17 episodes a last minute decision
roger
"It took rather a long time, longer than it should have done. We were all a
bit punchy by that time but it was worth it. I think Patrick's a very good
writer and a very good director. As it progressed and we got more and more
into it (talking about the series as a whole now), being the man he is and
being the person I try to be, we put everything into it. We worked seven
days a week, sixteen hours a day, and tried to make every episode one
thousand per cent. Eventually it became obvious we couldn't maintain the
pace or the quality in the time that was left - the showing dates were fast
approaching so it was then decided to finish at seventeen episodes."
recorded for "Six Into One - The Prisoner File"; a documentary transmitted
after the final episode of The Prisoner's first Channel 4 run in 1984.
Moor Larkin
*Last Minute*.............
I have read in an American report that McGoohan was working on the
final scripts of The Prisoner whilst he was working on ISZ. The
decision must therefore have been made before he went to Hollywood, at
least. Can you push it any further back?
roger
news:11b3a8cf-c6e9-467c...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> I have read in an American report that McGoohan was working on the
> final scripts of The Prisoner whilst he was working on ISZ. The
> decision must therefore have been made before he went to Hollywood, at
> least.
How accurate are American reports? Were those scripts final, when Patrick
was working on them, or at the time merely further episodes, that eventually
proved to be the last?
> Can you push it any further back?
Not as far back as some would like
:-)
but I thought it useful, in the face of conflicting remarks, to quote the
programme's producer and Everyman co-director on that fact that the decision
to finish at the seventeenth episode was made well into the production.
Slitheen
news:krGdndIjO9j13J7U...@posted.plusnet...
That makes perfect sense to me.....from that it looks like they could have
been aiming for twenty odd episodes, as in an American 'season', and then
cut it short to 17. Otherwise it's a bloody strange number of episodes that
doesn't fit with what was a UK 'series' or an American 'season'.
lewstringer
From The Daily Mirror Feb 3rd 1968:
BRITISH television's most bizarre, baffling and costly series, "The
Prisoner," is coming to an end months before its time.
The final episode — No.17— was screened by I T V in the Midlands last
night and will be shown in London and the South tomorrow. It was
originally planned to run for a further thirteen installments.
Why the abrupt finish to this series which has cost £1,375,000? The
Prisoner himself, actor Patrick McGoohan, told me: “It has knocked me
out. I'm whacked. This is why I’m stopping. I just can’t do any more.”
Rick Davy
"lewstringer" <lew.st...@BTinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bLudndWcZMuPjYrU...@bt.com...
Well found Lew, well that puts that to bed then doesn't it!
Rick
Jill Mills
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:ZKOdnU_B_6OOi4rU...@bt.com...
>
> "lewstringer" <lew.st...@BTinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:bLudndWcZMuPjYrU...@bt.com...
>> Put this in your pipe and smoke it tommy boy:
>>
>> From The Daily Mirror Feb 3rd 1968:
>>
>> BRITISH television's most bizarre, baffling and costly series, "The
>> Prisoner," is coming to an end months before its time.
>> The final episode - No.17- was screened by I T V in the Midlands last
>> night and will be shown in London and the South tomorrow. It was
>> originally planned to run for a further thirteen installments.
>>
>> Why the abrupt finish to this series which has cost £1,375,000? The
>> Prisoner himself, actor Patrick McGoohan, told me: "It has knocked me
>> out. I'm whacked. This is why I'm stopping. I just can't do any more."
>>
>>
>
> Well found Lew, well that puts that to bed then doesn't it!
>
> Rick
>
>
And here are some peanuts, Tomm.
Catch! :-)
Jill
David Catterall
> And here are some peanuts, Tomm.
>
> Catch! :-)
Jill,
Irrespective of what one thinks about the debate on this thread,
that is a fabulous riposte!
'Regards,
David
tommacfearsom
The Washington Post August 4, 1967
'Secret Agent' Star Quitting TV Cold
Mcgoohan has turned down CBS request that he film 36 segments of his
new series "The Prisoner".
"I have completed 13 and will do four more- and then no
more." (Patrick McGoohan)
Time Magazine
The Private I
Friday, Jun. 21, 1968
Like many another television success, McGoohan believes that TV "can
gobble you up and eventually destroy you." For that reason, he made
only 17 episodes of The Prisoner, and now plans to quit TV except for
some documentary productions. Currently, he is with his wife and three
daughters in Switzerland, writing. Where in Switzerland, nobody at the
moment seems to know. Unlike the luckless prisoner, McGoohan has
succeeded in preserving his privacy.
roger
news:b37c97ee-3481-4008...@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> Mcgoohan has turned down CBS request that he film 36 segments of his
> new series "The Prisoner".
And there was you thinking it was 17 from Day 1 when it was really 36 ...
:-)
tommacfearsom
>
> - Show quoted text -
Quotes from the folks in the only position to know anything ( and it
isn't at the "last minute"): ;-)))
Troyer: You didn't initially want to do 17 films?
McGoohan: No, seven, as a serial as opposed to a series. I thought
the
concept of the thing would sustain for only 7, but then Lew Grade
wanted to make his sale to CBS, I believe (first ran it in the
States)
and he said he couldn't make a deal unless he had more, and he wanted
26, and I couldn't conceive of 26 stories, because it would be
spreading it very thin, but we did manage, over a week-end, with my
writers, to cook up ten more outlines, and eventually we did 17, but
it should be 7.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6gPztzkNMQ&feature=related
********************************************************
Washington Post Nov. 19, 1969.
by Kevin Thomas.
"The Prisoner? Well that was an experimental kind of thing for
television. Originally,I wanted to do only seven episodes,but CBS
wouldn't buy it. I stopped at 17. I had had enough.
"I was astonished that it got a sort of faithful audience--better
than
I expected. We never thought of it in terms of an audience of 25 or
30
million." (Patrick Mcgoohan concerning the making of The Prisoner The
Washington Post, Nov. 19, 1969)
********************************************************
Sir Lew Grade
Lew Grade tells in his autobiography that at a very early stage he
had....
"a project called The Prisoner with Patrick McGoohan, and showed
them
a portfolio of pictures of Portmeirion, which was the location we
intended to use. 'At the moment though, Patrick only wants to make 17
episodes', I said. 'how much money do you want?' they asked. I told
them the terms, and they said we had a deal." (page 222)
(Provided by Moor Larkin)
*******************************************************
tommacfearsom
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
The Washington Post August 4, 1967
'Secret Agent' Star Quitting TV Cold
Mcgoohan has turned down CBS request that he film 36 segments of his
new series "The Prisoner".
"I have completed 13 and will do four more- and then no
more." (Patrick McGoohan)
***********************************************************************************
The above Washington Post quote is verbatim. Perhaps the "36" episodes
came from listening to George Markstein begging for "Lew Grade to be
kind". ;-)))
By his own statements Mr. Patrick McGoohan had agreed to produce 17
episodes so Mr. Lew Grade could make his sale to CBS. Michael Dann
purchased only that number (17) and Mr. McGoohan turned down producing
any more than 17 for CBS (and not at the last minute). ;-))
roger
> and eventually we did 17
EVENTUALLY, i.e., not from Day 1.
QED.
Ivor Jones
David Catterall <DJC...@Eircom.net> typed, for some strange, unexplained
reason:
I'll still never understand why people spell his name with 2 m's.
Ivor
tommacfearsom
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:377e5733-7e94-4005...@v16g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > and eventually we did 17
>
> EVENTUALLY, i.e., not from Day 1.
> QED.
Okey ;-))
From Day 1 it should have been "7" and on Day 2 it became 17 so the
Lord (Lew Grade) could make his sale to CBS (because Patrick only
wants to produce 17). ;-)))
Close enough for me (as a fan) and still not any where near the "last
minute". ;-))
roger
news:6nuo65...@mid.individual.net...
> I'll still never understand why people spell his name with 2 m's.
Well, the cheap shot answer would be that most of his posts make the reader
go, "Mm...", but I think it's actually based on his day job, which is trying
to convince the desperate and the deluded that he can talk to the dead:
http://www.skepdic.com/channeling.html
According to Tomm, one of the "entities" that "speaks through" him is Tom
McPherson (or Macfearsom?), an unlikely 16th century "spirit", hence Tomm.
What, of course, this also does is undermine all of Tomm's posts in this
forum, as his day job involves misdirection, cold reading, fishing, bluster,
etc., which he carries into his posts here, making them somewhere between
highly questionable and downright wrong.
With the subject header of 'Did George Markstein NOT Create The Prisoner'
Tomm's most notorious opening post here is:
'After a review of various claims made by George Markstein I now can
almost agree with a statement made by Bernard Williams production
manager for The Prisoner: 'It was all Patrick. George Markstein
contributed ZERO."
Comments?? Information??'
From the blurred negative in the subject header to the use of words like
'claims' and 'almost agree', Tomm sets up a typical fishing expedition,
asking for comments and information, when he, as later posters point out,
has not actually stated any meaningful proposition, let alone substantiate
it, but this is how mediums, channelers, and the like operate.
This, from http://skepdic.com/coldread.html, shows you how it works:
"Many cold readings do not involve fishing, vagueness, or wild guessing. The
key to a successful cold reading is the willingness, ability, and effort of
the client to find meaning and significance in the words of the psychic,
astrologer, palm reader, medium, or the like. A medium claiming to get
messages from the dead might throw out a string of ambiguous images to the
client. Father figure, the month of May, the Big-H, and H with an N sound,
Henna, Henry, M, maybe Michael, teaching, books, maybe something published.
This list could mean different things to different people. To some people it
probably has no meaning. The client will either connect these dots or she
won't. Clients of mediums who claim to get messages from the dead are very
highly motivated clients. Not only do they have an implicit desire for
immortality, they have an explicit desire to contact a dear loved one who
has died. The odds are in favor of the medium that the client will find
meaning in many different sets of ambiguous words and phrases. If she
connects just a couple of them, she may be satisfied that the medium has
made a connection to a dead relative. If she doesn't find any meaning or
significance in the string, the medium still wins. He can try another
string. He can insist that there's meaning here but the client just isn't
trying hard enough to figure it out. He can suggest that some uninvited
spirit guests are confusing the issue. It's a win-win situation for the
medium because the burden is not on him but on the client to find the
meaning and significance of the words."
You'll have noticed Tomm trying to work so much of the above in this forum.
His posts are frighteningly real examples of spot-the-misdirection to create
the win-win, even when he's wrong. Hopefully lessons are being learned.
tommacfearsom
I posted here because I thought I saw another big ol' sacred cow that
folks might enjoy being put out to pasture. This ol' sacred cow's name
is "Last Minute'. ;-)))
I thought that Moor had done a nice job of that with his post but then
the misdirection got started. I remembered the Washington Post quote
and thought that as a factual quote from McG at an early date (August
1967) it would back up Moor's post nicely and folks would once again
enjoy hearing from McG himself.
As it is the "get Tomm out of town" posts ( as Moor calls them) are
starting to pile up like so many old newspapers (in this case that rag
known as the Daily Mail) ;-)). I just thought that before the thread
got choked with all of that I would inform you there are more
interesting articles on the subject of this thread to be reviewed.I
will publish with the other news items for folks here in the newsgroup
to enjoy (in a proper forum).
I look forward to hear about next years gathering at Hercules Hall at
"The Village" in The Unmutual and hope to meet you there in person
sometime.
Be good.
tommacfearsom
Hello Rick
By the way my online handle (name) comes from an episode from years
ago in an AOL chat room where I helped settle a dispute between two
folks. One of them said that what I did was 'fearsome" and he said I
was like Tom Terrific ( a cartoon character from from an old American
show who helped solve problems). He then insisted on calling me
tommcfearsome in the early type style of the internet. I liked the
moniker dropped the the 'e" and "Hey Presto" Tommcfearsom ( now
Tommacfearsom with an "a").
Be good
Rick Davy
>
> From Day 1 it should have been "7" and on Day 2 it became 17 so the
> Lord (Lew Grade) could make his sale to CBS (because Patrick only
> wants to produce 17). ;-)))
>
> Close enough for me (as a fan) and still not any where near the "last
> minute". ;-))
Did you read Lew's excellent posting where he reprodcued a quote from
Patrick McGoohan which completely backs up the sie of the debate Lew and I
were on but is in oppositin to your claims (and reposting quotes which back
up what we've been saying just helps us all the more).
Rick
tommacfearsom
Hello Rick
Yep. I caught that post and that is why I even "backed it up" with a
similar post from TIME Magazine. But the title of the thread is LAST
MINUTE not MONTHS LATER after the fact. That is why I also "backed up"
Moors post of 1967.
Fairclough uses the term "eleventh hour" during the production of
THGWWD and then McG states that Fall Out is the last episode. So I
have defined " last minute' as late Nov.- December 1967 . As Moor
pointed out June- August is hardly the "last minute". That is all.
I also just dropped by to post this url as I thought you might get a
kick out of seeing good Ol' Tom Terrific himself ;-)))
www.fiftiesweb.com/tv/tom-terrific.gif
Also since Moor Larkin did seem to grasp many of the factual posts I
have made about various subjects concerning The Prisoner ( such as the
Harmony myth or issues involving George Markstein) I owed him the
clean factual quote from the Washingtom Post about the events in
August of 1967 ( the actual subject matter of this thread).
My posting style developed from a type of dialog that was used by a
science friend of mine from SRI, one the U.S. largest "think tanks"
where he worked for many years.
Be Good.
Rick Davy
>
>
> Hello Rick
>
> Yep. I caught that post and that is why I even "backed it up" with a
> similar post from TIME Magazine. But the title of the thread is LAST
> MINUTE not MONTHS LATER after the fact. That is why I also "backed up"
> Moors post of 1967.
>
> Fairclough uses the term "eleventh hour" during the production of
> THGWWD and then McG states that Fall Out is the last episode. So I
> have defined " last minute' as late Nov.- December 1967 . As Moor
> pointed out June- August is hardly the "last minute". That is all.
>
But nor is it "exactly 17 episodes and no more were planned all along, from
the very beginning" which to be fair has been what you've been saying
happened. Glad that in the end, the points I have been making have again
been backed up.
Rick
tommacfearsom
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Rick
I am glad you find solace in the posts about The Prisoner and the
factual McG comments. I am certain that Moor may at times take some
delight that his opinions are also "backed up" by some of my facts
from ol' yellow newspapers.
It is a pleasure to chat with you even when we are on differing sides
of an opinion.
This thread I take is not about our pre-production conversation about
the "7/17" but about the Tomblin quote that at the LAST MINUTE the 17
was forced on McG due to budgets or scheduling sometime in late Nov.-
Dec. 1967. I have used Fairclough's definition of "eleventh hour" as
applied to TGWWD production period as LAST MINUTE. Moor seems to point
out that June (or earlier) was when that decision about the 17 was
made. My Washington Post quote places it at least on record in the
first week of August 1967. Hardly "last minute" as Moor pointed out.
Thanx again for the chat. I have always found most of our conversation
free of 'get Tomm out of town" stuff. And certainly you have never
turned a newsgroup dedicated to The Prisoner into a lecture hall about
what beliefs a person should or should not hold or practice concerning
spiritual matters ( kinda like Change Of Mind). ;-))))
Thanx again for the chat.
Be Good
P.S. The post about McG and his motives for wanting a limited series
was kinda old hat as he had been saying that since 1966 and the TIMES
quote I had published here months ago, so nothing really new there.
Gareth
> "Ivor Jones" <i...@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:6nuo65...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > I'll still never understand why people spell his name with 2 m's.
>
> Well, the cheap shot answer would be that most of his posts make the reader
> go, "Mm...", but I think it's actually based on his day job, which is trying
> to convince the desperate and the deluded that he can talk to the dead:http://www.skepdic.com/channeling.html
>
> According to Tomm, one of the "entities" that "speaks through" him is Tom
> McPherson (or Macfearsom?), an unlikely 16th century "spirit", hence Tomm.
>
> What, of course, this also does is undermine all of Tomm's posts in this
> forum, as his day job involves misdirection, cold reading, fishing, bluster,
> etc., which he carries into his posts here, making them somewhere between
> highly questionable and downright wrong.
>
> With the subject header of 'Did George Markstein NOT Create The Prisoner'
> Tomm's most notorious opening post here is:
> 'After a review of various claims made by George Markstein I now can
> almost agree with a statement made by Bernard Williams production
> manager for The Prisoner: 'It was all Patrick. George Markstein
> contributed ZERO."
> Comments?? Information??'
>
> From the blurred negative in the subject header to the use of words like
> 'claims' and 'almost agree', Tomm sets up a typical fishing expedition,
> asking for comments and information, when he, as later posters point out,
> has not actually stated any meaningful proposition, let alone substantiate
> it, but this is how mediums, channelers, and the like operate.
>
I'm getting P... Pat or Patricia? or Patrick? Sunshine, oranges.
Perhaps California - surf? does surf or Serf mean anything? Joe Serf?
Does the number Six mean anything to you? he feels trapped...
tommacfearsom
Hello Rick
As I said thanx for an actual conversation free of drivel.
Jill Mills
"tommacfearsom" <tommac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4b07516a-a018-4ec8...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Hello Rick
>
> As I said thanx for an actual conversation free of drivel.
Hello Tomm,
If only you had extended the same courtesy to me....
Jill
scov...@ntlworld.com
According to Andrew Pixley's production guide, McGoohan returned to
the States for a second block of filming on Ice Station Zebra in late
September 1967, after production of Living In Harmony was completed.
During this second visit he was indeed supposed to be working on the
script for the final episode but the hectic filming schedule prevented
him from doing so. David Tomblin flew out to the States to collect
the manuscript but returned empty handed.
So the decision to produce a final four episodes had indeed been made
before he went to Hollywood in September '67 for the *second* block of
filming. Which is almost certainly what the American report was
referring to.
Tommacfearsom's quote from the Washington Post indicates that the
decision to produce a final four episodes was made no later than
August 2nd 1967. This isn't new information though. For example, by
the end of August 1967, the ATV Midland schedulers were already aware
that there were to be exactly 17 episodes.
As Rick and others have pointed out, for various documented reasons
it's extremely unlikely that the decision to film only a further four
episodes was made before production of the first block of thirteen was
completed at the end of April 1967.
So it would appear that the decision was made at some point between
the beginning of May 1967 and the end of July 1967.
(Robert Fairclough states in his book The Prisoner The Official
Companion that the decision was "announced" during production of The
Girl Who Was Death but it would have to have been actually decided
earlier than this).
Rick Davy
"lewstringer" <lew.st...@BTinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bLudndWcZMuPjYrU...@bt.com...
Additional info (hope SC won't mind me reproducing this here):
The Daily Cinema magazine which, for a while in the mid-1960s, used to list
all the films and film series in production at the various British studios
stated that "Many Happy Returns" - the thirteenth episode to go into the
studio - was the last in a series of 13, and that a new series would begin
shooting later in the year. Additionally, some of the ITV regions'
programme schedule documents listed the first episode as (1/1/13) (series 1,
episode 1 of 13) and continued in this vein for a couple more weeks, I
think, before changing the 13 to 17.
Rick
roger
> stated that "Many Happy Returns" - the thirteenth episode to go into the
> studio - was the last in a series of 13,
George Markstein always maintained that Many Happy Returns was the last
episode of the first series of 13 and the above is consistent with that.
13 from Day 1 with a possibility of further 13s.
17 well towards the end of the project.
Did anyone ever doubt it?
:-)
lewstringer
> Hello Rick
>
> By the way my online handle (name) comes from an episode from years
> ago in an AOL chat room where I helped settle a dispute between two
> folks. One of them said that what I did was 'fearsome" and he said I
> was like Tom Terrific ( a cartoon character from from an old American
> show who helped solve problems). He then insisted on calling me
> tommcfearsome in the early type style of the internet. I liked the
> moniker dropped the the 'e" and "Hey Presto" Tommcfearsom ( now
> Tommacfearsom with an "a").
>
> Be good
So in that film "Out on a Limb" with Shirley MaClaine, where you're
supposed to be channeling the spirit Tom McFearsome the mischevious
pickpocket, you just made it all up then? Thank God for that because
that "Oirish" accent you used was bloody ridiculous.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM7-jXsI8ow
tommacfearsom
Hello Rick
The above info seems to confirm Moor's suggestion of a June or earlier
decision on the final production of 17 episodes and it would appear
that McG controlled that choice as producer ( as does the Washington
Post of August 1967).
June or earlier (when Lord Grade said that McG as early as the CBS
sale ,discussed by Michael Dann in Feb 1967 in the Chicago Tribune)
again seems hardly at "the last minute".
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Jill
I hope all is well. Here one more time (so you can sleep at night
knowing that I never thought of you as a "heckler" to be "censored")
is the Good Ol' Howdy Doody, that most unique of American creations.
Good Ol' Howdy (one more time):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-IPXpvRaU
Yours Truly
Tomm (Terrific) Macfearsom
P.S. Again, we will always have wonderland. ;-)
scov...@ntlworld.com
My name isn't Rick.
tommacfearsom
I didn't imply that your name was Rick. I was pointing out to Rick
Davy where your info was helpful to a chat I was having with him, so
included you material.
Thanx for the great info.
Rick Davy
>
> June or earlier (when Lord Grade said that McG as early as the CBS
> sale ,discussed by Michael Dann in Feb 1967 in the Chicago Tribune)
> again seems hardly at "the last minute".
You said the decision was made at the start of filming/production. It
wasn't. Won't take too many words to admit you were wrong would it?
Rick
tommacfearsom
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Rick
The point of this thread is the issue of "a last minute decision". The
new material from Pixley validates Moor's point of an early date
inJune or even May, again hardly "last minute".
I would further point out that Moor's quote from Lord Grade states
that McG only wanted to produce 17 episodes and that is all Michael
Dann purchased for CBS (Chicago Tribune Feb. 1967). As I mentioned
before Dann stated he knew of McG's 14 - to 20 day shoots and
approved. So it was known as early as Feb. 1967 that such a shooting
schedule would not allow for 26-30 episodes unless there were to 520
days in the year. Again, hardly at the "last minute".
The quote from Troyer seems to imply that McG had a handshake
agreement with Lew Grade for 17 episodes and then stuck to that
agreement. The Troyer quote sounds to be about preproduction (Roger
does counter nicely with the emphasis on EVENTUALLY so yes I do read
all the relevant posts).
It would appear that a review of Pixley and not just Fairclough (as
was recommended to me) with his (Fairclough's) comments on the
"Eleventh Hour" may prove useful.
Thanx again for the chat. There are some more "ol' yellow newspapers"
that may bear on the issue of preproduction. I will publish them in a
proper forum.
Rick Davy
>
> The point of this thread is the issue of "a last minute decision". The
> new material from Pixley validates Moor's point of an early date
> inJune or even May, again hardly "last minute".
>
If I put it in the other thread would you admit your mistake?
Rick
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Rick
Yep, I did state that the 17 could have been a goal of McG's
preproduction as the Troyer interview implies and that Lord Grade's
comment on the CBS sale validates as well as the 69 WP quote
(certainly the 1969 Washington Post quote gets rid of "inventing 'mini-
series" ol' sacred cow which should be celebrated).
Rick, SOMETHING caused Michael Dann to purchase the rather odd number
of 17 episodes ( not just 13 as might be the case in a mid-season
replacement). Lord Grade said that was because McG only wanted to only
produce 17. ( so again this alone would push back Moor's date to
possibly Dec.1966 or January 1967 again hardly "last minute" and now
only 4 or 5 months into production and nowhere near the ol' 'strained
budgets" sacred cow" of TGWWD- Fall Out period.
We are now in 1966 for when the decision about the 17 may have emerged
and I hold that the Troyer McG quote was a handshake deal McG made
with Lew Grade preproduction for the sale to CBS (which happened).
If I am mistaken about this I have yet to see any documentation that
conflicts with the idea that McG was known to take control of projects
after they were capitalized and drive them in the direction he saw fit
( in this case keeping an agreement with Lew Grade for 17 episodes).
Indeed all of the documentation shows McG's ever increasing control of
a production that could not have gone beyond the 17 episodes he agreed
to (with Lew Grade) and a production schedule that not even Tomblin
could alter (that also had Michael Dann's blessing) from Day 1 in
September 1966.
There are more materials to review. I am more than happy see any
material in this matter (such as Pixley).
Rick Davy
>
> Hello Rick
>
> Yep, I did state that the 17 could have been a goal of McG's
> preproduction
No, you said this WAS the case. Glad you now conclude that it wasn't.
Rick
lewstringer
...and as he's also now admitted he made up the name Tom McFearsom
(therefore invalidating his "chanelling" of a person of the same name in
McClaine's autobiographical flick "Out on a Limb") he doesn't really
have much left to say for himself does he? (Although I suspect he'll
still want the last word.)
I hope Shirley won't be too annoyed with him for wasting her time.
Perhaps we'll read of her reaction in an "ol' yellowed newspaper" to be.
;-)
scov...@ntlworld.com
I didn't realise that you were trying to claim that the decision to
produce only 17 episodes was made any earlier than May 1967. This is
demonstrably incorrect.
George Markstein left the show in April 1967 and Ian Rakoff was one of
the people asked to come up with story ideas in the wake of his
departure.
In Rakoff's book "Inside The Prisoner" he describes the conversations
he had with McGoohan about his script for Living In Harmony.
At the first meeting McGoohan stated "We've thirteen episodes near
completion, and four more to go. After that, who knows ? It could
all end with the twenty-six episode run. It could all end tomorrow,
even today."
Rakoff also met with McGoohan the day before he left for Hollywood to
film Ice Station Zebra. "The series is in big money trouble", said
McGoohan. "Everything is up in the air. I've accepted a part in a
Hollywood film for the sake of The Prisoner. It'll mean that we can
do another four episodes. Then, we'll see how much further we can
take it. We intend going up to twenty-six episodes. You'll do four
of them."
So when McGoohan left for the States, there were definite plans to
produce *at least* another four episodes. But at that stage, Fall Out
was not one of them.
tommacfearsom
Hello Rick
I think your glasses must have fogged up when you read my post. I am
still saying that McG had a handshake agreement with Lew Grade in
preproduction and that is the source of the 17. There will be more
material to examine.
I suggest that you focus on the comments in Fairclough's book about
how The Prisoner had been being discussed for months (before
Markstein) and the points about how The Prisoner's (and McG's)
continuing story line came from the 1963 BBC teleplay The Prisoner.
As far as I am concerned Rick most of the points you have raised, at
the moment, have never gotten out of the foot hills of Mt. Troyer
(which you do not put to much stock in) let alone not hearing the word
of the Lord... in this case the words of Lord Lew Grade ( who just
like McG (Troyer) you insist just has to be wrong about events they
were at). And of course you are still quoting ancient event versions
of Michael Dann rather than ol' yellow newspapers mere days or a few
weeks after the actual events.
I think as Moor pointed out the 17 was decided at least by May or June
( I only dropped by to post the WP August 1967 McG quote to back up
Moor) and that the ol' sacred cow of "Eleventh Hour" (Fairclough)
strained budgets can be put out to pasture now (along with other ol'
sacred cows with names like "Banned" and "Inventing The Mini-
Series"). ;-))
Just so we are clear ,Rick, my money is still on the table at the
Silver Dollar that the 17 came from a handshake deal between McG and
Lew Grade in preproduction. There is more material from ol' yellow
newspapers to be examined.
Simply put Rick, I take McG, Lew Grade and Michael Dann at their word.
Hope to see you at Hercules Hall.
Be sure to "Ignore the comments from the Peanut Gallery." as good Ol'
Howdy Doody might say ( in other words stay focused on those comments
from Fairclough). ;-)))
Be good.
P.S. Hi there Scovi
Thanx for the great info. I don't put to much stock in the Rakoff
material. He is a very good story teller and I think when ever he says
something he is just having to good a time winking at the folks he is
telling stories to. ;-))) I think it is only fair that I can say this
as Rick Davy is on record here in the newsgroup saying he doesn't put
much stock in what McG has to say in the Troyer interview for purposes
of our chat.
I work with the material of Myth as a means to explore various types
of human truths myself (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I am leaving myself
open for some wisecracks here, big deal. Yada, yada yada..on and
on....). Rakoff just always has a gleam in his eye when talking about
the " 6' 2' towering McG in a 'red mist" or some such very
entertaining words ( but not much real history IMHO).
Thanx again for the great info.
Rick Davy
>
> I think your glasses must have fogged up when you read my post. I am
> still saying that McG had a handshake agreement with Lew Grade in
> preproduction and that is the source of the 17. There will be more
> material to examine.
>
What are your thoughts on the Daily Mirror article with quotes from McGoohan
which Lew kindly posted?
Rick
lewstringer
As I appear to be in the "peanut gallery" that Kevin is ignoring I doubt
he's paid it much attention, just as he ignores anything that
contradicts his odd world view.
Anyway, here it is again to save Kevin the effort of actually following
the thread:
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Rick
I think that Lew's quote is great. That is why I backed it up with an
equally late quote from TIME Magazine that says the same thing. I even
have the same quote from TIME at it's source from the LA TIMES dated
Nov. 1967 complete with quotation marks from McG.
At least my quotes come from the relevant time periods we were
reviewing as I pointed out and not MONTHS after the events (such as
Lew's Daily Mail quotes, nifty as they are.)
Remember Rick this thread says LAST MINUTE in the title.
You might want to point out to Lew that the only folks in the Howdy
Doody "Peanut Gallery" (which in an Americanism meaning "stay focused"
such on the title of this thread) are a bunch of kiddies 5-8 years of
age cheering a now ancient puppet.
By the way the 'peanuts" that Jill would be throwing at me would be
those same kiddies in the "Peanut Gallery"
Be good.
Rick Davy
>
> Hello Rick
>
> I think that Lew's quote is great. That is why I backed it up with an
> equally late quote from TIME Magazine that says the same thing. I even
> have the same quote from TIME at it's source from the LA TIMES dated
> Nov. 1967 complete with quotation marks from McG.
>
> At least my quotes come from the relevant time periods we were
> reviewing as I pointed out and not MONTHS after the events (such as
> Lew's Daily Mail quotes, nifty as they are.)
>
> Remember Rick this thread says LAST MINUTE in the title.
>
Not anymore it doesn't. The quote from McGoohan Lew posted COMPLETELY
disproves what you were saying (and is 10 years earlier than the Troyer
interview and about 30 prior to the Lew Grade quote).
I asked you what you thought of McGoohan's quote, IE that he was going to do
more than 17 as the series was in oproduction, but by the end couldn't
continue so they stopped at 17. Not asking for anything else, just what you
thought of McGoohans words?
Rick
roger
> I think it is only fair that I can say this
> as Rick Davy is on record here in the newsgroup saying he doesn't
> put much stock in what McG has to say in the Troyer interview for
> purposes of our chat.
It's not just Rick, there are a number of others, including myself, if you
search the archives of this group where the Troyer interview and talking to
McGoohan in general has been discussed.
Patrick at some point in every interview challenges the interviewer to
correct him. It's a measure of whether the interviewer is their own man or
just "boot-licking a star".
If you have the guts, integrity and belief in yourself to challenge Mr
McGoohan, then you get his approval and he opens up for the rest of the
interview. If you don't, like Troyer didn't, then you get a pretty
restricted series of responses, like Troyer did, which is why one should
treat them all with a pinch or two of reality and salt.
I'm not going to go over the back-fitting element of "The 7" (nonsense from
the start) again, but it's there in the Troyer interview for a reason.
lewstringer
> At least my quotes come from the relevant time periods we were
> reviewing as I pointed out and not MONTHS after the events (such as
> Lew's Daily Mail quotes, nifty as they are.)
>
Daily MIRROR actually, and it was quite relevant considering it was
published the day after the series concluded its original run.
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hi There Rick
Like I said I have quotes (and have posted them here in this thread)
from before, during and after the events that we have been reviewing
that totally validate Moor's point that the 17 decisions came before
the "last minute" (May or June in fact), period. (no big deal).
I still think that the 17 that McG wanted to produce (and the
production pace that Michael Dann approved of, allowed for no more
than 17) came from a preproduction handshake with Lew Grade so he
could make his 'sale to CBS" ( just like Troyer, The '69 Washington
Post and some "Rafferty" interviews that I have imply or state.
If I read Roger's post correctly he is claiming to have some kind of
secret decoder device ( they use to have those on Little Orphan Annie
Show) that would allow only him to understand anything that McG said
anyway. So what would it matter what McG said with out the Lil' Orphan
Annie Secret Decoder Ring ?? ;-))
Like I have said Rick, I take McG at his word ( and sure I guess he
was a little tired after 16 hour days, which was the same hours he
worked on Danger Man).
'Nuff Said (Stan Lee) (See Lew, I do read your posts.) ;-))
Rick Davy
>
> Like I have said Rick, I take McG at his word
Why the abrupt finish to this series which has cost £1,375,000? The
roger
> On Nov 11, 4:03 pm, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
>> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> > and eventually we did 17
>>
>> EVENTUALLY, i.e., not from Day 1.
>> QED.
>
> Okey ;-))
>
> From Day 1 it should have been "7" and on Day 2 it became 17 so the
> Lord (Lew Grade) could make his sale to CBS (because Patrick only
> wants to produce 17). ;-)))
In a project running to hundreds of days, Day 2 does not represent
'Eventually'.
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hi There Again Rick
Well I think if you look at the 1966 quotes he was pretty "whacked"
from doing Danger Man and only wanted to do a nice little series of
"7" but out of respect for Lord Grade he agreed to 17 and stuck to it.
Simple. No gigantic conspiracy, no hissy fits, just one poor ol' tired
McG who then (after some rather nice interviews for TV Guide) went for
some well deserved R&R in Switzerland (TIME '68)
As before Rick you are focusing on the wrong time period, the "last
minute" was Nov.-Dec. 1967. The 17 was decided as early as May-June of
1967, just as Moor suggested ( and my nifty WP quote of August 67
helps validate).
It is really up to you to figure out, once again, the 'last minute"
bits, and after the facts quote from the Daily Mirror (thanx for the
correction about my Daily "Mail" flub).
There are quotes of 30, 36, 26, (claims of 39) that go all over the
map Rick. My whole purpose was to "back up" Moor and then with TIME I
'backed up" Lew. But the quote in TIME had origins in the LA Times of
Nov. 1967, not after the facts (which is the case of the Daily Mirror
quote).
McG being tired of TV in 66 then leaving in August of 67 (WP) just
shows that The Priz was his last TV gig. (no big deal and nothing
really new just one ol' tuckered out McG).
Be Good.
tommacfearsom
Ohhhhhh you are the tricky little devil, that you are. You are losing
badly on the original title and me and my foggy ol' glasses and 50+
year ol' eyes just didn't catch that tricky, tricky, title change,
aren't just the bad boy, Rick. ;-)))
Sooooooo going back to the original title of LAST MINUTE. ;-)))
A.) Ol' Michael Dann in in Feb. 1967 knows all about the expense and
production schedule (you know the one about 20 day shoots that would
take 520 days in the year to produce 26 episodes) and goes "WAY TO McG
I'll take 17 of those (because Lew Grade tells me that is all you are
willing to produce"). (Chicago Tribune + Lord Grade Bio, who in your
world just has gotta be wrong).
Flash forward to MAY 1967, ohhhh about 90 days MAX, McG blows the
whistle and says "LISTEN UP EVERY BODY NO MORE THAN 17, THAT'S A WRAP.
NOT THE LAST MINUTE ( the ORIGINAL pint of this thread).
WHAT the Dickens does a quote over a year later in the Daily Mirror,
over a year later, mumbling the same information (and not from MICHAEL
DANN WHO WAS THERE) have to do with any thing relevant to the original
points of the title of the thread. NOTHING!!!!
B.) IT IS MAY ( or I will be generous and make it AUGUST of 1967)
MICHAEL DANN STILL HAS PURCHASED ONLY 17 EPISODES AND McG STILL SAYS:
HEY FOLKS, IT IS ALL OVER, I'M LEAVING TV. GET OFF THE GRAVY
TRAIN !!!!
Repeat section (A.)
Rick, if you want a thread about the issue of PREPRODUCTION GO START
ONE. Perhaps I will see you there. SHEEEEESH!!!
Hope to see you at Herakles Hall.
Be good.
DONE
A.N.Other
<tommac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There will be more material to examine.
Well there hasn't been any from you so far. Kindly post images of
these "'ol yellowed newspapers", even in black & white if need be, to
prove your quotes.
>Hope to see you at Hercules Hall.
God, I hope not! You do realise that we still tar & feather charlatans
in this country?
>I think it is only fair that I can say this
>as Rick Davy is on record here in the newsgroup saying he doesn't put
>much stock in what McG has to say in the Troyer interview for purposes
>of our chat.
Simply a case of the great man either mis-remembering things several
years on or just putting his own spin on the events.
It does happen. Witness your "Tom Macfearsom/e" comments in the last
few days. Surely a re-invention when compared against your Maclaine
biopic appearance.
>I work with the material of Myth
<FX: Spits drink across room from shock & laughter>
A.N.Other
No need to shout! You'll burst a blood vessel.
(Well, we can only hope)
lewstringer
They always end up shouting don't they?
I see the multiple exclamation marks are there too. He'll be LOLOLOL-ing
next.
> >I work with the material of Myth
Yes Kevin. Your theories are very hit and myth. Well, I say "hit", but
that was just for the sake of the joke. All myth really.
Rick Davy
>
>As before Rick you are focusing on the wrong time period, the "last
>minute" was Nov.-Dec. 1967. The 17 was decided as early as May-June of
>1967, just as Moor suggested ( and my nifty WP quote of August 67
>helps validate).
>
So, just a yes or no answer will suffice, are you now concurring that before
and during the first few months of production more than 17 episodes of TP
were intended?
Rick
Rick Davy
> Hello Rick
>
> Ohhhhhh you are the tricky little devil, that you are. You are losing
> badly on the original title and me and my foggy ol' glasses and 50+
> year ol' eyes just didn't catch that tricky, tricky, title change,
> aren't just the bad boy, Rick. ;-)))
>
Not really, I told you in the post where I changed it that I had changed it,
perfectly normal newsgroup etiquette to do that.
Rick
scoville
It appears we were both wrong. In an effort to shed some light on the
matter I contacted Andrew Pixley, who confirmed that the final
decision to halt production was almost certainly made at the last
minute during the filming of The Girl Who Was Death.
Any reference to 17 episodes dated earlier than October 1967 refers to
the initial block of 13 episodes, plus the first four of the second
block of filming. Until filming of The Girl Who Was Death was
underway, this second block of four did NOT include the final episode.
lewstringer
Excellent piece of info scoville, and explained far more concisely than
the faus-folksy ramblings of TombMcPhearsom.
roger
news:b9e124ce-2d87-474f...@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> Any reference to 17 episodes dated earlier than October 1967 refers to
> the initial block of 13 episodes, plus the first four of the second
> block of filming. Until filming of The Girl Who Was Death was
> underway, this second block of four did NOT include the final episode.
I've never ever thought otherwise and I'm mildly baffled that anyone did.
The above is consistent with at least one comment (sometimes the sole
comment) from everyone involved. It was a last minute decision to stop
forever at 17. What is the benefit of trying to pretend different?
tommacfearsom
Thanx for the notice that you changed the title, as I said I was the
one who missed it, not that you tried to hide it. As for a "yes or no"
I have already posted that I hold to what McG said in Troyer, what
Lord Grade said about his sale to CBS and what Michael Dann had stated
in the Chicago Tribune about the costs and rate of production. Draw
your own conclusions.( But don't forget to use your super secret L'il
Orphan Annie Decoder Ring). ;-)))
The statement about the Pixley claim is rather nifty, but that won't
change the fact that McG himself says it is all over in the first week
of August 1967 in the Washington Post ( no Lil' Orphan Annie Decoder
Ring needed). Besides Pixley appears to be off by several years as to
when Harmony was first shown (it was Nov. 1968 after the giant
conspiracy failed to crush a nice little type of Western we Americans
had been watching everyday for about half a century, if you include
cinema).
Again the August 1967 from the Washington Post date that backs up
Moor's point and is the actual subject of the title of the thread
"Last Minute" is what I came here to post. August of 1967 is (again)
hardly The Last Days of Pompei or the "Eleventh Hour" that Fairclough
cites around the time period of TGWWD ( and now claimed for Pixley at
the "Last Minute" in this thread).
The Pixley bit is a nice last ditch attempt at a save but that won't
change the ink on the August 1967 Washington Post.
I see the usual "get Tomm out of town" posts ( as Moor calls them) are
again cluttering up the thread.
Hope to see you at Herakles Hall.
Thanx for the nice chat Rick.
Be Good
P.S. Rick, it would be nice if you would inform folks that I tried to
offer you all of the material I have quoted here for archiving at The
Unmutual first thing ( beginning with the '69 WP quote months ago).
Rick Davy
>
> Again the August 1967 from the Washington Post date that backs up
> Moor's point and is the actual subject of the title of the thread
> "Last Minute" is what I came here to post. August of 1967 is (again)
> hardly The Last Days of Pompei or the "Eleventh Hour" that Fairclough
> cites around the time period of TGWWD ( and now claimed for Pixley at
> the "Last Minute" in this thread).
Nearer last minute than first minute which is what you said in the other
thread. Having a different thread title doesn't mean you can completely
change your argument.
As for saying "hello Rick" in response to other people's posts, that's both
rude and incredibly annoying.
Rick
tommacfearson
Hello Rick,
Sorry, it was really amiss of me, but I forgot to post the actual text
from the ol' Washington Post article of August 1967. You can pay
$1.30 and get a copy of it if you really want.
"I have decided to end the series at 17 episodes", said McGoohan.
"This exclusive revelation is only for the Washington Post readers
because I haven't told anyone else yet, even those involved with the
production. The only people who know are Lew Grade, Michael Dann and
myself.
"And tomorrow, a few hundred thousand of your readers.
"I'm planning to keep it a secret from the production crew for at
least another two months, so please tell your readers not to let on".
The statement about the Pixley claim is rather nifty, but don't forget
that he's completely unreliable as a source of information. After
all, he only spent months researching the production of The Prisoner
and wrote an exhaustive guide in a 290 page book. He didn't go down
the ol' library like what I went and did !
I'll wager he's never even heard of a Lil' Orphan Annie Decoder Ring
either so how much use can he be in this discussion ?
Stay focussed
Tomm Macfearson.
tommacfearsom
I just dropped by to correct the Harmony date. It was Nov.1969 not
'68, sorry about that (but even then Pixley is off by several years).
As for what is REALLY, REALLY rude I suggest you take a look around
the thread at some of the "get Tomm out of town" posts and decide for
yourself who you would choose to chat with as an individual.
Thanx again for all the great conversation.
Hope to see you at Herakles Hall.
Oh and by the way I will now use the term "Ignore the comments from
The Peanut Brained Gallery" for the new nut case who just shoewd up
with the new twist on "get Tomm out of town" bit. I'll let you figure
out who it is.
Be Good.
Rick Davy
> Hello Rick
>
I'll say it again.
Nearer last minute than first minute which is what you said in the other
thread. Having a different thread title doesn't mean you can completely
change your argument.
Rick
tommacfearson
Hello Rick
I just dropped by again to point out that Pixley is wrong about
everything he says because he might have got the date wrong of the
first U.S. screening of Harmony. I say "might have got the date
wrong" because he doesn't actually mention the date of the first U.S.
screening anywhere in his Production Guide.
So it's probable that I just made that up to discredit him. That's
what I'm good at y'all - making up facts !
As for what is REALLY, REALLY rude I suggest you realise that I have a
particular style of posting. I prefer to pretend that this isn't a
public newsgroup and that we are having a one-to-one exchange via
email. Hell, I'm the new kid in town, how am I supposed to be
understandin' all that there new-fangled Usenet etiquette nonsense !
Ignore the comments from the peanut gallery
Tomm Macfearson.
Rick Davy
>Besides Pixley appears to be off by several years as to
> when Harmony was first shown (it was Nov. 1968 after the giant
> conspiracy failed to crush a nice little type of Western we Americans
> had been watching everyday for about half a century, if you include
> cinema).
>
I checked my production guide by Andrew Pixley this afternoon, he doesn't
give ANY date for the first US screening of Living in Harmony, just says
"not shown during first CBS run" and nothing else, so can I respectfully ask
what you're on about?
Rick
Gareth
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
We now have MacfearsoM *and* a MacfearsoN wasting our time...
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Rick
You just might be right on this one Rick (if nothing else about the
"last minute").;-))) I was quoting Pixley from somewhere in the
newsgroup. I fully confess that I have to review the Pixley material
( you only recommended Fairclough).
Pixley should have also mentioned Harmony did not run in 1969 (the
second US run) but did show in in Nov. 1969 (when it was rescheduled,
not "banned" or "censored".) But you have already got used to saying
to saying "rescheduled" rather than 'banned" or "censored' so there
for you are a free fan. ;-))) Congrats on your progress Rick.
Perhaps now if you take a look at that August 1967 from the Washington
Post you will be able to say that the 17 was not decided at the "last
minute" or the "Eleventh Hour" (Fairclough) sometime in Dec.1967, just
as Moor pointed out (not me I just added a date and Mcg quote to back
up Moor). "Last Minute" of course was in the original title of the
thread that Moor and I signed in for.
As for Harmony, the 17 and examining the history of The Prisoner from
an American perspective for the social, artistic and other merits it
may have when other folks like Moor ( a rather well informed fellow)
and other folks seem to grasp many of the points or info shared
here.... well that requires some thinking.
Some folks do claim to remember "something older" about Harmony. If
they do perhaps they will share it as has been done with the various
quotes ( like Moor's about Sir Lew Grade, that just has to "wrong"
even though it is backed up by both McG and Michael Dann's version of
the same events (in print).
Be good.
Rick Davy
>
> You just might be right on this one Rick
Best you check real sources in future then, as this was your one reason for
doubting Pixley (possibly the World's most respected Cult TV researcher)
regarding the decision to stop at 17.
> Pixley should have also mentioned Harmony did not run in 1969 (the
> second US run) but did show in in Nov. 1969 (when it was rescheduled,
> not "banned" or "censored".)
Why? Any book (especially this one) has limited space and it's not hugely
interesting. What he stated is correct.
> "Last Minute" of course was in the original title of the
> thread that Moor and I signed in for.
>
No it wasn't, that was a thread started by roger in response to your earlier
thread in which you stated that 17 was decided pre-production, which has now
been totally disproved. If only you could say "yes, I was wrong, and i'm
sorry for wasting everyone's time and insulting so many people" that would
be such a big, honest, and necessary step to take.
Rick
Gareth
> On Nov 16, 10:58 am, "Rick Davy" <Rdavy...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com>
> wrote:
> Pixley should have also mentioned Harmony did not run in 1969 (the
> second US run) but did show in in Nov. 1969 (when it was rescheduled,
> not "banned" or "censored".)
No. An episode of a television serial is "rescheduled" when it *is
shown* as part of a complete run of that serial, but out of order or
at a later date because of some other broadcasting issue that has
arisen (a major news story, for example, which interrupts normal
broadcast schedules)
On *both* the first *two* runs of "The Prisoner" on network TV in the
US, it was simply omitted entirely, for whatever reason (and Bobby
Kennedy wasn't assassinated twice). The November 1969 broadcast was as
part of a *completely separate* re-broadcast of the whole series.
Rick Davy
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:DaCdncVszvXtgIHU...@bt.com...
>
> "lewstringer" <lew.st...@BTinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:bLudndWcZMuPjYrU...@bt.com...
> > Put this in your pipe and smoke it tommy boy:
> >
> > From The Daily Mirror Feb 3rd 1968:
> >
> > BRITISH television's most bizarre, baffling and costly series, "The
> > Prisoner," is coming to an end months before its time.
> > The final episode - No.17- was screened by I T V in the Midlands last
> > night and will be shown in London and the South tomorrow. It was
> > originally planned to run for a further thirteen installments.
> >
> > Why the abrupt finish to this series which has cost £1,375,000? The
> > Prisoner himself, actor Patrick McGoohan, told me: "It has knocked me
> > out. I'm whacked. This is why I'm stopping. I just can't do any more."
> >
>
>
> The Daily Cinema magazine which, for a while in the mid-1960s, used to
list
> all the films and film series in production at the various British studios
> stated that "Many Happy Returns" - the thirteenth episode to go into the
> studio - was the last in a series of 13, and that a new series would begin
> shooting later in the year. Additionally, some of the ITV regions'
> programme schedule documents listed the first episode as (1/1/13) (series
1,
> episode 1 of 13) and continued in this vein for a couple more weeks, I
> think, before changing the 13 to 17.
>
> Rick
>
Thought it worth pointing out that this has been ignored in certain quarters
:-)
Rick
tommacfearsom
Nice rerun you got up there, but no more ignoring going on than your
refusal to take into account McG, Lord Grade, and Michael Dann who
were all there ( and nobody else). ;-)) Plus Ol' Dann gave all those
figures at the time it was happening in the Chicago Tribune Feb.
1967.... not over a year after the events....in 1968 which makes the
quotes ...well about nothing.
Also I would think that the Bobby Kennedy events were a "major event"
and there is still no FCC document or CBS document just a bunch of 601
Bruce Clark fan drivel... so don't you go letting any "misdirection"
mess up you new found ability to say rescheduled which is a fact and
not Bruce Clark's fabrication. ;-)))
Oh and here is a free bonus for you... you see, while in the U.K. The
Priz was rather expensive it was actually something of a bargain by
U.S. episode standards...in fact it came in under budget by those
standards and showed a profit for Lew Grade... at least according to
Michael Dann... who was there. The Priz also helped Dann win the 68 &
69 rating wars against NBC and that was worth millions in ad revenue
to CBS.
I thought you might like to know that.
Thanx for the Pixley bit ( it still alters zip). I will review that
material soon, rather than just Fairclough and his "Eleventh Hour"
bit. Ohhhh and if anyone can remember "something older" about Harmony
have them post it. I would love to see anything.... rather than that
ol' 601 sacred cow... again.
Shouldn't you be starting a thread about preproduction or changing the
Q&A about Harmony ....very, very polite like. ;-))
Be good.
P.S. I imagine this is where the "get Tomm out of town" posts will
start now..as Moor calls them. ;-))
Rick Davy
> Hi There Rick
>
> Nice rerun you got up there, but no more ignoring going on than your
> refusal to take into account McG,
From The Daily Mirror Feb 3rd 1968:
Rick Davy
"tommacfearsom" <tommac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c969dbb7-7c8a-4ba8...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> Hi There Rick
>
Why did you ignore everything in my post?
Rick
tommacfearson
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hello Rick
You just might be right on this one Rick (if nothing else about the
"last minute").;-))) I was quoting Pixley from somewhere in the
newsgroup.
Actually, I wasn't quoting Pixley from somewhere in the newsgroup. I
just made that up too !
The thing is Rick, I lie all the time. I've even blatantly lied to
you further down this thread.
Here's what I said about the origin of my nickname Tomm Macfearson:
"my online handle (name) comes from an episode from years
ago in an AOL chat room where I helped settle a dispute between two
folks. One of them said that what I did was 'fearsome" and he said I
was like Tom Terrific ( a cartoon character from from an old American
show who helped solve problems). He then insisted on calling me
tommcfearsome in the early type style of the internet."
This is just total bullshit ! I completely made it up !!!
As you know, my real name is Kevin Ryerson and I'm a medium. Tomm
Macfearson is one of the dead spirits I pretend to become during
sessions with clients. I've been doing this for over 25 years - well
before AOL chat rooms even existed !!!!
I TOLD YOU to STAY FOCUSSED, Rick. I've now been caught lying through
my teeth TWICE in the same thread !
Lesson to be learnt: you just can't trust ol' Tomm !!!
Be good
Tomm Macfearson
tommacfearson
wrote:
Hello Rick,
Perhaps now if you take a look at that August 1967 from the Washington
Post you will be able to say that the 17 was not decided at the "last
minute" or the "Eleventh Hour" (Fairclough) sometime in Dec.1967, just
as Moor pointed out (not me I just added a date and Mcg quote to back
up Moor). "Last Minute" of course was in the original title of the
thread that Moor and I signed in for.
Oh hang on, goshdarnit. I forgot.
You CAN'T take a look at that August 1967 Washington Post quote.
Because it doesn't exist !!!! I completely lied about that too.
Which is why I've never posted the quote here.
As for Harmony, the 17 and examining the history of The Prisoner from
an American perspective for the social, artistic and other merits it
may have when other folks like Moor ( a rather well informed fellow)
and other folks seem to grasp many of the points or info shared
here.... well that requires some thinking.
I love Moor. I really do. He's the only one on this board who has
swallowed my bullshit wholesale. If only the rest of you would be
more like Moor. Then I wouldn't have to completely dismiss all your
pesky logical arguments and real evidence, dagnabbit !!
Stay focussed
Tomm Macfearson.
tommacfearson
wrote:
> "Rick Davy" <Rdavy...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:DaCdncVszvXtgIHU...@bt.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "lewstringer" <lew.strin...@BTinternet.com> wrote in message
Hi There Rick
Nice rerun you got up there, but no more ignoring going on than your
refusal to take into account McG, Lord Grade, and Michael Dann who
were all there ( and nobody else). ;-)) Plus Ol' Dann gave all those
figures at the time it was happening in the Chicago Tribune Feb.
1967.... not over a year after the events....in 1968 which makes the
quotes ...well about nothing.
There I go again ! I'm lying about the Chicago Tribune quote of Feb
1967. It doesn't say anything in there that implies that The Prisoner
will be exactly 17 episodes. I made it all up. That's why I'll never
post a copy of this article or even transcribe it in full !! I'll be
caught out lying YET again.
Also I would think that the Bobby Kennedy events were a "major event"
and there is still no FCC document or CBS document just a bunch of 601
Bruce Clark fan drivel... so don't you go letting any "misdirection"
mess up you new found ability to say rescheduled which is a fact and
not Bruce Clark's fabrication. ;-)))
Of course, I'm actually the one using misdirection by banging on about
the Bobby Kennedy assassination. I STILL have no idea why Harmony
wasn't shown in the second U.S. run.
Oh and here is a free bonus for you... you see, while in the U.K. The
Priz was rather expensive it was actually something of a bargain by
U.S. episode standards...in fact it came in under budget by those
standards and showed a profit for Lew Grade... at least according to
Michael Dann... who was there. The Priz also helped Dann win the 68 &
69 rating wars against NBC and that was worth millions in ad revenue
to CBS.
I thought you might like to know that.
Did I take you in there Rick ??!!
I was lying again !!! Are you learning yet ?
The two most expensive shows at the time in the States were Mission:
Impossible and Star Trek. They had virtually identical budgets to The
Prisoner !
Always remember - ol' Tomm just CANNOT be trusted with ANYTHING he
says !!!
Thanx for the Pixley bit ( it still alters zip because although he's
one of the most knowledgeable people around regarding the production
of The Prisoner, he disagrees with me. And gee-whillikers, we can't
be having that now, can we ??!! ).
Be good.
Tomm Macfearson.
P.S. I imagine this is where the "Tomm is lying through his teeth"
posts will
start now..as Moor calls them. ;-)) I fully deserve it of course !!!
Moor Larkin
> Tommacfearsom's quote from the Washington Post indicates that the
> decision to produce a final four episodes was made no later than
> August 2nd 1967. This isn't new information though. For example, by
> the end of August 1967, the ATV Midland schedulers were already aware
> that there were to be exactly 17 episodes.
>
> As Rick and others have pointed out, for various documented reasons
> it's extremely unlikely that the decision to film only a further four
> episodes was made before production of the first block of thirteen was
> completed at the end of April 1967.
>
> So it would appear that the decision was made at some point between
> the beginning of May 1967 and the end of July 1967.
What a super post that is.
So that may have pushed the last minute back to some six months before
the last second..............
On 13 Nov, 12:08, scovi...@ntlworld.com wrote:
>Rakoff also met with McGoohan the day before he left for Hollywood to
>film Ice Station Zebra. "The series is in big money trouble", said
>McGoohan. "Everything is up in the air. I've accepted a part in a
>Hollywood film for the sake of The Prisoner. It'll mean that we can
>do another four episodes. Then, we'll see how much further we can
>take it. We intend going up to twenty-six episodes. You'll do four
>of them."
I always thought that an interesting quote. It seems to possibly
suggest McGoohan leveraged more finance off the back of his Hollywood
fee, rather than abandoning his *pet project* for Beverly Hills as has
been implied elsewhere by the interpretation of some crew *witnesses*
remarks. Given the apparently acknowledged money troubles with only
four episodes still left to make, on the table, it seems clear that
another nine (to make George Markstein's suggested 13) could never
have been envisaged after the first block - there could never have
been any concievable budget for that sort of number.
>So when McGoohan left for the States, there were definite plans to
>produce *at least* another four episodes. But at that stage, Fall Out
>was not one of them.
That too Scovi, is an interesting point............. If there were
plans for four more excluding Fall-Out, (and I merely accept what has
been stated), they must have dropped one idea at least so as to come
in at 17......... so it suggests that 17 was indeed a determinate at
some point far enough back to decide what to film and it couldn't have
been the *last minute* otherwise there would really be a *lost
episode* somewhere in the vaults.... :-)))
I wonder if there was an element that toyed with the idea of showing
the first 13 and if the audience reaction was good, leveraging more
cash from ITC......... but that was never attempted, adding wight to
the idea that McGoohan made a decision some time before all that could
be seriously considered. Didn't I read somewhere that Canada only
showed 13 episodes in their original *run*?.... And never broadcast
Fall-Out at all, first time round? This suggests a strategy of 13
episodes leading to further series at a later date, but that seems
never to have been a realistic proposal............ Did Grade think he
could persuade McGoohan right up to the last minute I
wonder................ ?............ But no....17 it was.........
17........ The Prime of Tommacfearsom.......
Many thanks to you Scovi.
Moor
roger
news:048d9a80-9ddf-47ec...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> If there were plans for four more excluding Fall-Out, (and I merely accept
> what has
been stated), they must have dropped one idea at least so as to come in at
17
which of course suggests that there were at least 18 planned from
Day-whatever-Tomm-decrees-now (moves with each undermining posting).
:-)
What seems to be overlooked by some is that just because the 17th episode
proved to be 'Fall Out', it doesn't mean that the 17th episode was always
going to be 'Fall Out'. The decision to stop at 17 and therefore have 'Fall
Out' as the 17th was close to the end, as quotes from the principals
involved in the *production*, McGoohan and Tomblin, confirm. The frantic
speed at which 'Fall Out' was written and produced clearly indicates that it
wasn't planned until the series faced closure.
Had the series continued into its second run of 13, who knows what the 17th
episode might have been ...
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c969dbb7-7c8a-4ba8...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Hi There Rick
>
> Why did you ignore everything in my post?
>
> Rick
Hello There Rick
Why do you ignore that McG has been saying the same thing repeatedly
before your late date of March 1968 ,in fact since July of 1966? Why
do you ignore what McG says in Troyer? Why do you ignore what Lord
Grade says about the CBS sale in his Bio. Why do you ignore the stats
that Michael Dann states in the Chicago Tribune in Feb. 1967 ? Why do
you ignore the August date of 1967 from the Washington Post by McG
himself saying it is all over then and not at Fairclough's "Eleventh
Hour" in Dec. 1967. Why do you ignore Moor's Post ?
Look Rick, what do you want ? You have every VOTE VOTE VOTE in the
thread. Check the trash posts above and you will even see you have the
Peanut Brained Troll's VOTE VOTE VOTE.
Declare yourself the victor. Buy everybody who VOTE VOTE VOTED for you
a round of beers and cheers (don't forget the Peanut Brained Troll)
and get a good nights sleep.
I mean the only votes you didn't get were Moor's vote and mine ( and
by extension McG's, Lord Grade's, and Michael Dann's, but why worry,
you don't put much "stock" in them anyway).
Here is a nice link back to the top of the thread ( so you can examine
Moor's and my votes in light of the original title of the thread about
"Last Minute") consider it the free taxi that goes along with winning
the VOTE VOTE VOTE:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.prisoner/browse_thread/thread/b3e30017ddf87dfe?hl=en#
I'm done here. You have won the election. Now back over to the Peanut
Brained Troll and the usual "get Tomm out of town" posts.
I hope to see you at Herakles Hall, Rick.....or in another thread....
about the right subject material.
Be good.
lewstringer
>
> I mean the only votes you didn't get were Moor's vote and mine ( and
> by extension McG's, Lord Grade's, and Michael Dann's, but why worry,
> you don't put much "stock" in them anyway).
>
What's astonishing is that it doesn't even occur to you that the reason
more people haven't supported your theory on this group is because
you're WRONG.
>
> I hope to see you at Herakles Hall, Rick..
In that case let's hope you can put your case across much more fluently
in person or we'll be there for a month. Don't forget to scan those
yellowed ol' newspapers!
tommacfearsom
HEY THERE MOOR ;-))))
Good to see you posting. I was just closing out with Rick when I
caught your post.
Did you catch the posts by my EVIL TWIN ( I have dubbed them the
"Peanut Brained Troll"). Stick with the real McCoy where the FEARSOM
is in MACFEARSOM. ;-)))) rather than the cheap knock off of the CC
schizoid man.
It would seem that McG wrote in brief periods of time before, as in
OUAT, so that is no evidence about the 17.....I think he just liked
the pressure.
I'm done in this thread.
BCNU
Tommacfearsom
scoville
>
> That too Scovi, is an interesting point............. If there were
> plans for four more excluding Fall-Out, (and I merely accept what has
> been stated), they must have dropped one idea at least so as to come
> in at 17......... so it suggests that 17 was indeed a determinate at
> some point far enough back to decide what to film and it couldn't have
> been the *last minute* otherwise there would really be a *lost
> episode* somewhere in the vaults.... :-)))
The Girl Who Was Death was planned to be expanded into a two-parter
which would explain the "lost episode".
> I wonder if there was an element that toyed with the idea of showing
> the first 13 and if the audience reaction was good, leveraging more
> cash from ITC......... but that was never attempted, adding wight to
> the idea that McGoohan made a decision some time before all that could
> be seriously considered.
Unfortunately it appears that there is little evidence to support this
theory. It seems that the plan to produce a second block of 13
episodes was dropped around October 1967 during filming of The Girl
Who Was Death.
tommacfearson
HEY THERE MOOR ;-))))
Good to see you posting. I was just repeating a bunch of lies to Rick
when I caught your post.
Yes you read that right. Lies. I've been caught lying in this thread
a lot of times now.
My latest lie was to tell Rick that The Prisoner was made with a low
budget by American standards. I made this "fact" up. Good one though
eh ;-))))
But the lie I'm proudest of in this thread is the one where I quoted
McGoohan in the Washington Post of August 4th 1967. Y'know, the one
that went "I have completed 13 and will do four more- and then no
more."
I made that up. I sure fooled you and Scovi good though ;-)))))
I'm done in this newsgroup. How can I expect anyone to believe
ANYTHING I say in future when I've been exposed relating so much
horsehit in a single thread ?
Besides, I have an awful feeling that my EVIL TWIN is only just
getting warmed up. Cansarnit ;-)))
BCNU
Tommacfearson
tommacfearson
wrote:
> "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c969dbb7-7c8a-4ba8...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Hi There Rick
>
> Why did you ignore everything in my post?
>
> Rick
Hello There Rick
Look Rick, what do you want ? You have every VOTE VOTE VOTE in the
thread.
I mean the only votes you didn't get were Moor's vote and mine. And
you only got Moor's because he believed my lies. Everyone else saw
through them :-((((
I hope to see you at Herakles Hall, Rick.....or in another thread
where I'll make up some more quotes from the ol' yellow newspapers,
content in the knowledge that everyone here is either unable or
unwilling to mosey on down to the ol' library to check them out ;-)))
Be good.
Tommacfearson
Moor Larkin
Not to mention Scovi, that:
> As Rick and others have pointed out, for various documented reasons
> it's extremely unlikely that the decision to film only a further four
> episodes was made before production of the first block of thirteen was
> completed at the end of April 1967.
> So it would appear that the decision was made at some point between
> the beginning of May 1967 and the end of July 1967.
Or am I going back to the future of this Thread already.........
;-))))
Last Minute Moor............ :)
David Catterall
> What seems to be overlooked by some is that just because the 17th episode
> proved to be 'Fall Out', it doesn't mean that the 17th episode was always
> going to be 'Fall Out'.
I think that the original 17th was the one where they're all strapped
down in front of screens for hours at a time while three guys argue
about a Production Committee meeting forty years before.
I'm not sure how that story ends, though ...
David
lewstringer
LOL! Fair point. :)
Moor Larkin
> I think that the original 17th was the one where they're all strapped
> down in front of screens for hours at a time while three guys argue
> about a Production Committee meeting forty years before.
> I'm not sure how that story ends, though ...
>
> David
I think it turned out to be a convention......... if not an ending
ML
death.f...@googlemail.com
It doesn't. The end is the beginning and it goes on and on and on and
on...
Rick Davy
> On Nov 17, 1:48 am, "Rick Davy" <Rdavy...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com>
> wrote:
> > "tommacfearsom" <tommacfear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:c969dbb7-7c8a-4ba8...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > Hi There Rick
> >
> > Why did you ignore everything in my post?
> >
> > Rick
>
> Hello There Rick
I wonder if you will answer the question by just asking lots of irrelevent
questions?
>
> Why do you ignore
Yes, you did. How predictable.
>that McG has been saying the same thing repeatedly
> before your late date of March 1968 ,in fact since July of 1966?
How can I ignore something which does not exist?
> Why
> do you ignore what McG says in Troyer?
Why do you ignore what he says 8 years previously in the Daily Mirror?
>Why do you ignore what Lord
> Grade says about the CBS sale in his Bio. Why do you ignore the stats
> that Michael Dann states in the Chicago Tribune in Feb. 1967 ? Why do
> you ignore the August date of 1967 from the Washington Post by McG
> himself saying it is all over then and not at Fairclough's "Eleventh
> Hour" in Dec. 1967.
So that means you concur it was not a decision made pre-production then?
>Why do you ignore Moor's Post ?
Which one?
>
> Look Rick, what do you want ? You have every VOTE VOTE VOTE in the
> thread. Check the trash posts above and you will even see you have the
> Peanut Brained Troll's VOTE VOTE VOTE.
>
Did we have a vote? I must have missed that.
> Declare yourself the victor. Buy everybody who VOTE VOTE VOTED for you
> a round of beers and cheers (don't forget the Peanut Brained Troll)
> and get a good nights sleep.
>
> I mean the only votes you didn't get were Moor's vote and mine ( and
> by extension McG's, Lord Grade's, and Michael Dann's, but why worry,
> you don't put much "stock" in them anyway).
>
> Here is a nice link back to the top of the thread ( so you can examine
> Moor's and my votes in light of the original title of the thread about
> "Last Minute")
What's the thread title got to do with it? I'm talking about your 100+ posts
concerning the non-existant decision you say occured pre-production that the
series was going to be exactly 17 episodes long all along.
>
> I'm done here.
You said that already.
Rick
Rick Davy
"Moor Larkin" <moor_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:048d9a80-9ddf-47ec...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
What a super post that is.
So that may have pushed the last minute back to some six months before
the last second..............
---------------
Which would confirm my "argument" that the decision for exactly 17 episodes
was NOT taken before production began then? Thanks Moor :-)
Rick
tommacfearsom
wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moor_lar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
Hello Rick
Nope, it just goes to show you are still "arguing" the wrong time
period in the wrong thread with the wrong person.
Moor just stated that the "last minute" (the original title of the
thread) was not in June-August as my factual Washington Post August
1967 quote from McG himself validated. Fairclough ( you know the guy
you told to me about) places the Last Days of Pompeii and "The Last
Minute Decision" of the thread title at the production period of TGWWD
sometime in late (very very) late Nov.-Dec. 1967.
Don't forget Rick you are arguing with McG (Troyer), Lord Grade, (Bio)
and Michael Dann (Chicago Tribune 1967) all in print or on video tape
( no Little Orphan Annie Decoder Ring needed). ;-)))
If you want to argue about preproduction Rick go start you own thread
with the proper thread title.
Why have I posted here again Rick at the risk of Peanut Brained Trolls
and "get Tomm out of town posts"? Why anything for you Rick, after all
you did say rescheduled and you did say "nearer the last minute"
rather than "last minute". You are just sooooooo close Rick. Keep up
the good work.
Be good.
roger
> Don't forget Rick you are arguing with McG (Troyer), Lord Grade, (Bio)
> and Michael Dann (Chicago Tribune 1967) all in print or on video tape
Rick has already pointed out that the above three items, the only quotes in
support of your claim, are flawed.
The rest of the evidence, further quotes from Patrick and David Tomblin and
others, who were there at the time, plus the first series of 13 contracts,
plus material from "students of the subject" (PMcG 1979) totally refute your
claim.
> ( no Little Orphan Annie Decoder Ring needed). ;-)))
That really bugs, doesn't it? You just can't comprehend how important it is
and how it undermines so much of your argument.
lewstringer
>
> Why have I posted here again Rick at the risk of Peanut Brained Trolls
>
It's always about peanuts with you isn't it?
Rick Davy
"tommacfearsom" <tommac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:617ea4b1-0af4-4260...@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moor_lar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:048d9a80-9ddf-47ec...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Hello Rick
--------------
Does anyone else remember when this group was a really great place? What a
shame for Prisoner fans worldwide that one person has single handedly
destroyed it. I almost wish Gordon was back :-(
Rick
Moor Larkin
> Does anyone else remember when this group was a really great place? What a
> shame for Prisoner fans worldwide that one person has single handedly
> destroyed it.
I'm sure I remember that being said about Gordon......... :-)))))))
>I almost wish Gordon was back :-(
>
> Rick
Almost..........Ah! Not quite so bad as before
then............ :-)))))))
The only person starting any interesting Threads here for months
(apart from the porno-merchants) is Tomm (and roger maybe, in
refutation mode)...... so claiming he has damaged a currently non-
existent fan resource seems a tad unfair of you old boy....... but
being unable to entirely and unambiguously to prove a point is
frustrating for everyone............ :0))
I have only recently spotted a quote from January 1967 in which it
says Michael Dann of CBS has purchased a package of *no less* than 17
episodes of a new show called The Prisoner, to star Patrick
McGoohan.......
It's looking less and less last minute the moor I look..........
Confused maybe and ambiguous, but that is as it should
be............... :-)
Ivor Jones
Rick Davy <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> typed, for some strange,
unexplained reason:
[snip]
: Does anyone else remember when this group was a really great place?
: What a shame for Prisoner fans worldwide that one person has single
: handedly destroyed it. I almost wish Gordon was back :-(
:
: Rick
Indeed. Well not quite ;-)
I had a similar problem on another group a while back, one person latched
on to me and lambasted me with every post I made, whether on or off topic.
He's still around but not, fortunately, as vociferous as he once was.
Ivor