5 Core Wiccan Beliefs
ren
Wicca believes that nature is divine and consists of feminine and
masculine forces that complement each other.
These natural forces are further expressed in the form of Spirit, Air,
Fire, Water and Earth.
Wiccans celebrate nature at the Equinoxes and Solstices of the year.
As daughters and sons of divine nature, Wiccans practice magick which
is attuning to natural cycles, turning ideas into reality in order to
live well.
Wiccans believe that what you give is what you get and should strive
to be at peace with others if possible. Wiccans do what they want with
other consenting adults as long as it does not originally harm
another. Self defense and mutual deterrence keep the peace.
aine
Those are not all 'core' beliefs of all Wiccans.
Not all believe, "Self defense and mutual deterrence keep the peace."
Not all, "Wiccans practice magick which is attuning to natural cycles,
Evergreen
> 5 Core Wiccan Beliefs
>
> Wicca believes that nature is divine and consists of feminine and
> masculine forces that complement each other.
Everything is natural and very, very little of it has anything
to do with the male/female dichotomy.
> These natural forces are further expressed in the form of Spirit, Air,
> Fire, Water and Earth.
That's just romantic drivel.
> Wiccans celebrate nature at the Equinoxes and Solstices of the year.
Are you sure they don't just believe they do?
>
> As daughters and sons of divine nature, Wiccans practice magick which
> is attuning to natural cycles,
Wiccans get their useless, theatrical ideas about what magick is
from the same sources that fantasy writers use. From scholars, not
magicians.
> turning ideas into reality in order to live well.
I have never seen that concept expressed by a Wiccan before, in
person or on the Internet or in a book.
It isn't a Wiccan belief.
> Wiccans believe that what you give is what you get and should strive
> to be at peace with others if possible. Wiccans do what they want with
> other consenting adults as long as it does not originally harm
> another. Self defense and mutual deterrence keep the peace.
A sleazy lawyer could have written that last paragraph.
Ren is a pathological liar. His words mean only that he felt
like posting them.
He has deluded himself into believing that he speaks for all Wiccans
and is a respected authority on the subject.
Sid
--
Sidney Lambe
Apprentice Magician
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
usenet4444 (at) gmail (dot) com
Lady Azure, Baroness O de North Pole
> 5 Core Wiccan Beliefs
>
> Wicca believes that nature is divine and consists of feminine and
> masculine forces that complement each other.
>
> These natural forces are further expressed in the form of Spirit, Air,
> Fire, Water and Earth.
>
> Wiccans celebrate nature at the Equinoxes and Solstices of the year.
>
> As daughters and sons of divine nature, Wiccans practice magick which
> is attuning to natural cycles, turning ideas into reality in order to
> live well.
>
> Wiccans believe that what you give is what you get and should strive
> to be at peace with others if possible.
Where do you stand when "It is NOT POSSIBLE".
When you have "Turned the Other Cheek" and not only did the sucker do it
again he brought friends to strike you to.
When no matter how hard you try to be civil you are but Meat to a "Lynch
Mob"!
The story tells what happens, they just wanna see it.
storm
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have to agree. The "mutual deterrence" is very contrary to any
Wiccan instruction I have received or given. "Mutual Love and
Respect" is what I was taught. It is all too easy to find a way to
retaliate. It is often a worthwhile challenge to mitigate.
Personally, I rank one's confrontational nature as inversely
proportional to one's adherence to "core" Wicca. I'm not talking
pacifism, but I am talking finding alternate answers. Just because it
is not easy to find those non-confrontational answers is no excuse for
not finding them. Not for those who should be considered skilled in
the Craft by any practical measure I have known.
As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not. The
label I have seen is "Celebratory Witches". But more often I have
seen those who can and do, but do so only on occasion. The principle
being that if it can be cone through mundane means, then that is how
you should do it. The universe has enough people mucking around with
it already. It doesn't really need yet one more limited viewpoint
trying to avert Fate or Misfortune yet again. ;-) I do consider it
a core belief that all Wiccans should be able to cast Magic as needed
and be properly trained to do so. But I then give each witch the
choice as to where they do or do not apply that knowledge.
-storm
I heard a bird sing in December, "It's closer to Spring than it was in
September."
storm
<laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
> ren wrote:
>
> > Wiccans believe that what you give is what you get and should strive
> > to be at peace with others if possible.
>
> Where do you stand when "It is NOT POSSIBLE".
Each witch has an individual stance on this. It is NOT part of a core
belief system one way or another. Some find it strange that a
religion could be comfortable refusing to take a stance, but that is
their problem,not ours.
> When you have "Turned the Other Cheek" and not only did the sucker do it
> again he brought friends to strike you to.
I have always considered turning the other cheek to be poor advice,
even for a pacifist. Removing the opportunity for a second strike
maks much more sense. How to remove the opportunity becomes an
interesting question. Even thermonuclear mutually assured destruction
is a way to do that. So is running away. Other options may be
available or created.
> When no matter how hard you try to be civil you are but Meat to a "Lynch
> Mob"!
To answer closer to your text style...
It it is words, then it is just words; say or don't say as the sprit
moves, knowing it does not matter.
If it is war, then it is war; do what needs to be done and do it hard,
knowing it matters absolutely.
> The story tells what happens, they just wanna see it.-
Such has always been true.
-storm
Evergreen
> On Dec 28, 7:35=A0pm, aine <aine_nicne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 28, 5:46=A0pm, ren <ren1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > 5 Core Wiccan Beliefs
>>
>> > Wicca believes that nature is divine and consists of
>> > feminine and masculine forces that complement each other.
>>
>> > These natural forces are further expressed in the form of
>> > Spirit, Air, Fire, Water and Earth.
>>
>> > Wiccans celebrate nature at the Equinoxes and Solstices of
>> > the year.
>>
>> > As daughters and sons of divine nature, Wiccans practice
>> > magick which is attuning to natural cycles, turning ideas
>> > into reality in order to live well.
>>
>> > Wiccans believe that what you give is what you get and
>> > should strive to be at peace with others if possible.
>> > Wiccans do what they want with other consenting adults as
>> > long as it does not originally harm another. Self defense
>> > and mutual deterrence keep the peace.
>>
>> Those are not all 'core' beliefs of all Wiccans. Not all
>> believe, "Self defense and mutual deterrence keep the peace."
>> Not all, "Wiccans practice magick which is attuning to natural
>> cycles, turning ideas into reality in order to =A0live well."-
>> Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I have to agree. The "mutual deterrence" is very contrary
> to any Wiccan instruction I have received or given. "Mutual
> Love and Respect" is what I was taught. It is all too easy to
> find a way to retaliate. It is often a worthwhile challenge
> to mitigate. Personally, I rank one's confrontational nature
> as inversely proportional to one's adherence to "core"
> Wicca. I'm not talking pacifism, but I am talking finding
> alternate answers. Just because it is not easy to find those
> non-confrontational answers is no excuse for not finding them.
> Not for those who should be considered skilled in the Craft by
> any practical measure I have known.
>
> As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not.
No. None of them practice magick. They practice theatrical
woo-woo what some scholars/bookworms told them was real magick.
Fantasy writers get their supposed information on magick
from the very same sources.
Part of being a 'neo-pagan' is that you tacitly agree to
pretend to believe your fellow 'neo-pagans' are real magicians
so that they will pretend that you are.
> The label I have seen is "Celebratory Witches". But more often
> I have seen those who can and do, but do so only on occasion.
Another claim that will never be substantiated. Talk is cheap.
Don't expect "storm" to identify the supposed magicians who
supposedly perform magick. He won't even identify himself.
> The principle being that if it can be cone through mundane
> means, then that is how you should do it. The universe has
> enough people mucking around with it already. It doesn't really
> need yet one more limited viewpoint trying to avert Fate or
> Misfortune yet again. ;-) I do consider it a core belief that
> all Wiccans should be able to cast Magic as needed and be
> properly trained to do so. But I then give each witch the
> choice as to where they do or do not apply that knowledge.
All they can do with their 'knowledge' is play the part of
a witch in a C fantasy film.
> -storm
aine
> On alt.religion.wicca, storm <st...@frii.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 28, 7:35=A0pm, aine <aine_nicne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not.
>
> No. None of them practice magick. They practice theatrical
> woo-woo what some scholars/bookworms told them was real magick.
> Fantasy writers get their supposed information on magick
> from the very same sources.
>
> Part of being a 'neo-pagan' is that you tacitly agree to
> pretend to believe your fellow 'neo-pagans' are real magicians
> so that they will pretend that you are.
>
I am not in total agreement since there are many people who were born
with the abilities to create magickal changes, vision, have ESP and
all the other esoteric gifts we give names to.
Some choose their religion to be Wicca, some are Christian ( Joan of
Arc comes to mind), some are Buddhist and on and on.
I believe like Storm noted here, that we that have these abilities
need to be responsible in how, when or where we use them and if we
even should.
On the other hand as you note, many are "theatrical woo-woo." Many
know they are fake but for the most part I think many believe they
have the power to "learn" magic(k) and therefore "true" Witches (or
whatever name they choose). I have come to personally see people of
this kind able to create some changes akin to telling yourself you
have a headache long and hard enough you get one. Much of what magic
(k) occurs for these kind come down to "odds". 50/50 is not hard to
get a win on enough to make them believe they did it themselves.
I cannot help but think this is why it is so popular to teach that
with the magic(k) one must work at it to make it happen. True magick
would not need that help..would it .(Statement)
Seems to me, this teaching and the desire of many to be a 'Witch'
creates a domino affect that leads to many small 'odds' wins into the
belief they really are the Great and Powerful Oz when they are not.
Evergreen
> On Dec 29, 11:30=A0am, Evergreen <sidneyla...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> On alt.religion.wicca, storm <st...@frii.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 28, 7:35=3DA0pm, aine <aine_nicne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> > As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not.
>>
>> No. None of them practice magick. They practice theatrical
>> woo-woo what some scholars/bookworms told them was real magick.
>> Fantasy writers get their supposed information on magick
>> from the very same sources.
>>
>> Part of being a 'neo-pagan' is that you tacitly agree to
>> pretend to believe your fellow 'neo-pagans' are real magicians
>> so that they will pretend that you are.
>>
>
>
> I am not in total agreement since there are many people who were born
> with the abilities to create magickal changes, vision, have ESP and
> all the other esoteric gifts we give names to.
Such things have nothing to do with Wicca or any of the other
'neo-pagan' psuedo-religions, but it's a good point.
I have never encountered a 'neo-pagan' with these abilities and
bet you can't produce one. The real thing does not usually hang
out with fakes.
> Some choose their religion to be Wicca, some are Christian ( Joan of
> Arc comes to mind), some are Buddhist and on and on.
Again: Show us a Wiccan who can do anything but play the role.
Talk is cheap.
I've been hearing related claims from 'neo-pagan' for years, and
never seen one substantiated.
It's just part of their role-playing. Myth making.
The psuedo-magickal concepts of the 'neo-pagans' severely retard
the development of real magickal skills.
> I believe like Storm noted here, that we that have these abilities
> need to be responsible in how, when or where we use them and if we
> even should.
The abilities are latent. They can't be developed by telling lies
on the Usenet or dressing up like you think real witches used to
or parroting psuedo-esoteric woo-woo picked up from people who
couldn't make a bird fly with magick.
> On the other hand as you note, many are "theatrical woo-woo."
> Many know they are fake but for the most part I think many
> believe they have the power to "learn" magic(k) and therefore
> "true" Witches (or whatever name they choose).
They are right. The potential is there. Unfortunately, their
ideas of what a "true witch" is are nonsense.
> I have come to personally see people of
> this kind able to create some changes akin to telling yourself you
> have a headache long and hard enough you get one. Much of what magic
> (k) occurs for these kind come down to "odds". 50/50 is not hard to
> get a win on enough to make them believe they did it themselves.
Basic magick can be accomplished by anyone. (In fact, magick is
the only thing that accomplishes anything.) But you would be
better off spending 5 minutes learning creative visualization
than spending years studying a 'neo-pagan' psuedo-religion.
>
> I cannot help but think this is why it is so popular to teach that
> with the magic(k) one must work at it to make it happen. True magick
> would not need that help..would it .(Statement)
It takes very hard work, solitary and disciplined, to learn real
magick.
Learning real magick is actually evolving. Magick is how reality
works.
The 'neo-pagan' concepts of what magick is and how it works
are garbage.
> Seems to me, this teaching and the desire of many to be a 'Witch'
> creates a domino affect that leads to many small 'odds' wins into the
> belief they really are the Great and Powerful Oz when they are not.
It sure does.
storm
>
> On the other hand as you note, many are "theatrical woo-woo." Many
> know they are fake but for the most part I think many believe they
> have the power to "learn" magic(k) and therefore "true" Witches (or
> whatever name they choose). I have come to personally see people of
> this kind able to create some changes akin to telling yourself you
> have a headache long and hard enough you get one. Much of what magic
> (k) occurs for these kind come down to "odds". 50/50 is not hard to
> get a win on enough to make them believe they did it themselves.
Oh, yes, definitely. I have shamelessly used that particular point to
get people to do for themselves what they want me to do for them by
magic. It is manipulation, and some would consider it ethically
dubious, but if it gets someone up off their ass and doing what they
need to do, then it is needed. On a few occasions, I have actually
been able to get people to the follow up discussion, "You know, you
didn't need me for this after all, did you?" Within some of those
conversations comes that particular dawning-of-the-light expression on
their faces as they realize both what I did and how powerful they are
in themselves, whether magicaly or not.
I find a difference between you and I in these covnerations is you
tend to work with or discuss those with deep talents that need
guidance and developing (maybe, depending on the person). I tend to
look at the humbler side of regular people with regular magic. I
contend that both are miracles of this world and both are worth
nurturing and support, but grant you that there is a whole lot of
difference in the two general cases. A whole lot of difference, which
cannot be ignored without consequence.
>
> I cannot help but think this is why it is so popular to teach that
> with the magic(k) one must work at it to make it happen. True magick
> would not need that help..would it .(Statement)
Interesting thought. At the levels you discuss, it is not so much
about making it happen but in making it happen as intended. That can
be harder to learn for advanced students then learning to do anything
at all is for beginners or the unaware.
>
> Seems to me, this teaching and the desire of many to be a 'Witch'
> creates a domino affect that leads to many small 'odds' wins into the
> belief they really are the Great and Powerful Oz when they are not.
Many Wiccans fail to note that one of the secret names of the Goddess
is "Coincidence", and take credit for streetlights changing when
street lights change all the time. :-) It is wonderful to realize
you are a child of the God and Goddess and all Magical and Divine and
everything, but there is no sense getting all big headed about it, is
there. (Statement)
-storm
Evergreen
>
>>
>> On the other hand as you note, many are "theatrical woo-woo." =A0Many
>> know they are fake but for the most part I think many believe they
>> have the power to "learn" magic(k) and therefore "true" Witches (or
>> whatever name they choose). I have come to personally see people of
>> this kind able to create some changes akin to telling yourself you
>> have a headache long and hard enough you get one. Much of what magic
>> (k) occurs for these kind come down to "odds". 50/50 is not hard to
>> get a win on enough to make them believe they did it themselves.
>
> Oh, yes, definitely. I have shamelessly used that particular point to
> get people to do for themselves
> what they want me to do for them by magic.
I knew he'd be implying that he could do what 'neo-pagans' call
magick somewhere in here. It never fails.
Notice how vague the claim is, so that he can deny that that's
what he was saying.
They have to do it this way because they don't want you asking
for any demonstrations.
[delete]
aine
> On Dec 29, 2:23 pm, aine <aine_nicne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On the other hand as you note, many are "theatrical woo-woo." Many
> > know they are fake but for the most part I think many believe they
> > have the power to "learn" magic(k) and therefore "true" Witches (or
> > whatever name they choose). I have come to personally see people of
> > this kind able to create some changes akin to telling yourself you
> > have a headache long and hard enough you get one. Much of what magic
> > (k) occurs for these kind come down to "odds". 50/50 is not hard to
> > get a win on enough to make them believe they did it themselves.
>
> Oh, yes, definitely. I have shamelessly used that particular point to
> get people to do for themselves what they want me to do for them by
> magic. It is manipulation, and some would consider it ethically
> dubious, but if it gets someone up off their ass and doing what they
> need to do, then it is needed. On a few occasions, I have actually
> been able to get people to the follow up discussion, "You know, you
> didn't need me for this after all, did you?" Within some of those
> conversations comes that particular dawning-of-the-light expression on
> their faces as they realize both what I did and how powerful they are
At least you stick around to discuss it. One author I read, not sure
but think it was Buttland (gosh sorry I am lithping..must be the
champagne).. use to tell people who asked him to do spells for them,
that he would or did do them. hehehe snicker.. what a guy..gypsy,
witch..(gag) Pict..
>
> I find a difference between you and I in these conversations is you
> tend to work with or discuss those with deep talents that need
> guidance and developing (maybe, depending on the person). I tend to
> look at the humbler side of regular people with regular magic. I
> contend that both are miracles of this world and both are worth
> nurturing and support, but grant you that there is a whole lot of
> difference in the two general cases. A whole lot of difference, which
> cannot be ignored without consequence.<
(Breathes air in through clenched teeth) wheee..ell My original intent
got twisted a bit when I posted. I am not all that big on thinking
magic can be taught to people who are not born with the ability PAST
or much further then the piffle or 'odds' magic.
So, what I meant was because 'anyone' has the ability to chant or do a
spell AND because odds are 50/50 it will work for them AND omens/signs
can be found by anyone and made into something that would validate the
magic they did...that does not make 'regular' people magickals. It
means they are regular people who pay more attention to the normal
everyday energy fluxes because they took an interest somewhere in the
Occult.
However, I also feel these people have a right to be aware and work
within the elements. It is great to see eyes opened and groups of
people who believe that there are powers that are human rights, if we
would only see past Dogma of Churches. Yes, it is noble to have the
patience for that and to mentor groups, covens, groves for some.
I do not see that as humble, I see it as a human right to use more of
our brains and instincts we were born with that have nothing to do
with magic. I will not work with them anymore because a huge chunk of
those lots of 'regular' people as you call it or the least humble in
my eyes. They have no respect or regard for the changes they make in
the Universal Grid. I find most of them very damaging and most refuse
to take responsibility for what they do. They also are the lot that
never see past the very act or spell they are trying to accomplish.
The large magickal guffaw is much easier to correct then a bunch of
mice who chew wires from one ley line to another.
IMHO, if you find someone or a few that are able to learn past odds
magic or focused magic..you obviously have found a person born with
abilities or I should say, they found you.
> > I cannot help but think this is why it is so popular to teach that
> > with the magic(k) one must work at it to make it happen. True magick
> > would not need that help..would it .(Statement)
>
> Interesting thought. At the levels you discuss, it is not so much
> about making it happen but in making it happen as intended. That can
> be harder to learn for advanced students then learning to do anything
> at all is for beginners or the unaware.<
See, that is a major problem with me. Mainly Wiccans and Ceremonials
believe there is so much teaching involved to learn magic but there
really is not. Magic for those born is like breathing. The learning
part is the ethics or morals involved. The truth of the magick.
Meaning..do or don't but if you do and you did not care about how it
may short out other people's or the earths wiring..you and others will
pay for it. Then others become victims and you pay even more for it.
Also, the more we use it the correct way, the more doors are opened
for us. Not so much magically as spiritually or information about the
"mystical' side of things.
> > Seems to me, this teaching and the desire of many to be a 'Witch'
> > creates a domino affect that leads to many small 'odds' wins into the
> > belief they really are the Great and Powerful Oz when they are not.
>
> Many Wiccans fail to note that one of the secret names of the Goddess
> is "Coincidence", and take credit for streetlights changing when
> street lights change all the time. :-) <
Ya, that's dumb. More then just Wiccans do that! ;) Good example
though.. you changed a light..right on..Now did you change it for fun
or your benefit and not think about the cars that are going to run the
red light when they saw a green? Did you consider the other people?
There lies the learning.
> It is wonderful to realize
> you are a child of the God and Goddess and all Magical and Divine and
> everything, but there is no sense getting all big headed about it, is
> there. (Statement)<
Those of us born, see ourselves as a race of people. I suppose some
insecure people wish they were another race but, most of us just
accept what we are without getting a big head. We have had these
abilities for our whole lives in some form. Like a child turning adult
they increase with age or we understand them better. They are normal
to us. There is a huge race of us in this world, so, I suppose I will
never fully understand people who think they can 'learn' magick like
playing a piano.
Those that need to learn it, then I agree with a certain amount Sid
says..that non power born magickals will never be able to prove much
magick. Then again, he says it about any magickals. I differ because
those of us who were born and 'Just Do It' mostly work among ourselves
and tend to cast off those not like us. We really do not need to prove
to anyone or care that they do not believe us. Magick is generally
used for ourselves, family and/or sister/brother kin. That kin is
usually extremely small and very select. Non power Born's are a
dangerous and irresponsible just alone for the fact "No true Way"/"No
One Way"..No rules. Fart Magick. ;)
(Disclaimer and all..my views)
Happy New Year!
ren
> I have to agree. The "mutual deterrence" is very contrary to any
> Wiccan instruction I have received or given. "Mutual Love and
> Respect" is what I was taught. It is all too easy to find a way to
> retaliate. It is often a worthwhile challenge to mitigate.
Retaliation is not mutual deterrence.
> Personally, I rank one's confrontational nature as inversely
> proportional to one's adherence to "core" Wicca. I'm not talking
> pacifism, but I am talking finding alternate answers. Just because it
If you believe that Wicca is not a pacifist religion, then you must
agree that there is a certain situation in which violence is
acceptable. I say it is in cases of self-defense.
> As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not. The
Wicca is a magickal religion. Observing Rites of Passage is the
practice of magick. Observing Solstices and Equinox and dancing
clockwise and counter-clockwise is practicing magick.
>
> -storm
This is what aine is talking about, storm. Wicca needs a firm set of
beliefs if it is to thrive. Wicca is not an anything-goes religion.
aine
No shit..I have been up 6 hours with a distress call from an
aquaintence whose best friend just found all these talismans, spells
etc..to keep the couple together forever. Cripes sake.. yes Wiccan.
Damn it all. Rules yes..but I say some really big Wiccans dressed in
black and white with a very large hand whooping ruler. I am not saying
Trads and ceremonials never cross the line but this is not the first
time. Not even the fourth or fifth time someone has run to me for
this. Always Wiccan related. You need to teach your kind rape of free
will is against the law..I am damn tired of fixing lives from the
messes.
ren
> this. Always Wiccan related. You need to teach your kind
I don't know any bad Wiccans. I'm sure there are some.
Evergreen
>
>> this. Always Wiccan related. You need to teach your kind
>
> I don't know any bad Wiccans. I'm sure there are some.
Go look in the mirror.
You are one one of most vile human beings I have ever
encountered.
That's why they threw you off WiccanTogether.com
Lady Azure, Baroness o De North Pole
No, just misguided whom the Hunters take prey over others because of.
�
storm
>
> - Show quoted text -
Aine, you have my empathy and shared experience. People mess things
up with the very best of intentions. Those whom I teach get exactly
the lesson you specify. Those who don't walk away fast enough
sometimes get the lecture as well. Rape is rape; coercion is
coercion. Mincing words about it and claiming good intentions is
absolutely no excuse. The first danger sign is when someone claims to
know what is better for someone else than that someone else does.
That is the path to temptation to interfere. The second danger sign
is greed, "I want it now!".
I do not agree that a set of Wiccan dogma laid out for all Wiccans
would be any help to your situation. People have all sorts of dogma
and laws and advice thrown at them and still they act like self-
serving idiots at times. A strictly defined religion is no substitute
for common sense and thinking twice about consequences. In fact, I
think it can be argued that the stricter and more domatic the religion
the easier it is for the individual to abandon common sense and
personal responsibility in favor of (often misinterpreted) authority.
I have seen as many people screwed up by mainstream religious fervor
and interference as by Wiccan magic. It is stupid either way.
-storm
storm
> On Dec 30 2009, 3:38 am, storm <st...@frii.com> wrote:
>
> > I have to agree. The "mutual deterrence" is very contrary to any
> > Wiccan instruction I have received or given. "Mutual Love and
> > Respect" is what I was taught. It is all too easy to find a way to
> > retaliate. It is often a worthwhile challenge to mitigate.
>
> Retaliation is not mutual deterrence.
>
> > Personally, I rank one's confrontational nature as inversely
> > proportional to one's adherence to "core" Wicca. I'm not talking
> > pacifism, but I am talking finding alternate answers. Just because it
>
> If you believe that Wicca is not a pacifist religion, then you must
> agree that there is a certain situation in which violence is
> acceptable. I say it is in cases of self-defense.
No, there is no I "must" agree. Wicca as a religion leaves that open
to the individual. As for me as an individual, you will find fewer
other than Quakers more pacifist than I. But that is a personal
decision, not a Wiccan one. You are free to decide as you will. I
refuse to make that decision for others. And just to fend off other
attempts before they happen, I have no intention of defending my
personal choice for pacifism or discussing worst case scenarios about
harm to my loved ones or resisting repressive regimes or whatever. I
have been through it before often enough to realize that there is no
practical benefit from those discussions and all too soon, there is
name calling and other such ugliness.
I only wish to point out that your starting premise and your
conclusion are not as directly related as you seem to think.
>
> > As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not. The
>
> Wicca is a magickal religion. Observing Rites of Passage is the
> practice of magick. Observing Solstices and Equinox and dancing
> clockwise and counter-clockwise is practicing magick.
You get no argument from me. All acts are magical acts. Each breath
is a miracle, each step taken a spell in the continuing Grand Work.
We walk in the world of spirit even as we walk through the land of the
material, and there is only an illusion of separation between the two
acts. And then, when we concentrate even more fully on what we do,
that becomes ritual as well as magic.
Or at least, so say I. It is not a point I have seen agreed upon by a
lot of Wiccans although, when pressed, they have said they see where I
am coming from with it. There are some Ceremonial Magician types who
have agreed with the point to at least some extent. Interesting.
>
>
>
> > -storm
>
> This is what aine is talking about, storm. Wicca needs a firm set of
> beliefs if it is to thrive. Wicca is not an anything-goes religion.
You might be surprised how much I disagree with the first sentence and
agree with the second. But let's just put it this way. Neither you,
nor anyone else on this planet, has religious authority over me.
Ever. (Conversely, I claim no authority over others, even students.)
If we as a religion cannot make that statement work for us, then
indeed there is little hope for Wicca to last the centuries.
-storm
Evergreen
[delete]
> I have seen as many people screwed up by mainstream religious
> fervor and interference as by Wiccan magic. It is stupid either
> way.
>
> -storm
>
The only thing about Wiccan 'magic' that screws people up is
discovering that it is utterly worthless.
[delete]
ren
> You might be surprised how much I disagree with the first sentence and
> agree with the second. But let's just put it this way. Neither you,
> nor anyone else on this planet, has religious authority over me.
> Ever. (Conversely, I claim no authority over others, even students.)
> If we as a religion cannot make that statement work for us, then
> indeed there is little hope for Wicca to last the centuries.
>
> -storm
You will respect my authoritaeeeee! Uh, o.k. well, You're right.
Nobody has religious authority over you.
aine
> On Jan 2, 4:32 am, ren <ren1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If you believe that Wicca is not a pacifist religion, then you must
> > agree that there is a certain situation in which violence is
> > acceptable. I say it is in cases of self-defense.
>
> No, there is no I "must" agree. Wicca as a religion leaves that open
> to the individual. As for me as an individual, you will find fewer
> other than Quakers more pacifist than I. But that is a personal
> decision, not a Wiccan one. You are free to decide as you will. I
> refuse to make that decision for others. And just to fend off other
> attempts before they happen, I have no intention of defending my
> personal choice for pacifism or discussing worst case scenarios about
> harm to my loved ones or resisting repressive regimes or whatever. I
> have been through it before often enough to realize that there is no
> practical benefit from those discussions and all too soon, there is
> name calling and other such ugliness.<
I can agree religion is a concept of ones "own" belief structure/
system. No one has a right to tell anyone what those are. It is really
too bad that morals/ethics are tied in anymore to "religion"
One problem, for lack of a word in my brain that would fit better, is
that when a Rede is put in place, it is seen as" the religion."
"Harm None"
When the context is vague, lower behavior people will choose the
easiest path. The path of least resistance. The primal nature of un-
learned spiritual people and in that vagueness will easily come up
with a "valid" excuse in their brains or those unenlighted they hang
with, to do the things they did. "Harm", as we can see by the
moderated/ren thread, is different to everyone.
I am not sure when all the ethics/morals/behavior/mannerisms
ect..started getting thrown into the religion pot. Maybe it was
Christianity. Seems to me, everything I have read about the past, they
were seperate. Like the Triads. (Noinden, you there?)
aine
>
>
>
> > > As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. Many do not. The
>
> > Wicca is a magickal religion. Observing Rites of Passage is the
> > practice of magick. Observing Solstices and Equinox and dancing
> > clockwise and counter-clockwise is practicing magick.
>
> You get no argument from me. All acts are magical acts. Each breath
> is a miracle, each step taken a spell in the continuing Grand Work.
> We walk in the world of spirit even as we walk through the land of the
> material, and there is only an illusion of separation between the two
> acts. And then, when we concentrate even more fully on what we do,
> that becomes ritual as well as magic.
>
See? Right there.. Magick is made..mundane as well as defining the act
of a ceremony/ritual/spell. Vague or all encompassing.
You can use "life is magickal," as a descript all you want but it is
very confusing to people to understand life is a divine gift verses "I
breathe therefore I am magickal".
You lay the groundwork for 'any' Tom, Dick or Harry to have the right
to practice magick just because they breathe. That is like saying to
your 12 year old, "whelp. you have been using your hotwheels race
cars, driving the ATV on the property..screw it son..go take the car
out on the road". You don't need no stinkin instruction, rules of the
road or a license.
Bah..seperate them!
aine
> On Jan 4, 7:42 am, storm <st...@frii.com> wrote:
>
> Bah..seperate them!<
Please. (blush..how rude!)
Evergreen
> On Jan 4, 7:42=A0am, storm <st...@frii.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 2, 4:32=A0am, ren <ren1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > > As for the idea that all Wiccans practice Magic. =A0Many
>> > > do not. =A0T=
>
> he
>
>> > Wicca is a magickal religion. Observing Rites of Passage
>> > is the practice of magick. Observing Solstices and Equinox
>> > and dancing clockwise and counter-clockwise is practicing
>> > magick.
>>
>> You get no argument from me. =A0All acts are magical acts.
>> =A0Each breath is a miracle, each step taken a spell in the
>> continuing Grand Work. We walk in the world of spirit even as
>> we walk through the land of the material, and there is only an
>> illusion of separation between the two acts. =A0And then, when
>> we concentrate even more fully on what we do, that becomes
>> ritual as well as magic.
>
>
> See? Right there.. Magick is made..mundane as well as defining
> the act of a ceremony/ritual/spell. Vague or all encompassing.
>
> You can use "life is magickal," as a descript all you want but
> it is very confusing to people to understand life is a divine
> gift verses "I breathe therefore I am magickal".
>
> You lay the groundwork for 'any' Tom, Dick or Harry to have
> the right to practice magick just because they breathe.
> That is like saying to your 12 year old, "whelp. you have
> been using your hotwheels race cars, driving the ATV on the
> property..screw it son..go take the car out on the road". You
> don't need no stinkin instruction, rules of the road or a
> license.
>
> Bah..seperate them!
Still trying to convince people that the theatrical woo-woo
you and your ilk call 'magick' works outside of fantasy
novels, I see.
I've been here for a year and never seen a single scrap
of evidence that you or ren or storm can do anything but
play the role while you hide behind the Internet.
Any kid with their mommy's computer can do what you
do.
Here's the Mighty Mage storm attacking me with 'magick':
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/4fe9b7e398185410
Lady Azure, Baroness o De North Pole
NOPE!
But, Natural LAW, has ABSOLUTE CONTROL.
�
aine
>
> Aine, you have my empathy and shared experience.<
Thank-you and I am sorry I missed this earlier getting involved in
your other post here.
> People mess things
> up with the very best of intentions. <
The best intention ones or newbie boo boo's I tend to be more tolerant
then coming in with claws and fangs venting.
'Best Intentions' in this case were from someone who well knew better.
Deliberate and malicious.
>Those whom I teach get exactly
> the lesson you specify. Those who don't walk away fast enough
> sometimes get the lecture as well. Rape is rape; coercion is
> coercion. Mincing words about it and claiming good intentions is
> absolutely no excuse. The first danger sign is when someone claims to
> know what is better for someone else than that someone else does.
> That is the path to temptation to interfere. The second danger sign
> is greed, "I want it now!".<
Exactly. Especially the first since it goes hand in hand with the
control tactics. I think the hardest ones to deal with are
relationships were they live with each other, one grows apart and
tries to leave. If the rejected one happens to be a Witch..Gods..well
you know. Rejection, pain, anger whoa..makes for an explosive amount
of intent and energy magickally making that partner to stay. Messed
up.
The gal is a non magickal. It scared her horribly.
All is calmer tonight. We did some things.
The night before this crisis came, I meditated and stated that all was
going very smooth and well for me and mine. I felt in a good place as
to where I wanted to add to my practice.
I have comfortably combined the Celtic, Egyptian aspects, Sumerian
etc WITH The Path of the Blue Rose (Mary/Yeshua), knights Templar
study which has led into the gnostic path. How? I do not know. Where
it caused Chaos before it runs like a well oiled machine for me. No
Archangels strangling Faeries, No Jesus calling me Christian..;)
I felt good in continuing my studies and not involving with a group or
the community right now. Told you before I was a Priestess for the
Gods and not students. That was my choice, didnt want the hassles.
Feel Strong. I would not wish swine flu on anyone but the 2-3 weeks
for me was a vacation I had not had in 30 years. I never got deathly
ill, never had to go to the Doctor. I was not doing jigs but meds for
the cough and such had me comfortable. I was, however, ordered to bed.
My kids each had it and so we knew it Swine. I was well waited on
24/7. My kids did everything. I was pampered and I slept. It gave me a
great journey into myself.
So, what do I do that night? I stated I was ready to move forward. I
asked where I could be of most help. Silly silly.
Crisis came, dealt with and I have two students now. lol! I fight
this part every time. I give. Im gonna go with the flow. Both are open
minded and like me, the wind has called their names a few times. The
finding of the spell created a good time to explain our ways and erase
the fear factor. Fear factor gone, their lifeling curiousity, drawn to
the moon energy, spirits etc.. became excitement and what felt right
to them.
Good timing. Knew it was coming down the road somewhere.. My, funny
how things work.uh-hem
> I do not agree that a set of Wiccan dogma laid out for all Wiccans
> would be any help to your situation. People have all sorts of dogma
> and laws and advice thrown at them and still they act like self-
> serving idiots at times. A strictly defined religion is no substitute
> for common sense and thinking twice about consequences. In fact, I
> think it can be argued that the stricter and more domatic the religion
> the easier it is for the individual to abandon common sense and
> personal responsibility in favor of (often misinterpreted) authority.
> I have seen as many people screwed up by mainstream religious fervor
> and interference as by Wiccan magic. It is stupid either way.
Agreed and I think I covered alot of this in the other about how it
would help not to be so vague or keep ethics to human code rather then
religious.
ren
Stada Apollonius Tyana.
Ieya, Ieya, Ieya, Ieya.
Evergreen
> Stada Apollonius Tyana.
Well, I guess they aren't secret anymore <snicker>.
>
> Ieya, Ieya, Ieya, Ieya.
Don't forget to wave your Official Harry Potter Magic Wand
three times when you say that.
storm
>
> So, what do I do that night? I stated I was ready to move forward. I
> asked where I could be of most help. Silly silly.
Oh dear! What a terribly silly thing to do! That's leaving yourself
wide open! Then again, it is what some of us need to do in order to
be who we are. What's really silly (from personal and similar
experience) is saying it again. And again... Sometimes I wonder if
it is being "responsible" or "just plain masochistic". :-)
>
> Crisis came, dealt with and I have two students now. lol! I fight
> this part every time. I give. Im gonna go with the flow. Both are open
> minded and like me, the wind has called their names a few times. The
> finding of the spell created a good time to explain our ways and erase
> the fear factor. Fear factor gone, their lifeling curiousity, drawn to
> the moon energy, spirits etc.. became excitement and what felt right
> to them.
>
> Good timing. Knew it was coming down the road somewhere.. My, funny
> how things work.uh-hem
>
Hilarious. And still some people wonder why I sometimes stress the
clown nature of the Universe At Large.
Good luck, although I feel in your case that luck has less to do with
things than skill. Your students are the ones who are lucky, lucky to
have found you when you were ready to be found.
-storm
storm
Whoops! Gravity works! Thud.
-storm
storm
Repeat after me:
"I will not repeat"
"What others say"
"Just because"
"They tell me to."
Try sneaking that one into an initiation oath or something. Got me an
earful afterwards, even though it was perfect for the initiate in
question. Even though the HPS laughed as well.
-storm
ren
> Repeat after me:
>
> "I will not repeat"
> "What others say"
> "Just because"
> "They tell me to."
>
> Try sneaking that one into an initiation oath or something. Got me an
> earful afterwards, even though it was perfect for the initiate in
> question. Even though the HPS laughed as well.
>
> -storm
he, he, he.
aine
Please do. I again have post it notes stuck to my head from all this
research and falling asleep at my computer.
aine
> On Jan 5, 2:49 am, aine <aine_nicne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > So, what do I do that night? I stated I was ready to move forward. I
> > asked where I could be of most help. Silly silly.
>
> Oh dear! What a terribly silly thing to do! That's leaving yourself
> wide open! Then again, it is what some of us need to do in order to
> be who we are. What's really silly (from personal and similar
> experience) is saying it again. And again... Sometimes I wonder if
> it is being "responsible" or "just plain masochistic". :-)
>
Masochistically responsible? Sounds much more superhuman. Ah Storm,
it is in your blood and most likely your soul which means you have a
hell of a busy "lives" ahead of you.
I usually am very specific which tends to give me outside of my
specifics but still within a compromised range. I do not know what got
into me to phrase it in that manner. Possibly because in closing I
stated I was in their hands with full trust.
> > Crisis came, dealt with and I have two students now. lol! I fight
> > this part every time. I give. Im gonna go with the flow. Both are open
> > minded and like me, the wind has called their names a few times. The
> > finding of the spell created a good time to explain our ways and erase
> > the fear factor. Fear factor gone, their lifeling curiousity, drawn to
> > the moon energy, spirits etc.. became excitement and what felt right
> > to them.
>
> > Good timing. Knew it was coming down the road somewhere.. My, funny
> > how things work.uh-hem
>
> Hilarious. And still some people wonder why I sometimes stress the
> clown nature of the Universe At Large.<
I hate clowns. :P
>
> Good luck, although I feel in your case that luck has less to do with
> things than skill. Your students are the ones who are lucky, lucky to
> have found you when you were ready to be found.
Thank-you and I do appreciate you saying so. The numbers seem to be
growing. "I have a friend, She knows this guy who would love to..who
knows this girl.."
Not sure how many to bring in. The distance from the ones in Seattle
area is 1 to 2 hours. Thinking skype may be the answer to alot of it.
I have a couple months before anything needs to be too organized. With
the brand new, open minded but never involved before people..I ask
that they spend at least that amount of time doing pro/con meditaion
to make sure they are comfortable involving. They may not be hard core
Christians and they may be open minded but in the dark of the night
are they going to get nervous and confess their sins to God?
That is not a problem for me if it turns out it is not right for them
but I do not want to see them get post trauma.
I usually start out asking them to read about the history of religion
and how pagan it really is. How magickal practice relates to shamanism/
healing. The simple basics of magickal propertie of herbs.
Point out the natural everyday human things people accept, like
knowing who is calling, dreams that came true. Very slow..very slow.
I even suggest watching movies if they are not readers. Keeping in
mind the Hollywood drama.
Though not Wiccan based, I will not teach Witchcraft on the level
without Deity. I make sure they know my background and belief
structure to see if that is comfortable for them..soo..long process
ahead.
I do always suggest reading Cunningham though. His energy to me has
always sit right. He reads very warm and simple to follow. He gives
great basic info even if one is not Wiccan.
I tell them I am not opposed to Wicca practice if that is what they
lean to. Have my own ways of incorporating/teaching/guiding if it is
important to them to be with me. I have a friend in that dept if I get
stuck, I am sure may help me out. I think, lol (puppy eyes) and also
one of the old mods from your part of town arwm) is in the area close
by as well for different views.
Lady Azure, Baroness o De North Pole
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!11
�
�
�
Lady Azure, Baroness o De North Pole
Yep, except for the Tribes of Seraphis.
�