collection of Erik Naggum's writings?
Xah Lee
least all his newsgroup writings.
in a sense it is all in newsgroup archives, but am thinking perhaps
someone would collect them so it's easier to access?
Also, erik's own website
http://naggum.no/
am not sure how much info he has on his website. (have browsed it over
the years, it appears to me not many, but anyway.)
i'm hoping, perhaps someone, or perhaps his family, friends, would
want to do this, of collecting all his writings in one place?
my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his
postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At
least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings
in one place.
i don't know who's Erik's legal benefactor that inherits all his
belongs... don't know if this person knows about computing. If not, i
could help out to kinda sort them or put them online, and am sure many
Erik's friends would be willing to help on this.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
Marek Kubica
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his
> postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At
> least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings
> in one place.
Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
regards,
Marek
Xah Lee
google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or
last year.
if you search Erik Naggum, or by 2 of his widely known email
variations, or any parameter in google search, and save all result
pages, i'd guess less than 50% of his posts turns up.
asides from missing posts or the problem of finding them, it is also
inconvenient to use.
it'd be better if there's a website that collects all his writings.
e.g. many socially important people has such website, e.g. people done
that for Edsger Dijkstra, Bertrand Russell, Emily Dickinson... etc.
Erik may not have such status, but still, am guessing many people in
the lisp community would like to see his collected rants. I certainly
would.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
On Jul 9, 7:24 am, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> in a sense it is all in newsgroup archives, but am thinking perhaps
> someone would collect them so it's easier to access?
>
> Also, erik's own websitehttp://naggum.no/
>
> am not sure how much info he has on his website. (have browsed it over
> the years, it appears to me not many, but anyway.)
>
> i'm hoping, perhaps someone, or perhaps his family, friends, would
> want to do this, of collecting all his writings in one place?
>
> my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his
> postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At
> least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings
> in one place.
>
Ron Garret
<9d1f537a-1cd9-4ec0...@l35g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 12:18 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his
> > > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At
> > > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings
> > > in one place.
> >
> > Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
>
> google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or
> last year.
http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/07/plea-to-powers-that-be-at-google.html
rg
Ron Garret
<299ad9bb-7802-4cae...@y4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 12:18 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > my guess is that Erik probably have merticulously saved all his
> > > postings himself. My guess is that he wouldn't mind to share them. At
> > > least, it shouldn't be a problem to republish all his public postings
> > > in one place.
> >
> > Google Groups has a record of his posts, how about this?
>
> google group search function is pretty broken since about this year or
> last year.
http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/07/plea-to-powers-that-be-at-google.html
rg
William F Hammond
> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> in a sense it is all in newsgroup archives, but am thinking perhaps
> someone would collect them so it's easier to access?
Yes, I agree that this would be a good thing.
-- Bill
Nicolas Neuss
> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> in a sense it is all in newsgroup archives, but am thinking perhaps
> someone would collect them so it's easier to access?
Hi,
I just learned (in a mail of Franz' tech corner) that Zach Beane has
collected a lot of them:
http://xach.livejournal.com/221433.html
Thanks, Zach! I'll think I'll (re)read one a day.
(Today, it was <http://www.well.com/user/nocebo/> which I didn't know.
Very nice.)
Nicolas
Xah Lee
wrote:
Zach's site collects less than 100 of Erik's posts. They are less that
0.1% of Erik's public posts. Zach's collection is great for a glimps
of some of Erik's better tech rants.
I'm hoping this thread gets passed around to those close to Erik.
For those of you who are really interested to see such comprehensive
collection, perhaps it should be made known publically. Here, or on
your blog etc.
Also, am pretty sure some old timer must have archived the entire
comp.lang.lisp during the time he's reading. Perhaps such person would
have a interest to make it public? With that, it's then very easy to
filter and form a collection of all Erik's posts, at least for
comp.lang.lisp. (if you know such person candidate, please let them
know about this)
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
fft1976
of Lee's rants (translated into modern English, of course). He is more
edgy. Nagum's rants were too long and unoriginal. Who's got time to
read that? Also, it's better to create these rant collections, while
someone is still alive, so they can make revisions and add comments.
What do you think, Xa?
Btw, did RMS write anything on the occasion of Erik's death? I can't
find it. I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
Nicolas Neuss
> Zach's site collects less than 100 of Erik's posts. They are less that
> 0.1% of Erik's public posts. Zach's collection is great for a glimps
> of some of Erik's better tech rants.
Sorry for writing "a lot of Erik's posts". I noticed this mistake after I
sent my post. (Nevertheless, I think that Zach's collection could be a
good start.)
> I'm hoping this thread gets passed around to those close to Erik.
>
> For those of you who are really interested to see such comprehensive
> collection, perhaps it should be made known publically. Here, or on
> your blog etc.
>
> Also, am pretty sure some old timer must have archived the entire
> comp.lang.lisp during the time he's reading. Perhaps such person would
> have a interest to make it public?
That would be wonderful, but I am not sure if such a person exists. I
myself have archived what interested me (including all of Erik's posts)
since the second half of 2000. However, for completeness, it would be
better to have really all the posts, even those who got their value only by
Erik or someone else responding cleverly to them.
> With that, it's then very easy to filter and form a collection of all
> Erik's posts, at least for comp.lang.lisp. (if you know such person
> candidate, please let them know about this)
Maybe Kent Pitman? Or Franz Inc.?
Nicolas
Miles Bader
> I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
That's silly. Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically
in the noise.
His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs
over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at
worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his pushing
for things like making the multi-byte encoding of buffers relatively
opaque was a good thing, and helped make Emacs better.
-Miles
--
Neighbor, n. One whom we are commanded to love as ourselves, and who does all
he knows how to make us disobedient.
Zach Beane
> On Jul 16, 1:21 am, Nicolas Neuss <lastn...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de>
> wrote:
>> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
>> > least all his newsgroup writings.
>>
>> > in a sense it is all in newsgroup archives, but am thinking perhaps
>> > someone would collect them so it's easier to access?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just learned (in a mail of Franz' tech corner) that Zach Beane has
>> collected a lot of them:
>>
>> http://xach.livejournal.com/221433.html
>>
>> Thanks, Zach! I'll think I'll (re)read one a day.
>>
>> (Today, it was <http://www.well.com/user/nocebo/> which I didn't know.
>> Very nice.)
>>
>> Nicolas
>
> Zach's site collects less than 100 of Erik's posts. They are less that
> 0.1% of Erik's public posts. Zach's collection is great for a glimps
> of some of Erik's better tech rants.
Thanks. I realize that it is a very small subset of Erik's output. I
used my delicious.com bookmark list to put it together.
Since that post, I have gone back and tried to find more interesting
articles to bookmark. You can see some of them by going here:
http://delicious.com/xach/naggum
The list is growing daily.
Google Groups search is often broken, and who knows what its future as a
service holds. I would like to not only find links to Google Groups
articles, but keep a local archive as well. I haven't done that yet,
though.
Zach
netsettler
wrote:
> > With that, it's then very easy to filter and form a collection of all
> > Erik's posts, at least for comp.lang.lisp. (if you know such person
> > candidate, please let them know about this)
>
> Maybe Kent Pitman? Or Franz Inc.?
I've assumed that proper historical record-keeping is already being
done by organizations that maintain and sell usenet archives and/or by
Google. I don't maintain a history of the Lisp newsgroup. It's one
reason I post to this group, in fact; the knowledge that it won't fill
my disk.
And I thought the whole point of such public records is that they
already have good filtering tools, such as:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en&q=
For example, one might do:
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=group%3Acomp.lang.lisp+author%3A%22Erik+Naggum%22&sitesearch=
I have personal interchanges with Erik, one or two of which I might
publish at some point. (The one I've identified so far that is the
most likely candidate is not Lisp-related, incidentally. It's a
discussion of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.)
fft1976
> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes:
> > I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
>
> That's silly. Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically
> in the noise.
>
> His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
>
> I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs
> over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at
> worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his
I didn't realize that about him. Got a link with that?
Isn't it anti-racist to want support for non-ASCII characters?
David Kastrup
> On Jul 17, 2:23�am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > I hear Emacs would be crap if it weren't for Erik patches.
>>
>> That's silly. �Erik made very few actual changes to Emacs -- basically
>> in the noise.
>>
>> His most valuable contribution was probably complaining a lot.
>>
>> I'm quite serious about that -- he did a lot of complaining about Emacs
>> over the years, and while a lot of his complaints were stupid (and at
>> worst, stupid, racist, and downright conspiracy-freakish), his
>
> I didn't realize that about him. Got a link with that?
>
> Isn't it anti-racist to want support for non-ASCII characters?
Norwegians are a diacritic race (to use your terminology). So it was
merely selfish.
--
David Kastrup
fft1976
I'm not the one who pointed out Erik's racism.
Ron Garret
<429214f6-1898-4a41...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> least all his newsgroup writings.
I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of
about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB.
I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear
out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that
they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a
torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well
if anyone is interested.)
I've done some preliminary analysis of the data. It's a little tricky
because it's hard to separate out original text from quotes, but here
are the numbers I've come up with so far: Erik wrote 5144 articles
comprising a little over 1.3 million words, including about 15,000
unique words, not including hapax-legomena (of which there are about
another 15,000, but a lot of those look like code snippets). To put
these numbers in perspective, the King James Bible is only 789,634
words, about 12,000 distinct words including about 4,000 hapax legomana
[1].
rg
---
[1]
http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/02/fun-with-numerology-and-king-james.htm
l
Kenneth Tilton
Great statistics. They tell us a lot about you, a posthumous
confirmation of everything Erik said: you have not seen the enemy, but
they is you.
The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in
terms of denigrating him. Usually in flame wars recommendations to seek
help are tired cliches -- how do we then make that recommendation in
earnest?
If it helps, all we see is your self-loathing. Move on, dude. Let it go.
hth,kt
Ron Garret
Ron Garret <rNOS...@flownet.com> wrote:
> In article
> <429214f6-1898-4a41...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> > least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of
> about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB.
> I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear
> out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that
> they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a
> torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well
> if anyone is interested.)
Eli Barzilay has generously agreed to host the files. Here are the
links:
http://barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.gz [185mb]
http://barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.bz2 [131mb]
http://barzilay.org/misc/cls.txt.gz [58mb]
http://barzilay.org/misc/cls.txt.bz2 [43mb]
rg
Kenneth Tilton
> Hi Kenneth,
>
> * Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in
>> terms of denigrating him.
>
> the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we do
> not need to guess what you mean.
If you knew the history you would not have to guess. If you do not know
the history learn it so you can keep up.
kt
fft1976
filestore.de> wrote:
> Hi Kenneth,
>
> * Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth in
> > terms of denigrating him.
>
> the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we do
> not need to guess what you mean.
You see, Erik wrote an insane amount of material on Usenet (mostly
flames and meta-flames), but he left very little verifiable code
behind.
Apparently, his biggest contributions were to Emacs, but even those
were "in the noise" (quoting Miles).
If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with
Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll
never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing
would be different.
fft1976
What I'm trying to say is that pointing out how much Erik wrote (twice
the size of the bible) is a sore spot to some.
Ron Garret
Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
You can start here if you like:
http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/06/my-dinner-with-erik.html
I'm only posting this link because Kenny decided to dredge this up, and
since all he's offering up is innuendo it falls to me to fill the void
with actual facts. But I would really just as soon not get into this.
If you feel the need to comment on this I request that you do it on my
blog, not here on C.L.L.
rg
Ron Garret
Ron Garret <rNOS...@flownet.com> wrote:
Someone asked me privately if I have any plans to provide updates to
these archives. The answer is no. The process of getting these was
quite time consuming, and I have other fish to fry. If there is a
desire to keep these archives up to date someone else is going to have
to pick up the baton.
rg
Xah Lee
> In article <rNOSPAMon-F7E803.17045024072...@news.albasani.net>,
> Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> > > least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> > I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of
> > about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB.
> > I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear
> > out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that
> > they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a
> > torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well
> > if anyone is interested.)
>
> Eli Barzilay has generously agreed to host the files. Here are the
> links:
>
> http://barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.gz [185mb]
> http://barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.bz2[131mb]
> http://barzilay.org/misc/cls.txt.gz [58mb]
> http://barzilay.org/misc/cls.txt.bz2[43mb]
>
> rg
Hi Ron,
Thanks for the archive. & thanks Eli Barzilay.
Xah
Ron Garret
<eb6b5fca-4301-4b86...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
fft1976 <fft...@gmail.com> wrote:
That Erik wrote as much as he did is simply a fact. If you find facts
troublesome, I suggest you engage in some of the introspection that Erik
often urged people to undertake.
FWIW, several people have been even more prolific than Erik, at least in
terms of article count:
sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Naggum%';
5144
sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Pitman%';
5470
But the all time winner by a wide margin is... (drumroll, maestro, if
you please...):
sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Tilton%';
8333
Yessirree, it's Kenny "don't bother me with facts" Tilton! No wonder he
has a bee in his bonnet about this.
(For the record, my own total is 3320. I'm a dilettante next to Kenny.)
rg
fft1976
I'm just explaining Kenny's reaction to Christoph.
> FWIW, several people have been even more prolific than Erik, at least in
> terms of article count:
>
> sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Naggum%';
> 5144
>
> sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Pitman%';
> 5470
>
> But the all time winner by a wide margin is... (drumroll, maestro, if
> you please...):
>
> sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Tilton%';
> 8333
>
> Yessirree, it's Kenny "don't bother me with facts" Tilton! No wonder he
> has a bee in his bonnet about this.
>
> (For the record, my own total is 3320. I'm a dilettante next to Kenny.)
>
> rg
I read your essay, by the way. I find it strange that you say that CLL
was such an oasis of brotherly love in the 90s, and yet you waited 5
years to acknowledge Erik's presence. I'm not saying it's wrong, just
that one thing does not agree with the other.
Btw, "Kenny refused to speak to me at the conference" LOL WUT? You
guys are cracking me up. Kenny has this jolly troll persona, but it
seems that he's taking it all very personally.
I wonder who eventually convinced Erik to start capitalizing his
sentences?
Nicolas Neuss
> In article
> <429214f6-1898-4a41...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
>> least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of
> about a week ago. It's big, a 200MB gzip that expands to nearly 700MB.
> I can make this available for the community, but I don't want to wear
> out my welcome at my ISP. If anyone has a server with a fat pipe that
> they are willing to donate to the cause, or know how to set up a
> torrent, please contact me by email. (I have comp.lang.scheme as well
> if anyone is interested.)
That's great! Thank you very much, Ron! And thanks also to Google. (Did
you simply ask them for the archive?)
Nicolas
Rainer Joswig
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> > least all his newsgroup writings.
>
> I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of
> about a week ago.
how about net.lang.lisp ?
Robert Uhl
>
> If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with
> Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll
> never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing
> would be different.
I think he spent most of his time writing proprietary code which has
remained locked in its tower. Yet another reason why free software is
so much better for society at large and for posterity.
--
A friend told me about an evening he spent drinking beer and discussing
language features to hack into C++ with a group that included Bjarne
Stroustrup. My reaction was, 'It all makes sense now. C++ looks exactly
like a language designed by drunk people in a bar.' --Steve VanDevender
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jul 24, 11:41 pm, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> Btw, "Kenny refused to speak to me at the conference" LOL WUT?
Ron misremembers and a quick check of the cll archives in the week or
two after that conference will refresh his memory because I did explain
here our brief interaction: I complimented Erann (in my recounting of
the encounter on cll) for his consistency in being the same ridiculous
asshole in person as he is on Usenet.
If the encounter was brief, it was only because I was consistent in
having as little interest in him in person as I do on line.
This can easily be misremembered as refusing to talk, but it was more
refusing to talk further after Erann/Ron proved so disappointing. One
always comes away from these conferences wishing one had more time to
speak to more people so triage is required and one outburst of flamage
from Erann was enough for me to identify a lost cause.
kt
Ron Garret
<533bd839-9f9c-4611...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Rainer Joswig <jos...@lisp.de> wrote:
Heh, forgot all about that. I can't get it through the same channel
that I used for the cll archive (I had to push my luck just to get cll
and cls) but there are only 991 articles so I should be able to scrape
it. Give me a day or two.
I note with grim irony that the first ever message to n.l.l. (which
later became c.l.l.) was posted in March of 1982 by John Foderaro:
http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.lisp/msg/1b8807baa40c58d6
Nineteen years later, in 2001, John would be driven from cll, the
newsgroup he helped to found, by Erik Naggum.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/1f9b7e
9395354320/71c1d6c6f76ecd05?#71c1d6c6f76ecd05
which Erik considered an accomplishment:
> Would you mind if I took credit for this by arguing that you ran away
> with you tail between your legs when you were simply asked to provide
> references for your increasingly psychotic claims and prove all the
> insane crap you claim about other people?
I submit that anyone wanting to make their own assessment of Erik's net
value to the Lisp community can gain some valuable perspective by
looking at the contributions that John has made over the years.
rg
Ron Garret
Nicolas Neuss <last...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote:
My pleasure.
> And thanks also to Google. (Did you simply ask them for the archive?)
It wasn't so "simple" -- it took several weeks. Just finding out who
would be the right person to ask was not easy. But yes, that's how I
got it.
rg
Ron Garret
<e329d728-9aac-44e7...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
fft1976 <fft...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 11:41嚙緘m, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <eb6b5fca-4301-4b86-b07a-db6876bbc...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > 嚙篆ft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 24, 10:20嚙緘m, fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 24, 8:43嚙緘m, Christoph Conrad <spamcrunc...@digital-
> >
> > > > filestore.de> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Kenneth,
> >
> > > > > * Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > The man is gone and you are still trying to salvage your self-worth
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > terms of denigrating him.
> >
> > > > > What especially did offend you? I can't find anything "denigrating"
> > > > > in
> > > > > the article. Please be more specific when blaming someone, so that we
> > > > > do
> > > > > not need to guess what you mean.
> >
> > > > You see, Erik wrote an insane amount of material on Usenet (mostly
> > > > flames and meta-flames), but he left very little verifiable code
> > > > behind.
> >
> > > > Apparently, his biggest contributions were to Emacs, but even those
> > > > were "in the noise" (quoting Miles).
> >
> > > > If he had spent as much effort improving things (like Rick did with
> > > > Clojure, for example) as he did ranting and flaming... Well, we'll
> > > > never know if Erik was any good at actual coding, so maybe nothing
> > > > would be different.
> >
> > > What I'm trying to say is that pointing out how much Erik wrote (twice
> > > the size of the bible) is a sore spot to some.
> >
> > That Erik wrote as much as he did is simply a fact. 嚙瘢f you find facts
> > troublesome, I suggest you engage in some of the introspection that Erik
> > often urged people to undertake.
>
> I'm just explaining Kenny's reaction to Christoph.
>
> > FWIW, several people have been even more prolific than Erik, at least in
> > terms of article count:
> >
> > sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Naggum%';
> > 5144
> >
> > sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Pitman%';
> > 5470
> >
> > But the all time winner by a wide margin is... (drumroll, maestro, if
> > you please...):
> >
> > sqlite> select count(*) from comp_lang_lisp where author like '%Tilton%';
> > 8333
> >
> > Yessirree, it's Kenny "don't bother me with facts" Tilton! 嚙瞇o wonder he
> > has a bee in his bonnet about this.
> >
> > (For the record, my own total is 3320. 嚙瘢'm a dilettante next to Kenny.)
> >
> > rg
>
> I read your essay, by the way.
I presume you mean the one on my blog, yes? I would appreciate it if
you would post comments on that essay on my blog. These things tend to
spin wildly out of control here on cll. But just for the record:
> I find it strange that you say that CLL
> was such an oasis of brotherly love in the 90s, and yet you waited 5
> years to acknowledge Erik's presence. I'm not saying it's wrong, just
> that one thing does not agree with the other.
What I wrote was, "CLL fostered a kind of camaraderie that went beyond
its nominal scope." I think it is a gross mischaracterization to render
that as "an oasis of brotherly love."
If you want to know more about why I chose to interact with Erik the way
I did, please post a comment on my blog.
> Btw, "Kenny refused to speak to me at the conference" LOL WUT?
Laugh all you want, but it's true. I approached him, introduced myself,
and he literally turned his head and went back to whatever he was
working on. I was shocked.
> I wonder who eventually convinced Erik to start capitalizing his
> sentences?
That is indeed a question for the ages.
rg
Ron Garret
<e0e440bf-6d7d-4bd7...@v23g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome, Xah.
rg
A.L.
wrote:
>
>which Erik considered an accomplishment:
>
>> Would you mind if I took credit for this by arguing that you ran away
>> with you tail between your legs when you were simply asked to provide
>> references for your increasingly psychotic claims and prove all the
>> insane crap you claim about other people?
Is this whoevers "contribution to Lisp"?...
A.L.
Ron Garret
Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One
> always comes away from these conferences wishing one had more time to
> speak to more people so triage is required
When I approached you, you were sitting by yourself in a room full of
people. You are, of course, perfectly within your rights to decide that
you don't want to talk to me. But don't pretend that you made that
decision for want of time.
rg
Kenneth Tilton
No, you were in the stage leftmost aisle, we were both standing, and
another was there. I said something and you responded with four
preposterous statements easily refuted. I recognized at once your usenet
strategy (since adopted by harrop) of scattershot stupidity which only
sucks the unwitting into producing a massive response which will be met
by an exponential explosion of itemwise stupidity and pretty soon went
in search of a life form not stuck in flame mode.
Why don't you check your cherished archive you are using to try
posthumously to attach your sad little wagon to Erik? Perhaps a report
from the time of the event will seem more convincing. Hey, you may even
be right.
btw, you remind me of a college mate who swears to this day I once
punched him in the stomach. Never happened, but I was badly obnoxious
towards the guy during one incident. Memory is like that.
kt
Nicolas Neuss
> I note with grim irony that the first ever message to n.l.l. (which
> later became c.l.l.) was posted in March of 1982 by John Foderaro:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.lisp/msg/1b8807baa40c58d6
>
> Nineteen years later, in 2001, John would be driven from cll, the
> newsgroup he helped to found, by Erik Naggum.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/1f9b7e
> 9395354320/71c1d6c6f76ecd05?#71c1d6c6f76ecd05
>
> which Erik considered an accomplishment:
> [...]
I think that more important for understanding the whole situation is the
post which (probably) caused John Foderaro to leave:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/b3cb074642e2dbc7
I think Erik has valid technical points here (which BTW also apply to the
special style of Paul Graham's anti-loop and anti-CLOS propaganda).
> I submit that anyone wanting to make their own assessment of Erik's net
> value to the Lisp community can gain some valuable perspective by
> looking at the contributions that John has made over the years.
Of course, it was not good that Foderaro left. But: Was it really
necessary for someone who should have some confidence in himself and his
position in the CL community to go away because of the above attack? He
should have simply ignored it.
Nicolas
Neil Van Dyke
flamewars all over Usenet. Please at least exclude comp.lang.scheme
from the list of performance venues. Thanks.
(Followups set to comp.lang.lisp)
Ron Garret
Nicolas Neuss <last...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote:
> Ron Garret <rNOS...@flownet.com> writes:
>
> > I note with grim irony that the first ever message to n.l.l. (which
> > later became c.l.l.) was posted in March of 1982 by John Foderaro:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.lisp/msg/1b8807baa40c58d6
> >
> > Nineteen years later, in 2001, John would be driven from cll, the
> > newsgroup he helped to found, by Erik Naggum.
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/1f9b7e
> > 9395354320/71c1d6c6f76ecd05?#71c1d6c6f76ecd05
> >
> > which Erik considered an accomplishment:
> > [...]
>
> I think that more important for understanding the whole situation is the
> post which (probably) caused John Foderaro to leave:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/b3cb074642e2dbc7
>
> I think Erik has valid technical points here (which BTW also apply to the
> special style of Paul Graham's anti-loop and anti-CLOS propaganda).
That may well be, but unfortunately whatever valid technical points he
may have are overshadowed by the tone set in his opening paragraph:
> There is only one document on Lisp on the whole of the World Wide Web
> that makes me _not_ want to use Common Lisp. I think that document says
> much more about the religious fervor and irrationality of a supposed
> "personal taste" which shows disregard and disrespect for every other
> Common Lisp programmer on the planet than any concern for good code. I
> happen to *like* Common Lisp just the way it is, damnit!, and both the
> language and the tone and the wider implications of the statements in
> this file are insults to everyone who has ever thought Common Lisp was a
> great language. This file is like a "personal statement" on why women
> should have breast implants and other cosmetic surgery, because, frankly,
> they are _all_ butt ugly as a matter of course ("one can go on and on
> about how bad natural breasts are, but we'll try to be brief") unless
> _modified_ to fit the "personal taste" of particular misogynic. Repeat
> the experiment of reading this document as if it were about something you
> happen to _like_. Do you want to deal with a person who goes out of his
> way to insult something _great_ and who thinks marring it is necessary?
Those are not technical points, valid or otherwise.
(Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the valid technical
point(s) that Erik is making? I can't find anything in that article
that I would consider to be a valid technical point, but I'm always
happy to be enlightened.)
> > I submit that anyone wanting to make their own assessment of Erik's net
> > value to the Lisp community can gain some valuable perspective by
> > looking at the contributions that John has made over the years.
>
> Of course, it was not good that Foderaro left. But: Was it really
> necessary for someone who should have some confidence in himself and his
> position in the CL community to go away because of the above attack? He
> should have simply ignored it.
Of course he should have. Just as Erik should have ignored all the
attacks made on him. Just as all the Erik sycophants out there ought to
ignore everything I say about Erik (but I'll give you long odds that at
least one of them won't). It always takes two to tango. The trouble
with Erik was not that he flamed people, nor that he used foul language,
nor even that he was wrong much of the time. People flame people and
use foul language and are wrong on the web all the time. The problem
with Erik was simply that he didn't play by the same rules that he
wanted to apply to everyone else. He could dish it out, but he couldn't
take it. He was, quite simply, a hypocrite. That is the only thing
that ever bothered me about Erik.
rg
Erik Max Francis
> Why don't you check your cherished archive you are using to try
> posthumously to attach your sad little wagon to Erik? Perhaps a report
> from the time of the event will seem more convincing. Hey, you may even
> be right.
Meowr! Cat fight!
P.S. Who gives a shit?
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM/Y!M/Skype erikmaxfrancis
Gods are born and die, but the atom endures.
-- Alexander Chase
vippstar
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> > Why don't you check your cherished archive you are using to try
> > posthumously to attach your sad little wagon to Erik? Perhaps a report
> > from the time of the event will seem more convincing. Hey, you may even
> > be right.
>
> Meowr! Cat fight!
>
> P.S. Who gives a shit?
What makes you think that doesn't apply for your post?
vippstar
> fft1976 <fft1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Btw, "Kenny refused to speak to me at the conference" LOL WUT?
>
> Laugh all you want, but it's true. I approached him, introduced myself,
> and he literally turned his head and went back to whatever he was
> working on. I was shocked.
I can't believe how silly you people would behave. I mean, personal
issues over the internet, sure, but if I ever met anyone from here I
think I wouldn't miss the chance to talk to him, especially if we're
both in the same conference. I mean, why else would you go in a
conference but to socialize with similarly interested people? It's in
the definition of 'conference'. How do you figure in the interest/ego
ratio that you don't want to forget everything temporarily and simply
talk honestly with someone?
Erik Max Francis
Right back at you.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM/Y!M/Skype erikmaxfrancis
More fodder for the new lost generation
-- Nik Kershaw
Kenneth Tilton
What makes you think the thing you find astounding happened?
hth, kt
Kenneth Tilton
btw, I am reminded of more than one exchange with the AVP in the inner
city school at which I taught:
AVP: Mr. Tilton, I am quite concerned. Duane here says you tore up his
homework and then gave him a zero for not having his homework.
Me: What's the problem?
AVP: You can't do that!
Me: What makes you think I did that?
AVP: I told you, Duane said you did it.
Me: I know he told you that. I am asking you what makes you think I did it?
Eventually the AVP got it.
hth, kt
vippstar
It was still possible that you destroyed Duanes homework though; if
the AVP was convinced that you didn't do as such after chatting with
you, he did not adopt a stronger position than previously ;-).
My point was to express my thoughts on such possibility, lispers among
lispers not talking to each other.
Kenneth Tilton
Sorry, the above is a bit off. It should have conveyed better that the
AVP treated Duane's assertion as fact, just as you (?) bought into
Erann's story lock, stock, and barrel.
kt
Ron Garret
Ron Garret <rNOS...@flownet.com> wrote:
> In article
> <533bd839-9f9c-4611...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> Rainer Joswig <jos...@lisp.de> wrote:
>
> > On 25 Jul., 02:04, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <429214f6-1898-4a41-ad07-c3b649d36...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > > �Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm thinking that there should be a archive of all Erik's writings, at
> > > > least all his newsgroup writings.
> > >
> > > I have obtained a copy of the entire Google comp.lang.lisp corpus as of
> > > about a week ago.
> >
> > how about net.lang.lisp ?
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.lisp/topics?hl=en
>
> Heh, forgot all about that. I can't get it through the same channel
> that I used for the cll archive (I had to push my luck just to get cll
> and cls) but there are only 991 articles so I should be able to scrape
> it. Give me a day or two.
OK, here's net.lang.lisp:
http://www.flownet.com/ron/nll.txt.gz
989 articles over four and a half years, and not a single spam. Those
were indeed the good old days.
rg
Nicolas Neuss
> (Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the valid technical
> point(s) that Erik is making? I can't find anything in that article
> that I would consider to be a valid technical point, but I'm always
> happy to be enlightened.)
Sorry, Ron, but my additional link was not provided for you but for the
sake of other people.
Nicolas
--
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. -- Navajo Proverb
Ron Garret
Nicolas Neuss <last...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote:
> Ron Garret <rNOS...@flownet.com> writes:
>
> > (Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the valid technical
> > point(s) that Erik is making? I can't find anything in that article
> > that I would consider to be a valid technical point, but I'm always
> > happy to be enlightened.)
>
> Sorry, Ron, but my additional link was not provided for you but for the
> sake of other people.
Then for the sake of other people, please answer the question.
rg
fft1976
> In article <87skgjidim....@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>,
> Nicolas Neuss <lastn...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote:
>
> > Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> writes:
>
> > > (Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the valid technical
> > > point(s) that Erik is making? I can't find anything in that article
> > > that I would consider to be a valid technical point, but I'm always
> > > happy to be enlightened.)
>
> > Sorry, Ron, but my additional link was not provided for you but for the
> > sake of other people.
>
> Then for the sake of other people, please answer the question.
>
> rg
I wouldn't expect much from this poor fella. Earlier, he claimed that
Scheme has no imperative control structures or assignment.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f952499ec7b88ff7
Leave him alone.
Raffael Cavallaro
> I wouldn't expect much from this poor fella. Earlier, he claimed that
> Scheme has no imperative control structures or assignment.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f952499ec7b88ff7
You do realize that the article referenced quotes you and George
Neuner, not Nicolas Neuss or Ron Garret, right?
--
Raffael Cavallaro
Pascal J. Bourguignon
There are copies in Germany:
ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.bz2
ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.gz
ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/barzilay.org/misc/cls.txt.bz2
ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/barzilay.org/misc/cls.txt.gz
ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/www.flownet.com/ron/nll.txt.gz
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
vippstar
> vippstar wrote:
>> On Jul 26, 6:23 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> btw, I am reminded of more than one exchange with the AVP in the inner
>>> city school at which I taught:
>
>>> AVP: Mr. Tilton, I am quite concerned. Duane here says you tore up his
>>> homework and then gave him a zero for not having his homework.
>
>> It was still possible that you destroyed Duanes homework though;
>
> Sorry, the above is a bit off. It should have conveyed better that the
> AVP treated Duane's assertion as fact, just as you (?) bought into
> Erann's story lock, stock, and barrel.
I saw the meaning of your story and its relevance to my post.
It's not off because my point is that I have no available evidence to
trust you any more than Ron Garret. I pointed out the irony of being
told to not trust someone, and instead of figuring out that noone is
trustable, trust the person that adviced you. Likewise, AVP would
believe you're telling the truth, when he believed someone else
before. It is as if you're told to be dependedless, and you begin
depending on the person that told you so. I had left a smiley in my
original message, to let you know not to take it too seriously.
Though because of the circumstances the AVP would trust you more than
Duane, and perhaps I should be trusting you more than Ron Garret
because of your involvement in the lisp community & lisp matters.
Ron Garret
<d75e7bb8-d0bd-4326...@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>,
vippstar <vipp...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm pretty sure many of Bernie Madoff's investors used a similar
criterion in evaluating his trustworthiness. He was, after all, a
pillar of the financial community.
But this he-said he-said is going to get us nowhere. To the best of my
recollection, things happened as I have recounted them. But even if I
am telling what in my mind is the truth, I might simply be wrong. We
are, after all, talking about an incident that happened ten years ago
and took less than a minute to unfold. I have no way of proving my
version of events. What I can do, however, is repeat the experiment:
Kenny, the next time I'm in New York, will you meet with me? I'll buy
you lunch.
rg
Kenneth Tilton
> What I can do, however, is repeat the experiment:
One cannot step into the same stream twice: as I said, I gave up on
talking to you when you responded to one remark with a machine gun burst
of no less than four preposterous remarks each just screaming for
rebuttal but I recognized the phenomenon and was more interested in
talking with people than doing a four hour flamewar in person.
Our brief exchange about the clinical trial start-up was equally depressing.
So this is a new experiment testing only whether I remember how
unsatisfying is a conversation with you. Results above.
>
> Kenny, the next time I'm in New York, will you meet with me? I'll buy
> you lunch.
With your Google riches? Be still my beating heart!
Lessee, then you could write "Lunch with Kenny" after I am gone and
completely misremember that, too.... let's not and say we did.
Suggest you come to a Lisp-NYC meeting (second Tuesday, but we have been
known to convene ad hoc when Lisp luminaries are in town). I want witnesses.
kt
Ron Garret
Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ron Garret wrote:
> > What I can do, however, is repeat the experiment:
>
> One cannot step into the same stream twice:
That's true. And one reason for this is that people change. How long
do I have to wait before you give me a chance to redeem myself? Is ten
years not enough?
> Our brief exchange about the clinical trial start-up was equally depressing.
I have a copy of that exchange. Do I have your permission to make it
public so that people can make their own judgements about our respective
conducts?
> > Kenny, the next time I'm in New York, will you meet with me? I'll buy
> > you lunch.
>
> With your Google riches? Be still my beating heart!
>
> Lessee, then you could write "Lunch with Kenny" after I am gone and
> completely misremember that, too....
We can record the conversation. I would have actually asked your
permission to do that anyway because I don't enjoy this he-said-he-said
game any more than you do.
> let's not and say we did.
And there we have it. Ten years you've been carrying this chip on your
shoulder, you must have one colossal crick in your neck.
> Suggest you come to a Lisp-NYC meeting (second Tuesday, but we have been
> known to convene ad hoc when Lisp luminaries are in town). I want witnesses.
You can bring whoever you want. The more witnesses the better. But I'm
only picking up the tab for you. I wouldn't want you to accuse me of
trying to buy a favorable review.
rg
Kenneth Tilton
Tab? Save your Google $$$ for therapy.
As I said, meetings are second Tuesday and more than a few of us would
convene ad hoc for war stories about Lisp in space and Erik.
Otheriwse, RIP.
kt
Ron Garret
Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As I said, meetings are second Tuesday and more than a few of us would
> convene ad hoc for war stories about Lisp in space and Erik.
OK, good to know. I'll let you know the next time I'm in town.
rg
Pascal J. Bourguignon
I guess there's a little bug in your scrapper, since we have some
articles that have not been printed to nll.txt readably:
GMSGID: 04af3ef54863d77a
#<SIMPLE-STRING 6284 Relay-Versio...=====>
GMSGID: 2d0fdfda73fa4605
#<SIMPLE-STRING 6586 Relay-Versio...rp. ]>
and others like this.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Ron Garret
Doh! Forgot to rebind *print-length*. I'll redo this tomorrow. All
the articles are in a DB so I won't have to rescrape.
Sorry about that.
rg
Pascal J. Bourguignon
> Doh! Forgot to rebind *print-length*. I'll redo this tomorrow. All
> the articles are in a DB so I won't have to rescrape.
>
> Sorry about that.
No problem, "release early, release often" ;-)
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Nicolas Neuss
Why? There is noone else asking.[*]
Nicolas
[*] To "fft1976" and the like, if they should feel like chiming in here:
The person asking should better be a well-known and respected citizen of
comp.lang.lisp, before I start opening this can of worms.
Ron Garret
Nicolas Neuss <last...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote:
Let's see...
"Well known" -- Seriously? You think I'm not well known? It seems to
me that the fact that I'm well known is part of the problem.
"Respected" -- Respected by whom? By you?
Citizen?!? When did C.L.L. become a nation-state? I've been here since
January of 1990. Does that qualify me as a citizen under the
grandfather clause (pun intended)? (I note in passing that your first
posting to C.L.L. was not until December 12, 2000. Having a searchable
archive of c.l.l. is really cool. Hm, I wonder who we have to thank for
that.)
So your statement macroexpands to: "I won't answer your question because
I don't respect you." And the reason you don't respect me is not
because I'm not a well-known citizen of c.l.l., but because I'm not a
member of the Erik Naggum personality cult. Anyone who questions the
Dear Leader is not worthy of respect, and anyone who is not worthy of
respect doesn't get their questions answered. How convenient for you.
rg
Ron Garret
p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote:
> Ron Garret <rNOS...@flownet.com> writes:
> > Doh! Forgot to rebind *print-length*. I'll redo this tomorrow. All
> > the articles are in a DB so I won't have to rescrape.
> >
> > Sorry about that.
>
> No problem, "release early, release often" ;-)
OK, it should be corrected now. The new version is 602417 bytes.
http://www.flownet.com/ron/nll.txt.gz
rg
fft1976
>
> So your statement macroexpands to: "I won't answer your question because
> I don't respect you." And the reason you don't respect me is not
> because I'm not a well-known citizen of c.l.l., but because I'm not a
> member of the Erik Naggum personality cult. Anyone who questions the
> Dear Leader is not worthy of respect, and anyone who is not worthy of
> respect doesn't get their questions answered. How convenient for you.
>
I'm just a heathen, because I do not accept Erik as my personal
savior, but you are a Judas or anti-Erik.
I've read somewhere that Erik developed UC 15 years ago. That would be
the time he descended on CLL. I wonder if there is a causal link.
Rainer Joswig
Given from where is was coming, he was ascending.
w_a_x_man
> > I've read somewhere that Erik developed UC 15 years ago. That would be
> > the time he descended on CLL. I wonder if there is a causal link.
>
> Given from where is was coming, he was ascending.
"Given from where is was coming, he was ascending.".
sub( /from where.*,/, "whence he came," )
==>"Given whence he came, he was ascending."
Rainer Joswig
* sub( /from where.*,/, "whence he came," )
debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE: The variable SUB is unbound.
Pascal J. Bourguignon
Thanks.
Copy at
ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/www.flownet.com/ron/nll.txt.gz
updated.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Nicolas Neuss
This is a foul argument for the sake of continuing this exchange. Your
person was already not under consideration anymore, and therefore my last
post says nothing at all about how I regard you.
For the record: I rank you much higher than nameless crap like "fft1976"
which did not yet leave a positive trace in my memory and with which I
never would waste that much time. So, if someone else of your status would
want me to explain Naggum's message to Foderaro, it would easily suffice to
get me started. But I am reasonably confident that sane people agree with
Neil van Dyke and do not want to refight the wars from ten years ago.
The reason why I do not answer _you_ is different and was stated in my
signature further up in this thread (which you unfortunately skipped):
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. -- Navajo Proverb
And I have already elaborated why I think that this sentence applies to you
in the following posts:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a798bb3b0366a9ac
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/98ff5654dc5fcebb
[Concerning these posts, the threads that follow them, and probably also
this thread (because I will only post any further if really necessary),
please note the following important difference between our argumentation
styles:
Your style seems to be that whenever you have replied to a post you have
automatically refuted it, from which it follows that an argument has been
won by the party which has had the last word. My style is completely
different from this. I do not feel in any way obliged to follow
irrelevant arguments, but trust in intelligent readers who can sort out
who is right by more than looking who has been last in the thread.
Instead, I explicitly acknowledge when I feel that someone has refuted me
in some important point (as I have done recently when I conceded to Jon
Harrop that I as an academic do not have the right to diss Windows users
in the way I did). Which somehow means that if I do _not_ have the last
word, you did _not_ convince me.
Thus, although you replied to the posts I cite above, you never received
an acknowledgement by me that I accepted your answers as valid rebuttals.
Therefore, I still stand by all important assertions in these messages.
Especially the one that you hate Erik Naggum in a way which makes
explaining to you Naggum's post to Foderaro a time-consuming but
completely futile endeavor which I will not undertake.]
Nicolas
fft1976
> nameless crap like "fft1976"
> which did not yet leave a positive trace in my memory and with which I
> never would waste that much time.
LOL, and you didn't leave a positive trace in my memory. I don't even
remember which of the 2+ Neu[a-z]+ fools you are now.
Nicolas Neuss
> On Jul 29, 1:00�am, Nicolas Neuss <lastn...@math.uni-karlsruhe.de>
>
>> nameless crap like "fft1976"
>> which did not yet leave a positive trace in my memory and with which I
>> never would waste that much time.
>
> LOL, and you didn't leave a positive trace in my memory.
I would be ashamed of myself if I had done.
fft1976
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.system/msg/f0338f0a7458c534
It appears to be incomplete, but still very profound.
Ian
Isn't he just quoting 1984?
Rob Warnock
+---------------
Actually, Erik wasn't quoting anybody there, since he didn't post that!!
If you do a web search for the text in that article, you will find
a bunch of other articles with *exactly* the same text, but with
different forged "From:" headers. Erik's name was surely also forged.
[There was a lot of that going around at one point.]
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <rp...@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Richard Tobin
Ian <ianpr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.system/msg/f0338f0a7458c534
>>
>> It appears to be incomplete, but still very profound.
>Isn't he just quoting 1984?
That's not Erik, it's spam. Look at other posts around that date.
-- Richard
--
Please remember to mention me / in tapes you leave behind.
fft1976
> In article <5612edbb-7305-41f2-abbd-9e4f0e9b9...@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Ian <ianpric...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.system/msg/f0338f0a7458c534
>
> >> It appears to be incomplete, but still very profound.
> >Isn't he just quoting 1984?
>
> That's not Erik, it's spam. Look at other posts around that date.
>
Doesn't sound like spam. What is he/she trying to sell there?
I think Erik wanted to flame Apple, so he began writing, but his GNUS
skills failed him, and the message got sent too soon. That's how and
why he gave up on USENET, in frustration.
If I'm wrong and this is not Erik, I'd like to see his real last flame.
Raymond Wiker
> On Jul 31, 3:37�am, rich...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>> In article <5612edbb-7305-41f2-abbd-9e4f0e9b9...@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> Ian �<ianpric...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> >>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.system/msg/f0338f0a7458c534
>>
>> >> It appears to be incomplete, but still very profound.
>> >Isn't he just quoting 1984?
>>
>> That's not Erik, it's spam. �Look at other posts around that date.
>>
>
> Doesn't sound like spam. What is he/she trying to sell there?
Where did you get the idea that spam is only used to sell stuff?
> I think Erik wanted to flame Apple, so he began writing, but his GNUS
> skills failed him, and the message got sent too soon. That's how and
> why he gave up on USENET, in frustration.
Where did you get the idea that that message was sent with GNUS?
> If I'm wrong and this is not Erik, I'd like to see his real last flame.
Yes, you're wrong.
Harald Hanche-Olsen
>> If I'm wrong and this is not Erik, I'd like to see his real last flame.
>
> Yes, you're wrong.
IIRC, Erik took great care to add a digital signature to every one of
his posts, at least for the last several years (maybe ten or so?).
--
* Harald Hanche-Olsen <URL:http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/>
- It is undesirable to believe a proposition
when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing it is true.
-- Bertrand Russell
fft1976
> + Raymond Wiker <r...@RawMBP.local>:
>
> >> If I'm wrong and this is not Erik, I'd like to see his real last flame.
>
> > Yes, you're wrong.
>
> IIRC, Erik took great care to add a digital signature to every one of
> his posts, at least for the last several years (maybe ten or so?).
Looks like it's this one then:
http://groups.google.com/group/no.samfunn.politikk.diverse/msg/3c5398d4f4352dad
I noticed the fulfillment of Godwin's law, but no overt references to
breast implants or rape. Hmmm... What do you, Naggum scholars, make of
this?
Translated from Erik's native tongue:
============================================================
* Tor PEDO @ 2007-10-17 00:07 Z -> "C Lund"
>> Now, there was actually no one asked the Arabs in the region what they
>> Thought about this decision (they were in any case not heard).
A legal process is usually the outcome that all parties are asked,
all parties are heard, and you should be able to find a resolution
that gives the minimum
problems for the affected parties. Sometimes the minimum is more than
one or
more of the parties can accept. It is normal to lie about that they do
not
was heard, in the belief that / if / they had been heard, would be the
final
decision would have been better for them. But this ignored the
achieved
decision also provides a minimum of problems for everyone else, so
that if one part
not "accept" the results, process, or both since the adoption
were poorer than they can withstand, it will take too much respect to
them,
lead to greater problems for everyone else. Such ailments are not
people
without conscience or with a religious delusion about their
inherent superiority (read: Muslims), for whom the truth has never
been
something objectively, regardless, but only that which serves their
purpose.
When we look at how "good" Muslims all over the world is to
nominate themselves to "sacrifice" for all your / actual fair /
processes, and how much they actually believe in the religious
Vanviddet their
that Muslims have precedence over all other people, it is easy to
understand that without disabilities will lie as it runs them on how
process is ended with that they had his will, went for him. This
has been their mode operandi of so many political processes
through the times that the faith of a Muslim who says he is victim of
a
proceedings against him and against the whole damn Islam, not
applicable. When a
muslim tilt and wear them over how much he abused and
discriminated, and all your favorable bullshit, reveals
truth-seeking processes that Muslims actually have been / benefits /
on
because of the fear of this evindelige no harp about how bad the
treated. Muslims in England, for example, exposed well below the
half as often for a very comprehensive "politivold term" as
African-ættene and even less often than white Britons, but they / do /
and the
repeated so often that even the fuss the media think it, that they be
subjected to such
politivold many times more often than all other groups, that they "be
prosecuted"
and that they are particularly vulnerable to "hatmotivert violence",
even so, to say no
are something like / to / them, but on the contrary / of / them on a
large scale.
When the Muslims have the absolute and unparalleled largest proportion
of
British jail birds, it is not that they are "prosecuted" in particular
often, but that Muslims, as a group, are 5-6 times more criminal than
any
other ethnic group in England. Violence against white / from / Muslims
are for some
reports over 50 times more common than violence / against / Muslims
from the white.
Yet it is Muslims who are able to make the sacrifice. It is
consequently, no reason to / think / is a Muslim who says he is
"persecuted":
He has instead only very major problems with accepting that it's
a law of his religion and his frivolous, a law he has abnormal
problems to orient themselves after, not least because it is
"Democratic" and not derived from the god his adventure.
So when a Muslim repeated offer of the role he and his folk group, and
the whole fucking religion is in the immediate world is against him,
due to
not that he is particularly bad treated. On the contrary: It is
because
He is particularly well handled, but still not getting everything he
"requires"
of other people.
>> You must remember that the lawful and fair are two different things.
> Legally? By what law or with what right did the SN decision?
> It had to be in that case be the leftovers thrown right ....
UN legal processes are very well defined and they are followed on the
very
exemplary ways in international law. The weakest part is in much
increasingly heard in the UN than in any / alternative / legal forums,
and in
very much greater extent than in any "forums" that have ever existed.
Å
believe that it is the strongest that applies in the United Nations,
as if this was a
shame taint, is to believe that it would be better off without the UN,
something absolutely all
experience of history suggests that is an extremely naive delusion.
Case in point: The reason that so many conservative Americans hate the
UN
even more than Muslims hate the United States, is precisely that for
the strongest, ie,
their right, / not / the winner.
The problem with international law is that people who have been at war
with
each other for thousands of years just will not come to any fair
arrangements in peace and fordrag else just because you created the
United Nations. It will
international law will always be reliable and credible threats
mottrusler governing power relations. At the world's nations, all with
enormous arsenal, has been willing to come together in the United
Nations for at least
to talk together / before / they go to war against each other, is a
fantastic
accomplishment that we should be very proud to have been ordered, even
if we
had to go through two large, costly wars in Europe before / white
people / fant
that the world would benefit from / white problem solving methods /.
All other
peoples throughout history have been very satisfied with no war in the
between. But because the UN is "white", the Muslims have extreme
objections
against the whole system, especially the "white" human rights that
destroy
Islam demands the Muslims takes precedence over all other people and
man
over the female, and the whole package of oppression and segregation.
But it
er / white / who gets the blame for slavery, as white / abolished / as
de
the first in history, while the Muslims still do with slavery, and was
the first driving / trade / by slaves and white came to an Africa in
which
trade in slaves between the tribes was a common practice, just as
it is the Nazis who gets the blame for having been the worst killers
in public
the story when in fact they were only guilty of being the most /
effective /
and the most / cynical / but not killed anywhere near as many, neither
absolute or relative to the population, that religious wars have led
to, and only a third of what the communists managed to murder before
Vanviddet were declared unsuccessful, however, for a few more years.
But this
is that when a Western industrial accident, such as in Bhopal, killing
the very
many at once, this is absolutely horribelt terrible, but when the
local
ways to drive the industry / annual / kills four times as many people
in the same country, it is not that raise a eyebrow. The death example
like many / several / Americans in car accidents as a result of not
flying the
first year after 9 / 11 than died in 9/11-angrepet, but these lives
lost one by one at a time and drowned in the high death toll for
a "lifestyle" that annually take the lives of as many people as three-
four
9 / 11, again without any promises an eyebrow. The problem here is
that when
NOK is not smart to be able to deal with large amounts of data, takes
feelings over and you're just concentrating on what is being
"NOK terrible" that it gives the shot in relation to the abnormal
suffering is happening all over the world all the time. The white
people in
particular have brought the world, is a way to study / totality / in
the
happening so you can get the sum of all the bodies on the road in the
USA, and
not / only / even the enormous catastrophe. This will, tragic and
ironically, a lot of people to believe that everything bad that white
working methods, in particular statistics and information technology,
now
reveals and shows up, also is white / guilt /, as if the Africans
extremely talented loose way of doing agriculture on not led to
hunger disasters for thousands of years before white came there and
began to
report on it and count the victims, or that Africans do not drive with
slave trade only because no gadden to measure the extent of it, while
white
led meticulous nedtegnelser of trade, so also nazistenes extreme
precise accounting and made it possible to determine with high
precision how many they killed, while kommunistenes serious lack of
interest in human life enabled them to kill many more, and never
summing them, because no one / had / a few numbers from each massacre.
It is as if the fact that the white working methods lead to an
will / conscious / so much more of what is happening in the world,
leading to
/ responsible / for it to become conscious. Can you count it, one
should like
also prevent it, but they do not bother to count it, you do not need
to
prevent it, because without telling, there is no one can measure the
difference
to do something about it, either.
But the unique white view that all human life is worth just as much,
is our greatest achievement, and the greatest insult to all the
racists who
believe that they are more valuable than all others because of their
religion or
else entirely local phenomenon. When all is "agreed" that the Gentiles
are less
value than the believer, there is no one notice that all are racists,
but when
it comes and says that some unbelievers and believers are equal human
beings,
you can swear that those who / do not / believe it will be the first
to
yell and carry on about racism, that is precisely what we observe in
the West
Today: There are those who feel / the / is down upon because they /
like reset /
with people / the / deem less worthy, screaming up about racism
against / them /.
Specifically, for the Middle East comes to the tragic fact that /
all / these
forstokkede, primitive folk ferdene / still / think that they are more
valuable
than all other people groups around them. They have not learned
anything of it
white project with the United Nations and similar human rights
for all. When only two people who both believe they are better than
the
others, leading to a determined hostility, of course, leads many
people groups
that all believe that they are better than all the others, to the
extreme
hostilities that can not be resolve before people stop believing that
they are more
value than all others around them, but for the type of primitive
vanskapning
believe that one is inherently better than others because of their
people's history,
and not eg / fact / better than others because of one's own moral and
actions / individual /, it is to be the first to recognize that one is
second equal, always a huge defeat for the primitive
their sense of honor: They feel they need to set up / under / the
level of the
think they are on today for the same period as any other, rather than
raise the second up to his level, because the others around them will
only treat
them as less worthy if they try them on gender equality. I do not know
how we actually did it in the West, but we managed to get the people
who carried
on such crazy primitive ismer to stop it and to admit people
equality for the law, equality as human beings, etc. I wish I
knew how we got it, this is something we need to export that
our culture's biggest accomplishment ever. World peace depends on it.
Erik Naggum
--
Member of AAAS ACM AMS APS ASA ASL EMS IEEE IMS MAA MF NYAS PSA
Probability is not about the odds. It is about the belief in the
existence of an alternative outcome, cause, or motive. - Taleb
ID: 2007-290-14183 http://erik.naggum.no/sources-and-resources/