern is legitimate, there's plenty of evidence that he's been an
economic and social disaster, a liar, a murderer, a war criminal, and maybe
a "religious nutter" too. He's a good mate of Bill's Clinton and Gates, and
of Dubya's, though, so he must be OK, right?
> your country is socially falling apart Andrew right before
> your eyes and you cannot see the train wreck ...
Actually Boob, "train wreck" is an interesting choice of words. The UK's
rail safety record was pretty reasonable while the railways were under state
(not "socialist") ownership (the first time they were nationalised was when
the operators couldn't run them properly themselves). Since the 1960s there
had been cuts rather than investment, but market forces were supposed to fix
that when the railways were privatised to satisfy Reaganomic principles (ie
pay for tax cuts). After a while, there hadn't been any investment in the
railways, and, worse, "maintenance" had become "repairs" because routine
inspection and maintenance was a drain on profits, even after it had been
subcontracted out to the lowest bidder, and everyone knew that there hadn't
been any serious rail accidents for years, right, so maintenance money was
money wasted, right? Then after a while, there started to be avoidable
incidents, some of them sadly involving serious injuries or fatalities, and
those ones tended to get into the news. Market forces ended up being shown
as having been so bad at maintaining the UK railway infrastructure that the
company which maintained the rail infrastructure has recently been brought
back under government (not "socialist") control; sadly the damage may take a
little while to repair, as people with clue about how to run a railway are
in short supply and tend not to be young either (a bit like people with clue
about how to properly run a business-critical IT operation, but that
discussion might be On Topic so I'll leave it)...
2p
John
Andrew
Not quite sure how you reached that conclusion. One child's death
however regrettable does not prove that the system in the UK has
failed.
18,000 deaths a year which could have been avoided if the US had a
public health care system like the UK's on the other hand does seem to
be a rather larger body of evidence to support the thesis that those
in glass houses should not throw stones.
> your country is socially falling apart Andrew right before
> your eyes and you cannot see the train wreck ...
Bob everything would look different if you came out from behind the
razor wire fencing and dumped the assault rifle.
Regards
Andrew
ultr...@gmail.com
I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
others because they will not believe ...
the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put
to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians
who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not
romans ...
VAXman-
>{...snip...}
>Actually Boob, "train wreck" is an interesting choice of words. The UK's
>rail safety record was pretty reasonable while the railways were under state
>(not "socialist") ownership (the first time they were nationalised was when
>the operators couldn't run them properly themselves). Since the 1960s there
>had been cuts rather than investment, but market forces were supposed to fix
>that when the railways were privatised to satisfy Reaganomic principles (ie
>pay for tax cuts). After a while, there hadn't been any investment in the
>railways, and, worse, "maintenance" had become "repairs" because routine
>inspection and maintenance was a drain on profits, even after it had been
>subcontracted out to the lowest bidder, and everyone knew that there hadn't
>been any serious rail accidents for years, right, so maintenance money was
>money wasted, right? Then after a while, there started to be avoidable
>incidents, some of them sadly involving serious injuries or fatalities, and
>those ones tended to get into the news. Market forces ended up being shown
>as having been so bad at maintaining the UK railway infrastructure that the
>company which maintained the rail infrastructure has recently been brought
>back under government (not "socialist") control; sadly the damage may take a
>little while to repair, as people with clue about how to run a railway are
>in short supply and tend not to be young either (a bit like people with clue
>about how to properly run a business-critical IT operation, but that
>discussion might be On Topic so I'll leave it)...
I've ridden the trains in the UK extensively during travels there. Here
in the states we have nothing akin to the UK commuter rail system. They
seemed fine to me save for a few schedule snafus that mucked up catching
other trains. However, I've heard your gripes from the 'natives' on the
trains. First Great Western lines and the Virgin lines seemed nice and
well kept. Others, however, were old, dirty (both inside and out), and
in need of repair.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Richard B. Gilbert
I guess I'm just not up to date on the terminology. How does
"socialism" differ from state ownership/control?
Bob Koehler
> I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
> MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The operative word isn't Christian or Muslim. The operative word
is exteemist, like you.
> Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
> others because they will not believe ...
They sure do.
> the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put
> to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians
> who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not
> romans ...
So your alive, means you're not a true Christian?
NO RELIGION has a monopoly on bad acts or good acts.
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>> Bob,
>>
>> do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to
>> oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use
> ?
>>
>> It is interesting that the country that should understand religious
>> extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many
>> extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists
>> political voices and power.
>
>I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
>MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
>others because they will not believe ...
>
their enemies should be considered any different than a terrorist who
just plants a bomb and walks away and therefore lives to plant further bombs.
The IRA whose members were supposedly Christians didn't use suicide bombing
but they did force others to drive cars filled with explosives at British
Army checkpoints by threatening their families
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb
( So no they didn't tie bombs to themselves to kill others - they "tied" bombs
to other innocent civilians and blew them up to kill others.
I'd regard that tactic as being far more dispicable that suicide bombing)
It is also probably worth noting that some of the Japanese Kamikazi pilots
were Christian see
http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomber.htm
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
ultr...@gmail.com
> In article <bf2fec9c-1136-4473-8f28-4b4861133...@34g2000hsz.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 6, 8:27=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >> Bob,
>
> >> do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to
> >> oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use
> >> religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the USA)=
> > ?
>
> >> It is interesting that the country that should understand religious
> >> extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many
> >> extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists
> >> political voices and power.
>
> >I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
> >MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> >Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
> >others because they will not believe ...
>
> I've never understood why a terrorist who sacrifices themselves when attacking
> their enemies should be considered any different than a terrorist who
> just plants a bomb and walks away and therefore lives to plant further bombs.
> The IRA whose members were supposedly Christians didn't use suicide bombing
> but they did force others to drive cars filled with explosives at British
> Army checkpoints by threatening their families
> ( So no they didn't tie bombs to themselves to kill others - they "tied" bombs
> to other innocent civilians and blew them up to kill others.
> I'd regard that tactic as being far more dispicable that suicide bombing)
>
> It is also probably worth noting that some of the Japanese Kamikazi pilots
> were Christian see
>
>
> David Webb
> Security team leader
> CCSS
> Middlesex University
>
>
>
> >the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put
> >to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians
> >who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
wrong ... they were NOT Christians ...
true Christians know that only God has the right to
kill, and that means suicide too, and if they do it is
murder ... and you can add abortion to that too ...
just because someone says there are a Christian
does not mean they are ...
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>On Mar 7, 9:05=A0am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <bf2fec9c-1136-4473-8f28-4b4861133...@34g2000hsz.googlegroups.c=
>om>, ultra...@gmail.com writes:>> >> do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to=
>
>> >> oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use=
>
>> >> religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the U=
>SA)=3D
>> > ?
>>
>> >> It is interesting that the country that should understand religious
>> >> extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many
>> >> extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists
>> >> political voices and power.
>>
>> >I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
>> >MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> >Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
>> >others because they will not believe ...
>>
>king
>> their enemies should be considered any different than a terrorist who
>bs.
>> The IRA whose members were supposedly Christians didn't use suicide bombin=
>g
>> but they did force others to drive cars filled with explosives at British
>> Army checkpoints by threatening their families
>> ( So no they didn't tie bombs to themselves to kill others - they "tied" b=
>ombs
>> to other innocent civilians and blew them up to kill others.
>> I'd regard that tactic as being far more dispicable that suicide bombing)
>>
>
>> were Christian see
>>
>> http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomb...
>>
>> Security team leader
>> CCSS
>> Middlesex University
>>
>>
>>
>> >the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put
>> >to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians
>> >who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>true Christians know that only God has the right to
>kill, and that means suicide too, and if they do it is
>murder ... and you can add abortion to that too ...
>
Catholic church - Inquisition killing heretics, witches etc
Christian countries fighting wars in the name of religion.
Most religious denominations fighting and indeed glorying in wars.
The IRA members definitely considered themselves to be Catholic just as the
Loyalists considered themselves to be protestants.
>
>just because someone says there are a Christian
>does not mean they are ...
>
The same could be said about many who profess to be muslims.
AEF
Some scientists favor creationism over evolution. These are not true
scientists.
Just because someone says he is a scientist doesn't make it so.
Bob, have you heard of the Crusades? At least one pope, Pope Alexander
II -- well, here's the quote from the Wikipedia Crusades article:
"In 1063, Pope Alexander II [gave] his blessing to Iberian Christians
in their wars against the Muslims, granting both a papal standard (the
vexillum sancti Petri) and an indulgence to those who were killed in
battle."
So I suppose at least one pope wasn't Christian?
AEF
AEF
JF Mezei
> I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
> MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
> others because they will not believe ...
Your rants in comp.os.vms are the milder equivalent of tying a bomb to
yourself and making it explode where it doesn't belong. You are trying
desperatly to attract attention to your beliefs and hoping to convince
others to join your jihads for pollution and to defent the USA
healthcare and use your bible to justify your positions on those issues.
I didn't equate "christians" to "muslim extremists". I equated
"christian extremists" to "muslim extremists".
JF Mezei
> I guess I'm just not up to date on the terminology. How does
> "socialism" differ from state ownership/control?
Air Canada was a crown corporation. Its shares were owned by the
canadian government, but it operated as a corporation, with dividends
and all (if it made profits). The canadian government, being the owner,
would nominate its people onto the AC board.
When the government sold its AC shares in the stock exchange, it stopped
being government owned. However, to the public and AC customers, it made
no difference, AC continued to sell tickets the same way, at the same
prices and continued to have the same irritating staff and complaints
about AC.
When Canadair nearly went under, the canadian government bought all
shares and kept Canadair alive. It had unique product needed to fight
forest fires. It was also developping something new (the Challenger jet
aircraft). Eventually, it found a buyer (Bombardier) and Bombardier then
came in, cleaned it up and saw the potential to develop the challenger
into a regional jet (the CRJ). Same thing happened to de-Haviland which
remained government owned for quite some time, was then sold to Boeing
and Bombardier then bought it from Boeing after Boeing decided it wasn't
interested.
This isn't about government using tax revenus to provide subsidized
services to citizens. It is about the government using its money to make
strategic investments to provide jobs and provide strategic services to
let the economy grow. ( in the case of Air Canada, it isn't very
different from a government building a highway and putting tolls on it
to get the highway to pay for itself).
In the USA, "pork" is the USA's equivalent. Consider that when the
decided to retire the shuttle, the government didn't let NASA draw
totally new plans, it imposed requirements that certain plants/companies
(notably the one in the New Orleans area) continue to be used, so the
new design has been squewed to make use of certain shuttle technologies.
Socialism is about the government providing equal services to everyone.
For instance, free schooling, subsidized university so it is very
affordable, free healthcare to everyone etc etc.
Note that in the case of healthcare, it doesn't preclude private
clinics. It simply means that the private doctor will bill the
national/provincial insurance company for his services instead of
billing either the patient or some private insurance company. It also
means that it is the government that decides what is covered by the
health care plan and what isn't covered (eg: cosmetic/elective surgery
isn't covered).
Richard B. Gilbert
Both of you are adding to the noise level without convincing anyone!
JF Mezei
> Both of you are adding to the noise level without convincing anyone!
If you are being flooded with surrious unwanted OPCOM messages, you need
to take some action and issue a REPLY/DISABLE to make them stop, or go
to the source and fix the problem that generates those messages.
Neil Rieck
>
> - Show quoted text -
What is the alternative? On 60 Minutes last week they said that 47
million people in America don't have any health insurance. Then the
interview some poor devils at a charity medical event near Knoxville
who had health insurance through is employer but is came with a $500
deductable.
If memory serves, it was Nixon who pushed through legistlation to
allow HMOs to exist which led to the obscene profits and CEO pay
packets etc.
NSR
VAXman-
>Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>> Both of you are adding to the noise level without convincing anyone!
>
Spurious?
>to take some action and issue a REPLY/DISABLE to make them stop, or go
>to the source and fix the problem that generates those messages.
Try this:
$ MCR NCL BLOCK EVENT DISPATCHER OUTBOUND STREAM comp.os.vms GLOBAL FILTER -
((Boob,ultradwc), All OT rabble rousing right-wing religious doggerel)
:)
ultr...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
those who kill in the name of God are NOT Christians ...
God has very rarely given that authority to anyone outside
of Himself, mainly the jews in certain circumstances ...
most of the time, he sends the angel of death to handle
that ...
ultr...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
the crusades were wrong ... God does not want anyone to be forced
to repent and live for Him ... Jesus Christ did not go around forcing
people to convert ... that has to be your choice ... YOU decide where
you will spend eternity ...
ultr...@gmail.com
no I am refuting yours ... you are like other liberals who do not
want to debate anything ... you are right and everyone else is
wrong and that is it ...
well, the US has not become England and Canada yet ... there
is still something called free speech in this country ...
ultr...@gmail.com
that is not govrnments jobs but the private sector ...
unless of course you are a socialist government ...
even china and russia have learned that capitalism
is the best solution ... they are no longer socialists
but now fachists ...
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>On Mar 7, 11:17=A0am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <c22e4845-a4d4-499e-ab09-d5e936ded...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.c=
>om>, ultra...@gmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 7, 9:05=3DA0am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>> >> In article <bf2fec9c-1136-4473-8f28-4b4861133...@34g2000hsz.googlegroup=
>s.c=3D
>> >om>, ultra...@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> >> >On Mar 6, 8:27=3D3DA0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrot=
>e:
>> >> >> Bob,
>>
>> >> >> do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons=
> to=3D
>>
>> >> >> oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who =
>use=3D
>>
>> >> >> religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as th=
>e U=3D
>> >SA)=3D3D
>> >> > ?
>>
>> >> >> It is interesting that the country that should understand religious
>> >> >> extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many
>> >> >> extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists
>> >> >> political voices and power.
>>
>> >> >I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
>> >> >MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> >> >Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
>> >> >others because they will not believe ...
>>
>tac=3D
>> >king
>> >> their enemies should be considered any different than a terrorist who
>bom=3D
>> >bs.
>> >> The IRA whose members were supposedly Christians didn't use suicide bom=
>bin=3D
>> >g
>> >> but they did force others to drive cars filled with explosives at Briti=
>sh
>> >> Army checkpoints by threatening their families
>> >> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb
>" b=3D
>> >ombs
>> >> to other innocent civilians and blew them up to kill others.
>g)
>>
>> >> It is also probably worth noting that some of the Japanese Kamikazi pil=
>ots=3D
>>
>> >> were Christian see
>>
>> >>http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomb...=
>
>>
>> >> David Webb
>> >> Security team leader
>> >> CCSS
>> >> Middlesex University
>>
>> >> >the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put
>> >> >to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians
>> >> >who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not
>> >> >romans ...- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >wrong ... they were NOT Christians ...
>>
>> >true Christians know that only God has the right to
>> >kill, and that means suicide too, and if they do it is
>> >murder ... and you can add abortion to that too ...
>>
>> So throughout history most christians haven't really been christian ?
>> Catholic church - Inquisition killing heretics, witches etc
>> Christian countries fighting wars in the name of religion.
>> Most religious denominations fighting and indeed glorying in wars.
>>
>e
>> Loyalists considered themselves to be protestants.
>>
>>
>>
>> >just because someone says there are a Christian
>> >does not mean they are ...
>>
>> The same could be said about many who profess to be muslims.
>>
>> David Webb
>> Security team leader
>> CCSS
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
those who called themselves Christians were not really Christians.
In that case you cannot use your definition of Christians in comparison with
other religious groups since you have introduced a gigantic selection bias
based upon the very thing you are comparing.
To see how silly this is we can compare your True Christians with the more
general Christian community (ie those who profess to being Christians) rather
than other groups such as those professing to be Muslims
So we can say
True Christians kill less than Christians
which basically translates as
Those Christians who don't kill kill less than the group of Christians which
includes people who do kill.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
ultr...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
being a Christian is not a religion ...
there are good catholics and bad, same with all
other groups ...
many that go to church but are not living the part
will not make it into the kingdom ...
that is why it says the road to hell is wide and many
will find it while the road to heaven is straight and narrow
and FEW find it ...
religion does not get you into heaven ...
AEF
> On Mar 7, 1:15 pm, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 7, 11:29 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > > wrong ... they were NOT Christians ...
>
> > > true Christians know that only God has the right to
> > > kill, and that means suicide too, and if they do it is
> > > murder ... and you can add abortion to that too ...
>
> > > just because someone says there are a Christian
> > > does not mean they are ...
>
> > Some scientists favor creationism over evolution. These are not true
> > scientists.
>
> > Just because someone says he is a scientist doesn't make it so.
>
> > Bob, have you heard of the Crusades? At least one pope, Pope Alexander
> > II -- well, here's the quote from the Wikipedia Crusades article:
>
> > "In 1063, Pope Alexander II [gave] his blessing to Iberian Christians
> > in their wars against the Muslims, granting both a papal standard (the
> > vexillum sancti Petri) and an indulgence to those who were killed in
> > battle."
>
> > So I suppose at least one pope wasn't Christian?
>
> > AEF
>
> > AEF- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> the crusades were wrong ...
Correct. So you're saying at least one pope wasn't a Christian? Please
confirm or deny and explain.
> God does not want anyone to be forced
How do you know there even is "God"?
>
> to repent and live for Him ...
How do you know?
> Jesus Christ did not go around forcing
>
> people to convert ...
No comment.
> that has to be your choice ...
Fine.
> YOU decide where
>
> you will spend eternity ...
It's called the grave. I don't believe there is an afterlife. Consider
an infant, or fetus, or embryo. What are they like in the afterlife?
Is an embryo still an embryo? If not, how does it work? How does an
embryo repent, for example? There's more, but I'll start with this.
AEF
JF Mezei
> those who kill in the name of God are NOT Christians ...
Those who kill in the name of Allha are not good muslims either. But it
doesn't detract from that fact that there are extremists who kill and
find some sort of religious justification for their acts.
You only need to look at your current president. As governor of texas,
he killed people. (death penalty). And as president, has massacred a
country and responsible for over 150,000 deaths, countless injuries and
torture. Yet, because he says he is a religious person and because he
is against killing cells in a test tube, the religious right in the USA
support him. Go figure.
Religious nutters of any religion are dangerous. They think they act on
behalf of God and that it gives them the right to do stuff that is
unacceptable.
David J Dachtera
>
> On Feb 28, 9:37 pm, David J Dachtera <djesys...@spam.comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > ultra...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > here is a glance of things to come if Hillary or Obama implement
> > > their healthcare plan ... the bbc did not report it but a teen died
> > > while waiting on an ambulance that was setting at the hospital
> > > with a patient inside because the hospitals were full and did not
> > > want to violate a government mandate of a 4 hour must treat law.
> >
> > > Canada people coming here ... England people that have the money
> > > flying to India to have surgery ...
> >
> > > don't worry, those rich liberal Harvard grads will be able to afford
> > > it while those they claim to want to help will be dying waiting for
> > > an ambulance ...
> >
> > > that what socialism does, it ruins a country ...
> >
> > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7249514.stm
> >
> > (Relax, folks, Boob is just trying to up the post tallies for this year
> > to stem the downward spiral of VMS. Maybe the "MI5" guy will help him
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> of results like above are getting closer to becoming reality here ...
Guess I'll have to study up on the HRC$ routines in the RTL and see what
can be done about that.
David J Dachtera
(formerly dba) DJE Systems
ultr...@gmail.com
look at all the evidence! start with the the accounts of the
apostles in the bible ... they all died for Him ... look at all
the Christians buried in the catacombs in Rome ... these
people all experienced something they were willing to die
for ... they were not all nuts ...
next, Mount Sinai has been found and proves that Moses
really lived and all the miracles that God did are there also ...
they even found chariot wheels dated to that period at the
crossing site ... just go to youtube and search on Mount
Siani Saudi Arabia ... all the videos are there ... watch them
prove the bible is not stories but history ... ever read the
jewish historian Josephus, he confirms much of it ...
ever read Revelation or Daniel or other prophecies in the bible?
they are coming true every day ...
how about the shroud of turin?
God has given you His Son, the prophets, historical artifacts
and finds, and even science is confirming intelligent design ...
they have reversed the gene pool and found we all came from
the same mother and father ... Adam and Eve ring a bell?
>
> How do you know?
because He said so!
>
> > YOU decide where
>
> > you will spend eternity ...
>
> It's called the grave. I don't believe there is an afterlife. Consider
> an infant, or fetus, or embryo. What are they like in the afterlife?
> Is an embryo still an embryo? If not, how does it work? How does an
> embryo repent, for example? There's more, but I'll start with this.
every person has a soul, adult child baby or embryo ...
the age of accountability is 12 ... you are not held accountable
for your sins until that time ... that is what bar mitzvahs
celebrate ...
it is important as parents to bring up your children teaching them
about God or they end up like you lost ... you are responsible
for your children and if you bring them up wrong you are condeming
your own children to hell and you are held accountable ...
everyone that dies will be raised again and given a new body ...
what you look like is unknown, but it will live forever ... the only
question is where ... young babies that die prematurely either
naturally or by abortion will be given a body ... weither it is a
childs one or adult one is unknown, but they will have one and since
they died before the age of accoutability they will not be sent to the
lake of fire ... but they also will be tempted by the devil just like
everyone else was, because soon Christ will come back and reign
for 1000 years, then the devil will be released one final time amongst
man for one final chance to lure man to the lake of fire with him for
eternity ...
Neil Rieck
> > > On Mar 7, 1:15 pm, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > How do you know there even is "God"?
>
> look at all the evidence! start with the the accounts of the
> apostles in the bible ... they all died for Him ... look at all
> the Christians buried in the catacombs in Rome ... these
> people all experienced something they were willing to die
> for ... they were not all nuts ...
>
mentions miracles or the ascension. If you take all the writtings of
the New Testament then put them in chronological order, you'll
discover that miracles "creep into" the accounts as time passes by.
This means only one thing to most people: the order of these books
(which was set after 300 AD by a Roman emperor) was selected to dupe
the masses. So I think it is safe to say that the Bible is a religious
document but not an historical one.
Maybe the muslims are correct on this one: Jesus was just another one
of God's prophets.
p.s. OTOH, if Jesus was the son of God, he was sent here to teach us
how to live and pray. How could he be a model for us if he is divine
and we are not. It makes more sense that he became a model for us by
not performing miracles.
NSR
JF Mezei
There is no evidence. That is why it is called "FAITH".
> next, Mount Sinai has been found and proves that Moses
> really lived and all the miracles that God did are there also ...
Interesting you mention that. this past week, some scientists in israel
have come up with the theory that Moses didn't witness miracles, he was
simply high on some hallucinogenic drugs and and just imagined those
miracles.
Say they invent time travel next year. Nothing would then prevent Tom
Green or Jim Carey to travel back to year 00 along with a few hollywood
special efects experts and then just act out what is described in the
bible (thus causing the bible to be written by people who would have
witnessed Tom Green's antics).
ultr...@gmail.com
sorry, but if you watch the documentary it is all there ...
altar of the golden calf
boundary markers
Moses altar with 12 stone marble pillars
Elijahs cave
burned peak mountain with a cleft rock on one top
split rock at Horeb
and much more ... watch the doc first JF before you
just read and believe another NY times false article ...
thiese are actual pictures and film shot by a group of
brave men and a brave family ...
AEF
Bob, I'm taking this off-line. I just fired off an email to you from
my spamsink2001 address.
AEF
Bob Koehler
>
> well, the US has not become England and Canada yet ... there
> is still something called free speech in this country ...
Not under the current administration.
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>
>> really lived and all the miracles that God did are there also ...
>
>have come up with the theory that Moses didn't witness miracles, he was
>simply high on some hallucinogenic drugs and and just imagined those
>miracles.
>
>Say they invent time travel next year. Nothing would then prevent Tom
>Green or Jim Carey to travel back to year 00 along with a few hollywood
>special efects experts and then just act out what is described in the
>bible (thus causing the bible to be written by people who would have
>witnessed Tom Green's antics).
There is probably a Sci-Fi book with exactly that premise but the closest I'm
aware of is
The Technicolor Time Machine by Harry Harrison
in which a struggling film company uses a time machine to save money on sets
and actors when make a film of the first viking voyage to America.
Mark Daniel
Bob is (substantially) correct - again, see
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/7ff788c55f00b2c6
YHWH (the mountain-dwelling, desert deity of the Israelites, the god of
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [Exodus 3:15 http://bible.cc/exodus/3-15.htm]
and hence of all the major Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity
[Acts 3:13 http://bible.cc/acts/3-13.htm] and Islam) generally executes
his will vicariously and often (though by no means exclusively) using
transcendent beings.
Of course, while ultimate responsibility resides with the superior
deity, there is often some confusion as to who is the actual agent in
any particular instance. Sometimes Malach Adonai (or Malach Elohim),
sometimes YHYW, sometimes the Elohim themselves. Sometimes all
together, representing the divine, as in the following passage:
"The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst
of a bush... When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called
to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" ... I am the
God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of
Jacob."
[Exodus 3:2-6 http://bible.cc/exodus/3-2.htm]
Of course there is no doubt that YHWH is the progenitor.
"About midnight I am going out into the midst of Egypt, and all the
firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of the
Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl
who is behind the millstones; all the firstborn of the cattle as well."
[Exodus 11:4 http://bible.cc/exodus/11-4.htm]
Some of the children would have been below the age of consent (knowledge
of good and evil), twelve years by tradition (also by recent concession
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/e56644658146b4e7), and in
modern milspeak would have been 'collateral damage'.
(185,000) "Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp
of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when
they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses."
[Isaiah 37:36 http://bible.cc/isaiah/37-36.htm]
Transcendent beings do not always kill directly. Sometimes they just
deliver an effective biological agent (WMD?):
(70,000) "So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning
until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from
Dan to Beersheba died."
Saddam (or Chemical Ali, et al) - are these precedent?
[2 Samuel 24:15 http://bible.cc/2_samuel/24-15.htm]
YHWH is occasionally dismayed by the carnage and changes his mind:
"When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it,
the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed
the people, "It is enough! Now relax your hand!""
[2 Samuel 24:16 http://bible.cc/2_samuel/24-16.htm]
YHWH is not cogniscent (or at least not appreciative) of good intentions.
"...Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the
oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah,
and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there"
[2 Samuel 6:6-7 http://bible.cc/2_samuel/6-6.htm]
But back to the primary thesis.
"For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the
Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and
the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them."
[Exodus 23:23 http://bible.cc/exodus/23-23.htm]
However, far more commonly the human rather than the transcendent have
been the instruments of YHWH's designs. Indeed:
"Cursed be the one who does the LORD's work negligently, And cursed be
the one who restrains his sword from blood."
[Jeremiah 48:10 http://bible.cc/jeremiah/48-10.htm]
Ancient Judaic lore is replete with precedent.
"and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat
them, then you shall utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant
with them, nor show mercy unto them"
[Deuteronomy 7:2 http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/7-2.htm]
"They utterly destroyed everything in the city, both man and woman,
young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword."
[Joshua 6:21 http://bible.cc/joshua/6-21.htm]
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
woman who has known man intimately."
[Numbers 31:17 http://bible.cc/numbers/31-17.htm]
"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."
[Numbers 31:18 http://bible.cc/numbers/31-18.htm]
(Not quite in the league of what's currently being offered but ...)
"A maiden, two maidens for every warrior;"
[Judges 5:30 http://bible.cc/judges/5-30.htm]
"And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead 400 young virgins
who had not known a man by lying with him; and they brought them to the
camp at Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan."
[Judges 21:12 http://bible.cc/judges/21-12.htm]
And not only are foreigners (non-Israelites, Arabs) visited by his
messengers. Those within the camp were subject to the agents of YHWH
too. Forced conversion:
"...whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to
death, whether small or great, man or woman."
[2 Chronicles 15:13-http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/15-13.htm]
"But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him
and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. Utterly
slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, ... So
they started with the elders who were before the temple. And He said to
them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!"
Thus they went out and struck down the people in the city."
Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSS) must have been unknown amongst the
(better debriefed or more inclined) combatants in these early Israelite
armed forces.
[Ezekiel 9:5-7 http://bible.cc/ezekiel/9-5.htm]
"Then the LORD spoke to Moses saying ... 'Moreover, the one who
blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the
congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native,
when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.'"
[Leviticus 24:13-16 http://bible.cc/leviticus/24-11.htm]
"if there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely
be put to death"
[Exodus 21:15 http://bible.cc/exodus/21-15.htm]
(Whence John Edward? ...)
"Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put
to death."
[Leviticus 20:27 http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-27.htm]
(Whence - well, name just about any politician or tele-evangelist ...)
"If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who
commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the
adulteress shall surely be put to death."
[Leviticus 20:10 http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-10.htm]
Of course it's worse if Dad happens to be a clergyman.
"Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry,
she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire."
[Leviticus 21:9 http://bible.cc/leviticus/21-9.htm]
"[if] the girl was not found a virgin [on her wedding night] then they
shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the
men of her city shall stone her to death"
[Deuteronomy 22:20-21 http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-20.htm]
"they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day ... Then the LORD
said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the
congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.""
[Numbers 15:32-35 http://bible.cc/numbers/15-32.htm]
(And of course this old chestnut:)
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman,
both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put
to death."
[Leviticus 20:13 http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-13.htm]
Of course the Judaic (and Christian) scriptures are relatively
voluminous and this represents but a small sample of what could be
cited. The 'certain circumstances' were fairly wide-ranging.
--
In childhood our credulity serves us well. It helps us to pack, with
extraordinary rapidity, our skulls full of the wisdom of our parents and
our ancestors. But if we don't grow out of it in the fullness of time,
our ... nature makes us a sitting target for astrologers, mediums,
gurus, evangelists, and quacks. We need to replace the automatic
credulity of childhood with the constructive skepticism of adult science.
[Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow]
ultr...@gmail.com
>
yes, Moses and the Israelites were under the old law ...
they had the ten commandments, and God dwelt among them ...
sin was purged out of the nation ... if you broke a commandment, you
were stoned ... that is because sin is serious to God, and with
them sinning while He was right amongst them where they saw
all the miracles,
but the old law passed away when Christ died on the cross for
those sins ... remember when Mary Magdelene was brought
before Jesus to be stoned, He said that let him without sin
cast the first stone ... He was changing things ...
but the Catholic church I believe carries things too far when
they want to do away with the death penalty ...
remember the thieves on the cross with Jesus ... the one
on the right repented and Christ said today you shall be
with me in paradise, but he did not say alright, get this guy
down from here because he has repented ... notice when
the thief on the left did not repent, the one on the right said
before Christ forgave him that they were getting punished
because of their sins ...
so Christ did not excuse a thief from the death penalty
physically, but He did excuse him spiritually ...
so if capital punishment was wrong, why didn't Christ
stop it ... because He left it still as a determent in society
to stop evil ...
make sense you capital punishment critics?
Andrew
Most Muslims have exactly the same view about those who kill in the
name of Islam, namely that they are not true Muslims.
Unfortunately there are still people who think of themselves as
Muslims and commit crimes in the name of Islam, just the same as
Catholic IRA or the Protestant UDA or the Catholics in France killing
the Huguenots. Etc etc.
Regards
Andrew
AEF
Well, Bob. I haven't heard from you. What was that you were saying
about "liberals" not willing to answer your points (or something like
that)?
AEF
AEF
Nope. There was a story on 60 Minutes this week about an innocent
person who spent I think 26 years in prison for murder as another
prisoner confessed to the crime. He is *still* in prison. With capital
punishment we would have executed an innocent man. You like doing that
Bob? and it's not just he. Other prisoners have been exonerated
through DNA evidence. Had the death penalty been in effect yet more
innocent people would have been put to death by the state.
Also, capital punishment is too expensive. Life in prison without
parole is better. If later a mistake was found, you can at least
release the person. If the person was executed, what are you going to
do. Oh, I forgot. He's in heaven, right? So if innocent people go to
heaven when they die, why is murder a sin? It's because deep down,
even people like you know better.
And I'm still waiting for your response to my email, so don't whine
about others doing the same to you.
AEF
bradhamilton
> Well, Bob. I haven't heard from you. What was that you were saying
> about "liberals" not willing to answer your points (or something like
> that)?
He's a troll. He never answers from that (or any other) email address.
Please don't feed the trolls (PDFTT!)
AEF
So if he really doesn't believe what he's writing, what it the
motivation?
He seems to be an evangelist to me, but maybe you're right. I can't
see going
through such efforts just to get a long thread like this going, but
I'm not him.
But discussions like this are useful for me and others to be forced to
think about these things and construct arguments about them. Like when
Einstein kept pestering Bohr et al. about the uncertainty principle
and "spooky action at a distance" and such. Bohr acknowledged that it
was useful to progress with QM and respected Einstein greatly and
considered him his friend.
AEF
OK.
Simon Clubley
I would advise you not to waste your time trying to contact Bob privately.
I've tried communicating with him in email (because COV is not the right
place to have these conversations) and it either bounces or is ignored.
I get the distinct impression that he's not interested in spending time
talking privately, but just wants to spout his evangelical rants in a
public forum in order to reach as many people as possible and has total
disregard for whether that forum's the right place to have such a
discussion.
I'm also not impressed that he uses anonymous email addresses or email
addresses that bounce in order to post those rants; if these evangelical
viewpoints are what he truly believes, then why doesn't he sign his
name to them ?
Bob, once again, you are free to followup in email if you wish, but you
will have to despam the email address below.
Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world
ultr...@gmail.com
are you dense? You execute the killers where there
is no doubt ...
ultr...@gmail.com
(Simon Clubley) wrote:
I do not follow up thru emails ... whatever you or I have
to be said can be said right here in public ... this is a
forum and that is what it is for ... discussion ...
AEF
>
> > How do you know there even is "God"?
>
> look at all the evidence! start with the the accounts of the
> how about the shroud of turin?
>
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38030
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/shroud_of_turin_accidentally
AEF
[...]
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>On Mar 12, 7:46 pm, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>is no doubt ...
Well the presumption of innocence means that they need to have been proved
guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
That hasn't stopped miscarriages of justice from occurring see for instance
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/jan/15/ukcrime.markoliver
fortunately the Death Penalty for murder was abolished in Britain in 1965
and hence only the first of the cases mentioned in that article
- that of Derek Bentley - resulted in him being hung.
(This was the cumulation of over a century of reform starting in 1808 when the
death penalty was abolished for pickpockets and lesser offenders.
For a history of UK Capital punishment see
http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/capitalhist.htm
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_Kingdom
As a Christian Country we seemed to want to send our fellow citizens to God's
immediate judgement for almost any offence.
)
AEF
Fine. Since I actually bothered to type up a response, I'll post it
here.
On Mar 9, 5:20 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Mar 7, 1:15 pm, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> > How do you know there even is "God"?
>
> look at all the evidence! start with the the
accounts of the
> apostles in the bible ... they all died for Him ...
look at all
> the Christians buried in the catacombs in Rome ...
these
> people all experienced something they were willing
to die
> for ... they were not all nuts ...
How do you any of that accurately reflects what
happened? Other religions have their own books and
people who defend them. Why is this one any different?
>
> next, Mount Sinai has been found and proves that
Moses
> really lived and all the miracles that God did are
there also ...
I don't believe Mt. Sinai has been found. This is a
classic case of deciding ahead of time what's true and
cherry picking data to "prove" it. Science doesn't
progress that way. As Feynman said, you can be biased
but not absolutely certain "because if your bias is
wrong a perpetual accumulation of experiments will
perpetually annoy you until they cannot be disregarded
any longer" (see the last paragraph of Chapter 6 of
The Character of Physical Law).
> they even found chariot wheels dated to that period
at the
> crossing site ... just go to youtube and search on
Mount
> Siani Saudi Arabia ... all the videos are there ...
watch them
> prove the bible is not stories but history ... ever
read the
> jewish historian Josephus, he confirms much of it
...
The finding of some chariot wheels proves the Bible is
correct? ... Please. Many other explanations are more likely.
>
> ever read Revelation or Daniel or other prophecies
in the bible?
No, but I've heard that all these prophecies are so vague
that almost any outcome would satisfy them.
> they are coming true every day ...
See above.
>
> how about the shroud of turin?
How does this prove anything?
[See my recent post referencing The Onion.]
>
> God has given you His Son, the prophets, historical
artifacts
> and finds, and even science is confirming
intelligent design ...
Science is NOT confirming intelligent design. There is
an enormous body of evidence against it, some of which
has already been posted.
> they have reversed the gene pool and found we all
came from
> the same mother and father ... Adam and Eve ring a
bell?
Hardly proof. Other scenarios are consistent with
this. In fact, there's a problem already on page 1 of
the Bible. How could the water be above the firmamanet
yet the firmament contains the "lights"? Even the
ancients could see the clouds cover the "lights". How
could there be such a big mistake already on page 1?
In fact, Genesis is similar to Babylonian mythology --
well at least some of it. The Israelites were exiled
in Babylonia. Put 2 and 2 together.
>
>
>
> > How do you know?
>
> because He said so!
Did you hear Him? Or, how do you know? if you want to
give worthless answers.
>
>
>
> > > YOU decide where
>
> > > you will spend eternity ...
>
> > It's called the grave. I don't believe there is an
afterlife. Consider
> > an infant, or fetus, or embryo. What are they like
in the afterlife?
> > Is an embryo still an embryo? If not, how does it
work? How does an
> > embryo repent, for example? There's more, but I'll
start with this.
>
> every person has a soul, adult child baby or embryo
...
Yeah, people would like to believe that, but I think
the mind is simply a manifestation of the brain. Look
how much various physical and chemical processes
affect the mind: alocohol, other drugs, injuries,
lobotomy.
>
> the age of accountability is 12 ... you are not held
accountable
> for your sins until that time ... that is what bar
mitzvahs
> celebrate ...
Bar Mitzvahs occur at age 13, not 12.
Well, if all these things are true, then why is it
such a terrible thing when people are killed? When
children are killed? And abortion? If aborted fetuses
get a straight ticket to heaven, then what's the
problem with abortion?
I once saw some video interviews of various people,
including atheists. One of them said -- I can't
remember who -- that most people who say they believe
in God certainly don't act like it. I think he's
right. People deep down know that a murder is a
terrible thing, even though they say that person has
gone to heaven. A former co-worker complained that I
was eating a bagel during Passover. I asked him why he
doesn't observe the Sabbath, something far more
important than keeping kosher. He said he has to have
a job. So he puts his job over what he claims are
orders from the Creator. This is just one more
example. There are many others.
This whole heaven and hell bit seems to me just a
made-up thing to try to get people to behave. Genesis
looks like an effort to explain why the world is the
way it is. The Devil is the explanation for evil, or a
personification of it.
Anyway, enough for now.
AEF
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
. snip
.
>> they have reversed the gene pool and found we all
>came from
>> the same mother and father ... Adam and Eve ring a
>bell?
>
I answered this almost exactly a year ago see
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/e2124447a02013e4
Mitochondrial Eve was not the only woman alive at that time and Y chromosonal
Adam was not the only man alive when he lived.
Further they did NOT live at the same time !!! Mitochondrial Eve is estimated
to have lived 140,000 years ago whereas Y chromosonal Adam is estimated to have
lived 60,000 years ago. They have nothing whatsoever to do with Adam and Eve
as depicted in Genesis.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
>Hardly proof. Other scenarios are consistent with
>this. In fact, there's a problem already on page 1 of
>the Bible. How could the water be above the firmamanet
>yet the firmament contains the "lights"? Even the
>ancients could see the clouds cover the "lights". How
>could there be such a big mistake already on page 1?
>In fact, Genesis is similar to Babylonian mythology --
>well at least some of it. The Israelites were exiled
>in Babylonia. Put 2 and 2 together.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > How do you know?
>>
>> because He said so!
>
>Did you hear Him? Or, how do you know? if you want to
>give worthless answers.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > > YOU decide where
>>
>> > > you will spend eternity ...
>>
>> > It's called the grave. I don't believe there is an
>afterlife. Consider
>> > an infant, or fetus, or embryo. What are they like
>in the afterlife?
>> > Is an embryo still an embryo? If not, how does it
>work? How does an
>> > embryo repent, for example? There's more, but I'll
>start with this.
>>
>> every person has a soul, adult child baby or embryo
>....
David Turner, Island Computers
And noone ever dies in the USA from "neglect" in the hospitals.
--
David B Turner
=============================================
Island Computers US Corp
PO Box 86
Tybee GA 31328
Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251
Email: dtu...@islandco.com
International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749
Fax: 912 786 8505
Web: www.islandco.com
=============================================
<ultr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bc68f831-339d-4173...@d62g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
ultr...@gmail.com
<dtur...@islandco.com> wrote:
> Right
> And noone ever dies in the USA from "neglect" in the hospitals.
>
> --
> David B Turner
>
> =============================================
>
> Island Computers US Corp
> PO Box 86
> Tybee GA 31328
>
> Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251
>
> news:bc68f831-339d-4173...@d62g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > here is a glance of things to come if Hillary or Obama implement
> > their healthcare plan ... the bbc did not report it but a teen died
> > while waiting on an ambulance that was setting at the hospital
> > with a patient inside because the hospitals were full and did not
> > want to violate a government mandate of a 4 hour must treat law.
>
> > Canada people coming here ... England people that have the money
> > flying to India to have surgery ...
>
> > don't worry, those rich liberal Harvard grads will be able to afford
> > it while those they claim to want to help will be dying waiting for
> > an ambulance ...
>
> > that what socialism does, it ruins a country ...
>
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7249514.stm
at least they die in a hospital and not in an ambulance ...
DrSlinky
Yes, the die in the hospital waiting room, filling out page after page
of insurance forms.
Richard B. Gilbert
My experience, fortunately limited, suggests that patients are seen in
order of apparent severity. If you walk in, dripping sweat, white as a
sheet, and complaining of chest pains, you will be wired up to an EKG in
about sixty seconds.
If, OTOH, you walk in complaining of seeing "blue flashes" in your left
eye, you may sit around for hours before being seen. It was a "vitreous
detachment", alarming to the patient but harmless.
VAXman-
>{...snip...}
>My experience, fortunately limited, suggests that patients are seen in
>order of apparent severity. If you walk in, dripping sweat, white as a
>sheet, and complaining of chest pains, you will be wired up to an EKG in
>about sixty seconds.
I haven't had medical insurance since I worked for DREN/ET&DL. I've not
had any issues when I faced a similar situation... twice.
>If, OTOH, you walk in complaining of seeing "blue flashes" in your left
>eye, you may sit around for hours before being seen. It was a "vitreous
>detachment", alarming to the patient but harmless.
I was hit in the head by a paving brick (don't ask) which left a rather
nasty gash in my scalp. I walked into the ER with a huge wad of rather
ensanguine paper toweling. I was asked what happened and I said I was
hit in the head with a paver. I was immediately rushed in to the ER for
several staples. Now I know what it feels like to be a stack of reports.
I made the mistake telling them I was on 'rat poison' (Coumadin/Warfarin)
and I was then treated to a CAT scan for inter-cranial internal hemorrag-
ing. Oh, the bills for that and the vitamin K shots were more stupefying
than the hit with the brick. I save the ER money now and buy super glue
for use with future severe lacerations like one I recently experienced on
my foot. Tube of super glue -- $2.00 ER visit, easily $2K+.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"