LISP AI folklore

[Mentifex]

Those rent-a-coder programming wags over at

http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1318706528

have launched "Occupy Comp.Lang.Lisp"
with a thread unrighteously entitled,
"Ask John McCarthy anything".

Sorry, script kiddies, v.t.y. Mentifex has already
BTDT (been there, done that) with the following
exchange of views between Mentifex and His Nibs:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/04814d7fcec9d16e
asking Dr. McCarthy if he regrets pioneering AI.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5a20daf7c361275b
where the Piafesque answer is, "Je ne regrette rien."

Mentifex (Arthur)
--
http://aimind-i.com
http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

[fortunatus]

Oh, my golly, it's been a long time hearing from Mentifex! How are
you, ol' fella?

[Antti J Ylikoski]

It reads in the Sourceforge site:

"This weblog invites Lisp programmers to implement the main Alife Mind
loop of the simplest artificial intelligence."

I might want to carry out some work for the Mentifex project, if that's
what is desired above. I have been more or less working with LISP since
the 1980's.

The manuscript of my PhD thesis (with some dozen known errors) is in
http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf . Oh yes, and the work needs to be
carefully scrutinized for correct English.

(BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS there is there the
famous Star Trek computer game in a modern version.)


kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the EU

[Mentifex]

On Oct 22, 2:39 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> 15.10.2011 23:58, Mentifex kirjoitti:

> [...]

> > Sorry, script kiddies, v.t.y. Mentifex has already
> > BTDT (been there, done that) with the following
> > exchange of views between Mentifex and His Nibs:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/04814d7fcec9d16e
> > asking Dr. McCarthy if he regrets pioneering AI.
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/5a20daf7c361275b
> > where the Piafesque answer is, "Je ne regrette rien."
>
> > Mentifex (Arthur)
> > --
> > http://aimind-i.com
> > http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
> > http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
> > http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>
> It reads in the Sourceforge site:
>
> "This weblog invites Lisp programmers to implement the
> main Alife Mind loop of the simplest artificial intelligence."
>
> I might want to carry out some work for the Mentifex project,
> if that's what is desired above. I have been more or less
> working with LISP since the 1980's.

http://mind.sourceforge.net/aisteps.html
describes how to replicate in Lisp the
open-source AI Mind in Forth from

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt

and in JavaScript for MSIE from

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

and as replicated in Win32Forth at the

http://aimind-i.com website.

Be forewarned, please, that it is not easy
to recode the artificial Mind from Forth or
JavaScript into any other language, even
Lisp, the original McCarthy AI language.

>
> The manuscript of my PhD thesis
> (with some dozen known errors) is in
> http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes,
> and the work needs to be carefully
> scrutinized for correct English.
>
> (BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS
> there is there the famous Star Trek computer game
> in a modern version.)
>
> kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
> Helsinki, Finland, the EU
>

And Fortunatus wrote upthread:

> Oh, my golly, it's been a long time hearing from Mentifex!
> How are you, ol' fella?

Just fine, Fortunatus, And how are you?

Cheers,

Arthur T. Murray (a.k.a. "Mentifex")
--
http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2011/01/aiapp.html
http://www.chatbots.org/ai_zone/viewthread/240/
http://code.google.com/p/mindforth/wiki/JsAiManual
http://groups.google.com/group/net.ai/msg/3a4429a7b26d40ef/

[Antti J Ylikoski]

Thank you for the reminder about the difficulty of the task. You have
made me to the extent interested, that I ordered, from the Amazon.com,
the AI4U book.

[Mentifex]

On Oct 23, 1:17 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> 22.10.2011 22:31, Mentifex kirjoitti:

> [...]

> > Be forewarned, please, that it is not easy
> > to recode the artificial Mind from Forth or
> > JavaScript into any other language, even
> > Lisp, the original McCarthy AI language.

[...]

> >> The manuscript of my PhD thesis
> >> (with some dozen known errors) is in
> >> http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/diss.pdf .  Oh yes,
> >> and the work needs to be carefully
> >> scrutinized for correct English.
>
> >> (BTW in http://www.tkk.fi/~ajy/FreeBASIC/ST.BAS
> >> there is there the famous Star Trek computer game
> >> in a modern version.)
>
> >> kind regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski
> >> Helsinki, Finland, the EU
>
>

> Thank you for the reminder about the difficulty
> of the task.  You have made me to the extent interested,
> that I ordered, from the Amazon.com, the AI4U book.
>
> regards, Mr Antti J Ylikoski

> Helsinki, Finland, the EU- Hide quoted text -
>
Thank you for ordering the AI4U book. It is
mainly valuable for mind-diagrams and for the
28 October 2002 JavaScript AI source code,
which has since been updated on-line at
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

Today I have programmed and uploaded the
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt
source code of the MindForth AI, which is
more advanced than the JavaScript AI. My
plan is to finish debugging the AI-Complete
Forth program and port it to JavaScript,
which is easier for Lisp coders to use.

Meanwhile I hope that we can carry out our
AI discussions right here on comp.lang.lisp
where other interested parties may join in.

Cheers,

Arthur T. Murray
--
http://search.ebay.com/ai4u
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/307824.307853
http://www.chatbots.org/ai_zone/viewthread/240/
http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2009/11/mainloop.html

[Antti J Ylikoski]

I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f. I could not.

I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit
operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and
a 64-bit operating system.

(I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel
CORE i5 processor.)

yours, A. J. Y.

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Antti J Ylikoski wrote:

> Mentifex [wrote]:
>> [the usual nonsense]

>
> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f. I could not.
>
> I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit
> operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and
> a 64-bit operating system.
>
> (I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel
> CORE i5 processor.)

*Please* do not feed the troll.

<http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html>


X-Post trimmed to Big8, F'up2 poster

PointedEars
--
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
-- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f. I could not.

Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
of dent in the AI problem.

Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
removable.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

24.10.2011 20:16, Kaz Kylheku kirjoitti:
> On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f. I could not.
>
> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
> of dent in the AI problem.
>

No, I don't. My curiousness about the Mentifex is similar to what I
would feel towards a new Prolog interpreter. Not maybe big science, but
in its manner interesting.

> Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
> complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
> removable.

No.... I think I calculated that the information processing power of the
human brain could be more than 10 to the 30th power bits per second.
And there are 10 to the 11th power neurons in the human brain, every one
of them typically are connected to thousands of other neurons.

That is the kind of complexity that one must create to make a
human-level AI to my opinion.

Interpreted or even compiled FORTH doesn't quite cut it.

But I was interested in writing a CLOS-Mentifex, i. e. utilizing object
oriented processing to the Mentifex problem.

yours, AJY



PS.


(setf antti-y (make-instance 'clos-mentifex-human
:length 192
:weight NIL
:name "Antti Juhani Ylikoski"
:birthdate "03-23-1960"))

(send 'antti-y :think "C:\\AI\\AI-problem.lisp")
;;; Send is a generic function which is here being used in the manner
;;; inspird by the Symbolics Zetalisp.

(send 'antti-y :eat 'chateaubriand)

(send 'antti-y :examine :left-leg)

that kind of thing.

Idem

[Mentifex]

On Oct 23, 11:06 pm, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> [...]

> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.
>
> I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit
> operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and
> a 64-bit operating system.
>
> (I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel
> CORE i5 processor.)
>
> yours, A. J. Y.

MindForth works in either 32-bit W32FOR42_671.zip Win32Forth free
from

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/win32forth/W32FOR42_671.zip?download

or in 64-bit iForth (Intel Forth) that costs money from

http://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=AMP_Live&currency=USD

(notice that you may switch to a page in Finnish :-)

and two years ago in ca. October 2009 I paid for the
iForth which I downloaded onto my
32-bit Acer Aspire with Windows-XP Home Edition.
Gradually I learned that the same MindForth code
from Win32Forth would run unchanged in the iForth.

Just this morning on Mon.24.OCT.2011 I made major
improvements to MindForth and uploaded it to

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt

and I published my "AI Lab Notes" or
"MindForth Programming Journal" at

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mfpj.html

which is not a permanent webpage.
If you are still interested, please read

http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2009/11/linux.html

which is all about coding 64-bit iForth MindForth.

It is really excellent that you are working on
a 64-bit machine, a goal described in the

http://code.google.com/p/mindforth/wiki/AiStandards

document of the Google Code MindForth AI project.

As for anyone who asks if "some little Forth program
is going to make some kind of dent in the AI problem",
MindForth is now 4,500 lines of code and growing,
over the past thirteen years since 1998. The same
artificial intelligence has a JavaScript tutorial at

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

and if coding AI in 32-bit or 64-bit Forth
is not appealing to you, please check back in
periodically on the JavaScript tutorial version.

Very truly yours, A.T.M.

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Kaz Kylheku <k...@kylheku.com> writes:

> On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f. I could not.
>
> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
> of dent in the AI problem.

He's not alone in believing that AI could be implemented with a small
program.

For example Monica Anderson http://monicasmind.com/
and even Ray Kurtzweil, who computes a maximum size for the brain
blueprints specified in our genes that's much smaller than a lot of
contemporaneous software.


http://www.kurzweilai.net/kurzweil-responds-dont-underestimate-the-singularity

How do we get on the order of 100 trillion connections in the brain
from only tens of millions of bytes of design information?

> Maybe you secretly have faith or hope in the idea that the (hitherto unknown)
> complexity required to make some kind of thinking machine is exaggerated and
> removable.

So it seems he's in good company.


--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

I don't really believe that the complexity to achieve the human-level AI
would be exaggerated and removable.

Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a
human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic. The CYC system (Lenat et
al.) is a step in the right direction.

yours, A. J. Y.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

Downloading the 32bit FORTH did not work, because of a file related
problem. I don't know whether I will order the 64-bit Intel FORTH -- it
is 131 dollars.

What kind of thing is the Mentifex capable of? Can it write short
stories? I get the impression that it only outputs nongrammatical
sentence fragments -- is that wrong?

yours, AJY

PS. And, I want to avoid unjustifiedly discrediting your work -- first
I want to see it in practice.

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 2011-10-25 02:56:22 +0100, Antti J Ylikoski said:

> Quite on the contrary, I believe that the complexity to create a
> human-level AI will be enormous, gigantic. The CYC system (Lenat et
> al.) is a step in the right direction.

Well, as the person you're responding to pointed out, there's this
awkward thing that that doesn't seem to be the case. There's only so
much information that is used to get a brain to the point where it can
start to bootstrap itself.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

Has anyone attempted to make a cognitive system bootstrap itself by
giving the system in question (very, very) large text corpora -- I
wonder. Of course their contents should be suitable for this purpose.


yours, A. J. Y.

[Andrew Reilly]

Why do you suppose that digestion of text corporea (even complete, if
that were possible) would produce an inteligence that we would recognise
as such? What about real-time stimuli, needs and urges? Body functions?

It's been said that one can't understand a motorcycle from the
description in the manual, unless you have seen one in real life, first.

Cheers,

--
Andrew

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-25, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> Has anyone attempted to make a cognitive system bootstrap itself by
> giving the system in question (very, very) large text corpora -- I
> wonder.

Some academics try this approach on their students, with varying success.

[Mentifex]

On Oct 24, 7:12 pm, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> 24.10.2011 21:54, Mentifex kirjoitti: [...]

> > MindForth works in either 32-bit W32FOR42_671.zip
> > Win32Forth free from
>
> > http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/win32forth/W32FOR42_671.zip?download
>
> > or in 64-bit iForth (Intel Forth) that costs money from
>

> > http://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=AMP_Live¤cy=USD
> [...]

>
> Downloading the 32bit FORTH did not work, because of
> a file related problem.  I don't know whether I will
> order the 64-bit Intel FORTH -- it is 131 dollars.
>
> What kind of thing is the Mentifex capable of?

The Mentifex AI is capable of thought, of thinking.
When you run the AI Mind in either Forth or JavaScript,
it starts thinking by itself as an invitation for any nearby
human to communicate with the AI by entering a short
English sentence (e.g. "i am antti") or a query,
such as "who are you" or "what are you".

If you use an English noun that is unknown to the AI,
such as "uncorn" or "spooks", it will decide whether
the noun is singular or plural and wait for a pause in
the conversation to ask you a question like,
"WHAT IS A UNICORN" or "WHAT ARE SPOOKS".

If you use an unknown English noun in the
plural, the AI is conditioned first to ask you
something like "What do spooks do?", then
to wait for your answer (e.g., "Spooks scare people"),
and then to convert your answer to a speculative
question, e.g., "DO ROBOTS SCARE PEOPLE".
When you answer yes, no, maybe or nothing,
the AI retroactively adjusts its knowledge base
with all the associative-tag changes entailed
by your yes-or-no answer.

The Mentifex AI Mind uses neural inhibition
to briefly suppress any idea retrieved from
the knowledge base, perhaps in answer to
a query, so that different ideas may "come
to mind" as successively different answers
to the same query.

> Can it write short stories?

Not yet as a creative writer, but in tandem with you
it can create a printable transcript of a very
science-fiction-esque document -- a record of
yourself in conversation with the first True AI.

> I get the impression that it only outputs
> nongrammatical sentence fragments -- is that wrong?

It outputs complete sentences on the order of
Subject - Predicate - Object (SPO) triples.
It comprehends these SPO triples by
creating associative tags among the concepts
in each triple. The power of the AI lies in its
ability to comprehend, learn and remember
any small subset of tens of thousands of
SPO triples. (Reasoning must come later.)

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
is the JavaScript AI which will soon be as
advanced and powerful as the MindForth AI.

Thank you for you interest.

Cheers,

ATM

[Dr J R Stockton]

In comp.lang.javascript message <3005692.S...@PointedEars.de>,
Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:01:42, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<Point...@web.de> posted:

>Antti J Ylikoski wrote:
>
>> Mentifex [wrote]:
>>> [the usual nonsense]
>>
>> I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f. I could not.
>>
>> I get the error message that the FORTH that I have was made for a 32-bit
>> operating system, whereas the computer I have has a 64-bit processor and
>> a 64-bit operating system.
>>
>> (I have an Acer ASPIRE 5742G, with the 64-bit Windows and a 64-bit Intel
>> CORE i5 processor.)
>
>*Please* do not feed the troll.
>
><http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html>
>
>
>X-Post trimmed to Big8,

That is bad manners, since it makes the thread visible to those whose
kill-rules had previously concealed its existence.

There was, of course, no need for you to respond, because you had
nothing useful to contribute.

Please learn and sing the reputed Siamese National Anthem.

--
(c) John Stockton, nr London UK. replyYYWW merlyn demon co uk Turnpike 6.05.
Web <http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes precede replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Mail no News.

[BruceMcF]

On Oct 24, 1:16 pm, Kaz Kylheku <k...@kylheku.com> wrote:

> On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:

> > I attempted to run the FORTH Mentifex program Mind.f.  I could not.

Actually it ran, and decided it did not like the look of your computer
system so pretended that it hadn't run.

> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind of dent in the AI problem.

If done correctly. I believe that hexapodia is the key insight, here.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

That is a very good point to my opinion. So we shall need situatedness,
you think, don't you?

andy

[Antti J Ylikoski]

See with the Google, Joseph Weizenbaum's ELIZA program and its numerous
reincarnations in multiple languages, even in early microcomputer BASIC.
If you can use the GNU Emacs then the ELIZA (the original version) can
be started with the command M-x doctor .

Can the Mentifex program do something significantly exceeding ELIZA's
capabilities? It does not really convince me if an "AI" program can
give more of less canned answers to seeing some preset texts in its input.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but that's the kind of treatment an individual
will confront if he/she claims to have created a bit of real science.

yours, Andy

[Michael Haufe (TNO)]

On Oct 24, 12:16 pm, Kaz Kylheku <k...@kylheku.com> wrote:

> Do you honestly think that some little Forth program is going to make some kind
> of dent in the AI problem.

Don't drag Forth through the mud because someone (mis)uses it

[Mentifex]

On Oct 26, 5:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> [...]

First off, please be advised that over 25 and 26.OCT.2011 I
have labored exhaustively to bring the JavaScript AI (JSAI) at

http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

up on a par with the 32-bit or 64-bit MindForth AI.
Therefore Lisp programmers no longer need to
download Forth and run MindForth to see how the
AI mind learns, thinks and remembers.

> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly
> exceeding ELIZA's capabilities?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA may make a pretense
at thinking, but MindForth and the JSAI can _only_ think
and can not pretend in the way that Eliza pretends.

> It does not really convince me if an "AI" program

> can give more or less canned answers to seeing

> some preset texts in its input.

MindForth and the JSAI have some built-in _tendencies_
to help things along, but there are no "canned answers"
or "preset texts" being looked for in the inputs.

> Sorry if I'm being harsh, but that's the kind of treatment an individual
> will confront if he/she claims to have created a bit of real science.

The Mentifex AI project is not science, it is philosophy.

> yours, Andy

"Andru" is the name of the AI Mind when it
thinks about itself, because it is a short word;
it hints at "Android"; and it looks science-fictiony
(in a philosophy-centered way, of course).

This is a sad time in comp.lang.lisp, and I
am glad to have interacted here with John
McCarthy long ago. May he rest in peace.

Bye for now.

Arthur T. Murray
--
Charter member (with Tim Bradshaw) of
Mad People of Comp.Lang.Lisp at
http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html
http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html

[BruceMcF]

On Oct 26, 8:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> See with the Google, Joseph Weizenbaum's ELIZA program and its numerous
> reincarnations in multiple languages, even in early microcomputer
> BASIC.

> If you can use the GNU Emacs then the ELIZA (the original version) can
> be started with the command M-x doctor .

> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly exceeding ELIZA's
> capabilities?

Start with an Eliza-like program in Forth. Tinker with it for ten to
twenty years. Add strong confirmation bias. Voila, AI.

However, the core flaw is the bipedalism assumption. I believe that

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-25, Mentifex <ment...@myuw.net> wrote:
> The Mentifex AI is capable of thought, of thinking.

That may be true true, but not thugh on the level level, of say, the
brain of a cockroach or earthworm.

A vending machine is also capable of thought. It considers what selection you
have made, whether you have put in enough money or too much, and either waits
for more money or a cancelation, or else dispenses the product and change, if
any.

> The Mentifex AI Mind uses neural inhibition

Source file, line number?

> It outputs complete sentences on the order of
> Subject - Predicate - Object (SPO) triples.

Maybe this will count as a Computer Science 12 credit toward
a highschool diploma!

[van...@vsta.org]

In comp.lang.forth BruceMcF <agi...@netscape.net> wrote:
> Start with an Eliza-like program in Forth. Tinker with it for ten to
> twenty years. Add strong confirmation bias. Voila, AI.

The really amazing scientific result is that you can do this, posting
periodically about your program for all ten or twenty years, and you'll
*still* get responses every single time you post. I make no claims about the
scientific ramifications of this "AI" work, but the sociological implications
of always getting a response are profound.

--
Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 2011-10-25 14:58:25 +0100, Andrew Reilly said:

> Why do you suppose that digestion of text corporea (even complete, if
> that were possible) would produce an inteligence that we would recognise
> as such?

Because people who are interested in AI often think that the only
important thing is the "intellectual" stuff they are interested in, and
completely dismiss anything else as basically being a bit infra dig.
This is, of course, one of the reasons they've not got very far.

[Rod Speed]

van...@vsta.org wrote:
> BruceMcF <agi...@netscape.net> wrote

>> Start with an Eliza-like program in Forth. Tinker with it for
>> ten to twenty years. Add strong confirmation bias. Voila, AI.

> The really amazing scientific result is that you can do this, posting
> periodically about your program for all ten or twenty years, and
> you'll *still* get responses every single time you post. I make no
> claims about the scientific ramifications of this "AI" work, but the
> sociological implications of always getting a response are profound.

Not really. You get a similar effect with stuff as mundane as C or even Cobol.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

26.10.2011 21:12, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> On Oct 26, 5:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>> [...]
>
> First off, please be advised that over 25 and 26.OCT.2011 I
> have labored exhaustively to bring the JavaScript AI (JSAI) at
>
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>
> up on a par with the 32-bit or 64-bit MindForth AI.
> Therefore Lisp programmers no longer need to
> download Forth and run MindForth to see how the
> AI mind learns, thinks and remembers.
>
>> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly
>> exceeding ELIZA's capabilities?
>

Where can I see this JSAI Mentifex' source code, I would like to ask.

I attempted to carry out a conversation with this JavaScript Mentifex,
but I cannot evaluate it on that evidence alone. It was not a very
fluent companion in the discussion, anyway.

yours, A. J. Y, attempting not to troll this group but carry out a
scientific discussion.............

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

wget http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html && emacs AiMind.html

[Antti J Ylikoski]

Thank you, but that works for Unix & Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.

I recommend others to attempt to converse with that JavaScript Mentifex
and evaluate it themselves. Most of the time it does not seem to give
very fitting answers..............

yours, AJY

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:

> 27.10.2011 16:08, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
>> Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:
>>
>>> 26.10.2011 21:12, Mentifex kirjoitti:
>>>> On Oct 26, 5:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> First off, please be advised that over 25 and 26.OCT.2011 I
>>>> have labored exhaustively to bring the JavaScript AI (JSAI) at
>>>>
>>>> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>>>>
>>>> up on a par with the 32-bit or 64-bit MindForth AI.
>>>> Therefore Lisp programmers no longer need to
>>>> download Forth and run MindForth to see how the
>>>> AI mind learns, thinks and remembers.
>>>>
>>>>> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly
>>>>> exceeding ELIZA's capabilities?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Where can I see this JSAI Mentifex' source code, I would like to ask.
>>>
>>> I attempted to carry out a conversation with this JavaScript Mentifex,
>>> but I cannot evaluate it on that evidence alone. It was not a very
>>> fluent companion in the discussion, anyway.
>>>
>>> yours, A. J. Y, attempting not to troll this group but carry out a
>>> scientific discussion.............
>>>
>>
>> wget http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html&& emacs AiMind.html
>>
>
> Thank you, but that works for Unix & Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.

On Windows, start by downloading and installing cygwin

http://cygwin.com/setup.exe

Be sure to select wget and emacs when you install cygwin packages, then
launch a cygwin shell and:

wget http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html&& emacs AiMind.html

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-27, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> Thank you, but that works for Unix & Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.

Yet you're able to maintain a self-image as a researcher in the field of
computing. :)

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:58:43 +0300

Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:

> 27.10.2011 16:08, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
> > Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:
> >
> >> 26.10.2011 21:12, Mentifex kirjoitti:
> >>> On Oct 26, 5:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> >>>> [...]
> >>>
> >>> First off, please be advised that over 25 and 26.OCT.2011 I
> >>> have labored exhaustively to bring the JavaScript AI (JSAI) at
> >>>
> >>> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
> >>>
> >>> up on a par with the 32-bit or 64-bit MindForth AI.
> >>> Therefore Lisp programmers no longer need to
> >>> download Forth and run MindForth to see how the
> >>> AI mind learns, thinks and remembers.
> >>>
> >>>> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly
> >>>> exceeding ELIZA's capabilities?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Where can I see this JSAI Mentifex' source code, I would like to ask.
> >>
> >> I attempted to carry out a conversation with this JavaScript Mentifex,
> >> but I cannot evaluate it on that evidence alone. It was not a very
> >> fluent companion in the discussion, anyway.
> >>
> >> yours, A. J. Y, attempting not to troll this group but carry out a
> >> scientific discussion.............
> >>
> >
> > wget http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html&& emacs AiMind.html
> >
>
> Thank you, but that works for Unix & Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.

Point browser at http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html and
select View/Page Source (or whatever the equivalent is on your browser),
or use File/Save Page As and then open it in a text editor.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Richard Cornford]

Antti J Ylikoski wrote:
> 27.10.2011 16:08, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
>> Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:

<snip>

>>> Where can I see this JSAI Mentifex' source code, I would like
>>> to ask.
>>>
>>> I attempted to carry out a conversation with this JavaScript
>>> Mentifex, but I cannot evaluate it on that evidence alone.
>>> It was not a very fluent companion in the discussion, anyway.
>>>
>>> yours, A. J. Y, attempting not to troll this group but carry
>>> out a scientific discussion.............
>>>
>>
>> wget http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html&& emacs AiMind.html
>>
>
> Thank you, but that works for Unix & Linux, and I'm using the
> Windows 7.

In the case of the code associated with that URL the javascript source
is within the HTML source, so if you load it into IE, right click and
select "View Source" from the context menu a window will open showing
the source (containing the javascript), which can then be saved (and a
very similar procedure will be available on most other browsers, even if
they won't necessarily be able to execute the javascript (because it is
written to be very IE specific)).

On the other hand, once you have the source code the most useful thing
you could do with it is delete it.
As an example of javascript code it has no merits, and its shortcomings
in other areas are self-evident.

> I recommend others to attempt to converse with that JavaScript
> Mentifex and evaluate it themselves.

Well, I suppose it won't waste that much time to determine that it
gibbers incoherently for yourself.

> Most of the time it does not seem to give very fitting
> answers..............

And the rest of the time any 'fitting' answers are probably down to
coincidence. Didn't someone mention confirmation bias?

Richard.

[Mentifex]

On Oct 27, 10:42 am, "Richard Cornford" <Rich...@litotes.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> In the case of the code associated with that URL the javascript source
> is within the HTML source, so if you load it into IE, right click and
> select "View Source" from the context menu a window will open showing
> the source (containing the javascript), which can then be saved (and a
> very similar procedure will be available on most other browsers, even if
> they won't necessarily be able to execute the javascript (because it is
> written to be very IE specific)).

And Netizens who "save" the AiMind.html source code
to an HTML file are invited to host successive versions
of the AI Mind.html on their own website.

>
> On the other hand, once you have the source code the most
> useful thing you could do with it is delete it.

Ouch! Et tu, Richard? (Richard and I go way back, to 2004.)

> As an example of javascript code it has no merits, and
> its shortcomings in other areas are self-evident.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.ai.nat-lang/msg/5921ee40ae0b94aa
on "Self-Rejuvenating Immortal Artificial Intelligence" in 2004
may be the time and place when Richard Cornford lost confidence
in Mentifex AI. Nevertheless I have a high regard for Richard
Cornford's knowledge and expertise in all things JavaScript.
Le tout Internet may despise Mentifex AI, but Richard Cornford
is too important a netgod for me to give up on. People who
click on the above link and read the discussion back in 2004
may see that Richard Cornford complained about "global variables"
being used (back then) in the JavaScript AI. A year or two ago,
I "deglobalized" most of the global variable in MindForth and in
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html for Internet Explorer.

AJY:

> > I recommend others to attempt to converse with that JavaScript
> > Mentifex and evaluate it themselves.
>
> Well, I suppose it won't waste that much time to determine that it
> gibbers incoherently for yourself.

It no longer gibbers! It uses simple sentences of the
Subject-Predicate-Object (SPO) variety.

>
> > Most of the time it does not seem to give very fitting
> > answers..............
>
> And the rest of the time any 'fitting' answers are probably down to
> coincidence. Didn't someone mention confirmation bias?
>
> Richard.

Right now the JSAI is having problems with the WhatBe()
module, which holds onto any new noun and asks a
question about it. I am correcting the deficiencies.

Bye for now,

Arthur T. Murray

[Antti J Ylikoski]

27.10.2011 19:17, Kaz Kylheku kirjoitti:
> On 2011-10-27, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:

>> Thank you, but that works for Unix& Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.

>
> Yet you're able to maintain a self-image as a researcher in the field of
> computing. :)

Do you seriously think that Windows users are not researchers whereas
Unix/Linux users are researchers?

Well I have written some internationally published papers, (in the ACM
SIGACT NEWS), one Master of Science thesis (a prototype expert system
for the diagnosis of the feedwater system of a nuclear power plant) and
the manuscript of a doctoral dissertation. And a number of magazine
articles, also for organizations such as the Mensa and the International
Society for Philosophical Enquiry (a Mensa-like organization, the
entrance requirement being IQ > 172 in the Cattell&Cattell test), and
some others.............

Look for my autobiography in the Marquis' and the International
Biographical Center's Who's Who in the World etc etc. books.

I could honestly call myself a scientist, I think.

yours sincerely, A. J. Y.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

Arthur I would like to ask:

* What kind of a background do you have in AI.

* What kind of a theory is this Mentifex program based on.

It would significantly increase the credibility of the Mentifex if you
can mention to me some academic credentials.

And, if the program is not based on a theory ..... (the conclusion is
highly evident.)

[Espen Vestre]

Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:

> Do you seriously think that Windows users are not researchers whereas
> Unix/Linux users are researchers?

Of course you can use any operating system you want and still be a
researcher, but the fact that Windows is your main operating system
shouldn't stop you from trying linux-based tools - why not install
Virtualbox and Ubuntu on your Windows machine?
--
(espen)

[Mentifex]

On Oct 27, 2:39 pm, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>
> Arthur I would like to ask:
>
> * What kind of a background do you have in AI.

Since I was a teen-ager I have been an
“independent scholar” in artificial intelligence
and as such in 2002 I published the
http://www.chatbots.org/book/ai4u/
volume describing the Mentifex AI project.

>
> * What kind of a theory is this Mentifex program based on.

As an undergraduate in Latin and Greek classics
at the University of Washington in Seattle, I
was reading Plato in the original Greek and I
was deeply impressed with the “De Anima”
by Aristotle on the nature of the mind. But I
was already far along in my independent AI
project, experimenting with electromechanical
relays to build switching circuits and alife.

http://mind.sourceforge.net/theory5.html
is a statement of the AI theory that took
me thirteen years to develop, also on-line at
http://code.google.com/p/mindforth/wiki/BrainTheory
as part of the MindForth project wiki.

>
> It would significantly increase the credibility
> of the Mentifex if you can mention to me some
> academic credentials.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mentifex
shows my BA-in-classics education at

• Georg-August-Universität Göttingen
• University of California, Berkeley
• University of Washington

>
> And, if the program is not based on a theory .....
> (the conclusion is highly evident.)

The AI Mind program is so emphatically based on
a theory that I draw my very confidence in coding
the AI from my eagerness to implement the theory.

Currently the Mentifex AI Minds in Forth
and in JavaScript can both comprehend
and think simple English thoughts in
four different formats, with examples:
Subject – Predicate – Object (SPO): “Bears eat honey.”
Negated SPO: “Bears do not eat computers.”
Verbs of being: “I am a person.”
Negated be-verbs: “I am not a monster.”

> yours sincerely, A. J. Y.

Equally sincerely, A. T. M.
--
http://aimind-i.com
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-27, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> 27.10.2011 19:17, Kaz Kylheku kirjoitti:
>> On 2011-10-27, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>>> Thank you, but that works for Unix& Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.
>>
>> Yet you're able to maintain a self-image as a researcher in the field of
>> computing. :)
>
> Do you seriously think that Windows users are not researchers whereas
> Unix/Linux users are researchers?

No. The same goes for someone complaining that some academic code only runs on
operating system X; why don't they have version for my pet operating system Y.

I'm just showing you what this situation might look like.

Let's put it this way. The observation that you balk at trying code that is not
ported to the operating system installed your PC suggests that you only read
papers (and cut and paste citations out of them), but don't actually work with
any of their code, except when it happens to be packaged run on that operating
system. Can you see how that does not "look good"?

Regardless of the above being unfair, cynical, judgmental, not proceeding
deductively from verifiable premises, etc, that's what some people will think.

The world operates on flimsy perceptions.

> Well I have written some internationally published papers, (in the ACM
> SIGACT NEWS), one Master of Science thesis (a prototype expert system
> for the diagnosis of the feedwater system of a nuclear power plant) and
> the manuscript of a doctoral dissertation. And a number of magazine
> articles, also for organizations such as the Mensa and the International
> Society for Philosophical Enquiry (a Mensa-like organization, the
> entrance requirement being IQ > 172 in the Cattell&Cattell test), and
> some others.............

Lovely academic credentials!

Yet here you are, being pulled by a string held by an Internet troll, who's
been trying to get some Eliza program going for several decades now.

On the one hand there is "IQ > 172" (congratulations), and on the other there
is something called "street smarts".

Don't let your obvious curiosity and intelligence be worked against you by
knaves.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

I actually tried this. I could not utilize this software configuration,
because of several problems.

I don't any more remember all the problems that I had with Virtualbox
and Ubuntu -- one problem that I had was the fact that my anti-virus
program assumed that the VirtualBox was a virus and repeatedly removed
the VirtualBox from my machine.

Finally I gave up attempting to use VirtualBox and Ubuntu.

yours, A. J. Y.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

Did you notice that I asked him, is the program based on a theory.

If it turns out that it is not based on a theory... You can see the
implications of that. Then it is an ELIZA clone with elaborate hacks.

I said I feel interested towards the Mentifex similarly to what I would
think of a new Prolog interpreter. The human brain has some 10 to the
11th power neurons, every one of them is connected to thousands of
others. This is the kind of complexity that one must create to make a
truly human-level AI to my opinion. The curiosity killed the cat...........

regards, Andy

[Antti J Ylikoski]

OK, I see.

Anyway -- one of the AI people here said that an individual with no
academic, scientific background in Artificial Intelligence is very
unlikely to make any real scientific breakthroughs (quote having been
paraphased by me).

I agree with that individual.

If you want to have the Mentifex taken seriously by all, I recommend
that you first read:

#1. Artificial Intelligence, Sixth Edition, by George F. Luger, ISBN
978-0-321-54589-3

#2. Artificial Intelligence, A Modern Approach, 3rd Edition, by
Russell-Norvig, ISBN 978-0-13-604259-4

#3. Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, by Peter Norvig,
ISBN 978-1-55860-191-8

for a very, very basic understanding of modern AI research -- and if you
want to delve into this deeper than the surface so to speak, get and
read the AAAI conference and the IJCAI conference proceedings e. g. from
the year 2005 on. After that you can have a more solid look at this
Mentifex program.

yours, A. J. Y.

[Antti J Ylikoski]

And: Join the Association for the Advancement of Artificial
Intelligence, http://www.aaai.org .

Andy

[BruceMcF]

On Oct 26, 4:11 pm, van...@vsta.org wrote:
> The really amazing scientific result is that you can do this, posting
> periodically about your program for all ten or twenty years, and you'll
> *still* get responses every single time you post.

Yes, with bipeds, this would be amazing, but I believe that hexapodia
is the key insight here, and among hexapods, this is far more to be
expected.

> I make no claims about the scientific ramifications of this "AI"
> work, but the sociological implications of always getting a
> response are profound.

Given that you are one of the respondents, you can even study the
matter introspectively.

[Espen Vestre]

And you never considered replacing your anti virus system?
--
(espen)

[Antony]

On 10/27/2011 2:32 PM, Antti J Ylikoski wrote:
> Well I have written some internationally published papers, (in the ACM
> SIGACT NEWS), one Master of Science thesis (a prototype expert system
> for the diagnosis of the feedwater system of a nuclear power plant) and
> the manuscript of a doctoral dissertation. And a number of magazine
> articles, also for organizations such as the Mensa and the International
> Society for Philosophical Enquiry (a Mensa-like organization, the
> entrance requirement being IQ > 172 in the Cattell&Cattell test), and
> some others.............
>

This particular page source even happens to have javascript inline with
the HTML.

In most browsers right clicking on the page and doing a view source
should show you the code. AFAIK this has feature been available in
browsers since 1998 if not earlier

-Antony

[John G Harris]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 at 22:47:02, in comp.lang.javascript, BruceMcF
wrote:

>On Oct 26, 4:11�pm, van...@vsta.org wrote:
>> The really amazing scientific result is that you can do this, posting
>> periodically about your program for all ten or twenty years, and you'll
>> *still* get responses every single time you post.
>
>Yes, with bipeds, this would be amazing, but I believe that hexapodia
>is the key insight here, and among hexapods, this is far more to be
>expected.

<snip>

Are you speaking for Twirlip of the Mists?

John
--
John Harris

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Antti J Ylikoski replied off-topic across 4 newsgroups without Followup-To
to a posting of Arthur T. "Mentifex" Murray despite being notified several
times before:

> […]

Which part of "Do not feed the troll" do you need tatooed on the container
of your malfunctioning brain simulation?

*plonk*


F'up2 set appropriately

[Antti J Ylikoski]

See my entry about "Kritik der reinen Mentifex".

I wanted to see this program and its world. It is not real good novel
research, after getting to know what it contains... But I just wanted to
see this thing, is it good for anything. As I said, like a new Prolog
interpreter.

Building a model of the human brain after Aristotle is not a good
scientific idea. It's like making skyscrapers after Egyptian pyramids
(there is one I recall in Los Angeles.....)

andy

[Michael Moeller]

Considering things infra dig almost always is the wrong attitude. On
the other hand I'm afraid so called "AI" can be judged only on a
philosophical level. The real problem is not how to create "AI", it's
how to prevent people from worshipping computers.

Regards
Michael

[Antti J Ylikoski]

26.10.2011 21:21, BruceMcF kirjoitti:
> On Oct 26, 8:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>> See with the Google, Joseph Weizenbaum's ELIZA program and its numerous
>> reincarnations in multiple languages, even in early microcomputer
>> BASIC.
>
>> If you can use the GNU Emacs then the ELIZA (the original version) can
>> be started with the command M-x doctor .

>
>> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly exceeding ELIZA's
>> capabilities?
>

> Start with an Eliza-like program in Forth. Tinker with it for ten to
> twenty years. Add strong confirmation bias. Voila, AI.
>

> However, the core flaw is the bipedalism assumption. I believe that
> hexapodia is the key insight, here.

But the best flash of insight are the Chiroptera.

("E-mail has bugs. Lepidoptera.")

andy

[BruceMcF]

On Oct 28, 6:03 am, John G Harris <j...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 at 22:47:02, in comp.lang.javascript, BruceMcF
> wrote:>On Oct 26, 4:11 pm, van...@vsta.org wrote:

>>> The really amazing scientific result is that you can do this, posting
>>> periodically about your program for all ten or twenty years,
>>> and you'll *still* get responses every single time you post.

>>Yes, with bipeds, this would be amazing, but I believe that hexapodia
>>is the key insight here, and among hexapods, this is far more to be
>>expected.

> Are you speaking for Twirlip of the Mists?

Of course: standing on the shoulders of giants, and etc. Once one
realizes that the intended users of the Mentifex system are hexapods,
much that is obscure clears up.

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-28, Antony <remove+spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In most browsers right clicking on the page and doing a view source
> should show you the code. AFAIK this has feature been available in
> browsers since 1998 if not earlier

Maybe his anti-virus program ate it.

[Michael Moeller]

I'm far from judging Mentifex but I'm afraid from a Prolog point of
view this looks quite familiar. I'd like to suggest reading the
textbooks by Bratko and O'Keefe and working through "Computing with
Logic" by Maier & Warren which is a must read in any case.
In my opinion a 'thinking' program (whatever this may be) has to
provide a solution by means not inherent to code or data, an approach a
human being is capable of. I'm aware we cross the line to philisophy
here and numerous documents exist discussing this. Please refer to
Minsky and Dennet, for example. Anyway, "AI" is the most misleading and
deceptive term in computer science and I'm afraid we won't get far by
just faking human behavior.

Regrads,
Michael

[John G Harris]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 at 11:07:27, in comp.lang.javascript, BruceMcF

wrote:
>On Oct 28, 6:03 am, John G Harris <j...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 at 22:47:02, in comp.lang.javascript, BruceMcF
>> wrote:>On Oct 26, 4:11 pm, van...@vsta.org wrote:
>
>>>> The really amazing scientific result is that you can do this, posting
>>>> periodically about your program for all ten or twenty years,
>>>> and you'll *still* get responses every single time you post.
>
>>>Yes, with bipeds, this would be amazing, but I believe that hexapodia
>>>is the key insight here, and among hexapods, this is far more to be
>>>expected.
>
>> Are you speaking for Twirlip of the Mists?
>
>Of course: standing on the shoulders of giants, and etc. Once one
>realizes that the intended users of the Mentifex system are hexapods,
>much that is obscure clears up.

Wowee! I see ... Yes that does indeed clear it up.

John
--
John Harris

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-28, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> If you want to have the Mentifex taken seriously by all, I recommend
> that you first read:

Bad doctor! Check patient's file for known allergies before prescribing
medicine.

[Rob Warnock]

BruceMcF <agi...@netscape.net> wrote:
+---------------

| John G Harris <j...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

| > BruceMcF wrote:
| >> van...@vsta.org wrote:
| >>> ...and you'll *still* get responses every single time you post.

|
| >>Yes, with bipeds, this would be amazing, but I believe that hexapodia
| >>is the key insight here, and among hexapods, this is far more to be
| >>expected.
|
| > Are you speaking for Twirlip of the Mists?
|
| Of course: standing on the shoulders of giants, and etc. Once one
| realizes that the intended users of the Mentifex system are hexapods,
| much that is obscure clears up.

+---------------

Speaking of clearing up obscure details, after "only" 19.5 years the
sequel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_the_Sky> is out. *Yippee!*
[Warning! Wikipedia article contains spoilers!] It takes place on the
Tines' World, starting two years after The Battle of Starship Hill.
Among other things, we learn interesting new details about the fabled
Tropical Choir. [And get hints that the Blight Fleet might not be dead,
only stalled a few decades away by ramscoop -- a shark in the dark, as
it were. "Da-dump da-dump da-dump..." ;-} ]

It's an o.k. read, IMHO, though nowhere as good as the aFUtD, of course.
And it just cries out for another sequel (or two!!), which I certainly
hope *won't* take another two decades!! [Especially given that I am very
skeptical that the Vingean Singularity will hit takeoff anytime soon enough
to help *either* VV or me! :-{ ]


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock <rp...@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403

[Walter Bushell]

In article <R76dnWjcwafacjDT...@speakeasy.net>,

rp...@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:

> It's an o.k. read, IMHO, though nowhere as good as the aFUtD, of course.
> And it just cries out for another sequel (or two!!), which I certainly
> hope *won't* take another two decades!! [Especially given that I am very
> skeptical that the Vingean Singularity will hit takeoff anytime soon enough
> to help *either* VV or me! :-{ ]
>

No Singularity for us because we are in the Slow Zone.

--
It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant
and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting. -- H. L. Mencken

[Antti J Ylikoski]

That would have been too much trouble. Actually, right now I'm trying
to fix the anti virus system.

andy

[Antti J Ylikoski]

A little Off Topic, ref: Prolog -- I have the following Prolog books in
my bookshelf:

Ivan Bratko, PROLOG Programming for Artificial Intelligence
Clocksin-Mellish: Programming in Prolog
Richard O'Keefe: The Craft of Prolog
Sterling-Shapiro: The Art of Prolog

I wrote this for those of our readers who are interested in getting to
know Prolog better (but I'm not saying that I were very knowledgeable
about logic programming, I'm not, it is a nice tool anyway, in
particular it is very easy to write small expert system shells and
prototype expert systems in Prolog.)

Andy

PS. I think that the science of AI is about reseaching quite general,
unconstrained unlimited intelligence in humans, in machines, in slugs,
everything that can and could exist to carry a mind.

Idem

[Arno Welzel]

Antti J Ylikoski, 2011-10-27 15:58:

> 27.10.2011 16:08, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
>> Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:
>>

>>> 26.10.2011 21:12, Mentifex kirjoitti:
>>>> On Oct 26, 5:13 am, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> First off, please be advised that over 25 and 26.OCT.2011 I
>>>> have labored exhaustively to bring the JavaScript AI (JSAI) at
>>>>
>>>> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html
>>>>
>>>> up on a par with the 32-bit or 64-bit MindForth AI.
>>>> Therefore Lisp programmers no longer need to
>>>> download Forth and run MindForth to see how the
>>>> AI mind learns, thinks and remembers.

>>>>
>>>>> Can the Mentifex program do something significantly
>>>>> exceeding ELIZA's capabilities?
>>>>
>>>

>>> Where can I see this JSAI Mentifex' source code, I would like to ask.
>>>
>>> I attempted to carry out a conversation with this JavaScript Mentifex,
>>> but I cannot evaluate it on that evidence alone. It was not a very
>>> fluent companion in the discussion, anyway.
>>>
>>> yours, A. J. Y, attempting not to troll this group but carry out a
>>> scientific discussion.............
>>>
>>
>> wget http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html&& emacs AiMind.html
>>
>
> Thank you, but that works for Unix & Linux, and I'm using the Windows 7.

"View Source" in your Browser. The whole JavaScript stuff is within the
HTML document.

> I recommend others to attempt to converse with that JavaScript Mentifex

> and evaluate it themselves. Most of the time it does not seem to give
> very fitting answers..............

Yep - because it's not "AI", it's just a simple JavaScript.


--
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

[Arno Welzel]

Antti J Ylikoski, 2011-10-27 23:39:

> 27.10.2011 22:39, Mentifex kirjoitti:
[...]
>> Right now the JSAI is having problems with the WhatBe()
>> module, which holds onto any new noun and asks a
>> question about it. I am correcting the deficiencies.
>>
>> Bye for now,
>>
>> Arthur T. Murray

>
>
> Arthur I would like to ask:
>
> * What kind of a background do you have in AI.
>

> * What kind of a theory is this Mentifex program based on.

Have a look at <http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html> - this
should answer your questions.

[Brad]

On Nov 11, 2:34 am, Arno Welzel <use...@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
>
> Have a look at <http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html> - this
> should answer your questions.
>

This seems to be a common theme among trolls. Their egos are tied to
their ideas so they refuse to subject their ideas to criticism lest
the slightest breeze of reality blow them over.

When I was very young, we would build forts out of the furniture
cushions. Our favorite part was destructive testing because it meant
we could build yet another fort.

-Brad