Help with on obit please - Victorina Rosa

[Diane]

I know that my GGGrandmother from Urzelina died somewhere between 1853 and 1863. I have searched the registers many times and the only record that shows the names of her and her husband in any format is the following. 3rd par on right.

 

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858_item1/P45.html

 

Her husband was Christiano Machado Pereira. This Victorina seems to have a different middle name but the rest all adds up - parish etc.  and the names are relatively uncommon. She had a child in February of 1853 and this death is in September I think.  Christiano remarried in 1863 to her sister Perpetua.

 

Can anyone please confirm whether this is the likely record I have been looking for. If not, would it appear in another place when all the family's other records are in Urzelina?

 

thank you

Diane Donnon

[BaltarFamily]

Diane,

The record is about the death of Victorina Constancia, married to
Christiano Machado. She was only 24 years old when she passed on 16 of
September of 1853, and was buried at the local Parish cemetery (São
Matheus - Urzelina).

Isabella Baltar
myportuguesegen.blogspot.com

On Oct 31, 6:09 pm, Diane <ddon...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> I know that my GGGrandmother from Urzelina died somewhere between 1853 and
> 1863. I have searched the registers many times and the only record that
> shows the names of her and her husband in any format is the following. 3rd
> par on right.
>

> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-...

[Margaret Vicente]

Diane,

On the 16th day of the month of September of the year 1853 passed away Victoria Constancia who was the wife of Christiano Machado with all the sacraments at 28 years of age more or less.

Margaret Vicente

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Margaret M Vicente

[Diane]

thank you Margaret. I am even now more confused because my Victorina Rosa, who died around this time and was married to Christiano Machado Pereira, would have been 28 when she died and she belonged to that parish.  So all the information is there except "Constancia" second name. She was Victorina Rosa on her marriage record but I have found other records where the women have been known by different middle names  It's a bit of a mystery but I am still suspicious about this one. Everything else seems to fit and I can't find her anywhere else.

 

The Pereira could have been left off Christiano's name because he picked that up somewhere along the line. Victorina's father was a Machado too.

[Cheri Mello]

Diane D,

It's probably her.  Do you find any other Victorina (Rosa or Constancia) having babies with another Cristiano Machado (or Machado Pereira)?  If you don't find another Cristiano/Vitorina couple, then that's your Vitorina's obit.  You can also look for Cristiano's 2nd marriage and see what they call Vitorina (he'll be a widower of Vitorina ___).  You have her on all the kids' baptisms as Vitorina Constancia?  What about all of her biological grandkids?  How do they list her at their baptism?
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Margaret Vicente]

Diane,

A genealogist may have some recommendations but I would start by
searching for her birth record to confirm parents. Check for this
couple's children's birth records starting from Sep 16th, date of her
death which could have been due to childbirth. You may be able to
obtain information from godparents names that could point in the right
direction. Also their marriage record if you don't already have it.

Middle names are a marker but not always accurate. I have a ggmother
that ended up with 3 different middle names.

Margaret

On 11/1/12, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> thank you Margaret. I am even now more confused because my Victorina Rosa,
> who died around this time and was married to Christiano Machado Pereira,
> would have been 28 when she died and she belonged to that parish. So all
> the information is there except "Constancia" second name. She was Victorina
>
> Rosa on her marriage record but I have found other records where the women
> have been known by different middle names It's a bit of a mystery but I am
>
> still suspicious about this one. Everything else seems to fit and I can't
> find her anywhere else.
>
> The Pereira could have been left off Christiano's name because he picked
> that up somewhere along the line. Victorina's father was a Machado too.
>
>
> On Thursday, 1 November 2012 11:50:36 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote:
>
>> Diane,
>>
>> On the 16th day of the month of September of the year 1853 passed away
>> Victoria Constancia who was the wife of Christiano Machado with all the
>> sacraments at 28 years of age more or less.
>>
>> Margaret Vicente
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Diane

>> <ddo...@bigpond.net.au<javascript:>

>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I know that my GGGrandmother from Urzelina died somewhere between 1853
>>> and 1863. I have searched the registers many times and the only record
>>> that
>>> shows the names of her and her husband in any format is the following.
>>> 3rd
>>> par on right.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858_item1/P45.html
>>>
>>> Her husband was Christiano Machado Pereira. This Victorina seems to have
>>>
>>> a different middle name but the rest all adds up - parish etc. and the
>>> names are relatively uncommon. She had a child in February of 1853 and
>>> this
>>> death is in September I think. Christiano remarried in 1863 to her
>>> sister
>>> Perpetua.
>>>
>>> Can anyone please confirm whether this is the likely record I have been
>>> looking for. If not, would it appear in another place when all the
>>> family's
>>> other records are in Urzelina?
>>>
>>> thank you
>>> Diane Donnon
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

>>> Azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. Follow the confirmation

[Marcio Borba]

It is your Vitorina. It was common for women to used diferent second names. I have seen this way to often to say it is unusual. I read her age as being 28 Marcio Borba Feel the Azores... visit http://azorean-roots.blogspot.com --- Em qua, 31/10/12, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au> escreveu:

--

[Isabella Baltar]

I don't know where I came up with 24, its clear 28 as Margaret said.
Isabella

[Diane]

Thank you to Cheri, Marcio and Mara for your replies. I do have most of those other records and the only thing that didn't fit was "Constancia". She is "Rosa" on her marriage and the baptism of her sons in 1850 and 1853. On her baptism and Christiano's second marriage record, she is just Victorina. The age at death on this obit is correct for my Victorina too - 28. I don't see those names appearing together anywhere else.

 

Does the name Constancia have any significant meaning? It may have meant something to the family after she died??

 

Victorina may have had grandchildren born in the Azores to her second son. I haven't found them yet.  My line were all born in Sydney and those records do not show grandparents. When her son Joaquim married in Sydney in 1884 (after living together for years) his parents are stated as Victoria Rosa and Christian Mitchell (Mitchell was Joaquim's new assumed surname name in Australia). I knew that his mother died when he was a child and that he had a stepmother and we still have the letters she wrote to him from Urzelina - signed off as Perpetua Rosa (she was Victorina's sister and their mother was Victorina de Jesus from Urzelina).

 

It all seems very sad, but I too think I have the right one because there is no other Victorina obit in that time period that I can see.

 

On further question: Was it common for couples to live together outside of marriage in those villages? This family of mine were very devout Catholics and if this is the right Victorina, it means that Christiano was single with 2 very young children for about 10 years before he remarried.

 

Thanks again.

Diane Donnon

South Autralia

[Diane]

Sorry this may have beem misleading. I meant that she was "Victorina Rosa" on her marriage and the baptism of her sons.

 

Diane

[Diane]

I think I have just made the link that confirms that she is the same person. there is a notation in the margin of her son's baptism record and appears to be the recording of her death. Being new to this research I  had not taken much notice of it before. It appears to be 16 Sept ?? which is the same date as the obit of Victorina Constancia. Can anyone please confirm the date on this notation.

 

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P65.html

 

I also looked up the meaning of Constancia and found it means steadfast.

 

thank  you

Diane

[Margaret Vicente]

No, that's not it Diane. 

1a. certidao em 16 de Outubro 1871.   Translated - First certificate on 16-Oct-1871

I also found this, don't if you already have manuel's birth record, child of Christiano and Victorina.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P88.html

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Margaret M Vicente

[Diane]

Hi Margaret

 

What does the notation mean then? does it mean that this Victorina died in 1871??? Please excuse my ignorance, still learning.

 

 thanks for the link - yes I already had that one.

 

Diane

[Margaret Vicente]

Diane,

First to clarify my 1871? 1877. It means I'm not sure if it reads
1871 or 1877 because the writing was too small and faded.

Priests side notes on baptismal records are related to the person the
record belongs to, in this case, the child, Manuel. He could have
needed a proof of birth or baptism for marriage, sometimes the army or
ID card/passport, if no civil records available or, in the case of him
having been predeceased a proof of his birth record would be required
by the family for legal matters i.e. inheritances.

Standard notes on birth records are:

certificate - issued for various personal reasons, ie. marriage,
inheritance, ID cards, passports etc. This certificate may be issued
at various time periods if proof of birth is required for legal
matters in the future and that is why the priests numbered them.

other notes: marriage and/or death of the individual, usually showing
date of marriage or death, with file/archive numbers and signed by the
priest.

Anything related to Victorina would be noted on Victorina's baptismal record.

Hope this helps,
Margaret Vicente

On 11/2/12, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Hi Margaret
>
> What does the notation mean then? does it mean that this Victorina died in
> 1871??? Please excuse my ignorance, still learning.
>
> thanks for the link - yes I already had that one.
>
> Diane
>
>
> On Friday, 2 November 2012 11:25:25 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote:
>
>> No, that's not it Diane.
>>
>> 1a. certidao em 16 de Outubro 1871. Translated - First certificate on
>> 16-Oct-1871
>>
>> I also found this, don't if you already have manuel's birth record, child
>>
>> of Christiano and Victorina.
>>
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P88.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au

>> <javascript:>

>>> Azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. Follow the confirmation

[Diane]

 

That is a great help thank you Margaret

 

I think that my GGrandfather Joaquim left Sao Jorge in around 1870 and his brother Manuel was 3 years younger, so maybe the certificate is about a passport. Or, as you say, his marriage if it is 1877. I will search the marriages for Manuel. It was not inheritance because Joaquim as the elder son was asked (by mail) to deal with the estate when his father died in 1881. We don't know what happened. Am I correct in that there is no record of these certificates? Also I believe that passports for that time are not digitised as yet.

 

I read some history written by Robert L Santos, a librarian and archivist at the California State Univ. He mentions how the American whaling industry provided an opportunity for young men to leave the Azores, often to escape conscription. He relates a witness account (early 1870s) of how young men from Sao Jorge climbed down the cliffs and were taken off the island during the night. An English brig had taken off 80 on one particular night. ???

 

My mother remembered her grandfather Joaquim and said he was a sailor who took cattle across to Hawaii.  I think he was probably one of the "escapees" mentioned in these stories, so there would be no passport for him - and there is no record of his immigration to Aust. The first record is the birth of his first child in 1878 in Sydney. By then he was no longer called Joaquim, but Anthony Mitchell and he was working on the wharves in Sydney.

 

Now to look for Manuel. I am almost sure now that this obit is our Victorina (mother of Joaquim and Manuel) - right age, right husband, right first name, right time span,right parish. It all fits.

 

I am grateful for that new information.

 

Regards

Diane Donnon

South Australia

[Margaret Vicente]

Hi,

These certificates were in the form of a piece of paper and I don't imagine there is a registry for it.  And that's correct, only Sao Miguel has passports on line and they start in 1875.  It's a difficult task to trace whalers.  Have you considered the possibility he entered the USA first before going to Australia. 

Those stories are amazing feats of bravery of ancestors.

Cheers,

Mara

[Diane]

Hi Mara

 

Yes he could have gone to the USA first but my Grandma never mentioned anywhere by Hawaii and I know from my research that there were many, many whaling boats in the harbours at that time. Also the fact that he had no trouble changing his name means that it's hard to know who to look for. I only have his real name through the letters written to him by his stepmother in the Azores. I cannot even be sure about which port he entered into Australia because none of the indexes show him.

 

I just wonder what made him choose Australia when most of his peers seemed to stay in the US. Yes I have many amazing stories of my Australian pioneer ancestors on my father's side, dating back to the arrival of the First Fleet. Also an American 3xgreat-grandfather from Baltimore. That one is a bigger challenge again. This newly discovered Azorean ancestry is the icing on the cake as we say.

 

Regards

Diane 

[Margaret Vicente]

Hello Diane,

My ggfather went to Africa from Sao Miguel at 20 years of age, a newlywed with a good reason to return, his wife.  When I look at the passports it showed only 3 men leaving for Africa...why did he do it? We can only guess.

I found this link http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/resources/family-history/info-guides/immigration Perhaps you're familiar with it but if not it might be a good resource for your search.

Take care,

Mara

[Diane]

Hi Mara

 

What year did  your GGrandfather go to Africa? Where did you get the passports? Maybe they went to Africa for work. Was there any particular gold mining or the like I wonder. Just a thought.

 

Thanks for the link to the Qland gov. site. I haven't looked at the Qland records for a while and it seems to be updated. I see they have electoral rolls for the time but they are on CD ROM. I will give them a call and see if I can access them without travelling to Qland. Joaquim's wife, my GGrandma, actually lived in Qland  after immigrating from Denmark. She was married there to her Danish boyfriend and never divorced. This is why I think that Joaquim probably was in Qland too: they "disappeared" down to Sydney and took on a new name. Can't find what happened to her first husband - anywhere.

 

Such fun. All these skeletons in the closet and to think that my parents and grandparents didn't know about the things we are now finding out.

 

Diane

[Margaret Vicente]

Hi Diane, 

My ggfather's name was Jose de Medeiros, passport was issued Sep 20 1897, # 510, passenger # 1038 and it is on line at the cca site. This GGF also after having returned from Africa showed up with an additional last name "Salgadinho".  I was sent on a wild goose chase when I started the families' genealogical research and spent countless hours going over the films at the family centre looking for his birth record and going by it many times but always rejecting it because the last name was just Medeiros...until I came across his passport which confirmed his parents were the same as the birth and marriage record.  How do I know it was him, because my Dad used to tell stories of his Grandfather having been in Africa and how he had made his money and that he had died due to a disease he caught while in that country.  Next I wanted to know the reason of his death and after having ordered his obit we found out he died due to "melanoma" in 1940, 43 years after his trip to Africa.

Can't leave any rocks unturned, maybe you too will find some leads.

Take care,

Margaret